Black Spirituality Religion : A Question for Muslims with Wandering Eyes...

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Ralfa'il, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I'm a Muslim because I accept that the Koran is the divine revelation of almighty God to His last prophet Muhammad.

    I used to be a Christian but after reading the entire bible...I left the Church first, then Christianity all together.

    I studied a multitude of religious material but the Koran was the book that made the most sense to me and contained the least amount of mis-understandings/contradictions.




    I'm the last brutha to promote that "orthodox" traditionalist type of Islam that has kept the Muslim world in a state of disorder, fuedalism, and back-wardness for the last 500 years or so years.

    I wish for the return of the Golden Age of Islam in which the black Moors ruled the Muslim world.

    I only hold the Koran as the standard of Islam and see the Hadith as a collection of stories and narrations...some true...some false..that aren't necessary for the practice of our religion.

    When I stop believing this, I will stop calling myself a Muslim.



    But my question is...

    Why do so many who no longer believe this continue to call themelves Muslim, take on Arabic names, and use Muslim jargon?



    If you don't believe that Muhammad was the last prophet or that the Koran came from God...

    If you believe that most of Islam is a fraud and most of it's literature and rituals are copied from earlier pagan sources and religions.....

    I have no problem with you.
    I would disagree wholeheartedly, but I'd still respect you and your opinion.


    But why in your disbelief do you continue to call yourself a MUSLIM?

    I'm truly asking this out of sincerity with absolutely no malice in my heart and no ulterior motives.

    Why even claim a religion that you don't really believe in?

    Why not just say like I used to....."I believe all religions contain a little truth but at this point I can't trust any"...and move on?
     
  2. Pharaoh Jahil

    Pharaoh Jahil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Islam,



    Brother I take it that you read a few of my post which I can see is related to the questions of your thread. (laughs)..


    Let me just say that I do not subcribe to what is considered "orthodox". I'm a student of Noble Drew Ali, Master Fard Muhammed, The Hon. Elijah Muhammed and Clarence X13. I'm also more intune with the teachings of Sufi Islam.

    So maybe my interpratation of what you percieve as "True Islam" is different from yours. One thing that we must not do is over look any logic and the possibilities of HOW the Holy Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed.

    Brother over stand that Islam was with us before Prophet Mohammed.

    Submission to the will of Allah didn't start 1600 years ago.

    This concept has been with the Ancients for eons.

    Peace.......
     
  3. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    I could be wrong, but it appears that, based on many of his statements/questions to me in other threads, that this set of statements is mostly directed towards me.

    SALAAM RALFA'IL:



    That's what makes you Muslim? Not me...

    I agree here; it does have the "least" amount of contradictions, but contradictions just the same.


    I agree with this totally.


    I more or less agree with this as well.......Especially the part about the HADITH; a bunch of non-sense stories imposed upon to the unsuspecting masses, by certain aspects of Islamic Clergy, who wish to hold the Ummah in line mentallly and spiritually.

    I've no use for that whatsoever.

    Here's where our perspectives diverge then.....

    Here's where I believe that you are mistaken, and are operating off of misconceptions--both about various individuals, and Islam in general.

    Having an "ARAB" name does not a Muslim make. Neither does "using Muslim Jargon" (whatever that is).

    There are Christians with the name Abdul, Ahmed, Tariq, Ali, etc; do you seek to admonish them for their names?

    Speaking of Christians, you are aware that there are Arab Christians, yes? You do know what they call "GOD", yes? I hope you don't think that they call Him "Jehovah".

    This "Muslim Jargon" was originally Arabic colloquialism, and had been so far longer than the Prophet was even around.

    You do know that "ALLAH" was a deity worshipped before the QUR'AN was written, yes? SHE was part of a Trinity.

    This is why it's important to separate one's "religion" from one's "culture".

    The NOI and the 5% teach that "Islam is my culture".

    I have no "religion".

    This is the problem with most of the Islamic Ummah (world); imposing one's ideas upon another. You should have no problem with me, regardless of what I do.

    Why would you lose any sleep, because whatever I choose to call myself? I certainly don't lose any over you.


    Herein lies the problem: A Muslim is not simply one who believes in the QUR'AN, MUHAMMAD, and ALLAH.

    Doesn't the QUR'AN state that ABRAHAM named us MUSLIMS from before?

    If so, what then, does that have to do with MUHAMMAD or the QUR'AN, which did not exsist at that time?

    Islam for me is not centralized around Muhammad.

    As the Lessons teach: "Islam is older than the Sun, Moon, and Stars".

    If your Islam is only 1400 years old, then more power to you.

    Furthermore, I am a MUSLIM, because of what the word "Muslim" means.

    MU'AS-SALIM: One of Peace.

    It does not (nor has ever) mean "one who submits". Do you know the word for Submission in Arabic?

    The notion that Islam means "submission" is another misconception pushed upon an unsuspecting Ummah, by the same Islamic clergy, under the guise of "IJTAHAD".

    It's the same slave mentality from Christianity; stay in "submission", so that you'll never question the non-sense.

    Just like the term "ALLAH", the term "MUSLIM" has been around in in Ancient Arabia, back when Black Nubians ruled that land. It's not new.

    I claim that title out of my birth right, not because of religious affiliation.

    I claim it, the same way I claim being a BODDHISATVA (Buddhist)....... A Buddhist is not one who worships, believes in, or follows Buddha.....

    The term BODDHISATVA simply means "Enlightened One". That's what I am.

    I would suggest that, instead of admonishing others about what they believe and call themselves, that you take the time to learn more about what YOU believe and call yourself.

    Because in the end, that's all that you really need to be concerned with.

    I don't claim any religion, as I stated: Islam is my culture.

    By the way, you do realize that the term "Islam" is not found anywhere in the QUR'AN, and that MUHAMMAD himself never even used that term......??

    The term came AFTER his death. Do you know who coined the word?

    Why would I say something that I don't agree with? And why would I say something, just because you said it?

    That has nothing to do with me.

    It's obvious that your perception of Islam and "religion" as a whole is diametrically different from mine, and I can respect that; you do your thing, and I'll do mine.

    AS SALAAMU ALAYKUM RAHMULITALLAHI, WA BARAKAATU.
     
  4. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    PEACE JALIL:

    I didn't even read your post prior to posting mine.

    Everything you stated is all wise, right and exact.

    The Honorable Elijah Muhammad stated: "If you wish to see the Black man as God of the Earth, then look to Ancient Egypt".

    I believe that Islam for Black people is mean to trace our heritage back to its source.

    PEACE
     
  5. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    PJ

    Salaams bro....


    Let me just say that I do not subcribe to what is considered "orthodox". I'm a student of Noble Drew Ali, Master Fard Muhammed, The Hon. Elijah Muhammed and Clarence X13. I'm also more intune with the teachings of Sufi Islam.

    It's not so much a matter of what's "orthodox" or traditional when it comes to following the teachings of these men.

    They all had a degree of knowledge and influence, but if you accept all of their religions teachings then you will certainly be in error and following false doctrine as far as Islam is concerned.

    Do you know that the Nation of Islam teach that 23 other Gods assist the "Supreme God" in writing the future and gathering information?

    Do you know that the Nation of Islam deny life after physical death?










    Sam


    Peace black man....



    That's what makes you Muslim? Not me...

    So YOU can be a Muslim without accepting the Koran and Muhammad?????

    Brutha are you deranged in the membrane?





    I more or less agree with this as well.......Especially the part about the HADITH; a bunch of non-sense stories imposed upon to the unsuspecting masses, by certain aspects of Islamic Clergy, who wish to hold the Ummah in line mentallly and spiritually.

    I've no use for that whatsoever.

    If we agree on nothing else, this is enough for us to stay in good standing with eachother.

    Now I gotta straighten you out on the prayers.





    Here's where I believe that you are mistaken, and are operating off of misconceptions--both about various individuals, and Islam in general.

    Having an "ARAB" name does not a Muslim make. Neither does "using Muslim Jargon" (whatever that is).

    There are Christians with the name Abdul, Ahmed, Tariq, Ali, etc; do you seek to admonish them for their names?

    No, because they were BORN with those names and most of them have an understanding of what they mean.

    But if you reject Islam and Arabism...why choose an Islamic, Arab or Japanese (samurai) name?







    Speaking of Christians, you are aware that there are Arab Christians, yes? You do know what they call "GOD", yes? I hope you don't think that they call Him "Jehovah".

    They call Him Allah brutha.

    The ancient Hebrews called Him Elah also.




    This "Muslim Jargon" was originally Arabic colloquialism, and had been so far longer than the Prophet was even around.

    You do know that "ALLAH" was a deity worshipped before the QUR'AN was written, yes? SHE was part of a Trinity.


    I know the goddess "Allat" as part of a trinity said to be one of the 3 daughters of Allah.

    But Allah never was part of any trinity in Arab religion/mythology.






    This is the problem with most of the Islamic Ummah (world); imposing one's ideas upon another. You should have no problem with me, regardless of what I do.

    Why would you lose any sleep, because whatever I choose to call myself? I certainly don't lose any over you


    No, but I don't like to see my beautiful religion mis-represented.

    Whether by AfroAmericans who believe in and spread false doctrine...

    Or murderous back-ward Arabs and racist Pakistanis who practice corruption and also spread false doctrine.

    That's one of the reasons I left Christianity; becaue the people were CLAIMING one thing while believing and practicing another.








    Herein lies the problem: A Muslim is not simply one who believes in the QUR'AN, MUHAMMAD, and ALLAH.

    Doesn't the QUR'AN state that ABRAHAM named us MUSLIMS from before?



    True





    If so, what then, does that have to do with MUHAMMAD or the QUR'AN, which did not exsist at that time?

    Because one of the requirements of being a BELIEVER is believing in all the Prophets and the Books they brought.

    If you don't believe in the Koran or think it contained contradictions and errors and doubt the existance or authority of Muhammad....then you are not a true Muslim.
     
  6. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    continuing....



    Sam



    Islam for me is not centralized around Muhammad.

    As the Lessons teach: "Islam is older than the Sun, Moon, and Stars".

    If your Islam is only 1400 years old, then more power to you.

    Furthermore, I am a MUSLIM, because of what the word "Muslim" means.

    MU'AS-SALIM: One of Peace.

    It does not (nor has ever) mean "one who submits". Do you know the word for Submission in Arabic?


    The notion that Islam means "submission" is another misconception pushed upon an unsuspecting Ummah, by the same Islamic clergy, under the guise of "IJTAHAD".


    Thanx for the enlightenment bro...really.






    It's the same slave mentality from Christianity; stay in "submission", so that you'll never question the non-sense.

    Just like the term "ALLAH", the term "MUSLIM" has been around in in Ancient Arabia, back when Black Nubians ruled that land. It's not new.


    Doesn't Islam teach that Muhammad was just one Prophet in a LONG LINE of other prophets teaching the same thing?

    So why would we be suprised to see that the revelation he brought matchs that of past scriptures and prophets?

    Fact is fact regardless of time or region.





    I claim that title out of my birth right, not because of religious affiliation.

    I claim it, the same way I claim being a BODDHISATVA (Buddhist)....... A Buddhist is not one who worships, believes in, or follows Buddha.....

    The term BODDHISATVA simply means "Enlightened One". That's what I am.

    I would suggest that, instead of admonishing others about what they believe and call themselves, that you take the time to learn more about what YOU believe and call yourself.

    Because in the end, that's all that you really need to be concerned with
    .


    But Buddhists also believe in re-incarnation and deny the existance of Paradise, Hell, and one Supreme God.

    Do you also deny these things?








    This is why it's important to separate one's "religion" from one's "culture".

    The NOI and the 5% teach that "Islam is my culture".

    I have no "religion".



    I don't claim any religion, as I stated: Islam is my culture.

    By the way, you do realize that the term "Islam" is not found anywhere in the QUR'AN, and that MUHAMMAD himself never even used that term......??

    The term came AFTER his death. Do you know who coined the word?



    But the problem is brutha....the Koran clearly says:


    "Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (Koran 5:3)


    The NOI and the 5% aren't teaching proper and true Islam themselves so how can they tell you when they don't know themeselves?


    Don't listen to false doctrine man....

    Islam is a RELIGION it's PERFECT and it should be practiced properly.




    If you want to call yourself a Muslim, make sure you're practicing ISLAM...not HIS-LAM.
     
  7. Moorfius

    Moorfius Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    We have "Much" to Learn.

    Islam:Translated into English or any other Language means Peace
    Kaba: Is pre-historic in origen; The Ka means Spirit, Baa means Soul from
    ancient Kemet or Egypt. (African Ancistors)
    Phrophet Muhammad: PBH, Life is the most documented of all of
    the Phrophets, some known and some are un-known in the west.
    There are more so-called Black African Muslims in Africa than the total population of Arabia. Agree or dis-agree, Islam has been a save-ing grace among Africans in America. Islam gave us Nobel Drew Ali, Elijah Muhammad, Malik Shabazz, Muhammad Ali, W.D. Mohammed, Hon.Min.Louis Farrakhan, Kalid Muhammad, Dr. Niam Akbar, Siles Muhammad, "The Million Man March", The Million Family March,The Oct.16 2005, 10 Million Man March and "All" of the "Contributions","Growth" in the Minds, Understanding and Positive ir-reversable direction twords the total and complete Freedom,Equality,Justice and Salvation of the so-called Black Man and Woman in America and around the world. How can any one in their right mind confuse our lagitimate struggle with being a Fraud unless that person is either ignorant or the Open Enemy to us all. Islam has and is along with Cristianity been our (Africans in America) save-ing grace here in the "Hells" of America. We need each other Brothers and Sisters. We don't need Confusion and Foolishness.
    Sincerely
     
  8. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Moor

    I agree with everything you've said but I need a little more clarification of what you meant by those calling our struggle a "fraud" being ignorant or an enemy.


    Are you Muslim?
     
  9. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    PEACE RALFA'IL:

    For someone who shirks the ideals of "orthodoxy" and traditionalism of Islam, you certainly do echo them rather eloquently.

    WRONG.

    Your gross misinterpretation of the Hon. Elijah Muhammad's teachings is atrocious.

    Please QUOTE where you got this info from.

    In the meantime, the correct info, is that the 24 ELDERS (not "GODS") are the ones responsible for prophecy and history.

    This teaching is taken from the Book of Revelations.......Read that book lately?

    WRONG AGAIN.

    Do you know what the NOI teaches that The Hon. Elijah Muhammad went after he died?

    It appears that you are not at all well-studied on the teachings of the NOI.

    Brother, I humbly request that you refrain from the banter. It's not needed to carry on a discourse.

    As such, perhaps what I should have stated, is that that's not ALL that makes me Muslim.

    By the way, the acceptance of Muhammad is INNOVATION in Islam.

    Nevertheless, I had already stated what a Muslim was, based on the etymology of the word. Either take it or leave it.

    Who on earth are you speaking about?

    There are Negroes in the Church around the corner from me, with names like this......I've asked many of them, what they're names mean, and aside from an ignorant shrug of the shoulder, that have naught for an answer to give.

    Don't presume to speak for people, my friend.

    Where have you read that I reject any of the 3 things that you mentioned?

    Please do not put words into my mouth.

    Ironically, the commonality that all 3 things that you stated share, is the fact that the Black Man, the Original Man, is the founder of all 3.

    Besides, what does a Nipponai title (SAMURAI) have to do with my perspective on Islam?

    Yes, they do......So then, does your admonishment also extend to them? By your logic, they should have no business saying "ALLAH", since that is a "MUSLIM" term.

    However, in reality it is not. It is simply a Semitic one.

    Among other things, yes.

    "Is said"......? Is this based on your own studies on the subject?

    By the way, that's not what the QUR'AN says on the matter......And beyond that, the spiritual systems practiced in SABA and HIMYAR say otherwise.

    ALLAH was the feminine aspect (MOON GODDESS) in a hierarchial Trinity pantheon that consisted of 360 Gods.

    Why do you think that the the universally recognized symbol for Islam is the Crescent Moon?

    Your "God" is a WOMAN, my brother, as she very well should be.

    As a matter of fact, each of the 99+1 Attributes for Allah (the TAWHIYD science in Islam) were names taken from 100 of these deities.

    It seems thus, that you cannot escape the "paganism" that you abhor so much. :rolleyes:

    I may post more info on the pathology of ALLAT, ALLAH, and MIZNAT, and how they correlate to Kemetic Metu Neter (AUSAR, AUSET, and HERU) in another thread later.

    Your "beautiful religion" is as tained and defiled as any other "religion" that man has had his grubby little hands on.

    And that tainting begins with yourself; before you seek to declare a Jihad on anyone and/or the world, why don't you seek to rectify alot of the misconceptions that you have within the trappings of your own mind?

    Then isn't it time that you left Islam then?

    Why hold on with such a tight emotional vice to Islam, yet let go of Christianity?

    Emotional sensationalism has no place in spiritual ascension, my friend. Approach these ideologies with your Higher Self, instead of your Lower Self, and you'll perhaps begin to see that these "religions" need you, you don't need them.......Especially not to get closer to the Divine.


    If you are saying true to this now, why then were you insulting me with "derranged membrane" jokes, when I had alluded to precisely the same thing?

    This is the result of the emotionality (Lower Self) that you operate from. Contradictions runneth abound when you operate from such a mind-state.

    Focus, my brother, and breathe deeply........Concentrate.

    Firstly, I do not "believe" in anything....Either I know it, or I don't.

    Second, I just explained the origin and etymology of the word Muslim. That is what I am.

    Aside from your emotional affiliations with your "religion", I do not know why (nor do I care) you chose to concern yourself with what anyone else does.

    All things return to ZERO eventually, and we shall all come to see what is correct and what is not.

    If I'm wrong, then I'm more than prepared to accept such a reckoning........The question is are you as well?
     
  10. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    In continuance.........


    You haven't "straightened me out" about anything, nor can you do so.

    With all humility, I can honestly say that you are not very well versed on Qur'anic understandings, and your interpretations of such (that I've seen
    here, in discussions with you thus far), have been lacking.

    As I'd stated in my previous posts in this thread, the only person you should be concerning yourself with, is YOURSELF.

    What does this have to do with the set of statements that you quoted from me, in response to, which was:

    Allow me once more to clarify:

    You are speaking about intercultural terms, that had meanings transcending the Abrahamic legacy.

    "ALLAH" as a HIMYARIC ARABIC word did not come into exsistence with Muhammad, or any other biblical prophet (that you can't even prove existed).

    ALLAH was worshipped as part of a trinity, along with 360 other deities long before, and up to the time Muhammad came on the scene.

    Are you familiar with this, yes or no?

    Your interpretations of religions outside of that which is "Islamic" is appauling, grossly misinterpreted, and down-right WRONG.

    As this is neither the time nor place to give you a dissertation about Buddhism (and you seem neither willing nor able to be receptive to it even if I did), I will give you tidbits of info:

    The concept of Heaven and Hell as "places" is indeed absent for the Boddhisatva; however that does not mean that the concepts altogether are as well.

    NIRVANA would be the closest concept to your "JANNAH" (HEAVEN), without the hedonistic 72 virgins and other such non-sense.

    Reincarnation is not without conditions, and it is certainly not perpetual. As with Heaven/Hell, the Supreme Intelligence exsists, just in a more impersonal manner, and Its Presence is expressed via the duality of the Universe.

    Any Buddhist worth the name could tell you all of this; I'd ask where you got such information, but given your misinterpretations in several threads thus far, I reckon I do not wish to even know :(

    Ah yes.......And what is the word for "religion" in Arabic? Do you know?

    The Bible is not the only victim of mistranslations, you know.

    In addition to gross misinterpretations, you are also guilty of making ***-umptions.

    When did I ever state, anywhere on this board, that the NOI is my sole source of understanding of Islam?

    LMAO @ your meaningless judgments.

    Presuming your sincerity, then you're quite welcome.

    MA'SALAAM
     
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