With the latest round of indignation of Catholicism continued inability to deal with child molesters and rapists, calls for an end to celibacy and bringing women into the priesthood are being heard anew. It seems to come at a good time with the church paying out millions in settlements, but bringing women into the priesthood and ending celibacy is to paint over the problem.

The problem is simple. The Catholic Church, as well as nearly any church, is a haven for child molesters and sexual predators. Why? The answer to that question is also simple. What better place to hide than in a position of respectability, and, religion carries that power with it for better or worse.

This news is old news and new news in that it keeps coming back and nothing is ever done to solve the problem. Priest, ministers, preachers, monks and other religious figures who molest children and use their positions to take sexual advantage of others should be reported to the police. It is a crime. No the church should not deal with it. It has had centuries to deal with it and the best the Catholic Church could do was to move the offenders to another parish where they could molest again.

Celibacy is surely an unnatural act considering human nature. However, the rejection of the flesh is indeed a difficult sacrifice, but it is not celibacy causing these problems. Unfortunately, priests have been having heterosexual and homosexual relationships since the church began. There is nothing new in that. In fact, before 1200 AD, priests often had families. However, because of the corruption in the church and the passing on of church properties to a priest’s family at his death, the powers in Rome implemented Celibacy as a condition of being a priest.

It is no cause of nothing other than secret masturbation and a host of other hidden sexual activities, that if it weren’t for it them being priests, would be considered fairly normal for any other man. No, it isn’t celibacy. It’s the job and the failure of the Catholic Church to take serious punitive action against the offenders.

In general, those who are sexual predators put themselves in positions where they have access to the prey of their choice and those positions are usually places where they are least expected. Examples includes school teachers, gym teachers, scout leaders, choir directors, camp leaders, the clergy and other positions that are high trust categories for the general public. This is where they hide.

The continued failure of the Catholic Church to take direct punitive action against these predators has led them to the church where they have a safe hiding place and ample opportunities. Perhaps, it is time to deal with the church.

Can I say, Amen to all that you have said here...

this is not a new problem by any means, but each time it happens it's supposed to cause a gasp of shock/horror from the public...I don't think so...the general public, not to mention the victims and their families, are sick and tired of nothing being done about most, if not nearly all of these instances...it's a classic case of the ostrich burying it's head in the sand, or the " sweeping it under the carpet" syndrome, and as you said , it is getting old, in fact it's ancient!...

the Catholic Church has placed it's self above the law, and has been allowed to do so by a justice system that rules the rest of society...how many times in how many of these cases has it been heard that the leader of the church knew that the abuse by one of the priests or teachers was happening, but nothing was done about it...or the church has been allowed to say that they will deal with it in their own way...why is the catholic church allowed to hide behind it's religious cloak and be unanswerable to law and order, unlike the rest of society....

as you stated, this is not about celibacy, which I too think is against the laws of nature, but it is all about providing a safe, secure haven, for sexual perverts and paedophiles, to practice these repeated acts of perversion, cruelty, and horror, on innocent children who are available to them at any time...it's like letting a sugar addict loose in a candy shop...and it will not stop or go away until the catholic church is made accountable for it's goings on in the church, as a part of society, not as a separate society on it's own....

K

They have passed these people along for years, moving them from once place to another after they pronouce them "cured". Even Oral Roberts couldn't heal these people and moving them to fresh hunting grounds is certainly no way to do, especially when they are passed off as shepherds of the flock and instead turnout to be wolves in sheeps clothing.

No, it is nothing new and that is sad. Unfortunately, religion is a willing dupe in this facade as it unwittingly supplies a home for these predators. It is not all their fault because it is natural for the predator to apply stealth in searching for victims. However, what is unnatural is for someone else to knowingly supply victims pretending the predator has become a sheep.

The wolf remains a wolf no matter how much wool it wears. It is a wolf and wolves are carnivorous--they hunt. The Catholic church needs to stand to the answer and that is that it is wrong in its past handling of such cases. Celibacy has nothing to do with it. It is about opportunity.

Ra

:maddd:

R. Kelly may be one and if covicted he should do the max--you are so right--they are everywhere they can hide and the best places to hide are in positions of authority--where they are unquestioned and make their own rules--I see no cure for them other than removing them from society or put them in a society that tolerates it--but I don't think that will happen.

Ra

:maddd:

when I first read the last part of your response my reaction was that I shudder to think that there could be any society that would tolerate the behaviour of paedophiles...but then on thinking about it, I think we already have a society that tolerates this behaviour...society in general tolerates it because not nearly enough is being done to stop it...

also it makes you think, that if this kind of behaviour is recognised here and is known to happen and still there is not a harsh enough punishment to stop it or at least put a halt to it, imagine the extent of abuse of paedophiles in say, third world countries where media attention and public awareness would not be anywhere as vocal as what it is in other countries....

and I have to agree with Kem that it is not only the paedophiles that need to account for their behaviour, but their enablers as well, who are in fact accomplices or accessories to the crime, and therefore should also be made accountable...

in our society we have paedohphiles putting innocent children through hell on a daily basis, and when it is suggested that lists should be compiled and photos of the paedophiles made available to the public so that you know when they are in your neighbourhood, all the do-gooders say it is unjust because they (the paedophiles) have already paid for their crime....yet they have nothing to say about a childs life being destroyed or taken from them..these victims do not suffer for a short term...they suffer for the rest of their lives, and so many of them never recover or are able to live a normal life....tell me where that is fair...

K

Amun-Ra ... thanks for this one. When I first saw it, I thought, just like Amun-Ra to bring the difficult issues to the table.

I think to assume that celibacy is the issue, these men would be breaking their vows by having indiscriminate sex with adult women, but that's not the case. They are choosing children. This points to a much greater issue than celibacy can cause. These are sick people that probably can't be cured (though I have heard of drugs that reduce one's desire for sex in general ... or surgical removal of the penis and scrotum may do it as well). At any rate, extreme measures are called for. This whole pedophile issue is growing, with the Internet. I don't think it's growing any more than any other deviant behaviour, but the Internet has provided a medium where they can remain somewhat anonymous, while fulfilling their desires.

Amun-Ra, you had written an article before about adults within a family, taking advantage of the children sexually. You mentioned that this is nothing new and even outside the church, it's always been a hushed and not acted on event. It's sad to say, there are Mothers aware that their daughters are and/or have been violated by their husbands/boyfriends ... yet they remain with them.

Yes, it's all over our community ... so very sad.

Kitana ... I posted a link in the open forum and am going to share it here too, in regard to a web site that lists convicted sexual predators that may be living in your community. While the priests that have been allowed to do this, may not be found on this site ... there are others who are not so priviledged abusers, that are listed.

You can click on your state, enter your county or zip code and see pictures, names, addresses, etc., of the convicted sexual predators living in your neighborhood.

Of course I've checked mine out and was surprised there are so many!

http://www.apbonline.com/resourcecenter/sexoffender/

:heart:

Destee

Thank you for the link..I think that having databases such as these available for the public to view is the least the government and justice system, can do to stop or at least make people aware of, the sexual predators within their community...

I know here in Australia it caused a lot of hue and cry when it was first suggested for each state to provide it's people with more or less the same sort of database...their plan was to provide all relevant details as well as photos...the opposition to the formation of these databases was overwhelming, and I know the motion was held up and put forward and put to the side so many times....I'm still not sure if it up and running in all states, but you have renewed my interest so I will endeavour to find out more about it...

even today after reading your reply, I went and done a bit of surfing and was amazed to see how many groups are associated with paedophiles on the internet...I don't mean to sound crude or to seem to make light of such a serious subject, but it almost seems as if the internet serves as more or less as a gourmet take-away for paedophiles...children are more or less ready and waiting for their choosing...and their access to them (the children) is unlimited...they can masquerade under a cloak of deceit and no-one is any the wiser...

it is definitely a sad situation when parents have to monitor their childs every movement, and every activity, like never before, to keep them safe..no longer is there such a thing as an "innocent childhood"...

K

Kitana !!! I didn't know you were in Australia !!! I thought you were in California !!! Lawwwwddd ... well now ... :) ... seems like it oughtta mean something significant or change the way we talk to each other or sump'n ... but nothing feels different ... still seems like you're right down the hall like always! :wink:

I'll come back and post to this topic ... I'm kinda tired now ... goodnight. :)

:heart:

Destee

i'm simply agreeing wit da family here ........speak on so da world
may knowth of truth

In some cultures men are allowed to have child brides who may be as young as 12 years old. We frown on it because of the innocence of the child, but it is not new. Unfortunately, some of these patterns have been established. However, in the United States there is no excuse. Thanks for the links. It all over the country and these predators hide in positions of responsibility and importance and that is precisely what gives them the access they so desire. It also gives them the power of authority to keep things quiet.

The church is hardly a new haven for these predators. It just seems worse that a man of the cloth would be one of these people but we know that rank nor station have no affect on those who are involved in these activities. The church's main problem is in covering it up and hiding those who are guilty in the misguided notion that these people can be cured.

No, celibacy is an easy target for the media and for shallow discusion, but in reality it has nothing to do with this type of abuse.

Ra

:heart:

Destee...

I'm happy that nothing feels any different...:)
I'm still only seconds away down a cyberspace hallway..

K

your first point is so true...a few years ago I read a true story written by an arabian princess, and some of the things that happen in her country, concerning children and sexual relations is not only appalling but sickening...and to think it is a recognised practice that is acceptable behaviour in their society makes it seem so much worse...

but as you say, in a lot of modernised countries this is not acceptable behaviour, and as such should not be tolerated...

as for churches trying to hide the fact that they house paedophiles within their community, and who not only ask to deal with these problems themselves, but are actually allowed to do so, to me seems as if they are allowed to put themselves above the law...and the question is why?...because they serve the Lord?..because they are men of the cloth?....as far as I'm concerned there is nothing that separates them from any other paedophile..they are what they are...regardless of their postion in the church or in society, and so then, should pay for their crimes along with the rest of society....

I also think it is time for the old saying of "let the punishment fit the crime"..come into play...

K

Now that's the real tragedy. The cardinals and bishops have sounded more like Wall Street lawyer than caring and loving men of the cloth. Thereprime purpose seems to be to protect the church even if it means protecting those who are calling the church into such ill-repute.

Instead of concern for the abused, we get protection for child molesters and with a straight face as if they didn't know that is wrong to do such things. By looking to protect the church first, these people have hurt the church even more. I am not a church fan, but I recognize its influence in society and generally it seems tohave a good face, but this puts a black eye and a broken nose on the church steeple. Stone walling went out with Richard Nixon. We all know what it got him--into even deeper trouble when if he had come clean i the firt place, he might have survived that scandal.

The church is circling the wagons when they should be surrunding the wagons that are hiding these priestly child molesters and driving them from their ranks into the arms of the police.

Ra


:maddd:

I agree with most of what has already been posted, however I will say that I think the celibacy issue does have a little something to do with it. If priests were allowed to marry and have families more adults who are attracted to adults and don't prey on young children, would be attracted to the priesthood. I am not by any means saying this would solve the problem. Of course there are many more issues that still need to be resolved. However, I think the fact that priests are required to live an unnatural lifestyle causes abnormal people such as pediphiles to be attracted to the priesthood. It is natural for men and women to desire eachother and it is natural for people to feel the need to procreate. Vowing to spend your entire life without these things is something most people would never be willing to do. There could be people who would be good religious leaders and who are members of the Catholic Church but they don't become priests for this reason. I think that one of the reasons the powerful people in the Catholic Church are so lax in dealing with this issue, and so quick to sweep it under the rug regardless of how many lives it ruins thereby enabling the disgusting behavior to continue, is because so many are sexual deviants themselves.

I know that this behavior goes on in all facets of our society and unfortunately it is often covered up no matter what the profession, lifestyle, or marital status of the offender. However, when these crimes come to light in secular society there is some action that can be taken. At least the offender can be fired, criminal charges can be filed, s/he can serve jail time. When these things happen in the Catholic Church the priest is just moved elsewhere where he is free to molest again. I am not saying that cover ups of this nature have never happened in other churches where religious leaders are allowed to marry or even in secular society; however they seem to be more rampant in the Catholic Church as does the nonchalant attitude of the higher ups in the Church after so many of the allegations and atrocities were made public.

Again, I am not saying that the celibacy vows are the only problem. Nor am I saying that it is impossible for someone to willingly choose a celibate lifestyle for noble reasons and stand by that. The most important issue is probably the seemingly absolute power that the higher ups in the Catholic Church hold. And what kind of people could possibly think that it is okay to hide the atrocities that these men committed and then turn around and put them in positions where they could do it over and over again. These are the people that wield all this power?

I can hardly find fault with your argument. I agree that celibacy is not the key issue and that it is a contributing factor--an abnormal contributing factor. It is sad that respectability is the very place that provides the perfect hiding place for these terrible people, but I think you are right--by removing the celibacy vow, it would reduce the hidingplace somewhat, although married men have been known to be pedophiles also, but at least we might be able to spot them a little easier if the church wasn't involved wityh hiding them.

This should be a legal issue outside the church. Too many priests and preachers have been "cured" in church settings and allowed to go to knew places to do the same thing again. Keep ther good work coming. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this.

Ra

;)

Ra,

You have offered another key issue and the room has responded. So much has been said so far that there really is no more that i could offer on the subject. As for celibacy in the priesthood? I feel that priest should be able to marry, not only for the reasons here but simply for the fact that i find it difficult to believe that someone could counsel or offer biblical advice to a married couple if they themselves have not experienced the ups and downs of marriage. Many couples are left to suufer through relationships because the single, celibate priest has no real solution to their marital problems. Marriage is more than a spoken concept but the most intimate relationship one could ever experience. How could someone who is committed to a life of singleness ever understand the principles of marriage?

Just a question i pondered for a while now...

D:

You open a new can of worms when you bring the marriage equation into the formula. You are right. Despite how much training one recieves in marriage counseling, family counseling and psychology--it is still difficult to counsel couples in a situation that the counselor has never experienced. The very fact that they take a vow of celibacy, which by the means more than the accepted sexual connotation, removes the priest from reality of relationship. Surely, a great deal can be learned through observation, but relations are difficult to judge from the outside even by a trained observer. The same could said of child rearing. It is difficult to understand the perils of parenthood without ever having had children. The attachments, both emotional and social, aren't the same. This would be another area.

On the other hand, in other churches where ministers marry, they often make excellent counselors because they have some idea of what rearing a family requires and what it takes to make a relationship work. In addition, because of their belief systems, they are more likely to be more understanding, although that isn't always the case.

Ra

;)

And I agree with resounding confidence...

While I believe that at some point in history, celibacy in the piresthood was needed to handle all circumstances, as time went on the situations changed greatly. I look at is as attempting to witness to a group of youth in 2002 with methods used in 1802...

Rome should reevaluate their policies (for those who don't know, celibacy is policy) and update them to better serve the Catholic community.

Fewpeople notice the marching orders from the church--they are the church and they pass out the orders--otherwise they become another church if they don't agree--as a former Catholic I find it interesting how many Catholics disagree with the Pope, it is interesting because they expect something different--he is tradition and anyone who has been there has represented tradition--I read the Pope's book and although I am in disagreement with just about everything the church stands for, I was not surprised by what he said--he is the keeper of the faith and he will not be swayed by sudden moderness although he has done some things many thought would never happen in the Catholic church, but he is the Pope. He is not going to change at 82 years old.

In any church, it is the young who musty change the church or the church either stagnates and dies and it just dies. You know that I am not of the church, but as an observer it seems to me that the Church in general (all of them) are causing the most harm to themselves by making claims that are clearly against what we know to be true, being unadaptive to the times and offering mystical poltices for those folks who are really searching.

In Bishop Shelby Spong's "Is Fundamentalism Killing Christianity" he makes a very good case how religion, and Christianity in particular needs to move into the 21st century before it drives away all of its membership. Nowadays people think and they are not satisfied with "pie in the sky" religion for "here on earth" problems. Spong comments that today's churches need to tune into the world and offer solution to problems in the "here and now."

Of course, I'm sure you know that Catholic Church attendance is shrinking as is almost every other church attendance. Why? I think it is because people are looking for answers and the church has failed miserably in providing them. Is it too late? Of course not, but the church will need to change, to get in tune with sexuality, to adjust itself to women as real people, to understand that homosexuals are people too, to build community outreach instead of new churches, to feed the hungry and not the coffers, to render unto Ceasar what is Caesar's and vice-versa.

Personally, I think as long as human being are in charge of anything, despite claims to greater leadership, this type of "blinded" thinking displayed by the Catholic Church and others will continue. When someone grasps that idea, church membership in one form or another will sky-rocket. Of course, then you will have a dilemma--we will have church without religion. Maybe that's the problem--too little God--and--far too much religion.

Ra

;)

Let's realize a few key points here:

1) There are MORE perverts in government, in business, in sports, and in far MORE vocations than IN the church. I'm NOT defending the antics of these 'sexual predators', but it seems interesting that when someone OUTSIDE of the church does this dirt, the public doesn't stop buying cars, or eating at restaurants, or stop paying taxes.

2) We DON'T hear about the 'sexual predators' in Mosques, Temples, or the United Nations. Recently, we just had it reported that UN workers have been raping African women and girls. No one prosecuted, no one imprisoned.

3) The Catholic Church has been doing this deed for CENTURIES. In Italy several hundred years ago, it was discovered that anywhere there was a convent and a monestary in close proximity, underground there were HUNDREDS of dead babies because the Priests and Nuns were 'getting their roll on'. The outraged Italians burned BOTH buildings to the ground.

4) It is NOT up to youth to impact or change their church! They don't have the experience, nor the financial wherewithal to accomplish such a feat. Plus, the youth are supposed to be taught, first at home, then at church! If they aren't listening to their parents, what makes you think the church should listen to them? The only way churches change is THROUGH God getting ahold of HIS true people and doing some major house cleaning from the Pulpit to the Pew!

5) Lastly, the Protestant and Catholic churches are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES! Check out the CODE OF CANON LAW that was approved, and is still in place in the Catholic Church. The Pope is viewed as God...which is why the Protestant Church broke from Rome in the first place.

Oh, and lest I forget, the Catholic Church has taken it upon themselves to create their own Bible! Their Bible is NOT the same as in the Protestant ranks.

Mike Ramey

The Catholic Church invented the Bible--they decided what was Bible and what was not Bible, they actually voted on the gospels to be included and those not to be, the edited the Bible and especially the part we all know as the New Testament--it was literally decided by a vote, the Gnostic gospels fall nowhere in the new testament not do the James versions which are kept at the Vatican but well known, the protestants may have split from the CHURCH, but they took 66 books the Catholic church prescribed as the Bible. In fact, there was no Bible until the Catholic Church created one some 300 years after the death of Christ. The King James Version of the Bible, which most people are familiar with, was the 45th in a long line of translations and retranslation of the Bible. Therefore, on that note the Protestant church is very much in tune with the Catholic Church theologically speaking, just not in practical agreement. It must also be understood that there are various versions and editions, the versions being different translations and the editions being edited or modifications of the “versions.”

Secondly, perhaps you misunderstood youth to mean children. It is indeed the young who must change the church. Martin Luther, who started the protestant reform, was in his 40's when he set the world of religion on its ear with his theses. Compared to the church fathers, he was a young man. Change in religion has always come about through the younger, mature adults of the church as the elders have more interest in keeping the status quo. Martin Luther King Jr. set the elders to rocking because he spoke out from the pulpit and politically--this was considered subversive to the ways of the church and he was a relatively young man. Right now, gospel music is doing much the same. Kirk Franklin is a good example. He is changing the way religious music is viewed. Many do not like it, but it will not change if the elders are expected to do it.

True enough that molestation charges are not hawked in the newspapers they are when it is church scandal, but it definitely a problem everywhere in society. Boy Scout camps, Sunday schools, youth camps, fathers molesting their daughters, politicians and you name it--it is a problem that is not endemic to the church or religion. And as far as Canon Law is concerned, The Council of Trent decided that the Pope is the "legitimate" successor to Peter--not God--and each Pope is said to be the spiritual successor to the one before him dating back to Peter. Of course, few people know that there have been multitudes of Popes with sometime three serving at the same time because of politics. The Pope is not considered God, although there is a legacy of infallibility connected to the papacy, it is not prescribed as such, but only as a servant of God and the successor of Peter. Of course, it is a convoluted idea, but much of what is organized religion escapes rationality under the guiding hand of men.

Before the King James version of the Bible ever saw the light of day there were at least 70 versions before it including the Tyndale Bible, one the protestant chuch's greatest scholars. Tyndale ended up fleeing for his life, although later his version of the Bible served as the model for the most popular version--the King James Version.



Ra

;)

Glad you got my post, Ra.

No, the Catholic Church created their own Bible. If you compare the Catholic Bible to the KJV, from around 300 AD, there are TWO distinctive lines of Biblical thought. One leading to the formation of the Catholic Church (through the Alexandrian cult), and the True Carriers of the Word of God leading to the KJV. Constantine, the Roman Head of State at the time, succeeded in doing the next step of compromise--putting forth a state merger with religion, which led to the formal establishment of what we now know as the Church of Rome, or the Catholic Church.

According to the CODE that I mentioned, the Pope is held to be GOD in the Catholic Faith. He is held to be infallable; he also is held to represent Christ, and he is also held to speak for the Holy Spirit. In fact, the CODE makes it clear that Protestants (those who won't side with Rome) are Heritics in the Highest Degree.

Martin Luther broke with Rome over the sale of Indulgences. The 95 Thesies that Luther nailed on the Whittenburg door was the formal break...because Luther read the Bible--the Protestant version, and came OUT of Rome over one piece of scripture..."The Just Shall Live by Faith!"

Yes, man has messed things up! However, in the USA, while there are 450 Denomiations, there are also 1,500 active cults. God, through his word, ONLY set TWO standards: Those who are with Him in Christ Jesus, and those who are NOT! Man has, indeed, corrupted the system.

Man, in the Roman Catholic Church, also messed up when it comes to Celebacy. Peter WAS married! Mary (the earthly mother of Jesus Christ) HAD more children with Joseph AFTER Christ was born. The Catholic Bible leaves these facts OUT.

Celebacy is NOT a requirement for PROTESTANT ministers, as Paul proclaimed that one of the requirements for church leadership was that a minister or deacon was the husband of ONE wife...meaning that the man did not practice POLYGAMY or BIGAMY. Rome, to keep her priests in line, opted for celebacy...which is something man CANNOT do. Paul was NOT married by CHOICE; not by FORCE.

Yes, the scandal in the Roman church is a shame, and the children are suffering. Will Rome change? Not under this present Pope! Its been covered up for years. However, get a copy of THE CODE OF CANON LAW. To truly understand HOW Rome functions.

One last thing; man may have messed up concerning the church, but the True Church does NOT belong to man...it is the property of God, through Jesus Christ. Christianity is NOT a religion, but a RELATIONSHIP. Anything other that this is a sham.

Mike Ramey

You can paint this one however you want but the Bible came from Catholicism--the one true Christian church--the start--the mother of them all--until Luther and then the splits and versions number in the hundreds--the Pentatuch was considered a separate part--the Old Testament--the book of Judaism--but the Catholic Church had it all--after it was a Jewish sect that split from Judaism. Personally, it makes absolutely no difference to me because of uses the book have been put to over the ages and the people who have killed millions (protestants and Catholics) in its name, but without Universalism (Catholics) there was no Christiam church and there was no Bible. Yes, the Catholics did pick and choose which parts they would set to doctrine. Nevertheless the 66 books of the Bible were voted on and selected by the Catholic Church.

Ra

;)

Hate to throw a roadbock up in the party, Ra, but ya DON'T know Jack on the formation of the 66 Books of the Bible. The Catholic Bible contains MORE than 66 books. That's where the rub comes in, because they included the 'fables' of the Alexandrian translators, ie the Acrophia (sp)...those middle books of the scriptures. Just like the Koran (Quoran) doesn't count without the Hadith, the Catholic Bible doesn't count without the middle section, inbetween the Old and New Testaments.

WHEN the KJV was translated for the WORLD to see, the Catholic papacy tried its best to get the translators to insert the Acrophia. They refused, repeatedly! The Catholics then tried to, in this order: Blow up Parliament, Assassinate King James, Assassinate the more than 50 scholars who were involved in the translation.

Now, this is from the CODE OF CANON LAW, the governing document for the Roman Catholic Church, and I'll paraphrase: Scripture does NOT count, unless it is in LATIN. This came out of the Vatican II Council in 1964, and was approved by Pope John Paul the II, as it takes any major revision in the Catholic Church years to make it to approval. By the way, this is the same method used to approve of saints, etc.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Ra. Check out the Book THE TWO BABYLONS. It breaks down the tracking of the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible in clear detail. Plus, a great website that has the FULL, blow by blow description of the Catholic debate is www.jesus-is-lord.com. It is owned by a wonderful sister who has spent a lot of time assembling the documentation, including extensive documentation as to the 'whys' behind the recent molestation epidemic in the Catholic church.

Just trying to let you know that the truth is out there.

Mike Ramey

My oh my...another strong viewpoint on the issues. Hey RA, i leave for a while and you find someone else to pay with :lol ...

Mike, you bring good points and i am enjoying both sides of this debate but i would like to express that in the process of agreeing that celibacy is fallable, the discussion should not fall away into debate over what is and is not the Bible. The key matter here is that the Bible is the Word of God through inspiration and revelation. Even today scholars (or theologians) are still find bits and pieces of text recording the events of the biblical era. I myself am amazed at the findings and would hope that a compilation of all texts made available for discussion.

I also agree with you about Paul choosing to be single but also remeber that his reasoning behind it is also the reason the Catholic church incorporated it as a part of their CODE. Paul wrote that
An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the things of the world--how he may please his wife-- 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is concerned about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the things of the world--how she may please her husband. 35 Now I am saying this for your own benefit, not to put a restraint on you, but because of what is proper, and so that you may be devoted to the Lord without distraction. I Cor. 7:32-36

He also states, a few verses earlier, that each one must live his life in the situation the Lord assigned when God called him. Paul spoke highly of being single but also made clear that married couples are not isolated from the work of God. The Catholic Church instituted celibacy as a means to prevent the possibility of priest being focussed on the things of man. This was their thinking in an era where the church was regarded in a pcompletely different ligth as today. Also the Catholic church was very active in the political arena od the days as well as the Early Years of the church.

Today, especially in this socitey, where there is a strong support for seperation of church and state, the power in which the church, not God, has is dwindling.

Whenever a particular denomination places a man in the position of God, then they are no longer a strong supporter of the God based belief system. Moreso, they are a god based, not God based. As stipulated in Old Testament teaching of one and only one God, placing a person in such a position leaves room for dissention. the Catholic church is suffering from the secrets coming to light now. They will continue to suffer as long as they believe that the way they do things is right.

I will check out those sites you posted, Mr. Ramey...You have offered good information...

Ra, once again you have given us a place to reflect...

I didn't mention it the Catholic Bible--you did--in the vernacular--the Bible is usually considered the KJV--and the point still is the Catholic church determined what was in that Bible and still has access to the documentation--and the Bible that is argued is the Protestant Bible--yes, the Catholic Bible has many books, gospels and even records that have never seen the general light of day, but it does not override the fact that the Bible the Protestant world uses came from the Catholic church.

I never did get to finish this post--the net died and along with it--my PC. I was going to say we have a live one in Mike Ramey and that is good to see. It seems like your are the only one who will come out here and say anything about religion be it positive or negative. Hopefully, we can keep this going. It helps me think and when I speak in public, it keeps me fresh--plus, I always learn something new from these exchanges.

By the way, I just picked up on some interesting reading concerning suicide and martyrdom. An interesting piece saying that perhaps Jesus committed suicide. At first this seemed a rather silly thing to postulate and then the reasoning behind made me think.

Suicide is the willful taking of one's own life. If we accept that definition, it is clear that any taking of one's own life in Biblical context would be a sin. The author contends that since Jesus actually had the power to change the outcome of the crucifixion, that he committed suicide by doing nothing to stop it. Of course, the other side of that argument is that, perhaps, he had no power to stop it, in which case as part of the Holy Trinity makes him either entirely human with no power, the son of God with miraculous powers but no power over that situation which throws us back to the first case or he knowingingly withheld his powers and thus assisted in the taking of his own life--suicide.

I thought I was going to laugh at first and then the more I thought about it, th emore I realized that there is room here for substantitive argument. Have you seen this one?

Ra