Hello Everyone,

Just wondering ... can a person get to "heaven" if they don't pay tithes ... or whatever is synonymous in your faith ... ?

Destee

Thanks for responding Kemetstry. I was speaking specifically regarding financial contributions to a church/pastor.

Can a person get to heaven without giving a portion (10%) of their earnings to a church/pastor?

For the sake of this discussion, we'll assume they are "tithing" in all other areas.

Destee

this issue is one of many dividing walls in the church.
but paying tithes is most definitely not a determinant of divine destiny.
it's not critical since the church isn't told specifically/directly to tithe in the new testament.

however i've come to expect many deeply religious people to think of not paying tithes as a block to the pearly gate's entrance, but that's their shallow and brainwashed conditioning.

Destee, how do you define heaven??

J'hiah ... thanks for joining in on this. My definition of heaven, in regard to this thread, is the place we go after death. Our reward, so to speak, for living a life worthy of being counted pleasing in His eyes. The opposite of hell. :D

If tithing is not necessary for the admission to heaven, why is it so often the topic of many a Sunday sermon? One would think that the things necessary for admission would be more the focus.

Hmmmm ...

Kemetstry ... I understand that and appreciate you sharing it. But the focus seems to overwhelmingly be about cash, financial contributions.

In general, do you think the same amount of effort, energy and/or teaching is done regarding missionary work ... as is put toward encouraging the believers to give money?

Maybe it's just me.

Destee

you're right Destee tithing is the church's hot topic (disregarding other more serious matters of life), but ask any of them where Jesus specifically tells the church to tithe. He doesn't.

and God does not say that he would barr one from heaven for not tithing.
how sick is the church doctrine becoming.

U CAN GET TO HEAVEN BY FAITH AND TRUST IN HE
U CAN PAY TITHE TO YA CHURCH HOME BUT BY GOD
AND DOING HIS WILL SURELY WILL ACCEPT U WITHIN
DA KINGDOM ............

wow ... thank yall for participating in this discussion with me.

What do you think should be the focus of the church ... the topic that should replace "giving your money to the church?" ... the one(s) that are most important?

I think lying and stealing. I think they both speak to the core of a person, requiring them to be true and honest with themselves ... so they can then be true and honest to God and others. Honesty is also the foundation on which most all other things stand, if they are done properly. But of course, I aint no preacher ... so don't mind me. :)

:heart:

Destee

tithing is an act of discipline not a means to getting into heaven. Tithing also involves more than just money but 10% of everything. It is a means to support the church in which you worship. In the Old Testament, the parishoners of such synagogues would bring 1/10th of their grain and wheat to the storehouse which was the place where the priest lived. This was for emergencies as well as helping in sustaining the worko fht echurch. One thing we must be careful of. Tithes are not paid to a pastor but the to continuing work of the church. Also if anyone wanted to pay tithes anf offerings then they must understand that tithed is the 1/10 that constitues discipline whereas offerings is anything obove and beyond tithes, which makes it going above and beyond. Example: If you make $300 a week before taexs and give $40 in the offering plate, then $30 is tithes and $10 is offering.

Hey J'hiah, actually Jesus speaks highly of tithing. As he addresses the Pahrisees he reminds them how they are only tithing in certain areas of their life. His response to them was simply telling them that why tithe in some areas and not all areas. Now He is not directly telling them to tithe only money but He is telling them to tithe in all areas of our lives...

Matthew 23 (KJV)
23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, and faith. These ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!


Matthew 23:23-24 (New Iving Translation)
23"How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income,[5] but you ignore the important things of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. 24Blind guides! You strain your water so you won't accidentally swallow a gnat; then you swallow a camel!

Just making clear that Jesus did speak of tithing but not in the formal manner which many would like to use it to abuse the congregation into paying money. Tithing is a discipline and one should not be guilted into it. Jesus was making clear to the Pharrisees that they were so strict and critical of everyone else and yet they could not see that they too are not perfect.

Thanks Dnommo for joining in :)

I'm going to take these words from your biblical quote:

... and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, and faith ...

which seems to provide evidence that all tithing is not counted the same. Yet, at most every single gathering of believers (and non believers) ... the opportunity to give money is provided by those who are leading the service. As though it is the "weightier matter."

It seems to be just a fact of "church life," one that is not going to change or be questioned to any great degree, at least, not by those who are doing the giving. To question "giving" to your church, could almost appear blasphemous (I think). When folk live by faith, it makes it easier for those providing the "spiritual food" to take advantage of them.

I kinda smiled Dnommo when I read your "$300 a week before taxes" ... do I tithe on the before or after taxes amount ... I remember "discussing that with God" ... :)

Another issue, that money brings into the church is "who gave the most this week or this month or on the building fund." Those folk are usually lifted up and above the rest of the congregation ... usually appointed to positions of leadership ... as though one can "buy" their spot in heaven. Woe unto the poor folk.

:heart:

Destee

thanx for joining in dnommo.

i read your reply and agreed that tithing is in fact an act of discipline.
and i believe wholeheartedly in giving to support your church be it money, cleaning, or any office they may have.

Destee, i bet you already knew this subject is a winding course :wink:

dnommo
Jesus did speak of tithing (of the law) while yet under the Mosaic law which commanded a tenth, so in order for him to have fulfilled it he himself had to obey it for it was applicable for him too.

but aren't we free from the law and the curses of the law(as written)??

once my lease is up and i have paid all of my dues, how am i obligated to pay anything??
i am free from that law, that bind and am free..
in Galatians it says Jesus has redeemed us from the curses of the law.

Besides when the Holy Spirit lives within you want to give more than a tenth.
should i be merciful for a tenth of a day, kind for a tenth of a day,
righteous for a tenth of a day??
of course not.

let's establish one point. is or is not tithing of the law??

thanx for your input.

j'hiah...

we always walk along the same path of understanding. I wholeheartedly honor and respect your views but we must look at what Jesus said. He did tell us that He did not come to destroy the law but to uphold it. It wanot the law that was destroying people but the way it was interpretted. Paul was right when he spoke about redeeming us of the curses of the law but when he spoke that he was writing to a church that was ingoring the proper understanding of the law while, in turn, caused the church to fall away from proper teaching.

Once again Jesus reminded us that if we are going to tithe then we must tithe in everything we do not just a few things. This is a discussion that has placed a choke hold on society.

You have spoken strong here bro' and i look forward to more discussion.

One.

Many of Jesus' parables were concerning monetary items and issues. I can't explain this any better than dnommo has already handled it with the scripture, but I could boil the matter down to a few thoughts....

First, tithing is NOT a determination of the state of one's soul in Jesus Christ (ie salvation). Tithing or Not Tithing won't keep a Christian out of heaven; but it WILL make things rather uncomfortable for Christians at the Judgement Seat of Christ...when we find out what we missed out on by how we obeyed the Word in this area.

No disrespect to some who have spoken on this issue, but I find it curious. On the one hand, you have the crowd saying what the church 'ought' to do for society...but some of that same crowd is against having the church properly funded, from a biblical (not from government, not from foundations, not from other sources than her members) standpoint.

Bills can't be paid for by air!

Then another sore point with me...our money...our income as a people...continues to rise every year, while the nation continues to go down in terms of earning power. Black people, as a whole, made 600 Billion $ in income for the last calendar year. GOD gave us the power to get that wealth...but not for ourselves...to bless others.

A dime and a dollar met in a local cash register at a local business. Said the dollar to the dime, "I'm worth more than you!"
Said the dime to the dollar: "Yeah, but I go to CHURCH more than you do!"

:toast:

So, some have not 'grown' to see the value of the tithe. That's where going to a bible-based, and bible-teaching church will do wonders. I find it intersting that MORE people are upset over the antics of their local church than over Enron, abortion, and other items.

I like how one Christian put it..."When I tithe, I give to God. If God's people mismanage, misappropriate, and misuse God's money, He is going to take it up with THEM...NOT with me!"

I used to be stone cold against tithing. Then I studied the whole concept, from OT to NT, paying particular attention to what Christ said about the matter. Now, I do it, out of love for Christ...and the blessings have returned. NOT only financial, but spiritual, family, employment, bible study, etc.

The blessing of tithing are NOT only financial...there are a whole lot of blessings associated with it.

Mike Ramey

:wave: Haaaaaaaaaaay Mike Ramey :wave:

I think this is the first time I've responded to what you've so graciously added to our Forum! Thank you so much for accepting my invitation, becoming a Columnist on our Forum and a Member of our Family :love:

Originally posted by Mike Ramey
First, tithing is NOT a determination of the state of one's soul in Jesus Christ (ie salvation). Tithing or Not Tithing won't keep a Christian out of heaven; but it WILL make things rather uncomfortable for Christians at the Judgement Seat of Christ...when we find out what we missed out on by how we obeyed the Word in this area.I'm not sure that I understand the above. If tithing or not tithing won't keep a Christian out of heaven, where does the uncomfortable part come into play? Are you suggesting that there are some "not so comfortable places" in heaven for those who didn't tithe? Please explain.

No disrespect has been taken by anything you've shared. I mentioned earlier that most anytime someone questions the necessity (in regard to salvation) of financial tithing ... they are looked at "curiously." It's simply a topic that is not usually met with warm embraces. To ask (a) the question does not mean one is against having the church properly funded. Those that believe, give tithes, do all that is required of them ... they are the church ... and even they are looked at curiously (perhaps even their salvation questioned) if they broach this topic.

I do agree that there is much value in giving, going above and beyond any dollar amount one may have contributed. In regard to people being more upset over the antics of the church ... well ... I think it may be this way because more (spiritually, things right and proper) is expected from the church than these businesses "in the world."

Financial tithing (or any), as a result of being moved by God to do so, is a wonderful and blessed occurrence ... and yes, the rewards are great and too numerous to mention. Unfortunately, it seems that much effort goes into encouraging folk to give their money, as though their salvation requires it ... while considerably less time (comparably) is spent on issues that salvation is dependent upon.

You tell me, what other topic is presented in every single service, with special times set aside specifically for it, often with 2 or 3 occurences? Even the topic, the wages of sin, is sometimes replaced by God's Mercy and Grace ... but never does "the giving of your money" lose its prominent position(s) in the service.

Again Mike ... thanks for being here!

:heart:

Destee

Destee, I wanted to thank you and the fam for making me feel welcome. :heart: This has GOT to be one of the hottest forum sites on the WEB! And, the cleanest. A tip of the hat to you and the fam!

O.K.--First off, IF your church is spending far too much time on the tithing issue, it MAY be time to find another church. In MY church, my Pastor has been there more than 20 years. In HIS view, if the Pastor doesn't teach the congregation what the Bible says about an issue, HE should not be shocked at the results.

Second, churches handle issues differently. That's the beauty of the church, as it is alive and kicking. I can't speak as to the leadership of your church, Destee, or churches you have visited. I can only go with what I know, and what I have seen. If ALL a church is talking about is money, then it MAY be time to move on. Let the Lord lead.

I've been in more than a few churches in my adult years. I was not 'raised' in the church. But, in my present church, I've got a pastor, Rev. Dr. Fitzhugh L. Lyons who has been preaching for 50 years, and has been leading by example for more than 20 years in our present church, Galilee M.B. Church, Indianapolis, Indiana.:) Y'all come, if you visit Naptown!

Anyway, I'll be brief--I'll post on the Judgement Seat of Christ later, because it is a subject that MOST Christians don't know about.

The biblical road on this topic is a simple one. If one's heart is NOT right (ie unconfessed sin, unforgiveness, having a disagreement with one's brother/sister in the Lord) then one SHOULD leave their gift on the altar, and make amends. God doesn't want your money to support His church if one's heart is not right. God wants obedience ahead of sacrifice.

However, I was watching the network news this evening, and the topic of money was all through it....

*Stock report--how much money folk made/lost
*Baseball talks break down--Money Issues.
*Baseball fans say ticket prices too high.
*Millions of dollars in damage from flooding in Germany.
*West nile virus causing problems
*Airlines want bailout or bankruptcy will take place.

And, this was a slow night on the national news scene.

To put it plainly, tithing IS a biblical topic. However, how some churches and individuals handle it, is not biblical.

Mike Ramey

Originally posted by Destee
Hello Everyone,

Just wondering ... can a person get to "heaven" if they don't pay tithes?

Destee

Yes. Paying tithes isn't a commandment, neither is a seat in heaven based on said.

kebah

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

Actually Kebah, it is a commandment. Both old testament and new. Though it does not have to be a monetary tithe. You have to do something worthy of entry.

I disagree with it being a commandment to US. It was spoken at a specific time, a specific amount, to a specific people, for a specific purpose.

kebah

kem,

where in the new testament is the church either commanded or under any law to tithe?
l prefer any direct scripture obligating the church to tithe.

Mike Ramey,
l believe in supporting the church wholeheartedly, but where in the Bible is the church obligated to tithe??