Peace and Blessings Family,

Would you represent yourself in court, and if so, under what circumstances?

I mean ... i'd figure it would make a difference what kind of court case you were defending.

I remember the Brother in New York, that killed the folk on the subway, he represented himself.

Under what circumstances would you represent yourself?

:heart:

Destee

Only under dire, extreme, or prohibitive circumstances would I personally represent myself in a court of law. No matter how well versed you are in case law, statute law and may also happen to know the circuit judges, will your odds of winning be in your favor if you represent yourself. Legal Aid is available in Canada, and here you can find yourself a decent lawyer, if you're familiar with who's who. Of course the service isn't free, it simply covers part of the cost of the lawyer for low income people. Even with this in mind, there is a trend in Canada for people to represent themselves, and it all has to do with cost.

"These are people who come to court without legal representation and sometimes without any legal advice, so the judge is faced with telling them what the law is, telling them what procedures are available to them, and trying to help that person while remaining as an impartial arbiter," McLachlin said."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/08/12/court-representation.html

"Hourly rates and flat fees for some services are still the norm for Canadian firms. The average hourly rate last year for a lawyer with 10 years experience ranged from $170 in Atlantic Canada to $260 in Ontario and Western Canada, according to survey by Canadian Lawyer magazine."
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?k=62912&id=bdf7c2aa-eeab-406f-966b-99970a876d31

The biggest challenge to self-representation is in my opinion, navigation of the system, knowing procedure. Knowledge of the law is good, but even armed with that, there is still a process of submissions, applications, and other nuances that can change the court ruling, and ultimately your future!
So, it is my recommendation to get a lawyer, and get one that is well known, highly respected in their field, successful in most of their cases (no one needs a loser for a lawyer) and connects with you. That can be a tall order when suddenly faced with charges and looking to free yourself from serious charges.

There's also a legal MLM, I don't have it's name right now, but for $40 / month it allows you access to phone consultations and lawyer referrals. There are inside bonuses depending on your membership. Although I personally didn't sign up for it, I can see it's value as a small business owner, or if I was at high risk to be in court often. :em0100:
Even when you have a lawyer though, it's like having a doctor. No one knows your case better than you. So, with that said, your lawyer is capable of representing you only to the degree of their expertise and your ability to comprehend the proceedings, what's at stake, and how to negotiate.


In the U.S, i have read that too many criminal proceedings involving African Americans and state appointed attorneys, are plea bargained. While this is time saving, and cost-effective it's not also in the best interest of the defendant. Getting a conviction is not as easy as it appears on television, the standard of beyond a shadow of a doubt, is implicit in it's mandate.

Civil proceedings are pretty basic, and like everyone can see on shows like Judge Judy, Joe Brown, etc... you can take your story before the court, be heard and get a result. Even in civil court hearings it's best to get some kind of legal consultation regarding your particular case.

In high school there are (at least where I lived) introductory courses about law, that briefly familiarize you with procedure and current civil laws, etc... it's a nice sounding board so that you know what's what.
Everyone ought to have some knowledge about their Federal and state laws. In Canada we have a Criminal Code which governs the country, not just the provinces. What that means is that there is the same punishment for the same offenses across the country. I like this system a lot, because it's straight forward and non-discriminatory. In contrast, I've read where different states like Texas for instance have the death penalty, and California has it's 3 strikes laws. Coincidentally, because of massive over crowding, and budget problems, California is looking to make some changes in it's penal system, whether that's offsetting prisoners to other states, private institutions, something has to be done with 20,000 inmates.

But before I launch into a different topic altogether, let me pull my attention back to the subject at hand, which is self-representation in a court of law.
Ultimately, unless I was coming off the Amistad and was completely new to the U.S would I venture such a feat. Of course if you do the crime, (or are accused of it), you better have the dime, because the harsher the offense the more money it's going to cost you and your family. That in itself would be a deterrent enough for me, but that's just my two cents.

Thank you Sister for sharing !!!! Great Stuff !!! :toast:

Hourly Rates $170 - $260 !!!! See ... whew. Who can afford that?!!! :eeek:

At those prices ... i'd hafta represent myself ... gosh ... see yall in 5-10 ... :bye:

You've given us a lot to think on Sister ... YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ... THANK YOU !!! :love:

:heart:

Destee

I wouldn't advise it unless a person REALLY has ALL their ducks in a row!

And even then, only depending on what kinda case it is.

There is an old law adage which says, "He who represents himself has a fool for a client."

And that's exactly what many people who try this end up being.

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

Following your directions but selecting your post, created this quick reply, which is to say, to whom was your post intended?

I wouldn't advise it unless a person REALLY has ALL their ducks in a row!

And even then, only depending on what kinda case it is.

There is an old law adage which says, "He who represents himself has a fool for a client."

And that's exactly what many people who try this end up being.




cherryblossom,

I sorta agree and then disagree, and here is why. Understanding myself to be an optimist looking for solutions, brings me to move in for a solution, if not, then automatically, we are part of the problem. So, we have a prison movement through Brothers Chat and spear-headed by $$RICH$$, what this says to me is this, why not capitalize upon those brothers that have studied the Law, and allow them to teach us how to defend ourselves.

This is the point, you can't have it both ways, ignorance of the law is no excuse, which means I need to learn me some law, which means, I then can represent myself, right? Right!

My sister friend, there are some sharp brothers incarcerated that have gain all the knowledge needed to represent us before a court of law, that I would trust. But more importantly, these same brothers, if provided a venue(Guest which venue I recommend, yeah you guessed it, Destee.com), in which to excel and pay back through teaching us what, How to represent ourselves in a Court of Law.

And oh by the way, Sisters Chat could also go to work with prison work ascertaining the qualified incarcerated sisters that have put time in on the writ of habes corpus in this system of jurisprudence we live under...Peace In, for real.

What say you cherryblossom?

Peace and Blessings Family,

Would you represent yourself in court, and if so, under what circumstances?

I mean ... i'd figure it would make a difference what kind of court case you were defending.

I remember the Brother in New York, that killed the folk on the subway, he represented himself.

Under what circumstances would you represent yourself?

:heart:

Destee




Great thread, great forum you have put together here Sister Destee, for real.

cherryblossom,

I sorta agree and then disagree, and here is why. Understanding myself to be an optimist looking for solutions, brings me to move in for a solution, if not, then automatically, we are part of the problem. So, we have a prison movement through Brothers Chat and spear-headed by $$RICH$$, what this says to me is this, why not capitalize upon those brothers that have studied the Law, and allow them to teach us how to defend ourselves.

This is the point, you can't have it both ways, ignorance of the law is no excuse, which means I need to learn me some law, which means, I then can represent myself, right? Right!

My sister friend, there are some sharp brothers incarcerated that have gain all the knowledge needed to represent us before a court of law, that I would trust. But more importantly, these same brothers, if provided a venue(Guest which venue I recommend, yeah you guessed it, Destee.com), in which to excel and pay back through teaching us what, How to represent ourselves in a Court of Law.

And oh by the way, Sisters Chat could also go to work with prison work ascertaining the qualified incarcerated sisters that have put time in on the writ of habes corpus in this system of jurisprudence we live under...Peace In, for real.

What say you cherryblossom?




Clyde, you made some good points; but I did qualify my statement by saying "only depending on what kinda case it is" and 'REALLY having one's ducks all in a row.'

However, I also must add that those same brothers and sisters with all of that law knowledge have had plenty of time to read up while they're in JAIL; and they also have a concentrated goal for that level of study and research, i.e. their own cases.

Also, your suggestion for Sisters Chat is wonderful! I'll be sure to pass that along tomorrow night...God willing and the creek don't rise.

Clyde, you made some good points; but I did qualify my statement by saying "only depending on what kinda case it is" and 'REALLY having one's ducks all in a row.'

However, I also must add that those same brothers and sisters with all of that law knowledge have had plenty of time to read up while they're in JAIL; and they also have a concentrated goal for that level of study and research, i.e. their own cases.

Also, your suggestion for Sisters Chat is wonderful! I'll be sure to pass that along tomorrow night...God willing and the creek don't rise.




cherryblossom,

You are correct, and there was no attempt to take anything away from your quote, because it was so on point; it was just the horse I decided to ride in on, so to speak:). For sure, your qualifier was-'REALLY having one's ducks all in a row.', for real. Lets make it happen......lol@cherryblossom...if the creek don't rise.

I would NEVER hire a lawyer, but I hope not to be in court at all.

I do agree, if you aren't on your stuff, you probably would be better off, staying far away from the courts, or.... hiring someone.

Consider this though:

"BAR attorneys FIRST duty it to courts, not client"- Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Section 4

"Attorneys are officers of the court." Shelsor v. Kaiser

When using an attorney one makes you a client, and thus a ward of the state.

Clients are wards of the court." Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Sections 2, 3

Wards of the court are infants and persons of unsound mind." Davis Committee v. Loney


So pretty much they are saying those who need to be represented are dummies, I think it a definitely a good thing to learn law, I've been studying it for the last 2 years and its a lot, but worth it..

Peace and Blessings Family,

Would you represent yourself in court, and if so, under what circumstances?

I mean ... i'd figure it would make a difference what kind of court case you were defending.

I remember the Brother in New York, that killed the folk on the subway, he represented himself.

Under what circumstances would you represent yourself?

:heart:

Desteeit is said that a person who represents himself has a fool for a client,and i prove that point everytime i try to win an argument with my wife.

I would NEVER hire a lawyer, but I hope not to be in court at all.

I do agree, if you aren't on your stuff, you probably would be better off, staying far away from the courts, or.... hiring someone.

Consider this though:

"BAR attorneys FIRST duty it to courts, not client"- Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Section 4

"Attorneys are officers of the court." Shelsor v. Kaiser

When using an attorney one makes you a client, and thus a ward of the state.

Clients are wards of the court." Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Sections 2, 3

Wards of the court are infants and persons of unsound mind." Davis Committee v. Loney


So pretty much they are saying those who need to be represented are dummies, I think it a definitely a good thing to learn law, I've been studying it for the last 2 years and its a lot, but worth it..

Brother Tyab, I'd like to question the context of the quotations here as I believe they are referring to Jurisprudence and may be relational to the duties that an attorney is bound to in court. I'm not familiar with the cases you've quoted but that's what I suspect.

cherryblossom,

I sorta agree and then disagree, and here is why. Understanding myself to be an optimist looking for solutions, brings me to move in for a solution, if not, then automatically, we are part of the problem. So, we have a prison movement through Brothers Chat and spear-headed by $$RICH$$, what this says to me is this, why not capitalize upon those brothers that have studied the Law, and allow them to teach us how to defend ourselves.

This is the point, you can't have it both ways, ignorance of the law is no excuse, which means I need to learn me some law, which means, I then can represent myself, right? Right!

My sister friend, there are some sharp brothers incarcerated that have gain all the knowledge needed to represent us before a court of law, that I would trust. But more importantly, these same brothers, if provided a venue(Guest which venue I recommend, yeah you guessed it, Destee.com), in which to excel and pay back through teaching us what, How to represent ourselves in a Court of Law.

And oh by the way, Sisters Chat could also go to work with prison work ascertaining the qualified incarcerated sisters that have put time in on the writ of habes corpus in this system of jurisprudence we live under...Peace In, for real.

What say you cherryblossom?




I'm a little confused here? Are you asking brothers that have successfully petitioned their cases to teach others how to defend themselves? Cuz I don't see how someone who is in prison can teach someone else how to stay out of it?
:11900:
I mean you wouldn't invite someone to perform surgery on you after reading and studying by themselves would you? Well, a good lawyer is an asset that's what I know. We may not like the fees they charge, but how do we put a price on Freedom?

I'm a little confused here? Are you asking brothers that have successfully petitioned their cases to teach others how to defend themselves? Cuz I don't see how someone who is in prison can teach someone else how to stay out of it?
:11900:
I mean you wouldn't invite someone to perform surgery on you after reading and studying by themselves would you? Well, a good lawyer is an asset that's what I know. We may not like the fees they charge, but how do we put a price on Freedom?




phynxofkmt,

My position is perfectly clear and cannot be made any clearer, but I will try to remove the confusion. Here we go there are some of our people that are in prison that have taken advantage of the time on their hands to study law. Before we go any further, do you deny this?

only in the bizarro world....
i dunno to many jury's that would
take a black man with loc's word as bond....

i'd get me a shiesty *** jew...i'd pay for it
but i wouldn't be talkin to bubba in the midnight hours....lolol

one love
khasm

I would NEVER hire a lawyer, but I hope not to be in court at all.

I do agree, if you aren't on your stuff, you probably would be better off, staying far away from the courts, or.... hiring someone.

Consider this though:

"BAR attorneys FIRST duty it to courts, not client"- Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Section 4

"Attorneys are officers of the court." Shelsor v. Kaiser

When using an attorney one makes you a client, and thus a ward of the state.

Clients are wards of the court." Corpus Juris Secundum, Chapter 7, Sections 2, 3

Wards of the court are infants and persons of unsound mind." Davis Committee v. Loney


So pretty much they are saying those who need to be represented are dummies, I think it a definitely a good thing to learn law, I've been studying it for the last 2 years and its a lot, but worth it..

Brother Tyab ... thanks for the above! Brother OldSoul told us this in one of his classes over the years! It was quite disconcerting, to learn that a lawyer's first and foremost duty is to the state, that is the one that is probably trying to send you to prison!

Isn't that krazee.

Under what other circumstances, do we hire someone to work for us, and their first obligation is to the one that is against us?

That is way krazee.

Thanks for sharing the specific law / verbage associated with this phenomena.

Much Love and Peace.

:heart:

Destee

Brother Tyab, I'd like to question the context of the quotations here as I believe they are referring to Jurisprudence and may be relational to the duties that an attorney is bound to in court. I'm not familiar with the cases you've quoted but that's what I suspect.

ohhhhh wait Brother Tyab ... there is an objection in the court ... hehehehe ... :)

I too am looking for how you might respond to Sister PhynxofKmt's question.

Good Stuff Yall! Thanks!

:heart:

Destee

but i wouldn't be talkin to bubba in the midnight hours....lolol

lol ... i feel you on this, as much as i love Bubba ... ohhh Lawd ... can we have a real attorney too?! :eeek:

But we don't wanna discount or discourage Bubba, cause you know, he may be great on the forensic side of things, finding evidence, stalking folk and stuff ... and may be the one that brings in that smoking gun piece of evidence, that secures our freedom!

But yeah ... i feel you ... oh my gosh ... i just hope we never need any of them for real, in this capacity.

Love You!

:heart:

Destee

Brother Tyab, I'd like to question the context of the quotations here as I believe they are referring to Jurisprudence and may be relational to the duties that an attorney is bound to in court. I'm not familiar with the cases you've quoted but that's what I suspect.

Sister Phynxofkmt,

I think its very clear what the duties of an attorney are, and their jurisdiction, it is rational to their job, especially being part of the BAR, a British fraternal order, taking oaths, and being licensed by the states, I don't disagree with that. But that doesn't change that they are first and foremost, loyal to the courts before you. In the legal dictionary cites provided, if read, it clear (at least to me). To become familiar with those cases and read the context of those quotes yourself, check out the nearest legal library. See for yourself. A juriprudent, really is anyone who wishes to understand the law deeply, or one who knows law.

I used to be into all the legal research, and was planning for some serious stuff, but since things have changed on te spiritual level, I really don't care much for it anymore.

Prevention is better than remedy, I rather not be in court at all or use spirital means to deal with it, but when it comes down to it, I rather study and decipher the law myelf, rather then be a client to a licensed lawyer. I've seen first hand, the duties of these agents of the court, LOL.

I have represented myself in the past..which did not turn out as well as I had expected...

I though, procrastinated on gathering important information, which I regret, since it left me standing in front of the judge babbling on, and on...

I too think that the court somewhat frowns on individuals representing themselves, since the Judge was appointed, the DA to represent the people of the state, the recorder, the deputy, on and on..its part of the system that is set in place..

while all you have,?... is lil old you, standing in front of this GIANT

what I would recommend to you fam,

is if you happen to need counsel, do take advantage of these 1hour free consultatons which are offered, and can be found on the net, and the yellow pages.

you can get however many you feel comfortable with...I for one could not afford a lawyer, and like I stated I waited, and wasted valuable time to gain info..

yes, a bit short sighted on my part...