I've posted this as a second thread to the discussion on self-hate because I would like to branch off away from the involvement of astrology as a tool for self-love.

Now, when I think of self-hate I think of any set of beliefs, behaviors and habits that destroy the individual self, whether that is the body, mind or spirit.
I can also look around my community, turn on a television set or read a paper and find thousands of other people who demonstrate their own patterns of self-hate. I mention this because I believe that in healing our African minds, bodies and spirits that we do not isolate ourselves in negativity, but recognize the universal challenges that affect people regardless of history and color.

Now, the patterns of self-hate within the African communities may begin to take on behaviors and habits that are recognizable to our shared sense of history, but this in itself does not make it a dis-ease belonging to us alone. We can however, identify those symptoms that pertain to us as a group.

For example, the term double consciousness created by William E.B. DuBois refers specifically to the African in America; a mental state of being forced to look at ourselves through the eyes of others, and to externally project a reality that is contradictory to the truth we hold inside.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee270/NubianGraphics1/Beme.gif http://scrapetv.com/News/Images/white%20face.jpg

According to the author of The Developmental Psychology of The Black Child, Amos N. Wilson, this double consciousness affects all Africans "regardless of income" and the black middle class "is the most schizoid of all'
"The black middles class, which now includes almost half of black families in America, is caught on the horns of a serious dilemma. In its effort to succeed according to white standards it has become increasingly alienated from its black roots and yet its rejection and non-acceptance by the white middle class whose acceptance it perceives as the necessary factor needed for authenticating its own existence, leaves it in a state of psychological limbo (this perception is also shared by the rest of black classes ... less consciously than is the case of the black middle class) p.54-55Therefore, it is quite safe and logical to conclude that money and status are not antidotes to self-hate, nor are they byproducts of self-love.

What can be universally understood about self-hate is that it stems from and is the product of unworthiness. A common misconception about self-hate is that self-love is the process by which one is healed, when in reality, self-love becomes the end product of one having healed their sense of unworthiness and self-hate.
http://www.cyquest.com/pathway/healing_self_hate.html

What can be learned from evaluating the ruling classes around the world is the sense of entitlement, the sense of worthiness. Allow us to use the Caucasian as a case in point. The Caucasian people emerged only a few thousand years ago from a geographical point on earth that was literally barren of resources, devoid of warmth, culturally undeveloped and fierce in it's environment. The Germanic tribes that we have now come to contend with in many ways came from destitution, poverty, lack, hardship, disease and violence. What many of them have acquired though is a sense that they were worthy of the what the world had to offer. Allow me to state before anyone feels heated and angry, that I am not advocating to a sense of false superiority, nor supporting the methods and destruction employed by the Germanic peoples. What I am illustrating is that while many African can claim a rich and abundant history of wealth, education, love, community, intelligence, etc... they today feel unworthy of their inheritance because of a 400 year blight on their souls and their genetic memory.

What we must understand and AGREE ON, is that exposure to external hate eventually becomes internalized, and this we cannot heal, we can only return to the source of which is comes. How we can combat external hate is to make every effort consciously to not accept or agree with the messages sent our direction. The hatred coming from another person is actually taken in and held deep within the soul. We have called this the DarkDeath, because that's how it feels when you hold another person's hatred energy within yourself.
It is here where we as Africans often disagree on collective healing. Some Africans contend that the we are solely responsible for our condition, as if racism which is institutionalized hate, is within our control. If that is the case then we become victims that further the promotion of shame within ourselves. Others believe that we can only fight hate with love, and will advocate for integration and co-operation. And then there are the Africans who believe that the sources of external hate must be abandoned entirely for the good of the whole. We see that many of our leaders have embodied these different approaches and have all contributed to our understanding of the issues.

http://www.exittheapple.com/BSorF/pierre/uploaded_images/obamaX_5-785893.jpg

http://www.blackartdepot.com/gallery/blackmotivationalposters/motivate29.jpg


We have grown immeasurably in the last 150 years since the emancipation of Africans in America, and we have unearthed and revealed the psychological conditioning that brought about our conditions today. What we can do now, is to apply what so many gifted scholars have learned and shared with us. Dr. Frances Cress Welsing advised us to stop the bickering, stop the arguing, stop the gossip of one another. Do these things in our individual lives shifts the energy in our communities and families.
Amos Wilson addresses changing our parental attitudes and child-rearing practices, which I believe deserve their own thread. And on a large level we can make the exodus away from external hate once we are armed with the ability to generate self-acceptance.

What will not and does not heal self-hate is the projection of it onto others. Blaming members of our race for marrying outside of it, for straightening their hair, wearing colored contact lenses, practicing the wrong faith, living in the wrong area codes will not heal the collective nor individual patterns or self-hate and unworthiness. In fact, the persecution of each others symptoms will only promote self-hate amongst us and push us further into the arms of those who will eventually reject us.

As Dr. Claude Anderson spoke of in Powernomics, "we are the only people who keep trying to integrate".
It is this continued attempt at integration that leaves us vulnerable to external hate becoming a part of ourselves, and it is this mindset that must be recognized and healed.

In researching this topic I came across a website that has some good information on the patterns of self-hate and the archetypes created by it. What I do know about rewiring the subconscious and other parts of awareness is that it takes some time to witness the shift in our lives, depending on our attachment to the behavior.

Personally, I still have habits of self-hate to overcome, but I believe in myself and my ability to reach the destiny of my higher self. I recognize that the patterns I've adopted from family, and society are the threads in the noose around my neck. I also recognize that the ability to cut myself free and fly far away from the hatred is my dedication to changing myself not others.

It is my sincere belief that as it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end... and it began with love....

http://www.cyquest.com/pathway/patterns_self_hate.html

My dear friend phynxofkmt,

To see these threads, and to know that our efforts to grapple with the original intent of Brother Tariq Muhammad's thread, does my heart good. This Self Hate complex is such that it will require all hands on deck, so to speak, and possibly a Forum all to itself, if we are to present a panacea.

So, if you don't mind, I will ask that a Forum on Self Hate be set aside so that threads and ideas can come together in concert to toward resolve. Is this okay with you phynxofkmt?

Also, are the two threads you have posted identical?

Thanks Clyde - I took care of the duplicate thread. :heart:

Thanks Clyde - I took care of the duplicate thread. :heart:





Thanks Zulile, I figured as much, and as always you are johnny on the spot:). Also, I have ask for a Forum on Self Hatred to include these two threads, there may be more as the problem of Self Hate is overwhelming. It wiil be easier to bridge points of common interest, which hopefully end in a plan to resolve.

I get the idea from what Destee has done with Group Think's forum.

My dear friend phynxofkmt,

To see these threads, and to know that our efforts to grapple with the original intent of Brother Tariq Muhammad's thread, does my heart good. This Self Hate complex is such that it will require all hands on deck, so to speak, and possibly a Forum all to itself, if we are to present a panacea.

So, if you don't mind, I will ask that a Forum on Self Hate be set aside so that threads and ideas can come together in concert to toward resolve. Is this okay with you phynxofkmt?

Also, are the two threads you have posted identical?



on a forum initiative, and I look forward to developments and creative problem solving

You have my support


on a forum initiative, and I look forward to developments and creative problem solving




phynxofkmt,

Thank you phynxofkmt for the support. As you see above, the recommendation has been made to Zulile. If nothng else, all threads pertaining to issues concerning Self Hate will be group together for quick access and ready reference within their own forum.

We continue to evaluate in the original thread how Astrology could have a scientific impact per Carter G. Woodson's plan of uplift in 1933. With the information you have provided here, my time will be well spent floating between the two threads. If there is any over-lapping of ideas comparatively, I will cut and paste my findings in both threads, thanks again, phynxofkmt, I to look forward to developing creative problem solving.

You have my support



on a forum initiative, and I look forward to developments and creative problem solving





phynxofkmt,

After a thorough read, several issues are found to be over-lapping, and are without known solutions. As mentioned, I will take the below quotes over to the original thread for incorporation into the process Astrologer4U and I are formulating, and will cut and paste back to this second thread for our discussion toward a panacea of Self-Hate.

Also, there seems to be distinct paths between the two threads. In the original we are pursuing Self-Hate as it applies directly to Black People, while here the focus turns to general Self-Hate among people with attention given to the individual.

For clarity, our intent, in the original, is not to define astrology as the “tool of self-love,” but more so as the science it is in conjunction with Carter G. Woodson’s plan to uplift the Negro. Nevertheless, our discussions here will continue as agreed in development, and creative problem solving. Below are the over-laps:

1. What we must understand and AGREE ON, is that exposure to external hate eventually becomes internalized, and this we cannot heal, we can only return to the source of which is comes. How we can combat external hate is to make every effort consciously to not accept or agree with the messages sent our direction.

2. Amos Wilson addresses changing our parental attitudes and child-rearing practices, which I believe deserve their own thread. And on a large level we can make the exodus away from external hate once we are armed with the ability to generate self-acceptance.

3. As Dr. Claude Anderson spoke of in Powernomics, "we are the only people who keep trying to integrate".
It is this continued attempt at integration that leaves us vulnerable to external hate becoming a part of ourselves, and it is this mindset that must be recognized and healed.



Above, I have highlighted the over-lapping issues, and their unfounded solutions. One of which is our internalizing of racialist external hate that hasn’t been healed. Two, we must change our parental attitude and our child rearing practices, and three, it is our continued effort at integration which mindset must be recognized as in need of healing.

on a forum initiative, and I look forward to developments and creative problem solving


First you will need to establish a return policy...


Astrologer4U

Thanks Clyde - I took care of the duplicate thread. :heart:





Zulile,

Is it possible to create a forum on Self-Hatred? Perhaps you overlooked my posted inquiry. If so, please combine this thread along with Tariq Muhammad's thread: The Origin and Ending of Self-Hate.

Clyde :heart: I have passed your request on to an Administrator, Sister Purple. I am certain she will respond to you directly when ready.
Zulile

Clyde :heart: I have passed your request on to an Administrator, Sister Purple. I am certain she will respond to you directly when ready.
Zulile





:heart: Zulile :heart:,

Thank you so much, Zulile.

What will not and does not heal self-hate is the projection of it onto others. Blaming members of our race for marrying outside of it, for straightening their hair, wearing colored contact lenses, practicing the wrong faith, living in the wrong area codes will not heal the collective nor individual patterns or self-hate and unworthiness. In fact, the persecution of each others symptoms will only promote self-hate amongst us and push us further into the arms of those who will eventually reject us.

I would appreciate it if someone would patiently explain to me why you consider personal choices of individuals who are happy with those choices can be considered "self-hate"? Who determines which choices are "right" and "acceptable" for the collective? Practicing the "wrong" faith??? Who dictates what is the "Right" faith for the collective? Are we bound to ALL of the styles, choices, values, etc. CHOSEN by our ancestors??? Why must any personal CHOICE that differ from that of our ancestors be considered a "symptom" of "self-hate". It is just a personal CHOICE, that effects that individual, if they are happy with it and it doesn't cause any tangible problem for the collective or society at large, we are free to make those choices.

It astounds me that we are bickering over and trying to solve "Symptoms" that are simply "Personal Choices" that the individual is happy with, doesn't create a tangible problem for the collective, and whom we are not the standard bearer to deem those personal choices as problematic.

IMO, If you want to bicker over and solve real tangible problems/symptoms, we should be working diligently to stop the "self-hate" mentalities that cause an average of 6,400 black men to kill other black men each year, or 70% of our children to be born out of wedlock and without the benefit of their father in their home. These are real and tangible problems that effect the collective. Self destructive lifestyles is real self-hate.

Clyde, you live just outside of Memphis, If you think my satistics are false, go to "The Med" on any given day, It doesn't matter...week day or week end. If you spend 24 hours there, I assure you, you will see at least 1, but probably 2 or 3 GSW (Gun Shot Wounds) come into the ER in a 24 hour period. If someone lives in or near N.O., they can go to ANY of the hospitals there that handle Trauma. If you spend 24 hours there, I assure you there will be multiple GSW's treated at ANY of the hospitals there you would choose to visit. (I know of both of these cases first hand, I am not making this stuff up or just accepting governmental stats without supporting facts)

My point in all of this is, if we really want a "Forum on Self-hate" or to truely resolve SYMPTOMS of self-hatred, we need to focus on tangible problems that effect the collective community in a tangible way, not just personal choices that we don't agree with.

brother Excel, and I am writing your reply. I ask for your patience though I need a little time to compile my response & I have a few responsibilities that require attention. Thank-you in advance for your understanding

brother Excel, and I am writing your reply. I ask for your patience though I need a little time to compile my response & I have a few responsibilities that require attention. Thank-you in advance for your understanding

No Problem at all. I am patiently awaiting. Thanks in advance for your response.

I would appreciate it if someone would patiently explain to me why you consider personal choices of individuals who are happy with those choices can be considered "self-hate"?

Truthfully brother Excel no one can answer that because every choice one make in the mist of happiness
is theres alone ....you can't sum self-hate from that only learn to respect them choices .

great question which only to me answer is you can't !

I would appreciate it if someone would patiently explain to me why you consider personal choices of individuals who are happy with those choices can be considered "self-hate"?

Truthfully brother Excel no one can answer that because every choice one make in the mist of happiness
is theres alone ....you can't sum self-hate from that only learn to respect them choices .

great question which only to me answer is you can't !

Well apparently there is a tremendous lack of respect towards others over personal choices that the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" deems inapropriate for the collective black people.

What is it with this "Forum to Overcome Self-hate" when all they are talking about is "personal choices" that they (The self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness") deem inappropriate for black people??????? AS IF someone had to "Overcome" a personal choice that they themselves are happy with, but the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" isn't.

They (The self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness) apparently could not care less about REAL Self-hatred, that is SELF-DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR as well as behavior that is destructive towards the collective black people.

Stuff like this below (in red) speaks of personal choices, yet the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" feel it is their business to have a "Forum" on it while completely ignoring the self-hatred of over 6,400 black men murdering other black men each year, or black men making black children then walking away from them.
Blaming members of our race for marrying outside of it, for straightening their hair, wearing colored contact lenses, practicing the wrong faith, living in the wrong area codes will not heal the collective nor individual patterns or self-hate and unworthiness. In fact, the persecution of each others symptoms will only promote self-hate amongst us and push us further into the arms of those who will eventually reject us.

So, according to the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness", personal choices that the individual is happy with is now a SYMPTOM of self-hatred. Oh, I get it, the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" gets to decide rather a black person is really happy or if they are just decieved into thinking they are happy and fulfilled. They also get to decide rather a black person retains the privilage of being "truely" Black or "Black enough" based upon compliance with their rules and bylaws.

The ability to go with or against the self-proclaimed rules and bylaws of the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness".

It's what us free people do!.....make choices. Everyone should try it, its very liberating.

The hunger of combative discourse has been fed...LOL :happens:

Destructional behaivors yet deem to a close do to us collectively still embeded deep in our past
One may state self-hate against another but yet not be aware of themselves , for it is not one to judge
I think if we stop pointing and start looking outside the black box we could see wit a better view
One can't hate without hate of themselve black is black no matter of the choices made
yes we all have a free verse of choices which we so choose our path and direction to move in
i myself is not seen as who i am but what da world want me to be to them , but i say
(I am that i am what i am of my free will i so choose my fate and happiness it makes me
no less or no more then my fellow brother or sister )
so you see the question remains unanswered because no one can judge anothers fate
love or choices
but often voice there concern sometime it can be hate but often just concerns

Not one living soul can say , but display lack of when it comes to choices only the one made them must live with them choices

I learn long ago to respect the choices made today's age and time is not like the royal 20's to the late 60's and early 70's .....
we in a new age and time we need to render from da past.

Destructional behaivors yet deem to a close do to us collectively still embeded deep in our past
One may state self-hate against another but yet not be aware of themselves , for it is not one to judge
I think if we stop pointing and start looking outside the black box we could see wit a better view
One can't hate without hate of themselve black is black no matter of the choices made
yes we all have a free verse of choices which we so choose our path and direction to move in
i myself is not seen as who i am but what da world want me to be to them , but i say
(I am that i am what i am of my free will i so choose my fate and happiness it makes me
no less or no more then my fellow brother or sister )
so you see the question remains unanswered because no one can judge anothers fate
love or choices
but often voice there concern sometime it can be hate but often just concerns

Not one living soul can say , but display lack of when it comes to choices only the one made them must live with them choices

I learn long ago to respect the choices made today's age and time is not like the royal 20's to the late 60's and early 70's .....
we in a new age and time we need to render from da past.


Very nice Rich.

I see no combative discourse openers, in this at all. However, experts lurk...hehehe


Very nice way of putting things.


Astrologer4U

Destructional behaivors yet deem to a close do to us collectively still embeded deep in our past
One may state self-hate against another but yet not be aware of themselves , for it is not one to judge
I think if we stop pointing and start looking outside the black box we could see wit a better view
One can't hate without hate of themselve black is black no matter of the choices made
yes we all have a free verse of choices which we so choose our path and direction to move in
i myself is not seen as who i am but what da world want me to be to them , but i say
(I am that i am what i am of my free will i so choose my fate and happiness it makes me
no less or no more then my fellow brother or sister )
so you see the question remains unanswered because no one can judge anothers fate
love or choices
but often voice there concern sometime it can be hate but often just concerns

Not one living soul can say , but display lack of when it comes to choices only the one made them must live with them choices

I learn long ago to respect the choices made today's age and time is not like the royal 20's to the late 60's and early 70's .....
we in a new age and time we need to render from da past.

In this case, there shall be no need for "Forums" on "Overcoming Self-hate" insomuch as personal choices are concerned.

It all depend on how we accept the term self-hate .....how we individually see it
Self-hatred, self-loathing, also sometimes autophobia refers to an extreme dislike of oneself, or being angry at oneself. The term is also used to designate a dislike or hatred of a group to which one belongs. For instance, "ethnic self-hatred" is the extreme dislike of one's ethnic group. Accusations of self-hatred are often used as an hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attack, Self-hatred is also a prime feature of avoidant of a personality
disorder.
So often we as individuals display the self enflicked term of greed toward another fellow human being

We as people of color / black need to divide our emtrapment mental thinking from from the reality of the world today and learn to enforce our minds to find solutions to our many deep problems range from depression to poverty and the struggle of us as a whole collectively , it is in my power to hope that we change our structure of thinking so we can face the high rise of problems at our doorstep....Remeber the word
SELF-HATE......it mean no more then you would hate self ...well i love me therefore i love my people every last one don't matter of there choices / what they done or where they going .
To over come self hate to me and this me .....Learn to love self before you can love another self hate is only a term used to gain a battle / war or be combative or argumental

we find self hate throughout being argumental which most will state
an (inductive argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_argument)) asserts that they feel is the real truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises. so again self hate is within the individual whom so hate themselves....

Who am i to judge when judgement is not mines to do so , but i own the rights to love and embrace my choices beyond copmpare
be whom you are and not what others want you to be brother .
SO NO WE DON'T NEED FORUMS TO SELF HATE ......BUT ONE TO LOVE THOU SELF TO LOVE ANOTHER .

It all depend on how we accept the term self-hate .....how we individually see it
Self-hatred, self-loathing, also sometimes autophobia refers to an extreme dislike of oneself, or being angry at oneself. The term is also used to designate a dislike or hatred of a group to which one belongs. For instance, "ethnic self-hatred" is the extreme dislike of one's ethnic group. Accusations of self-hatred are often used as an hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attack, Self-hatred is also a prime feature of avoidant of a personality
disorder.
So often we as individuals display the self enflicked term of greed toward another fellow human being

SO NO WE DON'T NEED FORUMS TO SELF HATE ......BUT ONE TO LOVE THOU SELF TO LOVE ANOTHER .


Lets be more specific here, as I am not sure we are on the same sheet of music. I understand your definition of self-hatred, or self-loathing in its general form as being an "extreme dislike of own ethnic group". I have no problem with that definition. I do, however, have a problem with any self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" determining that certain behaviours or choices that an individual black man or woman makes being CLASSIFIED as "self-hatred" or "self-loathing" if that behaviour is not destructive to the collective and if that choice is one that the individual himself is pleased with. If a sister wants to straighten her hair or wear colored contact lenses, that is a fashion CHOICE that she has made and no Self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" has any right to deem those CHOICES as self-hatred. Again, we are not bound to the CHOICES of our ancestors or to the Choices of the majority of our contemporaries. We are all FREE!! Freedom is not restrictive to the choices of others, we all get to be ourselves as long as we are not hurting others. Therefore, NOBODY, gets to look down their noses at us for choices we make and deem those choices as self-loathing.

So, specifically, what choices, actions, behaviors are you trying to classify as self-hatred, self-loathing, or autophobia? Can I murder a fellow brother for steping on my shoes or a 5 dollar loan and not be considered as displaying symptoms of self-hate????? If I marry a white woman (as I did), is that considered as displaying symptoms of self-hate??? Lets be specific as to what, exactly, we are trying to consider symptoms of self-hate, because as I said, from all I can tell the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" is trying to attack, criticized, diagnose, and medicate the freedom of Choice of grown black men and women. Brothers and Sisters, be it known, WE ARE NO LONGER SLAVES, but FREE.....which includes FREEDOM TO DIFFER IN OPINIONS OF WHAT IS RIGHT OR DESIRABLE FOR ONES SELF.

SO NO WE DON'T NEED FORUMS TO SELF HATE ......BUT ONE TO LOVE THOU SELF TO LOVE ANOTHER .

Again, to clearify my point, I did not question whether we needed forums TO self-hate, but whether we needed one on "Overcoming" "Self-hatred" insumuch as personal choices are concerned. In other words, why does one need to "overcome" exercising their freedom of choice??? Is it because the "Self-appointed" CoBC determined that their motive for that choice was "self-hate"?

Clyde :heart: I have passed your request on to an Administrator, Sister Purple. I am certain she will respond to you directly when ready.
Zulile





Zulile and PurpleMoons,

After reading the direction the thread seems to be going, and in the absence of Purple creating a Forum as I had asked, let me make clear this point.

Whoever makes the final decision should understand that a serious attempt at drawing up a plan to help identify Self-Hate is in process, and is a tribute to an on going problem within our community that needs addressing, is in addition to and continues in the mode of past threads. KWABENA recently searched for and supplied a very invaluable link.

It is this time consuming element of not bringing togther all relevant efforts toward solving the issue of self hate that speaks to creating a Forum. It is as simple as that. Bring all disucssions under one umbrella, if for nothing else, easy access.

This covers all past attempts and future attempts to discuss and resolve the issue of self hate(unless Destee has made a decision to not allow any more discussions on the subject). That is the purpose and will someone please let me know the outcome.

Accusations of self-hatred are often used as an hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attack.

This is exactly my point, Rich. There are multiple cases of this very thing in response to several points I have made here. Rather than addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against my claim or even FOR THEIR claim, they hurl accusations of "self-hate". The process of proving their claim or disproving mine is thereby subverted. The smoke screen is then deployed to change the subject to a discussion about personal choices I, as a full grown man, have made, which are completely irrelevent to the subject at hand.

So, here we are with a larger smoke screen to deem the "problem of self-hate" as "overwhelming". So complex is this supposed problem of self-hate, that it requires "all hands on deck". As far as I know, the only form of "self-hate" I have seen addressed is the freedom to oppose the self-appointed CoBC. To my knowledge, there has been no real attempt at all by the self-appointed CoBC to address REAL SELF-HATE, the type that is destructive to the individual and the collective community. To be clear, specific examples would include failure to embrace education, men abandoning their responsibility to their children, and black men taking the lives of 6,400 black men each year (17 per day).

I can hardly wait to see what the self-appointed CoBC decides after this "serious attempt at drawing up a plan to help identify self-hate".

because as I said, from all I can tell the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" is trying to attack, criticized, diagnose, and medicate the freedom of Choice of grown black men and women. Brothers and Sisters, be it known, WE ARE NO LONGER SLAVES, but FREE.....which includes FREEDOM TO DIFFER IN OPINIONS OF WHAT IS RIGHT OR DESIRABLE FOR ONES SELF.

This so call self appointed council of black correctness I'm not even clear on
who are these very ones you speak of that attack and infect the responses of
anothers choice ? who are they ?

but whether we needed one on "Overcoming" "Self-hatred"

Again i say No because it's a freedom of choices made by individuals themselves, it is clear that
everyone process in their own thinking yet we still a global oneness as a community
and no one
speaks for the whole collectively.

your choice to love and marry whomever is your freedom of choice and no it's not a symptom of self hate , but your free will which you choose.

As i said before we all have different views how we see another this thinking will not change it's like a program set in today's living / society

We have to start looking outside the black box of mental thinking and agree to accept the choices of our brothers and sisters
which is there choices to do so as an individual, so collectively we need to respect anothers chioce
even if we don't agree as individuals

self hate is avoidant of a personality disorder.

excel10K, you seem to be hell bent on people giving a hoot about who you are married to. Please understand that I for one do not care that your wife is white. My problem with you is, I feel that your opinion about the black community, and self destructive behavior is bias because you don't live in the black community and your family is not fully made up of blacks. By choice your family is nut fully black I might add...

Therefore, you opinions about self destructive behavior in the black community based on what you perceive as a black family, to me, is bias.

You don't have to go around telling people that your wife is white but when the question was first asked to you, "Is your wife white" you made up excuses for why you would not answer that question, you even turned against sky763 who went out of his way to befriend you, when she or he asked you the question as well. It was only after Truthtothecause so cleverly manipulated you into answering the question, that you saw already that you had been busted and you had no choice, so you answered the question yes, your wife is white.

Not to mention how you took down the link in your profile which Sky 763 was able to capture before you took it down, and that is where he saw a picture of your family for which he posted for all to see for themselves.

That whole shenanigans made you really look bias and also made you look as though you were aware, that you are bias. If not, why did you not come clean the first time the question was asked? Also, why did you take the link down, after the question was asked? Why did you turn on sky763?


Everyone was thinking you were white at first, but when it came clear that you were in fact black, I knew something else was up because your opinions, in my opinion, had some forms of white wash. So, the next thing had to be adopted by whites, or white wife.



I am not trying to bring up past events but it is clear that you are not over the past because every thread you post to, you mention your choices and your wife. I am assuming that it must really bother you so you are trying to help yourself from feeling this way. So, you look for answers. The truth shall set you free so I am telling you the truth.

I personally feel that you are my brother and nothing can change that at all. I do have love for you, otherwise I as well as others here at destee.com, would have stopped dealing with you long ago.


Truth be told, you are fun to go at it with but when it becomes clear that you do not want to be open to other peoples feelings and thoughts, even if it means that your choices and opinions are incorrect, it only furthers that your motives are to take, and not give. When you show that kind of selfishness, people are not going to feel as though you are one of them.





Astrologer4U

This so call self appointed council of black correctness I'm not even clear on
who are these very ones you speak of that attack and infect the responses of
anothers choice ? who are they ?

"Self-appointed" "Council of Black Correctness" or "CoBC" for short, is the nickname I have given to all of my fellow black brothers and sisters who think it is within their rightful place to attack or otherwise criticize brothers and sisters whose personal choices are not within rules and bylaws they (The CoBC) have deemed "correct" for all black people.

This CoBC is not a real entity, but my poking fun at the audacity of some blacks who think their opinion of other blacks choices should be the standard for all black people.

Specifically, who are they? Well there are several, but since you asked I will be specific. Astrolger4U is the president, IONLYSPEAKTRUTH is the chairman of the board, Jamesfrmphilly is a member in good standing, Mazimtaim is the Vice President. My friend Clyde is on the steering committee to help define "How Black People Must Think" and to combat the overwhelming problem of Black People demonstrating the obviously self-loathing trait of thinking for themselves. There are several other members in good standing, but I think you get my drift. Each of these members of the CoBC specialize in Ad Hominem smoke screens and are under the dillusion that unless black people bow to their(The CoBC) self-imposed "Rules for truely Black People" they get to exclude them from "true" blackness, or prescribe cures for the non-compliant "symptoms".

As a testiment to the factual basis of my assertion that they specialize in Ad Hominem smoke screens watch closely to see if there are any fact based defenses presented from any CoBC member.


but whether we needed one on "Overcoming" "Self-hatred"

Again i say No because it's a freedom of choices made by individuals themselves, it is clear that
everyone process in their own thinking yet we still a global oneness as a community
and no one
speaks for the whole collectively.

your choice to love and marry whomever is your freedom of choice and no it's not a symptom of self hate , but your free will which you choose.

As i said before we all have different views how we see another this thinking will not change it's like a program set in today's living / society

We have to start looking outside the black box of mental thinking and agree to accept the choices of our brothers and sisters
which is there choices to do so as an individual, so collectively we need to respect anothers chioce
even if we don't agree as individuals

self hate is avoidant of a personality disorder.

I don't think you can convince any member of the "Self-appointed" "CoBC" of these truths you have proclaimed here. They are still under the dillusion that me, or other Blacks, exercising freedom of choice (an act often exercised by FREE people everywhere) is something they can deem unacceptable for black people.

excel10K, you seem to be hell bent on people giving a hoot about who you are married to. Please understand that I for one do not care that your wife is white. My problem with you is, I feel that your opinion about the black community, and self destructive behavior is bias because you don't live in the black community and your family is not fully made up of blacks. By choice your family is nut fully black I might add...

Well, Madame Sister President, you claim you don't care that my wife is white, but you use that as your basis for disqualifying the FACTS I have submitted. I have submitted FACTS that you have used Ad Hominem smoke screens to avoid. Facts are not a bias, they are truthful statements that must be accepted or rejected based on the information itself, not the messenger.

What do you mean I don't live in the black community???? Roughly 60% of my neighbors are black? At what percentage does my community qualify as black under CoBC rules and bylaws??? My family is not made up of blacks???? are you kidding me??? Can you say 59 proud years of powerful unity The Taylor Family Heritage (http://familylobby.com/taylorunity/default.asp)

gotta go for now Madame President, I will continue soon.

Well, Madame Sister President, you claim you don't care that my wife is white, but you use that as your basis for disqualifying the FACTS I have submitted. I have submitted FACTS that you have used Ad Hominem smoke screens to avoid. Facts are not a bias, they are truthful statements that must be accepted or rejected based on the information itself, not the messenger.

What do you mean I don't live in the black community???? Roughly 60% of my neighbors are black? At what percentage does my community qualify as black under CoBC rules and bylaws??? My family is not made up of blacks???? are you kidding me??? Can you say 59 proud years of powerful unity The Taylor Family Heritage (http://familylobby.com/taylorunity/default.asp)

gotta go for now Madame President, I will continue soon.



I assume that when you return, you will be responding to the rest of what I posted instead of the parts, for which you think will get you off the hook...hehehe


Normally, if you had saw what you deem as a loophole opener, for combative discourse, (for which you think you will win or further combat) you would have responded to the entire post. If when you return, and you do not respond to my post and it's entirety, I will not waste my time responding to your above quote. Refer to this as a smoke screen all you want. My offer will still stand.



Astrologer4U

Self-appointed" "Council of Black Correctness" or "CoBC" for short, is the nickname I have given to all of my fellow black brothers and sisters who think it is within their rightful place to attack or otherwise criticize brothers and sisters whose personal choices are not within rules and bylaws they (The CoBC) have deemed "correct" for all black people.

This CoBC is not a real entity, but my poking fun at the audacity of some blacks who think their opinion of other blacks choices should be the standard for all black people.

I understand your point , to sum it up on such makeship group it is in each and as
individuals who so deem to choose what they so believe is their choice as well as
yours or mines
this will be a division where we need to agree that we don't agree and move forward
to a collective structure to fight the bigger task we face as people of color .

Not a one of us can set law to anothers choice nor can myself as well any say what
is black enough or not black ......No matter of our choices we all make them for the good to ourselves.

Above all the makeship of correction everyone you speak on have there rights of choice or thinking.
It holds no weight ! just consumption of consuming , I find it hard to accept that it holds any water .

self hate is defined by thin lines of thinking , we need to let go of that and redefined our direction we all are
people who are affected by some level of hate , displayed against us we are our
worse fold .

collectively outside the box we need to forget the greed of hate and habor the fact of lovin to manifest solutions to our problem that's bigger at hand

The solutional key to self hate is to not judge anothers reason or choices but learn to agree we are
still people of color working in the direction to curb poverty / dismay in homes and stop so much
black on black crime along side so many other things we struggle at , lift the next fellow man or sister
teach thy children and worry not of self hate which will forever be an individual scope
this will be an on going thing
who are the bigger man is the key , that can look beyond the wall of water paint !

We must over come self hate is simple by respecting the choices of others and not try to discredit who and what one is or maybe.

I really don't see the big picture here to why and nor reason , is it because of one's choices seem fairly off base.

@excell10K


What's up, please don't resort to your familiar smoke screen of letting the thread move along without a response from you to a post that challenges you to give up your fits of "combative discourse" and wave the red flag. I am referring to this post....http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=561666&postcount=28



I am not going to let the thread viewers of this thread forget about that post, so I suggest you don't forget about it either. You have been stationary in this thread viewing it for the past couple of hours. You have responded to Rich, but you have yet to have respond to the post in the above link in it's entirety....




Astrologer4U

Therefore, you opinions about self destructive behavior in the black community based on what you perceive as a black family, to me, is bias.

Self destructive behavior is not an opinion, it is a fact of life. Why do you oppose my presenting factual statistics and suggesting we confront those with the intent to resolve them?


You don't have to go around telling people that your wife is white but when the question was first asked to you, "Is your wife white" you made up excuses for why you would not answer that question, you even turned against sky763 who went out of his way to befriend you, when she or he asked you the question as well. It was only after Truthtothecause so cleverly manipulated you into answering the question, that you saw already that you had been busted and you had no choice, so you answered the question yes, your wife is white.
First, our website with my and my family photo has been up since I announced the CRM and the initial planned launch. I personally directed people to that website. (I was even asked not to do that) The fact that my wife is white was readily available and in no way hidden from the beginning.

Furthermore, I had asked you several questions which you refused to answer. Rather than answer my questions, you asked me "Is your wife white", to which I told you that if you answered my question, I would answer yours. That is only fair. I would have happily answered your question had you not been so evasive with me. Truetothecause did not "cleverly manipulate" me into answering the question. I answered his question because he/she had answered the only question I had addressed to him/her. Since there was no evasivness, I had no poblem answering for him the exact same question I had refused to answer for you. Obviously you would get the answer at the same time he did, but it was the principle that I would gladly answer for him what I would not answer for you.

Sky763 had not "befriended" me, and had especially not "gone out of his way" to do so. That was such a thin veil, I realized early on that Sky763 was "frontin' "


Not to mention how you took down the link in your profile which Sky 763 was able to capture before you took it down, and that is where he saw a picture of your family for which he posted for all to see for themselves.
I am not sure what link you are talking about in my profile. I posted a link to the website in previous threads inviting people to go there. My family photo was there all along and I WANT people to go to that website and openly discuss the material therein. Why in the world would I post family photos online if I didn't want people to see it?????????????????????


That whole shenanigans made you really look bias and also made you look as though you were aware, that you are bias. If not, why did you not come clean the first time the question was asked? Also, why did you take the link down, after the question was asked? Why did you turn on sky763?
Like I said, I only refused to answer because you evaded my questions and told you at the time that I choose not to answer that it was because you had not answered my question. That was your shenanigans, evading my questions but expecting me to answer yours.....life just doesn't work that way. I most certainly did not take a link down after the question was asked....I don't know where you got that from. Again, go back to the thread about the original announcement and you will see that I have invited people to that website previously...and, as I said, that photo has always been there for anyone to see...from the very begining to this very day.

Why did I "turn on sky763"? I did not "turn" on sky763. I have dealt with sky763 appropriately from begining to end. When sky763 was faking friendly, I was cooperative, when sky763 was obviously deceptive and showing his true colors, I did not choose to play his/her games. Although I seen through the thin veil of sky763, I was appropriate in my response at all stages.


Everyone was thinking you were white at first, but when it came clear that you were in fact black, I knew something else was up because your opinions, in my opinion, had some forms of white wash. So, the next thing had to be adopted by whites, or white wife.


I have held my current opinions since about 17 or 18 years of age. After seeing the world outside the small box of the neighborhood I grew up in.


I am not trying to bring up past events but it is clear that you are not over the past because every thread you post to, you mention your choices and your wife. I am assuming that it must really bother you so you are trying to help yourself from feeling this way. So, you look for answers. The truth shall set you free so I am telling you the truth.

This thread is about "Overcoming Self-hate" and suggest that the "problem of self-hate is OVERWHELMING" and is so complex a problem that it needs "all hands on deck" to resolve. Considering that "self-hate" is one of many diagnosis that have been hurled at me it is relevent that I should respond in the context of those accusations.

Do I really strike you as a person "bothered" by what others think of me?? This clearly shows that you just don't get it. I am not here to win friends. I want to stop us from killing one another, I want us to recognize the benefits of embracing education and I want our children to thrive to their potential from intact families with Mom, Dad, & their biological children. That is the ideology that I promote. It doesn't bother me if I have to confront a little nay saying or even name calling, it is nothing to me. I am a self-sufficient and strong willed man. You know this.


I personally feel that you are my brother and nothing can change that at all. I do have love for you, otherwise I as well as others here at destee.com, would have stopped dealing with you long ago.
I am addictive.


Truth be told, you are fun to go at it with but when it becomes clear that you do not want to be open to other peoples feelings and thoughts, even if it means that your choices and opinions are incorrect, it only furthers that your motives are to take, and not give. When you show that kind of selfishness, people are not going to feel as though you are one of them.

Astrologer4U
Well, of course I'm fun.
Most who have had conflict with me expect me to accept everything they say when my life experiences and interactions with people have given me a different mindset. They demand that I accept their explainations yet are unwilling to connect the dots or drill down into the details that would examine our opposing points of view. "Either believe me, or you are a self-hater" is essentially what they are saying. "Don't make me justify my claim, do your own research and you will think like I do" is another common song....essentially declaring that I haven't researched my positions but am taking my cues from some white guy behind a curtain. "Hey Mr. White guy, what should I think about this??"

So the end result is rather than discuss the merit of their claim, they throw smoke screens and Ad Hominem attacks against me as a person. That is how the whole "what color is your wife" question came up on the first place. "Hey, he doesn't think like I think, he must be a self-hater" Never mind the merit of your claim, lets find out who this guy is who would dare think differently than the CoBC allows.

I am not going to let the thread viewers of this thread forget about that post, so I suggest you don't forget about it either. You have been stationary in this thread viewing it for the past couple of hours. You have responded to Rich, but you have yet to have respond to the post in the above link in it's entirety....


I stepped away to have a sit down meal with my family, as we do each day. Is that OK with you Sister Madame President??? You knew I was going to be getting back to you and you also know it is no challenge for me to reply to your misguided claims.

Now, lets get back to the subject of this thread. "Overcoming self-hate", or more accurately "Overcoming the exercise of free choice"

What specific actions or behaviors would constitute self-hate? All claims I have seen of self-hate are simply choices that differ from that of the person making the claim. Can someone clearify exactly what would consitute self-hate so that we can know if it really is such an "overwhelming problem" and so that we can "Overcome" it? I am all about solving problems, especially overwhelming ones.

Brother Excel you have a beautiful strong family tree , without any doubt you are our brother , it was nice
to see your family background ......

On a short note these members you address are members of individuals not a form group within
this community there is no Madame President, i believe her name is Astrologer4U
do address her in that fashion
this way we stay in a free fanfair ,but over all self hate ....well to me is petty base of someone's choices / opinion

Brother Excel you have a beautiful strong family tree , without any doubt you are our brother , it was nice
to see your family background ......

On a short note these members you address are members of individuals not a form group within
this community there is no Madame President, i believe her name is Astrologer4U
do address her in that fashion
this way we stay in a free fanfair ,but over all self hate ....well to me is petty base of someone's choices / opinion

Will do, but for the record, I am sure she knows I am just picking with her. I would think she has a smile on her face when she reads it. If not, it was intended to produce a smile.

I am addictive.

Addictive in annoying way. Like a pimple that won't go away. The addiction to pick at it, and pick at it, in an attempt to relieve the annoyance. Just to figure out that the pimple is more uglier from picking at it, and 100 times more annoying.



Most who have had conflict with me expect me to accept everything they say when my life experiences and interactions with people have given me a different mindset. They demand that I accept their explainations yet are unwilling to connect the dots or drill down into the details that would examine our opposing points of view. "Either believe me, or you are a self-hater" is essentially what they are saying. "Don't make me justify my claim, do your own research and you will think like I do" is another common song....essentially declaring that I haven't researched my positions but am taking my cues from some white guy behind a curtain. "Hey Mr. White guy, what should I think about this??"

You should have realized by now that you do the same thing.

Any way, If you had no problem with being forth coming from the beginning as you claim, about your wife's race, you would have answered the question as you normally do and then you would have asked your normal question in return "what does that have to do with anything?" I answered your questions, not to your satisfaction, but I answered your questions. You want to be satisfied, but you don't satisfy or even compromise. At least people have been more than reasonably patient with you. What do you do in return, take joy and comfort in combative discourse, so much that you pat yourself on the back and refer to yourself as "addictive" You flatter yourself at the convenience of your need to feed off of combative discourse. I imagine that you are not as happy as you claim. If you were, you wouldn't keep being concerned about what you perceive as people referring to you as a black man of self hate because you are married to a white woman. Why do you care what people think? Don't say you don't care because each thread you post to, you lead people into giving you an opener, to bring up your dislike for people judging you based on particularly, your white wife.


Any way, it was not easy figuring out where the picture was in that linck, so I don't believe that you posted the link for people to go and see you and your family. You originally posted the link with the intent to promote your launching program.

As far as Sky763, he or she did nothing to you. It was when he or she became curious about why you had not initially answered the question, that is when you began to question his or hers sincerity.


Any way, I will leave you to this thread cause I do not wish to further contribute to turning this thread into you and the issues you have with peoples opinions that oppose yours. Just know that I don't care about how you are married to...why should I? I don't want you...hehehe

What specific actions or behaviors would constitute self-hate? All claims I have seen of self-hate are simply choices that differ from that of the person making the claim. Can someone clearify exactly what would consitute self-hate so that we can know if it really is such an "overwhelming problem" and so that we can "Overcome" it? I am all about solving problems, especially overwhelming ones.


safe hate won't be clearify when every individual has there own views and choices
the answer to me would be are choices made, be so disdrain to the point that we can't work together as people ??

Then I say no.....we need to accept and respect another human being choices
because this fight is all our fight like it or not ....so the question is will we stand together in this battle
to come to a solution to the problem .
http://destee.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

What specific actions or behaviors would constitute self-hate? All claims I have seen of self-hate are simply choices that differ from that of the person making the claim. Can someone clearify exactly what would consitute self-hate so that we can know if it really is such an "overwhelming problem" and so that we can "Overcome" it? I am all about solving problems, especially overwhelming ones.


safe hate won't be clearify when every individual has there own views and choices
the answer to me would be are choices made, be so disdrain to the point that we can't work together as people ??

Then I say no.....we need to accept and respect another human being choices
because this fight is all our fight like it or not ....so the question is will we stand together in this battle
to come to a solution to the problem .
http://destee.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

I'm with you bro. Lets go fix some stuff.

...and, thanks for the compliment on my family. I take great pride in my heritage. I also take great pride in the fact that we have had 59 consecutive annual family reunions. 2009 will make the 60th consecutive family reunions. This past year we had well over 400 people in attendance from all over the nation. From Washington state to Washington D.C., the Taylor family faithful came to celebrate and honor our past and anticipate our future.

Zulile and PurpleMoons,

After reading the direction the thread seems to be going, and in the absence of Purple creating a Forum as I had asked, let me make clear this point.

Whoever makes the final decision should understand that a serious attempt at drawing up a plan to help identify Self-Hate is in process, and is a tribute to an on going problem within our community that needs addressing, is in addition to and continues in the mode of past threads. KWABENA recently searched for and supplied a very invaluable link.

It is this time consuming element of not bringing togther all relevant efforts toward solving the issue of self hate that speaks to creating a Forum. It is as simple as that. Bring all disucssions under one umbrella, if for nothing else, easy access.

This covers all past attempts and future attempts to discuss and resolve the issue of self hate(unless Destee has made a decision to not allow any more discussions on the subject). That is the purpose and will someone please let me know the outcome.



Greetings Brother Clyde!

I apologize for the late response, unfortunately we won't be adding any new forums at this time. However, i would like to make a possible suggestion. If you like and Sister phynxofkmt agrees, i can add this topic to the" Group Think forum (http://http://destee.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=290)." This way you can easily access all working projects in process from this point on.

What do you say? Would you like for me to do this?

:heart:

yes brother we have so much work to do on problems that is hitting us hard and rapidly
I too have a strong family bond , my family is in our 66th reunion we indeed focus on
the past unbringing to the future of our family direction

so remember self hate is a individual own choice one we can't change , but learn to work collectively as a people.

Much love and respect brother Excel

yes brother we have so much work to do on problems that is hitting us hard and rapidly
I too have a strong family bond , my family is in our 66th reunion we indeed focus on
the past unbringing to the future of our family direction

so remember self hate is a individual own choice one we can't change , but learn to work collectively as a people.

Much love and respect brother Excel

WOW!! 66 years!!! That is awesome and the first I have ever heard of to have had more consecutive family reunions than my own. I am sincerely impressed. It takes real commitment to family to have 66 consecutive annual family reunions. Congratulations!!!


Personally, I think if we can save our family structures and get our men to fulfill their responsibility to the children they father and to the mother of those children, many of our problems will take care of themselves. Well rounded people are often the product of well rounded families.

Greetings Brother Clyde!

I apologize for the late response, unfortunately we won't be adding any new forums at this time. However, i would like to make a possible suggestion. If you like and Sister phynxofkmt agrees, i can add this topic to the" Group Think forum (http://http://destee.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=290)." This way you can easily access all working projects in process from this point on.

What do you say? Would you like for me to do this?

:heart:




PurpleMoons,

Please Purple, no apology is necessary and thanks for getting back with me, but I accept anyway:). Great idea you have offered, and under normal circumstances I would agree.

At this point and rather rapidly, the thread has taken on a different flavor, if you will, and somehow is removed from its original intent. Initially, it seemed the right thing to do, but that has changed. Unless phyxnofkmt feels otherwise, I say no, everything is fine as is. Astrologer4U and myself will continue the pursuit from the original thread.

Well apparently there is a tremendous lack of respect towards others over personal choices that the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" deems inapropriate for the collective black people.

What is it with this "Forum to Overcome Self-hate" when all they are talking about is "personal choices" that they (The self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness") deem inappropriate for black people??????? AS IF someone had to "Overcome" a personal choice that they themselves are happy with, but the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" isn't.

They (The self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness) apparently could not care less about REAL Self-hatred, that is SELF-DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR as well as behavior that is destructive towards the collective black people.

Stuff like this below (in red) speaks of personal choices, yet the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" feel it is their business to have a "Forum" on it while completely ignoring the self-hatred of over 6,400 black men murdering other black men each year, or black men making black children then walking away from them.
Blaming members of our race for marrying outside of it, for straightening their hair, wearing colored contact lenses, practicing the wrong faith, living in the wrong area codes will not heal the collective nor individual patterns or self-hate and unworthiness. In fact, the persecution of each others symptoms will only promote self-hate amongst us and push us further into the arms of those who will eventually reject us.

So, according to the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness", personal choices that the individual is happy with is now a SYMPTOM of self-hatred. Oh, I get it, the self-appointed "Council on Black Correctness" gets to decide rather a black person is really happy or if they are just decieved into thinking they are happy and fulfilled. They also get to decide rather a black person retains the privilage of being "truely" Black or "Black enough" based upon compliance with their rules and bylaws.

First and foremost, I am used to the accusation that I sit on a Council of Black Correctness - so I do not take offense. If we consider for a moment, that by your own admission, we as a nation have issues to attend to, then a "council", or counsellors seem to be part of the mandate for improvement. Whether I've been self-appointed or divinely inspired is a matter of debate that I can take on outside of this thread.

:10900:

Let us take each of your points one at a time:
RELIGION
An example of the wrong faith for a brother or sister, in my humble opinion is belonging to any church that promotes the belief that your blackness is a curse from God, and that blacks are intended to serve the white man because the good book says so. I believe we can recognize the church of Mormon here, and yes I know brothers and sisters that belong to it, and support this doctrine of Self-Hate.

I also personally believe that any church using Caucasian idols for worship, has a long history of covert child molestation, misogyny, and financial involvement in the Maafa, this is not the right faith for a brother or a sister.
Am I My Brother's Keeper??? YES I AM!

You are too educated brother Excel not to recognize the role of religion in the quest for global domination. To this day missionaries are funded millions of dollars to continue the quest to civilize the pagan, to correct the heathen African and to convert those that need to be saved from themselves.
There have been so many discussions here at Destee detailing the effect of Christianity upon the minds of African people that I will allow those posts to stand in their own power rather than reiterate what was already revealed.

APPEARANCE
Black people's fixation with their hair dates back to the dawn of time, and this is exactly what the Dapper museum in Paris sets out to show in an exhibition entitled Parures de Tête (literally, head costumes) that opened this week and runs to July 11, 2004.

African-Americans spend an estimated 325 million dollars (euros) on hair care per year; in Brazil the black hair care market is valued at over two billion dollars; in Britain, 70 percent of beauty expenditure in the "ethnic" category, or some 50 million dollars, is on hair care; South African women spend approximately 130 million dollars annually on their hair.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-17492.htmlAs we can see, beauty is a part of our cultural legacy, and Africans spend a lot of money to appear beautiful. The question or concern we can issue today is both psychological and economical; if Black men and women spend millions of dollars on hair care, are we financing the promotion of Black beauty of colonialist imagery? The millions of dollars being spent, does it go to companies that manufacture flat irons, chemical straighteners, hair and skin bleach, or to experts in the art of plaiting, braided, curling, texturizing, etc... ahhh.... and ultimately where we put our money speaks volumes about what we care about. We still care about being accepted by white societies. We care about fitting in.... and this has a drastic effect on our children. Psycholinguistics is a field of study involving imagery and language, this science is used everyday to influence the PERSONAL CHOICES we each make, because anyone who wants to control the world, knows they must control the INDIVIDUAL CHOICES that form the COLLECTIVE. Simple n'est pas? The recent American election is a prime example of this science applied to the masses. Millions of dollars spent to ensure that each INDIVIDUAL CHOICE would amount up to the ELECTION OF THE RIGHT CANDIDATE! Below we see the "mentality" of our children exposed to psycholinguistic marketing and messages of America:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1-wy_0O_BNs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1-wy_0O_BNs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


RELATIONSHIPS

The following insights are offered on the subject of inter-racial relationships by Dr. Jeffrey Gardere: "...for anyone who falls in love with a compatible person with whom [they] can create a satisfying, long-term relationship, race should never exclude that person simply because he or she is of a different race. (p.202)

"Once we limit ourselves to partners of the same sex or other races, we tend to remove ourselves from the black community and restrict ourselves to the white world or the gay world. Many people who make this choice are surprised and dismayed by their sense of isolation from black friends and family..." (p.204)

"... love knows no color, but many black people who refuse to date within the race suffer seriously from our PTSD [post-traumatic slavery disorder] because they've fallen prey to distorted and poisonous images about their own beauty. Out PTSD-related anger also plays a role in a black man's choice to be with a white woman, perhaps out of the need to get payback for slavery and racism. Some black men also believe white women are more compliant than demanding, intolerant and angry black women. On the other hand, some black women view white men as knights in shining armor who will save them from dead-end relationships with good-for-nothing, cheating, heartless, powerless-yet-posturing black men. (p.200)
The messages that Black men and women receive about one another on a day to day basis, is primarily negative rather than positive. And the truth of the matter is that we are not healed collectively, therefore our relationships with one another mirror quite accurately the wounds we carry from generations of internalizing the hate of colonialism. We cannot escape that Brother Excel, nor should we try to. What we must do is stop viewing the opposite sex as the enemy

IMO, If you want to bicker over and solve real tangible problems/symptoms, we should be working diligently to stop the "self-hate" mentalities that cause an average of 6,400 black men to kill other black men each year, or 70% of our children to be born out of wedlock and without the benefit of their father in their home. These are real and tangible problems that effect the collective. Self destructive lifestyles is real self-hate.
It seems to me that if we are to solve the marital problems in the community, we will first have to decide to use our PERSONAL CHOICE in SELECTING A MATE, and while we can choose to fall in love with a white person, and create a stable family, we can also choose to fall in love with another person of color and create a stable family. Thereby we help to change that statistic and we lead by example.

Once we have exercise the power of choice, we can then apply our knowledge and experience to assisting other couples in our communities overcome relationship dysfuntions. As it stands currently, African American women are statistically more loyal to the race than their brothers, especially the brothers who achieve economic wealth and status. And yet we ponder why the Black community feels impoverished? SMH. Can someone say abandonment? "A term has arisen to describe the social phenomenon of the so-called "marriage squeeze" for African American females[23]. The "marriage squeeze" refers to the fact that the most "eligible" and "desirable" African American men are marrying non-African American women at a higher rate, leaving African American women who wish to marry African American men with fewer partnering options. According to Newsweek, 43% of African American women between the ages of 30 and 34 have never been married.[24] Several explanations of this phenomenon have been advanced by sociologists. It may be in part due to the still lingering effects of social ostracism, to which Caucasian American men who married African American women were heavily subjected in the past. It may also be the result of a desire among African American women to marry African American men due to concepts such as racial loyalty.[citation needed] There also appears a lingering perception that negative social stereotypes cause black women to be viewed as sexual objects by non-African American men.[citation needed] Lastly, there is a desire among educated women of all races to marry partners within or above their social and economic class; when African American women restrict their marriage prospects to African American men, African American women risk either marrying below their socioeconomic class or not marrying at all as African American women consistently achieve better completion rates in higher education than African American men do.[25]. Also, rates of incarceration for marriage-age African American males are far higher than rates for females, further contributing to the male/female gap. As of 2002, 10.4% of all African American males between the ages of 25 and 29 were sentenced and in prison.[26] The African-American male-female disparity is highest between the ages of 25 – 29, when for every two African-American men, there are nearly three African-American women. [27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

On a last minute note, I recently was directed to a GayThug website, which I have to say blew my mind. And although I do try to be open minded, this DL behavior disgusts me and I'd love to out and shame any brother involved in deceiving his "baby mama", or girlfriend, wife, etc... into thinking he's straight. On perusal of the site, I discovered many of the profiled men actually have children, and women in their lives. My question was of course, do their girlfriends and baby mama's know about this game on the side? Scandalous, simply scandalous, and if I discovered my man was a switch hitter, you can be dang sure he's not coming back home to my stable household! Yep, I'm a sexual orientation bigot.... oh well.

http://www.gaythugdating.com/members/chocolatejohnson/

BLACK HOMICIDE

In approaching this subject, I have to say I was stumped. Although I studied criminology for 2 years and was working towards a degree in it, I have to admit that even with all of the sociological theories on deviance, at the end of the day I really had no concrete understanding of why humans want to harm one another.

With that said, I decided to take a different approach to this subject; and rather than post paragraphs of theoretical summary and statistical analysis trying to convince people of a subject that I have yet to comprehend; I called a friend. Yes, if this was Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, I would be using the call-a-friend-option. Here's why.

First off, I have never known anyone who has been murdered, or committed a murder, not personally. I have not been in prison, nor have I any family members that had been in prison for serious offenses. Therefore, the theoretical framework of text books were all I could offer, unless I sought the expertise of someone with better experience. So, that's what I did.

Here's what I learned when I asked the question, why do Black men kill one another?

"It stems from back in the day, when plantation owners would pit Black men against one another for favor, status, better jobs, or in feats of combat and displays of physical strength where they would wager. This created jealousy. And it's the jealousy that keeps 'em killing one another. Like back in the 80's when a brother could get killed on the streets for his sneakers. Crazy to kill someone for status symbols, but that's what it's about sometimes. That's why the athlete Sean Taylor died last year at the age of 24, and why so many pro athletes carry guns to protect themselves."

So that was the insight I received from someone with more experience in the area than myself.

From an academic perspective, I believe that all of the deviance theories contribute to understanding the dynamic.

In addressing the issue of homicide amongst African males, we can choose one particular indicator and focus on solutions to that area. For example in the following table from the FBI Criminal Justice Department, it seems that the majority of homicide incidents do not involve another felony; but did involve some kind of argument or conflict. In fact, the table provided notes that the majority of circumstances behind homicide are unknown.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_09.html

While the bell curve of homicide amongst African American males begins to peak around 17 and ends around 34, this age range suggests a few factors at play. First, coming of age where a boy declares his manhood by competing for the attention of mates, and resources. If the social structure prohibit or deny his ability to attain the socially defined goals, and status symbols his frustration and stress (strain) increases until he finds a means to acquire these items. Secondly, the increase of aggression correlates with the peak period of testosterone, suggesting to me that the high level of arousal and energy present in a man's body needs something to do, an outlet. If the young man has not already established secure ties with his family, community, and future then he has less likelihood of utilizing a positive vehicle to drive this intense energy. The result is frustration, anger, internalization of these emotions, and resentment of those people who mirror his experience.

Unfortunately, I must end my speculation here as time demands it.

You show me one of these people over here who has been thoroughly brainwashed and has a negative attitude toward Africa, and I'll show you one who has a negative attitude toward himself. You can't have a positive attitude toward yourself and a negative attitude toward Africa at the same time.

- Malcolm X

And this is what the white man knows. So they very skillfully make you and me hate our African identity, our African characteristics. You know yourself that we have been a people who hated our African characteristics. We hated our heads, we hated the shape of our nose, we wanted one of those long doglike noses, you know; we hated the color of our skin, hated the blood of Africa that was in our veins. And in hating our features and our skin and our blood, why, we had to end up hating ourselves. And we hated ourselves.

Our color became to us a chain--we felt that it was holding us back; our color became to us like a prison which we felt was keeping us confined, not letting us go this way or that way. We felt all of these restrictions were based solely upon our color, and the psychological reaction to that would have to be that as long as we felt imprisoned or chained or trapped by Black skin, Black features, and Black blood, that skin and those features and that blood holding us back automatically had to become hateful to us. And it became hateful to us.

It made us feel inferior; it made us feel inadequate made us feel helpless. And when we fell victims to this feeling of inadequacy or inferiority or helplessness, we turned to somebody else to show us the way. We didn't have confidence in another Black man to show us the way, or Black people to show us the way. In those days we didn't. We didn't think a man could do anything except play some horns--you know, make sound and make you happy with some songs and in that way.

But in serious things, where our food, clothing, shelter, and education were concerned, we turned to the man. We never thought in terms of bringing these things into existence for ourselves, we never thought in terms of doing for ourselves. Because we felt helpless.

What made us feel helpless was our hatred for ourselves. And our hatred for ourselves stemmed from hatred for things African. After 1959 the spirit of African nationalism was fanned to a high flame, and we then began to witness the complete collapse of colonialism. France began to get out of French West Africa, Belgium began to make moves to get out of the Congo, Britain began to make moves to get out of Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda, Nigeria, and some of these other places.

And although it looked like they were getting out, they pulled a trick that was colossal. When you're playing ball and they've got you trapped, you don't throw the ball away--you throw it to one of your teammates who's in the clear. And this is what the European powers did.

They were trapped African continent, they couldn't stay there --they were looked upon as colonial and imperialist. They had to pass the ball to someone whose image was different, and they passed the ball to Uncle Sam. And he picked it up and has been running it for a touchdown ever since.

He was in the clear, he was not looked upon as one who had colonized the African continent. At that time, the Africans couldn't see that though the Unites States hadn't colonized the African continent, it had colonized twenty-two million Blacks here on this continent. Because we're just as thoroughly colonized as anybody else. When the ball was passed to the United States, it was passed at the time when John Kennedy came into power. He picked it up and helped to run it. He was one of the shrewdest backfield runners that history has recorded. He surrounded himself with intellectuals--highly educated, learned, and well informed people.

And their analysis told him that the government of America was confronted with a new problem. And this new problem stemmed from the fact that Africans were now awakened, they were enlightened, they were fearless, they would fight. This meant that the Western powers couldn't stay there by force. Since their own economy, the European economy and the American economy was based upon their continued influence over the African continent, they had to find some means of staying there.

So they used the friendly approach. They switched from the old, openly colonial imperialistic approach to the benevolent approach. They came up with some benevolent colonialism, philanthropic colonialism, humanitarianism, or dollarism. Immediately everything was Peace Corps, Operation Crossroads, "We've got to help our African brothers." Pick up on that: Can't help us in Mississippi. Can't help us in Alabama, or Detroit, or out here in Dearborn, where some real Ku Klux Klan lives. They're going to send all the way to Africa to help.

One of the things that made the Black Muslim movement grow was its emphasis upon things African. This was the secret to the growth of the Black Muslim movement. African blood, African origin, African culture, African ties. And you'd be surprised--we discovered that deep within the subconscious of the black man in this country, he is still more African than he is American. He thinks that he's more American than African, because the man is jiving him, the man is brainwashing him every day.

He's telling him, "You're an American, you're an American." Man, how could you think you're an American when you haven't ever had any kind of an American treat over here? You have never, never. Ten men can be at a table eating, you know, dining, and I can come and sit down where they're dining. They're dining; I've got a plate in front of me, but nothing is on it. Because all of us are sitting at the same table, are all us are diners? I'm not a diner until you let me dine. Just being at the table with others who are dining doesn't make me a diner, and this is what you've got to get in your head here in this country. Just because you're in this country doesn't make you an American.

No, you've got to go farther than that before you can become an American. You've got to enjoy the fruits of Americanism. You haven't enjoyed those fruits. You've enjoyed the thorns. You've enjoyed the thistles. But you have not enjoyed the fruits, no sir. You have fought harder for the fruits the white man has, you have worked harder for the fruits than the white man has, but you've enjoyed less. When the man put the uniform on and sent you abroad, you fought harder than they did. Yes, I know you--when you're fighting for them, you can fight.

The Black Muslim movement did make that contribution. They made the whole civil rights movement become more militant and more acceptable to the white power structure. He would rather have them than us. In fact, I think we forced many of the civil rights leaders to be even more militant than they intended. I know some of them who get out there and "boom, boom, boom" and don't mean it. Because they're right on back in their corner as soon as the action comes.

The worst thing the white man can do to himself is to take one of these kinds of Negroes and ask him, "How do your people feel, boy?" He's going to tell that man that we are satisfied. That's what they do, brothers and sisters. They get behind the door and tell the white man we're satisfied. "Just keep on keeping me up here in front of them, boss, and I'll keep them behind you." That's what they talk when they're behind closed us. Because, you see, the white man doesn't go along with anybody who's not for him. He doesn't care are you for right or wrong; he wants to know are you for him. And if you're for him, he doesn't care what else you're for. As long as you're for him, then he puts you up over the Negro community. You become a spokesman…

Brothers and sisters, let me tell you, I spend my time out there streets with people, all kinds of people, listening to what they have to say. And they're dissatisfied, they're disillusioned, they're fed up, they're getting to the point of frustration where they begin to feel, "What do we have to lose?" When you get to that point, you're the type of person who can create a very dangerously explosive atmosphere. This is what's happening in our neighborhoods, to our people.

I read in a poll taken by Newsweek magazine this week, saying that Negroes are satisfied. Oh, yes, Newsweek, you know, supposed to be a top magazine with a top pollster, talking about how satisfied Negroes are. Maybe I haven't met the Negroes he met. Because I know he hasn't met the ones that I've met. And this is dangerous. This is where the white man does himself the most harm. He invents statistics to create an image thinking that that image is going to hold things in check.

You know why they always say Negroes are lazy? Because they want Negroes to be lazy. They always say Negroes can't unite, because they don't want Negroes to unite. And once they put this thing in the Negro's mind, they feel he tries to fulfill their image. If they say you can't unite Black people and then you come to them to unite them, they won't unite, because it's been said that they're not supposed to unite. It's a psycho that they work and it's the same way with these statistics.

Page 1 of 2

Link: http://www.blackstarnews.com/?c=135&a=5183

Self-appointed" "Council of Black Correctness" or "CoBC" for short, is the nickname I have given to all of my fellow black brothers and sisters who think it is within their rightful place to attack or otherwise criticize brothers and sisters whose personal choices are not within rules and bylaws they (The CoBC) have deemed "correct" for all black people.

This CoBC is not a real entity, but my poking fun at the audacity of some blacks who think their opinion of other blacks choices should be the standard for all black people.

I understand your point , to sum it up on such makeship group it is in each and as
individuals who so deem to choose what they so believe is their choice as well as
yours or mines
this will be a division where we need to agree that we don't agree and move forward
to a collective structure to fight the bigger task we face as people of color .

Not a one of us can set law to anothers choice nor can myself as well any say what
is black enough or not black ......No matter of our choices we all make them for the good to ourselves.

Above all the makeship of correction everyone you speak on have there rights of choice or thinking.
It holds no weight ! just consumption of consuming , I find it hard to accept that it holds any water .

self hate is defined by thin lines of thinking , we need to let go of that and redefined our direction we all are
people who are affected by some level of hate , displayed against us we are our
worse fold .

collectively outside the box we need to forget the greed of hate and habor the fact of lovin to manifest solutions to our problem that's bigger at hand

The solutional key to self hate is to not judge anothers reason or choices but learn to agree we are
still people of color working in the direction to curb poverty / dismay in homes and stop so much
black on black crime along side so many other things we struggle at , lift the next fellow man or sister
teach thy children and worry not of self hate which will forever be an individual scope
this will be an on going thing
who are the bigger man is the key , that can look beyond the wall of water paint !

Brother Rich,

With all due respect to yourself and all members of Destee. I agree with your position to a point, and then I have to ask us all, if Self-Acceptance is the anti-dote to Self-Hate, and Self-love is the reward how do we generate those feelings in ourselves if we are involved in self-destructive behavior?
I am willing to risk whatever popularity I do or do not have to state a position of non-compliance with general social conventions.

Now, I am not discussing being married to a non-black person here, so please relax a hot minute. In fact, I'm not going to mention it again. I've written from my own perspectives what I have experienced as beneficial and detrimental in white-black unions and I stand by my words.

When I look at a map of the world, I see Nations upon Nations. Some of these Nations rule the world, other serve it and are destined to do so for an indeterminate length of time unless there is a huge shift in their collective energies.

The Asian countries have experience that Africans can learn from. What they have achieved is unprecedented economic growth, what they sacrificed was environmental and individual well-being. China is the manufacturing mecca of the world, but her River's are so polluted that cancer is fast becoming an epidemic in both rural and urban areas. Japan has a well deserved reputation for xenophobia, but has managed to secure a future for it's Nation.
"A major economic power,[4] Japan has the world's second largest economy by nominal GDP and the third largest in purchasing power parity. It is a member of the United Nations, G8, OECD and APEC, with the world's fifth largest defense budget. It is also the world's fourth largest exporter and sixth largest importer. It is a developed country with high living standards (8th highest HDI) and a world leader in technology, machinery, and robotics."
In addition, the Japanese boast the 10th largest nation on the planet!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan

Now, when we ask how did Japan and China make such great strides in such a short time? The key word that comes to my mind is SELF-DISCIPLINE or as Brother Keita would say, SELF-PRESERVATION.

Can we honestly say, that by embracing an attitude of ambiguity and non-cohesive goal attainment, that the African people can hope to retrieve that which was lost, or to regain a foothold on the world stage?

If we pay attention to the intentions and interventions of institutions like Tavistock we will notice that public opinion and culture can be engineered by psycho-linguistic initiatives. The hippie movement in the 60's was not a problem for the government, it was a problem designed by the government. Designed to unravel the stability of true revolution, undermining it with free love, drug abuse and complacency and you know what? It worked! The same people that wore flowers in their hair, smoked weed all day, had indiscriminate sexual relations all grew up to become neo-conservative yuppies driving Volvos, drinking filtered water, and putting their own children in private school. Ironically, the working class and the poor of the Black community didn't all make that same leap.

Are we hoping that some Divine Intervention will assist us in accumulating Intellectual Property Rights for the hundreds of inventions procured by African American inventors? Does history show us that foreign cultures have an interest in restoring our autonomy? Will Africans be prepared to spend and invest any reparations made to them, or would they unwittingly return it to the hands of their oppressor accumulating more debt for material goods that in the end mean nothing? Will Africans decide at some point to determine the course of their own destiny by examining what has to be done and making the appropriate SELF-SACRIFICE, or will they be content to beg at the feet of the world for hand-outs of AIDS?

The three top African populations are Nigeria, Ethiopia and the Congo all of which have considerably low gross domestic products. How then can the lead the continent, if they haven't enough resources, political stability or industry to feed their own people?

As Dr. Pookrum pointed out, the Aboriginal people of this continent are near extinction and if the Black people continue on their path they too will follow suit. I say it is better to correct oneself than be governed and disciplined by the whim of another.

Amen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_population.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_PPP_per_capita_2007_IMF.png

Allow me to reply......Being a Poop Disturber...





Sister phynxofkmt,

Having learn of your time restraints, thank you reviving, hopefully, your thread and putting us back on track. You and Brother Mad Skillz both have shared substantive materials. This provides a strong indication that some of us are still interested in finding solutions, and that is my only purpose for participating in this thread. It is not my intent nor will I allow myself to go back and forth in some contest of sorts. As you well know, this Part II, if you will, is a spin-off break away from the Original that Astrologer4U and myself continue to pursue.

For whatever reasons, certain others have entered this open forum, and wish to simply overlook our main intent at finding a plan or probing for solutions to this eminent threat of Self-Hate that perpetually hangs over our People.

The attempt at creating a Forum on the topic of Self Hate, again, as you agreed would be a good idea, has been made mockery of to the extent that it no longer interests me. However, it has been offered to move this thread into the Origin of Racism Forum, since at this time, other Forums will not be created. So, let me give some brief history about the creation of that Forum, unless you are already familiar.

The Origin of Racism Forum was created by Destee to enable our Group Think project easy access and organization of related sources that would self generate. This concept of Destee’s is ingenious, and grew out of my foresight and deep desire to problem solve("if you don't have a solution, you are part of the problem") the thread of A007: What is the Origin of Racism. In similar fashion grew this source or material from Tariq Muhammad’s, The Origin and Ending of Self Hate thread.

So, here is are questions for you, phynxofkmt; do you see a nexus on the issues? And if so, do you wish this thread, Overcoming Self Hate Part II, be placed in the Origin of Racism Forum?

Allow me to reply......Being a Poop Disturber...


Sister phynxofkmt,

Having learn of your time restraints, thank you reviving, hopefully, your thread and putting us back on track. You and Brother Mad Skillz both have shared substantive materials. This provides a strong indication that some of us are still interested in finding solutions, and that is my only purpose for participating in this thread. It is not my intent nor will I allow myself to go back and forth in some contest of sorts. As you well know, this Part II, if you will, is a spin-off break away from the Original that Astrologer4U and myself continue to pursue.

For whatever reasons, certain others have entered this open forum, and wish to simply overlook our main intent at finding a plan or probing for solutions to this eminent threat of Self-Hate that perpetually hangs over our People.

The attempt at creating a Forum on the topic of Self Hate, again, as you agreed would be a good idea, has been made mockery of to the extent that it no longer interests me. However, it has been offered to move this thread into the Origin of Racism Forum, since at this time, other Forums will not be created. So, let me give some brief history about the creation of that Forum, unless you are already familiar.

The Origin of Racism Forum was created by Destee to enable our Group Think project easy access and organization of related sources that would self generate. This concept of Destee’s is ingenious, and grew out of my foresight and deep desire to problem solve("if you don't have a solution, you are part of the problem") the thread of A007: What is the Origin of Racism. In similar fashion grew this source or material from Tariq Muhammad’s, The Origin and Ending of Self Hate thread.

So, here is are questions for you, phynxofkmt; do you see a nexus on the issues? And if so, do you wish this thread, Overcoming Self Hate Part II, be placed in the Origin of Racism Forum?



Simple yes, I would like to see the thread be place in the Origin of Racism Forum. Gratitude to you Bro Clyde

Brother MadSkillz I so thoroughly enjoyed reading your post; because it summarized a very lengthy and intricate part of the puzzle. And I believe that one of the challenges we have faced is seeing the big picture, but the way in which you presented the material made it tangible for everyone to grasp. I appreciate your input about how people really feel, because I've often wondered as much - once again great write.

Simple yes, I would like to see the thread be place in the Origin of Racism Forum. Gratitude to you Bro Clyde

Brother MadSkillz I so thoroughly enjoyed reading your post; because it summarized a very lengthy and intricate part of the puzzle. And I believe that one of the challenges we have faced is seeing the big picture, but the way in which you presented the material made it tangible for everyone to grasp. I appreciate your input about how people really feel, because I've often wondered as much - once again great write.







phynxofkmt,

Sister, I think you have made a wonderful decision, and thank you. Self Hate is an underpinning connected to racism. I will pass on to PurpleMoons, Administrator, your decision to annex this thread into the Origin of Racism Forum......Peace!

First and foremost, I am used to the accusation that I sit on a Council of Black Correctness - so I do not take offense. If we consider for a moment, that by your own admission, we as a nation have issues to attend to, then a "council", or counsellors seem to be part of the mandate for improvement. Whether I've been self-appointed or divinely inspired is a matter of debate that I can take on outside of this thread.

I agree that a "council" might be part of the mandate for improvement, but insomuch as personal choices are concerned, no "council" can impede upon the choices an individual makes that the individual themselves are happy with. The only "improvement" we need to address are issues that are destructive to the collective in a tangible way.


Let us take each of your points one at a time:

Good plan. I might have to break up my response, handling a portion at a time, but we will see how it works out.


RELIGION
An example of the wrong faith for a brother or sister, in my humble opinion is belonging to any church that promotes the belief that your blackness is a curse from God, and that blacks are intended to serve the white man because the good book says so. I believe we can recognize the church of Mormon here, and yes I know brothers and sisters that belong to it, and support this doctrine of Self-Hate.

I also personally believe that any church using Caucasian idols for worship, has a long history of covert child molestation, misogyny, and financial involvement in the Maafa, this is not the right faith for a brother or a sister.
Am I My Brother's Keeper??? YES I AM!


You have mentioned cults such as the Mormans and the Catholics. A cult is not right for anyone. Their faith and practices are contradictions to Bible Christianity. Having any image or "idol for worship" is unbiblical. So all of the issues you pointed out as being "not the right faith for a brother or a sister.", are simply perversions of biblical Christianity and not acceptable to God, therefore not appropriate for anyone.

By the same token, based on freedom of choice, it is none of your or my business if a brother or sister CHOOSES to pursue these perverted versions of Christianity. It is essentially the same as if a brother or sister viewed or participated in pornography. It is wrong, but really not my business. It doesn't effect the collective. Stopping them from doing so is not going to bring about the collective "Improvement" that the "council" seeks.

What tangible benefit can be gained on behalf of the collective by claiming their choice to pursue a perverted religion as "self-hate"?


You are too educated brother Excel not to recognize the role of religion in the quest for global domination. To this day missionaries are funded millions of dollars to continue the quest to civilize the pagan, to correct the heathen African and to convert those that need to be saved from themselves.
There have been so many discussions here at Destee detailing the effect of Christianity upon the minds of African people that I will allow those posts to stand in their own power rather than reiterate what was already revealed.

The quest for global domination is a political one. The quest to spread the gospel is a spiritual one. They are not mutually the same. In fact, they are almost polar opposites. The quest for global domination and The Great Commission are in no way connected.

Any cult or Christian perversion will definately have a negative effect upon the mind of Any people who follow it. On the other hand, I have not seen any negative effect of following and obeying true biblical principles.

More importantly, I will give you and opportunity to do what no one else have done when I have asked specific questions. Please connect the dots between the ambiguous "problem" of pursuing a religion you deem "not right" for the black man or woman, and any TANGIBLE problem that is harmful to the collective. Please be specific. I want to drill down to the specific tangible problem.

Christianity doesn't teach white supremacy. Most true White supremacist abhore Christianity, the ones that don't abhore it, twist and pervert it to the point that it would be unrecognizable by Christ. In fact, most characters in the Bible would be considered non-White and several are definatively black.

There are 10's of thousands of people held in slavery right now in Sudan and Darfur, there is violence on the scale that occurs nowhere else in the entire world, do you not think these people need to be saved???

I clearly understand that there is a real quest for global domination, but, I assure you those missionaries who are sacrificing the comforts of the U.S. to take their families to live in sub-standard conditions and whose lives are almost constantly at risk are not a part of that quest.



APPEARANCE
Black people's fixation with their hair dates back to the dawn of time, and this is exactly what the Dapper museum in Paris sets out to show in an exhibition entitled Parures de Tête (literally, head costumes) that opened this week and runs to July 11, 2004.

African-Americans spend an estimated 325 million dollars (euros) on hair care per year; in Brazil the black hair care market is valued at over two billion dollars; in Britain, 70 percent of beauty expenditure in the "ethnic" category, or some 50 million dollars, is on hair care; South African women spend approximately 130 million dollars annually on their hair.
[SIZE=2]http://www.longhaircareforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-17492.htmlAs we can see, beauty is a part of our cultural legacy, and Africans spend a lot of money to appear beautiful. The question or concern we can issue today is both psychological and economical; if Black men and women spend millions of dollars on hair care, are we financing the promotion of Black beauty of colonialist imagery? The millions of dollars being spent, does it go to companies that manufacture flat irons, chemical straighteners, hair and skin bleach, or to experts in the art of plaiting, braided, curling, texturizing, etc... ahhh.... and ultimately where we put our money speaks volumes about what we care about. We still care about being accepted by white societies. We care about fitting in.... and this has a drastic effect on our children. Psycholinguistics is a field of study involving imagery and language, this science is used everyday to influence the PERSONAL CHOICES we each make, because anyone who wants to control the world, knows they must control the INDIVIDUAL CHOICES that form the COLLECTIVE. Simple n'est pas? The recent American election is a prime example of this science applied to the masses. Millions of dollars spent to ensure that each INDIVIDUAL CHOICE would amount up to the ELECTION OF THE RIGHT CANDIDATE! Below we see the "mentality" of our children exposed to psycholinguistic marketing and messages of America:

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Again, I think this is just CHOICES. But, lets look at tangible problems created by this. If a black woman chooses to straighten their hair, what tangible problem does this create for that woman or for the collective? A woman may go from textured to straight, from long to short all as a matter of experiencing with different fashions, it doesn't constitute "self-hate".

Insomuch as fitting in is concerned, I am the only black person in my region within my company. If I had my hair "Fried, dyed, and laid to the side" It would never make me "fit in" better. If I wore blue contact lenses or bleached my skin, It would not make me "fit in" any better. It would only make me appear wierd (like Micheal Jackson). I don't think fashion choices of individuals are done in an effort to "fit in" with whites. They may like white features better than their own, (which was apparently the case with Micheal Jackson), but I am certain he had no dillusion it would make him "fit in" to white society better. Liking the features of one person more than your own doesn't make one a "self-hater".

But again, lets talk about the Tangible problems created by this "drastic effect on our children". Ambiguous problems such as "it make them want to emulate white people" is just a choice, everyone emulates someone. When Run DMC did "Walk This Way" it was a choice, not an demonstration of self-hatred. I realize this is not the best example, but my point is, lets drill down to what you would consider the tangible problem that creates a problem for black people. When white guys enjoy rap music or R&B is this self-hatred?


RELATIONSHIPS

The following insights are offered on the subject of inter-racial relationships by Dr. Jeffrey Gardere: "...for anyone who falls in love with a compatible person with whom [they] can create a satisfying, long-term relationship, race should never exclude that person simply because he or she is of a different race. (p.202)

"Once we limit ourselves to partners of the same sex or other races, we tend to remove ourselves from the black community and restrict ourselves to the white world or the gay world. Many people who make this choice are surprised and dismayed by their sense of isolation from black friends and family..." (p.204)

"... love knows no color, but many black people who refuse to date within the race suffer seriously from our PTSD [post-traumatic slavery disorder] because they've fallen prey to distorted and poisonous images about their own beauty. Out PTSD-related anger also plays a role in a black man's choice to be with a white woman, perhaps out of the need to get payback for slavery and racism. Some black men also believe white women are more compliant than demanding, intolerant and angry black women. On the other hand, some black women view white men as knights in shining armor who will save them from dead-end relationships with good-for-nothing, cheating, heartless, powerless-yet-posturing black men. (p.200)
The messages that Black men and women receive about one another on a day to day basis, is primarily negative rather than positive. And the truth of the matter is that we are not healed collectively, therefore our relationships with one another mirror quite accurately the wounds we carry from generations of internalizing the hate of colonialism. We cannot escape that Brother Excel, nor should we try to. What we must do is stop viewing the opposite sex as the enemy
The message that a Black man or woman recieves on a day to day basis is primarily that of their EXPERIENCES with the individual mates they choose. I don't think any black man or woman who "refuse to date within the race" adopted that attitude based on societal pressures or influences. It is usually based on negative EXPERIENCES they have had. So if it is negative rather than positive messages they are getting, it is not because of something they seen on TV or learned at school, it is because they were burned or hurt by the opposite sex. Even as a black man married to a white woman, I do not like it when I run into the occassional brother who "refuse to date within the race", but he is free to date whomever he wants, it has no effect on me...it has no effect on the collective.

If individuals who date outside their race choose to do so for what ever reason they may have, right, wrong, or indifferent, it is their free choice to do so. It has no tangible effect upon the collective.

I have no negative views against black women and I certainly don't consider them the enemy. I love all women, but I am IN LOVE with only one. This is not the business of the collective, the council or anyone else. It has no effect on the collective and certainly isn't "self-hate". So, why do I need to be treated for symptoms of self-hate or need some group of blacks get together to decide what must be done to prevent me from exercising free choice? What is the tangible problem I have created other than offend the opinion of those who.......oh, wait, that's not tangible.


It seems to me that if we are to solve the marital problems in the community, we will first have to decide to use our PERSONAL CHOICE in SELECTING A MATE, and while we can choose to fall in love with a white person, and create a stable family, we can also choose to fall in love with another person of color and create a stable family. Thereby we help to change that statistic and we lead by example.

That is your OPINION. Our 70% OOW child birth problem is not associated with the few of us who CHOOSE to marry outside the race. It is directly related to violating the Christian principle of avoiding sexual relationships outside of marriage. It is directly related to irresponsible men and women (especially men).

So, if I choose not to agree with your opinion, it doesn't constitute "self-hate" or an "overwhelming problem" requiring all hands on deck" to "resolve". While you may think it is a good idea to "choose to fall in love with another person of color", life doesn't always work that way.

If a person doesn't want to get married, that's their call. If they choose to create children OOW then not fulfill their responsibility to that child, they have then created a problem that society must pay for in some way. It is then a problem for the collective.



Once we have exercise the power of choice, we can then apply our knowledge and experience to assisting other couples in our communities overcome relationship dysfuntions. As it stands currently, African American women are statistically more loyal to the race than their brothers, especially the brothers who achieve economic wealth and status. And yet we ponder why the Black community feels impoverished? SMH. Can someone say abandonment? "A term has arisen to describe the social phenomenon of the so-called "marriage squeeze" for African American females[23]. The "marriage squeeze" refers to the fact that the most "eligible" and "desirable" African American men are marrying non-African American women at a higher rate, leaving African American women who wish to marry African American men with fewer partnering options. According to Newsweek, 43% of African American women between the ages of 30 and 34 have never been married.[24] Several explanations of this phenomenon have been advanced by sociologists. It may be in part due to the still lingering effects of social ostracism, to which Caucasian American men who married African American women were heavily subjected in the past. It may also be the result of a desire among African American women to marry African American men due to concepts such as racial loyalty.[citation needed] There also appears a lingering perception that negative social stereotypes cause black women to be viewed as sexual objects by non-African American men.[citation needed] Lastly, there is a desire among educated women of all races to marry partners within or above their social and economic class; when African American women restrict their marriage prospects to African American men, African American women risk either marrying below their socioeconomic class or not marrying at all as African American women consistently achieve better completion rates in higher education than African American men do.[25]. Also, rates of incarceration for marriage-age African American males are far higher than rates for females, further contributing to the male/female gap. As of 2002, 10.4% of all African American males between the ages of 25 and 29 were sentenced and in prison.[26] The African-American male-female disparity is highest between the ages of 25 – 29, when for every two African-American men, there are nearly three African-American women. [27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

Based on 2006 Census figures 286,000 black men were married to white women and 117,000 black women were married to white men. That is a 169,000 "trade deficit". So, the exercise of freedom of choice has effected marriage in the black community by 169,000 couples out of 4 million. This is a mere 4.2% of all black people who are married.

Although I didn't marry inside the race, I consider it a good idea to do so. But, we are talking about overcoming "self-hate". Although exercising freedom of choice does create a 4.2% trade deficit, it does not justify applying the lable of "self-hate" to the one who chooses to marry outside the race.

So, overcome the lack of marriage in our community, but lets not criticize those who are married as "self-haters" because they have choosen to marry outside the race.



On a last minute note, I recently was directed to a GayThug website, which I have to say blew my mind. And although I do try to be open minded, this DL behavior disgusts me and I'd love to out and shame any brother involved in deceiving his "baby mama", or girlfriend, wife, etc... into thinking he's straight. On perusal of the site, I discovered many of the profiled men actually have children, and women in their lives. My question was of course, do their girlfriends and baby mama's know about this game on the side? Scandalous, simply scandalous, and if I discovered my man was a switch hitter, you can be dang sure he's not coming back home to my stable household! Yep, I'm a sexual orientation bigot.... oh well.

[COLOR=Navy]COLOR]

I am as well. In this case, I can point to tangible problems that effect the collective. HIV/AIDS is rampant in the black community. Last year, 69% of all women contracting HIV/AIDS were black. Now there might be some self-hate you can overcome.

The rest of your post will be addressed in a different response....I am working on it as time permits.

frustrated easily, but as my time is more precious to me than ever before, I do have to make a PERSONAL CHOICE as to where I allocate it, and therefore this will be my last response to address the challenge of what constitutes personal choice and what is a symptom of hate / rejection / hurt.

FACT - The Christian churches worldwide are derivatives the Roman Catholic church,

FACT - Regardless of which bible used, the story & message is the same, a great deal of plagiarism from the Mystery schools.

FACT - religion is a business, parishioners donate time & money to keep their churches afloat. If you lose your job tomorrow will the church cover your bills until you're re-employed?

FACT - Christianity was the religion used by Caucasians to justify the genocide of First Nations people, to abduct their children and put them in residential schools where they were taught that their own customs and beliefs made them inferior heathens. It was the same religion used to brainwash Africans into believing that heaven is in the sky and that slavery was ordained by God.

FACT - the slavery in Dafur is because of RACE, ECONOMICS AND POLITICS - JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOING TO SAVE THEM -

FACT - what you call fashion emulation is actually a form of jealousy or envy which destroy the soul When you consider that the kingdom of God is within you - as a Christian you recognize that you are made in the image of your God (GIFT OF DIVINITY); then distorting your temple is a reflection of your unique fingerprint, spiritual rejection within your self for that outside of you.

In none of your arguments do you cite references for support, not once have you used a Black author, an African leader or an African movement to support your position - do you have any literature or reference to help support your opinions?

If the activities of your brothers & sisters are none of your business, then that ought to include their personal decision to kill one another?
unless you're on an evangelist quest for converts?????

Religion and politics go hand in hand, they are even referred to in the Bible as the towers of Boaz and Jachin. The so called separation of church and state has never actually taken place. I don't know if you study history but in order to make a point here you need to do better research in this area.

You've misinterpreted the statistic of HIV in the community, which many people do and which the media knows most people will do. The exact premise is that 69% of new cases were reported by women of African American descent - not that 60% of all cases are African American women. Consider for a moment if you will the rest of the HIV studies that show a high rate of false positives for testing.

If you want to discuss HIV and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases I welcome that because it deserves it's own thread, which I believe was started previously and we can look for it and meet there. Dispelling myth and evaluating the role that being diagnosed with HIV means in terms of economics and again political control is very necessary to win this battle.

What I am willing to discuss on that subject is, HIV what is this disease, what are the symptoms, what are the treatments, and why are some people deliberately trying to spread it into their communities?
(see Trashman on YouTube)

If you feel that the contents of this thread are not valid it is your PERSONAL CHOICE TO IGNORE THE THREAD, but at no time have you proven that what was presented is wrong. What you have said though is that the behavior you are concerned with is not condoned in the bible....

I will not continue a discussion with you or anyone else who uses the Bible as their sole reference for morality, I'm not anti-Bible, I actually own an African Heritage Study Bible. I just believe it's really not productive nor the path I wish to walk at this time.

p.s Have you ever read the ISIS Papers?

hehehe.... he hasn't read anything accept for the false statistics about blacks that he continuosly spouts.



Any way Phynx, great! Post


I really love and adore this part, points to his bias, and obvious contradiction to the way he feels...

[If the activities of your brothers & sisters are none of your business, then that ought to include their personal decision to kill one another?
unless you're on an evangelist quest for converts?????


If you review his history here, you will see that he only post in threads where he sees an oppurtunity to spout his opinions about race and self destructive behavior amongst blacks and his dissapointment about what he percieves people feel, concerning his choice of wife. He never sites any sources and the one source he did site at one time was proven to be counterfeit. When he was asked to take down the source because it being counterfeit, he refused to do so. I guess his insincere ego, would not allow him to. The whole thing about it, he hiself, agreed that the source was counterfeit, yet he refused to take it down.

You are right, if you want to see to it that your time is spent productively, you don't want to continue with this guy.


Sister


Astrologer4U

frustrated easily, but as my time is more precious to me than ever before, I do have to make a PERSONAL CHOICE as to where I allocate it, and therefore this will be my last response to address the challenge of what constitutes personal choice and what is a symptom of hate / rejection / hurt.

First, let me ask you this. As a mulatto person, who do you blame for creating you? Was it your father you lable a self hater or your mother?

That is what you have lost sight of, the fact that this thread is about overcoming self hate. Part of which, based on your description of self-hate, is creating people like my children and you. I think you are a wonderful person, but based on your opinion, you are a result of self-hate. Very interesting.



FACT - The Christian churches worldwide are derivatives the Roman Catholic church,

FACT - Regardless of which bible used, the story & message is the same, a great deal of plagiarism from the Mystery schools.

FACT - religion is a business, parishioners donate time & money to keep their churches afloat. If you lose your job tomorrow will the church cover your bills until you're re-employed?

FACT - Christianity was the religion used by Caucasians to justify the genocide of First Nations people, to abduct their children and put them in residential schools where they were taught that their own customs and beliefs made them inferior heathens. It was the same religion used to brainwash Africans into believing that heaven is in the sky and that slavery was ordained by God.

You are clearly demonstrating that you have no real understanding of true Christianity. Interesting, however, your friend and mine, Clyde, identifies himself as a Christian, I suppose one of the members of the council on black correctness fails to fall in line with black correctness.

The "FACT"s you have cited are OPINIONS, not fact.

At the very best, if a black Christian is totally decieved, he is simply wrong in his convictions, not a self-hater as you would describe.




FACT - the slavery in Dafur is because of RACE, ECONOMICS AND POLITICS - JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOING TO SAVE THEM -

Nothing else has.



FACT - what you call fashion emulation is actually a form of jealousy or envy which destroy the soul When you consider that the kingdom of God is within you - as a Christian you recognize that you are made in the image of your God (GIFT OF DIVINITY); then distorting your temple is a reflection of your unique fingerprint, spiritual rejection within your self for that outside of you.

All fashions and cultures pick and choose things from one another that they admire or find attractive. Whites do it of us, we do it of whites. It doesn't make one a self-hater, thats rediculus. Are you telling me you reject EVERYTHING from White culture?? You are distorting your temple as a reflection of your unique fingerprint.

Again, this is simply your opinion which demonstrates your misunderstanding of Christian principles.


In none of your arguments do you cite references for support, not once have you used a Black author, an African leader or an African movement to support your position - do you have any literature or reference to help support your opinions?

Which specific argument would you like me to cite a reference for?


If the activities of your brothers & sisters are none of your business, then that ought to include their personal decision to kill one another?
unless you're on an evangelist quest for converts?????

Because this is a decision which effects the collective. In the last 6 months or so, I have personally met 3 parents who have lost sons to this REAL self-hatred. I, or my sons might be the next victim. 6,400 is a not of men, my number might be up....therefore it is very much my business. It is not my business when it don't effect the collective.


Religion and politics go hand in hand, they are even referred to in the Bible as the towers of Boaz and Jachin. The so called separation of church and state has never actually taken place. I don't know if you study history but in order to make a point here you need to do better research in this area.

You clearly don't understand dispensations. You don't understand how The New Testiment Church has an obligation to obey laws and be good citizens as long as they do not conflict with Gods laws, but the New Testiment Church is NOT a part of the political process. Romans Chapter 13 goes into this.

You've misinterpreted the statistic of HIV in the community, which many people do and which the media knows most people will do. The exact premise is that 69% of new cases were reported by women of African American descent - not that 60% of all cases are African American women. Consider for a moment if you will the rest of the HIV studies that show a high rate of false positives for testing.
I fully understood that it referred to 69% of NEW cases....this is significantly disproportionate figure, don't you think. The DL men who are out there spreading this stuff and not telling the women are destructive to the collective. This is a form of self-hate that needs to be called out.


If you want to discuss HIV and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases I welcome that because it deserves it's own thread, which I believe was started previously and we can look for it and meet there. Dispelling myth and evaluating the role that being diagnosed with HIV means in terms of economics and again political control is very necessary to win this battle.

What I am willing to discuss on that subject is, HIV what is this disease, what are the symptoms, what are the treatments, and why are some people deliberately trying to spread it into their communities?
(see Trashman on YouTube)

The only thing I have to say about HIV/AIDS is that the Christian principle of avoiding fornication is 100% effective. For me as an individual, HIV/AIDS is a non-issue.

I will check out the trashman on YouTube. I do care about this issue because it has such a dramatic effect on the collective. I know what works for me and that the same can work for all others, but I also know that most people reject this Christian principle. They have freedom of choice to do so.


If you feel that the contents of this thread are not valid it is your PERSONAL CHOICE TO IGNORE THE THREAD, but at no time have you proven that what was presented is wrong. What you have said though is that the behavior you are concerned with is not condoned in the bible....

I will not continue a discussion with you or anyone else who uses the Bible as their sole reference for morality, I'm not anti-Bible, I actually own an African Heritage Study Bible. I just believe it's really not productive nor the path I wish to walk at this time.

p.s Have you ever read the ISIS Papers?


No, I have not read the ISIS papers. This thread is not about the bible or morality. It is about "Overcoming self-hate" and who the lable of "self-hater" should be applied. That is my only point. If you are wanting to address our most destructive problems and feel that fighting what you describe as "self-hate", you are fighting the wrong enemy. Women who choose to straighten their hair or where contact lenses are not the enemy. The 286k men and 117k women who choose to marry non-blacks are not the enemy. People who choose things that fail to meet your approval are not the destructive enemy you make them out to be.

You have not mentioned any TANGIBLE problems that these decisions make. Your biggest claim is that they destroy the soul, My soul is in very good condition.

I Forgive you for your inferences and for trying to incite unpleasant feelings.

Bi-racial children always have something to offer, which is a unique insight that if we choose to listen to their stories can be productive. If we tell them how they ought to feel, then we miss the benefit of their experience, as I believe you have done here.

If I was Chinese and Japanese, I would have the struggle of that political war to contend with as well, for many Chinese have not forgotten the Japanese invasion, and while the parents may have fallen in love with one another, their union didn't heal the hearts of the Nations involved. CAN YOU OVERSTAND THAT BROTHER?

My mother was not raped, my parents have been together for over thirty years, so no I am not the product of hate. My life has had the experience of both privilege and oppression, if you can open your mind to relate to that paradox you will see deeper than the surface arguments being made.

I remember watching Anne Rice's movie "Feast of All Saints", and it's about the mixed and free class in New Orleans. There were some things I could relate to as a bi-racial person, that I guess frankly others do not relate to.
For the sake of your own progeny, you need to consider that all of their experiences will be different, especially in the US of A, and when they approach you to discuss different topics, such as interracial love, if you get as defensive with them as you have been here, you will miss the opportunity to learn, love, and grow.

God Bless you Brother Excel, and once again .... I Forgive You

I Forgive you for your inferences and for trying to incite unpleasant feelings.

Bi-racial children always have something to offer, which is a unique insight that if we choose to listen to their stories can be productive. If we tell them how they ought to feel, then we miss the benefit of their experience, as I believe you have done here.

If I was Chinese and Japanese, I would have the struggle of that political war to contend with as well, for many Chinese have not forgotten the Japanese invasion, and while the parents may have fallen in love with one another, their union didn't heal the hearts of the Nations involved. CAN YOU OVERSTAND THAT BROTHER?

My mother was not raped, my parents have been together for over thirty years, so no I am not the product of hate. My life has had the experience of both privilege and oppression, if you can open your mind to relate to that paradox you will see deeper than the surface arguments being made.

I remember watching Anne Rice's movie "Feast of All Saints", and it's about the mixed and free class in New Orleans. There were some things I could relate to as a bi-racial person, that I guess frankly others do not relate to.
For the sake of your own progeny, you need to consider that all of their experiences will be different, especially in the US of A, and when they approach you to discuss different topics, such as interracial love, if you get as defensive with them as you have been here, you will miss the opportunity to learn, love, and grow.

God Bless you Brother Excel, and once again .... I Forgive You


Girl, you got me waving a fan in front of my face and it is 30 degrees outside. Another great post!


I forgive you to excell.:angel:



Astrologer4U

I Forgive you for your inferences and for trying to incite unpleasant feelings.

Bi-racial children always have something to offer, which is a unique insight that if we choose to listen to their stories can be productive. If we tell them how they ought to feel, then we miss the benefit of their experience, as I believe you have done here.

If I was Chinese and Japanese, I would have the struggle of that political war to contend with as well, for many Chinese have not forgotten the Japanese invasion, and while the parents may have fallen in love with one another, their union didn't heal the hearts of the Nations involved. CAN YOU OVERSTAND THAT BROTHER?

My mother was not raped, my parents have been together for over thirty years, so no I am not the product of hate. My life has had the experience of both privilege and oppression, if you can open your mind to relate to that paradox you will see deeper than the surface arguments being made.

God Bless you Brother Excel, and once again .... I Forgive You

If you precieved my statement as trying to incite unpleasent feelings, I appreciate you being big enough to forgive me. I really do. I certainly wasn't trying to incite unpleasent feelings for you. I stated that I thought of you as a wonderful person.

On the other hand, I have paid close attention to your insight and your reason and I find it courious to say the least. My comment was not to suggest that I believed you were concieved in hate, but that based on your own claims, you seem to believe that a black person who engages in interracial relationships is demonstrating symptoms of self-hate. Therefore based on your claim, the only logical conclusion leads me to believe that one or both of your parents are self-haters.

I don't understand how you can cast this general judgement upon the black race, yet somehow it doesn't effect either of your parents. I am being facetious here, but by mentioning the duration of your parents relationship does this mean that in 7 more years my children will be validated as not the product of a relationship based on "self-hatred"???

You mention the Chinese and the Japanese. The discussion about "overcoming self-hate" is not relative to rather the NATION has healed, but whether a Chinese person who falls in love with and marries a Japanese person is demonstrating symptoms of "self-hate" for marrying the Japanese person although his NATION has not healed. Not everyone in a nation heals at the same pace, must one wait until the collective heals until he can act independently without "council" scrutiny???

Again, I stress the fact that I did not mention your parents to incite unpleasent feelings. They are very relevant, however in our discussion of you authority to deem certain behavior as self-hatred, specifically to exercise the freedom of choice to marry a person of another race. This is just one of the many choices you have called into question as being symptoms of self-hatred. As indicated previously, I appreciate your insight, but I am not trying to tell you how you feel, you are trying to tell me how I feel, that I have an "extreme hatred of my own race" because I have committed an infraction against the rules and bylaws of the "council on Black correctness". Can you not "OVERSTAND" the hypocricy of your claim here? You tell me I have symptoms of "self-hatred" yet your parents who apparently made the same choice I did, are not self-haters. You suggest I am trying to tell you how you feel, rather than listen to your unique insight yet you insist on invoking an authority you do not have by telling me, a full grown, free man, that I feel self-hatred based on your description of self-hate.

Girl, you got me waving a fan in front of my face and it is 30 degrees outside. Another great post!


I forgive you to excell.:angel:



Astrologer4U

That's mighty "White" of you. :qqb011: I never seen someone so sweet, yet so hateful at the same time. :-)

Bi-racial children always have something to offer, which is a unique insight that if we choose to listen to their stories can be productive. If we tell them how they ought to feel, then we miss the benefit of their experience, as I believe you have done here.

I remember watching Anne Rice's movie "Feast of All Saints", and it's about the mixed and free class in New Orleans. There were some things I could relate to as a bi-racial person, that I guess frankly others do not relate to.
For the sake of your own progeny, you need to consider that all of their experiences will be different, especially in the US of A, and when they approach you to discuss different topics, such as interracial love, if you get as defensive with them as you have been here, you will miss the opportunity to learn, love, and grow.

God Bless you Brother Excel, and once again .... I Forgive You[/SIZE][/COLOR]
I have thought long and hard on your comments here. As I previously indicated, I find the very courious. I don't think I am being defensive as you claim, but I find your perspective very wierd for the following reasons:

It is your claim that a black person who engages in "interracial love" is demonstrating symptoms of "self-hate".

You are advocating that we must "Overcome self-hate".

Your father and mother are engaged in "interracial love".

If I understood you correctly, you claim you are not the product of self-hate. This seems to be a direct contradiction to your position that a black person who engages in "interracial love" is demonstrating symptoms of "self-hate".

Your advocancy that we must "Overcome self-hate", IMO can only mean that you (in the unique and specific individual that you are) should not exist. Based on your claim, your black parent should have overcame "self-hate", not loved your white parent and thereby not concieved you. So, had "self-hate" been overcome 10 months before you were born, you would not exist.

This is what I find so amazingly strange about your assertion concerning "self-hate":

Based on your description of what symptoms of "self-hate" is, the case you are most close to have reaped apparently GOOD results.

A strong & loving 30 + year relationship.

At least one smart and articulate offspring.

As I mentioned, I don't think I am being defensive about this, but i ask that by the same token, you not be defensive as well. I talk with my children about these things frequently and don't think they would agree with you at all, but I am willing to consider the possibility that they withhold some feelings...but, I really don't think this is the case. Please don't think this to be meant derogotory towards you, but it seems you are more so demonstrating "self-hate", IF ANYONE. It seems your parents are happy and satisfied with who they are and their choice to be with one another, but you (at no fault of your own) seem unhappy with your true identity. You seem to seek, and have largely found, acceptance from blacks (1/2 of you) by speaking against whites (the other half of you). If I am wrong, please correct me. I don't want to insult or offend you, I want to understand you. I don't want to TELL you how you feel, I want to tell you what I percieve from your statements and adopted positions.

Although I profoundly dissagree with you on this matter, I feel a fatherly connection with you. I have seen a lot of internal conflict among bi-racial people, especially among those who are raised by a white mother after the black father has skipped out on them. It is nothing less than a miracle that Barack Obama is as level headed as he. So, it is amazing that you are the product of an intact, 30+ year relationship and now speaks out against such relationships as being a symptom of "self-help" is so profoundly odd that I just want to understand it. I want to learn, grow, and love.

Overcoming Self Hate Part II




Sister phynxofkmt,

Your attention is pointed to my post #7 on page 1 of this thread. Somehow this particular posted reply was overlooked, understandably, due to some appearances of personal rather than universal, if you will, discourse.

To explain post #7, it merely extracted some over-lapping ideals that may be incorporated into the well-read plan of one of our scholars, Carter G. Woodson’s Mis-Education of the Negro. As previously promised, this particular post conveys my intent to do so, but out of respect for you as thread starter, I patiently await your response to post #7.

Overcoming Self Hate Part II




Sister phynxofkmt,

Your attention is pointed to my post #7 on page 1 of this thread. Somehow this particular posted reply was overlooked, understandably, due to some appearances of personal rather than universal, if you will, discourse.


I happened to be one of the members of the group you all describe as being self-haters. I would think that by dealing directly with a "self-hater" this would be an excellent opportunity to show us "self-haters" the error of our ways.

When attempting to FIX other people of "problems" that don't effect you AND the people you are trying to FIX don't think they are BROKEN, it becomes neccessary to break things down to a personal level. Therefore, if you want solutions, rather than just gripping about people you don't agree with, the discourse must be personal. Not necessarily hostile, but the personal examples become relevant and very necessary for success.

(((excell10K))) :1on1:

phynxofkmt,

After a thorough read, several issues are found to be over-lapping, and are without known solutions. As mentioned, I will take the below quotes over to the original thread for incorporation into the process Astrologer4U and I are formulating, and will cut and paste back to this second thread for our discussion toward a panacea of Self-Hate.

Also, there seems to be distinct paths between the two threads. In the original we are pursuing Self-Hate as it applies directly to Black People, while here the focus turns to general Self-Hate among people with attention given to the individual.

For clarity, our intent, in the original, is not to define astrology as the “tool of self-love,” but more so as the science it is in conjunction with Carter G. Woodson’s plan to uplift the Negro. Nevertheless, our discussions here will continue as agreed in development, and creative problem solving. Below are the over-laps:

1. What we must understand and AGREE ON, is that exposure to external hate eventually becomes internalized, and this we cannot heal, we can only return to the source of which is comes. How we can combat external hate is to make every effort consciously to not accept or agree with the messages sent our direction.

2. Amos Wilson addresses changing our parental attitudes and child-rearing practices, which I believe deserve their own thread. And on a large level we can make the exodus away from external hate once we are armed with the ability to generate self-acceptance.

3. As Dr. Claude Anderson spoke of in Powernomics, "we are the only people who keep trying to integrate".
It is this continued attempt at integration that leaves us vulnerable to external hate becoming a part of ourselves, and it is this mindset that must be recognized and healed.



Above, I have highlighted the over-lapping issues, and their unfounded solutions. One of which is our internalizing of racialist external hate that hasn’t been healed. Two, we must change our parental attitude and our child rearing practices, and three, it is our continued effort at integration which mindset must be recognized as in need of healing.



for my distraction and not replying promptly to this intelligent post.

Let's First Address the External Hate:

As for returning to external messages back to where they come i believe this is a two step process. The first part is mental: we must uncover those beliefs on a subconscious level, and then reprogram our minds. Once we actually incorporate new thinking, the second part being physical happens, because our actions support new positive beliefs about our selves. Like the saying goes, your butt follows where your mind leads it!

I had the opportunity to learn how to re-pattern beliefs. I have not taken the licensing level, so I am not legally entitled to teach the system with others, I could be held liable for copyright infringement. However, I'm considering approaching the creator with a proposal to use her system but to tailor it from an African holistic model. In the meantime, I will share with you what I discovered.

Our beliefs can be held in the tissues of our bodies, or cellular memory based on experiences of our own, or DNA. Beliefs can also be held at the soul level, or subconscious level. In order to let go of what we don't want we have to replace it with something we do want. Muscle testing is one method of determining what our beliefs are and where they are being held.

When I began this process many years ago, I worked on general beliefs that held me back. Beliefs that I wasn't good enough, or that I didn't deserve to experience happiness, etc.... Since then I have used it to unearth a host of beliefs that shocked me; especially when it came to race. For example, I discovered that on the chakra levels (root, sacral, solar plexus, heart, throat, ajna and crown) I did not expect to experience Justice because I was Black!

The power of our expectations is what is given to us, not what we ask for. We can pray, meditate, and beg the universe to make us wealthy in body and spirit, but if we expect to experience hardship and strife, that is what we will get instead! So, the messages we receive about our Blackness reside in many areas of our consciousness, and may take time and patience to discover and reprogram. Movies and news programs that focus on us as VICTIMS is very damaging, it seeks to STEAL OUR POWER.

In the meantime, what we can do, is find ways to exorcise those negative messages, by removing ourselves from the source. Although the source may be an employer, a teacher who is a bigot, a neighbor with an attitude, or just the daily news. We can look at a message and know that it doesn't belong to us when we have no emotional response to it. When something bothers us, it means there is a part of us that is attached a truth to it. Does that make sense?

I'd like to skip point 2 for now, as I agree it deserves it's own thread. What I would like to discuss is the economic embargo on Black communities. Now, it's not uncommon to see Black folks shopping in ethnic communities outside of their own, but how often do you see non-Blacks entering Black communities for services? I have to ask this question here, it is not rhetorical, because out West where I live, there isn't enough populace to have formed segregated communities.

I believe that the key to our economic growth is to turn the tables around so that non-Blacks have to enter our communities for products and services they deem necessary and desirable. In order to do that at least 2 things need to happen:

1. Business loans and capital needs to be available for Black business owners.

2. The communities need to be cleaned up to resemble those of other neighborhoods. By that I mean, no boys on the corner in white tees selling wares, and residential responsibility for aesthetic maintenance of property. What others won't do for us, we must do for ourselves.

3. Reverse the stereotype that Black people are dangerous. Using psycholinguistic marketing and reverse psychology we can make our communities and services very desirable... we have to play on the subconscious desire of most whites to have color, to get "soulful", etc....

Sounds underhanded? Maybe it is, but didn't Brother Akil say we must learn from our time with them. Watch and listen to the techniques they use so that we can liberate ourselves, just as they learned from us?

We cannot appear to wear our politics on our sleeves, but rather stay militant in our mindset, and approachable on the exterior. Each city has to have a coherent chain of command, and gangs need to be absorbed into the program. It is simply disastrous to have our young men running around angry and looking to kill one another. Instead, they ought to be trained properly, in the areas of survival and emergency response, to serve as protection for the community not as parasites on it.

sorry gotta run. This message will self explode in 7 secs....

Forgive me,

for my distraction and not replying promptly to this intelligent post.

Let's First Address the External Hate:

As for returning to external messages back to where they come i believe this is a two step process. The first part is mental: we must uncover those beliefs on a subconscious level, and then reprogram our minds. Once we actually incorporate new thinking, the second part being physical happens, because our actions support new positive beliefs about our selves. Like the saying goes, your butt follows where your mind leads it!

I had the opportunity to learn how to re-pattern beliefs. I have not taken the licensing level, so I am not legally entitled to teach the system with others, I could be held liable for copyright infringement. However, I'm considering approaching the creator with a proposal to use her system but to tailor it from an African holistic model. In the meantime, I will share with you what I discovered.

Our beliefs can be held in the tissues of our bodies, or cellular memory based on experiences of our own, or DNA. Beliefs can also be held at the soul level, or subconscious level. In order to let go of what we don't want we have to replace it with something we do want. Muscle testing is one method of determining what our beliefs are and where they are being held.

When I began this process many years ago, I worked on general beliefs that held me back. Beliefs that I wasn't good enough, or that I didn't deserve to experience happiness, etc.... Since then I have used it to unearth a host of beliefs that shocked me; especially when it came to race. For example, I discovered that on the chakra levels (root, sacral, solar plexus, heart, throat, ajna and crown) I did not expect to experience Justice because I was Black!

The power of our expectations is what is given to us, not what we ask for. We can pray, meditate, and beg the universe to make us wealthy in body and spirit, but if we expect to experience hardship and strife, that is what we will get instead! So, the messages we receive about our Blackness reside in many areas of our consciousness, and may take time and patience to discover and reprogram. Movies and news programs that focus on us as VICTIMS is very damaging, it seeks to STEAL OUR POWER.

In the meantime, what we can do, is find ways to exorcise those negative messages, by removing ourselves from the source. Although the source may be an employer, a teacher who is a bigot, a neighbor with an attitude, or just the daily news. We can look at a message and know that it doesn't belong to us when we have no emotional response to it. When something bothers us, it means there is a part of us that is attached a truth to it. Does that make sense?

I'd like to skip point 2 for now, as I agree it deserves it's own thread. What I would like to discuss is the economic embargo on Black communities. Now, it's not uncommon to see Black folks shopping in ethnic communities outside of their own, but how often do you see non-Blacks entering Black communities for services? I have to ask this question here, it is not rhetorical, because out West where I live, there isn't enough populace to have formed segregated communities.

I believe that the key to our economic growth is to turn the tables around so that non-Blacks have to enter our communities for products and services they deem necessary and desirable. In order to do that at least 2 things need to happen:

1. Business loans and capital needs to be available for Black business owners.

2. The communities need to be cleaned up to resemble those of other neighborhoods. By that I mean, no boys on the corner in white tees selling wares, and residential responsibility for aesthetic maintenance of property. What others won't do for us, we must do for ourselves.

3. Reverse the stereotype that Black people are dangerous. Using psycholinguistic marketing and reverse psychology we can make our communities and services very desirable... we have to play on the subconscious desire of most whites to have color, to get "soulful", etc....

Sounds underhanded? Maybe it is, but didn't Brother Akil say we must learn from our time with them. Watch and listen to the techniques they use so that we can liberate ourselves, just as they learned from us?

We cannot appear to wear our politics on our sleeves, but rather stay militant in our mindset, and approachable on the exterior. Each city has to have a coherent chain of command, and gangs need to be absorbed into the program. It is simply disastrous to have our young men running around angry and looking to kill one another. Instead, they ought to be trained properly, in the areas of survival and emergency response, to serve as protection for the community not as parasites on it.

sorry gotta run. This message will self explode in 7 secs....





Sister phynxofkmt,

You are forgiven! Is there anything to: "This message will self explode in 7 secs...."? If it is, I missed it:).

All Red Quotes on external hate are significant and parallel exactly with what I have unscored as over-laps. It is this info I intend to cut and paste over into the Original Thread that Astrologer4U and I continue in pursuit of such a mechanism that will provide the mental activity and subconsious probing you have indicated is necessary. Meanwhile we(you and I) will continue this discussion and exploration exercise.

By all means phynxofkmt, please contact the creator of the "re-pattern beliefs" for confirmation to modify as you have suggested. The answer to your question: "Does that make sense" is yes, and lines up with Woodson's plan of uplift for the Negro, as does all that I have carefully underscored. And likewise, our plan is to merge these paths of solutions into a compilation of sorts that becomes beneficial to our people.

But please, explain the message self exploding in 7 secs. I take things seriously and cannot understand the connotation here!

Sorry Clyde, it was a one liner I thought was cute from the movie Mission Impossible, I used it as a connotation to exemplify the importance of the communication. I will refrain from attempted humor in this thread.


:zipit:

Bad one liner....

Sorry Clyde, it was a one liner I thought was cute from the movie Mission Impossible, I used it as a connotation to exemplify the importance of the communication. I will refrain from attempted humor in this thread.


:zipit:





Sister phynxofkmt,

Great one liner! As I now recall since you mentioned it that was the source of the famous one liner:). Believe me, had I remembered, I never would have called you on it. Please, I know a little something about dry humor, which many failures are documented throughout this forum; so, don’t change on account of me, keep it coming :). It was very thoughtful and does fit well with what we are attempting to do.

phynxofkmt, will you be making an effort to contact the creator of the source materials on “re-pattern belief,” it wasn’t made clear from this quote that you would?

Sister phynxofkmt,

Great one liner! As I now recall since you mentioned it that was the source of the famous one liner:). Believe me, had I remembered, I never would have called you on it. Please, I know a little something about dry humor, which many failures are documented throughout this forum; so, don’t change on account of me, keep it coming :). It was very thoughtful and does fit well with what we are attempting to do.

phynxofkmt, will you be making an effort to contact the creator of the source materials on “re-pattern belief,” it wasn’t made clear from this quote that you would?



I will be contacting her before the New Year

Yes


I will be contacting her before the New Year




Sister phynxofkmt,

Interesting, before the New Year is right around the corner, so to speak:)! Thanks phynxofkmt!

As per our discussion Brother Clyde, the letter of interest has been sent. I will contact you again when I have received the good news!

Letter of proposal sent


As per our discussion Brother Clyde, the letter of interest has been sent. I will contact you again when I have received the good news!




Sister phynxofkmt,

That is good news Sister, and thank you for your persistence and your tenacity. Don't forget about Group Think, K:).

This is the reply I had from the Creator of the Belief Re-patterning Program:


Hello
Wonderful to hear from you!
I would love to discuss your ideas – either on the phone or in person.
I have always held a space for you to be a Practitioner – and the Facilitation process you are contemplating is a next step. We have a program in place for the concept you are contemplating.
Give my office a call and let’s set up something. Are you still living in Canmore?
Looking forward to hearing your voice!
:) Suze

Now, Brother Clyde, there are some particulars that I will personally have to have in order to complete these steps myself. We can PM about that. All I ask is for the prayers and supplications to our ancestors that I can complete this because I believe it is meant to be, and it is important!

The Ball is Rolling


This is the reply I had from the Creator of the Belief Re-patterning Program:


Hello
Wonderful to hear from you!
I would love to discuss your ideas – either on the phone or in person.
I have always held a space for you to be a Practitioner – and the Facilitation process you are contemplating is a next step. We have a program in place for the concept you are contemplating.
Give my office a call and let’s set up something. Are you still living in Canmore?
Looking forward to hearing your voice!
:) Suze

Now, Brother Clyde, there are some particulars that I will personally have to have in order to complete these steps myself. We can PM about that. All I ask is for the prayers and supplications to our ancestors that I can complete this because I believe it is meant to be, and it is important!




phynxofkmt,

Of course my prayers and supplications to our ancestors on your behalf will forever be forthcoming, I wouldn't have it any other way. This is very significant and the import speaks to leaving the legacy we have come to accept and understand.

All this is very exciting, and there is no rush though there is a sense of urgency. Our steps must be cautious and, but effective. And I look forward to working out the kinks through PM's.

Sister phynxofkmt,

Are you and Suze any closer with the Facilitation process?

Sister phynxofkmt,

Are you and Suze any closer with the Facilitation process?



submitting a payment proposal to her, and her assistant & I will converse again on Monday 09. The course is one weekend in April, and then the following 6 months is building your business under her mentorship.

I am so grateful that with the passing of time, the body and mind are able to grow, and to change. With that said, I have come to appreciate and fully endorse the importance of our natal charts, and astrology in deciphering our patterns of self-love or self-destruction.

Although I am unable to complete a natal chart, I can overstand why our ancestors studied the heavens. Moments of opportunities, moments of mayhem and obstacles can all be forseen with the trained eye & records.

Some days it is best to lay low until certain planets finish opposing one another, and some relationships are meant to be for a season. a reason or a lifetime. Astrology can guide us through the darkness of the night sky until the Sun returns to show our way.

Solomon, David, Sheba, the Yoruba, my ancestors, your ancestors practiced and mastered this language. We can too, especially with the patient guidance from our learned scholars here at Destee.

Thank you Sister A4U for opening my heart~mind, and my third eye to more degrees of consciousness. 360 I can feel you coming!

I am so grateful that with the passing of time, the body and mind are able to grow, and to change. With that said, I have come to appreciate and fully endorse the importance of our natal charts, and astrology in deciphering our patterns of self-love or self-destruction.

Although I am unable to complete a natal chart, I can overstand why our ancestors studied the heavens. Moments of opportunities, moments of mayhem and obstacles can all be forseen with the trained eye & records.

Some days it is best to lay low until certain planets finish opposing one another, and some relationships are meant to be for a season. a reason or a lifetime. Astrology can guide us through the darkness of the night sky until the Sun returns to show our way.

Solomon, David, Sheba, the Yoruba, my ancestors, your ancestors practiced and mastered this language. We can too, especially with the patient guidance from our learned scholars here at Destee.

Thank you Sister A4U for opening my heart~mind, and my third eye to more degrees of consciousness. 360 I can feel you coming!


This is great news to hear of. Thanks Phynx for giving Astrology some fair thought...





Astrologer4U

.............change of heart

Sisters phynxofkmt and Astrologer4U, now that we appear to all be on point and on track and completely reconciled, will we now re-start the process of finishing this very serious project for the betterment of Black People and ourselves? Afterall, the project has been patiently waiting on the three of us to get this done, but only if we apply ourselves by just getting started...Peace In my two(2) beautiful Sisters, for real

Solomon, David, Sheba, the Yoruba, my ancestors, your ancestors practiced and mastered this language. We can too, especially with the patient guidance from our learned scholars here at Destee.

Thank you Sister A4U for opening my heart~mind, and my third eye to more degrees of consciousness. 360 I can feel you coming!


This is great news to hear of. Thanks Phynx for giving Astrology some fair thought...

Bumped for my sisters phyxofkmt and Astrology4U, for real.