Hetep!
In the three monolatristic faiths there is a group of people who serve as the focal point and chief proponents of the worship of the called called El. This group of people are called hebrews. In the scriptures of these faiths the first person to receive the appelation of Hebrew is the man called Ibrahim/Abraham. Ibrahim had two sons Ismail/Ishmael and Ishaq/Isaac, who then developed two nations, Hebrews and Arabs, both keeping the root from which their name derived in them, the aramaic word awbar. According to the Hebrew Lexican awbar means the following:
5674 `abar aw-bar' a primitive root; to cross over; used very widely of any transition (literal or figurative; transitive, intransitive, intensive, causative); specifically, to cover (in copulation):--alienate, alter, X at all, beyond, bring (over, through), carry over, (over-)come (on, over), conduct (over), convey over, current, deliver, do away, enter, escape, fail, gender, get over, (make) go (away, beyond, by, forth, his way, in, on, over, through), have away (more), lay, meddle, overrun, make partition, (cause to, give, make to, over) pass(-age, along, away, beyond, by, -enger, on, out, over, through), (cause to, make) + proclaim(-amation), perish, provoke to anger, put away, rage, + raiser of taxes, remove, send over, set apart, + shave, cause to (make) sound, X speedily, X sweet smelling, take (away), (make to) transgress(-or), translate, turn away, (way-)faring man, be wrath.
Thus the Hebrews, whether called Hebrews or Arabs, are a group of people who crossed over, who escaped, who left one place to go to another. Also interesting is the connotation this word has in the Akan languages, where the word for hebrew is expressed as afrimu-or a people who seceeded or left a larger group of people. Thus the Hebrews are a group of people who left a larger group of people to dedicate themselves to a certain idea and culture. Based on linguistic evidence and comparative culture, there is evidence that the root group of these people were an African people dwelling within continental Africa. With the beginning understanding of the meaning of Hebrew, it calls us to now reevaluate our classifying of them as a people, and a reassessment of the culture which they presented to the world.
At the present my time to post is limited, however this post was simply meant to introduce the idea, and 'till the soil' if you will, to be followed by the planting of the seed.

Hetep!
In the three monolatristic faiths there is a group of people who serve as the focal point and chief proponents of the worship of the called called El. This group of people are called hebrews. In the scriptures of these faiths the first person to receive the appelation of Hebrew is the man called Ibrahim/Abraham. Ibrahim had two sons Ismail/Ishmael and Ishaq/Isaac, who then developed two nations, Hebrews and Arabs, both keeping the root from which their name derived in them, the aramaic word awbar. According to the Hebrew Lexican awbar means the following:
5674 `abar aw-bar' a primitive root; to cross over; used very widely of any transition (literal or figurative; transitive, intransitive, intensive, causative); specifically, to cover (in copulation):--alienate, alter, X at all, beyond, bring (over, through), carry over, (over-)come (on, over), conduct (over), convey over, current, deliver, do away, enter, escape, fail, gender, get over, (make) go (away, beyond, by, forth, his way, in, on, over, through), have away (more), lay, meddle, overrun, make partition, (cause to, give, make to, over) pass(-age, along, away, beyond, by, -enger, on, out, over, through), (cause to, make) + proclaim(-amation), perish, provoke to anger, put away, rage, + raiser of taxes, remove, send over, set apart, + shave, cause to (make) sound, X speedily, X sweet smelling, take (away), (make to) transgress(-or), translate, turn away, (way-)faring man, be wrath.
Thus the Hebrews, whether called Hebrews or Arabs, are a group of people who crossed over, who escaped, who left one place to go to another. Also interesting is the connotation this word has in the Akan languages, where the word for hebrew is expressed as afrimu-or a people who seceeded or left a larger group of people. Thus the Hebrews are a group of people who left a larger group of people to dedicate themselves to a certain idea and culture. Based on linguistic evidence and comparative culture, there is evidence that the root group of these people were an African people dwelling within continental Africa. With the beginning understanding of the meaning of Hebrew, it calls us to now reevaluate our classifying of them as a people, and a reassessment of the culture which they presented to the world.
At the present my time to post is limited, however this post was simply meant to introduce the idea, and 'till the soil' if you will, to be followed by the planting of the seed.

You may want to thoroughly check out the forums on here...because we done beat this particular horse dead already....skinned it, tanned the hide and then hung it out to dry...:horse:

Hetep!
Jazakallahu bil kahir for the advice Bro. Keita. However, my intent is not so much as to engage in dialogue but using this forum as a sounding board to share relevant truths to the Original People, not discuss or debate their reality.

Hetep!

Hetep!
Jazakallahu bil kahir for the advice Bro. Keita. However, my intent is not so much as to engage in dialogue but using this forum as a sounding board to share relevant truths to the Original People, not discuss or debate their reality.
Hetep!


i don't think Bro. K is trying to dialogue
You may want to thoroughly check out the forums on here...because we done beat this particular horse dead already....skinned it, tanned the hide and then hung it out to dry...

check the source he give you he said check the forums (mainly spiritually and religion) but the Open Forum might include some information too.

bro. K has talked about it, typed about it, because he is all about it

man you could do a search on KEITA's posts and learn something

peace on your journey

Hetep!
Jazakallhu bil Khair Street So'ja. I think the response to Bro. Keita wasnt given in the spirit intended. I have looked over the threads in regards to the ethnic origin of the Hebrew people and find them very informative. However, by bringing the topic up in this particular forum the intent is to take the historical information about the identity of the Hebrews and see how it relates to an African understanding and practice of Al Islam. Yes, I can learn many things from Bro. Keita and the other forum members, and may re-hash a topic already presented, however the purpose is to use the fractions, facts, to paint an image of a cohesive afro-centric picture of Islam, rather than just establishing historical facts.
In sha'allah, this clears up the intent of both my original post and response.
Hetep!

Jazakallhu bil Khair Street So'ja. I think the response to Bro. Keita wasnt given in the spirit intended. I have looked over the threads in regards to the ethnic origin of the Hebrew people and find them very informative. However, by bringing the topic up in this particular forum the intent is to take the historical information about the identity of the Hebrews and see how it relates to an African understanding and practice of Al Islam.

Okay, here's what we'll do if it's okay with you; Here is my challenge.

1. First let's get into the etymology of the word "hebrew".

2. Then lets explore what historical representations we have of them to see if we can find a physical African reality of them.

3. Then lets get into the very first historical or spiritual/religious mention of their existence in terms of who they are said to be.

4. If we can make it past Abraham/Ibrahim that history clearly proves did not exist as a human being, then we are doing good.

5. Being that we already know that every religion in existence borrowed/stole their concepts/foundation from our people, there is no debate about where or if there is an African reality to Al Islam or any other religion.

6. Since history somehow has preserved the image of people who did much less than any of the Prophets that are written down as such exceptional men to have walked this earth...our next goal is to find some image of these Prophets and if we can't we must find out why not?...After all, it would go against human nature to somehow sculpt, paint, carve, draw and preserve the images of lesser men and then for some strange reason not preserve the image of men who are greater.

If you can make it this far we will be in a position to communicate further on this issue.


Yes, I can learn many things from Bro. Keita and the other forum members, and may re-hash a topic already presented, however the purpose is to use the fractions, facts, to paint an image of a cohesive afro-centric picture of Islam, rather than just establishing historical facts.

I understand you position and equally understand as Bro. Malcolm so well said; "History is best qualified to reward ALL RESEACH"...so in reality there is no way to escape history or the facts of it, for it is from the facts that a clear picture can be drawn or seen for what it is or is not....and this is coming from an ex Sunni, Shiite and Sufi, which I used to be before waking up to who we rally are.

In sha'allah, this clears up the intent of both my original post and response.
Hetep![/QUOTE]

Hetep Bro. Keita,
In regard to the second point, as i think the first one was discussed in the original post, I think we have a representation of the Hebrews from African history in the works of Manetho, or as Dr Darkwah says he should be called Omane Anto. In the works of Manetho he speaks of a group of people from Kem which were classified as 'lepers', seceeded or were removed from Kemetic society and became the people we know as the Hebrews. The linguistics support this theory as the speech of Kem is proto-semitic. Lepers in Kem does not denote, as it does in the bible, people who have physical whiteness, but rather denotes a group of societal outcast. If we read the account given by Manetho/Omane Anto, the place where these people retreated and the circumstances surrounding their expulsion, we see historical parallels between that story and the Atenist movement of Akenten. Also, I think agreat disservice has been done by seemingly meaning well historians and quote on quote teachers by designating the Heka Khasut as white people. In fact, the earliest references we have in Kem to the Heka Khasut refer to them as a Nubian group of people, which unmistakably akes them black, and provides other evidence as to the reality of these people called the Hebrews. (Also interesting to note that According to Wade Nobles the Purely African dynasties of Kem were the 1, 4, 18, and 25 dynasties, and the 18th is the one which saw the rise of Akenten and his Heka Khasut affinities, now that we can view the Heka Khasut as a Nubian people. As well as the designation of the Hebrew god as El, its derivation from Ra, and Akentens position before ascension to the throne as the Priest of Ra.)

Hetep Bro. Keita,[QUOTE]
In regard to the second point, as i think the first one was discussed in the original post, I think we have a representation of the Hebrews from African history in the works of Manetho, or as Dr Darkwah says he should be called Omane Anto. In the works of Manetho he speaks of a group of people from Kem which were classified as 'lepers', seceeded or were removed from Kemetic society and became the people we know as the Hebrews. The linguistics support this theory as the speech of Kem is proto-semitic.

1. The question is; Did Manetho actually exist? His name would accordingly if he was indeed an egyptian priest, be Mer-en-tehuti. You may want to explore the works of Kwesi Milton; "The Genesis of Writing Hieroglyphics"..The work of Paul Guthrie: "The Making of the Whiteman" and The work of W.G. Waddell; "Manetho". For in al three works and others I can list for you, they, according to the words of Manetho (assuming he was real) state that they were suffering from "WHITE SICKNESS". The woks of Manetho equally states that Osarseph the priest was sent to teach them and that it was while there with them that he changed his name to Moses.


Lepers in Kem does not denote, as it does in the bible, people who have physical whiteness, but rather denotes a group of societal outcast. If we read the account given by Manetho/Omane Anto, the place where these people retreated and the circumstances surrounding their expulsion, we see historical parallels between that story and the Atenist movement of Akenten. Also, I think agreat disservice has been done by seemingly meaning well historians and quote on quote teachers by designating the Heka Khasut as white people. In fact, the earliest references we have in Kem to the Heka Khasut refer to them as a Nubian group of people, which unmistakably akes them black, and provides other evidence as to the reality of these people called the Hebrews.

Linguistically our people in Kemet called them "Haribu"...which meant chief devils. The word "bu" in kemet was devil. We must not forget the walls painted during the 11th dynasty with the known races depicted on them in the works of Cheikh Anta Diop which equally displays the Hebrews in living color and they don't look like us!. The next phase is the invasion of 1675 by the hyksos or sheppard kings...for up until that point Kemet had never been occupied by outsiders. So how Dr. Nobles could designate which dynasties as being clearly African is beyond me.

The Kemitic language went through three developing stages, so at what stage are you referring to as "Proto'semitic"? Since Kemet was occupied originally by the people of Anu who sent the people out to occupy it after the dry land mass we now call Kemet came from under the water, where would they get a semitic language from when at that time there was no one on the earth at all but our people?

Hetep!
Yes it is true rhat Manetho did say that Osarseph was Moses. However, this does not disprove the theory. As these people existed as a group, and were then led out of Kem by Musa. The point was asking if there is a place in history where we have a mention of them as a reality. Where do you get that Habiru means chief devils? Where do you get that bu means devil? For instance Ha Nebu means North Lords, where is the bu=devil coming from?
Manetho as an actual person does not matter, if that is the case we equally dont know if Akhenaten, Thutmose etc were real people as we know about them the awy we know about Manetho, historical documentation. Also the presence of the works of Manetho in so many varied classical works is additional proof that he, and or his writings, have some historical basis. Also, where is the proof that the Heka Khasut, Shepherd Kings, are a non-black people?? Because they are viewed as invaders soes not make them not black, as the Kemites had similar disdain for the Nubians. Also, we must remember that, according to Chancellor Williams, after a period of time Kem as a black population dwindled, and the masses of the people of Kem were mixed breeds, who had disdain for both the whites and Africans who were their progenitors. Thus we see references equally to the vile asiatic as well as the wretched cu****e.
This Anu and coming out the water reptilian stuff, where is this coming from? and what is its relevance to the identification of Kem?
Also in the Mythology of the Races series when discussing the habiru, it should be mentioned that they seemed to form a class within various North African and Near Eastern socities rather than a genetically homogenous group, and this is the current anthropological concensus.
Anu=Sumer, but we are speaking of Kem, and to introduce him to a discussion of what we know were originally Afrikans, smacks of the Dynastic Race Hypothesis of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, which sought to disconnect Kem from its Sub Saharan roots.

Hetep!
One more point. Linguistically by saying a language is "proto" anything we are not saying that it is derived from the language, but that that language is derived from it. So by kemetic speech being proto-semitic, it means the semitic languages are derived evolutionarily from it, and not it from them. Also, you make reference to three stages or what have you of Kemetic speech, these are evolutionary stages of the language of Kem itself, going from archaic forms to more advanced forms, and has nothing to do with which one is proto semitic, as all three are the same language simply at different stages of development.
Hetep.

Hetep!
I keep leaving out points...lol. But according to Maneho's actual words no reference is made at all to white skin or whiteness. This is assumed because of their connection with the heka Khasut, and the assumption that the Heka Khasut were white. I have read the words of Manetho himself from the classical sources and the words which mentioned in these other works are missing. In actuality the source of the hebrews as a white people is from Elijah Muhammad and his teaching of who were the Jews, and the making of the devil by Yaqub/Jacob the father of Israel.
Hetep!

Hetep!
Forgive my Anu=Sumer comment as i though it had reference to the God Anu rather than the city Annu. If the city is meant i aplogize for that misunderstanding.

Hetep!
Yes it is true rhat Manetho did say that Osarseph was Moses. However, this does not disprove the theory. As these people existed as a group, and were then led out of Kem by Musa. The point was asking if there is a place in history where we have a mention of them as a reality. Where do you get that Habiru means chief devils? Where do you get that bu means devil? For instance Ha Nebu means North Lords, where is the bu=devil coming from?
Manetho as an actual person does not matter, if that is the case we equally dont know if Akhenaten, Thutmose etc were real people as we know about them the awy we know about Manetho, historical documentation. Also the presence of the works of Manetho in so many varied classical works is additional proof that he, and or his writings, have some historical basis. Also, where is the proof that the Heka Khasut, Shepherd Kings, are a non-black people?? Because they are viewed as invaders soes not make them not black, as the Kemites had similar disdain for the Nubians. Also, we must remember that, according to Chancellor Williams, after a period of time Kem as a black population dwindled, and the masses of the people of Kem were mixed breeds, who had disdain for both the whites and Africans who were their progenitors. Thus we see references equally to the vile asiatic as well as the wretched cu****e.
This Anu and coming out the water reptilian stuff, where is this coming from? and what is its relevance to the identification of Kem?


You had me laughing for a minute there, that's good. Lets deal with first things first. I don't mess with no reptilian stuff or any of that. The oldest nation on the earth is Anu...aka, Cush, aka, Abyssinia,..aka, Ethiopia. Their history records that it was they who sent a colony of people out to occupy the land mass we now call Kemet. They have a history of that area when there was nothing there but water. In other words the dry land we call kemet did not even exist yet. It was they who sent Ausar...aka Osiris and his crew out to occupy the land mass we call Kemet. You with me now?


Right now I see what has to be done. You are a good brother and it's great that you're studying the way that you are. Right now I hate to do this to you but to keep it real...."you need my book"...I mean MY BOOK! It's called "Pulling No Punches The Religious Factor". Now I don't need to promote my stuff so here's what I'll do. You can speak with some brothers and sisters on the sight and ask them what they think of the work before you consider getting it. Ckeck with "Son of Ra" or "Emmanuel Goodman" or "Hiphopolx" or "Destee" or "Omowali" or "Oldsoul" just to name a few. Get their feedback on my work and then holla at me. You'll find my book an excellent resource with excellent resources in them in case you find the need to go further.

Sometimes you have to do more than study the works of the scholars...sometimes you have to study the scholar themselves just to see if they have any influences that might color their research. Like John H. Clark was basically raised in the church. Diop was a Muslim, Dr. Ben was a Mason. and I'm mentioning these things to say that if you don't study the scholar as well as the work you can miss some things sometimes....like J.A. Rogers was married to a white woman as was Diop. Do these type of things influence the research of scholars who claim to be looking for the truth?...most certainly. Dr. Wade Nobles is a psychologist, not a major historian...so if I was going to reference anything he said I would have to triple check it.

Now as for the other people you mentioned like ankhnaten and those brothers...well we have statues, pictures, carvings, bust....so their reality is not in question. By the way, some of the so called classical writers you mentioned didn't exist either but we'' have to get into that later. The point is that you have a lot of work to do and I'm glad to have met another brother on that quest.

Hetep!
Bro Keita I will look into your book and would be interested in reading it.
Also thanks for the information you gave me with regard to scholars and checking their work. However, my thoughts and written posts are passed not on scholarly research or reading historical works, which i do simply to provide evidence for others, but all of my assertions come from personal revelation given to me. And I think this is where we cross roads, im not doing research, rather I am giving what is given to me. I would be interested in your book info though, you can email me the details at divinesupreme7@aol.com.

good thread!i don't undrstand why it's so hard to see that ancient hebrews were blacks!You can see this in these pictures:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_assyrian_Hebrews_captivity.jpg

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_Assyrian_flaying.jpg

good thread!i don't undrstand why it's so hard to see that ancient hebrews were blacks!You can see this in these pictures:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_assyrian_Hebrews_captivity.jpg

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_Assyrian_flaying.jpg

A response would be Genesis 28:5.

For more information, let me know.

Blackbird

A response would be Genesis 28:5.

For more information, let me know.

Blackbird

what do you mean bro?

what do you mean bro?

What I mean is what does the Bible say? It speaks about Jacob, Israel, who's uncle was Laban the Syrian. The same people that the Assyrians originated from.

Blackbird

Hetep!
Yes it is true rhat Manetho did say that Osarseph was Moses. However, this does not disprove the theory. As these people existed as a group, and were then led out of Kem by Musa. The point was asking if there is a place in history where we have a mention of them as a reality. Where do you get that Habiru means chief devils? Where do you get that bu means devil? For instance Ha Nebu means North Lords, where is the bu=devil coming from?
Manetho as an actual person does not matter, if that is the case we equally dont know if Akhenaten, Thutmose etc were real people as we know about them the awy we know about Manetho, historical documentation. Also the presence of the works of Manetho in so many varied classical works is additional proof that he, and or his writings, have some historical basis. Also, where is the proof that the Heka Khasut, Shepherd Kings, are a non-black people?? Because they are viewed as invaders soes not make them not black, as the Kemites had similar disdain for the Nubians. Also, we must remember that, according to Chancellor Williams, after a period of time Kem as a black population dwindled, and the masses of the people of Kem were mixed breeds, who had disdain for both the whites and Africans who were their progenitors. Thus we see references equally to the vile asiatic as well as the wretched cu****e.
This Anu and coming out the water reptilian stuff, where is this coming from? and what is its relevance to the identification of Kem?
Also in the Mythology of the Races series when discussing the habiru, it should be mentioned that they seemed to form a class within various North African and Near Eastern socities rather than a genetically homogenous group, and this is the current anthropological concensus.
Anu=Sumer, but we are speaking of Kem, and to introduce him to a discussion of what we know were originally Afrikans, smacks of the Dynastic Race Hypothesis of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, which sought to disconnect Kem from its Sub Saharan roots.As-Salaamu Alaikum Ahki. I would suggest that u research the history of the Diven Father AY and I think u will get a clear understanding of the so-called hebrews and their origin/nationality. If u research this u will find after AKHENATEN'S death and the establishment of AMUN again, you have answers 2 all u speak of. Check out a book called"Secrets of the Exodus by Messod and Roger Sabbah". I think u will find it very interesting.

As-Salaamu Alaikum Ahki frm ur conscious Ahki.

good thread!i don't undrstand why it's so hard to see that ancient hebrews were blacks!You can see this in these pictures:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_assyrian_Hebrews_captivity.jpg

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Canaan/Canaan_Assyrian_flaying.jpg

Honestly, I have a particularly radical take on the Hebrews and their origin; you can blame this on my partial anthropology background.

I break my assessment down, in terms of:
1. Chronology/Timeline
2. Historical migrations and migration trends
3. Geopolitical interactions
4. Cultural themes and motifs
5. Biblical sources

Blackbird

Biblical sourceNow this is where the problem may exist

Now this is where the problem may exist

It's possible, but then that would turn the head on all the Abrahamic beliefs - including Islam.

Honestly, I have a particularly radical take on the Hebrews and their origin; you can blame this on my partial anthropology background.

I break my assessment down, in terms of:
1. Chronology/Timeline
2. Historical migrations and migration trends
3. Geopolitical interactions
4. Cultural themes and motifs
5. Biblical sources

Blackbird

These I understand and I actually have no issues with them being black...my contention is..."when did they become black?" We as African people done absorbed up a lot of people in our time and I'm basically saying that we did so with them also....meaning that history doesn't record them as starting off black...depending on whose research you choose to cross reference....cause the last and least reliable source we can use is the bible.