Spirituality Religion : The Difference Between the Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam [Archive] - Black People | African Americans

Aqil

11-30-2001, 09:17 AM

By Mustafa El-Amin

It is essential that the American people in general – and African-Americans in particular – know and realize that there are very clear differences in the teachings of the religion of Islam and the teachings of the Nation of Islam (NOI). In order for people to make an accurate and clear judgment or decision about anyone or anything, it is always best for them to have as much correct information as possible...

For about fifty years the teachings of the NOI was the dominant message in America concerning Islam and Muslims. Most people, particularly African-Americans, saw the teachings of the NOI as the “pure message” of Islam. However, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975 and the assuming of the organization's leadership by his son Wallace – who is now Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad – the old message of the NOI began to fade away and a new message and teaching came into existence.

The new message was based on the Holy Qur’an (Muslim holy book) and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last Messenger of Allah (swt). It is not a completely new message or teaching in the sense that it has never been taught or heard in the world before; but it was called “new” because it was new to the ears of the members of the NOI. They never heard the pure and true teachings of Islam before...

The majority of the members of the former NOI were able to grasp the new message, and have changed and accepted the religion of Islam as it is practiced by over 1.5 billion Muslims the world over. However, the majority of the American people still have not had the same opportunity to hear the clear message of the Islamic religion, and most African-Americans are still deprived and denied the opportunity to hear the true teachings of Islam...

The Concept of God According to the Religion of Islam

“It is Allah who is God in Heaven and God on Earth, and He is full of wisdom and knowledge.” (Sura 43:84)

Allah (God), according to the religion of Islam, is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He is in total charge of the entire creation. He has no beginning or ending. He was never born and will never die. He has always been in existence. Allah (God) is not a physical being. The Qur’an says, “No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision and He is above total comprehension, yet He is well acquainted with all things.” The Qur’an also states: “Say He is Allah, the one and only; God the eternal, absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” (Sura 112)

The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters. He is neither male nor female. He is the source of human life and gender. He just says, “Be” and it is. Allah (God) is responsible for the creation of every human being. He created all colors and made our features beautiful...

The concept of God in the religion of Islam is an extremely vast and important concept. Perhaps the most important aspect of Islam is the belief in the Oneness (tauhid) of God. This is very different from the beliefs and teachings of the Nation of Islam.

The Concept of God According to the Nation of Islam

“God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.6)

The God of the Nation of Islam is called "Master Fard Muhammad," an Arab who was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia on February 26, 1877. “We believe that Allah (God) came in the person of Master Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930,” it says in The Final Call newspaper. On p. 11 of Elijah Muhammad’s bookThe Supreme Wisdom: Solution to the So-called Negro’s Problem, it states that “Allah came to us from the Holy City of Mecca in 1930.” And on p.67 of his book Our Savior Has Arrived, there is the following statement: “The Muslims worship one God, Allah. ‘Say: He (Allah) is one God.’ Yet 99% of the Old World Muslims think that Allah is only a spirit and is not a man.”

According to the teachings of the NOI there were several gods from the beginning of time. They teach that these gods live and die and pass their knowledge and godship from one to another. They teach that God is a man and He always was a man, and that the First God created Himself from and out of total triple darkness (!)

The NOI also teaches that the Black man is God. They believe that one god created the Moon and another one created the Sun, stars, and the Earth. According to their teachings, about 70 trillion years ago one of the Black gods got angry and tried to destroy the Earth with “high explosives.” He was unsuccessful in his attempt to destroy the entire Earth, but he did blow it in half. The part that was separated was the Moon. (If you have any doubts about this read Message to the Black Man, or ask any minister of the NOI.)...

The God of the Nation of Islam marries, has sex, eats food and makes mistakes; he is a human being. They teach that one of the gods, named “Alfonso,” went to Europe and married a pure white woman who gave birth to a daughter, which was a mistake. The lesson says the god "Alfonso" said, “Oops, we missed that time.” He wanted a son, so he tried again and they had a son. This son inherited the godship. He was half Black and half white.

The NOI knows this son of the god "Alfonso" as W. Fard Muhammad. They teach that God manifested himself in Fard Muhammad, a Caucasian-looking Arab man. He came to America to seek and to save the African- American people. This man, Fard Muhammad – according to the teachings of the NOI – has the power to control the Heavens and the Earth, wind, hail, snow and rain...

The God of the NOI is not an eternal being. He dies and his wisdom “only lives 25,000 years.” According to their teachings the world is in the 25,000-year cycle of Fard Muhammad’s wisdom. In fact, he is supposed to be the greatest and wisest god to have ever lived. He looks like a Caucasian; his mother was a Caucasian woman from the hills of Europe. (According to Fard, there was another Black god – a scientist named “Yakub” who created the white man some 6,000 years ago.)

As you can clearly see, the concept of God in the religion of Islam is extremely different from that of the Nation of Islam. Over 1.5 billion Muslims believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented in the religion of Islam and the Holy Qur’an. Only a few thousand believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented by the NOI. In the religion of Islam Allah (God), the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, is eternal. The entire creation is His kingdom.

The God of the NOI is not eternal; his life is short-lived. In fact, I understand that the so-called leader of the NOI, Minister Louis Farrakhan, is attempting to change their Master Fard Muhammad from God to “Mahdi,” and replace Fard with the true Islamic concept of God. The concept of God in the religion of Islam can never be changed. Allah (swt) is bigger than everything – nothing can contain Him. The man Fard Muhammad, the God of the Nation of Islam, can be contained anywhere...

The Concept of Man According to the Religion of Islam

The Qur’an says that Allah (God) created man with a good nature. He created the human being “in the best mold.” Every human being is created in nobility. According to the religion of Islam every human being has a natural inclination towards good, righteousness and truth.

Man is entrusted with the role of leader in creation. Allah (swt) gave man a limited free will, and he can decide which road he wants to travel in life. The Qur’an also says that Allah (swt) gave the human being the gift of knowledge, and that man was given the knowledge of creation (Sura 2:31-32). The human being was created and raised above the angels (i.e., forces in nature)...

According to Islam every human being is created by one God, Allah (swt), The Most High. Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated in his farewell address that there is no superiority of a black over a white or a white over a black, or an Arab over a non-Arab, etc. Islam teaches that all humans have the same potential for progress. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “every person is born a Muslim.” Any human being can become a Muslim. Islam is not just for a particular group of people. Man is created perfect in his nature...

Islam makes a clear distinction between the God Allah (swt) and man. Allah (swt) is all-powerful and independent, whereas man is totally dependent on Allah (swt) for everything. However, Allah (swt) has given us the freedom to think and reason, and He has blessed us with intelligence. The Holy Qur’an says that man was created to worship Allah (swt); “Nay, but worship Allah and be of those who give thanks.” (Sura 39:66)

The Concept of Man According to the Nation of Islam

The concept of man in the Nation of Islam is quite different from that of the religion of Islam. The NOI teaches that there are two totally different human beings with extremely different natures: the Black man and the white man. They teach that the Black man is the original man; the owner, the maker, the cream of the planet Earth and the god of the Universe. The Black man is god; his nature is righteous. “The original man, Allah has declared, is none other than the Black man. The Black man is the first and last, maker and owner of the Universe. From him came all brown, red, yellow and white people.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.53)

Not only does the NOI teach that there are two different types of human beings, they also teach that they (black and white people) were created by different “gods.” They teach that the Black man is self-created, and that the white man was created by a Black man named “Yakub” 6,000 years ago. Yakub taught the white man wickedness; he also taught them how to rule the Black man (See Message to the Black Man, pp.103-122)

The NOI teaches something totally different from the religion of Islam. They teach that man is God; that man can evolve to such a high mental level until he becomes God. “God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man’s intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive. Let that one among you who believes that God is other than man prove it!” (Message to the Black Man, pp. 6,7)

The Qur’an says that during the time of Moses the disbelievers said similar things. “And remember ye said, ‘O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly’” (Sura 2:55). The holy book that is accepted by over 1.5 billion Muslims clearly states that Allah (swt) is the Owner and Maker of the Universe, not man. “He it is who created the Heavens and the Earth in truth.” (Sura 6:73) “Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon giving light; and it is He who made the night and day to follow each other.” (Sura 25:61-62)

And the Qur’an clearly states that man is created by Allah (swt) in Sura 55:14, which reads as follows: “The Beneficent hath made known the Qur’an. He hath created men; He hath taught him utterance.”...

The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an According to the Religion of Islam

The Holy Qur’an is the rule and guide of every Muslim. All Muslims accept and believe that the Qur’an is the last revelation from Allah (swt). The religion of Islam teaches that the Qur’an is a Divine Book for all times and climes. The Qur’an was revealed to the last prophet and messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saws). Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the work of Allah (swt), and that it is the highest body of knowledge on this planet...

The Qur’an is a pure and perfect book; it is a summation and confirmation of all the previous holy books. The religion of Islam teaches that no other revelation will come to man. The Qur’an is the last revelation. “All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness.” (Sura 18:2)

What the Nation of Islam Says About the Holy Qur'an

The NOI does not accept or teach that the Holy Qur’an was revealed by Allah (swt), or that it is the complete and final revelation from Allah (swt). The NOI teaches that the Qur’an was written by men. According to the teachings of the NOI, every 25,000 years a group of scientists come together to write a holy book. Thus, according to them, another holy book will come. For about fifty years the NOI taught that the Qur’an was to be used only for a certain period of time, and then another book would be written in its place. (See Message to the Black Man, p.91 & 97.)

The NOI does not teach that the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (saw) by Allah (swt). It teaches that “there is another book that none has been able to see or read; its contents coming soon from Allah – the ‘Last Book’ which takes us into the Hereafter.” Also, “the Holy Qur’an and the Glory Books should be read and studied by us, the so-called American Negro"...

Both the present Bible and the Holy Qur’an must soon give way to that Holy Book which no man as yet – but Allah – has seen.” And: “We, the original nation of the Earth...are the writers of the Bible and Qur’an. We make such history once every 25,000 years. When such history is written, it is done by 24 of our scientists. One acts as judge or god for the others and 23 actually do the work of getting up the future of the nation, and all is put into one book.

And at intervals where such and such part or portion will come to pass, that people will be given that part of the book through one among that people from one of the 12 major scientists, as it is then called a ‘scripture,’ which actually means a script of writing from something original, or book.” (Message to the Black Man, p.108)

In 1975, Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad, son of Elijah Muhammad, changed the teachings concerning the Holy Qur’an. He told NOI members that the Holy Qur’an is the final revelation and that no other book was coming. In fact, Imam Muhammad transformed the NOI into a totally new community. The majority of its members embraced the religion of Islam. Minister Louis Farrakhan, who calls himself the leader of the NOI, did not accept the changes and held on to the old teachings of the NOI. Imam Muhammad and the majority of the Muslims in America are not members of the NOI, headed by Min. Farrakhan...

It must be said here, however, that there are many things concerning the Qur’an that are taught by the NOI that agree with the religion of Islam’s teachings of the Muslim Holy Book. For example, Elijah Muhammad wrote in his book, Message to the Black Man that “the Holy Qur’an and Shari’ah contains some of the most beautiful prayers that one ever heard, read or recited. It is called 'The Glorious Qur’an,' and, without mistake, that is just what it is.” (p. 92)

(MUSTAFA EL-AMIN is the author of "The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference?")

Pharaoh Jahil

09-13-2003, 12:05 AM

Aqil, if you don't mind me asking. What are your personal views on the NOI?

Aqil

09-13-2003, 08:57 AM

Pharaoh Jah, see my thread "From the NOI to Orthodox Islam: A Historical Perspective"...it mirrors my personal views...

IssaEl21

05-21-2004, 11:27 AM

Imam W.D. Muhammad, son of Elijah Muhammad and leader of the American Muslim Mission, resigned last week...

Are You Sunni ????

Aqil

05-21-2004, 02:30 PM

Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, Bro. Issa. Yes I am...

IssaEl21

05-23-2004, 12:37 AM

Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, Bro. Issa. Yes I am...

As - Salaam - Alaykum - Wa - Rahmatu - llan - Wa - Baraakaatuhu - Kayfa - Haalaka < Aqil > May I Ask You A Few Question .
Araaka - Fiy - Ba'd - In - Shaa - A - Allah -

Aqil

05-23-2004, 08:25 AM

Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, Brother Issa. Nam, Insha'Allah...

IssaEl21

05-23-2004, 02:06 PM

Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, Brother Issa. Nam, Insha'Allah...
Aqil < Kafa - Haalaka >
Why Do Muslims Ignore That There Are Seven Salat Mentioned In The Quran ?
What Type Of Image Do Nubians / Blacks Have In Islam .
Araaka - Fiy - Maa - Ba'd - In - Shaa - A - Allah < Aqil >

Aqil

05-24-2004, 04:59 AM

Why do Muslims ignore that there are seven salat mentioned in the Qur'an?I am quite sure that those Muslims that know this do not ignore it...

What type of image do Nubians/Blacks have in Islam?
One of the ways many people know about Islam is through the TV footage of the Hajj. What is remarkable about this ritual is that people of all colors, races, and nationalities come together...and as they approach the Kaaba chant a simple verse; "O Lord! We have come to you."

This unity and uniformity comes directly from the universal concept of Oneness of God (Tauhid). The concept of tauhid in theological sense means God is one; in a mystical and spiritual sense it means Oneness with God, and at the social level it means all humanity is one under God. The Oneness of God; the oneness of life and of humanity is a unique contribution of Islam to human civilization. In the Qur’an mankind is one, under one God who nourishes, sustains, loves and guides.

The fact that humanity comes from one single source is the basic principle of faith and the differences between various nationalities, communities and races are nothing but a sign from Allah (swt). These differences are as much a sign from God as the revelation of the Qur’an itself.

“And it is a sign of Allah that he created the heavens and the earth And He created the diversity of languages and colors.” (Sura 30:22)

The positive value one can draw from this diversity is that it is a source of identity and mutual recognition.

“O Mankind! We created you from one source And then divided you into communities and nations So that you may know each other.” (Sura 49:13)

This diversity is a reason of celebration in the complexity and beauty of nature and not a basis for superiority of one group over another. The Holy Qur’an makes it clear that the only basis for distinction between people is their moral alertness (taqwa). The Qur’an emphasizes the importance of taqwa because it feels it binds people together even more than blood ties. As depicted in the story of Adam’s sons Cain and Abel, and the story of Joseph and his siblings. Without taqwa even brothers can kill and hurt each other. Without the moral vision of taqwa society can’t function properly.

This moral vision of Islam wasn’t confined to the the Qur’an, but was realized in a practical manner in the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw). The Prophet’s mission started in a society which placed a very high value on elitism. Arabs considered themselves superior to non-Arabs, and each tribe amongst the Arabs considered itself superior to others. This distinction - based on tribe and race - was very fundamental to the society in which Prophet Muhammad (saw) brought his mission. It is therefore quite remarkable that he was able to change these long-established beliefs and notions so quickly. Among his early converts were former slaves like the African Bilal the Abyssinian, the very first muezzin (caller to prayer) of the Islamic religion, and the powerful among the Quraish tribe like Omar and Abu Bakr.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was to forge a brotherhood of people of such diverse class, status and background with the moral message of Islam. At least one of the Prophet's wives was African. Her name was Maria the Copt. Two of the Prophet’s wives were Jewish...their names were Raihanah and Safiyah...

“O Muhammad! Even if you had spend the entire wealth of mankind to forge this love, you would not have been able to do so.” (Sura 8:63)

In the special model which Islam created, a former slave would call people for prayer, and Prophet Muhammad (saw) would lead the worship. The prayers were not merely rituals, because the mosque was essentially the center of all social, political and community activities. This equality and brotherhood in the mosque became the norm for relationships and attitudes in the community at large.

If the Prophet appeared to favor one person over the other because of status, the Qur’an immediately corrected him. The Qur’an comments on one incident where the Prophet was busy talking earnestly to a powerful Arab leader hoping to gain his conversion to Islam, and ignored or showed mild displeasure to a poor, blind person who interrupted the conversation:

“The Prophet frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man. And what would make you know that perchance he might grow in piety? Or that he might receive admonition and teaching might profit him?” (Sura 80:1-4)

Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) farewell sermon at the last Hajj he performed is a succinct summary of the major concepts in Islam. There he reinforced the unity of human race, and equality of all in the eyes of God, and the fair treatment of the vulnerable in the society, especially the slaves and the women. Brotherhood, justice and equality became a fundamental part of the piety-minded in the historical Muslim societies. Egalitarianism and inclusiveness were the hallmarks of all regions of the Islam through most of history, and remain so amongst the Muslim societies today. One curious phenomenon in the history of the Muslims is the number of kings who were former slaves, as was seen in Egypt and India. Islamic history has many sordid chapters in it, but there is no instance of mass persecution based on color or race. Long before the United Nations charter on equality of humans and the publication of a list of universal human rights, Islam had created a community based on equality and free of racial and class prejudice.

Islam is sometimes criticized for having replaced other forms of bigotry with religious bigotry. This does hold true on scrutiny of the Qur’an and the practice of the Prophet. Islam makes it clear that all of God’s religions are one, and all the prophets are one. Prophet Muhammad (saw) accepted the legitimacy of other religions, and the freedom of men to practice the religion of their choice. In Medina, when he lost hope that the majority of Jews and Christians would accept his mission, he accepted them as valid communities, and the Qur’an demanded that they should live according to the standards of the Torah and the Bible.

In the letters he wrote to the rulers of the neighboring regions inviting them to ponder over the message of Islam, Prophet Muhammad (saw) extended his protection to those communities and their places of worship, even if they chose not to accept his mission. The Qur’an considers the diversity of religions a divine mystery which can be solved only on the Day of Judgment. This acceptance of other traditions and faiths is reflected in the Sufi philosophy that religions are like beads in a rosary, separate yet bound by the same thread. As Ibn Arabi, the great 12th-century Sufi philosopher states in his poem, “The Tarjamanul Ashwaq” ("The Translator of Yearnings"):

"My heart has become capable of absorbing all forms.
It is a pasture for gazelles and a monastery for the monks;
A house that idols the Kaaba for the pilgrim;
The tablet of Torah and the Scripture of the Qur’an;
I adhere to the religion of love in whatever direction its caravan advances.
This true religion of love shall be my religion and my faith."

IssaEl21

05-24-2004, 09:39 AM

I am quite sure that those Muslims that know this do not ignore it...

One of the ways many people know about Islam is through the TV footage of the Hajj. What is remarkable about this ritual is that people of all colors, races, and nationalities come together...and as they approach the Kaaba chant a simple verse; "O Lord! We have come to you."

This unity and uniformity comes directly from the universal concept of Oneness of God (Tauhid). The concept of tauhid in theological sense means God is one; in a mystical and spiritual sense it means Oneness with God, and at the social level it means all humanity is one under God. The Oneness of God; the oneness of life and of humanity is a unique contribution of Islam to human civilization. In the Qur’an mankind is one, under one God who nourishes, sustains, loves and guides.

The fact that humanity comes from one single source is the basic principle of faith and the differences between various nationalities, communities and races are nothing but a sign from Allah (swt). These differences are as much a sign from God as the revelation of the Qur’an itself.

“And it is a sign of Allah that he created the heavens and the earth And He created the diversity of languages and colors.” (Sura 30:22)

The positive value one can draw from this diversity is that it is a source of identity and mutual recognition.

“O Mankind! We created you from one source And then divided you into communities and nations So that you may know each other.” (Sura 49:13)

This diversity is a reason of celebration in the complexity and beauty of nature and not a basis for superiority of one group over another. The Holy Qur’an makes it clear that the only basis for distinction between people is their moral alertness (taqwa). The Qur’an emphasizes the importance of taqwa because it feels it binds people together even more than blood ties. As depicted in the story of Adam’s sons Cain and Abel, and the story of Joseph and his siblings. Without taqwa even brothers can kill and hurt each other. Without the moral vision of taqwa society can’t function properly.

This moral vision of Islam wasn’t confined to the the Qur’an, but was realized in a practical manner in the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw). The Prophet’s mission started in a society which placed a very high value on elitism. Arabs considered themselves superior to non-Arabs, and each tribe amongst the Arabs considered itself superior to others. This distinction - based on tribe and race - was very fundamental to the society in which Prophet Muhammad (saw) brought his mission. It is therefore quite remarkable that he was able to change these long-established beliefs and notions so quickly. Among his early converts were former slaves like the African Bilal the Abyssinian, the very first muezzin (caller to prayer) of the Islamic religion, and the powerful among the Quraish tribe like Omar and Abu Bakr.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was to forge a brotherhood of people of such diverse class, status and background with the moral message of Islam. At least one of the Prophet's wives was African. Her name was Maria the Copt. Two of the Prophet’s wives were Jewish...their names were Raihanah and Safiyah...

“O Muhammad! Even if you had spend the entire wealth of mankind to forge this love, you would not have been able to do so.” (Sura 8:63)

In the special model which Islam created, a former slave would call people for prayer, and Prophet Muhammad (saw) would lead the worship. The prayers were not merely rituals, because the mosque was essentially the center of all social, political and community activities. This equality and brotherhood in the mosque became the norm for relationships and attitudes in the community at large.

If the Prophet appeared to favor one person over the other because of status, the Qur’an immediately corrected him. The Qur’an comments on one incident where the Prophet was busy talking earnestly to a powerful Arab leader hoping to gain his conversion to Islam, and ignored or showed mild displeasure to a poor, blind person who interrupted the conversation:

“The Prophet frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man. And what would make you know that perchance he might grow in piety? Or that he might receive admonition and teaching might profit him?” (Sura 80:1-4)

Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) farewell sermon at the last Hajj he performed is a succinct summary of the major concepts in Islam. There he reinforced the unity of human race, and equality of all in the eyes of God, and the fair treatment of the vulnerable in the society, especially the slaves and the women. Brotherhood, justice and equality became a fundamental part of the piety-minded in the historical Muslim societies. Egalitarianism and inclusiveness were the hallmarks of all regions of the Islam through most of history, and remain so amongst the Muslim societies today. One curious phenomenon in the history of the Muslims is the number of kings who were former slaves, as was seen in Egypt and India. Islamic history has many sordid chapters in it, but there is no instance of mass persecution based on color or race. Long before the United Nations charter on equality of humans and the publication of a list of universal human rights, Islam had created a community based on equality and free of racial and class prejudice.

Islam is sometimes criticized for having replaced other forms of bigotry with religious bigotry. This does hold true on scrutiny of the Qur’an and the practice of the Prophet. Islam makes it clear that all of God’s religions are one, and all the prophets are one. Prophet Muhammad (saw) accepted the legitimacy of other religions, and the freedom of men to practice the religion of their choice. In Medina, when he lost hope that the majority of Jews and Christians would accept his mission, he accepted them as valid communities, and the Qur’an demanded that they should live according to the standards of the Torah and the Bible.

In the letters he wrote to the rulers of the neighboring regions inviting them to ponder over the message of Islam, Prophet Muhammad (saw) extended his protection to those communities and their places of worship, even if they chose not to accept his mission. The Qur’an considers the diversity of religions a divine mystery which can be solved only on the Day of Judgment. This acceptance of other traditions and faiths is reflected in the Sufi philosophy that religions are like beads in a rosary, separate yet bound by the same thread. As Ibn Arabi, the great 12th-century Sufi philosopher states in his poem, “The Tarjamanul Ashwaq” ("The Translator of Yearnings"):

"My heart has become capable of absorbing all forms.
It is a pasture for gazelles and a monastery for the monks;
A house that idols the Kaaba for the pilgrim;
The tablet of Torah and the Scripture of the Qur’an;
I adhere to the religion of love in whatever direction its caravan advances.
This true religion of love shall be my religion and my faith."

Why Do Muslims Ignore That There Are Seven Salat Mentioned In The Quran ?
I Must Say I'm Impress With You Answer , But I Get The Feeeling Your Trying To Say There No Raceism In Islam . And Thats Just Not True . And I Appreciate You Takeing You Time To Answer My Question ;
I Have Another Question If I May ?
Is Islam Another Sect Of Christianity ??
;Why Do Muslims Ignore That There Are Seven Salat Mentioned In The Quran ?
1) Salatul Fajr <> So ( give ) glory to God when yereach eventide and When Ye Rise In The Morning
( The Quran 30 ; 17 ; 17 ; 78 )
2) Salatudh Dhur <> Yea to him be praise , In the heavens and on earth And In The Late Afternoon ( The Quran 30; 18 )
3) Salatul Asr <> Guard strictly your ( habit of ) prayers , Especially The Middle Prayer ( The Quran 2 ; 238 )
4) Salatul Maghrib <> So ( give ) glory to God when Ye reach Eeventide ( The Quran 30 ; 17 )
5) Salatul Ishaa <> And after The Late - Night Prayer ( The Quran 24 ; 58 )
6) Salatul Ishraaq <> Our praises at eventide and at Break Of Day ( TheQuran 38 ; 18 ;.....
7) Salatut Tahajjud <> '' Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline Till TheDarkness Of TheNight ( The Quran 17
What Type Of Image Do Nubians / Blacks Have In Islam ?
WhenEver These Arabs From The East See A Nubians / Blacks Dress Up As A Muslim ; Whether You Are Coverted Or Not , These Same , Socalled Brotherly Loved , United As One , Muslims See You As An American Negro , Trying To Imitate Their ( Arab ) Way Of Life , And Yes I Guarantee You That ! Then Once You Are Deeply Invole In This Islamic Culture , You'll Find Out How They Really Feel About Us . Don't Be Surprised ! For Instance , The Place A Very Disturbing Image Of Us Nubians / Blacks On One Of The Covers Of Their Primary Arabic Reading Book , Called '' The Blacks Who Lives Under The Earth '' <Showing Us , Eating Raw Meat , As If We Are Savages , > We Nubians / Blacks Are Not And Never Were Savages . This Book Was Published In 1983 A.D. And Written In All Arabic Which Is Used In Morocco , For It Was The Nubians , Who Are And Were The Civilizers And Gave The Best Culture To Others . Just Ask Us About Our Ancestor , Abraham . The Chaldean ( Genesis 11 ; 31 ) Who Helped To Civilze People Of The Caucasus Mountains , The Chaldeans Were Known To Be Nubians , With Kingly ( Kinky ) Hair And Had Dark Skin Complexions . HowEver , It Is These Same Muslims Of The East / Arabs , Who Have Our Blood Running Through Them That Discriminate And LQQk Down On Us ; Just Ask The Egyotian Muhammad El Fayed , And His Egyptian / Saudian Son , Dodi Fayed < Dead > Whom The British Media Repeatedly Labeled . Dark , Dusky , And Swarthy ; - A Taste Of Their Own Medicine . Yet It Is It These East Arabs Who Will Always Show Nubians As Servants , Dancers . Singers ; As If That Is The Only Things , We Can Do Well . You Will Hear Bilal's Name Mentioned , Singing Or Chanting The Azaan , But They Won't Tell You He And His Descendants Were The Founder Of Cities And Centers Of Education , And Culture In Syria And Morocco . Bilal . Was One Of The Most Beloved Out Of Muhammad's So - Called Companions Beside Ali , Whom Abu Bakr . LQQked Down On And Treated As A Slave ; And Ironically . It Was He Who Brought Bilal And Free Him From The Red Arabs , Ummayya Ibn Khalaf , So Abu Bakr Help Slaves And LQQked Down On Dark - Slinned Arabs As Well
Hadith # 205
Umayya B . Khalaf B . Wahb . , Hudhafa B. Jumah Used To Bring Him Out At The Hottest Part Of The Day And Throw Him On His Back In The Open Valley And Have A Great Rock Put On His Chest ; Then He Would Say To Him ; '' You Will Stay Here Till You Die Or Deny Muhammad And Worship At - Lat And Al - Uzza . He Used To Say While He Was Enduring This '' One , One ! '' Hisham B . ' Urwa Told Me On The Authority Of His Father ; Waraqa B . Naufal Was Passing Him While He Was Being Thus Tortured AndSaying ; One , And He Said ; '' One , By Allah , Bilaal . Then He Went To Umayya And Those Of B, Jumah Who Had Thus Maltreated Him And Said '' I Swear By Allah That If You Kill Him In This Way I Will Make His Tomb A Shrine . '' One Day Abu Bakr Passed By , While They Were Thus Ill - Treating Him , For His House Was Among This Clan . He Said To Ummayya . '' Have You No Fear Of Allah That You Treat This Poor Fellow Like This ? How Long Is It To Go On ? He Replied '' You Are The One Who Corrupted Him , So Save Him From His Plight That You See '' I Will Do . '' Said Abu Bakr '' I Have God A Black Slave . Tougher And Stronger Then He , Who Is A Heathen . I Will Exchange Him For Bilaal . '' The Transaction . Was Carried Out And Abu Bakr Took Him And Freed Him .
Even Bilaal Must Have Felt Abu Bakr Treated Him As A Slave And Took Advantage Of Him For Him To Say This ; And I QuoteFrom A Hadiyth By Bukhari ; Qais B . Abu Hazim Told That Bilaal Said To Abu Bakr , '' If You Bought Me For Your Sake , Keep Me , But If You Bought Me Only For Allah's Sake , Let Me Go And Undertake Allah's Work ''
And Then Again In Another Bakhari Hadith It Says '' ''' Bilaal B . Rabah Client Of Abu Bakr As Siddiq Is Listed In The Name Of Those Present At The Battle Of Badr ''
So That Will Make Abu Bakr As Bad As Anyone Who Held Slaves, Including The Prophet Muhammad Who Had Slave As Well , Like Maryam The Copt And That Is After Islam Supposedly Liberated Slave . Why ..
Araaka - Fiy - Maa - Ba'd - In - Shaa - A - Allah

IssaEl21

05-24-2004, 09:45 AM

I am quite sure that those Muslims that know this do not ignore it...

One of the ways many people know about Islam is through the TV footage of the Hajj. What is remarkable about this ritual is that people of all colors, races, and nationalities come together...and as they approach the Kaaba chant a simple verse; "O Lord! We have come to you."

This unity and uniformity comes directly from the universal concept of Oneness of God (Tauhid). The concept of tauhid in theological sense means God is one; in a mystical and spiritual sense it means Oneness with God, and at the social level it means all humanity is one under God. The Oneness of God; the oneness of life and of humanity is a unique contribution of Islam to human civilization. In the Qur’an mankind is one, under one God who nourishes, sustains, loves and guides.

The fact that humanity comes from one single source is the basic principle of faith and the differences between various nationalities, communities and races are nothing but a sign from Allah (swt). These differences are as much a sign from God as the revelation of the Qur’an itself.

“And it is a sign of Allah that he created the heavens and the earth And He created the diversity of languages and colors.” (Sura 30:22)

The positive value one can draw from this diversity is that it is a source of identity and mutual recognition.

“O Mankind! We created you from one source And then divided you into communities and nations So that you may know each other.” (Sura 49:13)

This diversity is a reason of celebration in the complexity and beauty of nature and not a basis for superiority of one group over another. The Holy Qur’an makes it clear that the only basis for distinction between people is their moral alertness (taqwa). The Qur’an emphasizes the importance of taqwa because it feels it binds people together even more than blood ties. As depicted in the story of Adam’s sons Cain and Abel, and the story of Joseph and his siblings. Without taqwa even brothers can kill and hurt each other. Without the moral vision of taqwa society can’t function properly.

This moral vision of Islam wasn’t confined to the the Qur’an, but was realized in a practical manner in the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw). The Prophet’s mission started in a society which placed a very high value on elitism. Arabs considered themselves superior to non-Arabs, and each tribe amongst the Arabs considered itself superior to others. This distinction - based on tribe and race - was very fundamental to the society in which Prophet Muhammad (saw) brought his mission. It is therefore quite remarkable that he was able to change these long-established beliefs and notions so quickly. Among his early converts were former slaves like the African Bilal the Abyssinian, the very first muezzin (caller to prayer) of the Islamic religion, and the powerful among the Quraish tribe like Omar and Abu Bakr.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was to forge a brotherhood of people of such diverse class, status and background with the moral message of Islam. At least one of the Prophet's wives was African. Her name was Maria the Copt. Two of the Prophet’s wives were Jewish...their names were Raihanah and Safiyah...

“O Muhammad! Even if you had spend the entire wealth of mankind to forge this love, you would not have been able to do so.” (Sura 8:63)

In the special model which Islam created, a former slave would call people for prayer, and Prophet Muhammad (saw) would lead the worship. The prayers were not merely rituals, because the mosque was essentially the center of all social, political and community activities. This equality and brotherhood in the mosque became the norm for relationships and attitudes in the community at large.

If the Prophet appeared to favor one person over the other because of status, the Qur’an immediately corrected him. The Qur’an comments on one incident where the Prophet was busy talking earnestly to a powerful Arab leader hoping to gain his conversion to Islam, and ignored or showed mild displeasure to a poor, blind person who interrupted the conversation:

“The Prophet frowned and turned away because there came to him the blind man. And what would make you know that perchance he might grow in piety? Or that he might receive admonition and teaching might profit him?” (Sura 80:1-4)

Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) farewell sermon at the last Hajj he performed is a succinct summary of the major concepts in Islam. There he reinforced the unity of human race, and equality of all in the eyes of God, and the fair treatment of the vulnerable in the society, especially the slaves and the women. Brotherhood, justice and equality became a fundamental part of the piety-minded in the historical Muslim societies. Egalitarianism and inclusiveness were the hallmarks of all regions of the Islam through most of history, and remain so amongst the Muslim societies today. One curious phenomenon in the history of the Muslims is the number of kings who were former slaves, as was seen in Egypt and India. Islamic history has many sordid chapters in it, but there is no instance of mass persecution based on color or race. Long before the United Nations charter on equality of humans and the publication of a list of universal human rights, Islam had created a community based on equality and free of racial and class prejudice.

Islam is sometimes criticized for having replaced other forms of bigotry with religious bigotry. This does hold true on scrutiny of the Qur’an and the practice of the Prophet. Islam makes it clear that all of God’s religions are one, and all the prophets are one. Prophet Muhammad (saw) accepted the legitimacy of other religions, and the freedom of men to practice the religion of their choice. In Medina, when he lost hope that the majority of Jews and Christians would accept his mission, he accepted them as valid communities, and the Qur’an demanded that they should live according to the standards of the Torah and the Bible.

In the letters he wrote to the rulers of the neighboring regions inviting them to ponder over the message of Islam, Prophet Muhammad (saw) extended his protection to those communities and their places of worship, even if they chose not to accept his mission. The Qur’an considers the diversity of religions a divine mystery which can be solved only on the Day of Judgment. This acceptance of other traditions and faiths is reflected in the Sufi philosophy that religions are like beads in a rosary, separate yet bound by the same thread. As Ibn Arabi, the great 12th-century Sufi philosopher states in his poem, “The Tarjamanul Ashwaq” ("The Translator of Yearnings"):

"My heart has become capable of absorbing all forms.
It is a pasture for gazelles and a monastery for the monks;
A house that idols the Kaaba for the pilgrim;
The tablet of Torah and the Scripture of the Qur’an;
I adhere to the religion of love in whatever direction its caravan advances.
This true religion of love shall be my religion and my faith."

I Must Say I'm Impress With You Answer , But I Get The Feeeling Your Trying To Say There No Raceism In Islam . And Thats Just Not True . And I Appreciate You Takeing You Time To Answer My Question ;
I Have Another Question If I May ?
Is Islam Another Sect Of Christianity ??
;Why Do Muslims Ignore That There Are Seven Salat Mentioned In The Quran ?
1) Salatul Fajr <> So ( give ) glory to God when yereach eventide and When Ye Rise In The Morning
( The Quran 30 ; 17 ; 17 ; 78 )
2) Salatudh Dhur <> Yea to him be praise , In the heavens and on earth And In The Late Afternoon ( The Quran 30; 18 )
3) Salatul Asr <> Guard strictly your ( habit of ) prayers , Especially The Middle Prayer ( The Quran 2 ; 238 )
4) Salatul Maghrib <> So ( give ) glory to God when Ye reach Eeventide ( The Quran 30 ; 17 )
5) Salatul Ishaa <> And after The Late - Night Prayer ( The Quran 24 ; 58 )
6) Salatul Ishraaq <> Our praises at eventide and at Break Of Day ( TheQuran 38 ; 18 ;.....
7) Salatut Tahajjud <> '' Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline Till TheDarkness Of TheNight ( The Quran 17
What Type Of Image Do Nubians / Blacks Have In Islam ?
WhenEver These Arabs From The East See A Nubians / Blacks Dress Up As A Muslim ; Whether You Are Coverted Or Not , These Same , Socalled Brotherly Loved , United As One , Muslims See You As An American Negro , Trying To Imitate Their ( Arab ) Way Of Life , And Yes I Guarantee You That ! Then Once You Are Deeply Invole In This Islamic Culture , You'll Find Out How They Really Feel About Us . Don't Be Surprised ! For Instance , The Place A Very Disturbing Image Of Us Nubians / Blacks On One Of The Covers Of Their Primary Arabic Reading Book , Called '' The Blacks Who Lives Under The Earth '' <Showing Us , Eating Raw Meat , As If We Are Savages , > We Nubians / Blacks Are Not And Never Were Savages . This Book Was Published In 1983 A.D. And Written In All Arabic Which Is Used In Morocco , For It Was The Nubians , Who Are And Were The Civilizers And Gave The Best Culture To Others . Just Ask Us About Our Ancestor , Abraham . The Chaldean ( Genesis 11 ; 31 ) Who Helped To Civilze People Of The Caucasus Mountains , The Chaldeans Were Known To Be Nubians , With Kingly ( Kinky ) Hair And Had Dark Skin Complexions . HowEver , It Is These Same Muslims Of The East / Arabs , Who Have Our Blood Running Through Them That Discriminate And LQQk Down On Us ; Just Ask The Egyotian Muhammad El Fayed , And His Egyptian / Saudian Son , Dodi Fayed < Dead > Whom The British Media Repeatedly Labeled . Dark , Dusky , And Swarthy ; - A Taste Of Their Own Medicine . Yet It Is It These East Arabs Who Will Always Show Nubians As Servants , Dancers . Singers ; As If That Is The Only Things , We Can Do Well . You Will Hear Bilal's Name Mentioned , Singing Or Chanting The Azaan , But They Won't Tell You He And His Descendants Were The Founder Of Cities And Centers Of Education , And Culture In Syria And Morocco . Bilal . Was One Of The Most Beloved Out Of Muhammad's So - Called Companions Beside Ali , Whom Abu Bakr . LQQked Down On And Treated As A Slave ; And Ironically . It Was He Who Brought Bilal And Free Him From The Red Arabs , Ummayya Ibn Khalaf , So Abu Bakr Help Slaves And LQQked Down On Dark - Slinned Arabs As Well
Hadith # 205
Umayya B . Khalaf B . Wahb . , Hudhafa B. Jumah Used To Bring Him Out At The Hottest Part Of The Day And Throw Him On His Back In The Open Valley And Have A Great Rock Put On His Chest ; Then He Would Say To Him ; '' You Will Stay Here Till You Die Or Deny Muhammad And Worship At - Lat And Al - Uzza . He Used To Say While He Was Enduring This '' One , One ! '' Hisham B . ' Urwa Told Me On The Authority Of His Father ; Waraqa B . Naufal Was Passing Him While He Was Being Thus Tortured AndSaying ; One , And He Said ; '' One , By Allah , Bilaal . Then He Went To Umayya And Those Of B, Jumah Who Had Thus Maltreated Him And Said '' I Swear By Allah That If You Kill Him In This Way I Will Make His Tomb A Shrine . '' One Day Abu Bakr Passed By , While They Were Thus Ill - Treating Him , For His House Was Among This Clan . He Said To Ummayya . '' Have You No Fear Of Allah That You Treat This Poor Fellow Like This ? How Long Is It To Go On ? He Replied '' You Are The One Who Corrupted Him , So Save Him From His Plight That You See '' I Will Do . '' Said Abu Bakr '' I Have God A Black Slave . Tougher And Stronger Then He , Who Is A Heathen . I Will Exchange Him For Bilaal . '' The Transaction . Was Carried Out And Abu Bakr Took Him And Freed Him .
Even Bilaal Must Have Felt Abu Bakr Treated Him As A Slave And Took Advantage Of Him For Him To Say This ; And I QuoteFrom A Hadiyth By Bukhari ; Qais B . Abu Hazim Told That Bilaal Said To Abu Bakr , '' If You Bought Me For Your Sake , Keep Me , But If You Bought Me Only For Allah's Sake , Let Me Go And Undertake Allah's Work ''
And Then Again In Another Bakhari Hadith It Says '' ''' Bilaal B . Rabah Client Of Abu Bakr As Siddiq Is Listed In The Name Of Those Present At The Battle Of Badr ''
So That Will Make Abu Bakr As Bad As Anyone Who Held Slaves, Including The Prophet Muhammad Who Had Slave As Well , Like Maryam The Copt And That Is After Islam Supposedly Liberated Slave . Why ..

MANASIAC

05-24-2004, 11:22 AM

Aqil

05-24-2004, 12:37 PM

Re: Racism and Islam

"Say: We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael; Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them; and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)." (Holy Qur'an 3:84)

"Let there be no compulsion in matters of religion." (Holy Qur'an 2:256)

"Verily, those who believe (in the Qur'an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Holy Qur'an 2:62)

Re: Racism Towards Other Races

"The Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca was an exhilarating experience to see people belonging to different colors, races and nationalities - kings, heads of states and ordinary men from very poor countries - all clad in two simple white sheets praying to God without any sense of either pride or inferiority. It was a practical manifestation of the concept of equality in Islam."
(Muhammad Ali)

"The Europeans in South Africa dread the advent of Islam, as the (Muslims) claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it. If brotherhood is a sin; if it is equality of the colored races that they dread, then their dread is well-founded."
(Mahatma K. Ghandi)

"I have been struck over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian, an Indian and a Turk in London, what matters is that Egypt is the Motherland of one and India is the Motherland of another." (Sarojini Naidu)

"Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and the overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practised by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad, and all the other prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors." (Malcolm X)

"Allah is to be praised and thanked for ridding us of the vices and pride of the days of ignorance. O People! Note that all men (the noun includes women as well) are divided in two categories only: the pious and God-fearing who are esteemable in Allah's reckoning, and the transgressors and hard-hearted, who are lowly and contemptible in the eye of Allah." [Prophet Muhammad (saw)]

"O Mankind! Most certainly, it is We (God almighty) who have Created you all from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and it is we who has made you into Nations and tribes, that ye may recognize each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous of you." (Holy Qur'an 49:13)

"And mankind is naught but a single nation." (Holy Qur'an 2:213)

"And among His Signs is the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors; verily in that are signs for those who know." (Holy Qur'an 30:22)

"All men (the noun includes women) are equal in Islam, the Arab has no superiority over the non-Arab, nor does the non-Arab have superiority over the Arab, save in the fear of God." [Prophet Muhammad (saw)]

"The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue." (Professor A.J. Toynbee)

"I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of the Qur'an, which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness." (Napoleon Bonaparte)

Islam is not a racist religion, nor does it preach racism. The people of other faiths have always enjoyed religious toleration under Islam; when the Jews were being persecuted in the rest of Europe, they found freedom and sanctity in Muslim Spain. Their historians regard that as one of their "Golden Eras." In Muslim countries today, Christians are permitted to practice their faith as freely as any country, and inter-cultural marriages are common in Islam...

Ma Salaam.

Joyce

05-24-2004, 12:56 PM

I personally think the only difference between them is that Orthodox Islam generates more money than the Nation of Islam. However both of them combined cannot effect the revenue generating power of Christianity.

I pondered this for a minute and thought...I have to disagree with you on this one. While Christianity is one of the powerful influential forces on the earth, it has no where near the "revenue generating" power that Islam has. It's hard to explain, but most Christian pastors and ministries have to literally beg most their people for money every year...while most of the billions for Islam come from wealthy business men and a bottomless pit of oil revenue. Moreover, their leaders do not have to "plead" with their followers for support, they willingly give it. Many people don't know it but Islam (not Christianity) is the fastest growing religion on the planet and it doesn't seem to be slowing down a bit. To be in a position like this, it takes money and lots of it. Campaigning for election for president cost millions for that short period of time, but one can only imagine the funds required to campaign for your faith 24/7 year after year. Money is not a bad thing...it's a powerful thing. And when handled right an abundance of good can come from it. :spinn:

~j

MANASIAC

05-24-2004, 02:25 PM

Joyce

05-24-2004, 02:56 PM

I understand all of that. But I still think Christianity generate more revenue. I know it is the fastest growing religion on the planet but it is growinng in alot of places in the East not really in the west. The Catholic Church is Powerful and they are the reasons why Christanity is more powerful than Islam I think.

Surpriseeeeee :huh: That is what the average person thinks. Not many know that the fastest growing religion in AMERCIA is NOT Christianity but Islam. That's because Islam is more diverse than it has ever been in it's entire history. Thus, Islam is poised for world domination...fact.
http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story5_3_03.html

IssaEl21

05-28-2004, 04:27 PM

IssaEl21

05-31-2004, 02:17 PM

Why Do Muslims Preserve Artifacts Of TheProphet Muhammad Like The Christian Do With Jesus Christ ?
Araaka - Fiy - Maa - Ba'd In - Shaa - A - Allah
Issa

I Don't Agree With All The Teaching Of N.O.I. But Under The Leadership Of The Messenger Elijah Muhammad , The Messenger Built A Strong Nation As You Well Know And He Taught The Nubians Brother & Sister Do ForSelf . And They Never Ask The Muslims Of The East To Pay There Rent . Who LQQK At Muslims Here In The West Has Slaves . You Never Hear The Muslims Of East Speak Out Against The Injustus, Of The Muslims And Non-muslims Here In The West , But You Will Hear These Silly Sunnie Muslims , Speak Against There Brother Muslims . I Though If You Bear Witness To Allah You Were Muslim . You Will Have Some Silly Sunni Muslims Say The N.O.I Are Not Muslims Because Of There Dress & And There Teaching . You Sound Like Bilal Philips & Jeffrey Kearse / Siraj Wahhaj . The PitBulls For The Pale Muslims Of The East . Remember When You Speak Out Aganist Another Muslims Teaching You Leave Yourself Open To Be Question Also . OverStand : :geek: :toast:

IssaEl21

05-31-2004, 05:56 PM

Aqil

06-27-2005, 08:29 AM

Question for Orthodox Sunni Muslims: Did Allah tell Muslims to kiss the Black Stone anywhere in His Qur'an?No. The Black Stone is not mentioned in the Qur’an.

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=5016

(This is an excellent Islamic website, Sister Akilah.)

Akilah

06-29-2005, 03:58 AM

Thank you Brotha Aqil !

Many thanks :flowers:

Aqil

06-29-2005, 08:24 AM

You're quite welcome, my sister...

IssaEl21

06-29-2005, 09:44 AM

You're quite welcome, my sister...

First I Like To Say The Messenger Elijah Muhammad Was One Of The Greatest Teacher Of Muslims Here In The West , And He Have Done More For His People Here In The West Then Any Muslim Here And The Muslim Of The East .
Aqil I Have A Few Question For You If I May Ok .
What Type Of Image Does Nubian Have In Islam ?

Aqil

06-29-2005, 08:08 PM

Salaam, aqi. This website will answer all your queries re: Islam in Nubia...

http://ron.heavengames.com/gameinfo/nations/nubia/nubia.shtml

IssaEl21

06-30-2005, 01:20 AM

Salaam, aqi. This website will answer all your queries re: Islam in Nubia...

http://ron.heavengames.com/gameinfo/nations/nubia/nubia.shtml

I Don't Accept Those Website Links You And I Bost Know They Are NothinG But Hadiyth Writer Words Of Men Not Of Allah . Being You Like To Talk About The NOI .. Why Can't We Discuss Sunnis-ism We Both Want To Put The Truth Out Yes

Aqil

07-01-2005, 10:26 AM

I don't accept those website links. You and I both know they are nothing but hadith writing words of men, not of Allah...The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider ahadith to be essential supplements to - and clarifications of - the Holy Qur'an.

Being that you like to talk about the NOI...This is not true, Issa. My thread was taken from a book written by Imam Mustafa El-Amin of Newark, NJ, titled, The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference? Here is the website:

http://home.earthlink.net/~hanan/el-amin.htm

Why can't we discuss Sunniism?We can...however, you asked about Islam in Nubia...

IssaEl21

07-01-2005, 12:41 PM

The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider ahadith to be essential supplements to - and clarifications of - the Holy Qur'an.

This is not true, Issa. My thread was taken from a book written by Imam Mustafa El-Amin of Newark, NJ, titled, The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference? Here is the website:

http://home.earthlink.net/~hanan/el-amin.htm

We can...however, you asked about Islam in Nubia...

I Hear Of That Guy Before And I Know Most Muslim Here In The West Don't See The N.O.I. As Muslims . But They Will Accept The So-Call Muslims Of The East As Muslims & Brother's . When The True Of The Matter They Are Not The True Muslims They Are Convert . I'm Not Saying I Agree With The N.O.I Teaching And I Know It Very Well Believe Me . It's About What Messenger Elijah Muhammad Did For The Nubian's Brother's & Sister"s Here In The West .

SAMURAI36

07-01-2005, 01:06 PM

SALAAM AQIL:

The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider ahadith to be essential supplements to - and clarifications of - the Holy Qur'an.

I'm purposefully choosing to remain silent in this thread, but I do wish to comment on this one statement.

Just because the amount ("overwhelming" or otherwise) of people accept a notion, does not begin to speak about its accuracy.

The issue with the HADITH has always been that it not only many times contradicts the QUR'AN, but also often contradicts itself.

Not to mention that the HADITH backfires on itself, by portraying PROPHET MUHAMMAD as a misogynist, racist, pagan and otherwise generally unintelligent.

In fact, in reading the QUR'AN, and the knowledge contained therein about a great many subjects, those same subjects addressed in the HADITH are contradicted to the point of not only being embarrassing, but also leading the reader to believe that both mediums cannot possibly be from the same source.

Does the Prophet really want us to Drink urine, beat female slaves, call blacks "raisin heads", and other deplorable acts? (all from SAHIH BUKHARI)

How does he break down the process of procreation in the QUR'AN, yet tell us in the HADITH that "if the woman's semen is yellow, then the child will be a girl, and if it is white, then it will be a boy (SAHIH BUKHARI)???????

Since when do women have "SEMEN"???

This is just a common sense issue here..........Especially when each and every single HADITH entry begins with:

"AHMAD heard ABDUL, who heard TARIQ say that he heard HAKIM say that he heard ALI say that he heard the Prophet say........."

This is to be taken as right and exact in your mind's eye?

In today's times, such writings would be known as HEAR-SAY, or "he said-she said".

Yet, we once again set aside our mental prowess (or rather, have it stripped away from us), in favor of BELIEF. :thinking:

At least the NOI does not subscribe to hear-say as the focal point of their belief.

MA'SALAAM

Aqil

07-01-2005, 03:16 PM

Salaam aqi.

Does the Prophet really want us to drink urine, beat female slaves, call blacks "raisin heads", and other deplorable acts? (all from SAHIH BUKHARI)Of course not. Can you direct me to the particular ahadith by Sahih Bukhari?

How does he break down the process of procreation in the QUR'AN, yet tell us in the HADITH that "if the woman's semen is yellow, then the child will be a girl, and if it is white, then it will be a boy (SAHIH BUKHARI)???????

Since when do women have "SEMEN"???First of all the Qur'an implies that semen production takes place in the kidney or back area:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" Sura 86:5-7.

According to Ibn Kathir, the first Muslims understood this verse to be referring to the sexual fluid provided by both the man and the woman in producing a child. This implies that the first Muslims believed that women contributed actual sperm necessary in determining the characteristics of a child. The ahadith provide additional proof that both Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his followers did in fact assume that a child's characteristics, along with its gender, was the direct result of the sperm contributed by both the male and the female. The Prophet declared:

"As for the resemblance of the child to its parents; if a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets a discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets her discharge first, the child will resemble her." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, #546)

That Prophet Muhammad (saw) is speaking of actual female sperm becomes clear from this excerpt from Salih Muslim:

"...He (the Jew) said: I have come to ask you about a thing which no one amongst the people on the earth knows except an apostle or one or two men besides him. The Holy Prophet said: 'Would it benefit you if I tell you that?' He (the Jew) said: 'I would lend ears to that.' He then said: 'I have come to ask you about the child.' The Holy Prophet then said: 'The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance prevails upon the female's substance, it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah...' (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, #0614)

Another hadith says,

"If a male's fluid prevails upon the female's substance, the child will be a male by Allah's decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed."

Surely this is not referring to dominant and recessive genes at all, as certain Muslims have claimed, but is simply repeating the incorrect belief of Hippocrates that both men and women produce both male and female sperm. The sex of the resulting child is determined by which sperm overwhelms the other in strength or quantity:
"...both partners alike contain both male and female sperm (the male being stronger than the female must originate from a stronger sperm). Here is a further point: if (a) both partners produce a stronger sperm then a male is the result, whereas if (b) they produce a weak form, then a female is the result. But if (c) one partner produces one kind of sperm, and the other produces another, then the resultant sex is determined by whichever sperm prevails in quantity. For suppose that the weak sperm is much greater in quantity than the stronger sperm: then the stronger sperm is overwhelmed and, being mixed with weak, results in a female. If, on the contrary, the strong sperm is greater in quantity than the weak, and the weak is overwhelmed, it results in a male."

As aforementioned in the hadith, Prophet Muhammad (saw) says that the reproductive substance of men is white and that of women is yellow. This sounds very much like the content - yellow and white - that is found inside developing chicken eggs, which Aristotle was known to dissect...:)

SAMURAI36

07-01-2005, 04:42 PM

Salaam aqi.

Of course not. Can you direct me to the particular ahadith by Sahih Bukhari?

But of course:

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 590:
Narrated Anas: The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.

This issue has continued to plague ORTHODOX MUSLIMS for decades.

In this link, we can see an Orthodox Muslim making a complete fool of himself, trying hopelessly to argue a point that he doesn't even have:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/hadith.htm

D) THE MUSLIM DILEMMA

The reason that we went to such lengths to prove the highest religious authorities of Islam view the Hadith as being inspired and authoritative is that many Muslims will deny this when confronted with some of the obviously absurd teachings of Muhammad.

In one radio program, one Muslim caller argued in a circle as follows:

'Muhammad was Allah's prophet. Therefore he could not have said something so stupid as to suggest that we should drink camel urine. Thus you are a liar, Dr. Morey. The Hadith cannot say this.'

After I went on to prove from the Hadith that Muhammad did indeed recommend camel urine, he responded:

'We Muslims only recognize the Holy Quran as God's Book. We do not accept the Hadith as inspired.'

Of course, he had to deny the inspiration of the Hadith in order to avoid having to defend Muhammad on the drinking of urine.

We understand the dilemma of modern Muslims. While they desperately want to maintain that Muhammad was Allah's apostle, yet the Hadith clearly reveals that Muhammad could not be inspired because he taught many things which are not only patently wrong but absurd.

There are mentionings of this all over the internet. This, in addition to the current world events, has made ISLAM the laughing stock of the religious world.

Regarding the position of Blacks in the HADITH, The Hadith calls Muhammad was a white man, so Black Muslims serve the one they speak against. Meanwhile, the Hadith calls black people "raisin heads" (vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256) and refers to them as slaves. If someone dreamed of a black woman, she was an evil omen of disease (vol. 9, nos. 162, 163). Muhammad had black slaves (vol. 6, no. 435).

There are numerous other fallacies that the HADITH purports:

*One of the major sins is not to protect oneself from urine. If you pee on yourself you go to hell, yet Muhammad ordered people to drink camel's milk and urine!

*You must not face Mecca when you are defecating. You must not use your right hand to hold or wipe yourself. You must wash your private parts after going to the bathroom.

*Satan stays in the upper part of the nose all night (vol. 4, no. 516)

*Muhammad would spit so followers could smear it on their faces.

*Bad breath, having gas, and yawning are sins when done in Muhammad's presence--I don't think Allah was offended, I think it was Muhammad.

*Muhammad was superstitious and was afraid that evil spirits might enter his body while urinating or defecating. He was also afraid of a strong wind, and kissed and adored black stone in the Kabah. Muhammad thought that placing a green palm leaf on grave of the dead would lesson their pain as they died, and said clean your private parts with an odd number of stones. Believed that Jews were transformed into rats (vol. 4, nos. 524, 569 and chap. 32) and magic.

*Muhammad supposedly had the sexual strength of 30 men.

*There are no recorded miracles of Muhammad in the Quran but when followers saw Muhammad's inferiority to Jesus they started making some up in the Hadith: Muhammad cut the moon in half with a sword, a palm tree cried like a baby because Muhammad wouldn't preach under it, Muhammad made water flow out of his fingernails so that people could drink--the Hadith contradicts itself on how many supposedly people drank it. These "miracles" go on and on.

*Anyone who leaves Islam must be killed (vol. 4, no. 260).

*Women are deficient in intelligence and religion.

*Majority of people in hell are women (vol. 1, nos. 28, 301; vol. 2, no. 161)

*Child looks like the parent that had "discharge first" during intercourse.

*Stars created by Allah to throw at devils as missles.

*Spirits eat dung and bones.

*The earth is flat, and the sun and the earth revolve around each other.

And many other such absurdities.

The insuing conundrum, lies within the fact that if the HADITH is false, then Muslims have been grossly decieved; if the HADITH is truth, and does indeed reflect the words and ideas of MUHAMMAD himself, then Muslim world is REALLY in trouble, for placing their unquestioning belief in the ideas of a mad man.

Personally, I lean towards the former, since the nature of the HADITH and how it is written is questionable from beginning to end (I mentioned this in my previous post).

First of all the Qur'an implies that semen production takes place in the kidney or back area:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" Sura 86:5-7.

If the QUR'AN actually made such an implication, any believer in such an idea needs a swift kick in the pants.

Luckily though, the verse you supplied does not make such a claim.

It has been long theorized that much of the fluidic regulation of the human body--especially mucous, and sexual fluids, comes from the SPINAL CORD. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the kidneys, as the kidneys play absolutely no sexual or procreational function in neither males nor females.

Take notice also to the fact that many scholars argue that the verse you sited has been mistranslated. Many contend that "Between the backbone and ribs" should be "between the lions and pelvis", which certainly fits quite well with basic human anatomy, with regards to sexuality.

According to Ibn Kathir, the first Muslims understood this verse to be referring to the sexual fluid provided by both the man and the woman in producing a child. This implies that the first Muslims believed that women contributed actual sperm necessary in determining the characteristics of a child. The ahadith provide additional proof that both Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his followers did in fact assume that a child's characteristics, along with its gender, was the direct result of the sperm contributed by both the male and the female. The Prophet declared:

"As for the resemblance of the child to its parents; if a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets a discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets her discharge first, the child will resemble her." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, #546)

That Prophet Muhammad (saw) is speaking of actual female sperm becomes clear from this excerpt from Salih Muslim:

"...He (the Jew) said: I have come to ask you about a thing which no one amongst the people on the earth knows except an apostle or one or two men besides him. The Holy Prophet said: 'Would it benefit you if I tell you that?' He (the Jew) said: 'I would lend ears to that.' He then said: 'I have come to ask you about the child.' The Holy Prophet then said: 'The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance prevails upon the female's substance, it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah...' (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, #0614)

Another hadith says,

"If a male's fluid prevails upon the female's substance, the child will be a male by Allah's decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed."

Surely this is not referring to dominant and recessive genes at all, as certain Muslims have claimed, but is simply repeating the incorrect belief of Hippocrates that both men and women produce both male and female sperm. The sex of the resulting child is determined by which sperm overwhelms the other in strength or quantity:
"...both partners alike contain both male and female sperm (the male being stronger than the female must originate from a stronger sperm). Here is a further point: if (a) both partners produce a stronger sperm then a male is the result, whereas if (b) they produce a weak form, then a female is the result. But if (c) one partner produces one kind of sperm, and the other produces another, then the resultant sex is determined by whichever sperm prevails in quantity. For suppose that the weak sperm is much greater in quantity than the stronger sperm: then the stronger sperm is overwhelmed and, being mixed with weak, results in a female. If, on the contrary, the strong sperm is greater in quantity than the weak, and the weak is overwhelmed, it results in a male."

As aforementioned in the hadith, Prophet Muhammad (saw) says that the reproductive substance of men is white and that of women is yellow. This sounds very much like the content - yellow and white - that is found inside developing chicken eggs, which Aristotle was known to dissect...

And you do not see this as the absolute epitome of non-sense? Aside form lubrication, what procreational use does that woman's vaginal fluid serve?

And sense when did it come to be called "SPERM"?

SPERM (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861711580/spermatozoon.html)

SPERM has absolutely nothing to do with the female aspect of reproduction.

For Orthodox Muslims to sit there and try to explain this non-sense is tantamount to lunacy.

Such archaic ideas from Islamic Orthodoxy only serve to keep that aspect of humanity in the dark ages; intellectually stymied by superstition (FEAR).

Prior to buying into the Abrahamic legacy, the Acient Arabians (Himyarians, Sabeans, Yememis, etc) were scientists of the highest order; astronomers, geologists, horticulturalists, etc.

How the mighty have fallen, all for the sake of religion :(

MA'SALAAM

IssaEl21

07-01-2005, 04:55 PM

Hadiyth - -- Hadiyth come from the word Hadatha meaning '' Existence Began To Be Had A Newly For The First Time '' Its plural Ahaadiyth . Ahaadiyth are supposedly records of actions , Utterance and customs of The Prophet Muhammad ; Any action done in his presence and the presence of his companions . As the Koran didn't give detains on certain practical matters . The faithful , The follower of Muhammad ,

Relied on the example of Muhammad thus when confronted with A situation in which A certain decision was necessary . Men would relate what The Prophet Muhammad did in the same or similar case . The most reliable Narrator's account would be accepted . As time went on . Many such Narrations were Collected and Written down by several writers . Hence . Forthforming Patterns For Future Generations .

However , Unscruputous Men , Seeking To Advance Their Own Ideas And Cause Disunity In The Communities . Also Produced Their Own Versions Of Hadiyth . If became necessary to record the Ahaadiyth according to the Reliability Of Both The Narrator And The Transmitter . The Authenticity Of Transmission Because As Entirely Separate Sunject And Even In This , There Were Still Many Disagreement . In All The Hadiyth has ---

Cause Much Sectism In Islaam ; And The Koran Itself Even States , ''' Not To Form Into Sects , ( Koran 6;159 ) The Koran Is The Best Hadiyth ( Koran 4;87 ) .

Aqil

07-01-2005, 07:26 PM

In this link, we can see an Orthodox Muslim making a complete fool of himself, trying hopelessly to argue a point that he doesn't even have:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/hadith.htm Salaam aqi. This link is a Christian website...and most of what you quoted comes from Robert Morey, a Christian theologian. He is considered a heretic by Islamic scholars. Check out this website:

http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/articledetails.php?artid=181

Ma Salaam.

SAMURAI36

07-05-2005, 09:56 AM

Salaam aqi. This link is a Christian website...and most of what you quoted comes from Robert Morey, a Christian theologian. He is considered a heretic by Islamic scholars. Check out this website:

http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/articledetails.php?artid=181

Ma Salaam.

SALAAM AQIL:

I very much took note to that fact, at my time of citing this link, and it's info.

However, the issue remains, that it is not the site that is in the question of validity, but rather the information contained thereon.

Are these not quotes from the HADITH? If they are, then it matters little where who brought them to our attention.

These so-called "ISLAMIC SCHOLARS" (most of which I hold in very little esteem) are notorious for performing the "ANAKIN SKYWALKER" move when confronted with their own issues; they point the finger at everyone else, never once looking at the faults that they have.

Moreover, these so-called "scholars" toss around such labels as "heretic" casually at any and EVERY one whose perspective does not match theirs, and especially those that challenge theirs.

And thus, such a term as "heretic" becomes not only subjective, but also utterly worthless in this (and most other) scenario(s)--only serving to lead us away from the subject at hand.

Speaking of which, returning to the subject at hand......

We are still faced with a very grave spiritual dilemma; what kind of Prophet would tell his faithful believers to drink PISS?

And what kind of "faithful believers" would follow the uncertified gossip of questionable men, with questionable (and often contradictory) ideas?

As the Kemetians used to say: "The blindest Eye, is that which sees All but itself."

MA'SALAAM

Aqil

07-05-2005, 10:57 AM

We are still faced with a very grave spiritual dilemma; what kind of Prophet would tell his faithful believers to drink PISS?From hadith Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Book 71, #590:

Narrated Anas:

"The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e., his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd, i.e., the camels, and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his book, The Water of Life: A Treatise on Urine Therapy, John W. Armstrong details numerous case histories of people suffering from gangrene, various types of cancer, diabetes, consumption, disease of the heart valves, Bright's Disease, bladder problems, malaria, fevers, wounds, burns, bronchial asthma, and many other afflictions. While their afflictions vary greatly, all of these patients have one thing in common: They were all cured by drinking their own urine. And as Armstrong says in his book, since Urine Therapy for virtually ailment is virtually the same, no diagnosis is required. All one needs to do is to consume a quantity of urine daily to be set on the road to wellville.

Contrary to the medical opinion that urine contains dead tissue and as such, cannot be assimilated into the body, Armstrong maintained that urine actually contains "flesh, blood, and vital tissues in a living solution." Deemed unfit for the British Army during World War I due to consumption, Armstrong consulted a number of doctors in an attempt to strengthen his weakened physical condition. After years of dead-ends with the British medical establishment, Armstrong set out to affect his own cure.

Feeling week and ill, he recalled the Bible proverb, "Drink waters out of thine own cistern," and began a strict regimen of fasting on his own urine and tap water for a period of 45 days. After breaking the fast, he ate cautiously and continued to drink his urine. The treatment proved to be his deliverance, as he gained weight and saw his energy restored and his skin rejuvenated. He became convinced of the healing properties of urine.

And he's not alone. The history of drinking urine for therapeutic purposes dates back at least to the Holy Roman Empire when great urinal troths were erected in the public squares of each city-state for residents to both contribute to, and benefit from. For centuries European Gypsies have known about the curative properties of pee, using cow urine to cure Bright's Disease (several acute and chronic diseases of the kidneys which produce albumin in urine). It has also been reported that the Yogis and Lamas of Tibet reach extended ages by drinking their own urine.

Through the ages there have been literally thousands of champions of this curious practice: In the early 1800s, a book titled, One Thousand Notable Things describes the use of urine to cure scurvy, relieve skin-itching, cleanse wounds, and many other treatments. An 18th century French dentist praised urine as a valuable mouthwash. In England during the 1860-70s, the drinking of one's own urine was a common cure for jaundice. In more modern times, the Alaskan Eskimos have used urine as an antiseptic to treat wounds.

http://www.wfmu.org/LCD/19/urine.html

Aqil

07-05-2005, 12:50 PM

From an interview with Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan by Jalil Amir that was published in the Feb. '99 issue of Jamhooria Islamia:

Q: Tell us about your stay in Saudi Arabia.

A: We embarked on a Umra as team of Jamhooria Islamia leaders. of course, Zia had arranged every convenience for us. We were accommodated in a Sheik's house. He is one of the richest builders in Saudi Arabia. He owns few gold shops in Qatar too. Sheik was a personal friend of Zia Ul Haq. During the time of Zia, we were not politically active. Since Zia did whatever Qazi wanted, there was no need for political power either. Hence we had lot of time. That is the main reason why we stayed 3 full months in Sheik's palace.

This sheik comes from a Bedouin family of southwestern Arabia. He had the habit of drinking camel urine and camel milk early in the morning. I asked him why does he do that? He replied that it is the family tradition as well as Islamic practice that is supported by Prophet Muhammad (saw). I was astounded. But Qazi explained to me that it is true. He told me three or four Hadiths in which the camel urine and camel milk drinking is suggested. So Qazi wanted to drink the camel urine and camel milk along with the Sheik. Since I could not bring up myself to drink the camel urine, I drank only fresh camel milk, which was thick and frothy. But Qazi drank the camel urine and camel milk the same amount and same time as the sheik. Qazi astounded me in this incident. I am amazed by the fact that Qazi was ready to go any length to mould his life in the teachings of the Prophet.

http://www.vinnomot.com/Islam/JamaatAgenda.htm

SAMURAI36

07-05-2005, 01:09 PM

[QUOTE]In his book, The Water of Life: A Treatise on Urine Therapy, John W. Armstrong details numerous case histories of people suffering from gangrene, various types of cancer, diabetes, consumption, disease of the heart valves, Bright's Disease, bladder problems, malaria, fevers, wounds, burns, bronchial asthma, and many other afflictions. While their afflictions vary greatly, all of these patients have one thing in common: They were all cured by drinking their own urine. And as Armstrong says in his book, since Urine Therapy for virtually ailment is virtually the same, no diagnosis is required. All one needs to do is to consume a quantity of urine daily to be set on the road to wellville.

Do you have access to this book? If so, I would ask that you please site some information from this book, in which its author sites a clear, scientific process of how urine cures all of these ailments.

Contrary to the medical opinion that urine contains dead tissue and as such, cannot be assimilated into the body, Armstrong maintained that urine actually contains "flesh, blood, and vital tissues in a living solution."

From this site:
http://www.e-kidneys.net/#urine

Urine is normally amber or straw colored, can have a pH of 4.6 to 8 (although it is normally acidic), contains less than 0.1 gm or protein, and contains less than 0.3 gm of glucose. In 24 hours, 600 to 2500 ml may be voided.

This is basic science at work here. Going back to the HADITH, we are told to mix MILK with URINE.

MILK is an ALKALINE substance. When such a substance is mixed with a completely ACIDIC substance like urine, it becomes completely TOXIC.

Deemed unfit for the British Army during World War I due to consumption, Armstrong consulted a number of doctors in an attempt to strengthen his weakened physical condition. After years of dead-ends with the British medical establishment, Armstrong set out to affect his own cure.

Feeling week and ill, he recalled the Bible proverb, "Drink waters out of thine own cistern," and began a strict regimen of fasting on his own urine and tap water for a period of 45 days. After breaking the fast, he ate cautiously and continued to drink his urine. The treatment proved to be his deliverance, as he gained weight and saw his energy restored and his skin rejuvenated. He became convinced of the healing properties of urine.

That's great, but still physiologically inaccurate?

Why does the body need to expounge nutrients that it so desparately needs? Why on earth would we convince ourselves that there is nothing whatsoever detrimental to come out of/within our urine, and that it is 100% healthy? Since when does the human body work that way?

The human body only washes out what it takes in, ONLY IN EXCESS. A person can have an excessive amount of protein in their urine, if they have been consuming far too much protein to begin with. The same applie to any/all nutrients within the body.

However, that does not mean that it was meant to be reconsumed, and certainly not by way of a substance as acidic as urine no less.

And he's not alone. The history of drinking urine for therapeutic purposes dates back at least to the Holy Roman Empire when great urinal troths were erected in the public squares of each city-state for residents to both contribute to, and benefit from. For centuries European Gypsies have known about the curative properties of pee, using cow urine to cure Bright's Disease (several acute and chronic diseases of the kidneys which produce albumin in urine).

The carryings on of Europeans are not my concern. Let us also take note, that during this very same time period stated, that Europe had succumb to plagues galore.

It has also been reported that the Yogis and Lamas of Tibet reach extended ages by drinking their own urine.

YOGIS do not dwell in TIBET, they dwell in INDIA. Such inaccuracies only lend themselves to the increduous notions presented here.

Through the ages there have been literally thousands of champions of this curious practice: In the early 1800s, a book titled, One Thousand Notable Things describes the use of urine to cure scurvy, relieve skin-itching, cleanse wounds, and many other treatments.

Allow me to clarify something:

The potent nature of urine has, and does have a positive effect as an ANTISEPTIC.

However, just as no one should internally consume HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, which is also a very effective antiseptic, neither should we be consuming urine.

An 18th century French dentist praised urine as a valuable mouthwash. In England during the 1860-70s, the drinking of one's own urine was a common cure for jaundice.

LMAO @ the FRENCH and ENGLISH.

Have you seen most British people's teeth? :puke2:

In more modern times, the Alaskan Eskimos have used urine as an antiseptic to treat wounds.

http://www.wfmu.org/LCD/19/urine.html

I agree, that urine COULD be used to treat external conditions as an antiseptic. But that speaks nothing towards injesting it.

However, this becomes more than just a scientific discussion, and delves into the realm of personal perspective.

My Brother, you have quoted information here, yet you have not told us what YOU prefer in this instance.......

What has been YOUR experience with drinking URINE? I would tell you the same thing I have told numerous Ortheodox Muslims in the past; take a cup, pour some milk of your choosing (cow's, camel's, goat's, etc), and find some urine from your preferred source.

Mix it together, and DRINK IT.

If you are still breathing afterwards (and do not need to have your stomach pumped--which I assure you that you will), then come back and tell me whether this HADITH makes sense TO YOU or not.

MA'SALAAM

SAMURAI36

07-05-2005, 01:10 PM

Aqil

07-05-2005, 02:44 PM

Do you have access to this book? If so, I would ask that you please site some information from this book, in which its author sites a clear, scientific process of how urine cures all of these ailments.Check out the website...

This is basic science at work here. Going back to the HADITH, we are told to mix MILK with URINE.Not "we are told," aqi...The Prophet (saw) told those who became ill because of Medina's climate to drink the milk and urine of the camels as a healing medicine.

MILK is an ALKALINE substance. When such a substance is mixed with a completely ACIDIC substance like urine, it becomes completely TOXIC.The word "alkali" is derived from Arabic al-qalīy, meaning, "the calcined ashes," referring to the original source of alkaline substance. Ashes were used in conjunction with animal fat to produce soap, a process known as "saponification." Milk is not an alkaline substance, it is an inorganic dairy product...

SAMURAI36

07-05-2005, 03:35 PM

Check out the website...

I did......All it did, was restate what you had already quoted from it in the beginning.

Aside from acquiring the book in question for myself (which I am not in position to do), then I would require at least an exerpt from it to scrutinize.

You sited the website in which the book is mentioned, and therefore you give the indication that you are at least casually familiar with it, as you site it as support for your perspective.

Again, I am not necessarily interested in what these others have stated, but rather what YOU think about all of this.

"we are told," aqi...The Prophet (saw) told those who became ill because of Medina's climate to drink the milk and urine of the camels as a healing medicine.

You have no proof that the Prophet told them this, which is the basis for this discussion regarding HADITH.

Thus "we are told" is indeed accurate, until or unless you can verify for yourself, the origin of this HADITH and any other.

The word "alkali" is derived from Arabic al-qalīy, meaning, "the calcined ashes," referring to the original source of alkaline substance. Ashes were used in conjunction with animal fat to produce soap, a process known as "saponification." Milk is not an alkaline substance, it is an inorganic dairy product...

You quoted all but the last statement of this quote from WIKIPEDIA. However, you should have also quoted the entire page from that site, so that we can all get a greater understanding of these substances:

ALKALINE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline

The word alkali can mean:-

In chemistry, an alkali is a specific type of base, formed as a carbonate, hydroxide or other ionic salt of an alkali metal or alkali earth metal element. The word alkali or the adjective alkaline are frequently used to refer to all bases, since most common bases are alkalis, although such use is really a synecdoche.
In the western parts of the USA, natural soda or potash deposits (soda and potash themselves are both alkali salts).
Alkali Springs is a place in Oregon in the USA.
Contents [hide]
1 Common properties of alkalis
2 Confusion between base and alkali
3 Alkali salts
4 Alkali soil
5 Etymology

[edit]
Common properties of alkalis
Alkalis are all Arrhenius bases and share many properties with other chemicals in this group (Arrhenius bases form hydroxide ions when dissolved in water). Common properties of alkaline solutions include:

Alkalis all form aqueous solutions.
Alkalis are bitter to taste (compared with acid solutions which are described as sour).
Caustic (causing chemical burns).
Slippery or soapy to the touch (due to the caustic reaction dissolving the surface of the skin and fingerprint).
Alkalis have a pH greater than 7 and hence can be detected with litmus paper (litmus will turn blue on contact with an alkali).
Another common test for alkalis is the use of phenolphthalein since it turns from colourless to pink when the pH moves from 8 to 10 (making it suitable for detecting all but the most dilute solutions of alkalis).
[edit]
Confusion between base and alkali
The terms base and alkali are often used interchangeably, since most common bases are alkalis. It is common to speak of "measuring the alkalinity of soil" when you actually mean measuring the pH (base property). Similarly, bases which are not alkalis, like ammonia, are sometimes erroneously referred to as alkaline.

[edit]
Alkali salts
Most basic salts are alkali salts.

Common alkali salts include:

sodium hydroxide (often called "caustic soda")
potassium hydroxide (commonly called "potash")
lye (generic term, for either of the previous two, or even for a mixture)
calcium carbonate (sometimes called "free lime")
[edit]
Alkali soil
Soil with a pH above 7.4 is normally referred to as alkaline. This soil property can occur naturally, due to the presence of alkali salts. Although some plants do prefer slightly basic soil (including cabbage family vegetables and buffalograss), most plant prefer a mildly acidic soil (pH between 6.0 and 6.8), and high pH levels can cause a problem.

In alkali lakes (a type of salt lake), evaporation concentrates the naturally occurring alkali salts, often forming a crust of mildly basic salt across a large area.

Examples of Alkali Lakes:

Redberry Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada.

Tramping Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada.

[edit]
Etymology
The word "alkali" is derived from Arabic al qalīy = "the calcined ashes", referring to the original source of alkaline substance. Ashes were used in conjunction with animal fat to produce soap, a process known as saponification.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali"

Now, let us review milk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk#Composition_and_nutrition

For other uses, see Milk (disambiguation).

A glass of milkMilk most often means the nutrient fluid produced by the mammary glands of female mammals. It provides the primary source of nutrition for newborns before they are able to digest more diverse foods. It is also processed into dairy products such as cream, butter, yoghurt, ice-cream, gelato, cheese, casein, whey protein, lactose, dried milk, and many other food-additive and industrial products.

It can also be used to mean

the white juice and the processed meat of the coconut in, more or less, liquid form, used especially in Thai, Indian (Kerala), and Polynesian cuisine.
a non-animal substitute such as soya milk, rice milk, and almond milk.
Human milk is fed to infants through breastfeeding, either directly or by the female expressing her milk to be saved and fed later. The early lactation milk is know as colostrum, and carries the mother's antibodies to the baby.

Contents [hide]
1 Composition and nutrition
2 Cow's milk
2.1 Varieties and brands
3 Other milk animals
4 Curdling
5 Distribution
6 Criticism
6.1 Nutritional issues
7 See also
8 External links

[edit]
Composition and nutrition
The composition of milk varies greatly among different mammals.

Human breast milk is thin and high in lactose, its primary sugar.
Cow's milk, in contrast, is lower in sugar and higher in protein, and is composed of about 3.5% to 6.5% milkfat, 4% to 8.5% milk solids and about 88% water. Its main protein (80%) is casein, while whey proteins make up most of the rest.
Lactose in milk is digested with the help of the enzyme lactase produced by the bodies of infants. In humans, production of lactase falls off towards adulthood (depending on the person's ethnic origin), in many cases to the point where lactose becomes indigestible, leading to lactose intolerance, a gastrointestinal condition that afflicts many.

There is some controversy over whether consumption of cow's milk is good for adult humans. While milk is often touted as healthy for its significant amount of calcium, required for healthy bone growth and nerve function, there is some disputed research to suggest that proteins in milk interfere with the use of its calcium to form bones by increasing the acidity level of the blood and triggering a response which balances that acidity level by leeching calcium that is presently in bones. However, the composition of milk differs widely from species to species; cow's milk is a completely different substance than goat's milk for instance, which any person who tastes both will recognize. Such factors as the lactose content, the proportion of and size of the butterfat globule and the strength of the curd, formed by the human enzymes digesting the milk, can differ from breed to breed and mammal to mammal.

To contradict your statement, milk is far from inorganic. Taking notice to the emboldened statement above, CASEIN is not an inorganic substance, and thus falls well within the category of an alkali.

However, all of your responses here have detracted from the more important ones that you seem to have been overlooking. Thus, allow me to reiterate them for you:

That's great, but still physiologically inaccurate?

Why does the body need to expounge nutrients that it so desparately needs? Why on earth would we convince ourselves that there is nothing whatsoever detrimental to come out of/within our urine, and that it is 100% healthy? Since when does the human body work that way?

The human body only washes out what it takes in, ONLY IN EXCESS. A person can have an excessive amount of protein in their urine, if they have been consuming far too much protein to begin with. The same applie to any/all nutrients within the body.

However, that does not mean that it was meant to be reconsumed, and certainly not by way of a substance as acidic as urine no less.

My Brother, you have quoted information here, yet you have not told us what YOU prefer in this instance.......

What has been YOUR experience with drinking URINE? I would tell you the same thing I have told numerous Ortheodox Muslims in the past; take a cup, pour some milk of your choosing (cow's, camel's, goat's, etc), and find some urine from your preferred source.

Mix it together, and DRINK IT.

If you are still breathing afterwards (and do not need to have your stomach pumped--which I assure you that you will), then come back and tell me whether this HADITH makes sense TO YOU or not.

There is always talk of some remote Muslim from some far off place or another that has allegedly consumed some urine-concoction, yet never have I to meet a Muslim that is willing to perform this locally, on a daily basis.

If this is indeed the words of the "Prophet", then there should be nothing to fear, yes? Therefore, I am asking, for the sake of putting all questions and doubts to rest, please perform this experiment, and prove the words of the Prophet to be accurate, in the eyes of us Non-believers.

MA'SALAAM

Aqil

07-05-2005, 05:58 PM

I will end this thread corruption by saying that if I am ever in Medina, Saudia Arabia and its climate causes me to become ill, I will do as the Prophet (saw) suggested some 1400 years ago...

IssaEl21

07-07-2005, 08:23 AM

Question If I May
Why Is The Holy House Of Allah , A ' Mosque ' In A So-Called Temple In Egypt?

Aqil

07-07-2005, 11:09 AM

I have no idea, aqi. Please be advised that the topic of this thread is, "The Difference Between the Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam."

Ma Salaam.

IssaEl21

07-07-2005, 12:30 PM

Ok How About This Question ;
How Do Orthodox Sunni Muslim Greet The Birth Of Boys Compared To Girls ?

Ralfa'il

07-07-2005, 03:44 PM

Lol @ brutha Issa!!!

((shakes head laughing))

I admire your tenacity bro......

You'd wear the bark off a tree.

IssaEl21

07-07-2005, 11:27 PM

Lol @ brutha Issa!!!

((shakes head laughing))

I admire your tenacity bro......

You'd wear the bark off a tree.

Maybe you Can Answer the question Yes
How Do Orthodox Sunni Muslim Greet The Birth Of Boys Compared To Girls ?

Ralfa'il

07-08-2005, 02:34 AM

Issa

Maybe you Can Answer the question Yes
Yes!

How Do Orthodox Sunni Muslim Greet The Birth Of Boys Compared To Girls ?
That's easy.

They say All praise is do to Allah!!!!

God is great!!!

...for any child that is born to them.

IssaEl21

07-08-2005, 09:17 AM

Issa

Yes!

That's easy.

They say All praise is do to Allah!!!!

God is great!!!

...for any child that is born to them.

I Love The Way You Play It Safe , Can You Explain Further ?????????

Aqil

07-08-2005, 09:48 AM

Back to the topic of my thread:

The Difference Between the Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam

By Mustafa El-Amin

It is essential that the American people in general – and African-Americans in particular – know and realize that there are very clear differences in the teachings of the religion of Islam and the teachings of the Nation of Islam (NOI). In order for people to make an accurate and clear judgment or decision about anyone or anything, it is always best for them to have as much correct information as possible...

For about fifty years the teachings of the NOI was the dominant message in America concerning Islam and Muslims. Most people, particularly African-Americans, saw the teachings of the NOI as the “pure message” of Islam. However, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975 and the assuming of the organization's leadership by his son Wallace – who is now Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad – the old message of the NOI began to fade away and a new message and teaching came into existence.

The new message was based on the Holy Qur’an (Muslim holy book) and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last Messenger of Allah (swt). It is not a completely new message or teaching in the sense that it has never been taught or heard in the world before; but it was called “new” because it was new to the ears of the members of the NOI. They never heard the pure and true teachings of Islam before...

The majority of the members of the former NOI were able to grasp the new message, and have changed and accepted the religion of Islam as it is practiced by over 1.5 billion Muslims the world over. However, the majority of the American people still have not had the same opportunity to hear the clear message of the Islamic religion, and most African-Americans are still deprived and denied the opportunity to hear the true teachings of Islam...

The Concept of God According to the Religion of Islam

“It is Allah who is God in Heaven and God on Earth, and He is full of wisdom and knowledge.” (Sura 43:84)

Allah (God), according to the religion of Islam, is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He is in total charge of the entire creation. He has no beginning or ending. He was never born and will never die. He has always been in existence. Allah (God) is not a physical being. The Qur’an says, “No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision and He is above total comprehension, yet He is well acquainted with all things.” The Qur’an also states: “Say He is Allah, the one and only; God the eternal, absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” (Sura 112)

The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters. He is neither male nor female. He is the source of human life and gender. He just says, “Be” and it is. Allah (God) is responsible for the creation of every human being. He created all colors and made our features beautiful...

The concept of God in the religion of Islam is an extremely vast and important concept. Perhaps the most important aspect of Islam is the belief in the Oneness (tauhid) of God. This is very different from the beliefs and teachings of the Nation of Islam.

The Concept of God According to the Nation of Islam

“God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.6)

The God of the Nation of Islam is called "Master Fard Muhammad," an Arab who was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia on February 26, 1877. “We believe that Allah (God) came in the person of Master Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930,” it says in The Final Call newspaper. On p. 11 of Elijah Muhammad’s bookThe Supreme Wisdom: Solution to the So-called Negro’s Problem, it states that “Allah came to us from the Holy City of Mecca in 1930.” And on p.67 of his book Our Savior Has Arrived, there is the following statement: “The Muslims worship one God, Allah. ‘Say: He (Allah) is one God.’ Yet 99% of the Old World Muslims think that Allah is only a spirit and is not a man.”

According to the teachings of the NOI there were several gods from the beginning of time. They teach that these gods live and die and pass their knowledge and godship from one to another. They teach that God is a man and He always was a man, and that the First God created Himself from and out of total triple darkness (!)

The NOI also teaches that the Black man is God. They believe that one god created the Moon and another one created the Sun, stars, and the Earth. According to their teachings, about 70 trillion years ago one of the Black gods got angry and tried to destroy the Earth with “high explosives.” He was unsuccessful in his attempt to destroy the entire Earth, but he did blow it in half. The part that was separated was the Moon. (If you have any doubts about this read Message to the Black Man, or ask any minister of the NOI.)...

The God of the Nation of Islam marries, has sex, eats food and makes mistakes; he is a human being. They teach that one of the gods, named “Alfonso,” went to Europe and married a pure white woman who gave birth to a daughter, which was a mistake. The lesson says the god "Alfonso" said, “Oops, we missed that time.” He wanted a son, so he tried again and they had a son. This son inherited the godship. He was half Black and half white.

The NOI knows this son of the god "Alfonso" as W. Fard Muhammad. They teach that God manifested himself in Fard Muhammad, a Caucasian-looking Arab man. He came to America to seek and to save the African- American people. This man, Fard Muhammad – according to the teachings of the NOI – has the power to control the Heavens and the Earth, wind, hail, snow and rain...

The God of the NOI is not an eternal being. He dies and his wisdom “only lives 25,000 years.” According to their teachings the world is in the 25,000-year cycle of Fard Muhammad’s wisdom. In fact, he is supposed to be the greatest and wisest god to have ever lived. He looks like a Caucasian; his mother was a Caucasian woman from the hills of Europe. (According to Fard, there was another Black god – a scientist named “Yakub” who created the white man some 6,000 years ago.)

As you can clearly see, the concept of God in the religion of Islam is extremely different from that of the Nation of Islam. Over 1.5 billion Muslims believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented in the religion of Islam and the Holy Qur’an. Only a few thousand believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented by the NOI. In the religion of Islam Allah (God), the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, is eternal. The entire creation is His kingdom.

The God of the NOI is not eternal; his life is short-lived. In fact, I understand that the so-called leader of the NOI, Minister Louis Farrakhan, is attempting to change their Master Fard Muhammad from God to “Mahdi,” and replace Fard with the true Islamic concept of God. The concept of God in the religion of Islam can never be changed. Allah (swt) is bigger than everything – nothing can contain Him. The man Fard Muhammad, the God of the Nation of Islam, can be contained anywhere...

The Concept of Man According to the Religion of Islam

The Qur’an says that Allah (God) created man with a good nature. He created the human being “in the best mold.” Every human being is created in nobility. According to the religion of Islam every human being has a natural inclination towards good, righteousness and truth.

Man is entrusted with the role of leader in creation. Allah (swt) gave man a limited free will, and he can decide which road he wants to travel in life. The Qur’an also says that Allah (swt) gave the human being the gift of knowledge, and that man was given the knowledge of creation (Sura 2:31-32). The human being was created and raised above the angels (i.e., forces in nature)...

According to Islam every human being is created by one God, Allah (swt), The Most High. Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated in his farewell address that there is no superiority of a black over a white or a white over a black, or an Arab over a non-Arab, etc. Islam teaches that all humans have the same potential for progress. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “every person is born a Muslim.” Any human being can become a Muslim. Islam is not just for a particular group of people. Man is created perfect in his nature...

Islam makes a clear distinction between the God Allah (swt) and man. Allah (swt) is all-powerful and independent, whereas man is totally dependent on Allah (swt) for everything. However, Allah (swt) has given us the freedom to think and reason, and He has blessed us with intelligence. The Holy Qur’an says that man was created to worship Allah (swt); “Nay, but worship Allah and be of those who give thanks.” (Sura 39:66)

The Concept of Man According to the Nation of Islam

The concept of man in the Nation of Islam is quite different from that of the religion of Islam. The NOI teaches that there are two totally different human beings with extremely different natures: the Black man and the white man. They teach that the Black man is the original man; the owner, the maker, the cream of the planet Earth and the god of the Universe. The Black man is god; his nature is righteous. “The original man, Allah has declared, is none other than the Black man. The Black man is the first and last, maker and owner of the Universe. From him came all brown, red, yellow and white people.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.53)

Not only does the NOI teach that there are two different types of human beings, they also teach that they (black and white people) were created by different “gods.” They teach that the Black man is self-created, and that the white man was created by a Black man named “Yakub” 6,000 years ago. Yakub taught the white man wickedness; he also taught them how to rule the Black man (See Message to the Black Man, pp.103-122)

The NOI teaches something totally different from the religion of Islam. They teach that man is God; that man can evolve to such a high mental level until he becomes God. “God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man’s intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive. Let that one among you who believes that God is other than man prove it!” (Message to the Black Man, pp. 6,7)

The Qur’an says that during the time of Moses the disbelievers said similar things. “And remember ye said, ‘O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly’” (Sura 2:55). The holy book that is accepted by over 1.5 billion Muslims clearly states that Allah (swt) is the Owner and Maker of the Universe, not man. “He it is who created the Heavens and the Earth in truth.” (Sura 6:73) “Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon giving light; and it is He who made the night and day to follow each other.” (Sura 25:61-62)

And the Qur’an clearly states that man is created by Allah (swt) in Sura 55:14, which reads as follows: “The Beneficent hath made known the Qur’an. He hath created men; He hath taught him utterance.”...

The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an According to the Religion of Islam

The Holy Qur’an is the rule and guide of every Muslim. All Muslims accept and believe that the Qur’an is the last revelation from Allah (swt). The religion of Islam teaches that the Qur’an is a Divine Book for all times and climes. The Qur’an was revealed to the last prophet and messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saws). Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the work of Allah (swt), and that it is the highest body of knowledge on this planet...

The Qur’an is a pure and perfect book; it is a summation and confirmation of all the previous holy books. The religion of Islam teaches that no other revelation will come to man. The Qur’an is the last revelation. “All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness.” (Sura 18:2)

What the Nation of Islam Says About the Holy Qur'an

The NOI does not accept or teach that the Holy Qur’an was revealed by Allah (swt), or that it is the complete and final revelation from Allah (swt). The NOI teaches that the Qur’an was written by men. According to the teachings of the NOI, every 25,000 years a group of scientists come together to write a holy book. Thus, according to them, another holy book will come. For about fifty years the NOI taught that the Qur’an was to be used only for a certain period of time, and then another book would be written in its place. (See Message to the Black Man, p.91 & 97.)

The NOI does not teach that the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (saw) by Allah (swt). It teaches that “there is another book that none has been able to see or read; its contents coming soon from Allah – the ‘Last Book’ which takes us into the Hereafter.” Also, “the Holy Qur’an and the Glory Books should be read and studied by us, the so-called American Negro"...

Both the present Bible and the Holy Qur’an must soon give way to that Holy Book which no man as yet – but Allah – has seen.” And: “We, the original nation of the Earth...are the writers of the Bible and Qur’an. We make such history once every 25,000 years. When such history is written, it is done by 24 of our scientists. One acts as judge or god for the others and 23 actually do the work of getting up the future of the nation, and all is put into one book.

And at intervals where such and such part or portion will come to pass, that people will be given that part of the book through one among that people from one of the 12 major scientists, as it is then called a ‘scripture,’ which actually means a script of writing from something original, or book.” (Message to the Black Man, p.108)

In 1975, Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad, son of Elijah Muhammad, changed the teachings concerning the Holy Qur’an. He told NOI members that the Holy Qur’an is the final revelation and that no other book was coming. In fact, Imam Muhammad transformed the NOI into a totally new community. The majority of its members embraced the religion of Islam. Minister Louis Farrakhan, who calls himself the leader of the NOI, did not accept the changes and held on to the old teachings of the NOI. Imam Muhammad and the majority of the Muslims in America are not members of the NOI, headed by Min. Farrakhan...

It must be said here, however, that there are many things concerning the Qur’an that are taught by the NOI that agree with the religion of Islam’s teachings of the Muslim Holy Book. For example, Elijah Muhammad wrote in his book, Message to the Black Man that “the Holy Qur’an and Shari’ah contains some of the most beautiful prayers that one ever heard, read or recited. It is called 'The Glorious Qur’an,' and, without mistake, that is just what it is.” (p. 92)

(MUSTAFA EL-AMIN is the author of "The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference?")

Aqil

11-24-2005, 12:41 PM

Imam Mustafa El-Amin is a noted author, lecturer, teacher and businessman, and a recognized expert in the field of Freemasonry. Having devoted much of his life to work, study and research, he has given many lectures on a wide range of subjects. His works have led to positive dialogue between Muslims and Freemasons. His book, The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam, What Is The Difference? is a book that clears up many misconceptions about the religion of Islam. His latest book, Afrocentricity, Malcolm X, and Al-Islam, presents valuable information about two ideologies that have had a great impact on African-Americans.

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 04:16 PM

NOI theology is one of the best things to happen to post-Diaspora Blacks. In the midst of lynchings, economic strife, fear, discrimination, there came a man named MFM with answers to questions of even skeptical whites. Can someone please explain who would take precious time from their life to theorize the situation of Blacks from the "beginning", down to now(tribulatory times)? If you think times are trying now, imagine how our people felt back in the day. This mysterious figure showed up just in time for oppressed, underrepresented Black folks. Who else in this entire universe gave a d@mn? I still shed a tear every now and then, for the gift of "life" that he gave me. Many religions will point to an unseen God, and, make rosy promises. None of these tactics have ever worked for Blacks in America, let alone the world over where oppression runs rampant. If MFM can explain the creation, unexplained behavior, have a master plan for us, save us from ourselves and our enemies, then I regard him as a god(supreme knowledge). Many "religious" leaders can't touch his wisdom which adds up numerically, historically, politically,etc. So we are left in mystery, with too many unanswered questions. Like a pimp giving his h03 just enough, so she can return unquenched, begging child-like on her knees. So many people say "GOD" works in mysterious ways", but doubt he may be a MAN, and show up amongst a bunch of 'degenerate' Blacks. No other religion had a racial twist, since no other peoples had been under such pressure as long as us. If there is an invisible GOD, he sure didn't lend us a helping hand throughout our struggle. We had to fight tooth&nail for EVERYTHING. Including our lives. I officially became "saved" once i thought outside the box, and let his knowledge open my eyes to the reality of this whitemans world. Without NOI, and the theories of Dr, Frances Cress Welsing, I would probably be still stuck asking "WHY?" There is more to spirituality than falling out being slain by the spirit. This is a real material world, and politics make it go round, so if a particular organization refuses to acknowledge this fact, I'll pass. I see no need in praying to the sky, since the sky been blue for eons, and has never officially answered prayers. I made a vow that as long as white supremacy remains intact, then I will fight this battle, by embedding the legacy of the two above dieties, in the psyche of my seeds for generations to come.

Dual Karnayn

11-24-2005, 05:46 PM

Spicy Brown

Are you in the NOI sis?

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 06:51 PM

Spicy Brown

Are you in the NOI sis?

No, Dual Karnayn, I am not an official member of NOI. I do agree with the lifestyle they urge us as Blacks to lead. Coincidentally my nature fell in order with their agenda, so I see no need in "converting". This title-grabbing habit is what divides us as a people when intruders prey upon our weaknesses. My mother told me she named me "Fatima" by birth for a reason, now i see my position in life, and the holy name it represents, and it all make sense. I tried Christianity, and the whole nine, but everytime I confessed my sins, and became "saved" uneventful things would start to unfold*.

Dual Karnayn

11-24-2005, 06:55 PM

Spicy

No, Dual Karnayn, I am not an official member of NOI. I do agree with the lifestyle they urge us as Blacks to lead. Coincidentally my nature fell in order with their agenda, so I see no need in "converting". This title-grabbing habit is what divides us as a people when intruders prey upon our weaknesses. My mother told me she named me "Fatima" by birth for a reason, now i see my position in life, and the holy name it represents, and it all make sense. I tried Christianity, and the whole nine, but everytime I confessed my sins, and became "saved" uneventful things would start to unfold*.
Do you know the teachings of the Nation of Islam?

....the Lessons and Problem Book?

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 07:17 PM

Spicy

Do you know the teachings of the Nation of Islam?

....the Lessons and Problem Book?

I understand the basic outline of the teachings, however, I feel as though there is no reason to religify it, since, T.H.E.M. made all clear, and set in motion a way of life. Other affiliations do this, because they have no answer for anything.............. everythings up in the air. I am not familiar with the Lessons and Problems Book. Enlighten me if you will:geek:

Dual Karnayn

11-24-2005, 07:20 PM

Spicy

I understand the basic outline of the teachings, however, I feel as though there is no reason to religify it, since, T.H.E.M. made all clear, and set in motion a way of life. Other affiliations do this, because they have no answer for anything.............. everythings up in the air. I am not familiar with the Lessons and Problems Book. Enlighten me if you will
*faints*

Give me a while to recover...lol.

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 07:28 PM

Spicy

*faints*

Give me a while to recover...lol.

:massage: relieve thineself, brother, just told the truth, waiting for the enlightening.............:nightowl: :lol:

Dual Karnayn

11-24-2005, 07:37 PM

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 07:57 PM

Spicy

I'm trying to figure out where did you get your knowledge of the "teaching" of the Nation of Islam if you don't even know what the Problem Book and Lessons are?

THOSE are the original teachings!

I hope you aren't just getting your information from speeches that Farrakhan and other ministers have made.

Do you believe in life after physical death?

Do you know who the devil is and how he is made (according to the teachings)?

Do you know about the 23 scientists who predict the future?

See, dual K, I got my info from various sources, maybe it wasn't titled as such where I got my info, but trust&believe, some things I do know:

I don't believe in life after a physical death. According to the teachings, whites were genetically grafted from original Black, to Albino white via selective breeding light with lighter. I am familiar with the 23 scientists who prophesy and predict future events in the life of the original. According to T.H.E.M., these were all men........ how can a succession of gods be born without the help of a female goddess? I augued this point many of times, cuz without the man/woman(god/goddess) logic, it falls into the spooky conception of the gods:ghost:

omowalejabali

11-24-2005, 08:29 PM

omowalejabali

11-24-2005, 08:47 PM

Spicy

I'm trying to figure out where did you get your knowledge of the "teaching" of the Nation of Islam if you don't even know what the Problem Book and Lessons are?

THOSE are the original teachings!

I hope you aren't just getting your information from speeches that Farrakhan and other ministers have made.

Do you believe in life after physical death?

Do you know who the devil is and how he is made (according to the teachings)?

Do you know about the 23 scientists who predict the future?

THE SUPREME WISDOM is the ORIGINAL teachings of Master Farad Muhammad as teached to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

The Messernger then authored the SUPREME WISDOM #2 based on thes teachings and combined these teachings in the book titled MESSAGE TO THE BLACKMAN IN AMERICA.

In all my years I am proud to have retained within my posession a copy of the Original 1965 publication of the Message which is the SOLE book which has remained with me over the past 40 years.

In reference to the SUPREME WISDOM, the Preface reads,

"As we near the exhaustion of the Wisdom of this world which has not been able to shed enough light on our path in search for the Supreme Wisdom to keep us from stumbling and falling, we now seek the wisdom of Allah, The Best Knower and Guide in the Person of Master Fard Muhammad (to whom be praised forever). The reader will find that light in this book."

omowalejabali

11-24-2005, 09:20 PM

Three Clues Essential For the True Believer to Understand the Difference:

1. Islam is Mathematics and Mathematics is Islam.

2. "The Key to Supreme Wisdom, written by Artephius, is a curious book about the planets and other mystical subjects."

3. Artephius is a well-known exponent of the Hermetic philosophy, who died in the 12th century, and is said to have lived more than a thousand years my means of alchemical secrets. See the Philosopher's Stone.

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 09:27 PM

spicybrown,

Both Master Farad Muhammad ("Wallace" Dodd Ford) and Elijah Muhammad (Elijah Poole) were taught and discipled by Noble Drew Ali (Timothy Drew) who established the Moorish Science Temple and also had a close relationship to Marcus Garvey. It is no coincidence the Elijah Muhammed was known as "Honorable" which also was a common reference to the "Honorable" Marcus Garvey.

Yes, indeed. In fact I visited a NOI website, and tried with my life to convince thr founder of the site that MFM's teachings were inspired from Moorish Temple of Science...............As usual, i got booted for 'knowin a lil' too much'

omowalejabali

11-24-2005, 10:08 PM

Yes, indeed. In fact I visited a NOI website, and tried with my life to convince thr founder of the site that MFM's teachings were inspired from Moorish Temple of Science...............As usual, i got booted for 'knowin a lil' too much'

sisterSpicybrown,

I commend and applaud your efforts and persistence in seeking Supreme Knowledge and Wisdom inface of the chief hypocrites.

The Truth is in the Supreme Wisdom books #i and #2 and I must state that "NOI teachings are based upon Moorish Science and the Holy Koran of the Moorish Science Temple of America." (my own conclusion).

Furthermore, a student of Moorish Science is the author Hakim Bey who developed the Manifesto of the Black Thorn League which established links between Moorish Science and the Celtic "hermetics" who claimed a common lineage from ancient Khemet.

http://www.hermetic.com/bey/blackthorn.html

omowalejabali

11-24-2005, 10:18 PM

The current rejection of Noble Drew Ali's teachings and dismissal of their authenticity can be explained in the fact it would necessitate legitimizing the belief that not only was Master Farad "God in Person" but also that Noble Drew was "Jesus in Person" thus Master Farad was El Mahdi, the Father who was to come after the Son, and the "Final Call" with The Messenger playing the role of Apostle. If accepted, there would be no Second Coming of Jesus because he appeared to the Nation in the Person of Noble Drew Ali...

spicybrown

11-24-2005, 11:52 PM

omowalejabali

11-25-2005, 12:55 AM

[QUOTE=spicybrown]How do you feel about the FBI claiming MFM was an ex-convict(Walli Ford)?[/QUOTE

Virtually every leader of every Black nationalist organization since Marcus Garvey have been subject to FBI probe and some form of incarceration and I believe that MFM, the HEM and NDAli were all convicted of some type of alledged criminal activity. COINTELPRO has been in effect for a very long time and the "Message" of MFM may have discouraged some but His work inspired many more under the Lost-Found NOI banner. Many times among the working masses imprisonment somehow legitimizes one's "street credibility".

spicybrown

11-25-2005, 05:26 AM

omowalejabali

11-25-2005, 09:27 AM

[QUOTE=omowalejabali]
I should rephrase that: Do you believe that Fard Muhammed and Walli Ford (ex-convict/conman) are the same man as the FBI claimed? Do you know anything about his background/childhood, or true ethnicity?

This is the same man whose birth name was Dodd Ford. I tried to send you a link by PM but was not successful. Some information I am not able to disclose openly. "Family Secrets". You know? We never know who "The Watchers" are!

Dual Karnayn

11-25-2005, 04:34 PM

Spicy

See, dual K, I got my info from various sources, maybe it wasn't titled as such where I got my info, but trust&believe, some things I do know:

I don't believe in life after a physical death. According to the teachings, whites were genetically grafted from original Black, to Albino white via selective breeding light with lighter. I am familiar with the 23 scientists who prophesy and predict future events in the life of the original.
Master P said: Uhhh......

I see you ARE pretty familiar with the teachings after all...lol.

The question I had earlier was most of these teachings were contained in a book called the Surpeme Wisdom which contained the Lessons and the Problem Book.

According to T.H.E.M., these were all men........ how can a succession of gods be born without the help of a female goddess? I augued this point many of times, cuz without the man/woman(god/goddess) logic, it falls into the spooky conception of the gods
Lol...I'm gonna leave that one alone.
The Nation of Islam was and still is a pretty patriarchal institution.

We also must understand that may of what some people called "original Black men" who ruled the Earth and built these great cities weren't men at all.
They were deities known as Nephilim, Anunnaki, Devas, ect.....

We look similar to them and many through out history have mistaken these beings as HUMAN beings.

Omowale

Both Master Farad Muhammad ("Wallace" Dodd Ford) and Elijah Muhammad (Elijah Poole) were taught and discipled by Noble Drew Ali (Timothy Drew) who established the Moorish Science Temple and also had a close relationship to Marcus Garvey. It is no coincidence the Elijah Muhammed was known as "Honorable" which also was a common reference to the "Honorable" Marcus Garvey.
I've seen several pictures of Elijah Muhammad wereing a tassled Fez just like the Moabites and Shriners.
Much of the teachings of the NOI are similar to that of masonry although I'm not sure exactly where it all fits in.

THE SUPREME WISDOM is the ORIGINAL teachings of Master Farad Muhammad as teached to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

The Messernger then authored the SUPREME WISDOM #2 based on thes teachings and combined these teachings in the book titled MESSAGE TO THE BLACKMAN IN AMERICA.

Right....

I always suspected that just like some of Nation of Islam led by Farrakhan is a little different than the Nation of Islam that was led by Elijah....Fard's original Nation of Islam may have been different also.

In the Supreme Wisdom Fard doesn't call himself Allah, but I believe he is known as a Prophet and Savior.

omowalejabali

11-25-2005, 06:30 PM

Spicy

Master P said: Uhhh......

I see you ARE pretty familiar with the teachings after all...lol.

The question I had earlier was most of these teachings were contained in a book called the Surpeme Wisdom which contained the Lessons and the Problem Book.

Lol...I'm gonna leave that one alone.
The Nation of Islam was and still is a pretty patriarchal institution.

We also must understand that may of what some people called "original Black men" who ruled the Earth and built these great cities weren't men at all.
They were deities known as Nephilim, Anunnaki, Devas, ect.....

We look similar to them and many through out history have mistaken these beings as HUMAN beings.

Omowale

I've seen several pictures of Elijah Muhammad wereing a tassled Fez just like the Moabites and Shriners.
Much of the teachings of the NOI are similar to that of masonry although I'm not sure exactly where it all fits in.

Right....

I always suspected that just like some of Nation of Islam led by Farrakhan is a little different than the Nation of Islam that was led by Elijah....Fard's original Nation of Islam may have been different also.

In the Supreme Wisdom Fard doesn't call himself Allah, but I believe he is known as a Prophet and Savior.

brother DK,

The Moorish Science Temple's leader Noble Drew Ali was associated with a Rosicrucian order and ,as a magician, incorporated elements of Hermeticism into "Moorish Science". Of course, this Hermeticism is actually teachings and ritual from the Khemetic Book of Thoth.

Master Farah did not refer to Himself as "Allah" for this would have been akin to claiming himself Greater than His Master, Noble Drew who was known as "Jesus" in Person.

Upon the Messenger Elijah's ascendancy He conferred this attribute upon His Master Farad.

omowalejabali

11-25-2005, 07:01 PM

See, dual K, I got my info from various sources, maybe it wasn't titled as such where I got my info, but trust&believe, some things I do know:

I don't believe in life after a physical death. According to the teachings, whites were genetically grafted from original Black, to Albino white via selective breeding light with lighter. I am familiar with the 23 scientists who prophesy and predict future events in the life of the original. According to T.H.E.M., these were all men........ how can a succession of gods be born without the help of a female goddess? I augued this point many of times, cuz without the man/woman(god/goddess) logic, it falls into the spooky conception of the gods:ghost:

"how can a succession of gods be born without the help of a female goddess?"

There is a key in the Holy Koran that can be used to unlock the Supreme Knowledge contained within the biblical code and the 7 Circle Koran. This is difficult because most Muslims appear to not fully KNOW the reverence which was bestoyed upon The Four Perfect Women, and one in particular.

I suggest meditating upon Sura LXVI.11

Peace Be Unto You All!

Moorfius

12-02-2005, 07:39 PM

Hotep

Once we truley understand just who and what,...all so-called "Religions",...outside of the "Origenal" so-called African Mysteries or better yet M`Tam and Ma`at, called Spirituality,...if our "Hart" is pure and un-currupted we will start to understand what has happen over the millenia to "Us".We (Africans) don't have a "Birth-Record"! We are "Not" a "Race"! We must learn to trust each other enough to at least look into what is being said and know ware or at least allow ourself to be guided to the correct scorce of "Pre-History", and that will "Always" lead to KMT or Egypt and Africa today. To be competitive and egotistic concerning these matters is a Absolute waste of time and effort,...who are we trying to impress??
None of the western Prophets were sent to Africa, although they came from Africa, they were sent with gideance for the wicked "Western-Mind" or Indo-europeans, who later "Forced" with a vengance "Their" currped, distorted versions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam on "Africans"! All three came into Africa with murder, rape, robbery, the worst kind of perverted sadistic forms of slavery, suffering and death,...in the name of what ever. When we fully understand that none of these have brought any thing positive to the home land except "Oppresion" and "Poverty", we will understand that we sooner than later "Must" leave them alone and return to the ways of the "Ancient Kemetic Ancestors", this is the way to our future success,...the others will only hold "Us" back as they are doing today,...as some of us are still "Lost" in our "Biblical-Myths" and other "Distortions" that cripple the African-Mind from "Self-Determination". Remember: Any Religion that religates the "Woman" to a inferrior position is "False-Doctorin" and there is "No" redeeming value in it what so ever! It is time for us to wake all the way up and return to our own and not be afraid to abandon "All" of the sick western mind-sets of "White-Supremacy" that are their Indo-Europeanized Religions,..."All" of them. Ask your self....Why are all of these Big-Tree socalled Major Main-Stream Religions all controled by ((Indo-European-Types-Only))??? None are "Rooted" in "your" home land of Africa but only in Europe. Why hold on to something that is not controled by you when it comes to your most prized posession,...your Mind, Body, Soul and Spirituality??? If you don't control it, it will control you Black Man and Black Woman. People Know Thy Self

Ase`

http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/DocBen/ScienceTechnology.html

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/blshang.htm

http://www.rense.com/general43/before.htm

http://www.theearthcenter.com/

Dual Karnayn

12-09-2005, 04:41 PM

Moorfius

12-11-2005, 03:28 PM

Real Africans NEVER claimed not to have a birth record!

Nearly every African ethnic group going all the way back to Ethiopia and Egypt not only had records of WHEN they were created but WHO created them and HOW they were created!

It's on the walls and in oral traditions...it's there.

To believe the Black man unfolded somewhere in space 99 trillion years ago and will continue to go on indefinately is totally unfounded in the facts.

I used to believe man (the Black man) was god and used to run around calling myself god...until I got sick...and needed the REAL God to help me out.

A lot of this stuff sounds good.

It's nice ear candy, but it is made up not based on any African sources and actually counter productive to our progress.

It makes you lazy and delusional.

While everybody else is working and studying to empower themselves, you'll be runnning around in the ghetto with a dirty coat on getting into fights with other fools who think they're god too.

White men come and arrest "god" and throw god's ***** in jail....lol.

Hotep

With all due respects, ware is that birth record? Have you seen for your self this evidence you speak of if you have not been there to see this for your self? How then can you make such statements, contrary to what is already a fact,...that if some other G-d out side of your self can heal you!? G-d is with in every one and every thing with out exception. If you got over being sick,..."you had to be healed from with in, that is the life with in you and all of us that heals. When you reach the point ware you lose the ability to heal your self, then your life will end on this earth. When you close your eyes on this (life) earth you open your eyes in another life,..."Life comes from Life"
There are those who can help you understand more than you know now, in time if you are ready. For example,...the totality of the ancient mysteries are avilible to those who can purify them self enouth to be initiated in to the ancient African mysteries,...but ones heart must be "Pure". Life is a matter of choices,...so choose wisely,...it is up to you. When one speaks of knowing something about KMT mystries and the writing on the walls, (Medu Neter) one is saying he or she is in agreement with all others who have leared the same,...for there is "No" conflict in the "Word of G-d". The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the most mis-understood and at the same time understood by African Amerikkkans. We think we know, but we really don't know what he was say-ing to us,...contrary to popular thinking,...the so-called master was (Human not G-d almighty) an "Initiate",...and every thing that was tought in those days to his students has been confirmed today and has always been true, even before he said it. We make our self "Foolish" thinking other wise,...when "None" of us has come with or will come up with any thing better ever for the salvation of Black People,...espishily in Amerikkka.

Ase`

Dual Karnayn

12-11-2005, 03:51 PM

Moorifus

With all due respects, ware is that birth record? Have you seen for your self this evidence you speak of if you have not been there to see this for your self? How then can you make such statements, contrary to what is already a fact,...that if some other G-d out side of your self can heal you!? G-d is with in every one and every thing with out exception. If you got over being sick,..."you had to be healed from with in, that is the life with in you and all of us that heals. When you reach the point ware you lose the ability to heal your self, then your life will end on this earth. When you close your eyes on this (life) earth you open your eyes in another life,..."Life comes from Life"
There are those who can help you understand more than you know now, in time if you are ready. For example,...the totality of the ancient mysteries are avilible to those who can purify them self enouth to be initiated in to the ancient African mysteries,...but ones heart must be "Pure". Life is a matter of choices,...so choose wisely,...it is up to you. When one speaks of knowing something about KMT mystries and the writing on the walls, (Medu Neter) one is saying he or she is in agreement with all others who have leared the same,...for there is "No" conflict in the "Word of G-d". The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the most mis-understood and at the same time understood by African Amerikkkans. We think we know, but we really don't know what he was say-ing to us,...contrary to popular thinking,...the so-called master was (Human not G-d almighty) an "Initiate",...and every thing that was tought in those days to his students has been confirmed today and has always been true, even before he said it. We make our self "Foolish" thinking other wise,...when "None" of us has come with or will come up with any thing better ever for the salvation of Black People,...espishily in Amerikkka.

Egyptian creation.

"A very old legend in Egypt told that mankind was divided into four types when they were made on the potter's wheel by the great creator Khnum. He made them all out of mud of various colours from the Nile and the first was - Romut, meaning "men", and these were the Egyptians. The second from the potter's wheel was - Áamu, the people from the desert mountains east of the Nile.
Number three, called - Temehu, was the people from the Mediterranean coast in today's Libya west of the Nile Delta.
The last to be made - Nehesu, was the black people to the south of Egypt.
According to another legend mankind was created from a tear that fell from the eye of the god Re, and turned into men and women. The fair-skinned Libyans, considered as "cousins" by the people in the Nile valley, were formed in the same way. The two other people have a tear from Re as their origin too, but in a more irregular way. "

http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/1egypt/index.htm

Fans (Bantu) creation:

"In the beginning there was nothing but Nzame. This god is really three: Nzame, Mebere, and Nkwa. It was the Nzame part of the god that created the universe and the earth, and brought life to it. While the three parts of Nzame were admiring this creation, it was decided to create a ruler for the earth. So was created the elephant, the leopard, and the monkey, but it was decided that something better had to be created. Between the three of them they made a new creature in their image, and called him Fam (power), and told him to rule the earth. Before long, Fam grew arrogant, he mistreated the animals and stopped worshipping Nzame.

Nzame, angered, brought forth thunder and lightning and destroyed everything that was, except Fam, who had been promised immortality. Nzame, in his three aspects, decided to renew the earth and try again. He applied a new layer of earth to the planet, and a tree grew upon it. The tree dropped seeds which grew into more trees. Leaves that dropped from them into the water became fish, those that dropped on land became animals. The old parched earth still lies below this new one, and if one digs deep enough it can be found in the form of coal. Nzame made a new man, one who would know death, and called him Sekume. Sekume fashioned a woman, Mbongwe, from a tree. These people were made with both Gnoul (body) and Nissim (soul). Nissim gives life to Gnoul. When Gnoul dies, Nissim lives on."

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm

Like I said bro, teaching man is god and had no beginnings is strictly the teachings of Fard and Elijah.......not Africans and ancient Egyptians.

We've always had birth records and the accounts of our creation are very similar to the accounts given in the Bible and Koran.
Don't let Satan SEPARATE you from the rest of humanity and turn you against God with grandious deception.

Now I agree that Elijah Muhammad was a very wise man and much of his teachings were outstanding.
If you respect and understand the value of his teachings why don't you fall in line and join your local NOI mosque?

That's what I would do if I believed.

Lol...notice the word "Sekume"..sounds familiar.

Moorfius

12-11-2005, 08:50 PM

[QUOTE=Dual Karnayn]Moorifus

Egyptian creation.

"A very old legend in Egypt told that mankind was divided into four types when they were made on the potter's wheel by the great creator Khnum. He made them all out of mud of various colours from the Nile and the first was - Romut, meaning "men", and these were the Egyptians. The second from the potter's wheel was - Áamu, the people from the desert mountains east of the Nile.
Number three, called - Temehu, was the people from the Mediterranean coast in today's Libya west of the Nile Delta.
The last to be made - Nehesu, was the black people to the south of Egypt.
According to another legend mankind was created from a tear that fell from the eye of the god Re, and turned into men and women. The fair-skinned Libyans, considered as "cousins" by the people in the Nile valley, were formed in the same way. The two other people have a tear from Re as their origin too, but in a more irregular way. "

http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/1egypt/index.htm

Fans (Bantu) creation:

"In the beginning there was nothing but Nzame. This god is really three: Nzame, Mebere, and Nkwa. It was the Nzame part of the god that created the universe and the earth, and brought life to it. While the three parts of Nzame were admiring this creation, it was decided to create a ruler for the earth. So was created the elephant, the leopard, and the monkey, but it was decided that something better had to be created. Between the three of them they made a new creature in their image, and called him Fam (power), and told him to rule the earth. Before long, Fam grew arrogant, he mistreated the animals and stopped worshipping Nzame.

Nzame, angered, brought forth thunder and lightning and destroyed everything that was, except Fam, who had been promised immortality. Nzame, in his three aspects, decided to renew the earth and try again. He applied a new layer of earth to the planet, and a tree grew upon it. The tree dropped seeds which grew into more trees. Leaves that dropped from them into the water became fish, those that dropped on land became animals. The old parched earth still lies below this new one, and if one digs deep enough it can be found in the form of coal. Nzame made a new man, one who would know death, and called him Sekume. Sekume fashioned a woman, Mbongwe, from a tree. These people were made with both Gnoul (body) and Nissim (soul). Nissim gives life to Gnoul. When Gnoul dies, Nissim lives on."

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm

Like I said bro, teaching man is god and had no beginnings is strictly the teachings of Fard and Elijah.......not Africans and ancient Egyptians.

We've always had birth records and the accounts of our creation are very similar to the accounts given in the Bible and Koran.
Don't let Satan SEPARATE you from the rest of humanity and turn you against God with grandious deception.

Now I agree that Elijah Muhammad was a very wise man and much of his teachings were outstanding.
If you respect and understand the value of his teachings why don't you fall in line and join your local NOI mosque?

That's what I would do if I believed.

Lol...notice the word "Sekume"..sounds familiar.[/QUOTE

Hotep

Why is it that it is thought that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the only one who knew about Africans pre-history? And when exactly is this birth of Africans taken place (according to the birth record you speak of),...how old is the Earth and at what point is the birth of it's Origenal Black Huemans birth taken place? Who is your G-d and ware is it? And what does it look like? How is it that any one can think they are not a part of G-d and seperate from that Great Creator of All things,...(Independent)?? Then what is the Medu Neter to you? And all of the scholers such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jachanan, Dr. Ivan Van Sertama, Dr. E.M. James, Dr. Francis Cress Welsing, Dr. Ray Hagens, Dr. Niam Akbar, Dr. Richard King, Nur Ankh Amen and thousand of others are "Wrong" and you are "Right"??? Then we are in deed blessed to have "You" in our presents.

Ase`

Moorfius

12-11-2005, 08:59 PM

[QUOTE=Dual Karnayn]Moorifus

Egyptian creation.

"A very old legend in Egypt told that mankind was divided into four types when they were made on the potter's wheel by the great creator Khnum. He made them all out of mud of various colours from the Nile and the first was - Romut, meaning "men", and these were the Egyptians. The second from the potter's wheel was - Áamu, the people from the desert mountains east of the Nile.
Number three, called - Temehu, was the people from the Mediterranean coast in today's Libya west of the Nile Delta.
The last to be made - Nehesu, was the black people to the south of Egypt.
According to another legend mankind was created from a tear that fell from the eye of the god Re, and turned into men and women. The fair-skinned Libyans, considered as "cousins" by the people in the Nile valley, were formed in the same way. The two other people have a tear from Re as their origin too, but in a more irregular way. "

http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/1egypt/index.htm

Fans (Bantu) creation:

"In the beginning there was nothing but Nzame. This god is really three: Nzame, Mebere, and Nkwa. It was the Nzame part of the god that created the universe and the earth, and brought life to it. While the three parts of Nzame were admiring this creation, it was decided to create a ruler for the earth. So was created the elephant, the leopard, and the monkey, but it was decided that something better had to be created. Between the three of them they made a new creature in their image, and called him Fam (power), and told him to rule the earth. Before long, Fam grew arrogant, he mistreated the animals and stopped worshipping Nzame.

Nzame, angered, brought forth thunder and lightning and destroyed everything that was, except Fam, who had been promised immortality. Nzame, in his three aspects, decided to renew the earth and try again. He applied a new layer of earth to the planet, and a tree grew upon it. The tree dropped seeds which grew into more trees. Leaves that dropped from them into the water became fish, those that dropped on land became animals. The old parched earth still lies below this new one, and if one digs deep enough it can be found in the form of coal. Nzame made a new man, one who would know death, and called him Sekume. Sekume fashioned a woman, Mbongwe, from a tree. These people were made with both Gnoul (body) and Nissim (soul). Nissim gives life to Gnoul. When Gnoul dies, Nissim lives on."

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm

Like I said bro, teaching man is god and had no beginnings is strictly the teachings of Fard and Elijah.......not Africans and ancient Egyptians.

We've always had birth records and the accounts of our creation are very similar to the accounts given in the Bible and Koran.
Don't let Satan SEPARATE you from the rest of humanity and turn you against God with grandious deception.

Now I agree that Elijah Muhammad was a very wise man and much of his teachings were outstanding.
If you respect and understand the value of his teachings why don't you fall in line and join your local NOI mosque?

That's what I would do if I believed.

Lol...notice the word "Sekume"..sounds familiar.[/QUOTE

Hotep

Why is it that it is thought that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the only one who knew about Africans pre-history? And when exactly is this birth of Africans taken place (according to the birth record you speak of),...how old is the Earth and at what point is the birth of it's Origenal Black Huemans birth taken place? Who is your G-d and ware is it? And what does it look like? How is it that any one can think they are not a part of G-d and seperate from that Great Creator of All things,...(Independent)?? Then what is the Medu Neter to you? And all of the scholers such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jachanan, Dr. Ivan Van Sertama, Dr. E.M. James, Dr. Francis Cress Welsing, Dr. Ray Hagens, Dr. Niam Akbar, Dr. Richard King, Nur Ankh Amen, Master Naba Lamoussa Morodenibig and thousand of others are "Wrong" and you are "Right"??? Then we are in deed blessed to have "You" in our presents.

Ase`

spicybrown

12-11-2005, 10:43 PM

"Like I said bro, teaching man is god and had no beginnings is strictly the teachings of Fard and Elijah.......not Africans and ancient Egyptians."

How would one then explain this "GOD" figure? As far as I know there are two main entities that exist on this planet.....man/flesh....and energy. Who is to say that GOD is not a man/woman? If God was an energy.......how on earth were flesh humans created? Mud? I highly doubt that biblical term was literal. A just God would not leave his people in confusion with all the different evolving names of geographical locations, racial tribe names, and a myraid of creation theories. People like to look down on Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah, but who else in recorded history had the ball$ to even ATTEMPT to explain our creation, answers to our downfalls, and an explanation of our mortal enemies, logically........plain& clear? I guess until a sharper mastermind outwits MFM/Elijah, I'll stick to my beliefs. I highly doubt another scholar will reveal more, since we are living in the end of the world of evil/unjust rule (end of white tyranny worldwide) JMHO:spinstar:

spicybrown

12-11-2005, 11:00 PM

Dual Karnayn: "While everybody else is working and studying to empower themselves, you'll be runnning around in the ghetto with a dirty coat on getting into fights with other fools who think they're god too.

White men come and arrest "god" and throw god's ***** in jail....lol."

See you're grabbing into the slave hot pot, insinuating that GOD is supernatural, and some neon-illuminant figure with a halo.
LMBAO@"dirty coats"!!!
Are these coats the sleeveless kind? How about with some acid-washed high water jeans with the elastic waist. A grown out fade with beady-b's all down yo neck. Face all bulky and oiled down with vaseline that yo mamma slicked on your face, a butterfly polo shirt so tight it shows yo ribs and nipples. Perhaps you're reflecting on your childhood.......runnin' around with a mayonnaise sammich on pumpernikel bread, and a cup of red Kool-Aid that spilled all over yo bread.........now it's pink.....don't that stink? Pretending you're a Negroid He-Man runnin' around with a bath towel tied around yo neck with a rubber band, and yo underoo-draws all baggy like you got a soggy diaper. Lawdy, just messin' with ya Mr. Karnayn (((HUGS)))

Dual Karnayn

12-11-2005, 11:52 PM

Moorfius

Why is it that it is thought that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the only one who knew about Africans pre-history?
I didn't say he even KNEW African pre-history, let alone was the only one.

And when exactly is this birth of Africans taken place (according to the birth record you speak of),...how old is the Earth and at what point is the birth of it's Origenal Black Huemans birth taken place?
Doesn't matter.
Human history of ALL races don't go back past 10,000 years and you have no records to prove it.

Again, this is just New Age teaching.

Who is your G-d and ware is it?
My God...and yours...is the Creator of the heavens and the Earth and I'm not sure where His physical being is but I believe He resides near the Sirius star system.

And what does it look like?
My God is not an "it", my God (and yours) is a He.

And He can't look like anybody or anything because HE was BEFORE everything.
So other things may look like HIM, not He like THEM.

How is it that any one can think they are not a part of G-d and seperate from that Great Creator of All things,...(Independent)??
Are you a part of a chicken, a fig leaf, or a piece of fly sh*t?

We are all separate entities.

Then what is the Medu Neter to you?

An ancient Egyptian book.

And all of the scholers such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jachanan, Dr. Ivan Van Sertama, Dr. E.M. James, Dr. Francis Cress Welsing, Dr. Ray Hagens, Dr. Niam Akbar, Dr. Richard King, Nur Ankh Amen and thousand of others are "Wrong" and you are "Right"???
Wrong and right about what?

Then we are in deed blessed to have "You" in our presents.
All the praise is due to Allah lord of all worlds, places, and times.

PS..I don't know about you, but my God teaches me that I should spell properly.

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 12:07 AM

Spicy

GOD Is Not The Author Of Confusion..........
No, Satan is.

So if He tells us that there is no God but Him...He wouldn't turn right around and tell us we are all little Gods running around waiting to rise up.

Wouldn't you agree?

How would one then this "GOD" figure? As far as I know there are two main entities that exist on this planet.....man/flesh....and energy.

Correct...as far as YOU know.

The body is flesh.

The spirit/life is energy.

But what is the soul?

Who is to say that GOD is not a man/woman?
The Bible, the Koran, and nearly all ancient manuscripts.

Elijah even said God was a man, not a woman.

Was Fard Muhammad a man or woman?

Were any of his or Elijah's ministers women?

If God was an energy.......how on earth were flesh humans created? Mud?

God created them.

I highly doubt that biblical term was literal.
Doubt if you will.

When you can make a man and give him life then I'll accept your theories on the creation of man.

A just God would not leave his people in confusion with all the different evolving names of geographical locations, racial tribe names, and a myraid of creation theories.
I agree.
But a fool is confused regardless of the amount of knowledge brought to them.

I can't blame God because some fool wants to believe a lie some other fool told him/her about them being God.
That's his/her fault.

People like to look down on Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah, but who else in recorded history had the ball$ to even ATTEMPT to explain our creation, answers to our downfalls, and an explanation of our mortal enemies, logically........plain& clear?
I don't know who's looking down on Fard and Elijah but to answer your question:

Muhammad
Nat Turner
Marcus Garvey
Noble Drew Ali
Martin Luther King
Malcolm X

..to name a few.

I guess until a sharper mastermind outwits MFM/Elijah, I'll stick to my beliefs. I highly doubt another scholar will reveal more, since we are living in the end of the world of evil/unjust rule (end of white tyranny worldwide) JMHO

Are you following their teachings like eating once a day, keeping covered, avoiding shrimp, alcohol and fornication?

They taught more than just believing that man is god, they also taught a strict moral code.

I ask you like I ask Moorfius.....

If you think the teachings are so great and it's the best thing going, what's stopping you from going down to the local mosque and falling in rank?

Don't just pay lip service to his teachings, put them into practice.

Practice what you preach.

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 12:38 AM

Moorfius.

I provided my evidence that there WERE INDEED records on the creation of Black men in Kemetic and other African civilizations.

That's just a start.
I could fill this forum with African records of man being created by God.

But it's kinda hard for you to prove your "negative" since you said there is no record.

Maybe you meant you LOST the records of the Black man's origins along with your other cultural norms before being snatched away to America.....and that's why YOU have no records.
But the African still has his records and they pass them down from one generation to the next.

At any rate, what do you intend to base your argument on?

spicybrown

12-12-2005, 01:02 AM

You: "So if He tells us that there is no God but Him...He wouldn't turn right around and tell us we are all little Gods running around waiting to rise up.

Wouldn't you agree?"

Me:I believe that Godhood is reached when one knows one self in whole...no loopholes. Hence the terms: Best Knower, Supreme BEING, Almighty.

There is only one thing that Africans lack and that is the knowledge of self, once this info is acquired, the sky's the limit.

You: "But what is the soul?"

Me: IMO it is ones essence-total being/emotions

You: "The Bible, the Koran, and nearly all ancient manuscripts.

Elijah even said God was a man, not a woman.

Was Fard Muhammad a man or woman?

Were any of his or Elijah's ministers women?"

Me: How far back do those teachings go? As we all know...the "Holy Bible" was altered by King James, in order to fit the mold of a patriarchal white supremacy world order.MFM was a Flesh Man. Maybe the ministers weren't women, but in the early 20th century it was common for men to take leadership positions, besides the movement was meant to benefit men mainly, since we were on the lead to put the Black family back in function-man to protect and provide, woman to nurture and be supportive. Good thing that came into play then.........look at how the system boosts BW over BM. Where would much of the esteem have come from without those ideals?

You: "Doubt if you will.

When you can make a man and give him life then I'll accept your theories on the creation of man."

Me: We do it thousands of times everyday worldwide......through ejaculation and ovulation. What came first...chicken or egg? I never claimed to know it all. If we give all power to some mystery God on being born, where within us is the power to control our lives. I refuse to relinquish my power over my life to some mystery God who is supposed to be: "Not there when you call him, but always on time"

You: "Muhammad
Nat Turner
Marcus Garvey
Noble Drew Ali
Martin Luther King
Malcolm X"

Me: O.K., you've named some outstanding pioneers in the Black struggle, from many of their beliefs I have benefitted. However:

1. Marcus Garvey had panafricanism in mind, cool, what did that proposal do for billions of Africans/Blacks in the diaspora as far as knowing themselves, and their past and where they are going.

2. Noble Drew Ali is who inspired MFM in his studies. If MFMN was a non-negro, then he was the biggest race-traitor in history.

3. Martin Luther King paved the way in order for Blacks to get their propers and treated more human-like. However he taught intergration with the very people who wished our downfall every waking moment.

4. Nat Turner led a huge slave revolt(i believe....maybe I'm confusing him with another pioneer.....excellent). So did many of others, now that we are "freed" people, why so many ills in our communities. I'm certain the Nat Turner idealogy won't work in 05'.

5. Malcolm X was a follower of Elijah Muhammad. What ever went wrong with the Brother losing his life probably will never be explained.

6. Muhammad....I don't know which "Muhammad" you are speaking of.
I never said anybody specific looked down on MFM. So many people are quick to jump down on their knees and worship some invisible mystery God who cannot seem to solve the worlds biggest problems, despite all the glory invested in him. smh, yet laugh at the fact that the Almighty can be a flesh man.

You: "Are you following their teachings like eating once a day, keeping covered, avoiding shrimp, alcohol and fornication?

They taught more than just believing that man is god, they also taught a strict moral code.

I ask you like I ask Moorfius.....

If you think the teachings are so great and it's the best thing going, what's stopping you from going down to the local mosque and falling in rank?

Don't just pay lip service to his teachings, put them into practice.

Practice what you preach"

Me: I never said I was a converted Muslim. My lifestyle, prior to acknowledging Elijah Muhammads teachings, had fallen under those ideals, to top it off with a Muslim birthname. I have never been the type to join an "organization" because I believe in the ideals, besides my life is pretty much "organized" That's the problem with Blacks.......we wear our lifestyles/religion on our sleeves, even while under attack. This is how the missionaries came into Africa and exploited in the name of God, figuring out our spiritual weaknesses/strengths.

While we're on the topic what got you to revert from the NOI teachings?

i don't knock anyone elses choice of religion, all I was doing is trying to figure out who gave a thorough breakdown of the Blacks' ancient past, our miserable present, and a hopeful glimpse into our future, along with an economic plan. And an scriptural understanding of our common enemy. I believe MFM is the greatest thing to happen to non-whites worldwide........without his calling out the whiteman being the "devil", do you honestly think we Blacks would see ourselves as anything but inferior to whites? The whole non-white majority on this planet is a firm witness to these accusations, even some poor whites.

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 01:31 AM

Spicy

I believe that Godhood is reached when one knows one self in whole...no loopholes. Hence the terms: Best Knower, Supreme BEING, Almighty.

You can BELIEVE what you will.
But that's not the definition of God.

God is the Creator of all life and existance....that's God.

Not someone who merely "knows" themselves.

Notice you said Supreme BEING....not Supreme BEING(S).

Best KNOWER....not Best KNOWWER(S)

There is only ONE individual and that ONE is supreme above all others.

There is only one thing that Africans lack and that is the knowledge of self, once this info is acquired, the sky's the limit.
Actually there are a number of things that Africans lack and one is proper leadership, and another is unity.

But Africans have a knowledge of self.

They have thier own cultures, still know their own languages, and maintain thier traditions and practices.
Only those of us in America cut of from much of our roots could be hoodwinked into believing we have no records and are really Gods who slipped and got caught up.

BTW...you ARE talking about "Africans" from the continent of Africa and not Black Americans...aren't you Spice..lol.

Because if you know the teachings of Elijah, you know neither him nor Fard taught that we were "Africans"...but Asiatics.

How far back do those teachings go? As we all know...the "Holy Bible" was altered by King James, in order to fit the mold of a patriarchal white supremacy world order.
But the TEACHINGS of Elijah Muhammad say the BLACK MAN wrote the Bible.

I thought you knew the teachings.

MFM was a Flesh Man.
But the TEACHINGS of Elijah Muhammad said Fard Muhammad was Allah in flesh.

I thought you knew the teachings.

Maybe the ministers weren't women, but in the early 20th century it was common for men to take leadership positions, besides the movement was meant to benefit men mainly, since we were on the lead to put the Black family back in function-man to protect and provide, woman to nurture and be supportive. Good thing that came into play then.........look at how the system boosts BW over BM.
So did "God" change his mind and decide that it's alright now for women to be seen as gods and ministers?
If not, why do you still support them if you don't agree with it?

We do it thousands of times everyday worldwide......through ejaculation and ovulation. What came first...chicken or egg? I never claimed to know it all. If we give all power to some mystery God on being born, where within us is the power to control our lives. I refuse to relinquish my power over my life to some mystery God who is supposed to be: "Not there when you call him, but always on time"
WE didn't create man or the universe.

GOD (singular) did it...and He did it by Himself.

HE didn't have to go to the club and seduce a lover to make a baby.
He created the universe from NOTHING.

That's what "create" mean....to bring into existance something from nothing.

We don't CREATE babies, we MAKE babies.

God CREATES, and humans MAKE.

God is not a mystery in my life, I have the proper understanding.

O.K., you've named some outstanding pioneers in the Black struggle, from many of their beliefs I have benefitted. However:

Marcus Garvey had panafricanism in mind, cool, what did that proposal do for billions of Africans/Blacks in the diaspora as far as knowing themselves, and their past and where they are going.

Noble Drew Ali is who inspired MFM in his studies. If MFMN was a non-negro, then he was the biggest race-traitor in history.

Martin Luther King paved the way in order for Blacks to get their propers and treated more human-like. However he taught intergration with the very people who wished our downfall every waking moment.

Nat Turner led a huge slave revolt(i believe....maybe I'm confusing him with another pioneer.....excellent). So did many of others, now that we are "freed" people, why so many ills in our communities. I'm certain the Nat Turner idealogy won't work in 05'.

Malcolm X was a follower of Elijah Muhammad. What ever went wrong with the Brother losing his life probably will never be explained.
Thanx for that information.

But you asked me:

"but who else in recorded history had the ball$ to even ATTEMPT to explain our creation, answers to our downfalls, and an explanation of our mortal enemies, logically........plain& clear? "

And I told you these men did this also, so it's nothing new or unique.

Moving along.........

I don't know which "Muhammad" you are speaking of.
I never said anybody specifically looked down on MFM. So many people are quick to jump down on their knees and worship some invisible mystery God who cannot seem to solve the worlds biggest problems, despite all the glory invested in him. smh

Ah...but Spicey lady you just said:

"People like to look down on Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah, but..."

Apparently you are confused about your own words.
And since we know GOD is not that author of confusion-

Perhaps....just perhaps....

I never said I was a converted Muslim. My lifestyle, prior to acknowledging Elijah Muhammads teachings, had fallen under those ideals, to top it off with a Muslim birthname. I have never been the type to join an "organization" because I believe in the ideals, besides my life is pretty much "organized" That's the problem with Blacks.......we wear our lifestyles/religion on our sleeves, even while under attack. This is how the missionaries came into Africa and exploited in the name of God, figuring out our spiritual weaknesses/strengths.
So in other words, when it comes to the teachings of Fard and Elijah you got their "back".....waaaaay back..lol.

Seems to me you don't want to make a commitment to the teachings you claim to hold so dear.

You like the part about being a "god(dess)" but when it comes to actually implimenting the methods and observing the strict practices they commanded of their followers...you do an about-face.

Say: "Well...hee hee hee...I ain't wit all dat jive..."

Suit yourself. ((shruggs shoulders))

While we're on the topic what got you to revert from the NOI teachings?

I found out that I wasn't God....the hard way.

Plus, I couldn't accept the teaching that there was no life after physical death.
Too much evidence pointed to the contrary.

The TEACHINGS also say that earthquakes are caused by the Son of Man experimenting with high-explosives.
Do you believe this?

i don't knock anyone elses choice of religion, all I was doing is trying to figure out who gave a thorough breakdown of the Blacks' ancient past, our miserable present, and a hopeful glimpse into our future, along with an economic plan.
Just remember that all that glitters ain't gold.

Many of these groups have been around since the 20s and 30s preaching that the Black man is god and need to unite and save our money, yet the Black community is in even worse condition morally and economically today than we were back then.

Meanwhile Arabs, Indians, Somalis, Nigerians, Koreans, and all these other groups who DON'T believe they're god and many don't even believe in religion period can come over and do in 20 years what we couldn't do in our 400 years in this country.
They build businesses, settle families, build hospitals, build schools, resturants, grocery stores, doctors, nurses....and still have enough money left over to send back home and build their own-nations.

But we're "God"?

Our problem is a crisis of morals and leadership and that's holding us back, not our religious beliefs.

spicybrown

12-12-2005, 03:02 AM

You: "You can BELIEVE what you will.
But that's not the definition of God"

Me: O.K., then what is. That was my educated guess.

You: "But Africans have a knowledge of self.

They have thier own cultures, still know their own languages, and maintain thier traditions and practices.
Only those of us in America cut of from much of our roots could be hoodwinked into believing we have no records and are really Gods who slipped and got caught up."

Me: With all of this soul-connection, why do they have Fanta faces, and cola bodies-Bleached skin. Africa was becoming Christianized before the new America was even established. You don't think the thousands of "missionaries" have/had any effect whatsoever on the psyche of West Africans, them being the total epitomy of Africaness(blackest)?

You: "But the TEACHINGS of Elijah Muhammad say the BLACK MAN wrote the Bible.

I thought you knew the teachings."

Me: And an energy configuration did?!?!?!? I never said the bible was written in 1600's when KJ altered it. The current KJ version of the bible stretches some 6,000 years back. During this era, many others races hadn't come into existence yet. All minorities have some strain of Black/Original blood slithering through their veins. Of course the bible was recorded. Did a Mexican do it? A caveman/whiteman didn't do it...they were in caves. According tothe teaching, and the laws of nature, any non-black can be classified as Black...to an extent, just a less melinated Black. Indeed Blackmen recorded the bible, which is a compilation of premonitions, dreams, and predictions, along with tales from outstanding people of that time. "Black Man" merely means Black men wrote/recorded the scripture, not necessarily ONE Black man. If not, then I one can assume that "Message to the Blackman" was dedicated to ONE Black man.(Kinda sounds like the preacher talking, and one person taking what he says to heart)........LOL

You: "But the TEACHINGS of Elijah Muhammad said Fard Muhammad was Allah in flesh.

I thought you knew the teachings."

Me: *crickets chirping*..............Imagine a bunch of hocus-pocus superstituous brainwashed Black folk receiving for the first time that God is man/flesh. Why would MFM deliberately contradict himself, by saying he was God in flesh without the intent trying to undo the mind of a torn and shattered people by saying he was Allah in the flesh. You can't suddenly tell a child that Santa doesn't exist after years of propoganda shoved in his face. How would that child ever truly respect mom&pops? I never said I was a master of the teachings. I know what I know.

You: "So did "God" change his mind and decide that it's alright now for women to be seen as gods and ministers?
If not, why do you still support them if you don't agree with it?"

Me: Beats the hack outta me if he did. MFM had actually "disappeared" in 1942, and left Elijah Muhammad to take over as leader. I never said I didn't agree with there not having been any women as ministrers, I'm sure they have them now. I am secure enough in my womanhood, whereas I wouldn't feel the need to jump in the lime-light to declare "I'm every woman", then or now.

You: "WE didn't create man or the universe.

GOD (singular) did it...and He did it by Himself"

Me: Oh really? How can an energy configuration/spook create a flesh man? Mud? I'd like to see this scientifically proven. If we were made in his image, wouldn't that make him some sort of a male figure. Or am I hallucinating when I see my flesh reflection when I look into the mirror? Enlighten me, and school me on this non human/flesh God that I must submit to or else go to a mythological h3ll. Perhaps you may have more insight than "ALLAH in the Flesh".......LMBAO

You: "Ah...but Spicey lady you just said:

"People like to look down on Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah, but..."

Apparently you are confused about your own words.
And since we know GOD is not that author of confusion-

Perhaps....just perhaps...."

Me: People in general seem to deny the fact that this God we all know can possibly be a man.....Even though most ancient and modern srciptures describe as having walked talked, ate, disciplined, went to war with SATAN, as far as I'm concerned, spooks don't need food, they have no body to nourish..........spirits float, don't they? (too much T.V.) If I were Eve in the Garden of Eden, and a spooky mo-fo came and told me to bounce just for being hard-headed, and I couldn't see him, I'd put^ my dukes, and both me & my ni@@a would fight like some Crips&Bloods........LOL

You: "Seems to me you don't want to make a commitment to the teachings you claim to hold so dear.

You like the part about being a "god(dess)" but when it comes to actually implimenting the methods and observing the strict practices they commanded of their followers...you do an about-face."

Me: Committment is in action....vs. gaining a sworn in-written membership. Who's to say I don't/didn't already lead that lifestyle. I don't need to pick&choose what feels good in life. Being that Louis Farrakhan is now the spokesman for NOI..........who would want to?

You: "Plus, I couldn't accept the teaching that there was no life after physical death.
Too much evidence pointed to the contrary.

The TEACHINGS also say that earthquakes are caused by the Son of Man experimenting with high-explosives.
Do you believe this?"

Me: What evidence points to a life after physical death? Perhaps your Dual personality has one foot in h3ll, and the other foot here.....LOL

Unless you're testing my mind I'll have you know that the teachings say mountains are raised by explosives. I guess that ni@@as in outer space is too much for peeps to fathom.:martian:

You: "Many of these groups have been around since the 20s and 30s preaching that the Black man is god and need to unite and save our money, yet the Black community is in even worse condition morally and economically today than we were back then."

Me: This is partially because Black people were not united enough to follow en masse these teachings. Why is it that Blacks can have a WHITE financial consultant, a WHITE therapist, even a WHITE spiritual advisor, and skip along in life just fine..........soon as a Black person takes these stances eyebrows suddenly go up. Sounds a lot like the Bamboozling of The Negro that MFM/Elijah spoke on.

You: "Meanwhile Arabs, Indians, Somalis, Nigerians, Koreans, and all these other groups who DON'T believe they're god and many don't even believe in religion period can come over and do in 20 years what we couldn't do in our 400 years in this country.
They build businesses, settle families, build hospitals, build schools, resturants, grocery stores, doctors, nurses....and still have enough money left over to send back home and build their own-nations.

But we're "God"?"

Me: I bet if more of them would/would've regarded themselves a gods, there would not be/been so much strife from the Europeans *slight exception with the Arabs*. Have you ever watched "ROOTS". There was one flick where one captured slave on a boat advised that they prey to GOD, Another older wiser slave said: "We don't need no GOD, we are Gods!" How will we know for sure.

As for other races prospering........are you saying WE are innately inferior, or is there some spook in h3ll giving us trouble. As quick as Blacks organize for betterment, rest assured, the COINTELPRO will be their first patron. These "other" people also have a better esteem, as far as culture goes., Many Blacks get discouraged along the way, knowing that we don't have a homeland to send our earnings back to. Going to work for whites, laws by whites, and surounded by whites is enough to make a conscious BP snap. A lot of these immigrants get preferential treatment from U.S. America knows if these immigrants run back home complaining about denial to opportunity, these same nations may cut ties with her.- allies, trading, labor, etc.

We can go on&on with this, but the fact remains NOI teachings suit me fine, to each his own.

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 07:38 PM

Spicy

Lol....I saw you hanging around the forum last night waiting for me to log off so you could drop the last post!

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 08:21 PM

Spicy

O.K., then what is. That was my educated guess.

Now did you always believe that God is someone who has come into the knowledge of themselves?

Or did you ORIGINALLY believe God was the Creator of the universe like me and someone changed your mind and told you that God was a person with deep knowledge?

That's the concern I have.

With all of this soul-connection, why do they have Fanta faces, and cola bodies-Bleached skin. Africa was becoming Christianized before the new America was even established. You don't think the thousands of "missionaries" have/had any effect whatsoever on the psyche of West Africans, them being the total epitomy of Africaness(blackest)?
Come on sis, Africans believe in a spirit world and life after death loooooong before Christianity, Islam, or any other religion was introduced to them.
Many venerated and held ceremonies for their dead ancestors who they believe still existed in spirit form.
This is proof they believed in life after physical death.

And an energy configuration did?!?!?!?
No.
I'm saying neither God nor Black men wrote the Bible.

White Europeans wrote and put together most of it.

I never said the bible was written in 1600's when KJ altered it. The current KJ version of the bible stretches some 6,000 years back. During this era, many others races hadn't come into existence yet. All minorities have some strain of Black/Original blood slithering through their veins. Of course the bible was recorded. Did a Mexican do it? A caveman/whiteman didn't do it...they were in caves. According tothe teaching, and the laws of nature, any non-black can be classified as Black...to an extent, just a less melinated Black.

Not necessarily.
The teachings of Elijah Muhammad clearly made a distinction between white caucasians and Black people.
White caucasians are the ones who put most of the Bible together in Europe (Rome) before the rest of the world even knew what it was.

Much of the material that came from the Middle East was altered, and some were developed in Europe all together.

Indeed Blackmen recorded the bible, which is a compilation of premonitions, dreams, and predictions, along with tales from outstanding people of that time. "Black Man" merely means Black men wrote/recorded the scripture, not necessarily ONE Black man. If not, then I one can assume that "Message to the Blackman" was dedicated to ONE Black man.(Kinda sounds like the preacher talking, and one person taking what he says to heart)........LOL
I'm saying the fact is neither a Black man OR Black men together wrote the Bible.
The first Bible was put together in Rome in 325 AD, but the one currently most used was edited in England in 1611.

crickets chirping*..............Imagine a bunch of hocus-pocus superstituous brainwashed Black folk receiving for the first time that God is man/flesh. Why would MFM deliberately contradict himself, by saying he was God in flesh without the intent trying to undo the mind of a torn and shattered people by saying he was Allah in the flesh. You can't suddenly tell a child that Santa doesn't exist after years of propoganda shoved in his face. How would that child ever truly respect mom&pops? I never said I was a master of the teachings. I know what I know.
First of all, if you study the teachings Fard Muhammad never called himself God.
He was refered to as a prophet and savior in his own work.

Elijah Muhammad began calling him God and God in person.

But truth is truth and it doesn't change or contradict itself.

Beats the hack outta me if he did. MFM had actually "disappeared" in 1942, and left Elijah Muhammad to take over as leader. I never said I didn't agree with there not having been any women as ministrers, I'm sure they have them now. I am secure enough in my womanhood, whereas I wouldn't feel the need to jump in the lime-light to declare "I'm every woman", then or now.
I thought Fard disappeared sometime back in the 1930s but regardless of the date.
My point was why do you support so much of the teachings when obviously you have a problem with it being a patriarchal institution?

Oh really? How can an energy configuration/spook create a flesh man?

I don't know what a "spook" is.
I've heard some of the older folks use the term but I'm not sure what it is.
Nor do I understand how God created man...because I'm not God.
I just know we had a Creator because we ARE HERE, so obviously He did it some way.

Mud? I'd like to see this scientifically proven.
Lol..the fact that we turn back to mud and dirt when we die is proof that we came from mud.

The KORAN says that man is made from mud.
How can you agree with the teachings but disagree with the Koran on this issue?

If we were made in his image, wouldn't that make him some sort of a male figure. Or am I hallucinating when I see my flesh reflection when I look into the mirror?
The Koran doesn't say we were made in God's image, the Bible does.

Enlighten me, and school me on this non human/flesh God that I must submit to or else go to a mythological h3ll. Perhaps you may have more insight than "ALLAH in the Flesh".......LMBAO
He's the creator of the universe and can do whatever He wants so you should follow His commandments and serve Him.

Show me the man you believe is God and let's see what he can do to or for me.

Do you know ONE MAN who can even stop keep the sun still in the sky or make it appear to be standing still?

Do you know ONE MAN who can even create a sun or moon?

People in general seem to deny the fact that this God we all know can possibly be a man.....Even though most ancient and modern srciptures describe as having walked talked, ate, disciplined, went to war with SATAN, as far as I'm concerned, spooks don't need food, they have no body to nourish..........
Actually, the Bible is the only ancient scripture that describes God as an actual human man.

Others describe Him as outside of humanity.

MODERN scripture certainly describes God as a human because it's part of the deception of the New Age movement to stir man from the true God.

spirits float, don't they? (too much T.V.) If I were Eve in the Garden of Eden, and a spooky mo-fo came and told me to bounce just for being hard-headed, and I couldn't see him, I'd put^ my dukes, and both me & my ni@@a would fight like some Crips&Bloods........LOL
Not with a God who can shoot bolts of lightning at that ***** and or send a swarm of killer bees at you and him...lol.

Committment is in action....vs. gaining a sworn in-written membership. Who's to say I don't/didn't already lead that lifestyle. I don't need to pick&choose what feels good in life. Being that Louis Farrakhan is now the spokesman for NOI..........who would want to?
So do you eat once a day?
Avoid catfish, corn bread, and shrimp?
Avoid adultery and fornication?

What evidence points to a life after physical death? Perhaps your Dual personality has one foot in h3ll, and the other foot here.....LOL
No, I don't think so.
The fact that so many people around the world who have died and came back to tell about what's on the other side is evidence.

Perhaps the fact that so many people have contacted and regularly communicate with relatives who have died is evidence that there is life after death.

Even the fact that the vast majority of people all over the world have always believed in life after death unquestionably is evidence.

The one who first started raising doubts about this were white atheists in the West.

Unless you're testing my mind I'll have you know that the teachings say mountains are raised by explosives. I guess that ni@@as in outer space is too much for peeps to fathom.
I thought the only place in this universe "n*ggas" existed was in the Americas and where white racists took Black people and made them "n*ggas".

This is partially because Black people were not united enough to follow en masse these teachings. Why is it that Blacks can have a WHITE financial consultant, a WHITE therapist, even a WHITE spiritual advisor, and skip along in life just fine..........soon as a Black person takes these stances eyebrows suddenly go up. Sounds a lot like the Bamboozling of The Negro that MFM/Elijah spoke on.
There are plenty of Black leaders and ministers in the Black church and other institutions....but they are divided even against EACHOTHER.
The Nation of Islam was divided against eachother after Fard left Detroit and Elijah had to flee for his life and go to Chicago.
The Nation of Islam became divided again after Elijah died and his son took over.

The UNIA movement by Marcus Garvey was the most successful organization for uniting Black people America has ever seen but it didn't last very long.

I bet if more of them would/would've regarded themselves a gods, there would not be/been so much strife from the Europeans *slight exception with the Arabs*. Have you ever watched "ROOTS". There was one flick where one captured slave on a boat advised that they prey to GOD, Another older wiser slave said: "We don't need no GOD, we are Gods!" How will we know for sure.

That was just a movie as true Africans know that they aren't God or even "gods".
They make that clear distinction and that was one of my points to Moorfius.

As for other races prospering........are you saying WE are innately inferior, or is there some spook in h3ll giving us trouble.
I didn't say that.
I gave you the reasons for why we aren't prospering.

If you believe we are gods to begin with then we were white people ever able to rule us in the first place?

That responsibility has to fall back on YOU...not me...because I don't believe we are gods but human beings like everyone else.
And we will have to accept the same responsibilities and play by the same rules as everyone else if we want to prosper.

Can't wait on any flying saucers to swoop down and save us, we have to do it ourselves.

If we are waiting on Homeboys from outer-space of some other entities outside of ourselves to swoop down and save us from white racism, we might as well stay keep on believing in a Mystery God...right?

If you say Allah is gonna destroy America with the Mother Plane, unless you can show me those Black men on the ship....wouldn't that be a Mystery God?

spicybrown

12-12-2005, 08:51 PM

Spicy

Lol....I saw you hanging around the forum last night waiting for me to log off so you could drop the last post!

Oh really, does this mean you are :idea: e-stalking me?LOL. Sorry, I don't wait around like a gargoyle for petty rebutted posts. I was probably on another topic or on a whole different website. You know.....:rolleyes: I do have a life outside of Destee.

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 09:00 PM

Spicy

Oh really, does this mean you are e-stalking me?LOL. Sorry, I don't wait around like a gargoyle for petty rebutted posts. I was probably on another topic or on a whole different website. You know..... I do have a life outside of Destee
No, you were IN THE RELIGIOUS FORUM for over an hour just sitting like a spider saying nothing.

You had time to respond but didn't post anything until you were sure I was clear out of the way.

spicybrown

12-12-2005, 10:32 PM

Spicy

No, you were IN THE RELIGIOUS FORUM for over an hour just sitting like a spider saying nothing.

You had time to respond but didn't post anything until you were sure I was clear out of the way.

Don't flatter yourself, obviously you were sitting there as long as I was. I take time to post. Being that you are not a premium member, how can you stay maddddd on my trail?:rolleyes: Just because I appeared to be there, doesn't mean that I was at my PC at the moment. I better be careful, you probably installed a spycam into my PC, unbeknownst to me. Lemme guess, you logged out, and came back in as a guest just, just to spy...LMAO. Stil all good tho:look:

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 10:44 PM

Spicy

Don't flatter yourself, obviously you were sitting there as long as I was. I take time to post. Being that you are not a premium member, how can you stay maddddd on my trail? Just because I appeared to be there, doesn't mean that I was at my PC at the moment. I better be careful, you probably installed a spycam into my PC, unbeknownst to me. Lemme guess, you logged out, and came back in as a guest just, just to spy...LMAO. Stil all good tho
You best believe......

Not only do I know what you did last summer, but I know what you were doing LAST NIGHT while your computer was idle and you weren't posting.

I have to confess.
When you got up, and turned to walk away from your PC it was THEN I realized why you called "Spicy Brown"...lol.

:lips: If it were up to me....I might rename you "Breaded and Fried Cat-fish"

Aqil

12-12-2005, 11:15 PM

spicybrown

12-12-2005, 11:18 PM

Spicy

You best believe......

Not only do I know what you did last summer, but I know what you were doing LAST NIGHT while your computer was idle and you weren't posting.

I have to confess.
When you got up, and turned to walk away from your PC it was THEN I realized why you called "Spicy Brown"...lol.

:lips: If it were up to me....I might rename you "Breaded and Fried Cat-fish"

OK now, Dually, you better close that gap in yo blinds, and make sure yo t.v. ain't watchin you...LOL:huh:

Dual Karnayn

12-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Spicy

OK now, Dually, you better close that gap....in yo blinds, and make sure yo t.v. ain't watchin you...LOL
Lol, I was getting ready to tell you to do the same thing.

Me and my "spycam"...

:lips: You see, I don't follow the teachings of Elijah so I can talk like that.

info-moetry

12-13-2005, 01:35 PM

Spicy

You best believe......

Not only do I know what you did last summer, but I know what you were doing LAST NIGHT while your computer was idle and you weren't posting.

I have to confess.
When you got up, and turned to walk away from your PC it was THEN I realized why you called "Spicy Brown"...lol.

:lips: If it were up to me....I might rename you "Breaded and Fried Cat-fish"

peace,

Brother, please refrain from the name calling that I have seen you doing as of late too a couple of members who do agree with you at times............

Not only is it a violation of the rules here at Destee.com, but it is also Un-Islaamic!!

I humbly leave you in peace.......

Dual Karnayn

12-13-2005, 01:42 PM

Info

Did I call someone out of thier name?

info-moetry

12-13-2005, 01:44 PM

Brother Dual,

Plus, I couldn't accept the teaching that there was no life after physical death.Too much evidence pointed to the contrary. - can you please expound a little further for me on this "evidence" in relation too the difference between NOI and "the religion of Islaam"...

what evidence do you have of proof of life after death in the Religion as oppossed too others who say when you die, yo die?

peace

Dual Karnayn

12-13-2005, 01:52 PM

Info

- can you please expound a little further for me on this "evidence" in relation too the difference between NOI and "the religion of Islaam"...
Simple.

The teaching of Fard and Elijah Muhammad say there is no life after physical death.
Who am I to say they're wrong and I haven't died yet?

All I know is orthodox Islam says there is and that our bodies will be resurrected, the Koran says this.

I believe this.

what evidence do you have of proof of life after death in the Religion as oppossed too others who say when you die, yo die?
Well most poeple don't say this execpt a very few like some who believe in the NOI teachings and atheists.

The vast majority of others believe and understand there is life after physical death.

Infact, many if not most people over the age of 20 have had spiritual experiences they believed to be deceased loved ones who have communicated with them either in visual form or in dreams.

The evidence is out there, you can either accept it or reject it.

Dual Karnayn

12-13-2005, 02:24 PM

Info

Did you intend to say calling someone a name is un-Islamic?

info-moetry

12-13-2005, 08:34 PM

Info

Did I call someone out of thier name?

If it were up to me....I might rename you "Breaded and Fried Cat-fish"- in this thread you may have meant it as a joke, but you can't just assume others will take it that way. Especially after just accusing sister of sitting around with her pc on and not posting anything, then making the above comment......

Let us keep it on an intellectual level brother and use each others preferred names.........

peace

info-moetry

12-13-2005, 08:39 PM

Info

Simple.

The teaching of Fard and Elijah Muhammad say there is no life after physical death.
Who am I to say they're wrong and I haven't died yet?

All I know is orthodox Islam says there is and that our bodies will be resurrected, the Koran says this.

I believe this.

Well most poeple don't say this execpt a very few like some who believe in the NOI teachings and atheists.

The vast majority of others believe and understand there is life after physical death.

Infact, many if not most people over the age of 20 have had spiritual experiences they believed to be deceased loved ones who have communicated with them either in visual form or in dreams.

The evidence is out there, you can either accept it or reject it.

peace......

Who am I to say they're wrong and I haven't died yet?True brother, but why so definite with this answer??

and not with...........

Well most poeple don't say this execpt a very few like some who believe in the NOI teachings and atheists.

The vast majority of others believe and understand there is life after physical death.- this sounds as if you are hoping it is true..........

The evidence is out there, you can either accept it or reject it- true indeed brother, that is why I asked you too expound....you sounded so definite talking too our sister that I thought you would not mind providing some proof!!

but I will keep looking for that evidence..............

peace

info-moetry

12-13-2005, 08:41 PM

Info

Did you intend to say calling someone a name is un-Islamic?

no sir, you called someone a name in another thread and left that alone, but I see it again so I just wanted too advise you of the "no name calling rule"....

you can find the name as you know in the above reply too you..........during your conversation in this thread with sister spicy........

peace

Dual Karnayn

12-13-2005, 08:49 PM

Infomoetry

in this thread you may have meant it as a joke, but you can't just assume others will take it that way. Especially after just accusing sister of sitting around with her pc on and not posting anything, then making the above comment......

Let us keep it on an intellectual level brother and use each others preferred names.........
Excuse me brother Infomoetry, but did I call somebody out of their name?

I believe that was my original question.

True brother, but why so definite with this answer??

and not with...........
Because it's true.

this sounds as if you are hoping it is true..........
You are correct in your understanding.

Not only do I hope it's true, but I'm praying for it to be true.

But I haven't been on this Earth even 30 years, so apparently the billions of people who have come and gone through out history who believed strongly in an after-life share the same hopes as me.

- true indeed brother, that is why I asked you too expound....you sounded so definite talking too our sister that I thought you would not mind providing some proof!!

but I will keep looking for that evidence..............

Since you aren't sure yourself, I hope Allah guides you on the RIGHT path in your search.
((smile))

no sir, you called someone a name in another thread and left that alone, but I see it again so I just wanted too advise you of the "no name calling rule"....

you can find the name as you know in the above reply too you..........during your conversation in this thread with sister spicy........
Sir, did you say calling someone out of their name was UN-ISLAMIC?

That was my original question to you.

Also, are you a Muslim?

Dual Karnayn

12-14-2005, 01:30 PM

:nightowl:

Dual Karnayn

12-14-2005, 02:11 PM

Omowale

Why would someone who does not follow the teachings of MFM have the audacity to question someone else on those exact teachings?
That MAY be a good question for ANOTHER discussion, but right now the fact is you ACCUSED me of being a follower of MFM's teachings when it was clear that I wasn't.
You said:

"The problem I am having here is this is a man who claims to be Muslim, claims to follow the teachings of MFM yet "

http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38756&page=3

So what now....are you an ENEMY?

Your soul purpose now is to run around "exposing" me for who or whatever you think I am?

It's obvious you're LOOKING for fault......
But my question is, when you can't find what you're looking for will everything be alright or will you still remain hostile and suspicious?

The actions of some of the "brothers" in this thread reminds me of that of a racist police officer LOOKING for probable cause or anything they can use even when there is no reason.

Dual Karnayn

12-14-2005, 03:35 PM

Omowale

The actions of ONE "brother" in this thread and others reminds me of a racist police informant and agent provocateur looking to discredit and defame the leaders of the Black Revolution using divide and conquer tricknology.
Like somebody esle had to TELL you on another thread.......

The enemy can't USE you if you're not USABLE.

YOU'RE the one who keeps running around here bragging about your past gang involvement, knowledge, and activity.

YOU are the one claiming to know everybody and where they came from.

So if YOU end up getting "caught up" by the fuzz then it's YOUR own fault.

Don't blame any "agent provocateur" for PROVOKING you to something you volutarily did on your own.

If one does not believe the teaching how can one instruct others?

Moorfius asked me a question, I gave him an answer.

He didn't like the fact that I could DEFEND myself against his jive so he dropped out the debate all together and other's had to take his place.

He said there was NO record of our creation, I showed there was.
Did people come in to side with me...or did they ignore the facts that I brought just to finished HIS argument?

Dual Karnayn

12-14-2005, 03:55 PM

Omowale

The post above is a classic example of how the "trickster" employs diversionary tactics and focuses on projecting his demonology upon others who he claims to be avoiding or "not responding to". This requires constant vigilance against this self-proclaimed OPEN ENEMY.
The ONLY one up in here using "diversionary tactics" is YOU.

This thread was about the difference between the religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam.

YOU are the one who tried to "trap" me by first accusing me of following the teachings of Master Fard Muhammad.

When you found out how wrong you were, did you apologize or just drop it?

No.

Instead YOU went on to criticize me on the "audacity" of questioning someone on teachings that I didn't follow.

Since that didn't work.

Now YOU are trying to accuse someone of being "agent provocateur" and what not.

Who first came in this thread YOU or ME?

So if I was here already doing my thang and YOU CAME IN trying to thump...don't accuse ME of trying to provoke a godd*mn thang!

info-moetry

12-14-2005, 08:46 PM

Infomoetry

Excuse me brother Infomoetry, but did I call somebody out of their name?

I believe that was my original question.

Because it's true.

You are correct in your understanding.

Not only do I hope it's true, but I'm praying for it to be true.

But I haven't been on this Earth even 30 years, so apparently the billions of people who have come and gone through out history who believed strongly in an after-life share the same hopes as me.

-

Since you aren't sure yourself, I hope Allah guides you on the RIGHT path in your search.
((smile))

Sir, did you say calling someone out of their name was UN-ISLAMIC?

That was my original question to you.

Also, are you a Muslim?

peace,

brother, are you sure you want too do this?

I never said I was not sure, you Assumed that and put words into my mouth!!!!!!

But I haven't been on this Earth even 30 years, so apparently the billions of people who have come and gone through out history who believed strongly in an after-life share the same hopes as me.-what if they are wrong?

as for the other questions, I answered them already so let us move on...........

Also, are you a Muslim?[/- I'm your brother..........

omowalejabali

12-15-2005, 09:44 AM

Dual Karnayn

12-15-2005, 03:46 PM

Infomoetry

peace,

brother, are you sure you want too do this?

I never said I was not sure, you Assumed that and put words into my mouth!!!!!!
Do you believe or know there is no conciousness after physical death?

-what if they are wrong?

Then they'll never know it...lol.

I'm your brother.

MY brutha!

omowalejabali

12-16-2005, 02:18 AM

Aqil

03-11-2006, 08:59 AM

Shokran aqi...

Ma Salaam.

Aqil

03-15-2006, 08:25 AM

The name “Master W. D. Fard Muhammad” is a corrupt form of the Arabic name “Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad.” Very few Black people had knowledge of the Arabic language in this country in the 1930s, thus the name “Wallace” was used instead of “Warithudin,” which was difficult to pronounce. And “Deen” was used as a sort of middle name. (The Arabic word “din” is pronounced “deen,” and it means “religion.”

The word “Warith” is an attribute of Allah (swt), and it translates “the inheritor.” The word “Fard” is pronounced “farad,” and it means,”obligatory” or “obligated.” Thus the name “Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad” translates, “the inheritor of the religion who is obligated to the Praised One.”

spicybrown

03-15-2006, 05:31 PM

"“the inheritor of the religion who is obligated to the Praised One.”"

So you're implying that according to his name-he is not Allah in the flesh, as Elijah Muhammad taught?

Aqil

03-15-2006, 09:17 PM

I'm not implying anything...

MississippiRed

03-15-2006, 11:13 PM

When I was a younger man I started wanting to learn more about the NOI and as such read Message to the Black Man.........that ended me wanting to know more about the NOI.............some of the stuff in there was just Buck..........

Red

spicybrown

03-17-2006, 04:25 AM

I'm not implying anything...

No offense, but your breakdown of his true name contradicts what others claimed him to be. If he was supposedly Allah in the flesh, then who is the "praised one" he is obligated to? Was the praisedone Elijah Muhammad? If so, that is closure:love:

Aqil

03-17-2006, 06:45 AM

The name "Muhammad" means "the praised one" in Arabic, being a verbal noun from the root, hmd, "to praise." The Hebrew name "Elijah" (Ilyas in Arabic) means, "my God is Lord." Thusly, the name "Elijah Muhammad," or Ilyas Muhammad, translates, "My God is Lord, the praised one."

spicybrown

03-17-2006, 07:17 AM

No, the name correct/definition of Fard Muhammad's name:

"Thus the name “Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad” translates, “the inheritor of the religion who is obligated to the Praised One"

Not Elijah Muhammad's:

" the name "Elijah Muhammad," or Ilyas Muhammad, translates, "My God is Lord, the praised one."

I do respect your mind Brother Aqil;). You captivate my mind on these matters.

solomon7

03-17-2006, 10:24 PM

Salaam,

Please, explain...

055.027
YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

PICKTHAL: There remaineth but the Countenance of thy Lord of Might and Glory.

SHAKIR: And there will endure for ever the person of your Lord, the Lord of glory and honor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

person
SYLLABICATION: per·son
PRONUNCIATION: pûrsn
NOUN: 1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson. 2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.... “Well, in her person, I say I will not have you” (Shakespeare).

Quick definitions (countenance)

noun: the appearance conveyed by a person's face (Example: "A pleasant countenance")
noun: the human face (`kisser' and `smiler' and `mug' are informal terms for `face' and `phiz' is British)

If you take one step towards Him, He runs 2 you!

solomon7

03-17-2006, 10:32 PM

Salaam,

Who believes Prophet Muhammad(saw) was the last "messenger" of Allah?

If "yes", why?

Aqil

03-18-2006, 02:41 AM

Salaam aqi:

The verse you proferred in your first post from the various translations of the Qu'ran (Sura Al-Rahman, ayah 28) is the second part of the ayah. When read in conjunction with the first part - and the following ayah - we get a clearer picture. It reads as follows:

"All that is on Earth will pass away, and there will abide forever only the Person of thy Lord, Master of Glory and Honor. What then, of the favors of your Lord will ye twain deny?" (Sura 55, ayat 27-29)

The Arabic word that describes the words "person," "face" and "countenance" is wajh, meaning that which is under one's care, or, "to which one directs one's attention; the thing itself; countenance and favor. Since the Earth will be reduced to nothing and Heavenly bodies all brought to naught and the whole material Universe made non-existent, still human reason demands that there should be a Being Who would never die nor be subject to change or decay. Such a Being is God, Who created the whole Universe, and Who is The First and Final Cause of all things.

The present and previous verses point to two immutable laws of nature that work simultaneously - (1) everything is subject to decline, decadence and death; and (2) compliance with Divine Laws ensures continuity of life. Prophet Muhammad (saw) is reported to have said that when this verse is recited, the believers present should respond by uttering the words: "None of Thy favors, Our Lord, do we deny and for Thee is all praise." (Kathir)

Aqil

03-18-2006, 03:21 AM

Salaam,

Who believes Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the last "messenger" of Allah?The majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world do. A man joins the fold of Islam by honestly believing in and professing faith in the oneness of God and the prophethood of Muhammad. Both of these beliefs are epitomized in the kalimah (the article of faith):

La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul Allah. (There is no god except Allah; Muhammad is His Prophet.)

The first part of the kalimah presents the concept of tawhid (the oneness of God) and its second part affirms the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). The second part of the kalimah signifies that God has not left man without any guidance for the conduct of his life. He has revealed His guidance through His prophets, and Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet.

To believe in a prophet means to believe in the revelation that he has received, to accept the law that was transmitted to him by God, and to follow the code of conduct that he was instructed to pass on to humanity. Thus the second basic postulate of Islam is to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad (saw); to accept the religion that he presented, and to follow his commands and his example.

According to the Qur'an, every prophet of God strove to build man's relationship with God on the principle of His sovereignty and the individual's acknowledgment of the authority of the Prophet as a source of divine guidance. Every one of them said: "I am to you God's apostle, worthy of all trust. So be committed to God, heed Him, and obey me."

The guidance is revealed through the prophets. It is a part of their mission to translate it into practice in their own lives and in the society they try to reform. All of the prophets are representatives of God, but they are human beings and their lives are models for mankind. Muhammad, since he was the last prophet, is the final model for mankind. To believe in him as a prophet of God means to accept his authority as representative of the Supreme Ruler and to follow his example in thought and behavior. The code of behavior, the standard that determines rightness or otherwise of any particular thing, was revealed to the Prophet and is known as the Shari'ah. Belief in the Prophet involves acceptance of the Shari'ah and the attempt to implement it in all matters of daily life. This is how the will of God is fulfilled on earth. The Qur'an says:

"We have not sent any Messenger but that he was to be obeyed with God's permission." (4:64)

And about the Prophet, it is explicitly stated that:

"Yet by your Lord, they will never believe until they make you a judge concerning what they are disputing among themselves; then they will find no inconvenience for themselves concerning whatever you have decided and submit completely." (4:65)

The test of one's acceptance of God and His Prophet lies in conducting all human affairs in accordance with the Law revealed to them:

"And those who do not judge by what God has sent down are disbelievers." (5:44)

Thus belief in God and His Prophet means commitment to obey them and to fashion individual and collective life in the light of the law and the guidance that God revealed to His Prophet.

Thus the basic articles of Islamic faith are: (a) belief in the oneness of God, (b) belief in the prophets and in the guidance that they bequeathed, (c) belief in the angels, (d) belief in the books, (e) belief in the Day of Judgment, and (f) belief in fate. Whomever professes these beliefs is a Muslim. And all of these concepts are epitomized in the kalimah: There is no god but Allah; Muhammad (saw) is His Prophet.

solomon7

03-18-2006, 01:20 PM

Salaam,

Sir, I agree w/your rather long essay.

You have not addressed the question.

I shall attempt to, make it easier.

Please, present evidence from the Quran, Prophet Muhammad(saw) was the last messenger.

BTW "Messenger" does not equal "prophet".

solomon7

03-18-2006, 01:41 PM

. 9: “ Wajh in Arabic language means the essence, all the ul’ama of kalam (scholars of theology) are, almost categorically in agreement on this, even though all of this is considered mutashbih (i.e. unclear/confusing matter) almost all the ul’ama (scholars) say that this means the essence of Allah SWT but it is still considered from the mutashabihat (i.e. unclear/confusing matters) so we always say Allahu a’lam, no’emeno bihi ala muradi-llah (Allah knows best, we believe in it as Allah wants)… The wajh in Arabic language means face but it also means the essence.

Comment:

1. The is fundamental contradiction here, how come, all the scholars are in agreement that “Wajh” means the essence and yet its meaning still considered mutashabih (a confusing matter)?

2. The primary meaning of “Wajh” from a literal linguistic point of view, is the front part of anything e.g. for a human being the Wajh is the face. It has a secondary meaning which is the essence. Both meanings are used in different verses of the Quran. Here is what 2 major sources for classical Arabic say about the meaning of Wajh (please note how their definition is exactly the opposite of what he used above):

a. “The meaning of the wajh is very well-known i.e. the face.” (Lisan al-Arab by Ibn Mandhoor – died 711 H- Vol. 13, page 555. Dar Sadir, Beirut. First edition 1990)

b. “The wajh is the front side of anything. It might be used to mean the essence.” (Mujmal al-lughah by Ibn Faris – died 395 H-, Vol. 3 page 917. Published by mussat ar-Resalh, Beirut. First Edition 1984.

3. More details on this will be provided subsequently, .

http://hamzayusuf.faithweb.com/tapes/insan.htm

Aqil

03-18-2006, 03:32 PM

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.” (33:41)

The Arabic word “khatam” is derived from “khatama” which means, he sealed, stamped, impressed or imprinted the thing. This is the primary signification of this word. The secondary meaning is, he reached the end of the thing; or covered the thing; or protected what is in a writing by marking or stamping a piece of clay upon it, or by means of a seal of any kind. “Khatam” means, a signet-ring; a seal or stamp and a mark; the end or last part or portion, and result or issue of a thing. The word also signifies embellishment or ornament; the best and most perfect. So the expression Khatam al-Nabiyyin would mean, “the Seal of the Prophets; the best and most perfect of the Prophets; the embellishment and ornament of the Prophets. Secondarily it means the last of the Prophets.

At Mecca, when all the Holy Prophet’s male children had died in their childhood, his enemies taunted him with being Abtar (one who has no male issue), meaning that in the absence of male heirs to succeed him his Movement would sooner or later come to an end. In answer to this taunt of disbelievers, it was emphatically declared in Sura Kausar – that not the Prophet, but his enemies would remain issueless. After the revelation of Sura Kausar, the idea naturally found favor with early Muslims that the Prophet would be blessed with sons who would live to an adult age.

The verse under comment removed that misconception inasmuch as it declared that the Prophet is not, never was, nor will ever be the father of any grown-up young men. The verse – while appearing to be in conflict with Sura Kausar, in which not the Holy Prophet but his enemies were threatened with being issueless – in reality seeks to set at rest doubts and misgivings to which this seeming contradiction gives rise. It says that the Holy Prophet is Rasul Allah, signifying that he is the spiritual father of a whole Ummah, and he is also Khatam al-Nabiyyin, signifying that he is the spiritual father of all the Prophets. So when he is the spiritual father of all believers and of all Prophets, how can he be said to be issueless? If the expression be taken to mean that he is the last of the Prophets and that no Prophet will come after him, then the verse would appear to be out of tune, and to possess no relevance with the context, and instead of refuting the taunt of disbelievers that the Holy Prophet was issueless, would support and reinforce it.

Briefly, according to the meaning of the word "Khatam" given above, the expression Khatam al-Nabiyyin can have four possible meanings:

(1) TheHoly Prophet was the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., no Prophet can be regarded as true unless his Prophet hood bears the seal of the Holy Prophet. The Prophet hood of every past Prophet must be confirmed and testified to by the Holy Prophet, and also nobody can attain to Prophet hood after him except by being his follower.

(2) The Holy Prophet was the best, the noblest and the most perfect of all the Prophets, and he was also a source of embellishment for them.

(3) The Holy Prophet was the last of the law-bearing Prophets. This interpretation has been accepted by eminent Muslim theologians, saints and savants such as Ibn Arabi, Shah Wali-Allah, Imam Ali Qari. Mujaddid Alf Thani, and others. According to these great scholars and saints, no Prophet can come after the Holy Prophet who could abrogate his Millah or who should be from outside his Ummah. A'ishah, the talented spouse of the Holy Prophet, is reported to have said, ‘Say that he (the Holy Prophet) is Khatam al-Nabiyyin, but do not say that there will be no Prophet after him.’ (Manthur)

(4) The Holy Prophet was the last of the Prophets only in this sense that all the qualities and attributes of Prophet hood found their most perfect and complete consummation and expression in him. Khatam, in the sense of being the last word in excellence and perfection, is of common use. Moreover, the Qur’an clearly speaks of the advent of Prophets after the Holy Prophet 7:36).

The Holy Prophet himself was clear in his mind as to the continuity of Prophet hood after him. He is reported to have said: “If Ibrahim (his son) had remained alive, he would have been a Prophet,” and “Abu Bakr is best of men after me, except that a Prophet should appear…”

(Btw, the word "nabi" is the Arabic and Hebrew word for "prophet." "Rasul" is the Arabic word for "messenger")

solomon7

03-18-2006, 03:56 PM

Salaam,

“the Seal of the Prophets"

AND?

in, no way, does the above infer "messenger".

Aqil

03-18-2006, 05:31 PM

To fully understand why the Qur'an has considered it sufficient to declare that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last Nabi (prophet) and has not felt the need to declare that Muhammad (saw) is also the last Rasu'l (messenger) of God, one must first understand the difference between the two words - "Nabi" and "Rasu'l."

The Qur'an has used the words "Nabi" (literally meaning: "one who informs") and "Rasu'l" (literally meaning: "one who delivers a message") as terms as well as in their literal meanings. In their literal meaning, these words have also been used interchangeably. However, as terms of the Qur'an, the two words have been used in a more qualified and distinct implication.

Nabi, as a term of the Qur'an, refers to individuals selected by the Almighty for the specific purpose of delivering the message revealed to him from God and to remind people of the day when they shall be presented before the Almighty, and shall have to answer for their deeds. In other words, "Nabi" is an individual who guides his people to the path of the Creator's liking, in the light of the message revealed to him.

On the other hand, "Rasu'l," as a term of the Qur'an, is a special position, which was given only to a few of the "Nabis." Every "Nabi" is not necessarily a "Rasu'l." According to the details provided by the Qur'an regarding the position of "Rasu'l", the following points can be derived:

God sends His Messengers as symbols of His final Judgment. A Messenger, in contrast to a Prophet, is not just a deliverer of God's Message. In addition to being a deliverer of God's Message, he decides the fate of his addressees, on the basis of the response that he receives from them. Regarding Messengers, the Qur'an says:
"Those who oppose God and His Rasu'ls shall be brought low. God has decreed: I will surely triumph, Myself and My Rasu'ls. God is Most Powerful, Mighty." (Al-Mujadilah 58: 20, 21)

It should be quite clear from this clarification, that though Nabi and Rasu'l are separate designations of the Qur'an, and all Prophets are not Messengers, yet all Messengers are Prophets too. Thus when the Qur'an said that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is "the seal of Prophets," it automatically implies that the Qur'an holds him as "the seal of Messengers" too, because a person who is a "Rasu'l", according to the above explanation, has to be a "Nabi" first.

Ma Salaam.

solomon7

03-18-2006, 06:31 PM

Salaam,

(Btw, the word "nabi" is the Arabic and Hebrew word for "prophet." "Rasul" is the Arabic word for "messenger")

should I be impressed?

solomon7

03-18-2006, 07:02 PM

Mr. Muhammad(pbuh) claimed to be a "messenger" not a "prophet. "Orthodox" Muslims believe they are the same. Proof, they are not...

022.052
YUSUFALI: Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:

PICKTHAL: Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;

SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise,

52. Wama arsalna min qablika min rasoolin wala nabiyyin illa itha tamanna alqa alshshaytanu fee omniyyatihi fayansakhu Allahu ma yulqee alshshaytanu thumma yuhkimu Allahu ayatihi waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

or1

PRONUNCIATION: ôr; r when unstressed
CONJUNCTION: 1a. Used to indicate an alternative, usually only before the last term of a series: hot or cold; this, that, or the other. b. Used to indicate the second of two alternatives, the first being preceded by either or whether: Your answer is either ingenious or wrong. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. c. Archaic Used to indicate the first of two alternatives, with the force of either or whether.

Now, why do you suppose BOTH words are used?

Could it be, they have different meanings?

solomon7

03-18-2006, 07:28 PM

Quick definitions (MESSENGER)

noun: a person who carries a message

Quick definitions (Prophet)

noun: an authoritative person who divines the future

God's Definition of

PROPHET and MESSENGER

(Nabi and Rasoul)

In 3:81 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.

"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." 3:81

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall translated 3:81 as follows:

"When Allah made (His) covenant with the PROPHETS, (He said): Behold that which I have GIVEN you of the SCRIPTURE AND KNOWLEDGE. And afterward there will come unto you a MESSENGER, CONFIRMING that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you)in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear witness. I will be a witness with you."

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi"."It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159).

The Quranic definition of Prophet, and how all the prophets were given Scripture
to deliver, is also confirmed in the following verse:

"The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213

http://www.submission.org/messenger/prophet.html

solomon7

03-18-2006, 07:41 PM

Where Mr. Aquil may have "' cut and pasted" his essay...

http://www.understanding-islam.com/rpr/pr-003.htm

It should be quite clear from this clarification, that though “Nabi” and “Rasu’l” are separate designations of the Qur’an and all Nabis are not Rasu’l, yet all “Rasu’ls” are “Nabis” too. Thus when the Qur’an said that Mohammad (pbuh) is “the seal of Nabis”, it automatically implies that the Qur’an holds him as the seal of “Rasu’ls” too, because a person who is a “Rasu’l”, according to the Qur’an, has to be a “Nabi” first.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/rpr/pr-003.htm

Mr. Aquil wrote:

It should be quite clear from this clarification, that though Nabi and Rasu'l are separate designations of the Qur'an, and all Prophets are not Messengers, yet all Messengers are Prophets too. Thus when the Qur'an said that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is "the seal of Prophets," it automatically implies that the Qur'an holds him as "the seal of Messengers" too, because a person who is a "Rasu'l", according to the above explanation, has to be a "Nabi" first.

or...

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=9&sscatid=37

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=40468

etc.

Aqil

03-19-2006, 01:53 AM

Salaam aqi:

Shokran for your research. Being Muslim, I use several Islamic websites when researching, including http://www.understanding-islam.org/index.asp Some of my favorites are:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/emerick16.htm
http://www.mostmerciful.com/reply-ans-islam.htm
http://www.albawaba.com/en/main/
http://www.iad.org/PDF/ICP.pdf
http://islam-online.net/english/index.shtml

In the quote from http://www.understanding-islam.com/rpr/pr-003.htm that you posted I translated the Arabic words nabi and rasu'l to the English "Prophet" and "Messenger" for a better understanding. In my research I also found the following sites quite interesting:

http://www.quran-islam.org/156.html
http://www.submission.org/messenger/reason.html
http://www.submission.org/messenger/covenant.html
http://www.irib.ir/worldservice/Etrat/English/Nabi/Besat/last_message_the_last_prophet.htm
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/sheikh/Adab_of_holy_last_messenger.html

With reason's torch we search for truth...

Ma Salaam.

(While I enjoy the dialogue on this subject, the topic of my thread is an excerpt from Mustafa El-Amin's book, The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference?)

solomon7

03-19-2006, 11:33 AM

Aqil

03-19-2006, 12:07 PM

To fully understand why the Qur'an has considered it sufficient to declare that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last Nabi (prophet) and has not felt the need to declare that Muhammad (saw) is also the last Rasu'l (messenger) of God, one must first understand the difference between the two words - "Nabi" and "Rasu'l."

The Qur'an has used the words "Nabi" (literally meaning: "one who informs") and "Rasu'l" (literally meaning: "one who delivers a message") as terms as well as in their literal meanings. In their literal meaning, these words have also been used interchangeably. However, as terms of the Qur'an, the two words have been used in a more qualified and distinct implication.

Nabi, as a term of the Qur'an, refers to individuals selected by the Almighty for the specific purpose of delivering the message revealed to him from God and to remind people of the day when they shall be presented before the Almighty, and shall have to answer for their deeds. In other words, "Nabi" is an individual who guides his people to the path of the Creator's liking, in the light of the message revealed to him.

On the other hand, "Rasu'l," as a term of the Qur'an, is a special position, which was given only to a few of the "Nabis." Every "Nabi" is not necessarily a "Rasu'l." According to the details provided by the Qur'an regarding the position of "Rasu'l", the following points can be derived:

God sends His Messengers as symbols of His final Judgment. A Messenger, in contrast to a Prophet, is not just a deliverer of God's Message. In addition to being a deliverer of God's Message, he decides the fate of his addressees, on the basis of the response that he receives from them. Regarding Messengers, the Qur'an says:

"Those who oppose God and His Rasu'ls shall be brought low. God has decreed: I will surely triumph, Myself and My Rasu'ls. God is Most Powerful, Mighty." (Al-Mujadilah 58: 20, 21)

It should be quite clear from this clarification, that though Nabi and Rasu'l are separate designations of the Qur'an, and all Prophets are not Messengers, yet all Messengers are Prophets too. Thus when the Qur'an said that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is "the seal of Prophets," it automatically implies that the Qur'an holds him as "the seal of Messengers" too, because a person who is a "Rasu'l", according to the above explanation, has to be a "Nabi" first.

Ma Salaam.

solomon7

03-19-2006, 12:12 PM

salaam,

You have, in no way, answered these questions...

Now, why do you suppose BOTH words are used?

Could it be, they have different meanings?

52. Wama arsalna min qablika min rasoolin wala nabiyyin illa itha tamanna alqa alshshaytanu fee omniyyatihi fayansakhu Allahu ma yulqee alshshaytanu thumma yuhkimu Allahu ayatihi waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

Aqil

03-19-2006, 01:44 PM

solomon7

03-19-2006, 04:33 PM

THE TRURH 007
Blastmaster Teacha
(8/22/05 1:40 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Jerz, answer the questions...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARE YOU SO "STUPID" YOU CAN NOT SEE!?

!Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------JERZ WROTE:
Please inform me if I'm wrong
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. The denial of physical resurrection in the hereafter.
This, according to the Qur'an, is a trait of disabelief.......because there are many implications that we WILL be physically resurrected and it's a FACT that prophets/messengers were mock and ridicule for teaching this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I WILL PROVE YOU WRONG...

047.015
YUSUFALI: a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
PICKTHAL: A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?
SHAKIR: A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

parable

SYLLABICATION: par·a·ble
PRONUNCIATION: pr-bl
NOUN: A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.
============================================
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

similitude

SYLLABICATION: si·mil·i·tude
PRONUNCIATION: s-ml-td, -tyd
NOUN: 1. Similarity; resemblance. See synonyms at likeness. 2a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart. b. A perceptible likeness. 3. Archaic A simile, allegory, or parable.

WILL YOU NOW SUBMIT?
==================suleiman = wise abdul = slave of
Rahman = The Benificent or The Doer of Good
so, the wise slave of, The Doer of Good
"Pluto sits out there, but still just a touch of the Sun moves her."
----------

: FROM A DISCUSSION Quick definitions (Colon)

noun: a punctuation mark (:) used after a word introducing a series or an example or an explanation (or after the salutation of a business letter)

uplift19

03-19-2006, 09:28 PM

Does "back to the topic of my thread" mean you concede that messenger and prophet have different meanings? If the Holy Qur'an speaks of the last days, and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets, who/what do we expect to see at the time of judgement? If the time for prophecy is over, what should a believer in Allah and His Messenger be looking for?

Back to the topic of my thread:

The Difference Between the Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam

By Mustafa El-Amin

It is essential that the American people in general – and African-Americans in particular – know and realize that there are very clear differences in the teachings of the religion of Islam and the teachings of the Nation of Islam (NOI). In order for people to make an accurate and clear judgment or decision about anyone or anything, it is always best for them to have as much correct information as possible...

For about fifty years the teachings of the NOI was the dominant message in America concerning Islam and Muslims. Most people, particularly African-Americans, saw the teachings of the NOI as the “pure message” of Islam. However, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975 and the assuming of the organization's leadership by his son Wallace – who is now Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad – the old message of the NOI began to fade away and a new message and teaching came into existence.

The new message was based on the Holy Qur’an (Muslim holy book) and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last Messenger of Allah (swt). It is not a completely new message or teaching in the sense that it has never been taught or heard in the world before; but it was called “new” because it was new to the ears of the members of the NOI. They never heard the pure and true teachings of Islam before...

The majority of the members of the former NOI were able to grasp the new message, and have changed and accepted the religion of Islam as it is practiced by over 1.5 billion Muslims the world over. However, the majority of the American people still have not had the same opportunity to hear the clear message of the Islamic religion, and most African-Americans are still deprived and denied the opportunity to hear the true teachings of Islam...

The Concept of God According to the Religion of Islam

“It is Allah who is God in Heaven and God on Earth, and He is full of wisdom and knowledge.” (Sura 43:84)

Allah (God), according to the religion of Islam, is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He is in total charge of the entire creation. He has no beginning or ending. He was never born and will never die. He has always been in existence. Allah (God) is not a physical being. The Qur’an says, “No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision and He is above total comprehension, yet He is well acquainted with all things.” The Qur’an also states: “Say He is Allah, the one and only; God the eternal, absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” (Sura 112)

The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters. He is neither male nor female. He is the source of human life and gender. He just says, “Be” and it is. Allah (God) is responsible for the creation of every human being. He created all colors and made our features beautiful...

The concept of God in the religion of Islam is an extremely vast and important concept. Perhaps the most important aspect of Islam is the belief in the Oneness (tauhid) of God. This is very different from the beliefs and teachings of the Nation of Islam.

The Concept of God According to the Nation of Islam

“God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than a man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man's intelligence has no equal in other than man.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.6)

The God of the Nation of Islam is called "Master Fard Muhammad," an Arab who was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia on February 26, 1877. “We believe that Allah (God) came in the person of Master Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930,” it says in The Final Call newspaper. On p. 11 of Elijah Muhammad’s bookThe Supreme Wisdom: Solution to the So-called Negro’s Problem, it states that “Allah came to us from the Holy City of Mecca in 1930.” And on p.67 of his book Our Savior Has Arrived, there is the following statement: “The Muslims worship one God, Allah. ‘Say: He (Allah) is one God.’ Yet 99% of the Old World Muslims think that Allah is only a spirit and is not a man.”

According to the teachings of the NOI there were several gods from the beginning of time. They teach that these gods live and die and pass their knowledge and godship from one to another. They teach that God is a man and He always was a man, and that the First God created Himself from and out of total triple darkness (!)

The NOI also teaches that the Black man is God. They believe that one god created the Moon and another one created the Sun, stars, and the Earth. According to their teachings, about 70 trillion years ago one of the Black gods got angry and tried to destroy the Earth with “high explosives.” He was unsuccessful in his attempt to destroy the entire Earth, but he did blow it in half. The part that was separated was the Moon. (If you have any doubts about this read Message to the Black Man, or ask any minister of the NOI.)...

The God of the Nation of Islam marries, has sex, eats food and makes mistakes; he is a human being. They teach that one of the gods, named “Alfonso,” went to Europe and married a pure white woman who gave birth to a daughter, which was a mistake. The lesson says the god "Alfonso" said, “Oops, we missed that time.” He wanted a son, so he tried again and they had a son. This son inherited the godship. He was half Black and half white.

The NOI knows this son of the god "Alfonso" as W. Fard Muhammad. They teach that God manifested himself in Fard Muhammad, a Caucasian-looking Arab man. He came to America to seek and to save the African- American people. This man, Fard Muhammad – according to the teachings of the NOI – has the power to control the Heavens and the Earth, wind, hail, snow and rain...

The God of the NOI is not an eternal being. He dies and his wisdom “only lives 25,000 years.” According to their teachings the world is in the 25,000-year cycle of Fard Muhammad’s wisdom. In fact, he is supposed to be the greatest and wisest god to have ever lived. He looks like a Caucasian; his mother was a Caucasian woman from the hills of Europe. (According to Fard, there was another Black god – a scientist named “Yakub” who created the white man some 6,000 years ago.)

As you can clearly see, the concept of God in the religion of Islam is extremely different from that of the Nation of Islam. Over 1.5 billion Muslims believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented in the religion of Islam and the Holy Qur’an. Only a few thousand believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented by the NOI. In the religion of Islam Allah (God), the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, is eternal. The entire creation is His kingdom.

The God of the NOI is not eternal; his life is short-lived. In fact, I understand that the so-called leader of the NOI, Minister Louis Farrakhan, is attempting to change their Master Fard Muhammad from God to “Mahdi,” and replace Fard with the true Islamic concept of God. The concept of God in the religion of Islam can never be changed. Allah (swt) is bigger than everything – nothing can contain Him. The man Fard Muhammad, the God of the Nation of Islam, can be contained anywhere...

The Concept of Man According to the Religion of Islam

The Qur’an says that Allah (God) created man with a good nature. He created the human being “in the best mold.” Every human being is created in nobility. According to the religion of Islam every human being has a natural inclination towards good, righteousness and truth.

Man is entrusted with the role of leader in creation. Allah (swt) gave man a limited free will, and he can decide which road he wants to travel in life. The Qur’an also says that Allah (swt) gave the human being the gift of knowledge, and that man was given the knowledge of creation (Sura 2:31-32). The human being was created and raised above the angels (i.e., forces in nature)...

According to Islam every human being is created by one God, Allah (swt), The Most High. Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated in his farewell address that there is no superiority of a black over a white or a white over a black, or an Arab over a non-Arab, etc. Islam teaches that all humans have the same potential for progress. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “every person is born a Muslim.” Any human being can become a Muslim. Islam is not just for a particular group of people. Man is created perfect in his nature...

Islam makes a clear distinction between the God Allah (swt) and man. Allah (swt) is all-powerful and independent, whereas man is totally dependent on Allah (swt) for everything. However, Allah (swt) has given us the freedom to think and reason, and He has blessed us with intelligence. The Holy Qur’an says that man was created to worship Allah (swt); “Nay, but worship Allah and be of those who give thanks.” (Sura 39:66)

The Concept of Man According to the Nation of Islam

The concept of man in the Nation of Islam is quite different from that of the religion of Islam. The NOI teaches that there are two totally different human beings with extremely different natures: the Black man and the white man. They teach that the Black man is the original man; the owner, the maker, the cream of the planet Earth and the god of the Universe. The Black man is god; his nature is righteous. “The original man, Allah has declared, is none other than the Black man. The Black man is the first and last, maker and owner of the Universe. From him came all brown, red, yellow and white people.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man, p.53)

Not only does the NOI teach that there are two different types of human beings, they also teach that they (black and white people) were created by different “gods.” They teach that the Black man is self-created, and that the white man was created by a Black man named “Yakub” 6,000 years ago. Yakub taught the white man wickedness; he also taught them how to rule the Black man (See Message to the Black Man, pp.103-122)

The NOI teaches something totally different from the religion of Islam. They teach that man is God; that man can evolve to such a high mental level until he becomes God. “God is a man and we just cannot make Him other than man, lest we make Him an inferior one; for man’s intelligence has no equal in other than man. His wisdom is infinite; capable of accomplishing anything that His brain can conceive. Let that one among you who believes that God is other than man prove it!” (Message to the Black Man, pp. 6,7)

The Qur’an says that during the time of Moses the disbelievers said similar things. “And remember ye said, ‘O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly’” (Sura 2:55). The holy book that is accepted by over 1.5 billion Muslims clearly states that Allah (swt) is the Owner and Maker of the Universe, not man. “He it is who created the Heavens and the Earth in truth.” (Sura 6:73) “Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon giving light; and it is He who made the night and day to follow each other.” (Sura 25:61-62)

And the Qur’an clearly states that man is created by Allah (swt) in Sura 55:14, which reads as follows: “The Beneficent hath made known the Qur’an. He hath created men; He hath taught him utterance.”...

The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an According to the Religion of Islam

The Holy Qur’an is the rule and guide of every Muslim. All Muslims accept and believe that the Qur’an is the last revelation from Allah (swt). The religion of Islam teaches that the Qur’an is a Divine Book for all times and climes. The Qur’an was revealed to the last prophet and messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saws). Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the work of Allah (swt), and that it is the highest body of knowledge on this planet...

The Qur’an is a pure and perfect book; it is a summation and confirmation of all the previous holy books. The religion of Islam teaches that no other revelation will come to man. The Qur’an is the last revelation. “All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness.” (Sura 18:2)

What the Nation of Islam Says About the Holy Qur'an

The NOI does not accept or teach that the Holy Qur’an was revealed by Allah (swt), or that it is the complete and final revelation from Allah (swt). The NOI teaches that the Qur’an was written by men. According to the teachings of the NOI, every 25,000 years a group of scientists come together to write a holy book. Thus, according to them, another holy book will come. For about fifty years the NOI taught that the Qur’an was to be used only for a certain period of time, and then another book would be written in its place. (See Message to the Black Man, p.91 & 97.)

The NOI does not teach that the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (saw) by Allah (swt). It teaches that “there is another book that none has been able to see or read; its contents coming soon from Allah – the ‘Last Book’ which takes us into the Hereafter.” Also, “the Holy Qur’an and the Glory Books should be read and studied by us, the so-called American Negro"...

Both the present Bible and the Holy Qur’an must soon give way to that Holy Book which no man as yet – but Allah – has seen.” And: “We, the original nation of the Earth...are the writers of the Bible and Qur’an. We make such history once every 25,000 years. When such history is written, it is done by 24 of our scientists. One acts as judge or god for the others and 23 actually do the work of getting up the future of the nation, and all is put into one book.

And at intervals where such and such part or portion will come to pass, that people will be given that part of the book through one among that people from one of the 12 major scientists, as it is then called a ‘scripture,’ which actually means a script of writing from something original, or book.” (Message to the Black Man, p.108)

In 1975, Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad, son of Elijah Muhammad, changed the teachings concerning the Holy Qur’an. He told NOI members that the Holy Qur’an is the final revelation and that no other book was coming. In fact, Imam Muhammad transformed the NOI into a totally new community. The majority of its members embraced the religion of Islam. Minister Louis Farrakhan, who calls himself the leader of the NOI, did not accept the changes and held on to the old teachings of the NOI. Imam Muhammad and the majority of the Muslims in America are not members of the NOI, headed by Min. Farrakhan...

It must be said here, however, that there are many things concerning the Qur’an that are taught by the NOI that agree with the religion of Islam’s teachings of the Muslim Holy Book. For example, Elijah Muhammad wrote in his book, Message to the Black Man that “the Holy Qur’an and Shari’ah contains some of the most beautiful prayers that one ever heard, read or recited. It is called 'The Glorious Qur’an,' and, without mistake, that is just what it is.” (p. 92)

(MUSTAFA EL-AMIN is the author of "The Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam: What is the Difference?")

Aqil

03-20-2006, 07:51 AM

Does "back to the topic of my thread" mean you concede that messenger and prophet have different meanings?No. See post #135 for clarification...

If the Holy Qur'an speaks of the last days, and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets, who/what do we expect to see at the time of judgement? If the time for prophecy is over, what should a believer in Allah and His Messenger be looking for?"What are they awaiting but for the Hour to come upon them suddenly? Its Signs have already come. What good will their Reminder be to them when it does arrive?" (Surah Muhammad:18)

From this verse we learn that the Qur'an describes signs that announce the coming of the Last Day. In order to understand the signs of this "great announcement" we must reflect upon these verses. Otherwise, as the verse indicates, our thinking will be of no use when the Last Day is suddenly upon us. Allah (swt) reveals in the Qur'an that there can be no doubt that the Last Day is near:

"And the Hour is coming without any doubt." (Surah Al-Hajj:7)

"We did not create the heavens and earth and everything between them, except with truth. The Hour is certainly coming." (Surah Al-Hijr:85)

There may be some who think that the message of the Qur'an concerning the Last Day was revealed more that 1400 years ago, and that this is a long time compared to the length of a human life. But here it is a question of the end of the world, the Sun and the stars, in short, of the Universe. When we consider that the Universe is billions of years old, 14 centuries is a very short period of time...

SAMURAI36

03-20-2006, 10:28 AM

Back to the topic of my thread:

The Difference Between the Religion of Islam and the Nation of Islam

By Mustafa El-Amin

AQI, we must be careful in utilizing EL-AMIN's perspective on the NOI here, as he has been known to take a literalists stance against it.

As much as EL-AMIN presents some good points, his perspective is not untennable, to the point of sometimes being fallacious.

For example:

For about fifty years the teachings of the NOI was the dominant message in America concerning Islam and Muslims. Most people, particularly African-Americans, saw the teachings of the NOI as the “pure message” of Islam. However, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975 and the assuming of the organization's leadership by his son Wallace – who is now Imam Abdul Warithudin Muhammad – the old message of the NOI began to fade away and a new message and teaching came into existence.

This is obviously outdated info. The NOI, in it's various forms is still up and kicking, and doing better in many instances than WALLACE's movement is/was.

The new message was based on the Holy Qur’an (Muslim holy book) and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last Messenger of Allah (swt). It is not a completely new message or teaching in the sense that it has never been taught or heard in the world before; but it was called “new” because it was new to the ears of the members of the NOI. They never heard the pure and true teachings of Islam before...

The majority of the members of the former NOI were able to grasp the new message, and have changed and accepted the religion of Islam as it is practiced by over 1.5 billion Muslims the world over. However, the majority of the American people still have not had the same opportunity to hear the clear message of the Islamic religion, and most African-Americans are still deprived and denied the opportunity to hear the true teachings of Islam...

The Concept of God According to the Religion of Islam

“It is Allah who is God in Heaven and God on Earth, and He is full of wisdom and knowledge.” (Sura 43:84)

Allah (God), according to the religion of Islam, is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He is in total charge of the entire creation. He has no beginning or ending. He was never born and will never die. He has always been in existence. Allah (God) is not a physical being. The Qur’an says, “No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision and He is above total comprehension, yet He is well acquainted with all things.” The Qur’an also states: “Say He is Allah, the one and only; God the eternal, absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” (Sura 112)

The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters.

The problem with such a statement, is that it is simply not correct.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, ALLAH did indeed have daughters: ALLAT, MANAT and AL-UZZAH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allat

This is even mentioned in the QUR'AN, Surah 53. How is this explained? And why does the Orthodox Muslim world seek to overlook this, especially in their campaign to discredit any non-Orthodox Muslim group that doesn't agree with the "general consensus", infallible though it may be.

He is neither male nor female.

Listen to the very grammatical contradiction: "HE is neither male......." Does this make any earthly sense?

For that matter, how does a "HE" possess 3 daughters, without the assistance or utilization of another female presence?

The God of the Nation of Islam is called "Master Fard Muhammad," an Arab who was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia on February 26, 1877. “We believe that Allah (God) came in the person of Master Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930,” it says in The Final Call newspaper. On p. 11 of Elijah Muhammad’s bookThe Supreme Wisdom: Solution to the So-called Negro’s Problem, it states that “Allah came to us from the Holy City of Mecca in 1930.” And on p.67 of his book Our Savior Has Arrived, there is the following statement: “The Muslims worship one God, Allah. ‘Say: He (Allah) is one God.’ Yet 99% of the Old World Muslims think that Allah is only a spirit and is not a man.”

Yet another oversimplification of NOI teachings, on the part of Mr EL-AMIN.

That I can recall, no where within the NOI doctrine, does it state that MASTER FARAD MUHAMMAD is to be worshipped as GOD.

According to the teachings of the NOI there were several gods from the beginning of time. They teach that these gods live and die and pass their knowledge and godship from one to another. They teach that God is a man and He always was a man, and that the First God created Himself from and out of total triple darkness (!)

Apparently, according to the teachings of pre-Islamic Islam, this is the very same teaching. Reference ALLAH, ALLAT, etc from above.

The God of the Nation of Islam marries, has sex, eats food and makes mistakes; he is a human being.

Apparently the "ALLAH" of the QUR'AN can do this as well, since "HE" gave birth to 3 daughters.

How can "ALLAH" have daughters, without the means of sex? How does a being that is "neither male nor female" have sex, without the usage of female or male genitalia? Did "HE" have sex out of wedlock, or was "HE" married to the other being that helped "HIM" to give birth to these daughters?

As you can clearly see, the concept of God in the religion of Islam is extremely different from that of the Nation of Islam.

Not really, especially when we take a clear, thorough look at the history of Islam from ancient times, as well as a clear thorough look at NOI teachings.

Over 1.5 billion Muslims believe and accept the concept of God as it is presented in the religion of Islam and the Holy Qur’an.

So this means that 1.5 billion people believe that ALLAH had daughters, "as it is presented in the Holy Qur'an"? :confused:

The reality is, that very few out of that 1.5B have actually even read the QUR'AN in its entirety. Just like very few Christians have ever actually read the entire Bible.

Most people don't even have a sufficient clue of what's in their respective Holy Book. They most just go by what they've been told.

The Concept of Man According to the Religion of Islam

The Qur’an says that Allah (God) created man with a good nature. He created the human being “in the best mold.” Every human being is created in nobility. According to the religion of Islam every human being has a natural inclination towards good, righteousness and truth.

According to Islam every human being is created by one God, Allah (swt), The Most High. Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated in his farewell address that there is no superiority of a black over a white or a white over a black, or an Arab over a non-Arab, etc. Islam teaches that all humans have the same potential for progress. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “every person is born a Muslim.” Any human being can become a Muslim. Islam is not just for a particular group of people. Man is created perfect in his nature...

The White ARAB has never believed this. In fact, there are numerous HADITH that indicate just precisely what they think of Blacks:

"RAISIN-HEAD........MONKEYS..........SEX-CRAVING HEATHENS........etc"

Islam makes a clear distinction between the God Allah (swt) and man. Allah (swt) is all-powerful and independent, whereas man is totally dependent on Allah (swt) for everything. However, Allah (swt) has given us the freedom to think and reason, and He has blessed us with intelligence. The Holy Qur’an says that man was created to worship Allah (swt); “Nay, but worship Allah and be of those who give thanks.” (Sura 39:66)

The Concept of Man According to the Nation of Islam

Not only does the NOI teach that there are two different types of human beings, they also teach that they (black and white people) were created by different “gods.” They teach that the Black man is self-created, and that the white man was created by a Black man named “Yakub” 6,000 years ago. Yakub taught the white man wickedness; he also taught them how to rule the Black man (See Message to the Black Man, pp.103-122)

Apparently this is not entirely different from what the White Arab teaches, especially about the Black man.

The NOI does not teach that the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (saw) by Allah (swt).

This is just an outright LIE. No where within NOI doctrine is it explicitly stated that the QUR'AN that is in use now, was not revealed to PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

MA'SALAAM

Aqil

03-20-2006, 02:27 PM

"The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters."

The problem with such a statement, is that it is simply not correct.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, ALLAH did indeed have daughters: ALLAT, MANAT and AL-UZZAH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allat

This is even mentioned in the QUR'AN, Surah 53. How is this explained? And why does the Orthodox Muslim world seek to overlook this, especially in their campaign to discredit any non-Orthodox Muslim group that doesn't agree with the "general consensus", infallible though it may be.It is also entirely wrong to say that "Al-Lat" was a feminine form of Allah. Besides Allah, the different tribes of the Arabs believed in their tribal gods. "Al-Lat" was the tribal god of the Thaqif tribe who lived in the city of Taif (where there was a shrine with an idol of Lat). The Quraish worshipped "Uzza" as their tribal god, and similarly with other tribes.

So it is simply incorrect to say that the Arabs regarded "Lat" as being a female equivalent of "Allah." "Allah" was, as said above, regarded by them as their supreme God. "Lat," "Manat," etc., were believed in as tribal gods.

Moreover, "Lat," "Manat" and "Uzza" were believed by them to be daughters of Allah, as the Qur'an says:

"Have you then considered Lat and Uzza, and the third, Manat? Are the males for you and for Him the females" (53:19-21).

The Qur'an is here pointing out the contradiction in their beliefs, that they ascribed daughters to Allah, but preferred to have sons themselves! So Lat, being believed as a daughter of Allah, could not possibly be regarded by them as the female equivalent of Allah.

In Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon the words ilah (god) and Allah occur under the root A-L-H, but the word "Al-lat" is given under an entirely different root, L-T. Therefore, "Al-lat" is not the feminine form of the word Allah (for in that case it would occur under the same root as for "Allah"), but is derived from a completely different root with a totally different meaning.

The root from which "Al-Lat" comes means (among other things) "to moisten." Lane quotes several reports on how the idol came to be so-called. It is named after a man called "Al-Lat." Sometime before Islam, there was a man who used to give pilgrims a barley meal moistened with either water or clarified butter. He thus became known as "Al-lat." After he died, the rock where he was buried came to be worshipped, and was known by his name. And thus there came to be the idol named "Al-lat."

http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm

SAMURAI36

03-20-2006, 03:19 PM

"The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters."

[QUOTE]It is also entirely wrong to say that "Al-Lat" was a feminine form of Allah.

Actually, that's not my assertion. In all actuality, "ALLAT" is indeed the masculine, "ALLAH" being the feminine.

But that is not what is at issue here.

The main focus, is that

Besides Allah, the different tribes of the Arabs believed in their tribal gods. "Al-Lat" was the tribal god of the Thaqif tribe who lived in the city of Taif (where there was a shrine with an idol of Lat). The Quraish worshipped "Uzza" as their tribal god, and similarly with other tribes.

True indeed, but in ancient times, all of these deities were considered to be feminine, as were many of the deities in the Arabian pantheon of divinity.

That, in my understanding, is what is meant by them "keeping the males for themselves".

So it is simply incorrect to say that the Arabs regarded "Lat" as being a female equivalent of "Allah." "Allah" was, as said above, regarded by them as their supreme God. "Lat," "Manat," etc., were believed in as tribal gods.

Again, that is not the assertion here.

The assertion is that ALLAH is the "father" (or otherwise parent) of ALLAT and co. The child is NEVER to be seen as the equivolent to the parent. :nono:

Moreover, "Lat," "Manat" and "Uzza" were believed by them to be daughters of Allah, as the Qur'an says:

"Have you then considered Lat and Uzza, and the third, Manat? Are the males for you and for Him the females" (53:19-21).

The Qur'an is here pointing out the contradiction in their beliefs, that they ascribed daughters to Allah, but preferred to have sons themselves! So Lat, being believed as a daughter of Allah, could not possibly be regarded by them as the female equivalent of Allah.

I agree, and that is my point all along. All this verse is doing, is pointing out the male chauvinism on the part of these men.

However, that does not discount the fact that according to pre-Islamic theology, ALLAH was seen as the parent deity to ALLAH, MANAT and UZZAH.

This is no different than, as it is stated in Kemetic Theology, that NUN and NUT are the parents of AUSAR, AUSET, SET and NEB-THET.

The former duo of deities are not "equivolent" to the latter quartet of deities.

In Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon the words ilah (god) and Allah occur under the root A-L-H, but the word "Al-lat" is given under an entirely different root, L-T. Therefore, "Al-lat" is not the feminine form of the word Allah (for in that case it would occur under the same root as for "Allah"), but is derived from a completely different root with a totally different meaning.

This is a point that needs not be further argued, as it is agreed.

The root from which "Al-Lat" comes means (among other things) "to moisten." Lane quotes several reports on how the idol came to be so-called. It is named after a man called "Al-Lat." Sometime before Islam, there was a man who used to give pilgrims a barley meal moistened with either water or clarified butter. He thus became known as "Al-lat." After he died, the rock where he was buried came to be worshipped, and was known by his name. And thus there came to be the idol named "Al-lat."

Where is "Lane's" documentation for this?

This actually sounds like the usual attempts to differentiate pre-Islamic theology from post-Islamic theology, from both having the same root or source or origin.

This is old-hat, as far as I'm concerned.

However, the fact remains that out of the 360 some deities of Arabia during that time, ALLAH was merely another one of them, and apparently He had no more superlative preference than any other deity.

SALAAM

solomon7

03-20-2006, 08:04 PM

The assertion is that ALLAH is the "father" (or otherwise parent) of ALLAT and co.

based on?

...............

solomon7

03-20-2006, 08:11 PM

Moreover, "Lat," "Manat" and "Uzza" were believed by them to be daughters of Allah, as the Qur'an says:

"Have you then considered Lat and Uzza, and the third, Manat? Are the males for you and for Him the females" (53:19-21).

The Qur'an is here pointing out the contradiction in their beliefs, that they ascribed daughters to Allah, but preferred to have sons themselves! So Lat, being believed as a daughter of Allah, could not possibly be regarded by them as the female equivalent of Allah.

WRONG!

"53.19": Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,

"53.20": And Manat, the third, the last?

"53.21": What! for you the males and for Him the females!

"53.22": This indeed is an unjust division!

"53.23": They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

solomon7

03-20-2006, 08:17 PM

ALLAH was seen as the parent deity to ALLAH, MANAT and UZZAH.

INCORRCT. PLEASE, SEE ABOVE.

SAMURAI36

03-20-2006, 09:50 PM

based on?

...............

How much do you actually know about pre-Islamic history?

Can you name all the Gods in the Arabian Pantheon, and how the correlated to each other?

solomon7

03-20-2006, 10:19 PM

How much do you actually know about pre-Islamic history?

Can you name all the Gods in the Arabian Pantheon, and how the correlated to each other?

I can read and, I am able to see, that which is not correct.

in answer to your question, I am not very knowledgable.

WHY?

SAMURAI36

03-20-2006, 11:04 PM

I can read and, I am able to see, that which is not correct.

in answer to your question, I am not very knowledgable.

WHY?

Because you would need to be knowledgeable on this subject, in order to tell someone that they are "incorrect" about it, as you have done.

Nonetheless, you have told on yourself, and until you gain a proficient level of knowledge on this subject, I'd thank you kindly, not to presume to tell me what I am incorrect about.

SHUQ'RAN, and SALAAM

solomon7

03-21-2006, 12:24 AM

[..........

Aqil

03-21-2006, 09:18 AM

The goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat formed a triad in pre-Islamic Arabia. They were widely worshipped, from Nabatean Petra in the North, to the legendary Kingdoms of Arabia Felix in the South, including Saba, and even as far east as Iran and Palmyra. The three of them were very popular goddesses in Mecca at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Al-Uzza means "The Mighty One," "The Goddess of the Morning Star"; Al-Lat, means "The Goddess," and Manat, is the Crone-Goddess of Fate or Time. Sometimes the three of them are referred to as "the daughters of Al-Lah"; sometimes Manat and Al-Lat are considered daughters of Al-Uzza.

Al-Uzza, "the Strong One," was one of the most venerated Arab deities, and the goddess of the morning and evening star, Venus. She had a temple at Petra, and may well have been the patron goddess of that city. Isaac of Antioch, a 5th-century writer, calls her Beltis ("Lady") and Kaukabta, "the Star." He also says that women would invoke Al-Uzza from the rooftops, a form of worship appropriate to a star goddess. St. Epiphanius of the 4th century calls her "the mother of Dusares," the local mountain god, calling her by the title Chaamu or Chalmous, meaning "young girl" or "virgin." She has connections with the acacia tree, and her sanctuary at Nakhlah had three acacias in which she was believed to descend. She has much in common with Ishtar and Astarte as morning and evening star-goddess - they all have aspects of both the love and war goddess, and big cats were sacred to them. She is usually shown armed as a bellatrix, standing before an acacia tree, with a caracal, or desert lynx. The Greeks associated her with their aphrodite Urania, "Heavenly Aphrodite."

Al-Lat, whose name is a contraction of al-Illahat, "the Goddess," is mentioned by Herodotus as Alilat, whom he identifies with Aphrodite. She is sometimes also equated with Athena, and was called, "the Mother of the Gods." She is a goddess of springtime and fertility, the Earth-Goddess who brings prosperity. She and Al-Uzza were sometimes confused, and it seems that as one gained in popularity in one area the other's popularity diminished.

The Sun in Arabia was called shams and considered feminine - and may represent an aspect of Al-Lat. She had a sanctuary in the town of Ta'if, east of Mecca, and was known from Arabia to Iran. Her symbol is the crescent moon, and the gold necklace she wears is from a pendant identified to her. As a fertility-goddess she bears a sheaf of wheat; and in her hand she holds a small lump of frankincense, as her emblem is found carved on many incense-holders.

Manat (or "Manawayat") derives her name from Arabic maniya, "fate, destruction, doom, death," or menata, "part, portion, that which is alloted." She is a very ancient deity and her cult may precede both Al-Uzza's and Al-Lat's. Her cult was widespread, though she was particularly worshipped as a black stone at Quidaid, near Mecca. She is connected with the great pilgrimage og Hajj, as her sanctuary was the starting point for several tribes. She is known from Nabatean inscriptions, and tombs were placed under her protection, asking her to curse violators. She is accordingly a goddess of death, and maniya (death personified) is mentioned in poetry as actively bringing a person to his or her grave, holding out the cup of death. She is shown as an old woman with a cup, and the symbols at the bottom of her gown spell her name in Sabaic, M-n-t. The waning Moon is shown over her head as the symbol of the "Crone-Goddess of Death."

http://www.thaliatook.com/arabtriple.html

Black People | African Americans | Online Community

Black Chat - Black Poetry - Black Discussions - Destee