Originally posted by Aqil
There are three major religions in the world, Kemestry, and there are distinct differences between the three. For example:

Judaism, the religion of the Jews, advances the belief in a God that does not live in or near His creation.

Christianity, the religion of Protestants and Catholics, advances the belief in a God that created a human son who lived and died on this planet.

Islam, the religion of all Muslims, advances the belief in Allah (God), The Creator Of The Universe And All That Is Contained Therein, whose spirit is everywhere and in all of us. Aqil ... thanks for this list of clear, concise differences between the three major religions in the world. I realize you've been brief, but I have questions pertaining specifically to the above, so I've started a new thread, hope you don't mind.

1. Can you tell me briefly, do all three believe in an "afterlife?" Which ones do and/or don't?

2. In general, do the three above believe that the other two groups are "lost?"

Of course, folk may also debate whether these are, in fact, the three major religions (as well as any other thoughts they'd like to contribute).

Thanks :)

Of course I don't mind the inquiring female mind...:) :heart:

1. Can you tell me briefly, do all three believe in an "afterlife?" Which ones do and/or don't?

Christianity and Islam do. I am not familiar with the tenets of Judaism. A Muslim becomes a martyr if death occurs in defending Islam. It is believed that to be without life a split second is to be with Allah (God) in the next...

2. In general, do the three above believe that the other two groups are "lost?"

I don't think "lost" is the right word. Although the name of the Creator is different in the major religions, belief in one God is a common thread that binds all three. There are many gods in the Hindu and Buddhist belief systems, which is why they are considered non-religious by Christian, Jewish and Islamic theologians...

A WORD ABOUT THE WORD:

The word “religion” is derived from the Latin word “religo,” which means to tie, to fasten, or bind back. The words “ligament” and “legion” are also derived from the Latin root word “religo”...

Religion really means the scientific understanding of the Supreme Controller of the Universe; to understand the Supreme Controller and to obey His laws...

No religion – which is simply a set of externalized and formalized ideas – is indispensable. Only truth is indispensable, and truth shines with a light that is instantly and universally recognized. Unlike dogmatism, which is invariably divisive, truth has a unifying effect, because it is a manifestation of the oneness of life and being...

Thanks Aqil. Gosh, too bad we don't have someone contributing who is familiar with the beliefs of Judaism. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in this area will join in.

Okay, so we've got Christianity and Islam with an afterlife. Do those who are not in "good standing" upon death, in Islam, go to "hell," as in Christianity? What fate is promised those who do not believe the tenets of Islam?

The Basic Tenets of Judaism
I am a Jew because the promise of our faith is a universal promise.
Edmond Fleg (1874-1963), France

The essence of Judaism centers around three ideas or tenets: study of Torah, service to God, and deeds of lovingkindness.

TORAH


The Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or Tanach (in Hebrew) tells the story of the relationship of the One God to a small group of nomadic people known in history as Hebrews. The Torah, comprising the books of Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, relates how a patriarchal figure named Abraham and his wife Sarah accepted One God and “no others” through a covenant or agreement with this One God. In return for their “loyalty”, Abraham and Sarah were chosen to be the leaders of a small “nation” of people who, through numerous difficulties, missteps, and temptations, remained true to that One God.

But the story as told in the Torah is not as simple as this summary. The epochal events of the Hebrew people and the story of Abraham and Sarah and those who follow them are full of deep and complex meanings that need perpetual questioning and study in order to grasp not only what happened then—thousands of years ago—but to understand what those events mean for us today. Therefore, an essential part of being Jewish means studying the story of being Jewish. And studying Jewish texts means not just knowing the “short answers” or facts, but questioning, pondering, discussing, explaining, and re-explaining.

SERVICE TO GOD
I am a Jew because the faith of the people of Israel places above humanity, image of the divine,the Oneness of God.


One God, of course, is at the epicenter of the Torah. God is special to the Jews because Jews made a covenant to accept One God who is holy. By this acceptance, Jews can become holy—not because they are better or more important than others—but because through holiness they will be “a light unto the nations.”
God expects that the Jews, for the gift of being holy, will never waver from their convenant that declares God to be One—Adonai Echad. Being holy, however, does not mean merely acceptance of One God. It requires service to God, expressed in many ways, but above all by observing God’s special gift—Shabbat—the day on which God rested and which God gave to humans for them to rest. Setting it aside as a day different from the other six days—Jews and all humans can rest from work and therefore have a special closeness to God on that day. Observing Shabbat—a “day” that begins with the sundown and ends Saturday night—is the first step in the service to God and in the acknowledgement of God’s unique gift to humankind.






DEEDS OF LOVINGKINDNESS
I am a Jew because for the Jew the world is not completed; people must complete it.



ObservingShabbat, however, is a personal expression of service to God. So while it is “good” for the individual, it may have no tangible benefit to others. Therefore, along with study of Torah and service to God, must be deeds of lovingkindness. For without good deeds, done without expectation of payment or reward, there can be no holiness. And although Torah study and service to God are stated before deeds of lovingkindness, one must also perform good deeds that help make another person’s life better, more fulfilled, or holier.

Thanks for joining in Imhotep and Kemetstry ...

Do either of you know whether Judaism teaches about an "afterlife?" If so, what happens to those that fail to "make it in?"

I'd also like to know do all three groups think the other two are spiritually lost (for lack of a better term)?

Christianity rose out of Judaism as Christ, Himself, was a Jew - from the line of Judah. In my mind, one outstanding difference or point of departure is the recoginition of Christ as the Messiah promised in the early Scriptures. Of course there are Messianic Jews who accept Christ as the incarnate Son of God. Others still look to Elijah to herald the Messiah. The New Testament is the founding 'papers' for Christians, who see John the Baptist as the herald of Christ, our Redeemer.
On the concept of "afterlife"...I attach the following:

Question

I've often wondered what Judaism has to say about hell?... or Heaven for that matter?...

Answer

The afterlife is a fundamental of Jewish belief!

The creation of man testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah says, "And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life" (Genesis 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar
states that "one who blows, blows from within himself," indicating that the soul is actually part of G-d's essence. Since G-d's essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. (The commentator Chizkuni says this why the verse calls it "soul of LIFE.")

That's what King Solomon meant when he wrote, "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to G-d who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)

For anyone who believes in a just and caring G-d, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith) The question of "why do bad things happen to good people" has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like
this: A "good life" means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That's a good life. Anything else is "bad."

In a limited sense, that's true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.

From Judaism's perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we're going after is transcendence - the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to G-d, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with G-d. Who would be
"luckier" in terms of eternal existence? All I'm trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.

So what is the afterlife exactly?

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because
there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

So what about "heaven?"

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to G-d. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if
life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

For further study, see Maimonides' Foundations of the Torah, "The Way of G-d" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.

May the Almighty grant you blessings, success - and eternal life!

Rabbi Shraga Simmons
Aish.com

Back to Ask the Rabbi Q&A Archives

There is no such thing as a jewish religion.The proper term is Hebrew Israelites (Hebrews).The so call Jews were one of the twelve tribes of Israel.Up
until relatively recent his-story, the Jew were not considered a race or religion.

Thank you Imhotep for sharing this information with us. I noticed that much of it was from the web site, www.aish.com. I visited there and wrote to them, asking permission if we could keep their content posted here (I am adamantly opposed to using content that belongs to someone else, without permission). This was their response:

Shalom,

Thanks for asking. That's fine, as long as it says the author and Aish.com (http://www.aish.com) as it does, then you can quote as much as you want.

Kol Tuv - All the best,

Benyamin Buxbaum
Aish HaTorah Internet
Jerusalem, Israel
http://aish.com/lists/ All our Lists
http://aish.com

:)

It seems that each of the "three major religions" believe/teach of an afterlife. Based on what I read above, the afterlife for those in the Jewish faith (who do not live "properly") is not nearly as bad as the afterlife of Christians, who are hell-bound, if they don't "make it in."

Aqil, what about the afterlife for Muslims who fail to live properly? Is there a "hell" for them? How is that place described?

Imhotep, why was it such a big deal that Sammy Davis, Jr. claimed to be Jewish? Are African Americans not normally Jewish too?

Dbaraka, Welcome! :wave:
So glad to see you joining in the discussion. Please continue to share your views with us.

You all are great, thanks for sharing with me. :)

hmmmm ... no one has responded to my question about all 3 groups thinking the other 2 are "spiritually lost." Too touchy a subject fellas? :look:

Thinking on this question a little deeper, it's obvious that the answer must be yes. I came to this position, based on the fact that within these groups (at least Christians and Muslims, as I don't know much about Judaism), many think their own are "spiritually lost." Therefore, it makes sense for me to believe that they'd think those completely outside their way of thinking would be lost.

Right?

Kemetstry ... thanks for repeating it.

Are you saying they are all the same? I'm not sure I understand your answer, would you elaborate a little please?

Thanks Destee for the reminder. I understand copyright laws, and internet rights. Any information will be duly noted with credit given to the creator of the information. If you prefer, I could simply imbed the hyperlink (if I only knew how!).

Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have common roots, and one would expect, common goals. Abram (or Abraham) is the Patriarch of all three. Clearly Ishmael received God's blessing as he was led out of the camp of Abraham with his mother, Hagar. It is commonly held that Ishmael represents the 'branch' that becomes Islam. The term 'Israel' is given to Jacob and his offspring - the twelve tribes. Jesus comes through the tribe of Judah. Christianity was the beginning of salvation for Gentiles [those who were not Israelites, benefactors of the covenants].
Paul teaches us not to criticize others for their religious views. God is at work at his own pace. So we do not pronouce condemnation on anyone who believes differently. There is always the opportunity of "last minute" conversion.
Christians tend to understand that there is no way to "earn" redemption. It is a gift, freely given through Christ and his sacrifice on Calvary. In my reading and rudimentary understanding of Judaism, God Himself made a promise to Abraham and his offspring. God never breaks His word. At some time, all Israel will be called back under His divine shelter - not so much that they earned, or deserve,...but because God said He would.
At the ultimate day of judgment, there will some who will be lost and some who will be saved. This will be a matter of one's choice, it seems, for there is ample time provided to claim Jesus Christ as one's savior and redeemer. It would be the wish of every true believer, no matter what variation, that all will be saved by coming to Christ. But most importantly, ours is not to judge nor to preempt one's journey in faith.

Thank You Imhotep! :)

Actually, I'd prefer a link rather than the actual copyrighted text. Even though the www.aish.com folk were very nice, if we simply add a link, I don't have to stop and ask them. Thanks too Imhotep for providing their web site address so I could even do that!

To add a link to a site is pretty easy. All you must do is copy and paste the URL into your message. Such as, if I were going to direct you to www.destee.com :wink: that's all I'd have to do, is include the URL. The forum will automatically make it a link.

I'm not trying to judge any one of the roads that might lead to salvation (in spite of the fact that it is my understanding that there is only one). God Forbid! I know very little about these things and am really trying to learn. I think having a basic understanding of the major differences will help me (and perhaps others) be able to see them more clearly. Certainly one of the overwhelming reasons for following any path is to receive just compensation at the end. If the ends are different, then that might make a difference on which path one chooses. Not only that, these are three of the major paths, if you will, and how each views the other may also help in making that decision.

Please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be critical, just wanting to understand better.

Thanks for your contibutions. For True.

while this question does not pertain to the topic at hand, Imhotep brought up a good point in his last statement...

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At the ultimate day of judgment, there will some who will be lost and some who will be saved. This will be a matter of one's choice, it seems, for there is ample time provided to claim Jesus Christ as one's savior and redeemer. It would be the wish of every true believer, no matter what variation, that all will be saved by coming to Christ. But most importantly, ours is not to judge nor to preempt one's journey in faith.
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My question is this: There are still parts of the world who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When judgement comes, what shall be their fate.

(PLEASE NOTE: This is a systematic Theology question, not a right or wrong concept. Just want to hear some views.)

[Imhotep, why was it such a big deal that Sammy Davis, Jr. claimed to be Jewish? Are African Americans not normally Jewish too?


Destee put forth the above query. To the best of my memory, Sammy Davis, Jr. converted to Judaism. There are many notable African Americans of Jewish faith. My son's roomate in college attended the Temple faithfully and his father was an official in a synagogue.
There is evidence that Judaism was practiced in Africa as well as Christianity. Some believe the Ark of the Covenant now lies in Africa. Of course, we all recall the airlift of Hasidic (sp?) Jews from Ethiopia to Israel and their subsequent maltreatment.
It was popular belief that Sammy was disappointed in the social climate, racism and the protestant churches of the time. There is an anecdote that suggests that Sammy now was doubly discriminated against. There were country clubs and golf courses that would not allow him to play because of his religion!
The Bible even states that Moses married a Cu****e woman - clearly an African, over the objections of his sister, Miriam.
Another account states that an African eunuch was baptised and tutored by Philip (Acts).
Interesting too, that in the days of early Christianity, the Jewish leaders insisted that before accepting Gentiles into the temple, they had to first be converted to Judaism - then Christians! (Judaizers)

I thought (the way folk talked) that it was simply unheard of ... a Black Jew! I spoke with Kemetstry briefly and he too said that there are many Black Jews. I guess since Sammy was so well-known, anything he did, got more attention.

I am really learning so much from you all. While I could try to pick up a million books and read up on all of this, having your wisdom open to me is much much nicer! Thank You. :)

Dnommo poses an interesting question. I have also thought about that. To be sure, I do not have a definitive, provable answer. But I will share my thoughts.

If we presume that it was God's will that we all return to Him in Heaven, He must have a plan. We are born with a 'sense' of God within us. This is on the most primal level, to be sure. I think it is entirely possible that one can live one's life in congruity with the will of God without formal exposure. Take for example an infant who dies during childbirth. God will surely have mercy on that soul. God can save whomever He pleases!
The spreading of the gospel, as done by missionaries from the time of Christ is still a work in progress. Scholars of eschatology say that all will be in the church of Christ at the time of the final judgment.
The same question arises with respect to all those people who died before the birth and ministry of Christ. I don't have a good answer. Will they receive a special dispensation?

:eek: ooooh you posed a good one there. What about those before Christ? Well there was the forgiveness of sins through the Tabernacle. The whole process, ( i find most miss) is that the Bible says "believers" more often than anything. To me that means those who hear. Those who do not hear? Well dependent upon their spiritual beliefs, i do feel that they are not condemned to Hell simply because they have not heard.

Imhotep, i will speak more on this tomorrow. I must go. Besides, i gotta pull some books on Bonhoffer and Calvin and see how they looked at it...

Ever notice the Pope wears a skull cap just like the Jewish people? This is symbolic of the way priests in the mystery schools used to shave the backs of their heads. The more formal headgear and ritual of Judaism and Christiany are also very similar because they originate from the same source and the Pope's mitre is the fish head symbol of Nimrod.

No matter what the religion, ever notice they all suppress the female, all the male heads who founded these religions all had visions or visitations with some angel?

All religions are the same created by the same source to control, to create conflict between people, and to divide and rule the masses.

hmmmm ... no one has responded to my question about all 3 groups thinking the other 2 are "spiritually lost." Too touchy a subject fellas? :look:

Thinking on this question a little deeper, it's obvious that the answer must be yes. I came to this position, based on the fact that within these groups (at least Christians and Muslims, as I don't know much about Judaism), many think their own are "spiritually lost." Therefore, it makes sense for me to believe that they'd think those completely outside their way of thinking would be lost.

Right?

It seems as if the answer to your question most certainly is YES and this also applies to those who profees religions outside of the THREE major religions in question.

Have you noticed a small group here who constantly badger those who DO profess or adhere ot Christianity or Islamic tenets?

The reality is none of us are as spiritually FOUND as we may believe or profess and if we were most likely we would not even be 'incarnated' at this moment in Time and Space.

Ever notice the Pope wears a skull cap just like the Jewish people? This is symbolic of the way priests in the mystery schools used to shave the backs of their heads. The more formal headgear and ritual of Judaism and Christiany are also very similar because they originate from the same source and the Pope's mitre is the fish head symbol of Nimrod.

No matter what the religion, ever notice they all suppress the female, all the male heads who founded these religions all had visions or visitations with some angel?

All religions are the same created by the same source to control, to create conflict between people, and to divide and rule the masses.

I've definately noticed this!
Even in some cultures as well.(suppressing of women)

It seems as if the answer to your question most certainly is YES and this also applies to those who profees religions outside of the THREE major religions in question.

Have you noticed a small group here who constantly badger those who DO profess or adhere ot Christianity or Islamic tenets?

The reality is none of us are as spiritually FOUND as we may believe or profess and if we were most likely we would not even be 'incarnated' at this moment in Time and Space.

It seems as if the answer to your question most certainly is YES and this also applies to those who profees religions outside of the THREE major religions in question.

Have you noticed a small group here who constantly badger those who DO profess or adhere ot Christianity or Islamic tenets?


Harry, Annoy, Judging, and Name Calling. This is the Tear in Our Fabric!

Rodney King " Can We All Get Along! "

MA`AT HOTEP

We must open up our minds and our eyes...to see any thing. What do you know of any religion if you close the book and put it down and don't open it again? What little you can remember from the last time you peak at a scripture that you didn't even understand will fade away until you can only remember one thing...and that is "Jesus Loves me cause the Bible tells me so"...or something even less important.

We feel like we are being attacked when what we thought was true and real is challenged! Then we are as programed to do...ready to...go to "War"...and defend what we think we know with our life...hence...we can see what is going on all around us..."Wars and Rumors of War". Yet we except this because we have been programed and indoctrinated to do so...with out thinking for our selves on weather or not this thing makes any since.

We can only repeat what we heard because we don't study any thing outside of the "given" and we don't know how to or what to research a thing unless we are told it might bring us...more income and a better "Job". This is our only motivation...and it does not even come close to the mark of telling us any thing that will give us the knowledge of self...or Liberate us from our collective Oppressors...that gave us the book in the first place!

We are living in the time of our collective rise and it is hard for some of us to except that we have been...lied to by our kind white friends in the Lord. The fact is...they (the average white) don't know them selves...and...if they did...why would they tell you?

What is the difference in the (3) major religions?? The short and truthful answer is...nothing! Nothing that matters because they were all made up by the same people during the 325 AD council of Nicea meetings in Europe.

You have the keys to un-locking yourself from mental slavery...why won't you use them to free yourself by doing your own research into what is revealed to you??

All of us are not going to make it to tomorrows future because some choose not to...that is the only reason...and those who didn't...went the way of the dinosor because they loved and respected the system of white supremacy more than they loved and respected them selves and their black ancesotrs.

"The system of white supremacy is everything...that is taught by and through it"...this also includes their major "Tools" the major (3)..."Books" and pamphlets that supports their false "Religious" doctrins...that keep you asleep in your mind...and away from your "Spirituality"...there for also your "Liberation".

After all of the volumes, statues, myths, paintings of all of the so-called divine images of white folks...who are suppose to be holy...we may find it hard to except that none of it is true and at best only some truth (that came from us) mixed with false-hoods.

In time you will come to know what is being said is absolutely true if you are lucky. But you must know that you have to make your own luck. History is what it is...and the Bible is not a history book. Most of the things told in that book never even took place any ware except in some white persons imagination.

Now...as far as the other books...we must first ask ourselves...why does one compliment the other...when the other is telling lies? This makes any...that compliments the other...suspect at best. Then we can see that all of the controllers are in "Bed" with each other and has a concerted effort and investment in the "Slavery of the so-called African".

Islam did not come to the Mother Land with sweet words from the Qu`ran! They so-called white Arabs came with the "Sward" and murdered thousands and was the first indo-europeans to kid-nap black children into slavery and sex slaves to satisfy their sick preverted lust for black girls and young black boys in Arabia...a practice that is still going on today in the name of Allah.

When you read and study history you will know yourself...you can't know yourself unless you know history! In fact you don't know anything...if you don't know what went on in the past...and are doomed to repeat what ever happened in your ignorant future as a result. Know Thy Self

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis.htm

Ase`

You asked a very good question and a question that deserves an answer to clarify what our issues are.

1. All three religions have a common source and a source that can be proven.

2. The reality is that "Someone stole our history and created a mystery."

3. The stories and so called "spiritual writings" in all three religions are actually stolen concepts that were stolen from our ancestors in Kemet and then attached to Prophets and history that Never Took Place


4. Therefore our people are suffering from the "white over-lap" and the falsely created realities that now keep us divided as a people because "We Were Never Taught Ourstory" as a means of healing ourselves from the imposed false realities of others that we now champion as if it is ours.

5. We were purposely oppressed, conquered and enslaved by all three people or groups of people who were crafty enough to take our reality and use it against us to their benefit.

6. The tenants of all three religions can clearly be seen in the history and writings of our ancestors which proves the false reality of all three.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. We often speak of Christianity as the religion of Jesus, but the truth is that everything ever said about or attached to Jesus has nothing at all to do with Christianity. Please review the following table for yourselves where you will find more than 270 direct parallels that our people swear are Christian when in reality they are not.

http://www.masseiana.org/aeapp.htm#907

What this means is that; since this reality is a lie in one religion, then it's a lie in all three and we are the victims of the three to our own detriment as a people.

When this is digested I will continue, Thank you.

Hetep!


P.S. This one won't be leaving the front page for some time...even if I got to post to it myself to keep it up here. Yeah, some things are just that crucial!!!

I think I need to continue this with some other stuff also...such as;

THE JESUS-LEGEND TRACED IN EGYPT FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS

The messianic mystery which has caused unparalleled mental trouble to the world did not originate with, nor was the solution to be found in, the biblical collection of the Hebrew writings. The Egyptian mesu, to anoint, and as a name for the anointed, is earlier than the Jewish messiah. Nor would there have been any typical Christ the anointed but for the making of the karast-mummy.

We have to look a long way beyond these books to learn how salvation came into the world by water, or a saviour could be represented by the fish. It was thus salvation came to Egypt periodically in the new life of the Nile, and thence the saviour, who was imaged in the likeness of a fish. According to the mythical rendering Horus*Iu-em-hetep was a saviour because he came with plenty of food and water in the inundation, as the shoot of, or as the child on the papyrus. In the eschatology he represented the saviour who showed the way by which the manes might attain eternal life, when immortality was held to be conditional and dependent upon right conduct and true character.

A doctrine of messiahship was founded on the ever-coming messu, or child of the inundation in the preanthropomorphic phase of symbolism, in which the type might be the fish, the papyrus-shoot, the beetle, hawk or calf, each one of which bears witness that when the infant-likeness was adopted as a figure of the ever-coming saviour or messiah the human type was just as non-historical as any of its predecessors. The advent of the messu (the Hebrew messiah) was periodic in accordance with the natural phenomena: not once for all. Once for all could have no meaning in relation to that which was ever-coming from age to age, from generation to generation, or for ever and ever.

Eternity itself to the Egyptians of the Ritual was aeonian, and synonymous with millions of repetitions, therefore ever-coming in the likeness of perennial renewal, whether in the water-spring of earth or the day-spring on high, the papyrus-shoot, the green branch, or as Horus the child in whom a saviour was at length embodied as a figure of eternal source. At the foundation of all sacrifice we find the great Earth-mother, following the human mother, giving herself for food and drink. Next the type of sacrifice was that of the ever-coming child. Ten thousand years ago a divine ideal of matchless excellence had been portrayed in elder Horus as a voluntary [p.728] sacrifice of self not for the sins of the world, but for human sustenance.


This voluntary victim took the parent's place, and suffered in the mother's stead. Thenceforth the papyrus-plant was represented by the shoot the tree by the branch; the sheep by the lamb the saviour by the infant as an image of perpetual renewal in life by means of his own death and transformation in furnishing the elements of life. Next Horus, as the foremost of the seven elemental powers, passed into the solar mythos, where the typical virgin and child were reproduced and constellated as repeaters of periodic time and season in the zodiac.

The Jesus-legend is Egyptian, but it was at first without the dogma of historic personality. We have now to follow it in the circuit of precession, where it might be traced back to a beginning with the sign of Virgo. But for the present purpose, the birthplace of the virgin's child was in the sign of Leo when the vernal equinox was resting in the lion constellation.

The messu, or the messianic prince of peace, was born into the world at Memphis in the cult of Ptah as the Egyptian Jesus, with the title of Iu-em-hetep, he who comes with peace or plenty and good fortune as the type of an eternal youth. Here we may note in passing that this divine child, Iu-em-hetep, as the image of immortal youth, the little hero of all later legend, the Kamite Herakles, had been one of the eight great gods of Egypt who were in existence twenty thousand years ago[1]. This wondrous child, who is the figure of ever-coming and of perennial renewal in the elements of life, was also known by name as Kheper, Horus, Aten, Tum or Nefer-Atum according to the cult. He was continued at On or Annu. The title likewise was repeated in the new religion, when Iu-em-hetep became the representative of Atum-Ra. His mother's name at On was Iusaas, she who was great (as) with Iusa or Iusu, the ever-coming child, the messiah of the inundation.

Such doctrine, however, did not originate as uterine or come the human way, although it might be expressed in human terminology.

We have now to track the ever-coming child Iusa, Iusu or Jesus in the sphere of time as the son of Iusaas and of Atum, who was Ra in his first sovereignty; not merely in the round of the lesser year, but in the movement of precession as determined by the changing equinox or by the shifting position of the pole. As we have shown, the zodiacal signs were set in heaven according to the seasons of the Egyptian year and in the annual circuit of the sun. The birthplace of the inundation and the grapes was figured in or near the sign of Virgo or the Virgin, the mother of the child who brought the new life to the land in water as Ichthus the fish and in food as Horus on his papyrus. But Horus the traveller of eternity has to be tracked and followed in the movement of precession. And thus the new beginning for the present quest is in the sign of Leo.

The priests of On attributed a new creation of the world, or the heavens, to Atum-Ra. This was the cultivated enclosure or garden of a new beginning. And this garden of a new beginning or creation was visibly featured in the southern heaven. There ran the river Nile as the one water from its hidden source, as it flowed in the starry stream Eridanus, and meandered through the Aarru-garden that was [p.729] made for Atum, in the likeness of which the future paradise was represented in Amenta[2]. According to the Osirian rendering, the later Aarru-field is the garden of the grape[3]. The typical tree of life in an Egypto-Greek planisphere is the grapevine.

This is the tree still represented by the female vine-dresser and the male grape-gatherer in the decans of Virgo[4]. Orion rose up when the grapes were ripe to represent the Deliverer, who was coming 'full of wine.' The goblet or 'mixing-bowl' in which the drink was brewed to hugely celebrate the Uaka-festival of the inundation is constellated in the sign of 'Krater.' The ancient enemy of man, the evil dragon of drought, is imaged in the form of 'Hydra,' waiting to devour the virgin's child the moment it is born.

At one time the birthplace in the stellar mythos was where Sothis rose as opener of the year and herald of the inundation. This was the star of Hathor and her messu or messianic babe who came to make war on the dragon and to bruise the serpent's head. And Iusaas was a form of Hathor. The fulfilment of the primitive promises of the coming child as bringer of all good things was annual in the astronomical mythology. The babe, the birth, the birthplace and the bringer to birth, were all continued in the solar cult, from this, the starting-point, with Sothis now as the announcer of the inundation, and the life of vegetation figured as the young deliverer Horus on his papyrus, or the later Atum-Horus issuing from the lotus on the day of 'come thou to me,' the first day of the Egyptian year or new creation.

Time in the old year of the Great Bear and the inundation had not been subject to the changes in precession. In this year there was but one birthplace for the typical child who originated in Horus of the inundation as the figure of food and bringer of the water, and therefore of salvation. Also there was but one date for the birthday of the child, namely, the first of the month Tekki (or Thoth) which we equate with July 25, when the five dies non are also counted in the reckoning of the year. If Ra had not discovered the co-partnery of the Great Mother and Sebek-Horus the Fish of the inundation, and substituted the time of the sun, the birthplace of the babe might have remained for ever fixed in heaven.

Time in the ordinary year was always kept and reckoned by the recurring seasons; firstly by the inundation. In the greater year this time was rectified by the retrocession of the equinoxes and the changing position of the pole. Thus time was kept by double entry. And when the birthplace of the messianic child was made zodiacal it travelled round the backward circuit of precession to fulfil a course of twenty-six thousand years. The great year might have gone its way unrecognized but for this change of polestars or the backward lapsing of the equinoxes being observed and registered by the astronomers. It was solar time, which had to be continually revised and readjusted by means of the stars. The inundation was a fixture in relation to the earth, and a primary factor in the year of the Great Bear, the end and re-beginning of which were memorized by means of the 'Sut-Heb' or 'festival of the tail'—that is, the tail of the Great Bear as pointer at its southernmost longitude, [p.730] which was dependent on the revolution of the sphere. The Great Bear, hippopotamus or crocodile, was then the stellar bringer-forth to Horus of the inundation. But with Horus, born of Virgo in the zodiac, the birthplace of the babe was figured in the vernal equinox, and thus became subject to the changes in precession. It parted company with the lesser year of the inundation to travel from sign to sign around the circuit of the world's great year.

Fourteen thousand years ago the vernal equinox coincided with the sign of Virgo and the autumn equinox with the sign of Pisces. And here the learned writer Eratosthenes has a word to say upon this point[5]. He is a most unimpeachable witness for the Egyptians; a better could not be subpoenaed. He was born in the year 276 BC. He was keeper of the great Alexandrian library and the most learned Greek in Egypt at the time. Amongst other subjects he wrote on was astronomy, and he testifies to the fact that the festival of Isis, which was celebrated in his time at the autumn equinox, had been celebrated when the Easter equinox was in Virgo. This perfectly agrees with the position of Isis, the Virgin Mother in the zodiac. During those six months in the great year = six signs, the child as periodic fulfiller of time and season in the zodiac, together with the birth and birthplace, was receding through the six signs in precession, from Virgo to Pisces.

Thirteen thousand years later the autumn equinox coincided once more with the sign of Virgo. Now there is no meeting-point of the mythology with the astronomy more obvious than in these two signs of the zodiac. But it is impossible that this imagery should have been constellated in the planisphere the last time the equinoxes entered them, which was about the year 255 BC, where they still linger at the present moment. And the time before that, in round numbers, was 26,000 years previously.

It is a fixed fundamental fact that the death and rebirth of the year were commemorated at this time from the 20th to the 25th of July, when the birth of Horus was announced by the star Sothis or the bennu = phoenix. It is equally a fact that when the solar Horus had entered the zodiac the birthplace was shifted from sign to sign, according to the movement in precession, from Virgo to Leo, from Cancer to the Gemini, from Taurus to Aries, from Aries to Pisces. The pathway of eternity was now depicted in the circle of precession. In this the sonship of Horus was continued after the fatherhood of God had been established, and Horus became the manifestor for the eternal in the sphere of solar time.

Hence the sayings of Horus in the Ritual. 'I am Horus, the prince of eternity.' 'Witness of Eternity is my name.'[6] He calls himself 'the persistent traveller on the highways of heaven,' which he surveys as 'the everlasting one.' 'I am Horus,' he says, 'who steppeth onwards through eternity'—without stopping or ever standing still. This was Horus, otherwise the Egyptian Jesus, as the ever-coming son (Iu-sa) in all the years of time that culminated in the all-inclusive cycle of precession. Horus as the shoot, or the later wheat-ear (spica), had been brought forth when the birthplace was in Virgo. If we look on this as a sign in precession, the next birthplace in the backward course is in the sign of Leo, in which Horus was the lion of the solar power that was doubled in the vernal equinox. When the Osiris comes to witness [p.731] the judgment on the mount of glory[7], he sees 'the lion forms' called the Kherufu, which are three in number.

Two of these are figures of the Double Force, as shown in the vignette to chapter 18, and the one in the centre is the lion of the double lions = the double force, as the lion or as the solar disk. Now Atum is this solar lion on the mount which is in the equinox, and which can be thus identified with the lion-sign or sign of the lions in the zodiac. Atum is the god with the lion's face, who is also called the man-faced lion. He is said to lay the foundations of the eternal house[8]. That is, in building the new heaven which was based upon the equinoxes in the circuit of precession, at a certain starting-point, including all the previous foundations laid by Ptah and Taht, Shu and Sut, and by the first Great Mother in the heptanomis.

It is a tradition common to the Quiches, the Aztecs, the Bushmen, the Australian aborigines and other ancient races that their ancestors existed before the creation of the sun. The Bushmen say that the sun did not shine on their country in the beginning. It was only when the children of the first Bushmen had been sent up to the summit of the mount that the sun was launched to give light to the South African world[9].

So in Egypt it might be said there was no sun before the creation of Ra, when Atum issued from the lotus on the day of 'Come thou to me.' It is stated in the texts that light began with this new creation, when the sun-god rose up from the lotus; that is, the solar light which followed the lunar and the starlight which preceded day in accordance with the mythical representation. Atum-Horus sinks at evening in the waters as the closer of day, with the lotus on his head. At dawn he rises from the lotus, the opening flower of dawn. But, instead of commencing with the sign of Virgo, the present writer traces this new beginning in the solar mythos to the time when the vernal equinox was in the sign of Leo, now some 13,000 to 15,000 years ago, according to the reckoning in the greater year. By this, however, it is not meant that equal day and night were then coincident with the birth of the inundation or the heliacal rising of the dog-star on the 25th of July. The position of the equinox has to be made out according to the precessional year, not by the lesser year. This difference constitutes the difficulty of the reckoning.

The time of equinox was determined in the lesser year by the recurrence of equal day and night, but the position of the equinoxes in the annus magnus was determined by the risings of the herald stars. Amongst other figures of the god Atum, he is portrayed standing on a lion, in others he is accompanied by his mother the lioness, Sekhet or Bast. The annual resurrection of the solar god was always in the Easter equinox, and when the funeral couch is figured in the lion-form, and the rising of the dead is from the lion-bier, the fact is registered in the eschatological phase of the astronomical mythology.

It is said in the Ritual[10], 'He who lulleth me to rest is the god in lion-form.' Another note of this zodiacal beginning with the birthplace in the sign of the lion is recognizable in the arrangement of the twelve signs as double houses for the seven planets. In ancient astrology five of the planets had each one a house on either side of the zodiac excepting the sun and moon; these had but one house between the two—that is, in the [p.732] lion-sign; or rather, the lion-sign was the only double house of the zodiac, and this was of necessity founded at the place of the equinox. The double house of the astrologers is identical with the great hall of Mati, the place where the balance was always set up in whichever sign the equinox occurred for the time being. The place of the equinox was the hall of Mati, or rather the double equinoxes formed the double house of Mati.

The Egyptian founders of astronomical science did not begin with mathematical calculations. They had to verify everything by observation through all the range of periodic time, and this was the only method that was fundamental or practical at first. It was by direct observation, not by calculation, that the wise men of Egypt and Meroë attained their knowledge of precession. By ages on ages of watching and registering they perceived that the backward movement of the equinox, as immense in time as it is slow in motion, had to be reckoned with as a factor of vast magnitude; and that this long hand on the face of the eternal horologe was a determinative of the hugest cycle of all, so far as they could measure periodic time. By imperceptible degrees the movement itself had become apparent, and the point of equal day and night observed to be passing out of one group of stars upon the ecliptic into another; which sometimes coincided with a change of polestars.

We have now to trace the vernal equinox in precession, from the sign of the lion through the signs of the crab, the twins, the bull, the ram, until it entered the sign of the fishes, about 255 BC. For 2,155 years Atum-Horus manifested, as Iu-sa, the coming son in the vernal equinox, or as the lion of the double force, when this was in the constellation Leo. The next sign in precession is the crab, the Kamite original of which was the beetle,

http://www.masseiana.org/aebk12.htm

History reveals that their commonality is the "Destruction of the female Principle which of course also manifested itself on the physical level". Are you asking me to call history a liar?...and since I can not call history a liar then that means that "Our Women are the most damaged thing on the earth and our men are only damaged because she has not healed yet and the majority of her male children don't want any healing to come about.

so what does this do to no to and the flood?

I think you were asking about Noah and the flood, right?

ANCIENT EGYPT THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD



THE ARK, THE DELUGE, AND THE WORLD'S GREAT YEAR



At first sight the general effect of the innumerable deluge-legends is to suggest the existence of a primitive kind of catastrophobia resulting from fear of the water-flood. The arkite symbolism originated in the mount and tree, the cave or enclosure being a natural place of refuge when the waters were out upon the earth; and these were followed by the raft, the boat, or ark that swam the waters as a means of human safety. Before the legends of a deluge could have been formulated, the deluge as an overwhelming flood of water had become a figure used in sign-language to express the natural fact in a variety of phenomena to which the type might be and was applied. It is expressed in English still by what is termed 'a flooding.' But a deluge is not only an overflow of water.

There is a deluge of blood (both Egyptian and Polynesian). Night brings its deluge of darkness, and dawn lets loose the floods of day. The so-called deluge-legend comprises a hundred legends and a hundred applications of the same type, from one single origin in sign-language as the primitive mode of representing a fact in nature. The deluge is universal because it was not local. The human race spread out over all the earth would not have been greatly troubled about an excessive overflow of water once upon a time in Mesopotamia.

The legend is coeval with all time, and current amongst all people, because the deluge did not occur 'once upon a time.' On the grand scale it was the mythical representation of the ending and submergence of an old order of things in the astronomical mythology; but there were various distinct deluges with that meaning, and not merely one. The Egyptian deluge in the so-called 'destruction of mankind' is described as continuing for three nights and days. The time is measured by three days' length in navigation through a deluge of blood[1]. Now, three nights and days is the length of time that was computed for the monthly absence of the moon in the netherworld. Hence there was a deluge of darkness on that scale in mythology. But the deluge occurred in at least four categories of phenomena. There was a deluge of blood and a deluge of darkness, as well as a deluge of water. There is also the deluge that was a type of periodic time; and by no black art of bibliolatry can these four kinds of deluge be combined in one.

A deluge being an ending of a cycle in time, we can understand the [p.546] language of the Codex Chimalpopoca[2] concerning the flood, when it says, 'Now the water was tranquil for forty years plus twelve.' 'All was lost. Even the mountains sank into the water, and the water remained tranquil for fifty two springs.'[3] In this account, the well-known Mexican cycle of fifty two years is measured by means of a deluge at the end of the period. In inner Africa the year was reckoned by the periodic great rain; in Egypt by the inundation; and a deluge, we repeat, became the natural type of an ending in time in the uranographic representation.

In India, a solar pralaya, in which the waters rise till they reach the seven Rishis in the region of the pole, is of necessity kronian, and applies solely to the keeping of time and period astronomically. The Assyrian deluge is described as lasting seven days. This agrees with the seven days' silence in the Wisdom of Esdras[4], by which the consummation of the age, or ending of the period, was to be commemorated 'like as in the former judgments,' deluges, or endings of the cycle or age in time. The flood of Noah is on the scale of the year or thereabouts. The deluge of time, as it was called by the Chaldean magi, is a breach of continuity, a phase of dissolution. It was a period of negation that was filled in with a festival as a mode of memorialising the dies non or no time. It was a condition of the lawlessness of misrule, of promiscuous intercourse, of drunkenness, that characterized the saturnalia by which it was celebrated.

There is a Kamite prototype in 'the destruction of mankind' for the woman who is the reputed cause of a deluge in the Egyptian mythos. This is Sekhet the avenger. She is the very great one of the liquid domain. No one is master of the water of Sekhet, which she lets loose as an element of death and destruction. She was the great mistress of terror in fire and flood. In 'the destruction of mankind' it is said, 'There was Sekhet, during several nights, trampling the blood under her feet as far as Heracleopolis.'[5] Ra, the solar god, 'ordered the goddess to slay the evil race in three days of navigation.' 'And the fields were entirely covered with water through the will of the majesty of the god; and there came the goddess (Hathor) in the morning, and she found the fields covered with water, and she was pleased with it, and she went away satisfied and saw no men'[6] (i.e., none of the exterminated evil race).

This is a form of the Egyptian deluge designated a great destruction, but with no earthly application to the human race. In the African legend relating to the origin of Lake Tanganyika, that was told to Stanley by the Wagigi fishermen, it was a woman, to whom the secret of the water-spring had been entrusted, who was the cause of the deluge[7]. Possibly this woman was the earth as mother of the waters, seeing that Scomalt is the earth-mother of the Okanagaus, and that she also was charged with letting in the deluge. Scomalt is a form of the primordial genetrix, equivalent to Apt in Egypt. Long ago, they say, when the sun was no bigger than a star, this strong medicine-woman ruled over what appears to have become a lost continent. Her subjects rose against her in rebellion. Whereupon she broke up the land, and all the people but two met with their death by drowning. A man and a woman escaped in a canoe and arrived on the mainland, and from this pair the Okanagaus are descended[8].

[p.547] A starting-point in various deluge-legends is from the world all water. This originated with the firmament as the celestial water that was called the Nnu, or Nun. Now one meaning of the word Nun in Egyptian is the flood. Thus the water of heaven is synonymous with the deluge. In one aspect the deluge, as a figure in the sign-language of the astronomical mythology, was a mode of representing the sinking of the pole in the celestial ocean which was figured as the world of water. This is the world all water in the legendary lore. The flood upon which Jehovah sat as king was no other than the firmamental Nun[9]. So the throne of Osiris was based upon the flood, that is upon the Nun. In the vignettes to the Ritual Osiris sits upon the throne in Amenta as the great judge and ruler, and his throne is 'balanced' as it is described, upon the flood. Water being the primary element of life, it was also based on figuratively and Osiris with his throne resting on the water takes the place of the earlier Nnu, or later Noah, resting in his ark as master of the deep. Nnu was god of the celestial water. The wateress in one form was the goddess Nut. This, then, and nothing short of it, is the root of the matter when, as in the Navajo-Indian legend, certain persons, who are so often one female and one male, make their escape from the overwhelming waters by climbing up a reed to the land of life which, as a land of reeds, was the primal paradise, or the fields where the papyrus was in flower above the waters of a universal deluge, as represented in the veriest dawning of mythology.

We have to learn the sign-language before we can understand the nature of mythology. When it is said that Horus inundates the world like the sun each morning, that is with the light as the deluge of day. There is a white water and a black, equivalent to the white bird of light and the black bird of night, as opposite figures of Sut and Horus for the dark and the day. The evil Apap, who drinks the water cubit by cubit at each gulp as the sun goes down, is slain by Horus at daybreak, when he once more sets free the waters of light which are designated the waters of dawn. In like manner, the waters of day rush forth when Indra slays the serpent of darkness, who was thought of as the swallower of the light water of heaven. Osiris is called the 'overflower,' the 'great extender,' the 'shoreless one,' who in this imagery of the deluge 'brings to its fullness the divine force which is hidden within him.'[10] Thus, in continuing the primitive mode of thinging the concept, Osiris is the water-force personified, instead of being represented as a crocodile, which was also one of the primal types of water.

'The deluge' is only single as a type. There are various deluges known to mythology, and various agents who are held responsible for causing them. In one legend or folktale it was the mischievous monkey. In another it was the tortoise, who sank in the waters and drowned the people who had their dwelling-place upon its back. In another it is caused by the killing of a sacred bird, which might be the vulture or cygnus. In a fourth the fountains of the great deep are opened by the taking out of the star, whereupon the deluge follows. A cause of the deluge is attributed to the star-gods, Sut in Egypt and Bel in Babylonia. It was caused by a failure in keeping time, and the failure is followed in a number of legends by the [p.548] new heaven, in which the supreme timekeeper is the moon or the lunar divinity who is Taht in the Kamite representation.

Some most precious remains of the primitive wisdom now extant outside of Egypt are preserved by the oldest races of the world. Much of the matter is found amongst the people of the Polynesian islands, far more to the purpose than anything to be found in the Hindu or the Hebrew sacred books. The Samoans have what may, in a symbolical sense, be termed a deluge legend. Tangaloa, the originator of the heavens, was the builder. Of old the heavens were always falling down when they consisted of water without any bulwark or embankment. To put a limit, to build or make any firm enclosure, was to circumscribe the waters and secure a place of refuge from the dreaded deluge. In the time of Ptah, their great architect, the Egyptians were advanced enough in craftsmanship for the enclosure formed by him to keep out the waters of the deluge in Amenta to be made of either iron or steel, called the ba-metal. An ark was a primitive enclosure formed in the celestial water. This, as Egyptian, is the ark of Nnu, and Nnu is heaven, as water, also a name for

http://www.masseiana.org/aebk9.htm

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while this question does not pertain to the topic at hand, Imhotep brought up a good point in his last statement...

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At the ultimate day of judgment, there will some who will be lost and some who will be saved. This will be a matter of one's choice, it seems, for there is ample time provided to claim Jesus Christ as one's savior and redeemer. It would be the wish of every true believer, no matter what variation, that all will be saved by coming to Christ. But most importantly, ours is not to judge nor to preempt one's journey in faith.
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My question is this: There are still parts of the world who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When judgement comes, what shall be their fate.

(PLEASE NOTE: This is a systematic Theology question, not a right or wrong concept. Just want to hear some views.)

What happens to people who don’t hear about Jesus?
Posted on 1 May 2006 by Mark Wilson

"...People who have NEVER heard and been challenged

In explaining what happens at judgement, it’s not my intention to condemn anyone, but to explain the hope that is spelled out clearly in the bible. The hope of living a life forever in the presence of a loving God.

The only way to BE SURE that you’ll go to heaven is to turn away from your sinful life and turn to Christ Jesus. It is the only way TO BE SURE of salvation.
But in this post we’re dealing with those who have not heard and therefore have not rejected Jesus Christ.

NOTE: In these passages the people who symbolize not having heard about Jesus are called “gentiles”. The people who symbolize having heard and who have been challenged are called “Jews”. It’s symbolic… an illustration. (If you are Jewish, it is not my intention to offend you.)

In Romans 1 the bible establishes that everyone knows there is a God. Essentially they only have to look outside their window to know that there is a God.

For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. – Romans 1:18-21

So that establishes clearly that everyone has an idea that there is a God. Even if they are born deep inside the amazon jungle and have never heard of Jesus, they know there is a God.

Now we need to know if everyone (even if they have never heard of Jesus) will go through a judgement. Let’s skip past the passages that speak of people who KNOW that God is good and have CHOSEN to reject Him. Let’s skip to Romans 2:5-16

For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done.

So that’s pretty clear. Many many times in the bible it speaks of a judgement where people are judged according to their works and actions. Let me take a moment to clearly state that salvation doesn’t come by works, salvation comes from God exposing Himself to us and we naturally respond to Him.
He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning–for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.

This passage and many others in Romans 1 and 2 point to some basic truths:
God will judge all people according to what they have done
bad news for those who live for themselves (selfishness)
good news for those who do what is good (loving others)
But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good–for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
So both groups (jews and gentiles) will be judged and those who do good in both groups will receive glory and honor. That is clear.

That leads us to ask… what is good and bad? Can we know what is bad (or good) if we have never heard about Jesus?

God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God’s written law … Those who obey the law will be declared right in God’s sight.
That seems rough… to be judged EVEN if they don’t have God’s written law. Written. Hmmm… is there something else? If you can know God by the world around you – without ever actually meeting Him, then can you know the law without ever reading it written down?

Even when Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God’s law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.
So Gentiles who have not heard are to be judged on how they live their lives, according to the law that God has written within all of us.

The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone’s secret life. This is my message. – Romans 2:5-16

The “secret life” statement (above) refers to our thoughts and our conscience and generally to our inner life. To find out more about the law that is “written in our hearts”, you can read about what Jesus says about loving others. He said that when we love others we keep the full law. It is the central theme of Christianity...."


"3. Jews
The book of Romans indicates a possible special dispensation for the Jewish race… but that is hotly contested. Some say that they do not have to accept Christ Jesus and the God of the OT will reveal Himself to them as the OT God, bypassing the whole Jesus thing. I am sorry, but I do not see any scripture to support this. The book of Romans makes it clear, Jesus is the Messiah and that all are now children of Abraham. It also says that God will re-connect Jewish people back into the vine from which they have been cut off from. They will be restored. But the restoration MUST include them recognizing their Messiah. Jesus Christ said so Himself...."
christian.wordpress.com/2006/05/01/what-happens-to-people-who-dont-hear-about-jesus/

they all share the same similarities: they all are male dominated female hating belief systems that attempt to project the pure spirituality of the GODDESS in the form of "diluted" religion.

Ase':qqb015:

There is no difference in terms of their anti-woman perspective. There is no difference in terms of the original lie concerning their origin. There is no difference in terms of their manipulation and enslavement of our people. There is no difference in terms of where they stole their so called religious beliefs from. So in essence the only difference between them is the method of how they are controlling our people.

Originally Posted by Destee
hmmmm ... no one has responded to my question about all 3 groups thinking the other 2 are "spiritually lost." Too touchy a subject fellas?

Thinking on this question a little deeper, it's obvious that the answer must be yes. I came to this position, based on the fact that within these groups (at least Christians and Muslims, as I don't know much about Judaism), many think their own are "spiritually lost." Therefore, it makes sense for me to believe that they'd think those completely outside their way of thinking would be lost.

It seems as if the answer to your question most certainly is YES and this also applies to those who profess religions outside of the THREE major religions in question.

Have you noticed a small group here who constantly badger those who DO profess or adhere to Christianity or Islamic tenets?

The reality is none of us are as spiritually FOUND as we may believe or profess and if we were most likely we would not even be 'incarnated' at this moment in Time and Space.

Whether or not one thinks another is "lost" because of his/her spiritual beliefs, IMO, should not irrevocably prevent constructive unity among us.

Yes, as a Christian, I am taught to "spread the gospel;" but I can also "LIVE AND LET LIVE" as Destee so aptly outlined in another thread....

Hello Family,

Why does it seem difficult for us to do this, when it comes to Spirituality and Religion?

Way too often, our discussion centers on proving that someone else's life choice is wrong, rather than edifying the life choices we've made.

There is evidence of this throughout the forum.

Why, when it comes to Spirituality and Religion, do we find it so hard to live and let live?

Was it designed this way, to keep us criticizing, mocking, and denigrating each other?

Is it possible for us to simply live our own life choices respectfully, while allowing others to do the same?

What is it about religion, that makes us have to tear another down, to lift ourselves up? :heart: Destee

So, in spite of whatever differences exist amongst Christianity, Islam, Judaism and ATR, if we allow those opposing views to keep us divided then we are to blame.

...
Let's say, I had a business proposition that would generate employment and some economic growth in a Black community, like a grocery store or donated land for a community garden and if I invited MetaSaience, Nasheed, and Keita to work with me on this community asset, I have to wonder if each of us could do so for the good of the community, putting aside our different, respective, spiritual beliefs.

But, if we can't ever get past whose religion was “first” or whose religion is “eurocentric” or whose religion is the only right one for Black people, then we'll never defeat our common foe, which is the White power structure in this country and in Africa....

There are many paths to the mountain top,... Buddha

In Buddhism there are not many gods as one here stated incorrectly,.. In Buddhism there are no gods or nor a god at all.
I know that the tread is about middle-eastern religions, but I thought I would clear up this misconception.

Axe! to all. Corvo

hmmmm ... no one has responded to my question about all 3 groups thinking the other 2 are "spiritually lost." Too touchy a subject fellas? :look:

Thinking on this question a little deeper, it's obvious that the answer must be yes. I came to this position, based on the fact that within these groups (at least Christians and Muslims, as I don't know much about Judaism), many think their own are "spiritually lost." Therefore, it makes sense for me to believe that they'd think those completely outside their way of thinking would be lost.

Right?




Sister Destee,

After reading this thread, I certainly think all of your questions have been answered, and each person replying here gave excellent information. Although I am not as eloquent as our brother Aqil, I will add succintly, that these three(3) major religions are considered the three(3) sisters.