A Curse, Without Cause, Cannot Occur...

The 2nd verse of the 26th chapter of the book of Proverbs reads as follows: “As the sparrow by wandering; as the swallow by flying, so the curse that is causeless lighteth not.” In other words, a curse, without cause, cannot occur. Inculcated within this Biblical injunction is the universal law of cause and effect.

For example, the horrible bubonic plague that occurred in medieval Europe was a curse; people living in filth was the cause. The terrible swine flu virus that killed 20 million people worldwide in 1918 was a curse; the slaughtering and eating of swine flesh was the cause [see Leviticus 11:7-8]. The deadly AIDS virus – discovered in 1981 – is a curse; homosexuality is the cause. A curse occurs whenever the laws of God are disobeyed over a prolonged period of time...

As long as certain members of society continue to disobey the laws of God that are found in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, the deadly disease AIDS – which is seemingly incurable – will continue to ravage and plague this land and the world, leaving death in its wake as it begins to reach epidemic proportions...

There are two things that are forbidden by God in ALL the holy books of the world (i.e., The Holy Bible, The Holy Qur’an, The Hindu Vedic Scriptures, The Bhagavad Gita and The Torah). They are: the eating of swine flesh (pork) and the practice of homosexuality. In the Bible the law regarding the sins of homosexuality can be found in the book of Leviticus 18:22-30, which reads as follows:

“Thou shalt not lie down with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto; it is confusion.

Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things, for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled; therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, or any stranger that sojourneth among you (for all these abominations have the men done that were before you, and the land is defiled), so that the land spew not you out also - when ye defile it - as it spewed out the nations that were before you.

For whosoever shall commit them shall be cut off from their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye shall not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein. I am the Lord your God.”

(Leviticus 18:22-30, The Common Bible, RSV)

We must be realistic in attempting to solve the problem of the deadly disease AIDS. Encouraging the public to use condoms is absurd. This is tantamount to saying that it is alright to indulge in homosexual activity and have anal intercourse, but use condoms! This is immoral foolishness...

A better way of solving the problem is to isolate these abnormal people, i.e., put all homosexuals and lesbians together in some separate, designated area. As a result they will soon become extinct, because neither of these groups believe in the propagation of the human species. The fact is, homosexuals and lesbians need society, but society does not need homosexuals and lesbians...

Remember, AIDS is a curse, and a curse, without cause, cannot occur...

To be a Christian is simply to try to be Christ like. Such a scathing scapegoating of one segment of our society, viz. homosexuals with platitudes found in the Scriptures does no one any good. The power of prayer - praying that those who have strayed from the admonitions in Scripture might return to compliance and obedience is more fruitful, I believe. Of course, homosexuality is sinful. So is promiscuity, fornication and a host of other addictive behaviors. We are sinful by nature. The purpose of the Scriptural bans serves to show us how much we need a Savior. We are convicted - already - by the Scriptures.
As a matter of fact, the scourge of AIDS is killing heterosexuals at an even greater rate as the mode of transmission is not limited to sexual behavior. Innocent victims, namely our African American females, are growing in number. It is currently the number one killer of black women between the ages of 20-30.
I would be slow is passing judgment on others. To do so asks for the same or worse on ourselves. Judgment is for the Lord. Let us hope that through repentance and atonement, all can find comfort in the shadow of Jesus Christ. We all fall short of true glory. So no one can boast or condemn. God hates the sin, not the sinner.

Let me introduce you to an Islamic perspective on homosexuality:

In a Hadith (literally meaning "narrative" or "report") Abu Hurairah, a companion of Prophet Muhammad (saw), relates that the Messenger of Allah said: "If you find someone who is committing an act of liwat (i.e., homosexuality), kill the one on top and the one below..."

In another statement by the Prophet (saw) he says to "kill the doer and the one with whom the act is committed..."

Aqil ... I can't help but ask ...

If you walked in on two men having sexual relations with each
other, would you kill them?

I would have them executed...

Aqil ... you know i could press and say, that's not what the Hadith requires ... but you have said it is your best answer and it does ultimately result in the same end ... so i won't press. Thanks for the response because i felt like you might not respond at all (a small part of me felt that way, the overwhelming majority of me knew that you would).

simply whom am i to judge one fate
forth death be not
ye thou all is forgiven
except self murder.......

if all this is true then the world is bout at it's end
so much wickedness within

Kemet,

in the Christian canon, there is no stipulation of "stoning one for being gay" but the culture of the time in which the canon was scribe well showed that such a consequence would occur. But we do see that in the OT there was not an acceptance of homosexuality. It is clear right from the book of Genesis in story of Sodom:



Genesis 19:1-13, New Living Translation (for better understanding)

1That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom, and Lot was sitting there as they arrived. When he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed low to the ground. 2"My lords," he said, "come to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up in the morning as early as you like and be on your way again."
"Oh no," they said, "we'll just spend the night out here in the city square."
3But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. He set a great feast before them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast. After the meal, 4as they were preparing to retire for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. 5They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out so we can have sex with them."
6Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. 7"Please, my brothers," he begged, "don't do such a wicked thing. 8Look--I have two virgin daughters. Do with them as you wish, but leave these men alone, for they are under my protection."
9"Stand back!" they shouted. "Who do you think you are? We let you settle among us, and now you are trying to tell us what to do! We'll treat you far worse than those other men!" And they lunged at Lot and began breaking down the door. 10But the two angels reached out and pulled Lot in and bolted the door. 11Then they blinded the men of Sodom so they couldn't find the doorway.
12"Do you have any other relatives here in the city?" the angels asked. "Get them out of this place--sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone else. 13For we will destroy the city completely. The stench of the place has reached the LORD, and he has sent us to destroy it."



The main chapters in the Old and New Testament that deal with the issue of homosexuality are:

Old Testament: Leviticus 18:22, 29; 20:13; Genesis 19 (see also Genesis 18 for the context and problem of unrighteousness that existed in Sodom and Gomorrah).

New Testament: Romans 1:26-27 (Both lesbian and homosexual activities are condemned in these verses and shown as a further result of turning away from God. God only approves of monogamous, heterosexual relationships in marriage, condemning fornication and adultery before marriage and within marriage.); 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; and see also Jude 7.

just some added support for your comments...

here is the answer to some average questions about this issue. Bottom line is that homosexuality is a sin and that we, as beleivers, should follow in attempts to dispel such activity. The sin of homosexuality is larger than the faith in Jesus Christ simply because God spoke of it as an abomination before the birth of Christ. It was one of the first tenets that was delat with in the Old Testament. We should not come to the person in a convicting manner but we should make the effort to better their lives through belief in God. Homosexuality is wrong no matter how you look at it...

Calling Homosexuality a Sin Is Judging, and Judging Is a Sin.
Josh McDowell says that the most often-quoted Bible verse used to be John 3:16, but now that tolerance has become the ultimate virtue, the verse we hear quoted the most is "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Matt. 7:1) The person who calls homosexual activity wrong is called a bigot and a homophobe, and even those who don't believe in the Bible can be heard to quote the "Judge not" verse.
When Jesus said "Do not judge, or you too will be judged," the context makes it plain that He was talking about setting ourselves up as judge of another person, while blind to our own sinfulness as we point out another's sin. There's no doubt about it, there is a grievous amount of self-righteousness in the way the church treats those struggling with the temptations of homosexual longings. But there is a difference between agreeing with the standard of Scripture when it declares homosexuality wrong, and personally condemning an individual because of his sin. Agreeing with God about something isn't necessarily judging.

Imagine I'm speeding down the highway, and I get pulled over by a police officer. He approaches my car and, after checking my license and registration, he says, "You broke the speed limit back there, ma'am." Can you imagine a citizen indignantly leveling a politically correct charge at the officer: "Hey, you're judging me! Judge not, lest ye be judged!'" The policeman is simply pointing out that I broke the law. He's not judging my character, he's comparing my behavior to the standard of the law. It's not judging when we restate what God has said about His moral law, either. What is sin is to look down our noses at someone who falls into a different sin than we do. That's judging.

Q. If homosexuality is such an abomination to God, why doesn't it disappear when someone becomes a Christian?


A. When we are born again, we bring with us all of our emotional needs and all of our old ways of relating. Homosexuality is a relational problem of meeting emotional needs the wrong way; it is not an isolated problem of mere sexual preference. With the power of the indwelling Spirit, a Christian can cooperate with God to change this unacceptable part of life. Some people--a very few-- are miraculously delivered from homosexual struggles. But for the majority, real change is slow. As in dealing with any besetting sin, it is a process, not an event. Sin's power over us is broken at the moment we are born again, but learning to depend on the Holy Spirit to say no to sin and yes to godliness takes time. 2 Cor 3:18 says, "We...are being transformed into His likeness from glory to glory." Transformation (this side of eternity!) is a process that takes a while. Life in a fallen world is a painful struggle. It is not a pleasant thing to have two oppositional natures at war within us!


Homosexuality is not one problem; it is symptomatic of other, deeper problems involving emotional needs and an unhealthy self- concept. Salvation is only the beginning of emotional health. It allows us to experience human intimacy as God intended us to, finding healing for our damaged emotions. It isn't that faith in Christ isn't enough; faith in Christ is the beginning.

Q. Are homosexuals condemned to hell?


A. Homosexuality is not a "heaven or hell" issue. The only determining factor is whether a person has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.


In 1 Cor 6, Paul says that homosexual offenders and a whole list of other sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. But then he reminds the Corinthians that they have been washed, sanctified, and justified in Jesus' name. Paul makes a distinction between unchristian behavior and Christian behavior. He's saying, "You're not pagans anymore, you are a holy people belonging to King Jesus. Now act like it!"


If homosexuality doesn't send anyone to hell, then can the believer indulge in homosexual behavior, safe in his or her eternal security? As Paul said, "May it never be!" If someone is truly a child of God, he or she cannot continue sinful behavior that offends and grieves the Father without suffering the consequences. God disciplines those He loves.



Q. How do I respond when someone in my life tells me he or she is gay?


A. Take your cue from the Lord Jesus. He didn't avoid sinners; He ministered grace and compassion to them--without ever compromising His commitment to holiness. Start by cultivating a humble heart, especially concerning the temptation to react with judgmental condescension. As Billy Graham said, "Never take credit for not falling into a temptation that never tempted you in the first place."




Seek to understand your gay friends' feelings. Are they comfortable with their gayness, or bewildered and resentful of it? Understanding people doesn't mean that you have to agree with them --but it is the best way to minister grace and love in a difficult time. Accept the fact that, to this person, these feelings are normal. You can't change their minds or their feelings. Too often, parents will send their gay child to a counselor and say, "Fix him." It just doesn't work that way.


As a Christian, you are a light shining in a dark place. Be a friend with a tender heart and a winsome spirit; the biggest problem of homosexuals is not their sexuality, but their need for Jesus Christ. At the same time, pre-decide what your boundaries will be about what behavior you just cannot condone in your presence. One college student I know excuses herself from a group when the affection becomes physical; she just gets up and leaves. It is all right to be uncomfortable around blatant sin; you do not have to subject yourself--and the Holy Spirit within you--to what grieves Him. Consider how you would be a friend to people who are living promiscuous heterosexual lives. Like the Lord, we need to value and esteem the person without condoning the sin.

Aqil,

in the words of Jesus Christ (the messiah, saviour, etc...)

"let he who is w/o sin cast the first stone."

who are you or anybody to execute or desire execution of another, seeing that you yourself are a sinner also.
Maybe you're not a homosexual, but you're something else.

true, in the Old Testament (namely the Torah) God issued a death penalty for the immoral acts of homosexuality under LAW,
however.. HOWEVER if you know the bible (God's living word)
then you would understand that we are under GRACE.

even Christ said,
"i have come for mercy and not sacrifice."
trust, many homosexuals b/c of this grace have converted into the natural design/order of creation (Donnie Mcclurkin for one). Yet you and your blood sickening mentality not of Christ would rather sacrifice instead of have mercy. but i don't stone you, i just don't condone you.

i am thankful to the Most High God that he has mercy on all men (including you) regardless of their sins.
As King David said "if you o God should mark iniquity, who will stand??"
but he doesn't mark iniquity.

if i must i will clearly explain why such laws and penalties were stiff in the old testament. to those who have the holy spirit it is plain to see what God has done.

please...PLEASE do not be so hasty to distort senselessly the word OR the ways of God w/o understanding..

peace.

Here is what the Bible says:

“Thou shalt not lie down with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto; it is confusion.

Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things, for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled; therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, or any stranger that sojourneth among you (for all these abominations have the men done that were before you, and the land is defiled), so that the land spew not you out also - when ye defile it - as it spewed out the nations that were before you.

For whosoever shall commit them shall be cut off from their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye shall not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein. I am the Lord your God.”

(Leviticus 18:22-30)

In my conversation with Destee she said:
Aqil ... I can't help but ask ... If you walked in on two men having sexual relations with each other, would you kill them?My answer was that I would have them executed. However, let me qualify that by saying that yes, I would have them executed if I were living in an Islamic country and was functioning in an authoritative and/or judicial capacity...because homosexuality is forbidden in Islam.

If I am just a citizen in an Islamic country and I caught two men having sexual relations with each other...well, that would depend on whether or not I had the capability of taking their lives. If not, I would certainly report them to the authorities, because homosexuality is forbidden in Islam.

One more thing. Homosexuality is also forbidden according to the laws of Christianity, however, and unlike Islam, these laws are not enforced...

jehiah:

God's grace is everlasting, and so are His laws...

"Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people."

Prophet Muhammad (saw)

THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHET, Sir Abdullah Al-Mamun Al-Suhrawady, Citadel Press, 1990, p. 114

peeps,

'sall love.

"Nowhere did he go against condemnation of gays." - Kem

*grabbin' the scriptures and my grandpops' fred sanford lens*
:cool:

now Jesus' whole purpose for coming and going was not to condemn, but to save anyone. i'll show reference in a second.
kemetstry, use common sense.
if He, Christ is your saviour, then what is are you being saved from??
condemnation
one thing a lot of people do is level one sin above another when sin in God's eyes is just what it is- sin.

what is condemnation and what did Christ have to say about condemnation??
to condemn according to Strong's and Webster's dictionary is to (1) disapprove of strongly (2) to declare guilty (3) to inflict penalty upon (4) to doom

God set (concerning all people and of all preferences) the reason for his whole mission and walk on earth in John 3:17 and 18,
" For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

tell me before i jump to 18,
who and what people does he condemn??
and to whom and what people does he bring salvation??

so you see that his sole purpose is to bring salvation, not condemnation. use your common sense .

18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

this goes for the "gay" (no pun) as well as the str8.
nowhere does God single out a homosexual from the rest of sin or sinners.

my quotes are properly placed b/c i understand, and to be a true practitioner of faith, you have to practice mercy and not execution.

now homosexuals as well as fornicators (as Paul put it) were cast out of the church with Paul's hope that they would forsake their perversions and reenter into the holiness and nature of God's temple. if i must i will cover dat 2.

i am in awe that alleged christians as yourself will throw a stone to kill before you would offer a balm to heal.

i meant the previous post in response to kemetstry.

Aqil,

allow me to clear the mental air for a sec.

you last posted "Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people "

you may make homosexuals bitter when you talk about executing them and i heard they "stick" together.
just playin'.

question:
in God's eyes, are you worthy to live??
if so why??
if not, then why are you here??

you truly don't understand leviticus.
if i have to so that people who might read won't be mislead and blinded
by your continuous display of lack of knowledge of leviticus or the whole torah and new testament , i will offer a full study to be read.

i say this peacefully Aqil, as you continue to quote the holy words of the Bible-
if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you will read and not understand,
quote, but not recieve.

w/o the Holy Spirit and it's knowledge, we all are blinded, trust.

Christ the solution
no execution

peace.

Jehiah says:

"Question: In God's eyes, are you worthy to live?"

Yes, since I was created in the image of God. How about yourself?

"If so why?"

See above...

"If not, then why are you here?"

Your question is moot...

"You truly don't understand Leviticus..."

How do you know what I "truly don't understand?" And who are you tell me what I "truly don't understand?"

"If I have to so that people who might read won't be misled and blinded by your continuous display of lack of knowledge of Leviticus, or the whole Torah and the New Testament, I will offer a full study to be read."

Well now, we patiently await your input, Jehiah...

"I say this peacefully Aqil, as you continue to quote the holy words of the Bible - if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you will read and not understand; quote, but not receive."

The holy spirit is the form that God lives in the human body...

"W/o the Holy Spirit and its knowledge, we all are blinded, trust."

:confused:

"Christ's the solution, no execution..."

So says Jehiah, which makes your ending statement a personal opinion...


I corrected a few grammatical and punctuation errors in your
responses. I know you don't mind...:)

Aqil,

my question to you was "in God's eyes are you worthy to live"
and your reply was as you wrote "Yes since i was created in the image of God. How about yourself?"

i only asked this to see if you (a sinner) thought of yourself more worthy to live than a homosexual (a sinner) seeing that you both are created after His image.
if being created after His image is why you should live as you put it, then a homosexual should also live and not be executed as you would have, for he too is created after his image.
now in all truth of who you both are (sinners), if judgement was executed,
how will you escape execution any more that he??
i've noticed how 2 rotten plums fell from the same tree, but they were not rotten in the same places. Still, they both fell.

by no means were my words stated to belittle or demean
i said it b/c you don't understand leviticus' purpose by design, and you don't.
it's a complex yet simple subject.
but if i may use your own quoting by prophet muhammad
[B] "say what is true although it may be bitter or displeasing to people."

oh yeah, and continue to await the input of jehiah (strictly in context of the Bible)for it shall come in any given sec. :wink:

you said "the holy spirit is the form that God lives in the human body."

wrong, the BREATH is the form that God lives in the human body.
allow your eyes to be open to this;
our bodies live and move by his breath (Gen 2:7, 6:17, Job 33:4, Ez. 37:5, etc...)
[B] i correct you humbly. the Holy Spirit is the form that God lives in the human heart and not the body.
however the body which held breath will perish and the "spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:7)
the Holy Spirit gives life eternally although the body perishes. ( 1 Peter 3:18)
As Jesus was journeying toward Bethany to raise Lazarus from death he enlightened Lazarus's sister saying, "I am the ressurection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

life, when spoken of in the Bible, is moreso used in an eternal sense of reference than a physical sense which is apparent just by this one verse.
So, the Spirit is eternal, just as life is for those of whom indwells this Spirit.

The Spirit of God is significant throughout the O.T and N.T as energy, air, wind, respiration, power, and force which all were present in creation of beasts, the making of earth and what it contains.
plant life and wild life creations hold breath and oxygen but not the Holy Spirit. in the bible the Holy Spirit is more attributive to a person in it being called a counselor, comforter, redeemer, etc....
all things with breath and oxygen die. The Holy Spirit is the seal of/for eternal life for whom It indwells.

as for terrorists, murderers, thieves, etc..
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit.
or do they in your eyes??
besides Aqil, i am not speaking "body" language as you misunderstood it but moreso of the heart which is reborn after the Holy Spirit.
it changes your way of life and direction

i would hope that you are not still confused and discombobulated when i say that w/o the Holy Spirit we are all blinded,
for by Him we search and know the deep things of God as written and evident.

so you didn't like "Christ the solution, no execution" thing huh??
o.k i'll revise it. "Aqil the execution, no solution."
boy, i can see by these 2 mottos that you'd have more votes for office. :uhoh:

you said "( I corrected a few grammatical and punctuation errors in your responses. I know you don't mind....")
Aqil, it's punctuating errors, not punctuation which in all of your scholastic and flawless use of English grammar failed to use the word as an adjective using a noun instead.
see me, i use intervals, punctuation marks and lower/uppercase letters where it pleases me. i call it "mebonics". :cool:

peace.






































and stop biting my "mental air" thingy, i know it was tyte..
:cool:

ss

"i only asked this to see if you (a sinner) thought of yourself more worthy to live than a homosexual (a sinner) seeing that you both are created after His image..."

I never told you that I was a "sinner," so how do you know this?...Are you a homosexual?

"if being created after His image is why you should live as you put it, then a homosexual should also live and not be executed as you would have, for he too is created after his image..."

Homosexuality is a sin...it is forbidden in all the major religions of the world. In most Arab and Muslim countries it is punishable by death because it is forbidden in Islam.

"now in all truth of who you both are (sinners), if judgement was executed, how will you escape execution any more that he??
i've noticed how 2 rotten plums fell from the same tree, but they were not rotten in the same places. Still, they both fell."

Don't be silly. Why would judgment be executed on one who obeys the laws of God? And puhleeaaze...rotten is rotten, period...whether on or off the tree! :rolleyes:

"by no means were my words stated to belittle or demean
i said it b/c you don't understand leviticus' purpose by design, and you don't. it's a complex yet simple subject...

Again I ask: Who are you to tell me what I don't understand?

"but if i may use your own quoting by prophet muhammad:
'say what is true although it may be bitter or displeasing to people.' "

Well?????

"oh yeah, and continue to await the input of jehiah (strictly in context of the Bible) for it shall come in any given second.."

Big deal... :o

"you said, 'the holy spirit is the form that God lives in the human body.' wrong, the BREATH is the form that God lives in the human body. allow your eyes to be open to this: our bodies live and move by his breath (Gen 2:7, 6:17, Job 33:4, Ez. 37:5, etc.)

"And the LORD GOD formed manof the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." (Gen. 2:7)

"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under Heaven; and every thing that is in the Earth shall die." Gen. 6:17 (Noah makes the Ark)

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Job 33:4 (Elihu reproves Job)

"Thus sayeth the LORD God unto these bones; Behold I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live." Ezekiel 37:5 (The Valley of Dry Bones)

I stand on what I said...

"i correct you humbly. the Holy Spirit is the form that God lives in the human heart and not the body..."

And I humbly correct you. One loves with the mind, not with the heart. The sole purpose of the heart is to pump blood. To see with the heart is to believe; to see with the mind is to know...

"as for terrorists, murderers, thieves, etc..
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit
they hold breath and no Holy Spirit.
or do they in your eyes?"

Terrorists, murderers, thieves, white supremacists, slave owners, homosexuals, lesbians, transvestites, dope dealers, crackheads, murdering and thieving Israeli Jews, pimps, hustlers, prostitutes...they hold breath and no holy spirit...

"besides Aqil, i am not speaking "body" language as you misunderstood it but moreso of the heart which is reborn after the Holy Spirit. it changes your way of life and direction

:confused:

"i would hope that you are not still confused and discombobulated when i say that w/o the Holy Spirit we are all blinded, for by Him we search and know the deep things of God as written and evident."

:confused: You have personalized the holy spirit...which is incorrect.

"so you didn't like 'Christ the solution, no execution' thing huh?? o.k i'll revise it. 'Aqil the execution, no solution.' boy, i can see by these 2 mottos that you'd have more votes for office.

You're being silly again. However, I'll say this...in those countries where homosexuality is forbidden, there is no AIDS crisis...

"you said: 'I corrected a few grammatical and punctuation errors in your responses. I know you don't mind...' Aqil, it's punctuating errors, not punctuation, which in all of your scholastic and flawless use of English grammar, you failed to use the word as an adjective - using a noun instead.

However, Oh Enlightened One, punctuation is an act or instance of punctuating, according to the dictionary...

"see me, i use intervals, punctuation marks and lower/uppercase letters where it pleases me. i call it "mebonics."

peace."

I'm quite sure that you were taught correct English in school.


Peace.

lemme make myself clearer;

the word spirit in aramaic/hebrew is neshamah which means a puff, i.e. wind , vital breath , divine inspiration , intellect, etc...

(notice the oneness of definition in breath/spirit)

so it is safer to say that the breath/spirit (not holy) is the form that God lives in the human body.

where is "holy" in this definition??


in greek the word spirit is phantasia or phantasm
which means a (mere) show , or vain show (fantasy), etc...

it is weird how the body is a show, vain, a fantasy but yet this is how the word "spirit" is defined in hebrew and greek.

understand and see that holy is in neither one of these words' definitions.

why???
b/c men were perfect before sin and there was no known or existing sin by which they could consecrate i.e. or make themselves holy.

NOW according to the bible our Spirit has become holy when we are born of water and of Spirit as written, or by accepting Christ and recieving the person of the Holy Spirit....

kemetstry,

when you say condemn , it primarily means to "strongly
disagree with" (2) " to declare guilty" , etc....

by definition, it is no argument at all that Peter and Paul condemned the gay life choice, as did Christ himself.
i condemn it seriously.

tell me. between Paul, Peter and Christ which one of these men ever declared execution of "gays"???

execution : 1 a carrying out, performing, etc. b) a putting to death by a legal sentence 2 the manner of performing

quote verse and reference where they personally stated the
desire to murder gays.

one more thing;

it's funny that you mention Paul- an ex executioner.
Paul did not walk physically with Christ, now did he? of course not.
he, Paul walked spiritually in Christ. as he put it "as of one born out of due time" and not being there in the flesh, but very well so in the Holy Spirit.

c'mon Kem,
i do not expect (who i believe is a Christian)you to lack in this much spiritual knowledge as any one who wasn't a believer would.

anyway begin to quote verse and reference :cool:

Originally posted by Aqil
My answer was that I would have them executed. However, let me qualify that by saying that yes, I would have them executed if ... With all due respect Aqil, the Hadith leaves no room for "ifs." It clearly states, as you so graciously provided, what one should do upon witnessing such an act. It does not say if you are in a Muslim country, or if you are ... anything. It does not say "have them executed" it says kill them. Why are you able to make these modifications (qualifications) and still be in good standing?

I'm surprised that I am even arguing this point, because I don't think I should take anyone's life (certainly for the reasons we are discussing). I believe that God is more than able, to take that which he has given, without any assistance from me.

I am pressing on with this conversation because you allowed me (by posting an additional response) and I am thoroughly enjoying challenging you (especially since I'm gonna win). :)

Glad to have you aboard, my dear...:heart: :)

With all due respect Aqil, the Hadith leaves no room for "ifs." It clearly states, as you so graciously provided, what one should do upon witnessing such an act. It does not say if you are in a Muslim country, or if you are ... anything. It does not say "have them executed" it says kill them. Why are you able to make these modifications (qualifications) and still be in good standing? First I must correct you re: your response. I quoted a hadith in which was reported the Prophet's comments when asked about witnessing such an act. Hadiths are a collection of writings and reports of those who were his closest companions during his life, not Islamic law...

Secondly, let me add this caveat. I can't imagine - under any circumstances - witnessing such an act, and that qualifies my answer to your if question that you "couldn't help but ask."

You proffered a hypothetical question, which prompted a hypothetical answer, because much would depend on my particular status if such a hypothetical occurred...e.g., who I was; where I was, etc.

Now if you were referring to the present time, and in this country, I would definitely have to consider my personal situation since Islamic law is not recognized here.

I know that you expect honesty, definitiveness and preciseness in my answers to your questions, and I appreciate and respect your inquiring mind.

(Btw, the difference between killing someone and having someone killed is minute, since the end justifies the means...)


Welcome aboard, Destee, and enjoy the ride! :heart: :)

Originally posted by Aqil
Glad to have you aboard, my dear...:heart: :) Thank You! :heart: :)
Sorry for the delay in responding, but arguing with you is not to be done in haste or without much forethought!Originally posted by Aqil
First I must correct you re: your response. I quoted a hadith in which was reported the Prophet's comments when asked about witnessing such an act. Hadiths are a collection of writings and reports of those who were his closest companions during his life, not Islamic law...I am not familiar with Hadiths or Islamic law. Thank you for the explanation. Please tell me, are there any of the Prophet's words / comments (Hadiths) that are to be lived by? If so, why not all? In addition, your explanation seems to lessen the value of this (and perhaps all) Hadith. Is that your intention?Originally posted by Aqil
Secondly, let me add this caveat. I can't imagine - under any circumstances - witnessing such an act, and that qualifies my answer to your if question that you "couldn't help but ask."If you believe and live by the teachings of the Prophet, then it does not qualify your answer, in my opinion. The Prophet does not leave much to one's imagination. Therefore, the fact that you can't imagine it, means very little.Originally posted by Aqil
You proffered a hypothetical question, which prompted a hypothetical answer, because much would depend on my particular status if such a hypothetical occurred...e.g., who I was; where I was, etc.Yes, it was a hypothetical question, based on the clear instruction of this Hadith. For example, the bible says, "thou shalt not kill." If you ask me, "Destee, would you kill someone?" and I am trying to live by the teachings of the bible, my response should be "no," plain and simple. Of course if and when the occasion arises, I will have to deal with the circumstances at hand (hopefully passing all tests of my faith). Don't you think?Originally posted by Aqil
Now if you were referring to the present time, and in this country, I would definitely have to consider my personal situation since Islamic law is not recognized here.You presented it in the present time, and in this country, so yes, I am referring to both. Why offer "evidence" for your argument that has no relevance in this present time (and country)?Originally posted by Aqil
I know that you expect honesty, definitiveness and preciseness in my answers to your questions, and I appreciate and respect your inquiring mind. Yes, I expect all of these things. As a matter of fact, if I ever saw any less than that, I'd be writing to you saying someone has stolen your password and they are responding as though they are you! Thank you for receiving me exactly as I knew you would. :)Originally posted by Aqil
(Btw, the difference between killing someone and having someone killed is minute, since the end justifies the means...)The difference may be minute, but since we count all things (and we do count all things, right?), we must also count this minute difference you are making regarding the instruction of this Hadith.Originally posted by Aqil
Welcome aboard, Destee, and enjoy the ride! :heart: :) I certainly feel like I'm on a ride (a bumpy one)! Oh Gosh! I am way out of my league (debating with you on this subject), but I am having a wonderful time! Thank you for making what would otherwise be considered suicide, a joy! :kiss: (is kissing allowed!? :eeek: )

Aqil, please feel free to back out of this conversation at any time. :wink:

Kemetstry ... I disagree with you.

Jeremiah 31:3 - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

In order to be loving and kind to someone, prior to their being drawn, implies "tolerating" them. And leave me alone about my long winded-ness ... I'm working on that! :mad:

:)

Not even an effeminate man shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Please point me to the scripture that supports that statement!

I'm not suggesting that one does not have to give account for all that they do. If Christ thought like you, the thief on the cross would have never made it in. As long as there is life in a body, there is a chance for redemption. And on that day, it will not be you or me or any of us that will do the judging ... so quit tripp'n ... jeeeeeeez!

Originally posted by Destee:
Please tell me, are there any of the Prophet's words/comments (hadiths) that are to be lived by? If so, why not all? In addition, your explanation seems to lessen the value of this (and perhaps all) Hadith. Is that your intention?Just as Christians are to live by the words of the Bible and the great prophet Jesus, Muslims are to live by the words of the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad...

It would never be my intention lessen the value of any hadith. They have been debated by Islamic scholars for centuries, and are still being debated. Nowhere in my responses did I say that I wouldn't kill them...just considering the times and civility in conjunction with my answer to your question.

And ok, I'll rephrase my statement: "There is no difference in killing a person and having a person killed..."

So in essence my answer to your question is yes...:)

You know Aqil, it's kind of like the woman that asks the man she loves, "Do you love me?" His response is, "I feel love for you." Then she presses, "No, that's not what I asked!" I asked, "Do you love me, yes or no?!" Staring as he ponders, finally he says, "Well, if I must pick one or the other, the answer is no."

Ya feel me?

I'm not pressing anymore ... today :)

Thank you for your response.

It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to attempt to defend homosexuality...or promiscuity, fornication, incest and a list of other sexual sins. But let us not forget to separate the sin from the sinner. We are, by nature, sinful. There is always the option for repentance and atonement for our transgressions against God. Forgiveness and redemption have been purchased by Jesus Christ.
Though we don't fully understand the cause of homosexuality, we do have the ability to control our behaviour. The homosexual knows he or she is different, with respect to selection of their love object. The test and requirement of God's discipline is that one does not yield to behaviour which is clearly in rebellion against God's will.

I Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of youI included the scripture above, thanks Kemetstry for directing me to it. If I may, I'd like to add the following:Matthew 7:1-4 - Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?I suppose there are some so righteous, so sin-free, so sure of their holiness, that they can spend time pointing out where others fall short, rather than searching themselves. I am not one of them, for I must pray always that I be counted worthy.Luke 21:36 - Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I'm not validating it, simply saying that God has given us all the ability to make choices in our lives. It is their choice to sleep with whomever they please. It is your choice to condemn, cast out, shun, excommunicate all that you please. It is my choice to love all, in spite of their shortcomings, for I was loved in spite of mine.

He will separate the wheat from the tares.

Leviticus 20:13
"`If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Leviticus 18:22
"`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.


1 Corinthians 6:9, 10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Ephesians 5:5

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[1]


Now i know these passages have already been quoted but i restate them for a reason. The discussion here has sort of lost it's purpose. Destee, you views on it are YOUR views but your interpretation of the scripture is wrong. Forgive me but there is no inheritance for those whop continue in such acts of sins against their bodies and GOd. While we constantly seek to find a reason for why they are the way they are and also continue to accept their practices it is stated many times over in the Bible where such acts caused them to be cast out of Holy Lands. If we are to change their ways we must enbrace them but to sit back as say that it is their choice and God will seperate the wheat from the tares then you must realize that those who do not attempt to spread the Gospel to such will face just as much judgement as those commiting the sins. The bottomline line is we must be iether hot or cold but not lukewarm or "sitting on the fence." Understand they are gay but don't accept the practice because they want us to compromise our faith in order to accept them. that should not be. Nothing on this Earth should force us to compromise our faith because THAT is what will gain us access to our inheritance. Truth be told, they are confused and we, as believers must help them to see the light without condemning them. It can be done.


Basically this subject has created good thought and insight but the truth is, homosexuality is wrong and we are not to accept it and ignore it but guide them down the path of righteousness. The mindset of "everyone makes their own choices" led to the destruction and downfall of Sodom, one of the heavily homosexual cities. Yes God gave us a will but it was done so that we could follow HIM willingly not accept every sin as taboo and be concerned about ourselves...

I must go for my day is ending. I may continue at a later date...

Overall this is a good topic...

My views are certainly mine and you're entitled to think I'm wrong. Nonetheless, I stand by them. I'm sure you guys will do the same regarding yours.

This discussion is getting interesting, indeed. I applaud Destee for her compassion and Christ-like willingness to allow for His forgiveness, grace and mercy. None of us - not one - can earn salvation through works, deeds or knowledge. It is a free-flowing, pre-purchased gift from our Creator which awaits all who believe.
What Kemetstry and Dnommo point out is precisely what the Old Testament does - it convicts us of our sinfulness. Penalties described, representing the wrath of God, were exacted upon the transgressors. Since Christ - and that is the present distinction - we(sinners) have won a reprieve through the blood of the Perfect Lamb of God - Jesus Christ.
Of course transgressors are in danger of severe judgement, if they do not repent and atone for their sins, and look to Christ for his grace and mercy.
Recall the dialogue Jesus had with the Jews in John 8. The adultering woman was saved from stoning, as prescribed in Mosaic law. The words ring loud and clear today: " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

kemetstry,

" the condemnation of the gay life choice does not change for old testament, to the new, to the koran. The penalties might.
But the punishment is not."

wrong.

the penalty is death (moreso spiritually) and always has been and will be.
the punishment is moreso internal, and not execution.
believing in Christ, one must conduct as he did; condemn toward righteousness, not toward death or execution (as you and Aqil once were cyber speakin'.)

in either case, whatever action that is taken has to be in mindset of love and progressing that individual(s) to the way of God; tolerating him/her, but not tolerating at all their gay lifestyle.

kemetstry, for the record;
you can't compare the koran with the bible. 2 different aspects- 2 different beliefs- 2 different attitudes point blank.
Mohammad says kill gays. Christ says heal gays.

And God says NO gays...

Originally posted by Destee:
You know Aqil, it's kind of like the woman that asks the man she loves, "Do you love me?" His response is, "I feel love for you." That question would never be asked if both know the true meaning of the word...

There are three major religions in the world, Kemestry, and there are distinct differences between the three. For example:

Judaism, the religion of the Jews, advances the belief in a God that does not live in or near His creation.

Christianity, the religion of Protestants and Catholics, advances the belief in a God that created a human son who lived and died on this planet.

Islam, the religion of all Muslims, advances the belief in Allah (God), The Creator Of The Universe And All That Is Contained Therein, whose spirit is everywhere and in all of us.

Imhotep,

once again you have talented allowed your foot to be inserted in your mouth. If you reread my comments you will see that I quote Levitical teaching and New Testament teachings of Paul, who, as a dual citizen of the Pharisidical lineage, did not follow nor abide by the teaching of Leviticus. Why did i mention this? Simple. Because Paul does not foolow the Mosaic teaching in the Old Testament, his views on such concepts were reflective of his teachings from Christ. But this is another topic.

Destee and Imhotep, you both are not seeing the big picture. Forgiveness comes after one repents of his/her sins. If we walk in this "all are forgiven" premise then you are missig the point of the great commision in Matthew 28. Even more specific the teching of Christ in his meeting with the woman at the well. If you walk in the belife that no matter what we do we are forgiven then what is the purpose of constnatly seeking God and repenting of our sins? Why even get involved in a relationship with God if our sins are already forgiven. Why attempt to teach others with the gospel if they sins are already forgiven? You may not like it but this is what you stand on. Christ died ont he cross for the "remission of sins" but that did not remove our sinful nature. THere are plenty of people who still do not know of God much less Christ who are still wrapped in confusion. Then there are the ones who know of God, who know of Christ and arer still committing acts, such as homosexuality that is implicitly wrong in the New Testament. Imhotep, i think we had this discussion before but your concepts are clouded dy your views. That is typical.

Chrsityianty should not have a soft hearted stance. PERIOD. While we should not CONDEMN them for their practices we should also not CONDONE them either. God still loves them but when it comes to entering heaven? That is not so if God does not have an "intimate relationship" with you and that can only happen when we surrencder ourselves to God and walk in HIS ways. What does that mean? GIVING UP HOMOSEXUALITY. Your faith in GOd should make you feel guilty and ashamed of such actions when you do them. It is in the Bible. The whole bible not just the Old Testament which i quoted so easily.

Destee, your views are your views and no one will try to change that but simply put if you are going to preach the gospel to non-believers then you must be certain of your convictions. As a beliver, an example of God's work in you, there are certain you must be careful of (not avoid, be cognizant of). First of all, you arer being watched by every non-beleiver out there who is seeking to find reasons not to walk the same path as yours. The word says to not give the impression of wrongdoing. When Jesus sat with sinners, his naysayers found it wrong because in the New Testament times, when you had dinner with someone it meant that "you accepted their lifestyle." No matter how you interpret WWJD, you must remeber that He said that He did not come the heal those who are not sick. Neither are we. Homosequality is a sickness and sickness must be done away with. PLEASE NOTE: I AM NOT CONDONING THE DESTRUCTION OF PEOPLE BUT OF THE ERADICATION OF THE ILLNESS, THROUGH PRAYER, TEACHING AND SUPPLICATION.

Embrace them but don't agree with their lifestyle and also don't sit back and say "hey we all have a choice in life" because if they were sent your way so that you could be a light in their life and you don't do what you are asked, well, then, you will stand in judgement before God about it. We must reach those that God called us to. We must reach out to those God sent our way. if we don't then we will answer for their lives.

j'hiah,

Christ says heal gays. - My point exactly...This si the most basic and strongest comment made so far. It's not about killing gays or loving gays. It 's about the healing process.

Imhotep again, you spoke of salvation and yet you haven't dealt with the relationship between the believer and God. Our salvation is not in question for that comes in the confession of Christ as our personal saviour. what we are talking about is those who have taken on an alternative lifestyle and are not seeking God nor Christ. There is no compromise. God does not compromise. His word has not changed since it was spoken. Man's interpretation has chancged simply because the rules are too strict for man to deal with. Salvation is another forum topic...

Let's stick to the premise of this forum shall we?

NEW BOOK TALLIES WORLD RELIGIONS

By Richard Ostling
AP Religion Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - Christianity remained the world's biggest religion while Islam and the non-religious population posted notable increases in the 20th century, according to a major religious reference book.

Hinduism showed a slight gain relative to world population during the century, but Buddhism and Judaism lost ground. The biggest declines occurred among traditional ethnic creeds, especially in China and Africa.

The trends are reported in the second edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press), a compilation of statistical estimates and descriptions for each religious group in each nation.

"Christianity has become the most extensive and universal religion in history," the encyclopedia states, and has a majority of the population in two-thirds of the world's 238 countries. In addition, "Christianity has become massively accepted as the religion of developing countries in the so-called Third World."

Even so, no one in 1900 would have predicted the sweeping defections from Christianity that took place "in Western Europe due to secularism, in Russia and later Eastern Europe due to Communism, and in the Americas due to materialism," the book says.

Christianity began and ended the century as the world's biggest religion, the encyclopedia says, with 555 million believers in 1900 or 32.2% of world's population and 1.9 billion or 31% as of last year.

Counted Christians are divided among 33,820 denominations or similar distinct organizations. Some 386 million believers are in "independent" churches apart from the historic Catholic Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant branches, the book reports.

Christians counted as belonging to other groups have quadrupled since 1970, with huge increases noted among pentecostal and charismatic movements. Islam ranks second, and during the last century grew from 200 million - or 12.3% of the world's population - to 1.2 billion, or 19.6%.

The total for non-religious people increased from a negligible 3 million in 1900 to today's 768 million or 12.7% of the world's population. Other current totals: Hinduism, 811 million; Buddhism, 360 million; Sikhism, 23 million; and Judaism, 14 million.

In the United States, while there is considerable disagreement over numbers for non-Christian religions, the encyclopedia lists 5.6 million Jews, 4.1 million Muslims (a more than fourfold increase in 30 years), 2.4 million Buddhists and 1 million Hindus. There are 192 million people in U.S. Christian groups.

The lead editor of the 1,700-page work is the Rev. David B. Barrett of Richmond, Va. He has specialized in religious demographics since 1957 and leads the Global Evangelization Movement, a research center in Richmond, VA that collects its data from a wide variety of sources...

Accorcing to the article, both Buddhism (correct spelling) and Hinduism are considered non-religious entities...and according to Islamic governments there are nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world today. The Muslim population of Russia alone is over 60 million! In other words, at least two out of every six persons in the world is Muslim, which is one of the reasons why the name “Muhammad” is the most common name in the world...

okay Aqil, you posting some mad info here...

See i need to get you, Kemet, me and Amun-Ra in a closed room and just let everybody :puke2: all the information our minds can hold...

no i'm les' jokin. I am definitely enjoying the information posted here but right now i wanna post a little bit of bible studies for those who are missing the point of what's wrong with homosexuality.

1 John 1:5-10 Fellowship with Him and One Another

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

In the Scriptures, light and darkness are very familiar symbols.
Intellectually, "light" refers to biblical truth while "darkness" refers to error or falsehood. Morally, "light" refers to holiness while "darkness" refers to sin.

Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sins, the genuine Christians would admit and forsake them.

The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does; to acknowledge His perspective about sin.


What does all this mean? Simple. We will be forgiven of our sins only if we CONFESS our sins. There are some homosexuals who feel they are not sinnign and that it is not their fault for theri condition. Also there are some who feel that they are sinning but God forgives them and yet they have not done anything to confess their sins nor attempt to stop it. It comes down to the healing process. Destee is right about one thing: it is a choice and there people choose to stay in that situation. I know of a radio personality in this area who was openly gay. Actually it made them popular but once the gave their life bace to Christ, they were not accepted anymore...

Where's the justice in that?

Originally posted by dnommo
Destee and Imhotep, you both are not seeing the big picture. Forgiveness comes after one repents of his/her sins. If we walk in this "all are forgiven" premise then you are missig the point Dnommo, how can you tell me (and Imhotep) what I see or don't see? Have you been given the ability to see out of your own eyes, and ours too?

In regard to your forgiveness comment, allow me to quote Matthew:Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Nowhere in there does it mention my brother asking for forgiveness. That my friend, is between my brother and God. What is required of me, is simply that I forgive him.Originally posted by dnommo
... if you are going to preach the gospel to non-believers ...I am by no means a "preacher," and my participation in this forum should not be considered as such. What I am is a child of God, nothing more and nothing less.

Here again is my thread in its entirety:

A Curse, Without Cause, Cannot Occur...

The 2nd verse of the 26th chapter of the book of Proverbs reads as follows: “As the sparrow by wandering; as the swallow by flying, so the curse that is causeless lighteth not.” In other words, a curse, without cause, cannot occur. Inculcated within this Biblical injunction is the universal law of cause and effect.

For example, the horrible bubonic plague that occurred in medieval Europe was a curse; people living in filth was the cause. The terrible swine flu virus that killed 20 million people worldwide in 1918 was a curse; the slaughtering and eating of swine flesh was the cause [see Leviticus 11:7-8]. The deadly AIDS virus – discovered in 1981 – is a curse; homosexuality is the cause. A curse occurs whenever the laws of God are disobeyed over a prolonged period of time...

As long as certain members of society continue to disobey the laws of God that are found in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, the deadly disease AIDS – which is seemingly incurable – will continue to ravage and plague this land and the world, leaving death in its wake as it begins to reach epidemic proportions...

There are two things that are forbidden by God in ALL the holy books of the world (i.e., The Holy Bible, The Holy Qur’an, The Hindu Vedic Scriptures, The Bhagavad Gita and The Torah). They are: the eating of swine flesh (pork) and the practice of homosexuality. In the Bible the law regarding the sins of homosexuality can be found in the book of Leviticus 18:22-30, which reads as follows:

“Thou shalt not lie down with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto; it is confusion.

Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things, for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled; therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, or any stranger that sojourneth among you (for all these abominations have the men done that were before you, and the land is defiled), so that the land spew not you out also - when ye defile it - as it spewed out the nations that were before you.

For whosoever shall commit them shall be cut off from their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye shall not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein. I am the Lord your God.”

We must be realistic in attempting to solve the problem of the deadly disease AIDS. Encouraging the public to use condoms is absurd. This is tantamount to saying that it is alright to indulge in homosexual activity and have anal intercourse, but use condoms! This is immoral foolishness...

A better way of solving the problem is to isolate these abnormal people, i.e., put all homosexuals and lesbians together in some separate, designated area. As a result they will soon become extinct, because neither of these groups believe in the propagation of the human species. The fact is, homosexuals and lesbians need society, but society does not need homosexuals and lesbians...

Remember, AIDS is a curse, and a curse, without cause, cannot occur...

Aqil--

How is it that you can state a belief in this "universal law" of THOU SHALL NOT KILL when referring to food, but feel like it is ok to KILL humans because they are sinning (specifically homosexulity) ??:nono:

Either you believe in this "universal law" or you don't.


I think those of you who are debating with Destee have missed the point completely. She is not condoning or waivering on her stance about homosexuallity being wrong. She is (and correct me if I am wrong Destee) merely saying that none of us should judge and/or condemn them for being homosexual for if we do we should be judged and/or condemned for the sins we commit.

I agree 100% with Destee. I do however agree that tolerance is a mistake BUT there is a difference between tolerance of an action/sin and loving the person. If our quest is to be more Christ-like then we would definately be strongly against homosexuality (and all other sin) yet take to initiative to love the sinner and separate them from their sin..i.e. HEAL THEM as Christ did. This MAY require us to eat at their table (so to speak) and show them the right way for it is our DUTY to condemn the sin but not judge the person and if we take this approach many more lives will be saved. JUST MY TWO CENTS.

Originally posted by A007:
Aqil--

How is it that you can state a belief in this "universal law" of THOU SHALL NOT KILL when referring to food, but feel like it is ok to KILL humans because they are sinning (specifically homosexuality) ??

Either you believe in this "universal law" or you don't.Certainly I believe in the universal law. Killing has been a form of punishment and/or retribution since time immemorial. If man obeyed God's laws, killing - for food and/or punishment - would be unnecessary...

But since we do not follow God's laws......Then it is ok to KILL for food and punishment????

Reframe your question...many people do follow God's laws.

there is no need for me to reframe my question, you know EXACTLY what I am asking. Just answer the question!

And just for my information....can you give me an example of someone living now who is perfect in there quest to follow all of God's laws?......but...first....answer the question in my last post.

Aqil:

Certainly I believe in the universal law. Killing has been a form of punishment and/or retribution since time immemorial. If man obeyed God's laws, killing - for food and/or punishment - would be unnecessary...

A007:

"But since we do not follow God's laws...then it is OK to kill for food and punishment?"

Reframe your question...many people do follow God's laws.

A007:

"There is no need for me to reframe my question, you know EXACTLY what I am asking. Just answer the question!"

Hol' up son...your rather demanding demeanor is both immature and unnecessary. First of all, who is "we"? And how do you know that "we" do not follow God's laws? What is the source of your information? Like I said, reframe your question...

A007:

"And just for my information...can you give me an example of someone living now who is perfect in there quest to follow all of God's laws? But first, answer the question in my last post."

Again, reframe your question... :o

And please be advised that the topic of my thread is, "A Biblical Discourse on Homosexuality."

Are you serious? lmao. Are you not intelligent enough to refrain from playing word games because you can't answer a question? I know that the thread is a Biblical Discourse on Homosexality. I also know that you stated that you would have Homosexuals killed if you caught them in the act. You stated that if man followed God's Laws there would be no need for killing for food or punishment. That statement would imply that you believe that man does not follow God's laws and this is the reason that we kill for food and punishment. Based on this....why on earth would I have to explain or reframe my question? You already know that man does not follow God's laws, so I neither need to explain my source nor who the "we" are in my statement. Your answer should be the same regardless of who disobeyes God's law..(right?)

You are simply avoiding a direct question because you have been caught in a contradiction. Do you believe in killing or not?

Do you know any one who lives a perfectly Godly life?

The reasons for my questions are merely to point out my belief which is... God should be the only judge since it is SO obvious that none of us are perfect.

Feel free to reply to the questions with direct and clear answers.

Oh... and as far as my demanding demeanor it wasn't a demand it was a challenge because you seem to have a problem answering direct questions with direct answer...you tend to divert attention by playing word games and asking irrelevant questions....and I know YOU aren't calling ME immature with all of the insults you dish out to whomever disagrees with something you have to say :lol:

Originally posted by A007:
Are you serious? lmao. Are you not intelligent enough to refrain from playing word games because you can't answer a question?Yes to your first question. I've answered your questions...you haven't answered mine...
Originally posted by A007:
I know that the thread is a Biblical discourse on homosexuality. I also know that you stated that you would have homosexuals killed if you caught them in the act. It would by my duty as a Muslim following the dictates of the Holy Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Originally posted by A007:
You stated that if man followed God's Laws there would be no need for killing for food or punishment. That statement would imply that you believe that man does not follow God's laws and this is the reason that we kill for food and punishment. Based on this...why on earth would I have to explain or reframe my question?Because you claim that no person on earth follows God's Laws...and you don't know this. Here is what Jesus said:

“God commanded your forefathers: ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill!’ But their hearts were hardened and they killed. Then Moses decided that at least they should not kill men, and he suffered them to kill beasts. And then the hearts of your forefathers were hardened yet more, and they killed men and beasts alike.

But I say unto you: Kill neither men nor beasts, nor the food that goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you; but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death always comes death. For everything that kills your foods kills your bodies also. And everything that kills your bodies kills your soul also. And your bodies become what your foods are; even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are. Therefore eat not anything which fire, frost or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze, and rot your body also...”

[The Essene Gospel of Peace, Edmond Bordeaux Szekely, translated from the Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke).]
Originally posted by A007:
You already know that man does not follow God's laws, so I neither need to explain my source nor who the "we" are in my statement. Your answer should be the same regardless of who disobeys God's law...(right?) I don't "already know" (as you do) that ALL men do not follow God's Laws. I believe in the above words of Jesus, the Holy Qur'an, and the dictates of the Holy Prophet (saw)...
Originally posted by A007:
You are simply avoiding a direct question because you have been caught in a contradiction. Do you believe in killing or not?I haven't been caught in anything. I believe the above words of Jesus. Did he believe in killing?
Originally posted by A007:
Do you know anyone who lives a perfectly Godly life?I believe that there are people of all faiths who live their lives according to the Word of God. Certainly there are sheiks, ayatollahs, imams and mullahs in the Islamic religion that do so...
Originally posted by A007:
The reasons for my questions are merely to point out my belief, which is: God should be the only judge since it is SO obvious that none of us are perfect.And how does God punish us for disobeying His Laws?
Originally posted by A007:
Feel free to reply to the questions with direct and clear answers.Make sure you do the same, A007...:)
Originally posted by A007:
Oh...and as far as my demanding demeanor, it wasn't a demand, it was a challenge because you seem to have a problem answering direct questions with direct answer...you tend to divert attention by playing word games and asking irrelevant questions....and I know YOU aren't calling ME immature with all of the insults you dish out to whomever disagrees with something you have to say :lol:You don't offer anyone a challenge by demanding that they answer a question, A007, which is very immature, imo...the rest of your statement contains no truth...

Aqil: I haven't been caught in anything. I believe the above words of Jesus. Did he believe in killing? quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by A007:
I know that the thread is a Biblical discourse on homosexuality. I also know that you stated that you would have homosexuals killed if you caught them in the act.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aqil: It would by my duty as a Muslim following the dictates of the Holy Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (saw).


No... Jesus did not believe in killing...BUTyou have stated that you do believe in killing....according to your duty as a muslim... You can't have it both ways.... How can you say that you believe in the words of Jesus....and then turn around and say you believe it is you duty as a muslim to kill homosexuals if you caught them in the act?

If you believe in the words of Jesus...where are his words that say YOU (or any muslim) should judge and sentence people to death because they break God's laws?

Originally posted by A007:
No... Jesus did not believe in killing...BUT you have stated that you do believe in killing...according to your duty as a Muslim. You can't have it both ways. How can you say that you believe in the words of Jesus...and then turn around and say you believe it is you duty as a Muslim to kill homosexuals if you caught them in the act?Jesus was referring (mainly) to the food we eat...and says that we should not kill the food we eat...homosexuality is a sin against God that is punishable by death in the religion of Islam.
Originally posted by A007:
If you believe in the words of Jesus...where are his words that say YOU (or any Muslim) should judge and sentence people to death because they break God's laws?It is the duty of a Muslim to (1) obey the laws of God that are stated in the Holy Qur'an...and (2) follow the sunnah, which are the dictates and traditions of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

And A007, there is a huge difference between killing and murder...something we haven't discussed. For example, is killing someone in self-defense murder?

The recently released Encarta Dictionary defines murder as, "the crime of killing another person deliberatly and not in self-defense...or with any other extenuating circumstance..." The Books of Moses contain many examples of killing allowed by God. "You shall not suffer a female sorceress to live..." is one of them.

When murder is committed, the price is higher than any can pay. There is some sense of punishment in a death sentence. More than that, there is the automatic damnation of physical death because you have, by evil choice, undone what God has made in His image...
As for self-defense, God expects you to both defend your own life and welfare as well as that of the others around you. In the Bible, murder is murder and killing is killing. To murder someone is to - by evil choice without the right authority of God - undo the life that God has created in His own image. To kill someone is to undo the same within God's ordinances, which is why the Prophet said: "If you find someone who is committing an act of homosexuality, kill the one on top and the one below..."

um elijah, where did you get stoning rebellious children from?....and by the way...in the old days..they sacrificed LAMBS.......not people..you really have to take a look at a Bible hun

"If a homosexual dies without repentance, he is changed into a pig in his grave."

(Ibn Abbas)

I've been reading the majority of thr responses and the first thing I think of is what I read everytime I open a Destee page. "We are about loving, encouraging and embracing, teacing and building with our people. No hate allowed." All I'm seeing is hate and gay bashing. I'm not gay, nor do I agree with the gay lifestyle, but they are people just the same. The first thing I read about segregating(my fault on the spelling) homosexuals. Sounds like when white men wanted to segregate us. That's just a comparison I drew. Um, God created all is his image. He creates smart men, dumb men, fast men, slow men, retarded men, and gay men. Just cause you don't want to believe, doesn't mean it's not true.

I believe the bible is divine. It was inspired by God, but written by man. By nature, man has a way of adlibing. The 10 Commandments were written by God directly. He wrote them on stone tablets and gave them to Moses. The Beatitudes were spoken by the Son of God, Jesus Christ. In either of these laws from on high is there anything said about homosexuality.

Aquil...I think you copped out when asked if you saw two men having sex, would you kill them. You said you would have them killed. That's not the same thing. Then you tried to say that the country you live in wouldn't allow you to do it. If you believed as much as you want us to think that you do, yor answer would have been "yes."

We are all sinners. Everyday we sin. Thoughts can be considered sins. There is no man or woman that can say that they don't sin. It is impossible. Reason why, because no one is perfect. To believe that you are perfect is a sin. I know gay men and women. And honestly, some of them are the best people I know. I know a lot of hetrosexual men and women that can't hold a light to them. Being gay dosn't mean that you are condemed to hell. Doesn't mean that you should be killed. People who think that are closed minded.

I went to Xavier University of Louisian. There was a plethora of gay men on campus. But AIDS wasn't running rampant on campus. To call AIDS a gay disease is horrible. That's like calling Diabetes a black disease or skin cancer a white disease. I'm one of thos people that believe, those without sin, throw te first stone. Jesus Christ forgave a man who was on a cross adjecent to him. Told him that he will ebter the Kingdom of God. So a gay man can't? Yall are bugging. I hope you open your minds and your hearts one day. If you can't love all mankind for who they are, maybe you're the ones that need to be segrated. Hate is the most horrible sin there is.

Let me pose a question. If you had a gay son or daughter, would you kill them? Would you love them any less? Would you tell them that they are the reason AIDS is in the world? Think about this before you answer. I wouldn't want to see anyone recanting what they orginally said. Aquil, that was directed at you.

There is no man or woman that can say that they don't sin. It is impossible...To believe that you are perfect is a sin.Your fallacious, arbitrary opinions contradict what Jesus said: "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Does the Pope sin? Did Mother Teresa sin? What about Ghandi and other holy men of the world? Do they sin? If they do, could you tell me how?

Let me pose a question. If you had a gay son or daughter, would you kill them? Would you love them any less? Would you tell them that they are the reason AIDS is in the world? Think about this before you answer. I wouldn't want to see anyone recanting what they orginally said. Aquil, that was directed at you.I am Muslim...therefore your hypothetical is a non sequitur. We believe that homosexuality is an acquired behavioral disorder...and btw, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love in the Bible. For example:

Gen. 3:1-7, 22-24 – God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind forever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life."

(God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place, and would thereby have prevented the fall of man, the necessity for salvation, the crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

Genesis 4:2-8 – God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

Genesis 34:13-29 – The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

Genesis 6:11-17, 7:11-24 – God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

Genesis 19:26 – God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

Genesis 38:9 –“... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked…so the Lord put him to death.”

Exodus 2:12 – Moses murders an Egyptian.

Exodus 7:1,14; 9:14-16; 10:1-2; 11:7 – The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:

to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

Exodus 9:22-25 – A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt…both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

Exodus 12:29 – The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 17:13 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

Exodus 21:20-21 – With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

Exodus 32:27 – Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

Exodus 32:27-29 – With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

Leviticus 26:7-8 – The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

Leviticus 26:22 – “I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children.”

Leviticus 26:29, Deuteronomy 28:53, Jeremiah 19:9, Ezekiel 5:8-10 – As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

Leviticus 27:29 – Human sacrifice is condoned.

Numbers 11:33 – The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

Numbers 12:1-10 – God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

Numbers 15:32-36 – A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

Numbers 16:27-33 – The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

Numbers 16:35 – A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

Numbers 16:49 – A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

Numbers 21:3 – The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

Numbers 21:6 – Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

Numbers 21:35 – With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og… “and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...”

Numbers 25:4 – “And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...”

Numbers 25:8 – “He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly.”

Numbers 25:9 – 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

Numbers 31:9 – The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

Numbers 31:17-18 – Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "...every woman who has known man …" (How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

Numbers 31:31-40 – 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty…32 are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

Deuteronomy 2:33-34 – The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

Deuteronomy 3:6 – The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

Deuteronomy 7:2 – The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

Deuteronomy 20:13-14 – “When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males …As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.”

Deuteronomy 20:16 – “In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.”

Deuteronomy 21:10-13 – With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

Deuteronomy 28:53 “You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you.”

Joshua 1:1-9, 18 – Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.
Joshua 6:21-27 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 7:19-26 – Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

Joshua 8:22-25 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

Joshua 10:10-27 – With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

Joshua 10:28 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

Joshua 10:30 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

Joshua 10:32-33 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

Joshua 10:34-35 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

Joshua 10:36-37 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

Joshua 10:38-39 – With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

Joshua 10:40 – “So Joshua defeated the whole land; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.”

Joshua 11:6 – The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

Joshua 11:8-15 – “And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed…”

Joshua 11:20 – “For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses.”

Joshua 11:21-23 – Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

Judges 1:4 – With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

Judges 1:6 – With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

Judges 1:8 – With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

Judges 1:17 – With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

Judges 3:29 – The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

Judges 3:31 – Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

Judges 4:21 – Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

Judges 7:19-25 – The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

Judges 8:15-21 – The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

Judges 9:5 – Abimalech murders his brothers.

Judges 9:45 – Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

Judges 9:53-54 – “A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died.”

Judges 11:29-39 – Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

Judges 14:19 – The spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.
Judges 15:15 – Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of a work animal.

Judges 16:21 – The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

Judges 16:27-30 – Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death…and that of 3,000 other men and women.

Judges 18:27 – The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

Judges 19:22-29 – A group of sexually-depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judges 20:43-48 – The Israelites smite over 25,000 "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

Judges 21:10-12 – “ Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones...every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

Isaiah 4:10 – The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

Isaiah 5:6-9 – The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

Isaiah 6:19 – God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

Isaiah 7:7-11 – Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

Isaiah 11:11 – With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

Isaiah 14:31 – Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

Isaiah 14:48 – Saul smites the Amalekites.

Isaiah 15:3, 7-8 – “This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***…'And Saul utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

Isaiah 15:33 – “Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord...”

Isaiah 18:7 – The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

Isaiah 18:27 – David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

Isaiah 30:17 – David smites the Amalekites.

2 Samuel 2:23 – Abner kills Asahel.

2 Samuel 3:30 – Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2 Samuel 4:7-8 – Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2 Samuel 4:12 – David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2 Samuel 5:25 – “And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines...”

2 Samuel 6:2-23 – Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2 Samuel 8:1-18 – (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2 Samuel 8:4 – David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2 Samuel 8:5 – David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2 Samuel 8:6, 14 – “The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went.”

2 Samuel 8:13 – David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2 Samuel 10:18 – David slew over 47,000 Syrians.

2 Samuel 11:14-27 – David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2 Samuel 12:1, 19 – The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2 Samuel 13:1-15 – Amnon loves his sister Tamar…rapes her, then hates her.

2 Samuel 13:28-29 – Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2 Samuel 18:6-7 – 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2 Samuel 18:15 – Joab's men murder Absalom.

2 Samuel 20:10-12 – Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him …“ wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped.”

2 Samuel 24:15 – The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1 Kings 2:24-25 – Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1 Kings 2:29-34 – Solomon has Joab murdered.

1 Kings 2:46 – Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1 Kings 13:15-24 – A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1 Kings 20:29-30 – The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2 Kings 1:10-12 – Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2 Kings 2:23-24 – Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2 Kings 5:27 – Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2 Kings 6:18-19 – The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2 Kings 6:29 – “So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him.”

2 Kings 9:24 – Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2 Kings 9:27 – Ahaziah has Jehu killed.

2 Kings 9:30-37 – Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2 Kings 10:7 – Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2 Kings 10:14 – Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2 Kings 10:17 – “And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord…”

2 Kings 10:19-27 – Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2 Kings 11:1 – Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2 Kings 14:5,7 – Amaziah kills his servants…and then 10,000 Edomites.

2 Kings 15:3-5 – Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2 Kings 15:16 – Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2 Kings 19:35 – An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1 Chronicles 20:3 – “And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes.”

2 Chronicles 13:17 – 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2 Chronicles 21:4 – Jehoram slays all his brothers.

Psalms 137:9 – Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

Psalms 144:1 – God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

Isaiah 13:15 – “Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their wives will be ravished.”

Isaiah 13:18 – “Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.”

Isaiah 14:21-22 – “Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.”

Isaiah 49:26 – The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelites to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

Jeremiah 16:4 – “They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.”

Lamentations 4:9-10 – “Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food...pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ...”

Ezekiel 6:12-13 – The Lord says: “... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak...”

Ezekiel 9:4-6 – The Lord commands: “...slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women…”

Ezekiel 20:26 – In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

Ezekiel 21:3-4 – The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

Ezekiel 23:25, 47 – God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

Ezekiel 23:34 – “You shall...pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts.”

Hosea 13:16 – “They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”

Micah 3:2-3 – “...who pluck off their skin...and their flesh from off their bones; who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.”

Matthew 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30; Luke 13:28; John 5:24 – Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 10:21 – “...the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child…children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.”

Matthew 10:35-36 – “For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law…a man's enemies will be the members of his own family.”

Matthew 11:21-24 – Jesus curses the inhabitants of three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

Acts 13:11 – Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, SayWord, and is punishable by death. And that pales into insignificance in light of the above Biblical atrocities...

You can believe that sharks eat grass if you want, doesn't mean that it's true. You can believe that you choose to gay if you want to, doesn't mean that's true either. With people like you in the world, why would anyone choose to be gay? You avoided the question. You seem to have a knack for doing that. If you had a gay son or daughter, what would you do? Would you have them killed. You didn't holla back at me about the 10 Commandments or about the Beatitudes. These are laws straight from God, untainted. The Bible is inspired by God but written by man. There are going to be som sort of adlibing. You didn't address that either. So what if the bible talks about death a lot. So do a lot of other books. Everyone sins. We are all born with orginal sin. The bible verse that you quoted doesn't mean that you can be perfect, it means to strive to become perfect. Work to become the unattainable. Yes Mother Theresea sinned. She acknowledged that. Just because she did a lot of good works doesn't mean that she was perfect. Of course the Pope sins. He is human. Ghandi sinned as well. As you are reading this right now...you have possible commited several sinful acts without even knowing it. Premarital sexis a sin. I don't know if you do or don't, but if you do, you are a sinner. Smoking is a sin. If you do you are a sinner. Condemning others is a sin...obviously you've done that. So guess what that makes you? You didn't address calling AIDS a gay disease either. And you didn't address the fact that you wouldn't do the killing, but would have someone else do it for you. If you believe in what you are saying so strongly, don't let anyone carry out your duties for you. Like I said..open your heart and your mind. God bless you. And I'm going to pray for you.

You can believe that sharks eat grass if you want, doesn't mean that it's true.I can't believe a lie, period...
You can believe that you choose to be gay if you want to, doesn't mean that's true either. With people like you in the world, why would anyone choose to be gay?Why would anyone choose to be a homosexual or lesbian when God condemns this sinful lifestyle in the Bible?
You avoided the question.You seem to have a knack for doing that.If you had a gay son or daughter, what would you do? Would you have them killed.Evidently you avoided my response to your hypothetical questions...
You didn't holla back at me about the 10 Commandments or about the Beatitudes. These are laws straight from God, untainted.So are His laws re: homosexuality...
The Bible is inspired by God but written by man. There are going to be some sort of ad-libbing. You didn't address that either.The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. To ad-lib means to compose or recite something without preparation. You can fault King James (who was a flaming homosexual, btw) for that...he and his cohorts ad-libbed quite a bit...
So what if the Bible talks about death a lot. So do a lot of other books. Everyone sins. We are all born with orginal sin. The Bible verse that you quoted doesn't mean that you can be perfect, it means to strive to become perfect. Work to become the unattainable.Suppose one accomplishes this?
Yes, Mother Teresa sinned. She acknowledged that. Just because she did a lot of good works doesn't mean that she was perfect.When or where did Mother Teresa acknowledge that she sinned?
Of course the Pope sins. He is human. Ghandi sinned as well.So everybody who has ever been born in this world is a sinner? Can you define "sin"?
As you are reading this right now...you have possible commited several sinful acts without even knowing it. Premarital sex is a sin. I don't know if you do or don't, but if you do, you are a sinner. Smoking is a sin. If you do you are a sinner. Condemning others is a sin...obviously you've done that. So guess what that makes you? What is your source of this farcical information?
You didn't address calling AIDS a gay disease either.The first humans to die from the disease AIDS in this country were homosexual Caucasian males...hundreds of thousands of them...even Catholic "priests"!! The reason the disease AIDS spread to the Caucasian heterosexual community so quickly is because married Caucasian males would come home from their offices, take off their 3-piece business suits and put on a pair of pink panties and go man-hunting at night...then come home and bed with their wives...and their wives passed it on to both the their own heterosexual community and, subsequently, the African American heterosexual community as well...
And you didn't address the fact that you wouldn't do the killing, but would have someone else do it for you. If you believe in what you are saying so strongly, don't let anyone carry out your duties for you. Like I said..open your heart and your mind. God bless you. And I'm going to pray for you.I have...and I realize I live in the U.S....:) Thanks anyway, but I don't need your prayers...

You asked me, if God condems it in the bible why would anyone choose to be homosexual? That's a really good question. It doesn't make any common sense. Meaning that no one would choose to be gay. It would have to be something that they are born with. Meaning God made gay men and women just like God made straight men and women.

It's not hypothetical to ask about you having a gay son. It's a very real possiblity regardless of what religion you are. Who cares if you are Muslim. If it was against your religion to be born with more than 10 fingers and toes would it be outside the realm of possiblities to be born with more than 10 fingers and toes. You avoided the question because you choose not to answer it. That's all you had to say.

So what if you live in America, if you have enough conviction behind your words you'd do what you have to do.

Orginal Sin- because of the first sin commited by Adam and Eve that got them expelled from the Garden of Eden all men are born with this.

Venial Sin- sins against God on a smaller scale.

Mortal Sin- sins against God on a larger scale.

In the New Testement Jesus teaches :grouphug: unity. You're preaching hate. You say you don't need my prayers. I think you need them more than the gay man that you are condeming. Like I said before, hate is the worst kind of sin. Hate and closemindness is what fueled racism and sexism. You're just as bad with what you are preaching here. I was under the impression that this forum was about acceptance and understanding