Black Study Group : The word Metu Neter [Archive] - Black People | African Americans

SAMURAI36

09-26-2006, 06:02 PM

Sorry dude but I have been looking at several Hieroglyphic Dictionaries besides Wallis Budge because I like to get more input and the one thing that has stopped me from buying other Hieroglyphic Dictionaries is the price tag. I aint about to buy no book for no $131.

So you can have that.

What on this blue earth, are you talking about NOW???

That book cost $14.95. No where on that link do you see anything about $131.

You're talking non-sense, which is quite typical for you.

Anything you want to prove from that particular book, you will have to scan it and share it with all of us.

Nope, go buy it. You haven't scanned a single book here, so stop requesting of others, that which you are unwilling/unable to provide yourself.

All you've done is list books and ISBN's and thus I've done the same thing.

Due to this thread of yours……..
http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=445298&postcount=3

Your creditability is pretty much shot with me. Thus I will not take your word for anything you say. So could you please scan the entire page that contain the Egyptian Hieroglyphic meaning for “Metu” and do the same for “Neter” and place it on the web so that we all can see?

I could care less. We are at an impasse, then. Frankly, I'm not trying to convince you of anything anyway..........You, who take the words of white racist Jews as law, as it concerns Black people.

Please provide page number.

I don't do the "page number" thing. Go read the book. It's in there.

I honestly don't think that you've read an entire book from cover to cover, a day in your life.

So if you want to know, then read it yourself, because I'm not going to give you the Cliff's Notes version.

Besides, didn't you just say you aren't taking my word for it?

Music Producer

09-26-2006, 07:14 PM

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/productMatches.asp?PEAN=9780964066113&z=y

Sami_RaMaati

09-26-2006, 10:36 PM

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/productMatches.asp?PEAN=9780964066113&z=y

I paid $19.95 for mine. I wonder if that's a typo.

Music Producer

09-26-2006, 10:47 PM

I paid $19.95 for mine. I wonder if that's a typo.
Nope, when I hit the “add to cart” button the total reflect the price. They also express that this book is no longer in stock. I also Googled it and did not find any.

I will keep looking.

Music Producer

09-26-2006, 10:51 PM

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0964066114?tag=ugeniepcs&camp=14573&creative=329585&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0964066114&adid=1V2067SFXMFFE6QZA2PY&

That's to much for me.

Music Producer

09-26-2006, 11:09 PM

This is what I would like to see happen.

I would like for anyone with the book to scan from his or her copy of the book the page that contains the meaning of “Metu” and also scan the page the contains the meaning of “Neter” and put the image on the web to share it with all of us.

How does that sound?
When can we expect this to be done?

Sami_RaMaati

09-26-2006, 11:16 PM

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0964066114?tag=ugeniepcs&camp=14573&creative=329585&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0964066114&adid=1V2067SFXMFFE6QZA2PY&

That's to much for me.

I see what's going on now. Peeps are profiteering from a book no longer in print. I've seen this happen with books and other materials on amazon, e.g., people selling "The West & The Rest of Us" by Chinweizu (suggested retail price while in print was around $20, but the price was jacked up to over $100 after it went out of print). Some people reselling their own personal copies of the "Eyes on the Prize" video series were asking $1500 for the 14 volume set because it was no longer being printed (the copyrights to the news footage had expired). I got all 14 volumes for less than $300 when all the copyrights were current.

I don't blame you for refusing to pay that kind of money.

jamesfrmphilly

09-27-2006, 12:00 AM

music producer has a magical ability to hi jack every thread.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 12:09 AM

nibs

09-27-2006, 05:15 AM

SAMURAI36

09-27-2006, 09:01 AM

even budge gets this right...

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/metu.png

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/medu.png

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/neter.png

metu neter, it's my understanding that it's better translated as medu neter...

"words of the gods" as neter loosely translates to gods. metu neter would be the kemetian name of the "hieroglyphic" language and script.

it's amusing that the music man would get this wrong, in an attempt to discredit the metu neter.

(music producer) - The best translation for the title “Metu Neter” would be “man begets god”.

The title has nothing to do with meaning “the word of god”.

:tongue:

seriously, how can you comment on "hieroglyphics" ever if you are going to get "metu neter" wrong???

aren't you keeping a list of "posters who've made egregious errors" somewhere?

add this one to that list...

edit:
singular might be more appropriate. so "word of god", "words of god", "divine words"...etc. might be a better translation.

Thank you for posting this, NIBS.

This is the break-down that I have learned for Metu Neter:

Met: a word (in the grammatical sense)

Metu: (plural) a sentence, phrase or statement.

Meten: a decree of an official capacity

Metnet: gossip, a word of advice, or a story/parable

These are all the forms of the word.

This, when we put METU NETER together, we get Word of God, or Divine Wisdom.

HOTEP

Eric Bell

09-27-2006, 12:34 PM

I am not totally 100% sure if this sure if this right or not....But isn't METU NETER the name of a Kamitian(Egyptian) oracle?

The book METU NETER: THE GREAT ORACLE OF TEHUTI (THOTH)AND THE EGYPTIAN SYSTEM OF SPIRITUAL CULTIVATION by RA UN NEFER AMEN was named as such because the book was made to provide people with insight and understanding of the METU NETER oracle. Is this true?

nibs

09-27-2006, 12:41 PM

tehuti/djehuti is the oracle.

thoth is a fake name, my copy does not contain the fake name.

Eric Bell

09-27-2006, 12:46 PM

[QUOTE=nibs]tehuti/djehuti is the oracle.

Can you please elaborate on this?
What does it mean when you say that "Tehuti is the oracle"?

nibs

09-27-2006, 01:10 PM

connecting to the oracle within...

djehuti is the kemetian neter of wisdom, writing, knowledge...etc. the keeper and revealer of these things. the metu neter books provide an understanding to the kemetian system of self-knowledge and spiritual cultivation thusly performs the role associated with djehuti. in terms of serving as a guide, providing the knowledge and explanation to understand these things.

the neteru are forces that manifest within. the metu neter teaches how to connect to djehuti, the oracle within, and thus gain knowledge and intuition from one's spiritual higher self; knowledge and wisdom applicable to life.

meditation excercises, prayers...etc.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 02:12 PM

even budge gets this right...

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/metu.png

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/medu.png

http://homepage.mac.com/nibs/.Pictures/neter.png

metu neter, it's my understanding that it's better translated as medu neter...

"words of the gods" as neter loosely translates to gods. metu neter would be the kemetian name of the "hieroglyphic" language and script.

it's amusing that the music man would get this wrong, in an attempt to discredit the metu neter.

(music producer) - The best translation for the title “Metu Neter” would be “man begets god”.

The title has nothing to do with meaning “the word of god”.

:tongue:

seriously, how can you comment on "hieroglyphics" ever if you are going to get "metu neter" wrong???

aren't you keeping a list of "posters who've made egregious errors" somewhere?

add this one to that list...

edit:
singular might be more appropriate. so "word of god", "words of god", "divine words"...etc. might be a better translation.
Why are you setting there boasting and acting like you have done something awesome and great when all you have done is changed the title of the book?

You actually set there and changed the title of the book to make it fit to what you want it to say and you are proud about that? That is absolutely nuts if I ever saw it. You would do yourself well to delete that post.

The title of the book is “Metu Neter” NOT “Medu Neter”.

Now, look up the definition of the words the thread starter asked for.

jamesfrmphilly

09-27-2006, 02:16 PM

Now, look up the definition of the words the thread starter asked for.
wrong again: the OP asked what language they were from....

nibs

09-27-2006, 02:23 PM

(Music Producer) - Why are you setting there boasting and acting like you have done something awesome and great when all you have done is changed the title of the book?

You actually set there and changed the title of the book to make it fit to what you want it to say and you are proud about that? That is absolutely nuts if I ever saw it. You would do yourself well to delete that post.

The title of the book is “Metu Neter” NOT “Medu Neter”.

i looked up "metu neter". i used budge's "first steps in egyptian hieroglyphics". look at the scanned images. the images of budge's definitions for "metu" are right before you.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 03:12 PM

nibs

09-27-2006, 03:45 PM

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 04:14 PM

(Music Producer) - Full page scan from Wallis Budge “An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary”. The scan is of page 331 that shows the meaning and glyphs for “Metu”.
Also in looking at this page I saw a full reference for “Metut Neter”.

you'll notice that in one the metu has that phonetic symbol under the t and in the other it does not. medu is a tonal language, and thus these are not the same words. the hieroglyphs are not the same.
metut != metu
I don’t understand why you insist on throwing “Medu” into the discussion. We are trying to decipher “Metu” which is the exact word and spelling used for the title “Metu Neter”.

You have indeed scanned an image expressing it came from Wallis Budge “first steps in egyptian hieroglyphics”, I now have that exact book on order. If it is found to be as you express then we are simply at an impasse that can not be resolved but it would prove one thing, ……….

that the author of the Metu Neter used Wallis Budge to create or write out the title of his book instead of his own knowledge of Egyptian wording, meaning and expression.

omowalejabali

09-27-2006, 04:53 PM

I don’t understand why you insist on throwing “Medu” into the discussion. We are trying to decipher “Metu” which is the exact word and spelling used for the title “Metu Neter”.

You have indeed scanned an image expressing it came from Wallis Budge “first steps in egyptian hieroglyphics”, I now have that exact book on order. If it is found to be as you express then we are simply at an impasse that can not be resolved but it would prove one thing, ……….

that the author of the Metu Neter used Wallis Budge to create or write out the title of his book instead of his own knowledge of Egyptian wording, meaning and expression.

Again Brother, the more some folks speak on this as if there word is authoritative, the more they expose themselves as FRAUDS and "charlatans.

Go to the top of page 436.

Peace...

omowalejabali

09-27-2006, 04:59 PM

In reference to "medu"

What other words are there in "Egyptian hieroglyp" contain the alphabetic character 'd'

???

I have studied this extensively and when referencing Gerald Massey's listings of vocabulary it is obvious that the alphabetic character 'd' is not "Kemetic" but of SANSKRIT ORIGIN

!!!

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 05:04 PM

Again Brother, the more some folks speak on this as if there word is authoritative, the more they expose themselves as FRAUDS and "charlatans.

Go to the top of page 436.

Peace...
Of which book?

omowalejabali

09-27-2006, 05:06 PM

Of which book?

An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Reading Book for Beginners by E.A. Wallis Budge.

nibs

09-27-2006, 05:23 PM

I-khan

09-27-2006, 05:30 PM

book recommendation:Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cu****e Empire

http://www.amazon.com/Wonderful-Ethiopians-Ancient-Cu****e-Empire/dp/0933121016/sr=1-1/qid=1159388634/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7140519-9988852?ie=UTF8&s=books

This book is old,but very descriptive....especially on the origins of the peoples of kmt came from,and how the peoples of nubia (ta-seti) came and inhabited the area of kmt only to break away later on as an independent nation.

SAMURAI36

09-27-2006, 05:34 PM

I don’t understand why you insist on throwing “Medu” into the discussion. We are trying to decipher “Metu” which is the exact word and spelling used for the title “Metu Neter”.

You have indeed scanned an image expressing it came from Wallis Budge “first steps in egyptian hieroglyphics”, I now have that exact book on order. If it is found to be as you express then we are simply at an impasse that can not be resolved but it would prove one thing, ……….

that the author of the Metu Neter used Wallis Budge to create or write out the title of his book instead of his own knowledge of Egyptian wording, meaning and expression.

There is no impasse here, nor is this a logical conclusion.

The author himself is a born African, who spent most of his academic career in Africa. Since you have no knowledge on the author, then your supposition on this matter is (as usual) utterly meaningless.

Besides, your very own scan shows what the term means.

"EMISSIONS FROM THE GOD" has nothing to do with "MAN AS A BEGETTER", as you clumsily attempted to assert here.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 05:50 PM

An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Reading Book for Beginners by E.A. Wallis Budge.
When I receive the book, will do.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 05:56 PM

Moorfius

09-27-2006, 05:57 PM

Hotep

For those who are not Absolutely Serious about their Spirituality and are only Amusing them self with frivilus arguements in intellectual masterbation...if that is what you have chosen for your self...then so it will be.

African Proverb: "When the Student is Ready...The Master will Appear".

Apparintly some are not ready and don't care to ever be Ready.

Ase`

omowalejabali

09-27-2006, 06:04 PM

When I receive the book, will do.

My last post on this....(need to detox the next 7 days)

Hint:

p. 456

neter metu, "divine speech or tradition"

neter tefu, "divine fathers", an order of priests

neteru henu, "priests"

neter atef Ai neter heq Uast, "Ai, divine father, divine prince of Thebes, a king of the XVIIIth dynasty

The last "translation" is of importance considering the familial relationship between "Akhenaten" and "Ai"

I am sure that you will no doubt recognize the significance of this correlation.

Peace...."the work of My Father" is done....

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 06:09 PM

There is no impasse here, nor is this a logical conclusion.

The author himself is a born African, who spent most of his academic career in Africa. Since you have no knowledge on the author, then your supposition on this matter is (as usual) utterly meaningless.

Besides, your very own scan shows what the term means.

"EMISSIONS FROM THE GOD" has nothing to do with "MAN AS A BEGETTER", as you clumsily attempted to assert here.
No, that is translated as “Matut Neter”, sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry but the title of the book is “Metu Neter”.

http://www.songbeatsrapbeats.com/metu.jpg

You can see for yourself as to the meaning of “Metu”.

So once again your feeble attempts to tell someone something opposite of what our own eyes can see is busted again.

Why are you even talking to me?
Can’t you see that I am not one of those dumb brothers walking the streets ready to become someone’s zombie?

Be gone you Ammit!

I-khan

09-27-2006, 06:09 PM

Hey, I have that book! Haven’t gotten a chance to read it yet.
I am more than half way through,and what caught my attention in particular is that when she mentioned that the 'nubians' gave the peoples of 'kmt' their spiritual system that the peoples of kmt may have not understood all of it.

Music Producer

09-27-2006, 06:19 PM

I am more than half way through,and what caught my attention in particular is that when she mentioned that the 'nubians' gave the peoples of 'kmt' their spiritual system that the peoples of kmt may have not understood all of it.
Now that is very interesting because I myself have seen a terrible corruption between the oldest proven ATR and Egyptian theology.

Maybe you should start a thread on this.

I-khan

09-27-2006, 06:22 PM

Now that is very interesting because I myself have seen a terrible corruption between the oldest proven ATR and Egyptian theology.

Maybe you should start a thread on this.
hmmmm,good idea,but something tells me it may cause more questions to be posed that will lack answers,but it should be done regardless,perhaps within the next few days...

omowalejabali

09-27-2006, 06:25 PM

Sami_RaMaati

09-27-2006, 11:14 PM

In reference to "medu"

What other words are there in "Egyptian hieroglyp" contain the alphabetic character 'd'

i believe it's a pronunciation issue.
the earth center continues to teach and also speak/read/write medu and they use the 'd' in many words. muata ashby also uses the 'd' throughout his translations in his books.

djehuti, dua, djedtu...etc.

i follow their convention.

Nibs: you are 100% correct with regard to the pronunciation issue. Phonetically speaking, "d" and "t" are interchangeable, as in "ladder" and "latter"--they sound similar. Therefore either "metu" or "medu" are equally acceptable pronunciations. In other words "Medu Neter" is exactly the same as "Metu Neter." Music Producer doesn't have a case or a clue.

Asbhy also uses "t" in Metu Neter (In his translation of the Pert em Heru), but that is a very minor point and in no way detracts from the correctness of your position, as I shall illustrate momentarily.

You wrote:

you'll notice that in one the metu has that phonetic symbol under the t and in the other it does not. medu is a tonal language, and thus these are not the same words. the hieroglyphs are not the same.

This is also correct. Music Producer shows a scanned page from page 331 of Budge's dictionary. This, however, is a distinctly different set of glyphs that means something other than "metu neter" as we are defining it here in this thread. On page 335 in Budge's dictionary, the word "metu" with the phonetic symbol under the "t" along with a different set of glyphs as compared to page 331 is defined as "word", "speech", "command", and "order" . That's a nuance of the language that you are obviously familiar with but that Music Producer is utterly clueless about. That's why one can't simply open a hieroglyphic dictionary and quote sensibly from it without understanding how to properly reference what's there. His own dearly beloved Budge discredits his clumsy attempt at translating "Metu Neter."

Sami_RaMaati

09-28-2006, 12:26 AM

Please Scan

This is what I would like to see happen.

I would like for anyone with the book to scan from his or her copy of the book the page that contains the meaning of “Metu” and also scan the page the contains the meaning of “Neter” and put the image on the web to share it with all of us.

How does that sound?
When can we expect this to be done?

I told you once before to be careful of what you ask for. From Faulkner's "A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian" we have the following on page 122:

http://divinebynature.tripod.com/metu_neter_faulkner.gif

I put an arrow and an asterisk on the line in which the transliteration of these glyphs is written as Mdw-Ntr (with the phonetic symbol under the t), which is translated as EITHER "Medu Neter" OR "Metu Neter" or "Metu Netcher" OR "Medew Netcher". All of these mean exactly the same thing--"Divine Speech", "Words of God", etc. A similar combination of glyphs appears on page 335 of Budge, and on page 460 of "Middle Egyptian" by James P Allen (though he incorrectly renders its meaning as "hieroglyphics"--Greek for "sacred writings" which still comes back to meaning "Divine Speech" or "Words of God"). Muata Ashby, on page 41 of his translation of the Pert em Heru refers to "Metu Neter" as meaning "Divine Speech." The late, great, Jacob H Carruthers, himself an authority on the language, gives the same meaning--"Divine Speech" (on page 40 of his book "Mdw Ntr" with the phonetic symbol under the t), though he uses the transliteration "Mdw-Ntr".

To sum it up, on the one hand, we have 3 white professors--Budge, Faulkner, & Allen, along with 2 black priests--Ra Un Nefer Amen and Muata Ashby--plus a black professor who was also a priest--Jacob H Carruthers--in general agreement about the meaning of "Metu Neter". On the other hand we have 1 or 2 disputants--folk who obviously have no training whatsoever in this language--who simply don't know what they're talking about.

Yet another case of attempted slander through disinformation has been exposed and closed.

Music Producer

09-28-2006, 01:22 AM

I told you once before to be careful of what you ask for. From Faulkner's "A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian" we have the following on page 122:

http://divinebynature.tripod.com/metu_neter_faulkner.gif

I put an arrow and an asterisk on the line in which the transliteration of these glyphs is written as Mdw-Ntr (with the phonetic symbol under the t), which is translated as EITHER "Medu Neter" OR "Metu Neter" or "Metu Netcher" OR "Medew Netcher". All of these mean exactly the same thing--"Divine Speech", "Words of God", etc. A similar combination of glyphs appears on page 335 of Budge, and on page 460 of "Middle Egyptian" by James P Allen (though he incorrectly renders its meaning as "hieroglyphics"--Greek for "sacred writings" which still comes back to meaning "Divine Speech" or "Words of God"). Muata Ashby, on page 41 of his translation of the Pert em Heru refers to "Metu Neter" as meaning "Divine Speech." The late, great, Jacob H Carruthers, himself an authority on the language, gives the same meaning--"Divine Speech" (on page 40 of his book "Mdw Ntr" with the phonetic symbol under the t), though he uses the transliteration "Mdw-Ntr".

To sum it up, on the one hand, we have 3 white professors--Budge, Faulkner, & Allen, along with 2 black priests--Ra Un Nefer Amen and Muata Ashby--plus a black professor who was also a priest--Jacob H Carruthers--in general agreement about the meaning of "Metu Neter". On the other hand we have 1 or 2 disputants--folk who obviously have no training whatsoever in this language--who simply don't know what they're talking about.

Yet another case of attempted slander through disinformation has been exposed and closed.
Hey, I got that same book, I was so mad when I opined it and saw hand written cursive that I could even hardly read.

But any way, yes that is the exact page that appears in that book. But as you and I can both see the word on the page you have pointed out is “mdu ntr” which means the first word represents “medu” which is not the word in question.

The word in question is the title of the book “Metu Neter”.

The word that we are trying to decipher is “Metu” not “Medu”.

Further more this page is not from the book suggested by others of the thread.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780964066113&itm=1

That is the book I’m wanting the scan to be from. I already have the cheaper white Egyptian dictionaries, the ones I can afford.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sami_RaMaati

09-28-2006, 02:29 AM

Hey, I got that same book, I was so mad when I opined it and saw hand written cursive that I could even hardly read.

But any way, yes that is the exact page that appears in that book. But as you and I can both see the word on the page you have pointed out is “mdu ntr” which means the first word represents “medu” which is not the word in question.

The word in question is the title of the book “Metu Neter”.

The word that we are trying to decipher is “Metu” not “Medu”.

"WE" are not trying to decipher anything. That issue is yours and yours alone. I have already stated that, phonetically speaking, "d" and "t" are interchangeable. No matter how you try to slice it, dice it and parse it, the words "Metu Neter" and "Medu Neter" are one and the same. The choice of using a "d" or a "t" is up to the individual author, but it does not materially alter the meaning of the word(s). It's like the difference between tomato (ta-MAY-toe) and tomato (ta-MAH-toe), or six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Further more this page is not from the book suggested by others of the thread.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780964066113&itm=1

You didn't ask for "that page" from "that book". You asked for "a page."

That is the book I’m wanting the scan to be from. I already have the cheaper white Egyptian dictionaries, the ones I can afford.

Do you want it badly enough to spring for $131?? LOL!!

Instead of going through these distortions and contortions trying to prove the unprovable by incorrectly using a dictionary of a language you know nothing about, why not just admit you screwed up [again] and get on with your life [again]? You even blew it by referencing the wrong page in Budge.

Music Producer

09-28-2006, 02:48 AM

"WE" are not trying to decipher anything. That issue is yours and yours alone. I have already stated that, phonetically speaking, "d" and "t" are interchangeable. No matter how you try to slice it, dice it and parse it, the words "Metu Neter" and "Medu Neter" are one and the same. The choice of using a "d" or a "t" is up to the individual author, but it does not materially alter the meaning of the word(s). It's like the difference between tomato (ta-MAY-toe) and tomato (ta-MAH-toe), or six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Nope, the Hieroglyphs have absolutely nothing in common just like you said on arguing about “Anu” and “Aamu”. In that argument you were not willing to accept or make excuses for “phonetics”. Thus “Metu” and “Medw” are not the same in any way.

Instead of going through these distortions and contortions trying to prove the unprovable by incorrectly using a dictionary of a language you know nothing about, why not just admit you screwed up [again] and get on with your life [again]? You even blew it by referencing the wrong page in Budge.

Nop, that is the exact page that defines “Metu”.

Sami_RaMaati

09-29-2006, 02:51 AM

Nope, the Hieroglyphs have absolutely nothing in common just like you said on arguing about “Anu” and “Aamu”. In that argument you were not willing to accept or make excuses for “phonetics”.

I have never engaged in any argument about "Anu" and "Aamu" in this or any other forum, so stop lying.

Thus “Metu” and “Medw” are not the same in any way.

Of course they are. In this language, phonetically speaking, the letter "w" when transliterating has the same sound as the letter "u", and are therefore interchangeable just as the letters "d" and "t" are phonetically interchangeable. You're just too ignorant to know it.

Nop, that is the exact page that defines “Metu”.

Wrong again. The page you referenced---page 331 in Budge's dictionary--- has nothing to do with "Metu Neter" as used in this thread. The correct page # in Budge, which you conveniently failed to reference, is 335, which defines "Metu" as "word, speech, command, order." Since you're the one who whining about wanting to know the correct translation of "metu", it's right there in Budge's dictionary which YOU swear by, on page 335.

Here it is for the benefit of the onlookers who don't have the dictionary (the arrows point to the definition):

http://divinebynature.tripod.com/metu_neter_budge.gif

This is distinctly different in meaning from page 331 which you incorrectly referenced in Budge's dictionary:

http://www.songbeatsrapbeats.com/metu.jpg

Music Producer

09-29-2006, 03:26 AM

ANUK_AUSAR

09-29-2006, 02:25 PM

The only way for any of us to claim your statement is that we blindly accept that the book is titled “Medw Neter”. Due to my respect of the author of the book I must go with what the author himself who wrote the title not once but twice, “Metu Neter”.

You can argue with the author all you want.

LOL @ this see-through tactic. Anybody who can read can see that Sami equated "METU" with "MEDW," that the two are interchangeable. You can accept that as such in the case of the "Anu" and "Aamu" but not for "Metu" and "Medw" which are pronounced *exactly* the same way in the Ausar Auset Society?

The romanized "T" is most often a "D" sound in the AAS.

You're like a politician, but unskilled.

Peace.

ShemsiEnTehuti

09-29-2006, 02:51 PM

Nope, the Hieroglyphs have absolutely nothing in common just like you said on arguing about “Anu” and “Aamu”. In that argument you were not willing to accept or make excuses for “phonetics”. Thus “Metu” and “Medw” are not the same in any way.

You simply amaze me at how much you talk about Kemet, yet know so little. Look MP, if you could actually read Kemetic script (like I can) then you would know that the letter "u", as well as all other vowels with exception of "A" is not even in the Kemetic alphabet. Therefore, the word "Metu" never existed in the Kemetic language. The "w" is phonetically pronounced with an "woo" or "oo" sound, so Western linguistics has chosen to replace the "w" for "u". Just as in King Tut's real name, TwtAnkhAmen; Western linguistics have rendered his name TutAnkhAmen. Often times, the "w" at the end of a word only denotes plurality. The name of the language/writing of Kemet directly transliterated is "Mdw Ntr". All vowels you have seen used are from Western linguists attempting to make it easier to pronounce for the unlearned.

Music Producer

09-29-2006, 03:48 PM

ShemsiEnTehuti

09-29-2006, 05:54 PM

SAMURAI36

09-29-2006, 06:00 PM

:jawdrop: :drink:

LOL.

The reality is, many authors and modern-day writers attempt to transliterate the spelling into English, the way it sounds in Kemau.

We are taught that METU NETER is pronounced "Meet-you Neat-hair", with the "T's" being softened.

The same thing applies with TEHUTI, which actually sounds more like "Dyeh-Who-Tay"....This is also why the author draws the correlation between the Kemetic Deity of Wisdom, and the Asian/Oriental System TAO-TE CHING, which is not only pronounced the same way, but also has virtually the same meaning.

Thus, to argue over the spelling of "METU, MEDU, MEDWU, etc" is extremely petty and trite.

PEACE

nibs

09-29-2006, 07:11 PM

(Music Producer) - The only way for any of us to claim your statement is that we blindly accept that the book is titled “Medw Neter”. Due to my respect of the author of the book I must go with what the author himself who wrote the title not once but twice, “Metu Neter”.

You can argue with the author all you want.

you have seen scanned pages of budge's definition of metu. it's disingenuous for you to pretend your argument has any basis. end of story.

metu neter is a kemetian phrase for their spiritual writings, and not something ra un nefer amen came up with.

you can't get this wrong and claim to know what you are talking about.

you arguing the spelling of translated words. it's a meaningless argument. if the title were written in hieroglyphics, or hieratic or demotic...etc. maybe you would have a basis for this argument. you can't choose the "version" of metu you wish to understand; as it is a translated word.

your argument is beyond stubborn for these reasons.

nibs

09-29-2006, 08:39 PM

(I-khan)
book recommendation: Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cush Empire

http://www.amazon.com/Wonderful-Ethi...e=UTF8&s=books

I am more than half way through,and what caught my attention in particular is that when she mentioned that the 'nubians' gave the peoples of 'kmt' their spiritual system that the peoples of kmt may have not understood all of it.

that book is available online here:
Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cush Empire (http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/we/index.htm)

it looks like the argument is that the original religion became distorted because the priests of amun lost their grasp on the nation, as it became polluted by foreign rule:

Egypt was inhabited in ancient days by two races or two distinct divisions of one race. Ancient records all testify that the ruling class in those times was the Ethiopian. They founded the powerful priest caste.
<snip>
"This priesthood included the judges, physicians, astrologers, architects--in a word they united within themselves all the highest culture and the most distinguished offices of the land."
<snip>
"The laws, customs, religious observances and letters of the ancient Egyptians closely resembled the Ethiopians, the colony still observing the customs of their ancestors." Egyptians in later days affirmed, that they and their civilization came from the black tribes of Punt.
<snip>

Amenophis IV. tried to establish a new religion. Open war broke out between him and the priests of Amen. In enforced flight he retired to a new capital. Weakened by this strife he lost his hold upon the Asiatic provinces. The close of his reign found Egypt shorn of all that had been won by his predecessors. His successor speedily made peace with the priests of Amen and was permitted to be buried in the royal burying ground. Dynasty XIX, 1300 B. C. brings us to Ramses I and Seti I who restored the waning glory of Egypt.
<snip>

In XXII Dynasty of Egypt, the country having become so intermingled with foreign blood, the main body of the priests of Amen, who had ruled so long at Thebes, emigrated into Ethiopia. Favors shown foreigners so displeased the military class that they deserted in a body to Ethiopia, 240,000 soldiers. Pharaoh made overtures to them but they would not return. These were the former ruling class of Egypt returning to the land and culture from which they had originated

<snip>
No intelligent Egyptian worshipped the bull. It was only the symbol that represented Osiris. Any offense to it was an insult to him. Therefore the sacred animals were respected as deities.

<snip>
Reclus declares, <snip> Earlier works of art show the Egyptians to have been a kindly people who did not believe in charms. As the ages succeeded and Egypt became mingled with other races, her arts declined, she seemed to forget the meaning of her religion, and finally only animal worship remained.

<snip>
Budge in Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, preface, tells us, "that the knowledge of the Egyptian priests of the real meaning of their religion after 1200 B. C. seemed extremely vague and uncertain. The early beliefs became buried in magic spells and amulets." Only a few clung to the old faith. 3400 B. C., Egypt had possessed a conception of truth, justice and righteousness. He continues page XIV, "that all characteristics indicate that the Egyptian religion was of African rather than Asiatic origin. Its true form died about 3000 years ago. The best explanation of the Egyptian religion could only be obtained from the religion of the Soudan." The priest caste of Egypt had been Ethiopian and the first rulers priest-kings. As they were overthrown the priesthood was not able so perfectly to dominate the thought of the empire. When the priests of Amen, the Ethiopian priesthood emigrated to Napata it is clear why Egypt lost the inner meaning of the religious cults.

omowalejabali

09-30-2006, 12:47 AM

I-khan

09-30-2006, 11:58 AM

SAMURAI36

09-30-2006, 01:53 PM

Music Producer

09-30-2006, 02:34 PM

omowalejabali

09-30-2006, 02:55 PM

I appreciate the clarification, I am also reading some works (ie www.nilevalleycivilization.com) that claim to have found migratory patterns that lead from west afruaka to the ta-seti/kmt area and back again over a course of thousands of years.

brother I-khan,

If you can somehow find this book you may find it useful.

It was published by the Republic of Ghana in 1979 and is authored by Osafo K. Osei, M.A. and entitled "African Heritage of the Akan".

It speaks to 'the Seven Original Families of the Akan'.

I mention this because "The Akan language is said to be Sudanic in nature."

Of the 12 "principal tribes" of particular is the NZIMA, which has a sub-clan known as the AXIM.

AXIM, AXUM.....signifies a possible relation.

omowalejabali

09-30-2006, 03:18 PM

Hotep

All Languages originated from the "First" language ever spoken by Hue-Mans...that is the "TWI". The TWI is the Absolute Origin of every and all spoken Languages...even unto this very day...are only variasions of the African TWI Language. The TWI people are the "Original" so-called African...that the African them self call the "Ancient-Ones" of whom Menis (little-people) was one of those great ones who during his administration and leadership..."United" all of (Merita) so-called Africa..."Upper and Lower"...Kemet (KMT). Understand...The whole of Africa and the (Tamert) Earth was called Kemet or KMT in ancient times and the small part we know of today (Egypt) was only the Capital of the "World" at that time. Know Thy Self and Know G-d and know how great you really are...African!

Ase`

http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Twi.htm
http://www.language.com.au/twi.html
http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/lang.html
http://www.fiankoma.org/schoolsite/yourname.htm :spinstar:

Note: when it is said that "We" gave the world Civilization...that is Absolutely true and correct...the europians and every one else knows except the African (some) and African in (most) Amerikkka.

I did not address this post earlier but will do so now.

:bullseye:

Brother Moorfius was right on point and most other discussion/debate has drifted from the original question which I find typically to be the case.

However, according to the Akan, "Twi" along with "Fante" is a subdivision, not the ROOT LANGUAGE.

This speaks again to the Original Seven Families of the Akan and the 12 "principal tribes".

Brother Music Producer,

On another issue allow me to share something else if I may.

Many have asserted that "Kemet" and "Nubian" are one and the same and have spoken of a "race" known as the ANU, which we know also is the name of a Sumerian God of the Sky who was the Father of En.Ki.

If you check carefully Budge's Hieroglyphic dictionary

Amu=nomad Nubian Tribes
Amu=an asiatic
Atmu=the Creative soul of the 7th Creation
(see Auumit or Amut)

an, anu= scribe, scribes, educated, learned, title deeds, book, pages of a book, written papers

antu= division or boundary of land
aten= a disk or orb

Take the Sanskrit "Om" or AUM" and we find a relation to the "utterance" AMU.

As I tried to explain earlier, the "Anu" were not a "RACE" but a "CLASS" or "CASTE". They were, in essence, a class of Srribes who were charged with the task of Recording or the "reckoning of Time"

Thus in Sumerian they are equated with the Anu.N.Ki, the "Sons of Anu (The Chief Scribe" who were charged as the Watchers over Time and were also known as the Elohim and the Grigori.

The "aten" defines as a disk or orb, can and was applied to the sun, the moon , Osiris (Sirius), Isis (Sothis, Auset), Horus (Mars) etc. In the earlier period when the Lunar Calendar was in use, the "Aten" was equated with the Moon. To the Mayans it was equated with "venus" and formed the system by which they utilized the Venus Calendar.

Now let me explain how this came to me. Fasting from meat the past four days and meditating. Taking the utterance "OM" which also is AUM then studying and finding the correlation to the AMU.

There are very few references to the AMU in all the texts I have studied and for obvious reason. I will refrain for stating my opinion why this is the case but I do find very interesting how the numbers "7" and "12" in relation to the Original Families and 12 principal tribes is SIMILAR to what has been recorded in the His-Storical accounts of the Hebrew" and the "Egyptian".

Peace...

Music Producer

09-30-2006, 05:55 PM

Amu=an asiatic
I suspect this one to be a lie. When ever the white man finds information that leads to the establishment of greatness or technology no matter where he is or what the image looks like he will automatically deduce the ancient information as being his people or a reference to him………..
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/teraneter.html

Amu, Aamu, Anu, Ann-u is just to close of a pronunciation for us to simply accept the Hyksos as being Caucasians when the Hyksos are referred to as “Aamu people”.

I think we should look at the original Egyptian name to describe the Hyksos, “hikau khausut”
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm

Do you find a translation for “hikau khausut”?

omowalejabali

09-30-2006, 08:47 PM

I suspect this one to be a lie. When ever the white man finds information that leads to the establishment of greatness or technology no matter where he is or what the image looks like he will automatically deduce the ancient information as being his people or a reference to him………..
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/teraneter.html

Amu, Aamu, Anu, Ann-u is just to close of a pronunciation for us to simply accept the Hyksos as being Caucasians when the Hyksos are referred to as “Aamu people”.

I think we should look at the original Egyptian name to describe the Hyksos, “hikau khausut”
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm

Do you find a translation for “hikau khausut”?

Quote:

"I think we should look at the original Egyptian name to describe the Hyksos, "hikau khasut"

I agree, however Im not sure if Troy Fox is an authority on this matter. What original texts is this mentioned because I have found no other source mentioning such by that name.

As far as my earlier statement concerning the "Anu" or the Amu" I was simpply citing how each has been translated. I did not mention that "Anu" was also the name of a "nome God" or that there also was that by the name of "aamu".

Also, The word "Kemet" is not exactly the same as the name for "Kush" which was Kes, or Kest.

Quite frankly, I am going more at this point by written TEXTS rather than articles posted on websites.

If I find a reference to the 'hikau khasut' (hka khst) in one of my texts I will let you know.

omowalejabali

09-30-2006, 09:01 PM

Note:

Each reference that I have found concerning the term in which you inquire is based upon Manetho's etymology which was written in the 3rd century B.C.

I am searching for written material that established that the hyksos were referenced by this name prior to the writings of Manetho, particularly in hieratic script.

ShemsiEnTehuti

10-01-2006, 05:37 PM

I appreciate the clarification, I am also reading some works (ie www.nilevalleycivilization.com) that claim to have found migratory patterns that lead from west afruaka to the ta-seti/kmt area and back again over a course of thousands of years.

I have a link to a documentary on the migratory patterns of the Africans who inhabited the Sahara when it was actually fertile land thousands of years before Dynastic Kemet. This shows a continuous African civilized presence from the Atlantic Ocean to the Nile Valley. It shows that once the climate changed, the people were forced to search for a steady supply of water to the South and East, being the Niger and Nile Rivers.

http://www.lincoln.edu/history/his307/kmt-clips/dvdsn-01-sahara.wmv

Dr. Chiekh Anta Diop also mentions this in his African Origin of Civilization. Oh yeah, there is an important note in this video that Music Producer should take heed since he is so adamant that the Asiatic Hyksos brought chariotry into Africa. Thousands of years before Dynastic Kemet, the formation of chariots were found in these cave paintings of the Sahara; these are the same people who migrated into the Nile Valley millenia before the Hyksos period in Kemet.

Music Producer

10-01-2006, 06:38 PM

High Priest:

How is your study going, have you found anything yet?

High Priest

10-01-2006, 08:54 PM

what I have found , is that, "Medu Mba" in Bamileke language is not a sacramental practice as I said before. As a result I take that one out. Now, In Bamileke language ( in Kameroon west Africa) the word "Medu Mba" means :<< I speak wisdom or the Words of wisdom, the words of the wise . GOD>> And this is in African language.Bamileke. And the autor of this translation is Mr P. Mandjudja Nguegang .He says on his website (the site is in french) that Metu Neter and Medu Mba are the same things. Here is the WebPage ;http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/francais/articles/medu-neter.html Now, I will advise that , any one interested in Metu Neter or Medu Mba should learn Bamileke language and find out more. To finish, I will say that, I`m African myself from Ivory Coast west Africa so I don`t need to go to Africa to know , as someone said it before.

Bless you all.

Music Producer

10-01-2006, 09:27 PM

omowalejabali

10-01-2006, 10:05 PM

nibs

11-10-2006, 02:21 PM

Music Producer

11-10-2006, 02:34 PM

SAMURAI36

11-10-2006, 03:06 PM

(SAMURAI36) - http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780964066113&itm=1

This is the only dictionary I go by now

(Music Producer) - Sorry dude but I have been looking at several Hieroglyphic Dictionaries besides Wallis Budge because I like to get more input and the one thing that has stopped me from buying other Hieroglyphic Dictionaries is the price tag. I aint about to buy no book for no $131.

i was able to get a copy of "let the ancestor's speak" from afriware (http://www.afriware.net/booklist.htm) for $19.95. it is actually a grammar study guide and not a pure dictionary. it teaches to read, write and understand medu. thus, it's more of a compliment to budge's dictionaries, and will provide a more correct pronunciation.

I would only slightly disagree with at least part of your statement:

While it's true that it is not a mere "pure dictionary", it still goes into great detail, with defining terms in Kemetic language. In this respect, it serves more as an anti-thesis of Budges work, moreso than a compliment.

Also, as a grammar tool, it's not to be underestimated. It gives clear definitions of the shift in cursory style of Kemau throughout the ages, as well as definitive explanations of the Kemetic numeral system--all of which Budge's work fails to do.

For that matter, you would need more than just a mere dictionary, in order to truly understand the Kemetic language. For example, no one questions how Budge had even come up with his interpretations of the words; how did he conclude that one word meant "tree" in Kemau, and another word meant "water"? Outside of the Rosetta Stone, what was his criterion?

PEACE

Music Producer

11-10-2006, 03:17 PM

You just answered you own question.

Outside of the Rosetta Stone, what was his criterion?

The Rosetta Stone was the ONLY find that is the foundation for all Egyptian to eventual English translations.

nibs

11-10-2006, 03:22 PM

(SAMURAI36) - I would only slightly disagree with at least part of your statement:

While it's true that it is not a mere "pure dictionary", it still goes into great detail, with defining terms in Kemetic language. In this respect, it serves more as an anti-thesis of Budges work, moreso than a compliment.

Also, as a grammar tool, it's not to be underestimated. It gives clear definitions of the shift in cursory style of Kemau throughout the ages, as well as definitive explanations of the Kemetic numeral system--all of which Budge's work fails to do.

i absolutely agree with you. in attempting to understand medu, "let the ancestors speak" is the principle guide. in terms of understanding or pronunciation, "let the ancestors speak" must take precedent to all of budges works.

you wouldn't "learn english" by reading a dictionary. thus you don't "learn" medu by studying budge's dictionaries.

also, budge's "first steps in egyptian hieroglyphics" is woefully inadequate in comparison to "let the ancestors speak".

i agree with you 100% on the importance of this book.

nibs

11-10-2006, 03:25 PM

SAMURAI36

11-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Music Producer

11-10-2006, 05:00 PM

(Music Producer) - You just answered you own question.

The Rosetta Stone was the ONLY find that is the foundation for all Egyptian to eventual English translations.

this is only true to the european world.

medu was preserved in africa.
we know that the dogon, igbo, akan and yoruba were all in kemet at one point. i don't know how many more tribes were present.
as medu was reserved for spiritual texts, it is kept in secret.

"let the ancestors speak" addresses part of the connection.
“Let the ancestors Speak”, is it or is it not a hieroglyphic dictionary in which I can use to translate several Egyptian stories of the gods?

Please name the tribes in Africa today that can read Egyptian Hieroglyphs and did not obtain the ability from European studies.

as medu was reserved for spiritual texts, it is kept in secret.

As far as I know, through my study of Dogon, they continue to have no written language and never have had one, there is no use for it because the elders of the people transmit religiously to the younger what they need to know and understand about themselves as a people. The text at the bottom pages of the Pale Fox is indeed only an English sound equivalency of the Dogon singing a song.

If we use this to recapture the original Egyptian sounds, tongue and meaning then the names of all Egyptian gods would have to be dropped and referring to them as gods would have to be dropped etc….. The entire concept of Egyptian theology that has been manifested and put fourth by Europeans in their own studies would have to be dropped because the Dogon are Monotheist and Amma is the ONLY Being they refer to as GOD, all others are ancestors.

And actually when one does a true reading and takes an in-depth look at the Dogon song of Creation. One realizes what they call ancestors are in reality chemicals, elements and microscopic biological organisms that were created and used by Amma to manifest the Universe, to put life in Himself as the Universe.
I have not completed my reading of the Pale Fox, once I do I will be able to elaborate more.

I will tell you this…..I just finished reading a particular section last night and it even reveals the origin of the Crucifixion.

MoorNegusNegast

11-10-2006, 05:28 PM

“Let the ancestors Speak”, is it or is it not a hieroglyphic dictionary in which I can use to translate several Egyptian stories of the gods?

Please name the tribes in Africa today that can read Egyptian Hieroglyphs and did not obtain the ability from European studies.

As far as I know, through my study of Dogon, they continue to have no written language and never have had one, there is no use for it because the elders of the people transmit religiously to the younger what they need to know and understand about themselves as a people. The text at the bottom pages of the Pale Fox is indeed only an English sound equivalency of the Dogon singing a song.

If we use this to recapture the original Egyptian sounds, tongue and meaning then the names of all Egyptian gods would have to be dropped and referring to them as gods would have to be dropped etc….. The entire concept of Egyptian theology that has been manifested and put fourth by Europeans in their own studies would have to be dropped because the Dogon are Monotheist and Amma is the ONLY Being they refer to as GOD, all others are ancestors.

And actually when one does a true reading and takes an in-depth look at the Dogon song of Creation. One realizes what they call ancestors are in reality chemicals, elements and microscopic biological organisms that were created and used by Amma to manifest the Universe, to put life in Himself as the Universe.
I have not completed my reading of the Pale Fox, once I do I will be able to elaborate more.

I will tell you this…..I just finished reading a particular section last night and it even reveals the origin of the Crucifixion.

i have read that the Dogon were actually the priest class in Egypt at one time....forgot where i read it tho

nibs

11-10-2006, 06:18 PM

nibs

11-10-2006, 06:21 PM

(Music Producer) - “Let the ancestors Speak”, is it or is it not a hieroglyphic dictionary in which I can use to translate several Egyptian stories of the gods?

if you want to learn to speak and read hieroglyphics, i'd suggest getting "let the ancestors speak". additionally, you will be able to appreciate the more subtle meaning of the glyphs. if you want to translate kemetic stories on your own, i would definitely reccommending getting "let the ancestors speak".

however, i am very concerned with what your translations will say :)

SAMURAI36

11-10-2006, 06:40 PM

Music Producer

11-10-2006, 08:58 PM

(Music Producer) - Please name the tribes in Africa today that can read Egyptian Hieroglyphs and did not obtain the ability from European studies.

i have also heard that the dogon were kemetic priests, and were able to read medu. we have the stories of priestly castes in kemet fleeing on multiple occasions.
also, under king khufu, a brotherhood of priests was setup across africa by one of khufu's high priests.

the igbo state that they were in kemet and left, in the book "after god is dibia vol 2" it is mentioned that the igbo had several scripts that were reserved for spiritual teachings and only known to the priesthood. but the exact nature of the scripts isn't stated.

(Music Producer) - As far as I know, through my study of Dogon, they continue to have no written language and never have had one there is no use for it because the elders of the people transmit religiously to the younger what they need to know and understand about themselves as a people.

it's my understanding that written language was preserved, reserved for spiritual teachings, and is a secret reserved only for some initiated priests in a tribe. thus, a european studying the dogon may not have been told, and may not have spoken with someone who would know this.

when the yoruba, igbo, akan, dogon...etc all literally state that their ancestors were in kemet; and we know kemet had written language...why do we believe that written language was lost?

the greeks got their script from canaan, canaan was black. diop documents this.
it's really the europeans that never developed a script.

(Music Producer) - the Dogon are Monotheist and Amma is the ONLY Being they refer to as GOD, all others are ancestors.

in this forum we've demonstrated that you are wrong abou the dogon. the dogon are not monotheists as you believe. i don't understand how you have come to that conclusion based on the books in your posession.

i have also heard that the dogon were kemetic priests, and were able to read medu. we have the stories of priestly castes in kemet fleeing on multiple occasions.
also, under king khufu, a brotherhood of priests was setup across africa by one of khufu's high priests.

the igbo state that they were in kemet and left, in the book "after god is dibia vol 2" it is mentioned that the igbo had several scripts that were reserved for spiritual teachings and only known to the priesthood. but the exact nature of the scripts isn't stated.

Well, this would all be fine and dandy but the problem is the Dogon have an Oral history of being in Egypt that predates the flooding of the earth. They say the reason they left Egypt is because they were warned by the Nummo to get away from the river and go to high land which is one of the reasons they continue to this day to make their villages literally on mountain tops and high lands. Thus the Dogon story of being in Egypt predates any dynastic period.

it's my understanding that written language was preserved, reserved for spiritual teachings, and is a secret reserved only for some initiated priests in a tribe. thus, a european studying the dogon may not have been told, and may not have spoken with someone who would know this.

I doubt that is true seeing I just read a section in the Pale Fox where they allowed photos to be taken of the initiation table and explained it in detail and did the same with the divination table and also allowed the team to photograph sacred drawings. I suspect Griaule was initiated because the Dogon understood what he would do with the information. One of the first things Ogotemmeli said to Griaule was, “GOD sent you, GOD sent you”, and then he explained that the information he was about to receive is for all mankind to receive.

It will be difficult to destroy or alter Griaule’s works because of the original sounding English representation of the Dogon Song. It shows that as Griaule was recording this, the Priest was singing the entire thing. The best thing I like about how it was recorded is it was translated into English by a Dogon who had learned the English language instead of the other way around.

in this forum we've demonstrated that you are wrong abou the dogon. the dogon are not monotheists as you believe. i don't understand how you have come to that conclusion based on the books in your posession.

What other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

I understand why you will try to destroy the Dogon theology. You have read the books and you have seen where Kemet barrowed, corrupted and twisted their ideals and instead of revealing the Truth of this, you have elected to misrepresent the Dogon in order to protect the Kemet version.

This is wrong in principal and morality.

nibs

11-10-2006, 10:13 PM

(SAMURAI36) - If that's the case, and if the DOGON were a mere part of these remnants, then their theology is also a mere remnant. And since they have no written language (spiritually exclusive or otherwise), then we have no way of proving any assertion about it.

it's my understanding that kemet was a confederation of african tribes, and the dogon was apart of that confederation. master naba at the earth center is a dogon spiritual healer that teaches a kemetic doctrine; including medu. they say the dogon have medu neter papyrus that aren't shown outside of africa.

here is master naba's answer to this issue:
http://www.theearthcenter.com/index.php?home/faq#21
21. I have heard of the Dogon and I have heard of Kemet but I thought they were two different things. How are they related? How can he (Master Naba) be both?

There are misconceptions surrounding both the Dogon and Kemet. Kemet is a territory much larger than just Ancient "Egypt" it is determined by value and spiritual system. The Dogon are made up of certain bloodlines whose job it was to protect the highest knowledge of the universe. The bloodlines are dispersed through Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger.

nibs

11-10-2006, 10:29 PM

Music Producer

11-11-2006, 12:15 AM

(Music Producer) - I doubt that is true seeing I just read a section in the Pale Fox where they allowed photos to be taken of the initiation table and explained it in detail and did the same with the divination table and also allowed the team to photograph sacred drawings. I suspect Griaule was initiated because the Dogon understood what he would do with the information.

there is no reason to believe that the european observers know all of dogon knowledge that there is to know other than the fact that you wish to believe that.

(Music Producer) - What other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

do you deny that they pray and making offerings to their ancestors and the nummo?

(Music Producer) - I understand why you will try to destroy the Dogon theology.

we've argued this before, and you didn't have a response for the words in the books you claim to own. entire chapters are dedicated to explaining the worship of beings other than amma.

honestly i think you would be outraged if you visited the dogon.

let's look at the earth center's claim regarding religion:
http://www.theearthcenter.com/index.php?home/faq#26
26. What religion is this associated with?

The Earth Center is a spiritual center that teaches a greater understanding of what is required to live a spiritual life. It far predates all religions, as well as the practice of choosing to honor one God over others (monotheism).

now, why should we discount what a dogon spiritual healer has to say?

is there any reason to think that master naba's ideas, which are in sync with other atr's and the kemetic teachings we know of; are somehow less credible than your interpretation that demonstrably contradicts the sources (european observers) you cite?

there is no reason to believe that the european observers know all of dogon knowledge that there is to know other than the fact that you wish to believe that.

There is no reason to believe that the Dogon would have left out critical understanding of Amma when they knew the European would publish a book revealing knowledge designated as being for all humans.

I personally have no reason to misrepresent the information I obtain from the Europeans observations. You however do, “Earth Center”, “Master Naba”, for the group, for the maintaining of the spiritual sect, which you seem to be apart of, or considering membership.

do you deny that they pray and making offerings to their ancestors and the nummo?

No sir, I don’t deny that at all. Now I will ask you my question again…….
What other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

we've argued this before, and you didn't have a response for the words in the books you claim to own. entire chapters are dedicated to explaining the worship of beings other than amma.

honestly i think you would be outraged if you visited the dogon.

I probably would and I would ask for direction to the alter to Amma, whom is the only Being the Dogon refer to as GOD. They also get extremely angry when you refer to them as polytheistic or totemic as Griaule recorded how the Dogon was about to vanquish the entire European team for trying to do so, as Griaule described it as an extremely intense moment in which they had to stop using the word totemic in front of the people.

let's look at the earth center's claim regarding religion:
http://www.theearthcenter.com/index.php?home/faq#26
26. What religion is this associated with?

The Earth Center is a spiritual center that teaches a greater understanding of what is required to live a spiritual life. It far predates all religions, as well as the practice of choosing to honor one God over others (monotheism).

This is good but it shows degradation in Dogon thought. This is the way it should read….

…as well as the practice of choosing to honor one God.

There is no “over others” because the Dogon know no “others”, nor acknowledge them as such.

Further more this information from the Earth Center reveals a conflict in your personal thought of the Dogon practice as being polytheistic and reveals that only you and those of the Kemetic promotion desire it to be as such.

I was correct in describing the Dogon as Monotheistic, which is clearly explained in Griaule’s observations.

now, why should we discount what a dogon spiritual healer has to say?

I don’t recall myself doing so.

is there any reason to think that master naba's ideas, which are in sync with other atr's and the kemetic teachings we know of; are somehow less credible than your interpretation that demonstrably contradicts the sources (european observers) you cite?

As far as I see from what you took from their web page there is no contradiction between Griaule and Earth Center. The contradiction comes from you thus far when you try to sync Kemet (Polytheistic) and Dogon (Monotheistic) concepts and fail to reveal that Kemet theology became a corruption of what the Dogon present.

The Dogon are made up of certain bloodlines whose job it was to protect the highest knowledge of the universe.

Thus we can begin to accept that Kemet became a corruption of the protected highest knowledge.

nibs

11-12-2006, 10:09 PM

(Music Producer) - There is no reason to believe that the Dogon would have left out critical understanding of Amma when they knew the European would publish a book revealing knowledge designated as being for all humans.

your logic is baseless and circular.
ogotemmeli states directly to the european that some of the things he says are tailored for the european.
it is stated directly that ogotemmeli doesn't care much for the europeans, or hold anything against them. he leaves them to their fate. thus, he is not trying to preach to change the world, as you are suggesting.

(Music Producer) - No sir, I don’t deny that at all. Now I will ask you my question again…….
What other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

we again reach the crux of your misunderstanding.
god is a german/english word. you are relying on suspect translations by europeans to equate neter to god.

(Music Producer) - They also get extremely angry when you refer to them as polytheistic or totemic as Griaule recorded how the Dogon was about to vanquish the entire European team for trying to do so

noone in this thread has used the word "totemism". it is very dishonest for you to introduce the word "totemism" and try to use the dogon reaction to "totemism" in a discussion of who they worship.

by the way...what's the significance of humans having animal twins, and every other animal having a complement...etc? human spirits using their animal twins for communication...etc.

(Music Producer) - I was correct in describing the Dogon as Monotheistic, which is clearly explained in Griaule’s observations.

you cannot deny that the dogon worship the nummo, that actually finished creation as amma abandoned it.
you cannot deny that the dogon make offerings and prayers to the spirits of their ancestors, the first man...etc.

Music Producer

11-12-2006, 10:57 PM

Nibs:

What other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

nibs

11-13-2006, 09:05 AM

the word "god" does not exist in the dogon language, that is an english/german word.

nor does the word "god" exist in kemet.

we should not disrespect african religions by viewing them through the spiritually blind eyes of european observers and thought.

nibs

11-13-2006, 09:10 AM

the bible prohibits communicating with spirits, prophecy/divination, making offerings or bowing to anything other than "yahweh"...etc. the dogon (who are not a completely homogenous people, and you only know of the shangha from ogotemmeli) violate all of these biblical prohibitions.
the nummo are worshipped; prayers offerings are made to human ancestral spirits and other spirits

Music Producer

11-13-2006, 09:57 AM

And what makes you thank the Dogon People are not beyond corruption?
The difference between Dogon and Kemet is the Dogon do it to maintain a perspective Kemet did not.

Kemet called anything and everything Neter. The Dogon only call the Supreme Being Neter, period.

Yes, the final vision of Akhenaten banned a lot of practices of the Dogon and it also banned a lot of practices of Egypt, so what is your point?

SAMURAI36

11-13-2006, 10:06 AM

(SAMURAI36) - If that's the case, and if the DOGON were a mere part of these remnants, then their theology is also a mere remnant. And since they have no written language (spiritually exclusive or otherwise), then we have no way of proving any assertion about it.

it's my understanding that kemet was a confederation of african tribes, and the dogon was apart of that confederation.

While I and ANUK have spoken upon the first assertion here, I have yet to see historical evidence for the second assertion (not to say that it is not true).

master naba at the earth center is a dogon spiritual healer that teaches a kemetic doctrine; including medu. they say the dogon have medu neter papyrus that aren't shown outside of africa.

Good info; I've been wanting to learn under MASTER NABA for a while anyways.

here is master naba's answer to this issue:
http://www.theearthcenter.com/index.php?home/faq#21
21. I have heard of the Dogon and I have heard of Kemet but I thought they were two different things. How are they related? How can he (Master Naba) be both?

There are misconceptions surrounding both the Dogon and Kemet. Kemet is a territory much larger than just Ancient "Egypt" it is determined by value and spiritual system. The Dogon are made up of certain bloodlines whose job it was to protect the highest knowledge of the universe. The bloodlines are dispersed through Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger.

Does the MASTER have info regarding how old the DOGON's blood line is, or how far it goes back?

PEACE

MoorNegusNegast

11-13-2006, 11:44 AM

MoorNegusNegast

11-13-2006, 12:06 PM

i remember seeing a papyrus (or something to that effect) in a book or at lecture showing the dogon priest in egypt...if i remember correctly the dogon priest wore like a cheetah garment and their hair was braided in certain way.....its been years but i do remember seeing that..

the dogon were very powerful and mysterious people....did any of you know that the dogon and the hopi 'indians' had identical tribal gear and dances?

http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/siriusb.htm

In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. The Dogon are believed to be of Egyptian decent and their astronomical lore goes back thousands of years to 3200 BC. According to their traditions, the star Sirius has a companion star which is invisible to the human eye. This companion star has a 50 year elliptical orbit around the visible Sirius and is extremely heavy. It also rotates on its axis.

This legend might be of little interest to anybody but the two French anthropologists, Marcel Griaule and Germain Dieterlen, who recorded it from four Dogon priests in the 1930's. Of little interest except that it is exactly true. How did a people who lacked any kind of astronomical devices know so much about an invisible star? The star, which scientists call Sirius B, wasn't even photographed until it was done by a large telescope in 1970.

The Dogon stories explain that also. According to their oral traditions, a race people from the Sirius system called the Nommos visited Earth thousands of years ago. The Nommos were ugly, amphibious beings that resembled mermen and mermaids. They also appear in Babylonian, Accadian, and Sumerian myths. The Egyptian Goddess Isis, who is sometimes depicted as a mermaid, is also linked with the star Sirius.

The Nommos, according to the Dogon legend, lived on a planet that orbits another star in the Sirius system. They landed on Earth in an "ark" that made a spinning decent to the ground with great noise and wind. It was the Nommos that gave the Dogon the knowledge about Sirius B.

The legend goes on to say the Nommos also furnished the Dogon's with some interesting information about our own solar system: That the planet Jupiter has four major moons, that Saturn has rings and that the planets orbit the sun. These were all facts discovered by Westerners only after Galileo invented the telescope.

The story of the Dogon and their legend was first brought to popular attention by Robert K.G. Temple in a book published in 1977 called The Sirius Mystery. Science writer Ian Ridpath and astronomer Carl Sagan made a reply to Temple's book, suggesting that this modern knowledge about Sirius must have come from Westerners who discussed astronomy with the Dogon priests. The priests then included this new information into the older traditions. This, in turn, mislead the anthropologists.

This is a possibility considering Sirius B's existence was suspected as early as 1844 and seen was through a telescope in 1862. It doesn't seem to explain a 400-year old Dogon artifact that apparently depicts the Sirius configuration nor the ceremonies held by the Dogon since the 13th century to celebrate the cycle of Sirius A and B. It also doesn't explain how the Dogons knew about the super-density of Sirius B, a fact only discovered a few years before the anthropologists recorded the Dogon stories.

It is also important to remember that although many parts of the Dogon legends seem to ring true, other portions are clearly mistaken. One of the Dogon's beliefs is that Sirius B occupied the place where our Sun is now. Physics clearly prohibits this. Also, if the Dogon believe that Sirius B orbits Sirius A every 50 years, why do they hold their celebrations every 60 years?

Sirius A is the brightest star in our sky and can easily be seen in the winter months in the northern hemisphere. Look for the constellation Orion. Orion's belt are the three bright stars in a row. Follow an imaginary line through the three stars to Sirius which is just above the horizon. It is bluish in color.

Sirius is only 8.6 light years from Earth. Astronomer W.Bessel was the first to suspect that Sirius had an invisible companion when he observed that the path of the star wobbled. In the 1920's it was determined that Sirius B, the companion of Sirius, was a "white dwarf" star. The pull of its gravity caused Sirius's wavy movement.

White dwarfs are small, dense stars that burn dimly. Sirius B is, in fact, smaller than the planet Earth. One teaspoon of Sirius B is so dense that it weighs 5 tons.

So did alien fish-men pay a visit to ancient Earth and give the Dogon their knowledge? Or was the Dogon's culture contaminated by western visitors? Or could the Dogon's have had ancient technical or non-technical means to find this information out? Or is the whole thing just a matter of coincidence?

The question maybe settled as larger and more powerful telescopes take a look at the Sirius system. According to the legend there is a third star: Sirius C, and it is around Sirius C that the home planet of the Nommos orbits. Most scientists do not consider any part of the Sirius system a prime candidate for life, though.

When Temple first issued his book in the 1970's there was no solid evidence of a Sirius C. In 1995, however, two French researchers, Daniel Benest and J.L. Duvent, authored an article in the prestigious journal Astronomy and Astrophysics with the title Is Sirius a Triple Star? and suggested (based on observations of motions in the Sirius system) there is a small third star there. They thought the star was probably of a type known as a "red dwarf" and only had about .05 the mass of Sirius B.

So has the home star of the Nommos been discovered? Or is this just another strange coincidence?

Book: The Sirius Mystery: New Scientific Evidence

SAMURAI36

11-13-2006, 12:29 PM

Thanks for your input, Brother MOOR.....allow me to expound:

In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. The Dogon are believed to be of Egyptian decent and their astronomical lore goes back thousands of years to 3200 BC. According to their traditions, the star Sirius has a companion star which is invisible to the human eye. This companion star has a 50 year elliptical orbit around the visible Sirius and is extremely heavy. It also rotates on its axis.

The second sentence in the above paragraph refutes all claims that the DOGON are the ancestors of Kemet, rather than vice versa.

Thus, the Dogon's theology is a result of Kemet, rather than the claims being made here by the uninformed, that Kemetic theology is a "corruption" of what the Dogon allegedly brought before, since the former is actually the latter, and the latter is the former.

So did alien fish-men pay a visit to ancient Earth and give the Dogon their knowledge? Or was the Dogon's culture contaminated by western visitors? Or could the Dogon's have had ancient technical or non-technical means to find this information out? Or is the whole thing just a matter of coincidence?

Again, the second sentence is most relevant. The world would know nothing of the Dogon and their "theology" outside of Africa, were it not for these Western White "scholars". In fact, the Dogon's presence (ethnically, culturally, and theologically) is an obscure one, even amongst other Africans and African systems.

And, we all know that White scholars have a propensity for misinterpreting all that is metaphorical and mythological.

MoorNegusNegast

11-13-2006, 01:00 PM

Again, the second sentence is most relevant. The world would know nothing of the Dogon and their "theology" outside of Africa, were it not for these Western White "scholars". In fact, the Dogon's presence (ethnically, culturally, and theologically) is an obscure one, even amongst other Africans and African systems.

And, we all know that White scholars have a propensity for misinterpreting all that is metaphorical and mythological.

im not here to argue either way, but i dnt see why the dogon couldnt of been priest in kemet at a particular time....also, how can u say the world wouldnt of known about the dogon theology if it wasnt for White scholars, but isnt that with most of the knowledge out there today? from my overstanding there were egyptians(rameses II i believe), olmecs, moors, phoeticans (sp?) and other 'black' pple traveling to and from africa and the americas forever....and like i mentioned earlier the Hopi 'indians' and the dogon have identical rituals.....could it be maybe the dogon came with the eyptians and intermingled with the hopi??

SAMURAI36

11-13-2006, 01:52 PM

im not here to argue either way, but i dnt see why the dogon couldnt of been priest in kemet at a particular time....also, how can u say the world wouldnt of known about the dogon theology if it wasnt for White scholars, but isnt that with most of the knowledge out there today? from my overstanding there were egyptians(rameses II i believe), olmecs, moors, phoeticans (sp?) and other 'black' pple traveling to and from africa and the americas forever....and like i mentioned earlier the Hopi 'indians' and the dogon have identical rituals.....could it be maybe the dogon came with the eyptians and intermingled with the hopi??

I absolutely agree, that indigenous culture dispersed about the earth, by way of diffusion. In fact, that was one of my points that I attempted to convey in THIS THREAD (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45264).

However, when I said that the White man brought this info to the world, i am speaking mostly in modern terms.

We live in the Age of Information. As such, info about any and everything is disseminated via technology and academics.

This correlates to my point, in that what the world knows about the DOGON, we have learned via the mechanics that the white man has set into motion.

The reality continues, that the DOGON is even still, a mostly unknown commodity, even in Africa. Hundreds of tribes enclose the Dogon in their territory, and even they know little about this very small tribe. For that matter, this tribe breaks up into even smaller sub-groups, many of whom cannot even understand one another linguistically.

Thus, my point is that the DOGON as a collective entity (whatever that is), is in no way prepared to disseminate their culture, theology, etc to the world.

I don't have a problem with the Dogon possibly being connected with Kemet in some form or fashion....Especially since, as you previously stated, that Kemet was basically a confederation of African Tribes and societies.

But again, an assertion was made here by someone else, that the DOGON were responsible for all things KEMETIC, in terms of theology (and culture by default). That is a far cry from the Dogon merely being a branch of Kemet.

PEACE

MoorNegusNegast

11-13-2006, 02:01 PM

I absolutely agree, that indigenous culture dispersed about the earth, by way of diffusion. In fact, that was one of my points that I attempted to convey in THIS THREAD (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45264).

However, when I said that the White man brought this info to the world, i am speaking mostly in modern terms.

We live in the Age of Information. As such, info about any and everything is disseminated via technology and academics.

This correlates to my point, in that what the world knows about the DOGON, we have learned via the mechanics that the white man has set into motion.

The reality continues, that the DOGON is even still, a mostly unknown commodity, even in Africa. Hundreds of tribes enclose the Dogon in their territory, and even they know little about this very small tribe. For that matter, this tribe breaks up into even smaller sub-groups, many of whom cannot even understand one another linguistically.

Thus, my point is that the DOGON as a collective entity (whatever that is), is in no way prepared to disseminate their culture, theology, etc to the world.

I don't have a problem with the Dogon possibly being connected with Kemet in some form or fashion....Especially since, as you previously stated, that Kemet was basically a confederation of African Tribes and societies.

But again, an assertion was made here by someone else, that the DOGON were responsible for all things KEMETIC, in terms of theology (and culture by default). That is a far cry from the Dogon merely being a branch of Kemet.

PEACE

ohok cool...makes sense...

OmowaleX

11-13-2006, 03:25 PM

Music Producer

11-13-2006, 03:55 PM

In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. The Dogon are believed to be of Egyptian decent and their astronomical lore goes back thousands of years to 3200 BC. According to their traditions, the star Sirius has a companion star which is invisible to the human eye. This companion star has a 50 year elliptical orbit around the visible Sirius and is extremely heavy. It also rotates on its axis.

Samurai36:
The second sentence in the above paragraph refutes all claims that the DOGON are the ancestors of Kemet, rather than vice versa.

The Dogon have an Oral History of being in Egypt that predates the flood of the earth. They say they were warned by the Nummo to get away from the river because they were about to flood the earth, which is why the Dogon to this day build their villages in high mountainous regions.

Music Producer

11-13-2006, 04:05 PM

Music Producer

11-13-2006, 04:08 PM

Factoid:

Did you no the oldest Egyptian Ennead was humanoids with the heads of Snakes and Frogs, which are described by the Dogon unto this day as being that of the first Nummo?

I wonder how Kemet swayed from the Truth?

http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=452083&postcount=1

nibs

11-14-2006, 12:31 AM

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 11:01 AM

(Music Producer) - Did you no the oldest Egyptian Ennead was humanoids with the heads of Snakes and Frogs, which are described by the Dogon unto this day as being that of the first Nummo?

I wonder how Kemet swayed from the Truth?

http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=452083&postcount=1

until you understand the nature of a cosmogony, you will never understand why there are multiple truths; multiple paths to truth.

the fact that you don't have a problem with acknowledging that a creation story that is popular during the middle kingdom is not the oldest creation story...

what's the history of the dogon before they were in kemet?

why aren't the dogon as a people homogenous in their beliefs?

the truth about the dogon and their practices is only a problem for you, as you debase their beliefs in trying to fit it to your mystery god.

worshipping the nummo, prayers to lebe, binuism, divination...etc. this is only a problem for your doctrine.

it's amusing that you claim to have the purest understanding of the dogon, yet disagree with 85% of what they do.

at what point in the bible does the semitic deity hand off creation to his angels; as the nummo finish amma's spoiled creation?

until you understand the nature of a cosmogony, you will never understand why there are multiple truths; multiple paths to truth.

Cosmogony is the study of the origin of existence through science.
Cosmology is the study of the origin of existence through GOD.

The Dogon creation story is both. You and I both know that when the Dogon are describing the Nummo that they are actually describing biological, chemical, particle and elements created by GOD / Amma to assimilate our existence. It is your desire to skew this perception which is why you can not admit that the only entity the Dogon refer to as GOD or Neter is Amma, the Supreme Being. Rather or not the Dogon understand what they are describing is unknown. Some of them speak as if they do and some of them speak as if they do not.

If you pickup a hand full of dirt would you start worshiping it, praying to it and calling it your ancestor? As you perceive Dogon Cosmology you would be right to do so because that hand full of dirt is indeed the Nummo, that hand full of dirt comes from the placenta of the Ogo which came from the placenta of Amma.

So why don’t you pick up a hand full of dirt and worship it?

The Nummo are the elements GOD used to create our existence. Why do you promote the worship of elements more then you promote the worship of the Supreme Being?

I understand cosmogony and cosmology all to well, which is why I worship, meditate and praise only the Supreme Being, I don’t run around worshiping chemicals and elements created by the Supreme Being. I worship the Supreme Being.

The Dogon worshiping the Nummo is their error or method of remembrance not mines, I know the difference between GOD and an element.

what's the history of the dogon before they were in kemet?

The Dogon have an Oral History of being in Kemet that predates the flood. To go back further then that would be a guess but scientific evidence reveals we all originated from the San Bushman of Africa. The San Bushman also has an Oral Theology that fits with a portion of the Dogon Theology.

why aren't the dogon as a people homogenous in their beliefs?

Actually they are although over time some variations have sprung up which are also recorded in the Pale Fox. These variations come to the same conclusion as to how something became. Also you might be confusing the fact that each tribe is divided into a specific cult to represent and be responsible for maintaining a specific event in pre-history which makes it appear as if they are independent and worship different things or ancestors / elements but in reality they are representing that particular aspect of pre-history and the properties of that element.

the truth about the dogon and their practices is only a problem for you, as you debase their beliefs in trying to fit it to your mystery god.

The Dogon Theology is expectable me be. I absolutely believe in One GOD, just as the Dogon do. The practice of worshiping elements is something the Dogon will have to figure out without loosing remembrance and properties of those elements.

You are the one who can not confess that the only entity the Dogon refer to as GOD is Amma.

worshipping the nummo, prayers to lebe, binuism, divination...etc. this is only a problem for your doctrine.

Yep, our last greatest Pharaoh outlawed this type of behavior. Picking up a piece of dirt and worshiping it as your ancestor or something that can protect you in the spirit world just don’t seem intelligent. The creator of that dirt, the Power that made that dirt to exist is what one should praise and worship but this doesn’t mean we should become unconscious of the dirt.

it's amusing that you claim to have the purest understanding of the dogon, yet disagree with 85% of what they do.

No, I don’t disagree with what they do, I understand what they do and why. The Dogon Theology is a science that has only know just began be understood. It is technology of the elements yet described with human attributes because when the theology was induced man could only relate to what he could see, feel, hear and smell, thus the elements / ancestors were given these properties so that man could relate and have a method of remembering of the ancient knowledge.

Look at it like this, how do you explain the intrinsic workings of an atom to ancient man?

at what point in the bible does the semitic deity hand off creation to his angels; as the nummo finish amma's spoiled creation?

You spoke like this once before and I had no response. Now that I have completed more then half of the Pale Fox I would like to tell you that your degradation of Amma as not completing Creation is a lie against GOD and you are intentionally misrepresenting the Dogon creation story in order to degrade Amma / GOD, which I have noticed to be the nature of most polytheist.

nibs

11-14-2006, 04:27 PM

(Music Producer) - You and I both know that when the Dogon are describing the Nummo that they are actually describing biological, chemical, particle and elements created by GOD / Amma to assimilate our existence. It is your desire to skew this perception which is why you can not admit that the only entity the Dogon refer to as GOD or Neter is Amma, the Supreme Being.

music man, the dogon worship the nummo. you deny the spiritual aspects of the nummo, and the truth is that the [original] nummo, yurogo, yasigi and amma are all spiritual beings.
the nummo are referred to as nummo spirits...etc.

(Music Producer) - If you pickup a hand full of dirt would you start worshiping it, praying to it and calling it your ancestor? As you perceive Dogon Cosmology you would be right to do so because that hand full of dirt is indeed the Nummo, that hand full of dirt comes from the placenta of the Ogo which came from the placenta of Amma. So why don’t you pick up a hand full of dirt and worship it?

:) how cute...
your argument works against you...
the dogon do not worship handfuls of dirt. the dogon worship the nummo which are spiritual beings.
if your interpretation was correct and truly reflected the dogon, they would worship dirt. however, they do not. thus, your interpretation is inconsistent with the dogon understanding.
period.

(Music Producer) - The Nummo are the elements GOD used to create our existence. Why do you promote the worship of elements more then you promote the worship of the Supreme Being?

again, your words are not spiritual. the nummo are spiritual beings. while spirits can inhabit inanimate objects, spirits and inanimate objects are separate. the nummo are not elements. elements are material, the nummo are spiritual.

(Music Producer) - I understand cosmogony and cosmology all to well, which is why I worship, meditate and praise only the Supreme Being, I don’t run around worshiping chemicals and elements created by the Supreme Being. I worship the Supreme Being.

all african thought portrays:
the supreme being | divine spirits, ancestral spirits | men

worship and communication with this spiritual realm that exists between the creator and man is not somehow elevating spirits to god status...etc. the spiritual realm is regarded as an intermediary between man and god, and also having powers to do things on it's own. thus, spirits can intervene directly.

(Music Producer) - The Dogon worshiping the Nummo is their error or method of remembrance not mines, I know the difference between GOD and an element.

i'm amused by the arrogance in you telling the dogon priests who ultimately are the source of your information; interpretted by spiritually blind european observers, that they do not understand their doctrine.
i try to appreciate the truth of the dogon doctrine for what it is.
you take distortions by european observers to contort dogon thought into something it isn't.

(Music Producer) - Yep, our last greatest Pharaoh outlawed this type of behavior. Picking up a piece of dirt and worshiping it as your ancestor or something that can protect you in the spirit world just don’t seem intelligent.

the dangers of viewing religion through the eyes of the spiritually blind. they have us worshipping dirt :)

akhenaten recognized ra, atem, heru...in addition to the aten. akhenaten was basically a polytheist, by your standards.

(Music Producer) - No, I don’t disagree with what they do, I understand what they do and why.

:) there is no evidence that you understand why they do what they do.

(Music Producer) - Look at it like this, how do you explain the intrinsic workings of an atom to ancient man?

you again disrespect the dogon by claiming they do not understand their doctrine, by claiming ancient man was somehow primitive..etc.

at what point in the bible does the semitic deity hand off creation to his angels; as the nummo finish amma's spoiled creation?

(Music Producer) - You spoke like this once before and I had no response. Now that I have completed more then half of the Pale Fox I would like to tell you that your degradation of Amma as not completing Creation is a lie against GOD and you are intentionally misrepresenting the Dogon creation story in order to degrade Amma / GOD, which I have noticed to be the nature of most polytheist.

"a lie against god" :)

conversation with ogotemmeli, pg 25:

[earth]was forever defiled in the sight of god, but was nevertheless capable of acquiring some degree of the purity required for the activities of life.
<snip>
the [nummo] pair could then proceed to the work of regeneration, which they intended to carry out in agreement with god and in god's stead.
'nummo in amma's place', said ogotemmeli, 'was working the work of amma'

the pale fox, pg 248

when he [amma] observed the disorder caused by ogo in the creation, amma at first wanted to take his work back by entrusting it to the couple that had developed in the other placenta. he also wanted to mark the beginning of this work by an atonement and a test.
<snip>
the test, it seems, consisted of putting the elements of this creation into their hands, and to make another one out of it with the salvaged matter. in this way, amma might judge the power of those he was choosing to rule over it. however, amma did not want to reincorporate the stolen placenta into a new universe, since it had become impure because of the incest ogo had committed; nor did he want to abandon it to create another placenta. so he gave up on the idea of a second creation, and the events continued in a universe which remained unique.
the atonement for the disorder was the bloody sacrifice of the very one who had to restore order...

so again, we see that ogo has defiled the universe, amma considers abandoning it completely and starting over, and ultimately it is the nommo who are placed in charge, and salvage the universe. that the work of the nommo is a sort of test for them.

i maintain that you need to read "conversations with ogotemmeli" & "the pale fox" together. you will notice that they cover overlapping yet slightly different material.
the nummo are spiritual beings, more than simple elements. this is why they are worshipped. just as ancestral spirits are prayed to, offerings made to, cared for...etc.

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 06:04 PM

You are perceiving it all wrong because you are attached to the same concept as primitive man was when this Cosmology was introduced to us. But I will ask you the question:

the atonement for the disorder was the bloody sacrifice of the very one who had to restore order...

Who performed that sacrifice and created the Planets from the blood of the sacrificed Nummo?

Who took the flesh of the sacrificed Nummo and mixed it with clay to create humans?

Who took the internal organs of the sacrificed Nummo and stored them for its resurrection?

Who delivered the deadly blow to the back of the neck of the Nummo and started the flow of sacrificial blood?

Who performed the surgery on the Nummo that lead to the creation of the stars, planets and moons?

All of these questions are answered with Amma / GOD, it was Amma that did the Work, the Nummo are what Amma performed the Work through / particles, chemicals, elements, biological agents that Amma created to manifest our existence. Thus you are reading the Theology WRONG.

Stop trying to degrade what I see because the European reveals nothing of what I am saying. When the Dogon start referring to the Po as being the smallest thing, they are telling you they are referring to microscopic existences that GOD created and added too or took away from to manifest our physical existence.

You are doing all that you can to contort the doctrine to avoid the fact that none of it would exist without Amma / GOD / The Supreme Being and that is the main problem with all polytheistic concepts. They try to avoid or dismiss the Supreme Being failing to recognize that IT is the Source of everything they believe in.

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 06:06 PM

[earth]was forever defiled in the sight of god, but was nevertheless capable of acquiring some degree of the purity required for the activities of life.

Who performed that purification?

nibs

11-14-2006, 08:43 PM

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 09:50 PM

(Music Producer) - Who took the flesh of the sacrificed Nummo and mixed it with clay to create humans?

what happened next?

in conversation with ogotemmeli, pg 25 & 26, we see the nummo pair purifying the earth, and then spiritually transforming the humans amma created inside the anthill.

this is clearly after amma's sacrifice and ressurection of the nummo. both books must be studied in tandem.
it isn't me saying the nommo completed the creation, those words are of ogotemmeli:
'nummo in amma's place', said ogotemmeli, 'was working the work of amma'

both books must be read together. "conversation with ogotemmeli" describes events that take place after amma's initial creative efforts, and that expand on the role the nommo play in finishing creation. both books mention this role.

(Music Producer) - You are doing all that you can to contort the doctrine to avoid the fact that none of it would exist without Amma / GOD / The Supreme Being and that is the main problem with all polytheistic concepts.

allow me take a moment to affirm your statement that none of it would exist without Amma

with that said, if you continue studying the information before you; you willunderstand the role the nommo play; and why they are thusly worshipped by the dogon.

you have never provided an explanation for why the nommo are worshipped; and you directly contradict ogotemmeli's words when he states nummo are taking over for amma. how are you challenging the source of the information?
You are basing your entire argument on the idea that every Dogon understands the Cosmology. You would be saying that every Dogon is a scientist, physics’ or chemist, this is not the case which is why Ogotemmeli gives you a simple overview of the Creation story which is the same basic Creation story in the first chapter of the Pale Fox then as more and more higher up priests are interviewed the story begins to take a more detailed shape.

It is written just like the Old Testament in which the first story deals with Adam being cast out of Eden which is the same story that loops over and over and over while expanding information until it reaches an entire people being cast out of Egypt.

I have only gotten to the part of Amma cleansing the area from the actions of the Ogo but so far all of the Nummo are inert until an Action by Amma takes place, with the exception of the circumcision of the Ogo but even that event results in the Creation.

with that said, if you continue studying the information before you; you willunderstand the role the nommo play; and why they are thusly worshipped by the dogon.

So does this give you the right to worship something that you specifically know are elements, chemicals and biological agents created by GOD?

Don’t use the Dogon and their error or method of remembrance to justify your own.

That’s like saying “the Egyptian called everything god”, “so I am going to do it also”.

It is faulty logic to believe the Dogon can’t have a corrupt view of things within their circle.

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 10:04 PM

you have never provided an explanation for why the nommo are worshipped; and you directly contradict ogotemmeli's words when he states nummo are taking over for amma. how are you challenging the source of the information?

And you have never provided an explanation as to why the Dogon only refers to Amma as GOD.

I did provide you with an explanation in post 121.

No, I don’t disagree with what they do, I understand what they do and why. The Dogon Theology is a science that has only know just began be understood. It is technology of the elements yet described with human attributes because when the theology was induced man could only relate to what he could see, feel, hear and smell, thus the elements / ancestors were given these properties so that man could relate and have a method of remembering of the ancient knowledge.

Look at it like this, how do you explain the intrinsic workings of an atom to ancient man?

Some of the Dogon do not understand the scientific concepts required to remove the humanized qualities and attributes induced during the inception of the Cosmology. How else can a Being of higher intellect explain how Amma slit the atom that caused an explosion so great that it sent the Ogo / Particles to the reaches of the Universe?

Or the Dogon do understand exactly what they are doing and do it so the concepts will remain intact.

I personally understand what the Nummo are at this point. I will not use others to place blame on my method of worship. I understand that none of it would be if Amma / GOD did no work.

Music Producer

11-14-2006, 10:30 PM

Let me share a little story that I made up and shared with the board around the first time I came here.

The Old Man

There was this village of people that wanted to expand their building area but first they had to clear a forest. Everything they tried to use to clear the forest didn’t work. It was like the trees of this forest were magically hard. The elders of the village knew of this old man who understood science, physics and technology. They went to the old man and asked him to help them clear the forest. The old man built robots and machines that cut down the forest in no time.

As the forest was cleared and ready for building and expansion of the village the people of the village ran to the machines and robots and started trying to shake their hands, praise them for the work and honoring them.

The Old Man stood there astonished.

What those villagers did to the Old Man, you are doing to GOD.

nibs

11-14-2006, 11:07 PM

(music producer) - So does this give you the right to worship something that you specifically know are elements, chemicals and biological agents created by GOD?

the nummo are not elements. they are spirits. spiritual beings.

(music producer) - And you have never provided an explanation as to why the Dogon only refers to Amma as GOD.

noone has denied that amma is the creator.

god is not a "dogon" word. it's english.
similarly, neter should not be translated as god.
regardless, not all of the neteru are the creator, so you can appreciate the distinction here. noone is confusing the created with the creator.

an almost universal aspect to african religious thought is that the creator can only be communicated with via spiritual intermediaries. hence the nummo of the dogon, the neteru in kemet, orisha in yoruba, abosom of the akan...etc

which is why your polytheistic arguments never had traction. the dogon worship the nommo, understand that the nommo completed creation; and do not confuse the nommo with amma. amma gave the nommo power, and the nommo can be communicated with...etc. ditto ancestral spirits. spirits have power, and thus they are nurtured and look after their descendents.

thus, monotheistic with practices that contradict your bible.
divination also contradicts your bible.
communicating with ancestral spirits also contradicts your bible.

it's ridiculous for you to try to undermine ogotemmeli's knowledge. dogon spiritual beliefs are consistent with african thought as a whole. nothing like the old testament.

Music Producer

11-15-2006, 01:38 AM

the nummo are not elements. they are spirits. spiritual beings.

The Nummo are the tools of GOD. That is about as simple as I can put it. The Nummo are the tools of GOD. When you worship a Nummo you are being no different from the people in my little story that run to the robots and machines in praise. The Nummo are the tools of GOD.

Isa:10:15: Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

In the Creation Story thus far from what I have read in the Pale Fox the Nummo are being described as Elements. Didn’t you read the chapter about how GOD created them? How GOD first started out with 266 elements, kept 2 for Himself and then divided the rest to create the Nummo?

On page 139 fig 23, B, you tell me what are you looking at that is called Amma’s tonu?

How is Amma’s tonu being described?

noone has denied that amma is the creator.

Every time you talk about how the Nummo took over creation you are denying GOD as the Creator.

Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

regardless, not all of the neteru are the creator, so you can appreciate the distinction here. noone is confusing the created with the creator.

What about Ptah, Ra, Amun, Atum, Nu, etc…..

That alone confuses the Creator with the created it confuses the distinction of Supreme Being.

an almost universal aspect to african religious thought is that the creator can only be communicated with via spiritual intermediaries. hence the nummo of the dogon, the neteru in kemet, orisha in yoruba, abosom of the akan...etc

And it is through this error and fault that we began worshiping things less then GOD and overtime began replacing GOD with those things lesser then god, demigods, Sons of GOD.

Josh:24:2: And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

the dogon worship the nommo

But the Dogon don’t call the Nummo gods. This error aroused with Kemet corruption of the original concept of Nummo.

understand that the nommo completed creation

There you go, once again denying GOD. You cannot take GOD out of the equation at any point in time of Creation. You cannot create a situation of creation where Amma / GOD does no work. Without GOD the system of creation becomes inert.

and do not confuse the nommo with amma.

That is exactly what you are doing.

amma gave the nommo power

Amma gives the Nummo power.

and the nommo can be communicated with...etc. ditto ancestral spirits. spirits have power, and thus they are nurtured and look after their descendents.

The Nummo in the Creation Story of the Dogon are not Spirits. They are at that time a combination of the 264 elements used to create our existence.

thus, monotheistic with practices that contradict your bible.
divination also contradicts your bible.
communicating with ancestral spirits also contradicts your bible.

Yes it does because it was outlawed by a great ancestor that was Pharaoh of Egypt and saw how badly the concept of ancestor worship had become so corrupt and misunderstood that the Supreme Being was no longer recognizable in the system and even being replaced by lesser gods, demigods, Sons of GOD.

it's ridiculous for you to try to undermine ogotemmeli's knowledge. dogon spiritual beliefs are consistent with african thought as a whole. nothing like the old testament.

The Old Testament revamps the One GOD concept. The Dogon theology shows we all originally had that same concept.
Otherwise what other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?
:kiss:

nibs

11-15-2006, 10:53 AM

(Music Producer) - In the Creation Story thus far from what I have read in the Pale Fox the Nummo are being described as Elements. Didn’t you read the chapter about how GOD created them? How GOD first started out with 266 elements, kept 2 for Himself and then divided the rest to create the Nummo?

the nommo are spiritual beings. if you look at the kemetic "virgin of the world" or the "manifestations of ra" you can see the creator creating neteru and souls (spiritual) from various materials.

(Music Producer) - Every time you talk about how the Nummo took over creation you are denying GOD as the Creator.

i quoted ogotemmeli, and cited passages from "the pale fox" as well. i trust the passages that i read and not your interpretation.

(Music Producer) - What about Ptah, Ra, Amun, Atum, Nu, etc…..

names and concepts of the creator. attributes of the creator.
ptah -> fashioner / architect
amun -> hidden
atum -> closer / ender (atum will end the creation)
ra -> to work / to act (as in creation) / king

nu - a mass of water; thus the primeval waters from which the gods arose.

(Music Producer) - That alone confuses the Creator with the created it confuses the distinction of Supreme Being.

there is one creator. the names are attributes of that creator. confusion in the minds of those that don't understand does not undermine the brilliance of the thought.

saying "god" says nothing. as "god" really means nothing. it's like calling people "humans" instead of using their names. it conveys no knowledge.

ditto "supreme being". conveys no information.

now "creator", yes, that says something. just like "ptah", "amun" or "ra" says alot. those names convey meaning.

amusingly, "amma" means something. "amma" is not the word for "god" in english.

(Music Producer) - And it is through this error and fault that we began worshiping things less then GOD

i am not concerned with errors, i am concerned with the original purity of thought.

(Music Producer) - Josh:24:2: And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

the primary concerns was always people embracing foreign gods, gods whose names meant nothing in the native tongue. gods with no history in the native lands. people whose ideas corrupted the understanding of god, and the native gods of kemet.
it's the difference between the names of gods that have meaning, power and history; and foreign gods that have no power, no history and mean nothing.

i'm not interpretting your bible verse, as that document means nothing to me. i'm commenting on that idea (worshipping other gods) as it applies to kemet. to be clear, you can interpret the bible however you wish, i'm not challenging your interpretations there.

in kemet, the problem was people falling away from their original understanding of the gods and following foreign gods of foreign people. especially when the hyksos and other asiatics began introducing these foreign, semitic gods; like baal, yah, and elohim into kemet.
"aah" was a lunar deity, that some have tried to associate with yah; so yah potentially is a degradation of a legitimate deity.

(Music Producer) - But the Dogon don’t call the Nummo gods. This error aroused with Kemet corruption of the original concept of Nummo.

"god" is not a kemetic word. you don't know the equivalent word to neter in dogon, so your argument is moot.

(Music Producer) - There you go, once again denying GOD.

please direct these sorts of remarks to ogotemmeli. the source of your books on the dogon. you are arguing with what you read.

(Music Producer) - The Nummo in the Creation Story of the Dogon are not Spirits. They are at that time a combination of the 264 elements used to create our existence.

ogotemmeli refers to them as "nommo spirits". spirits are not "nothing", spirits are made of something.

you are again challenging ogotemmeli.

(Music Producer) - Yes it does because it was outlawed by a great ancestor that was Pharaoh of Egypt

akhenaten tried to reform the priesthood and rid the lands of fake, foreign gods, semitic gods, that were beginning to take hold. he was opposed because his actions undermined the native gods of kemet. thus he went to far.
akhenaten also acknowledges all solar deities. ra, heru, atem, shu in addition to aten. lord ai describes his god as "like ra" at one point in a hymn. :) very flattering for "the only god" to be compared as like another :)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut10.htm
3. Thou (Aten) art as Ra. Thou bringest [them] according to their number, thou subduest them for thy beloved son. Thou thyself art afar off, but thy beams are upon the earth; thou art in their faces, they [admire] thy goings.

anyway, you distort both akhenaten and the dogon doctrine. your doctrine is semitic and not african. there is little doubt that akhenaten would regard your doctrine as an abomination, as you pay homage to foreign gods.

(Music Producer) - saw how badly the concept of ancestor worship had become so corrupt and misunderstood

"ancestor veneration" or "ancestor communication" is the better term. ancestors are third on the rung, beneath the lesser gods and the creator.
ancestors are venerated but not worshipped.

(Music Producer) - Otherwise what other entity do the Dogon refer to as GOD besides Amma?

god is not a dogon word. the nommo are worshipped, and the nommo would count as "gods" by european standards.

Afrodaze1

11-15-2006, 11:17 AM

You two sound like christians posing as Afrakan centered spiritualists. Your arguments are mostly theological in content and seem to have left out the scientific aspects of the spiritual matters you are debating.

nibs

11-15-2006, 11:39 AM

lead the discussion in a better direction; expand on what you feel is missing here, afrodaze1.

welcome to the forum.

Afrodaze1

11-15-2006, 12:12 PM

Thank you for the welcome, my brother.

First, a little about myself. I am someone who has studied the Metu Neter, and Kemetik Science over all, for the last ten years. I am also an ordained minister in the Christian modality of this Science. I actually came to the study of the Kemetik/Afrakan Sciences by way of studying Christianity. The information I found in CHRISTIAN SEMINARY TEXTS was what led me to begin my journey as an Afrakan. Ironic, isn't it. When we argue about the origins of the knowledge our Ancestors left for us, and we insult and backbite on one another, we are simply falling in line with what those who kept us blinded in bondage for so long desire for us...SLAVERY.
What R.U.N.A. and other Afrakan spiritual scholars (most of them anyway) make clear is that what our Ancestors bequeathed to us is first and foremost a SCIENCE rooted in Spirit. The terms, names and images, can be seen as similar to the symbols used in sciences like KEMistry, for instance. When personification came about, it was simply just a tool to pass on a deeper type of knowledge through the unification of the left and right hemispheres of the brain. This made for ease of understanding, retention and application. BUT, without the KEYS to open the symbols, names, etc. up, many of us simply degraded into "worship" (indeed, even the word "worship" simply means "to recognize as worthy" of respect, attention, and so forth) without overstanding/understanding. But, we can recover, and are in the process of recovering the systematic methods used to obtain and use the Keys of Afrakan/Kemetik Science. This is due to people like Ra Un Nefer Amen, Cheik Anta Diop, and many others still with us and some who have Transitioned to the Realm of the Ancestors.:darts:

nibs

11-15-2006, 12:33 PM

(Afrodaze1) - what our Ancestors bequeathed to us is first and foremost a SCIENCE rooted in Spirit. The terms, names and images, can be seen as similar to the symbols used in sciences like KEMistry, for instance. When personification came about, it was simply just a tool to pass on a deeper type of knowledge through the unification of the left and right hemispheres of the brain. This made for ease of understanding, retention and application. BUT, without the KEYS to open the symbols, names, etc. up, many of us simply degraded into "worship" (indeed, even the word "worship" simply means "to recognize as worthy" of respect, attention, and so forth) without overstanding/understanding.

another reflection of this is that the names of god themselves are words with meaning.
similarly, many of the medu neter glyphs themselves contain a deeper meaning in what they represent in everyday life, part of that meaning now lost with time and culture.
this symbolic meaning speaks to the subconscious mind, speaks to the soul, which has been here before and seen it all before.
thus, it is important to preserve customs and not change them; as part of the potency is in activating knowledge from previous lifetimes.
cyclical rituals, order, dress...putting people and actions in sync, getting their thoughts in sync, allows the collective mind of that group to manifest as a whole.

the burial rites, mummification, pyramid/coffin texts; much of this is to nurture and benefit the spirit after death, as the spirit continues to remain for a period, after the body has perished. knowing the nature of the spirit, rituals were developed to nurture it as well.

without question this is actually a spiritual science, and the science deals with cultivating and nurturing the spirit during life and after death.

Music Producer

11-15-2006, 12:39 PM

the nommo are spiritual beings. if you look at the kemetic "virgin of the world" or the "manifestations of ra" you can see the creator creating neteru and souls (spiritual) from various materials.

Now I see your problem. Please do not try to use Kemet theology to explain Dogon theology because Kemet is an absolute and clear corruption of what the Dogon present. Just as the Dogon only refer to Amma as GOD but Kemet started referring to everything as GOD, which is a clear and outright corruption.

You are taking a Polytheistic theology (Kemet after about the fourth Dynasty) and trying to explain a Monotheistic theology (Dogon). You will have nothing but confusion, it is like trying to take the New Testament and use them to explain the Old Testament. This is confusion.

i quoted ogotemmeli, and cited passages from "the pale fox" as well. i trust the passages that i read and not your interpretation.

You are reading the book the same way Servants of Jesus read and use the Old Testament. You are not looking at the detailed and complete song line. Ogotemmeli tells you that he was only prepared to deal with the basic story and not the intrinsic details as to the how.

names and concepts of the creator. attributes of the creator.
ptah -> fashioner / architect
amun -> hidden
atum -> closer / ender (atum will end the creation)
ra -> to work / to act (as in creation) / king

nu - a mass of water; thus the primeval waters from which the gods arose.

But all of them can be found in a Kemet Creation story as being the creator. The problem is we only got One Earth, thus someone is lying, and something has gotten corrupted.

there is one creator. the names are attributes of that creator. confusion in the minds of those that don't understand does not undermine the brilliance of the thought.

Lucifer, the Ogo, the Jackal, the Nefilim, Satan and the Sons of GOD are all attributes of the One Creator.

Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now fall on you knees and take your own chances of worshiping an Evil aspect of GOD because as humans we have no concept of telling them apart from the Good aspects.

Gambling with Spirituality is not a brilliance of thought; it is a flesh of stupidity. Amma had to create opposing forces to Himself for the order of things to become. You are amplifying those opposing forces to undo Amma, you are amplifying the Ogo, Osiris, Jesus which is why the earth, nature, the order is unbalanced, which causes war death and destruction, de-evolution, the uncreated, extinction of existence because humans try to replace the Supreme Being with something that is incomplete.

i am not concerned with errors, i am concerned with the original purity of thought.

And that would be One GOD, period.

the primary concerns was always people embracing foreign gods, gods whose names meant nothing in the native tongue. gods with no history in the native lands. people whose ideas corrupted the understanding of god, and the native gods of kemet.

Which is exactly what happened in Kemet. After about the 4th Dynasty Kemet started moving into integrating these foreign gods into Kemet theology. They gave them a history from barrowing history from human ancestors who were responsible for the unions between upper and lower Egypt.

How does the History of Kemet go from the story of Khnemu during the Third Dynasty to the story of Ra creating the world and man in the 12th Dynasty and up?

The earlier the Dynasty, the more Monotheistic the stories of Egypt are. It is not until Egypt started growing and becoming a great metropolitan in the later Dynasties that we began seeing this move from Monotheism to Polytheism, which is exactly, exactly what is described in the History played out in the Old Testament.

"god" is not a kemetic word. you don't know the equivalent word to neter in dogon, so your argument is moot.

No, this is your scapegoat when ever you are faced with a technicality.

So I will ask you this……..

What other entity do the Dogon refer to as the Supreme Being besides Amma?

Afrodaze1

11-15-2006, 12:50 PM

nibs

11-15-2006, 12:50 PM

(music producer) - Now I see your problem
you can have the last word in that debate, music man. allow the discussion to move in a different direction. i stand by all of my previous statements.

Music Producer

11-15-2006, 01:55 PM

Brother, what you call "polytheism" is simply the recognition our Ancestors had that the One "God" can be recogized (to certain extents) by the various attributes which It manifests. What you term as "borrowing" from other cultures/groups, was really a way of refining and expanding, showing the connections that existed between other peoples' recognition of "God" and our Ancestors' own.

:pool:

Welcome; although you feel familiar to me.

This is called manipulation of your ancestral religion and knowledge so that your nation would be more appealing and attractive to other nations. It is called becoming a heathen a whore to gods your forefathers did not know.

Ezek:23:30: I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

It describes Kemets transition from early Dynasty Monotheism to late Dynasty Polytheism which corrupted the ancient knowledge so badly that everything became god or gods, causing us to forget GOD.

Music Producer

11-15-2006, 01:56 PM

(music producer) - Now I see your problem
you can have the last word in that debate, music man. allow the discussion to move in a different direction. i stand by all of my previous statements.
What other entity do the Dogon refer to as the Supreme Being besides Amma?

Afrodaze1

11-15-2006, 02:01 PM

This is called manipulation of your ancestral religion and knowledge so that your nation would be more appealing and attractive to other nations. It is called becoming a heathen a whore to gods your forefathers did not know.

Ezek:23:30: I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

It describes Kemets transition from early Dynasty Monotheism to late Dynasty Polytheism which corrupted the ancient knowledge so badly that everything became god or gods, causing us to forget GOD.

Brotha, it's funny that you keep quoting Biblical Scriptures. Check this one out: "And unto you who fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings..." Malachi 4:2

If you would be so kind, could you expound on this for me?:spin:

Music Producer

11-15-2006, 04:57 PM

Brotha, it's funny that you keep quoting Biblical Scriptures. Check this one out: "And unto you who fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings..." Malachi 4:2

If you would be so kind, could you expound on this for me?:spin:

Mal:4:2: But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

It once again shows that the Old Testament is of Egyptian origin from the Monotheistic sect of Kemet that maintained the old ways and did not worship peaces or aspects of GOD to the level of contingency with GOD.

To have a more clear understanding of this in-depth, knowledge of ancestral knowledge is required. As Kemet became a corruption one has to be aware that Horus Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings is a corrupted version of the Eye of the Nummo that is described and depicted as an Eye with wings.

Now that we see “Sun” is actually a reference to “Eye” we can began to make the connection to this…….

Zech:4:10: For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

then we have the commonality of how Satan describes his doings…..

Job:2:2: And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Now we began see the nature of Sons of GOD.

Passing the temptations of the Sons of GOD is only accomplished by one that fears the name of GOD, they will be protected in righteousness and be healed. Those that do not fear the name of GOD, well their latter end is also recorded.

OmowaleX

05-24-2007, 08:42 PM

Thank you for the welcome, my brother.

First, a little about myself. I am someone who has studied the Metu Neter, and Kemetik Science over all, for the last ten years. I am also an ordained minister in the Christian modality of this Science. I actually came to the study of the Kemetik/Afrakan Sciences by way of studying Christianity. The information I found in CHRISTIAN SEMINARY TEXTS was what led me to begin my journey as an Afrakan. Ironic, isn't it. When we argue about the origins of the knowledge our Ancestors left for us, and we insult and backbite on one another, we are simply falling in line with what those who kept us blinded in bondage for so long desire for us...SLAVERY.
What R.U.N.A. and other Afrakan spiritual scholars (most of them anyway) make clear is that what our Ancestors bequeathed to us is first and foremost a SCIENCE rooted in Spirit.

This explains a number of things specifically in regards to referencing a "theology" as a "science".

"The information I found in CHRISTIAN SEMINARY TEXTS was what led me to begin my journey as an Afrakan."

Interesting. SELF-KNOWLEDGE is the BASIS of ALL KNOWLEDGE.

KNOWLEDGE based on "Christian Seminary TEXTS" can only lead to confusion.

Perhaps this explains one's tendency to enter threads and do exactly what one speaks agains, "argue"...."backbiting".

"a SCIENCE rooted in Spirit" ??!

Yet, some refer this as "theology".

Since when is an area of STUDY considered "SCIENCE" and how is this "rooted in "Spirit"??!

OmowaleX

05-24-2007, 08:44 PM

Mal:4:2: But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

It once again shows that the Old Testament is of Egyptian origin from the Monotheistic sect of Kemet that maintained the old ways and did not worship peaces or aspects of GOD to the level of contingency with GOD.

To have a more clear understanding of this in-depth, knowledge of ancestral knowledge is required. As Kemet became a corruption one has to be aware that Horus Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings is a corrupted version of the Eye of the Nummo that is described and depicted as an Eye with wings.

Now that we see “Sun” is actually a reference to “Eye” we can began to make the connection to this…….

Zech:4:10: For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

then we have the commonality of how Satan describes his doings…..

Job:2:2: And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Now we began see the nature of Sons of GOD.

Passing the temptations of the Sons of GOD is only accomplished by one that fears the name of GOD, they will be protected in righteousness and be healed. Those that do not fear the name of GOD, well their latter end is also recorded.

"Now we began see the nature of Sons of GOD."

I SEE.

But do they SEE their own NTR?

Afrodaze1

06-14-2007, 12:55 AM

This explains a number of things specifically in regards to referencing a "theology" as a "science".

"The information I found in CHRISTIAN SEMINARY TEXTS was what led me to begin my journey as an Afrakan."

Interesting. SELF-KNOWLEDGE is the BASIS of ALL KNOWLEDGE.

KNOWLEDGE based on "Christian Seminary TEXTS" can only lead to confusion.

Perhaps this explains one's tendency to enter threads and do exactly what one speaks agains, "argue"...."backbiting".

"a SCIENCE rooted in Spirit" ??!

Yet, some refer this as "theology".

Since when is an area of STUDY considered "SCIENCE" and how is this "rooted in "Spirit"??!

Since you have me on "ignore" and are not "speaking" to/with me, I will address this as I was addressed, as "one". Where does one get one's self-knowledge from and how does one confirm one's self-knowledge from self to know that self is giving true and accurate knowledge? Also, I was referring to arguing based on personal opinions and not facts, and backbiting as in calling each other names, directly or through implication. I have not called anyone names or degraded personal characteristics (one of the definitions of "backbiting") nor have I done so in secret (backbiting:n. 1. Secret slander; detraction.
Backbiting, and bearing of false witness; 1. To speak unkindly about someone who is absent.).

"argue":1303, from O.Fr. arguer, from L. argutare "to prattle" freq. of arguere "to make clear, demonstrate," from PIE *argu-yo-, from base *arg- "to shine, be white, bright, clear" (see argent). Colloquial argufy is first attested 1751. Argument "proof, evidence" is from 1382; sense of "debate" is from 1494. Argumentative "fond of arguing" is from 1667.

My mention of "christian seminary texts" was simply to illustrate that I found that, "christian scholars" knew/know where what they teach and profess really comes from, and that my own discovery of this in their texts led me on a journey of SELF-KNOWLEDGE outside of their texts. As a former christian minister, I was, at first, angry. Because up until that point, just about everything that was traditional Afrakan was made to be "demon worship" and "evil", or "backward" and "superstitious". After years of study, trance, meditation,etc. I learned that what our Ancestors knew, practiced and taught is a spiritual science(see definitions below). Since we are using english words, felt it necessary to post the definitions of the words being spoken of by one, so that any personal "argument" is avoided. Since the topics we are discussing in this thread are actually of an Initiatic nature, an over/understanding will be hard to attain by any who are not initiated into the "Spiritual Sciences" of our Ancestors. The ancient writings were meant to INspire those Initiates who read them. Even in the bible it states: "...it is given unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he does have. Because of this, I speak to them in parables: because they seeing, do not see; and hearing, do not hear, neither do they understand." Matthew 13:11-13

I quote the above because it is an example of the fact that even christianity is an Initiatic system. There is more in the bible to prove this, if necessary, without having to take anything out of context. As an Initiate myself, I can attest to the fact that there is that which is plain and that which is hidden...but it is only hidden to those who do not know how to see.

Peace and Blessing to you and yours

Theology: 362, from O.Fr. theologie "philosophical treatment of Christian doctrine" (14c.), from L. theologia, from Gk. theologia "an account of the gods," from theologos "one discoursing on the gods," from theos "god" (see Thea) + -logos "treating of."

"-ology":a suffix; a branch of learning; science, study of...; from Greek world logos.

"Theos":theos "god," from PIE base *dhes-, root of words applied to various religious concepts, e.g. L. feriae "holidays," festus "festive," fanum "temple." (same as "ntr"/"ntru")

"spirit":c.1250, "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from O.Fr. espirit, from L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath," related to spirare "to breathe," from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cf. O.C.S. pisto "to play on the flute"). Original usage in Eng. mainly from passages in Vulgate, where the L. word translates Gk. pneuma and Heb. ruah. Distinction between "soul" and "spirit" (as "seat of emotions") became current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus) but "is without significance for earlier periods" [Buck]. L. spiritus, usually in classical L. "breath," replaces animus in the sense "spirit" in the imperial period and appears in Christian writings as the usual equivalent of Gk. pneuma. Meaning "supernatural being" is attested from c.1300 (see ghost); that of "essential principle of something" (in a non-theological sense, e.g. Spirit of St. Louis) is attested from 1690, common after 1800.

"spiritual": "of or concerning the spirit" (especially in religious aspects), 1303, from O.Fr. spirituel (12c.), from L. spiritualis, from spiritus "of breathing, of the spirit" (see spirit). Meaning "of or concerning the church" is attested from 1338. The noun sense of "African-American religious song" first recorded 1866. Spirituality (1417) is from M.Fr. spiritualite, from L.L. spiritualitatem (nom. spiritualitas), from L. spiritualis). An earlier form was spiritualty (1377).

"Science": c.1300, "knowledge (of something) acquired by study," also "a particular branch of knowledge," from O.Fr. science, from L. scientia "knowledge," from sciens (gen. scientis), prp. of scire "to know," probably originally "to separate one thing from another, to distinguish," related to scindere "to cut, divide," from PIE base *skei- (cf. Gk. skhizein "to split, rend, cleave," Goth. skaidan, O.E. sceadan "to divide, separate;" see shed (v.)). Modern sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1678. The distinction is commonly understood as between theoretical truth (Gk. episteme) and methods for effecting practical results (tekhne), but science sometimes is used for practical applications and art for applications of skill. Main modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions ... concerning any subject or speculation" is attested from 1725; in 17c.-18c. this concept commonly was called philosophy.

"Knowledge": M.E. cnawlece. For first element see know. Second element obscure, perhaps cognate with the -lock "action, process," found in wedlock.

"Know":": O.E. cnawan (class VII strong verb; past tense cneow, pp. cnawen), from P.Gmc. *knoeanan (cf. O.H.G. bi-chnaan, ir-chnaan "to know"), from PIE base *gno- "to know" (cf. O.Pers. xšnasatiy "he shall know;" O.C.S. znati, Rus. znat "to know;" L. gnoscere; Gk. *gno-, as in gignoskein; Skt. jna- "know"). Once widespread in Gmc., this form is now retained only in Eng., where however it has widespread application, covering meanings that require two or more verbs in other languages (e.g. Ger. wissen, kennen, erkennen and in part können; Fr. connaître, savoir; L. novisse, cognoscire, scire; O.C.S. znaja, vemi). The Anglo-Saxons used two distinct words for this, witan (see wit) and cnawan.

"Self": O.E. self, seolf, sylf "one's own person, same," from P.Gmc. *selbaz (cf. O.N. sjalfr, O.Fris. self, Du. zelf, O.H.G. selb, Ger. selbst, Goth. silba), P.Gmc. *selbaz, from PIE *sel-bho-, from base *s(w)e- "separate, apart"

Moorfius

06-14-2007, 02:20 AM

Hotep

The first and still the "Root" of all languages spoken on this planet today and forever is the TWI...the same language spoken in west so-called Africa today* Medu Neteru is the same language spoken by the "Initiates" and Priest who are the Keepers of the "Secrets" given to us by the "Creator"* (secrets to protect them from being Corrupted by the Invaders/distroyers)

The understanding of these sets of reference frames leads to the inevitable conclusion that language is of divine origin and that Man/Woman is an "Alien" on this earth. The Creator gave language to (Us) Woman/Man. Man did not invent language. It was given to us to facilitate the projects we came here to execute. Prepare yourself for the next set of statements: Our home base is within the (RA) "SUN"!

We landed on this earth as part of a project to create a heaven on earth or to create beauty on earth...hence..."Care-Takers". We were one people (Khui/Twi) speaking one language (Khui/Twi) with knowledge of our "Unity".

We lost the purpose of our mission and lost our navigating instruments for our return journey. We were stranded. This was not an accident as we will learn in..."The Book of the Thing".

In fact...one meaning of the word "Earth" in the TWI is "Ea-r-t-h = Ea-re-te-ha" i.e. "In pain, agony and sorrow we live here" But we do not have to live in pain, agony and sorrow. Once we recognize the "Thing" and the total unity of the Thing and ourselves (PEOPLE KNOW THY SELF), we shall all be on the original course...MAAT

Medu means word and Neteru means G-d...hence...Word of G-d or Creator.

Ase`

Allah

06-17-2007, 02:36 AM

MenNefer

06-17-2007, 04:07 AM

Peace. I disagree with the translation of Ntrw = "God" Ntr means
INFLUENCE, so the Mdw Ntr is the Words of Influence. Mdw Ntrw is the
Words of the Influences. Peace.

Peace Almighty:

Could you give me your reference of Neter or Ntr meaning Influence.

Although the word "God" definitively doesn't do much justice to Neter; form/functionally in its meaning.

Allah

06-21-2007, 03:24 PM

Peace Almighty:

Could you give me your reference of Neter or Ntr meaning Influence.

Although the word "God" definitively doesn't do much justice to Neter; form/functionally in its meaning.

The coptic and greek words that were later used in its place nouti, nutar and nutra, nature
which mean "power" "force" etc. and the symbol used for Ntr is the axe which
also means force or power. Power is Influence. I as the Supreme Being, Black Man, God, Allah (Rh), am Influential, but not all INFLUENCES are "god" or the Supreme Being. There are Fundamentals, Influences, Essentials and "natures" but they are not all the Supreme Being Original Man.
Do you see me? Also, all the Influences were first manifested by Rh (Ra) using the substrate I was in which is called Nw (Nu) which is the zero point energy fluctations in the vacuum to generate electromagnetic waves and pair particle production.
Peace.

emanuel goodman

06-21-2007, 10:23 PM

The coptic and greek words that were later used in its place nouti, nutar and nutra, nature
which mean "power" "force" etc. and the symbol used for Ntr is the axe which
also means force or power. Power is Influence. I as the Supreme Being, Black Man, God, Allah (Rh), am Influential, but not all INFLUENCES are "god" or the Supreme Being. There are Fundamentals, Influences, Essentials and "natures" but they are not all the Supreme Being Original Man.
Do you see me? Also, all the Influences were first manifested by Rh (Ra) using the substrate I was in which is called Nw (Nu) which is the zero point energy fluctations in the vacuum to generate electromagnetic waves and pair particle production.
Peace.

The above all are concepts that were created by our ancestors in order to teach us there children about creation. Ntr neter neteru natural nature all are words to describe different states of the whole. There are like flash cards unto a child. The front displays 14 the back displays 7*2. Ra, isis,heru,tah, neteru, nu,etc are all names and titles given to things that have no name only existence. The title= the thought process which puts the image of the specific part of the creator into our image nation. These specific entites can be titled anything .What is important is do we overstand how ra( the reflection of the source operates). To we overstand the teachings of the holy drama, and not get caught up into the personifications of characters such as isis heru and set and the beloved example left by wisr. It is time to move forward and get into the action of things. These examples left in the heroglyphics were left for us to remember the importance of learning about family (all things ) All of the aspects of creation from the 4 forces, unto the sun (hydrogen) as we call it are family members. As we begin to relearn the different aspects of mother neter we will begin to understand ourselves. If we continue to bicker different aspects of the original re ligion which means to re tie in to our orgins we will be no different and become dispersed and seperated .just like the fallen fruit of the lessons of our first way ancestors in the forum of the grotesque re ligions that are currently destroying the planet.
When will we begin to overstand that we are all a piece of the pie?
When will we understand the we are in the creator and never left the creator.
When will we understand that the creator and us are one if it where not the case then we would not exist?
Everything is the creator and the creator is Everything.
ntr is not the lanquaqe of the creator for the creator has no lanquage the creator is all lanquaqes . We must watch nature for she follows the laws and laws(matt physical)of the creator unvoluntarily. We have a choice and choose not to do so daily. by the way greetings and hotep to all of my forward thinking brothers on this topic i welcome your responses. hotep wadu

MenNefer

06-21-2007, 11:51 PM

OmowaleX

06-22-2007, 12:58 AM

The above all are concepts that were created by our ancestors in order to teach us there children about creation. Ntr neter neteru natural nature all are words to describe different states of the whole. There are like flash cards unto a child. The front displays 14 the back displays 7*2. Ra, isis,heru,tah, neteru, nu,etc are all names and titles given to things that have no name only existence. The title= the thought process which puts the image of the specific part of the creator into our image nation. These specific entites can be titled anything .What is important is do we overstand how ra( the reflection of the source operates). To we overstand the teachings of the holy drama, and not get caught up into the personifications of characters such as isis heru and set and the beloved example left by wisr. It is time to move forward and get into the action of things. These examples left in the heroglyphics were left for us to remember the importance of learning about family (all things ) All of the aspects of creation from the 4 forces, unto the sun (hydrogen) as we call it are family members. As we begin to relearn the different aspects of mother neter we will begin to understand ourselves. If we continue to bicker different aspects of the original re ligion which means to re tie in to our orgins we will be no different and become dispersed and seperated .just like the fallen fruit of the lessons of our first way ancestors in the forum of the grotesque re ligions that are currently destroying the planet.
When will we begin to overstand that we are all a piece of the pie?
When will we understand the we are in the creator and never left the creator.
When will we understand that the creator and us are one if it where not the case then we would not exist?
Everything is the creator and the creator is Everything.
ntr is not the lanquaqe of the creator for the creator has no lanquage the creator is all lanquaqes . We must watch nature for she follows the laws and laws(matt physical)of the creator unvoluntarily. We have a choice and choose not to do so daily. by the way greetings and hotep to all of my forward thinking brothers on this topic i welcome your responses. hotep waduExcellent breakdown brother emanuel. You make one point which helps me as I debate these points less and am APPLYING concepts/principles more. As you stated,

"We must watch nature for she follows the laws and laws(matt physical)of the creator unvoluntarily.We have a choice and choose not to do so daily."

Our ancestors lived according to and COMMANDED these "concepts" but today we have become slave and subject to the very same "concepts" which we "created". How then can so many claim to be "god" or "goddess" when in fact have become over-ruled and over-lorded by same which we under-rather-than-over-stand?

Quote:

"It is time to move forward and get into the action of things."

Unfortunately, it is my over-standing that for many we are days late and too many dollars short. Contaminated food source, "nature out of balanc" (el nino, floods in texas, drought in sahel, collapse of entire bee colonies, spread of brown moth further contaminating and feeding on contaminated food supply) too much too late to re-store and re-build cuz too many debating in forums and simply not LIVING RIGHT. Arguing over word but not "doin' the right deed". Blind faiths empty of practice.

How many here are planting gardens, growing crops, recycling waste, conserving energy giving daily sustinance to the very "divinites" (animal,plant and insect LIVING BEINGS) which we once held as precious as LIFE itself?

Too much talk about nothing with zero or less action.

Peace

OmowaleX

06-22-2007, 01:10 AM

For those who know , please can you tell me/us, in which specific African language the word "Metu Neter" originated.

Bless you all

The "word" "originated" not in any specific "language" but in the primeval "UTTERANCE" of the LIVING BEINGS (neteru) which inhabited this planet millions and billions of years before the development of oral or written "language".

it is the "utterance" which "divinities" from the honeybee, to the scarab, to the butterfly use to "commune" and to bring forth the germination, pollination and sustinanace of all LIFE, particularly vegatative living beings, which in turn provide oxygen for us to be able to BREATHE before we can do anything else.

Today, complete bee colonies and other insect/animal species have become "disoriented" and are losing this "communicative power" and this is being reflected in "natural disasters" as MAAT (order and balance) has been lost and is not being re-stored.

Once upon a time we had the ability to communicate with bees, scarabs, scorpions, snakes and other forms as today we communicate with "domesticated" animals but today these "divine" insects and animals are rapidly dying and changes in living environment due to "natural" disaster and global climactic changeis creating further divide between all living beings.

Point being, the origin of the "word" is the language of the "neteru" not, the language of MAN.

Peace...

Allah

06-23-2007, 12:32 PM

The "word" "originated" not in any specific "language" but in the primeval "UTTERANCE" of the LIVING BEINGS (neteru) which inhabited this planet millions and billions of years before the development of oral or written "language".

it is the "utterance" which "divinities" from the honeybee, to the scarab, to the butterfly use to "commune" and to bring forth the germination, pollination and sustinanace of all LIFE, particularly vegatative living beings, which in turn provide oxygen for us to be able to BREATHE before we can do anything else.

Today, complete bee colonies and other insect/animal species have become "disoriented" and are losing this "communicative power" and this is being reflected in "natural disasters" as MAAT (order and balance) has been lost and is not being re-stored.

Once upon a time we had the ability to communicate with bees, scarabs, scorpions, snakes and other forms as today we communicate with "domesticated" animals but today these "divine" insects and animals are rapidly dying and changes in living environment due to "natural" disaster and global climactic changeis creating further divide between all living beings.

Point being, the origin of the "word" is the language of the "neteru" not, the language of MAN.

Peace...

Man is a Ntr (Influence) though, and in fact the collegiate systems in the Hpy River
Valley taught Man that Rh Wsr and Hrw, Solar Offices, (And for females
Ht Hrw, Nb Ht and Wst) are the various stages
of Man dealing with his environment or Universe. They taught man how to
apply him self as a Ntr as well as apply the Ntr
in his Brain, Body and Environment. The imbalances you stated happen
periodically through time on this planet, and also are INFLUENCED by Man
and the descendents of Man, so Man must be a Ntr, because on the subtle
level Man can "Make" (INFLUENCE) Rain Hail Snow and Earthquakes, and
other natural phenomena, either through planet wide distribution of agriculture
and husbandry, through industry, or even on the so called chaos mechanical
level by having the DETERMINED IDEA to change the initial conditions of a
mechanical or fluid system in a small way that will generate a more profound
change and outcome overall in the future.

I understand where you are going with the bees and cross pollination thing,
however we as the Supreme Being used to use aquatic flora also in
past aeons, and we are also still fruitarians by nature so we would have to
take up slack for the bees by interfacing with self pollinating/fertilizing fruit
plants such as feijoa, vista solo papaya, olive, tomato, etc.

Peace
Divine Ruler Equality Allah
The Nation of Gods and Earths

OmowaleX

06-23-2007, 04:29 PM

Man is a Ntr (Influence) though, and in fact the collegiate systems in the Hpy River
Valley taught Man that Rh Wsr and Hrw, Solar Offices, (And for females
Ht Hrw, Nb Ht and Wst) are the various stages
of Man dealing with his environment or Universe. They taught man how to
apply him self as a Ntr as well as apply the Ntr
in his Brain, Body and Environment. The imbalances you stated happen
periodically through time on this planet, and also are INFLUENCED by Man
and the descendents of Man, so Man must be a Ntr, because on the subtle
level Man can "Make" (INFLUENCE) Rain Hail Snow and Earthquakes, and
other natural phenomena, either through planet wide distribution of agriculture
and husbandry, through industry, or even on the so called chaos mechanical
level by having the DETERMINED IDEA to change the initial conditions of a
mechanical or fluid system in a small way that will generate a more profound
change and outcome overall in the future.

I understand where you are going with the bees and cross pollination thing,
however we as the Supreme Being used to use aquatic flora also in
past aeons, and we are also still fruitarians by nature so we would have to
take up slack for the bees by interfacing with self pollinating/fertilizing fruit
plants such as feijoa, vista solo papaya, olive, tomato, etc.

Peace
Divine Ruler Equality Allah
The Nation of Gods and Earths

I hear everything you are saying but of course I disagree that "we as the Supreme Being" are in-DEED "Supreme Beings".

"Man" himself is SUBJECT to the "influence" of electro-magnetism from numerous galactic Bodies and if the "Sun" was to explode today "Man" on "Earth" would cease to exist but the UNIVERSE would still continue and new Stars and Planets will still continue their LIFE Cycles while the Life Cycle of "man" would come to an End.

Peace...

emanuel goodman

06-24-2007, 01:16 AM

I hear everything you are saying but of course I disagree that "we as the Supreme Being" are in-DEED "Supreme Beings".

"Man" himself is SUBJECT to the "influence" of electro-magnetism from numerous galactic Bodies and if the "Sun" was to explode today "Man" on "Earth" would cease to exist but the UNIVERSE would still continue and new Stars and Planets will still continue their LIFE Cycles while the Life Cycle of "man" would come to an End.

Peace...

Dear omo, the cycle of our ancestors could never end. We are products of the source a reflection of the source just like the sun my brother. In order for us to end the source must end as well. What is was , what it is, what it again shall be. We as children of the first way ancestors are part of the cycle. we have the blood of the divine beings dwelling in us. This is what makes us different. Ta ma hu have a beginning and end. we have none that is why our ancestors were considered gods by the creations that were made by our ancestors on this planet. our existence is a result of a natural chemical change by the will of the source it commanded itself to be in all respects. This is a never ending cycle. we are children of the sun we can never die just change physical forum. The greeks romans have a hard time with the concept it lead them to term us immortals. hotep wadu

Allah

06-24-2007, 01:43 AM

I hear everything you are saying but of course I disagree that "we as the Supreme Being" are in-DEED "Supreme Beings".

"Man" himself is SUBJECT to the "influence" of electro-magnetism from numerous galactic Bodies and if the "Sun" was to explode today "Man" on "Earth" would cease to exist but the UNIVERSE would still continue and new Stars and Planets will still continue their LIFE Cycles while the Life Cycle of "man" would come to an End.

Peace...

Peace. To me the destruction of the biological organism man uses would
NOT be the destruction of Man. Because the "idea" of MAN would still exist,
and eventually the elements in the universe would come back together to
produce the organism that MAN uses as the managerial organism in the
UNIVERSE. The same way you can take a sea cumcumber and put it in a
blender and break it down to it's "compound" but the cells would come back
together to form the organism again. That's what I mean by Man being
God. His Body is not God, HE is God, by virtue of him being the highest order
of Living Mathematics. I mean the Original Man here, not the caucasian
white man.
Peace.

emanuel goodman

06-24-2007, 01:55 AM

Peace. To me the destruction of the biological organism man uses would
NOT be the destruction of Man. Because the "idea" of MAN would still exist,
and eventually the elements in the universe would come back together to
produce the organism that MAN uses as the managerial organism in the
UNIVERSE. The same way you can take a sea cumcumber and put it in a
blender and break it down to it's "compound" but the cells would come back
together to form the organism again. That's what I mean by Man being
God. His Body is not God, HE is God, by virtue of him being the highest order
of Living Mathematics. I mean the Original Man here, not the caucasian
white man.
Peace.

true indeed hotep wadu

OmowaleX

06-24-2007, 11:31 AM

Dear omo, the cycle of our ancestors could never end. We are products of the source a reflection of the source just like the sun my brother. In order for us to end the source must end as well. What is was , what it is, what it again shall be. We as children of the first way ancestors are part of the cycle. we have the blood of the divine beings dwelling in us. This is what makes us different. Ta ma hu have a beginning and end. we have none that is why our ancestors were considered gods by the creations that were made by our ancestors on this planet. our existence is a result of a natural chemical change by the will of the source it commanded itself to be in all respects. This is a never ending cycle. we are children of the sun we can never die just change physical forum. The greeks romans have a hard time with the concept it lead them to term us immortals. hotep wadu

The UNIVERSE is how many billions of years? "Man" is relatively recent as a LIVING being and will cease to exist as a carbon-based, oxygen-breathing Being soon as the NATURAL environment on EARTH is destroyed.

Until any of you can PROVE the existence of LIVING MAN anywhere else other than EARTH you are "philosophizing".

You say "this is a never ending cycle". Completely FALSE.

"Man" would not exist if the SUN were to EXPLODE today. And the SUN, as is the case with ALL STARS has a beginning and an END.

Just as the SUN shall have and END, as do ALL STARS, so shall "Man".

emanuel goodman

06-24-2007, 12:44 PM

The UNIVERSE is how many billions of years? "Man" is relatively recent as a LIVING being and will cease to exist as a carbon-based, oxygen-breathing Being soon as the NATURAL environment on EARTH is destroyed.

Until any of you can PROVE the existence of LIVING MAN anywhere else other than EARTH you are "philosophizing".

You say "this is a never ending cycle". Completely FALSE.

"Man" would not exist if the SUN were to EXPLODE today. And the SUN, as is the case with ALL STARS has a beginning and an END.

Just as the SUN shall have and END, as do ALL STARS, so shall "Man".

The cycle of natural events do not have to be proven just observed dear omo. Take water for example water has 3 states. like all things liquid solid gas. it is indeed true about everything on the physcial illusionary side having a beginning and end omo. however it does not end because all things are a part of the creator that have come into existence throught the will. they change back because of the will as well. The creator has a pattern so to speak. The evidence of other stars and systems is proof the natural occurence (living beings) is taking place over and over again. We are part of the natural process omo. I know it is difficult to contemplate us being in the image and likeness of the creator however it is true. I know it is hard to think of your self as a reflection of the creator especially after all the heavy brain washing and programming we have all been through. Take time to review the natural process and u will to come to the same conculsions our ancestors have to come to several billions of years ago.

OmowaleX

06-24-2007, 12:50 PM

The cycle of natural events do not have to be proven just observed dear omo. Take water for example water has 3 states. like all things liquid solid gas. it is indeed true about everything on the physcial illusionary side having a beginning and end omo. however it does not end because all things are a part of the creator that have come into existence throught the will. they change back because of the will as well. The creator has a pattern so to speak. The evidence of other stars and systems is proof the natural occurence (living beings) is taking place over and over again. We are part of the natural process omo. I know it is difficult to contemplate us being in the image and likeness of the creator however it is true. I know it is hard to think of your self as a reflection of the creator especially after all the heavy brain washing and programming we have all been through. Take time to review the natural process and u will to come to the same conculsions our ancestors have to come to several billions of years ago.

Our "ancestors" did not exist "several billions of years ago" during the Archaean and you nor anyone else has proof to the contrary.

emanuel goodman

06-24-2007, 02:05 PM

Our "ancestors" did not esixt "several billions of years ago" during the Archaean and you nor anyone else has proof to the contrary.

we are not in control omo these occurrences are subject to the desire of the creator. we are part of a natural occurrence through the elements. The elements have allways existed. As ether opions we are considered gases beings because. our original state of existence allowed us to interact within ourselves as being a part of the creator and not an individual. Divine love is experienced within us as well as a state of hotep when this is realized. Our bloodline runs throught the sun as ta mu reans . Throught the first el or element hydrogen these actions have taken place several times over and over again. Time is only measured inside of a controlled enviornment such as ours dictated by chemical change were there is no chemical change everything just is. We are in our infancy state of development not overstanding the creator not even overstanding that we are not in dividuals as we have been programmed to "be live". This continous action is not governed by our very weak level of understanding. hell we are still arguing about fairy tales and fables that are trying to teach about the true ancestors the planets stars the essence of it all. Think out side of the programming and u will see that once a cycle starts it is continous this cycle has allways existed are ancestors being divine creations and a part of it all via the elements have to have the same fate as the whole. I am what i am

OmowaleX

06-25-2007, 01:33 AM

we are not in control omo these occurrences are subject to the desire of the creator. we are part of a natural occurrence through the elements. The elements have allways existed. As ether opions we are considered gases beings because. our original state of existence allowed us to interact within ourselves as being a part of the creator and not an individual. Divine love is experienced within us as well as a state of hotep when this is realized. Our bloodline runs throught the sun as ta mu reans . Throught the first el or element hydrogen these actions have taken place several times over and over again. Time is only measured inside of a controlled enviornment such as ours dictated by chemical change were there is no chemical change everything just is. We are in our infancy state of development not overstanding the creator not even overstanding that we are not in dividuals as we have been programmed to "be live". This continous action is not governed by our very weak level of understanding. hell we are still arguing about fairy tales and fables that are trying to teach about the true ancestors the planets stars the essence of it all. Think out side of the programming and u will see that once a cycle starts it is continous this cycle has allways existed are ancestors being divine creations and a part of it all via the elements have to have the same fate as the whole. I am what i am
Not all cycles are continuous. There is a beginning and there is an end. This is why some species become EXTINCT. Their Life Cycles came to an end. The same for various societies and civilizations. They were birthed, grew and developed then fell, collapsed and came to an end.

The same is true of "Man". You say you are "gaseous" but you are a flesh-and-bone Being. One that is dependent upon oxygen for your survival. Once the oxygen is depleted in this Earth-environment you too shall become EXTINCT. So this does not make you or me "GOD" because neither you nor I RULE OVER ALL THINGS.

You are a SUBJECT to the 'elements'. The "Sun" itself will one day become a Red dwarf and the earth shall become uninhabitable for "Man".

emanuel goodman

06-25-2007, 02:20 AM

Not all cycles are continuous. There is a beginning and there is an end. This is why some species become EXTINCT. Their Life Cycles came to an end. The same for various societies and civilizations. They were birthed, grew and developed then fell, collapsed and came to an end.

The same is true of "Man". You say you are "gaseous" but you are a flesh-and-bone Being. One that is dependent upon oxygen for your survival. Once the oxygen is depleted in this Earth-environment you too shall become EXTINCT. So this does not make you or me "GOD" because neither you nor I RULE OVER ALL THINGS.

You are a SUBJECT to the 'elements'. The "Sun" itself will one day become a Red dwarf and the earth shall become uninhabitable for "Man".

never equated my self with the g.o.d. that is popular with re ligion in it's very forms for that character does not exisit. The amimals u mentioned above were killed they demise was not of a natural occurrence. See the gilagemesh epics regarding the shams slamming into qi and causing a dust cloud to hover the earth. however via natual progression they to being a product of it all will re evolve if the mathmatics regarding the composure of the elements that are associated with it's development are consistent.

OmowaleX

06-25-2007, 02:40 AM

never equated my self with the g.o.d. that is popular with re ligion in it's very forms for that character does not exisit. The amimals u mentioned above were killed they demise was not of a natural occurrence. See the gilagemesh epics regarding the shams slamming into qi and causing a dust cloud to hover the earth. however via natual progression they to being a product of it all will re evolve if the mathmatics regarding the composure of the elements that are associated with it's development are consistent.

Perhaps YOU "never equated my self with the g.o.d. that is popular with re- ligion in it's very forms forms that character does not exist" but I was not speaking to or addressing you in the first place!

However, there are many who DO equate themselves with the concept of "God" or "Goddess" at it is those who I have attempted to address.

Furthermore, "the shams slamming into qi and causing a dust cloud to hover the earth" IS a "natural progression" and when the "Sun" turns red dwarf and later ends its Star Cycle a similar process will END the Life Cycle of Earth-bound beings such as "Man".

So, again, "Man" is not "God" or a "Divinity" but a lesser being who is being punished for "uttering words against Him".

Peace...

hiphopolx

06-25-2007, 03:58 PM

never equated my self with the g.o.d. that is popular with re ligion in it's very forms for that character does not exisit. The amimals u mentioned above were killed they demise was not of a natural occurrence. See the gilagemesh epics regarding the shams slamming into qi and causing a dust cloud to hover the earth. however via natual progression they to being a product of it all will re evolve if the mathmatics regarding the composure of the elements that are associated with it's development are consistent.
Peace bro

You/me not equating your 'self' with thee God/creator is a matter of perspective. (as oppose to right vs. wrong which I'm not saying you are doing) but for you to relate yourself/ancestors to stars and planets predating billions of years ago is a stretch and unique perspective, but are you stopping there? Why not just stretch your lineage all the way to the first(or should I say your 1st) manefastation, since you wanna go beyond our present physical form?
:qqb014:

emanuel goodman

06-26-2007, 02:01 AM

Peace bro

You/me not equating your 'self' with thee God/creator is a matter of perspective. (as oppose to right vs. wrong which I'm not saying you are doing) but for you to relate yourself/ancestors to stars and planets predating billions of years ago is a stretch and unique perspective, but are you stopping there? Why not just stretch your lineage all the way to the first(or should I say your 1st) manefastation, since you wanna go beyond our present physical form?
:qqb014:

hotep brother

we must begin to think with our own minds. how far back does your lineage go within your own fam do u stop at your grandmother or are u interested in your dna and where it came from? I just want to gain a proper perpective regarding our story. Our story does not end with the physical side the teachings left by our ancestors (egypt,sumeria,ether opians) speak of us having a distinct connection to the source via the elements. I'm just trying to learn from the examples i'm given and not let my thinking become stagnated by all of the previous assumptions i have made because of my programming. while in attendance to church and school and forced to think one way. hotep sir

omowalejabali

09-09-2007, 08:49 PM

hotep brother

we must begin to think with our own minds. how far back does your lineage go within your own fam do u stop at your grandmother or are u interested in your dna and where it came from? I just want to gain a proper perpective regarding our story. Our story does not end with the physical side the teachings left by our ancestors (egypt,sumeria,ether opians) speak of us having a distinct connection to the source via the elements. I'm just trying to learn from the examples i'm given and not let my thinking become stagnated by all of the previous assumptions i have made because of my programming. while in attendance to church and school and forced to think one way. hotep sir

I now better overstand this perspective and must agree. It took awhile but a few more things have recently come into Remembrance.

omowalejabali

01-07-2008, 10:12 PM

I agree, but it did sound as if you were accepting the first defintion that you were given.

A definition, by the way, is NOT correct.

As to which language, I've already indicated that the language is KEMAU.

Remnants of this language/dialect is still being used, as is discussed in the book that I mentioned previously: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...64066113&itm=1

PEACE

Can someone please provide some references to this "language" within the specific context of "Kemau language". I am familiar, for example, with Hieratic and Meroitic script. Is there a similar writing system?

Fine1952

01-07-2008, 10:47 PM

I agree.

Moorfius

01-08-2008, 07:08 AM

Hotep

The problem is...if we don't know history then we don't know ourselves. Another problem is...the need for most of us to always try to compare what we "Think" we know and use that to find a solution for understanding "Medu Neteru.

In Amerikkka we pronounce the word of G-d...Metu Neter but among the initiates this word does not exist outside of understanding what is mint by it...knowing it is a common usage among most who are seeking to find their way home.

Medu Neteru...has a U on the end of it!

Remember: We must find our own way back home...meaning just what it says. Also...we must do our own research and verify things for our self...this is the only way to know for your self, because sometimes people can make mistakes.
by over looking small details or being too much in a hurry.

Know that the first and oldest language spoken on this planet is the "TWI" language. Then it stands to reason that if the oldest language is TWI...that it is...then the so-called "Hieroglyphs" that are properly called "Medu Neteru" are in that same language as well...TWI.

Every language spoken today on the planet/Tamert comes from the..."Original" and first language that is...used/spoken by the Black Ancestors...the TWI...and it is still spoken and used....among the "Initiates" who study the secret text/mystries in KMT...still in its pure form.

It is the language used in the so-called "Mysteries Schools/African Traditions/Spirituality...taught in the temples, nomes and the Kemetic Bush. The...Medu Neteru...so-called...language is still spoken, taught, written and understood by those who are...Kemetic...initiated students and their instructors and guides...the "Kemetic-Priest"...who are and have always been...also...the keepers of the Kemetic...traditions, Culture, Sciences, Spirituality etc.

Ase`

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