We discuss a lot of methods and strategies to attack the "defenses" of women, as men at this board, so I thought I'd ask brothers how much they are into reading the BODY LANGUAGE of sisters, and the signals they send out when they are attracted to a man, and when they are not???

I am no expert in this field, but a good little while ago I learned that there was a thing called non-verbal communication even when I couldn't spell either word... I learned it from ma and pa, by how they looked at me when they were annoyed with me, and when they were pleased with me. I learned, later, that little girls would avoid eye contact with me when they liked me, and still later, how they switched their hips a little stronger to attract male attention...

30 years later, it is no different... I find myself still deciphering body language, particularly from women, who are the masters of the art... Ladies don't have the perogative of making aggressive verbal moves on men, so they've learned how to get our attention with movement, with touch and feel, and using all their other senses, attract a man's attention... Much like a Blind person learns to use their other senses to a very sharpened acuity, so, too, do women use theirs... I feel that this is one area that we've overlooked in our discussions, because it is so hard to "verbalize" it... How do you verbalize an unspoken language???(smile!)

Problem is, if a man does not have basic understanding of this language, he is in a world of trouble when it comes to "figuring out" women... He is in a world of trouble trying to figure them out when he knows a little something about it, so just imagine not knowing anything about it??? On a personal level, the task of deciphering women's codes is far clearer than it was when I was a child, but there are instances when I wonder what in the hell is she up to??? Why'd she do that??? And then I thank GOD I don't know it all, because being a little confused is a good thing, because it makes you think...(smile!) I had such an event today, and it stayed on my mind so strong that I had to write this post(smile!) Of course, I figured it out because I am no "genius..." I just simply gave up trying to figure out what sister was doing when I realized that she had accomplished all she wanted me to do, and that was THINK - about her, of course... (smile!)

What are some of you guys thoughts on this topic... I'd greatly love to hear some of your war stories and personal histories regarding BODY LANGUAGE events...


Peace!
Isaiah

I would like to learn more about this....

In my (under)experience, I've been told that women that I thought were interested in me, actually weren't, and those that I thought hated my guts, were really into me.

I would love to know the mystery behind this.

I am a humble student, to all who have knowledge.

PEACE

ha,who can figure women out?in my humble experience i've noticed that sometimes a woman will stand close to you or keep a conversation going when you might be outta things to say or give you that longing look that ask [are you interested or what]the ladies know how to send out the signals even when we don't know when to pick em up.

I would like to learn more about this....

In my (under)experience, I've been told that women that I thought were interested in me, actually weren't, and those that I thought hated my guts, were really into me.

I would love to know the mystery behind this.

I am a humble student, to all who have knowledge.

PEACE
Brother Sam, gotta tell you that it's situational, these events, and attempts to generalize them are not a good idea... I remember reading Julius Fast's book, entitled BODY LANGUAGE, many, many years ago, and he spoke of BODY LANGUAGE in tems of clusters of movements in various social situations... But he generalized certain movements like, for example, the crossing of the legs TOWARD another person to lock them into a convo, and those facing the other direction would effectively be locked out... He spoke of the opened and closed positon of the arms and the legs as symbolic of a mind opened or closed to approach and conversation... He spoke of the outstretched arms, in their context, as meaning sincerity or frustration...

With women, I have found that their eyes tell major stories, and women know that, which is why they will do whatever it take to avert their eyes from the gaze of a man... Eye Contact and a smile, I have personally found, opens the door to approach, though they may not guarantee the result one might want - unless a little conversation is all one wants... That aint bad either, because a little leads to a lot sometimes... I have found the whole thing about clusters to be true, as well, because if woman has looked at a man, and seen what she likes, she will send signals for him to approach... Part of that cluster can mean that she literally turns her back on you, and waits for you to do what a man is "supposed" to do...

Sam, yes, sisters have cursed me out, rolled over my foot with heavy carts, actually stepped on my foot with thier heels, and when I was a kid(like 12 years old)a young sister in my class grabbed my knit cap, and threw it down the hall, and laughed(smile!) Now, as a hothead kid, I wanted to do her bodily harm, but since she was a girl, I went and tried to pick up my hat...but she beat me to the punch, and ran off with my hat again... And sister was pretty fast... So when I caught up to her, I literally was hugging the sister trying to retrieve that hat as she held it away from me... The touch, the feel of her heaving chest, out of breath, then the eye contact...wow, the light bulb came on in me, and I didn't really care about my hat in anymore... Her smile caused me to smile, almost chemically... I think THAT incident was my first lesson in the way females use body language, and alternative means to attract a male...

Sam, part of communication with women is in knowing how to read the unspoken stuff... It informs you on how fast or slow you can move, whether she's feeling a level of affection for you or not... I mean, if she walks pretty close to you, or aggressively/assertively touches you, or isn't offended by an accidental touching of her person... That means she may be comfortable with you, at ease in your presence... All that having been said, the eyes say a lot to, and about, women... Those are the windows of our souls... Pay close attention, and you cannot lose in terms of understanding whom you're dealing with...my humble philosoph...


Peace!
Isaiah

I speak to a lot of people on a daily basis... Hey I'm southern... It's just what we do... BUT.... I rarely look a man in the eye for more than a spilt second if I want to just go on about my merry little way. So I'm with you on eye contact (prolonged) or many quick glances and a smile goes a long way. I would also argue that when a woman is attracted to a man she will find reasons/excuses to touch him;reapeated touching can only mean one thing--attraction... that's if they are already engaging in dialogue. she's ask open ended questions that require more than a yes/no response... if the answers are cut and dry she'll hang about during that ackward moment of silence cause she doesn't want to leave but doesn't really know what to say.... if she' on the opposite side of the room she'll move close enough to you so that she can easily see you and you see her... if there is a place where she has the advantage she will choose that spot first... i forgot we were talking about body language... lol... okay... fidgeting is a sign of attraction... well with me... after i get that first glance or feeling that i may want to explore something with said man then i try hard not to look at him.... which is the same thing i do when i am not attracted to a man... however... if i'm not attracted i'll try to get as far as i can if he thinks i'm attracted to him... i hate the ackwardness of saying, "no thank you."...

i know it's very confusing... if i think about it it's confusing... i would say that i'm a people person... some say i'm a flirt... rule of thumb with me... unless i really know him... i'm not laughing and giggling with a dude off top that i'm not familiar with... he's just cool... now the dude i'm attracted to... i prolly wont' say hardly anything to him... backasswards i am...

now i'm wondering do men have body language... i don't know about men using subtle hints... like yesterday i was out to lunch with a friend and the manager of the establishment kept trying to get my attention... lol.. i almost died laughing... i kept looking up and he was looking at me... i dont' care what direction i faced... lol... now if that's subtle knock me over with a feather stick... lol

I speak to a lot of people on a daily basis... Hey I'm southern... It's just what we do... BUT.... I rarely look a man in the eye for more than a spilt second if I want to just go on about my merry little way. So I'm with you on eye contact (prolonged) or many quick glances and a smile goes a long way. I would also argue that when a woman is attracted to a man she will find reasons/excuses to touch him;reapeated touching can only mean one thing--attraction... that's if they are already engaging in dialogue. she's ask open ended questions that require more than a yes/no response... if the answers are cut and dry she'll hang about during that ackward moment of silence cause she doesn't want to leave but doesn't really know what to say.... if she' on the opposite side of the room she'll move close enough to you so that she can easily see you and you see her... if there is a place where she has the advantage she will choose that spot first... i forgot we were talking about body language... lol... okay... fidgeting is a sign of attraction... well with me... after i get that first glance or feeling that i may want to explore something with said man then i try hard not to look at him.... which is the same thing i do when i am not attracted to a man... however... if i'm not attracted i'll try to get as far as i can if he thinks i'm attracted to him... i hate the ackwardness of saying, "no thank you."...

i know it's very confusing... if i think about it it's confusing... i would say that i'm a people person... some say i'm a flirt... rule of thumb with me... unless i really know him... i'm not laughing and giggling with a dude off top that i'm not familiar with... he's just cool... now the dude i'm attracted to... i prolly wont' say hardly anything to him... backasswards i am...

now i'm wondering do men have body language... i don't know about men using subtle hints... like yesterday i was out to lunch with a friend and the manager of the establishment kept trying to get my attention... lol.. i almost died laughing... i kept looking up and he was looking at me... i dont' care what direction i faced... lol... now if that's subtle knock me over with a feather stick... lol

LOL Softly, that was funny!

I guess we men aren't as sublte as ladies, because we don't have to be, but if you see a brother fixing his pants up around the waist, gettin' that shirt tucked just so, or brushing that beard or mustache, that might mean he's sizing you up for the approach, ya know... That's kinda our little nervous ways to buy some time to think of something poetic to say... Maybe, I might sniff, and run my finger across my nose or mouth - ususally when I'm salivating after some fine sister(smile!)

But that eye contact is a mug... It's the ultimate body language... It's so powerful it's enough to knock you to your knees if you aren't careful... Whew, it just says to much about Mutual ATTRACTION, and the personality of an individual who looks boldly into the camera, so to speak... It says you got a lotta woman on your hands, man! Mama don't take no mess, and all she wants to do is ROCK!LOL! Naw, I just made that up, but if you believe it I got a island I'd like to sell ya...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Brother Sam, gotta tell you that it's situational, these events, and attempts to generalize them are not a good idea... I remember reading Julius Fast's book, entitled BODY LANGUAGE, many, many years ago, and he spoke of BODY LANGUAGE in tems of clusters of movements in various social situations... But he generalized certain movements like, for example, the crossing of the legs TOWARD another person to lock them into a convo, and those facing the other direction would effectively be locked out... He spoke of the opened and closed positon of the arms and the legs as symbolic of a mind opened or closed to approach and conversation... He spoke of the outstretched arms, in their context, as meaning sincerity or frustration...

With women, I have found that their eyes tell major stories, and women know that, which is why they will do whatever it take to avert their eyes from the gaze of a man... Eye Contact and a smile, I have personally found, opens the door to approach, though they may not guarantee the result one might want - unless a little conversation is all one wants... That aint bad either, because a little leads to a lot sometimes... I have found the whole thing about clusters to be true, as well, because if woman has looked at a man, and seen what she likes, she will send signals for him to approach... Part of that cluster can mean that she literally turns her back on you, and waits for you to do what a man is "supposed" to do...

Sam, yes, sisters have cursed me out, rolled over my foot with heavy carts, actually stepped on my foot with thier heels, and when I was a kid(like 12 years old)a young sister in my class grabbed my knit cap, and threw it down the hall, and laughed(smile!) Now, as a hothead kid, I wanted to do her bodily harm, but since she was a girl, I went and tried to pick up my hat...but she beat me to the punch, and ran off with my hat again... And sister was pretty fast... So when I caught up to her, I literally was hugging the sister trying to retrieve that hat as she held it away from me... The touch, the feel of her heaving chest, out of breath, then the eye contact...wow, the light bulb came on in me, and I didn't really care about my hat in anymore... Her smile caused me to smile, almost chemically... I think THAT incident was my first lesson in the way females use body language, and alternative means to attract a male...

Sam, part of communication with women is in knowing how to read the unspoken stuff... It informs you on how fast or slow you can move, whether she's feeling a level of affection for you or not... I mean, if she walks pretty close to you, or aggressively/assertively touches you, or isn't offended by an accidental touching of her person... That means she may be comfortable with you, at ease in your presence... All that having been said, the eyes say a lot to, and about, women... Those are the windows of our souls... Pay close attention, and you cannot lose in terms of understanding whom you're dealing with...my humble philosoph...


Peace!
Isaiah
I know it was not directed at me,but this helps explain the current situation I am in right now with a certain woman,thank you SOO much.

I speak to a lot of people on a daily basis... Hey I'm southern... It's just what we do... BUT.... I rarely look a man in the eye for more than a spilt second if I want to just go on about my merry little way. So I'm with you on eye contact (prolonged) or many quick glances and a smile goes a long way. I would also argue that when a woman is attracted to a man she will find reasons/excuses to touch him;reapeated touching can only mean one thing--attraction... that's if they are already engaging in dialogue. she's ask open ended questions that require more than a yes/no response... if the answers are cut and dry she'll hang about during that ackward moment of silence cause she doesn't want to leave but doesn't really know what to say.... if she' on the opposite side of the room she'll move close enough to you so that she can easily see you and you see her... if there is a place where she has the advantage she will choose that spot first... i forgot we were talking about body language... lol... okay... fidgeting is a sign of attraction... well with me... after i get that first glance or feeling that i may want to explore something with said man then i try hard not to look at him.... which is the same thing i do when i am not attracted to a man... however... if i'm not attracted i'll try to get as far as i can if he thinks i'm attracted to him... i hate the ackwardness of saying, "no thank you."...

i know it's very confusing... if i think about it it's confusing... i would say that i'm a people person... some say i'm a flirt... rule of thumb with me... unless i really know him... i'm not laughing and giggling with a dude off top that i'm not familiar with... he's just cool... now the dude i'm attracted to... i prolly wont' say hardly anything to him... backasswards i am...

now i'm wondering do men have body language... i don't know about men using subtle hints... like yesterday i was out to lunch with a friend and the manager of the establishment kept trying to get my attention... lol.. i almost died laughing... i kept looking up and he was looking at me... i dont' care what direction i faced... lol... now if that's subtle knock me over with a feather stick... lol

I agree, looking into a persons eyes doesn't necessarily equate an attraction. I hardly look anyone in the eyes, and if I do, It's because my eyes happened to land in your direction. I don't do a lot of talking in public, so avoiding eye contact is a must sometimes. If I comment on how nice your ride is, It means that, nothing more nothing less. If I want to flirt, I'll do it directly. To each her own:kiss:

I agree, looking into a persons eyes doesn't necessarily equate an attraction. I hardly look anyone in the eyes, and if I do, It's because my eyes happened to land in your direction. I don't do a lot of talking in public, so avoiding eye contact is a must sometimes. If I comment on how nice your ride is, It means that, nothing more nothing less. If I want to flirt, I'll do it directly. To each her own:kiss:


While it is true that "looking into a person's eyes doesn't necessarily equate and attraction" from my experience since a lot of women avoid looking directly into a brother's eyes many times because they are sizing him up other ways or walking with their head down avoiding contact i have found that the women who were most interested in me had a way of looking directly at me and as I have gotten older this has become my "first line" of contact. What I also have found is that several women who I have been intimate with the first compliment to me had something to do with MY eyes...

From the women I have met so far in texas one basic difference from the woemn in cali is that "flirting" is a major part of the culture and these texas woemn have a way of looking at a brother with a smile that i cant explain. and its not "fake" as some have suggested...

when i was younger i was kinda shy and used to hardly look at folks directly eye-to-eye but my parents got me to change that. so much to the point that i had white teachers and supervisors later in life that would view me as having an attitude because i would look at them squarely whenever they spoke to me...

i have come to view other forms of body language at times to be rather confusing as women at times have given me mixed signals and im still a little slow in figuring things out....

but its something about that eye contact that rocks my world!

now there is something known as the "closed stance" and the "open stance"...just like in golf...sometimes i will adjust my body positioning to test a woman and have found that if my body position was "open" when we started speaking up close and and I changed to a "closed" position, if she responds accordingly, then even if ther is some mutual attraction its not "magnetic"...however....if I closed my position and a women got closer to the point of getting me to "open up' that was a definite sign that she is interested, even if i might not be attracted to her physically.....but if she is still engaging me in discussion it also means there is something about her that is holding my attention and ironically, these are the encounters which usually lead to some type of furutre relationship, even if it is just a friendship...because we make some kind of intellectual or spiritual connection...

this leads me back to the other forum about "approaching women"...in which i stated i do not approach women but put myself in situations where they approach me....let me just say that was a general statement and there obviously are exceptions to the rule...for me it takes more than "a big butt and a smile"...for me the eyes truly are the way to the soul...a lot of women have walked passed me and literally put their behinds in my face and i let them go by without a second look....but even more have gotten my attention when walking by and turning and giving me that special look...( i mean really...especially these days i spend so much time at the gym that i have learned to use some visual restraint...)lol!

While it is true that "looking into a person's eyes doesn't necessarily equate and attraction" from my experience since a lot of women avoid looking directly into a brother's eyes many times because they are sizing him up other ways or walking with their head down avoiding contact i have found that the women who were most interested in me had a way of looking directly at me and as I have gotten older this has become my "first line" of contact. What I also have found is that several women who I have been intimate with the first compliment to me had something to do with MY eyes...

From the women I have met so far in texas one basic difference from the woemn in cali is that "flirting" is a major part of the culture and these texas woemn have a way of looking at a brother with a smile that i cant explain. and its not "fake" as some have suggested...

when i was younger i was kinda shy and used to hardly look at folks directly eye-to-eye but my parents got me to change that. so much to the point that i had white teachers and supervisors later in life that would view me as having an attitude because i would look at them squarely whenever they spoke to me...

i have come to view other forms of body language at times to be rather confusing as women at times have given me mixed signals and im still a little slow in figuring things out....

but its something about that eye contact that rocks my world!

now there is something known as the "closed stance" and the "open stance"...just like in golf...sometimes i will adjust my body positioning to test a woman and have found that if my body position was "open" when we started speaking up close and and I changed to a "closed" position, if she responds accordingly, then even if ther is some mutual attraction its not "magnetic"...however....if I closed my position and a women got closer to the point of getting me to "open up' that was a definite sign that she is interested, even if i might not be attracted to her physically.....but if she is still engaging me in discussion it also means there is something about her that is holding my attention and ironically, these are the encounters which usually lead to some type of furutre relationship, even if it is just a friendship...because we make some kind of intellectual or spiritual connection...

this leads me back to the other forum about "approaching women"...in which i stated i do not approach women but put myself in situations where they approach me....let me just say that was a general statement and there obviously are exceptions to the rule...for me it takes more than "a big butt and a smile"...for me the eyes truly are the way to the soul...a lot of women have walked passed me and literally put their behinds in my face and i let them go by without a second look....but even more have gotten my attention when walking by and turning and giving me that special look...( i mean really...especially these days i spend so much time at the gym that i have learned to use some visual restraint...)lol!

Brother Omowale, this is truly an excellent post!

And it reinforced what I was TRYING to convey... In fact, it cut right to the core of it... Particularly your opening remarks to our sister Spicy Brownskin(smile!) If that Eye Contact aint no biggie, then why would a woman - even a little girl - avoid it so tough??? Right On THE MONEY! And I loved it, because here we have some more of that old female misdirection piece, but we aint 17 no more... We 30 years older, and have enuff experience to have proven what we say by our experience!LOL! Right on point, bruh!

And, yes, that eye contact - prolonged, as it were - is a very potent indicator of attractionto both parties ... It is indisputably something people in all societies regard as a no-no if they don't want to get caught up... It's a human thing, not a black females-excluded pieceLOL! So don't go there, sister Spicy Brown(smile!)

Also, O, your points about the Open/Close attraction/magnetism aspect of conversing with women, and even men, is a powerful observation on your part... In fact, humans communicate in Body Language in ways that are so purely unconscious that when it is verbalized, folk really don't understand what is being said unless they are truly conscious that such a thing exists... This discussion is getting interesting, and I'm all ears to folks conscious experiences with this... It happens all too often in our world for us to be denying it's existence... Y'all ever hear of a COLD SHOULDER, an EVIL EYE, a TIGHT JAW, the LOOK OF LOVE??? What do these things mean???

Peace!
Isaiah

Brother Omowale, this is truly an excellent post!

And it reinforced what I was TRYING to convey... In fact, it cut right to the core of it... Particularly your opening remarks to our sister Spicy Brownskin(smile!) If that Eye Contact aint no biggie, then why would a woman - even a little girl - avoid it so tough??? Right On THE MONEY! And I loved it, because here we have some more of that old female misdirection piece, but we aint 17 no more... We 30 years older, and have enuff experience to have proven what we say by our experience!LOL! Right on point, bruh!

And, yes, that eye contact - prolonged, as it were - is a very potent indicator of attractionto both parties ... It is indisputably something people in all societies regard as a no-no if they don't want to get caught up... It's a human thing, not a black females-excluded pieceLOL! So don't go there, sister Spicy Brown(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah


True indeed. The purpose of this thread is to help us, the uninitiated, gain an understanding of what to go by, for the purpose of avoiding the pitfalls and heartache that is caused by our lack of knowing.

I've always thought that eye-contact was the most important thing as well, for all the reasons that have been stated here.

I could be wrong, but it always seems like women don't want us as men to know what's going on. It always seems like some unspoken code that would be broken--the penalty for which is "death"--if a woman divulges how she and other women operate on a primal level. It seems like some enigma that must be solved, instead of something that would create a greater understanding, thereby bringing the sexes closer together. Instead, the lack of sharing only creates a greater rift.

Women want men to be direct and straightforward with their intentions, but they as women are anything but.

Straightforwardness begets more straightforwardness.

I've read alot of those "body language" books, but the info seems extremely impractical, especially since it seems that women by and large are always switching up the criteria, almost on a daily basis.

Most women I encounter don't speak to me, so what choice to I have, but to think that the few who do speak to me are interested in me? But lo and alas, that doesn't seem to be the case either, since I've been told more than once "I was just speaking, is all".

It's really frustrating, because none of it seems to be based on honesty. The more understanding I seek on this matter, the less I end up having.

:bye:

PEACE

While it is true that "looking into a person's eyes doesn't necessarily equate and attraction" from my experience since a lot of women avoid looking directly into a brother's eyes many times because they are sizing him up other ways or walking with their head down avoiding contact i have found that the women who were most interested in me had a way of looking directly at me and as I have gotten older this has become my "first line" of contact. What I also have found is that several women who I have been intimate with the first compliment to me had something to do with MY eyes...

From the women I have met so far in texas one basic difference from the woemn in cali is that "flirting" is a major part of the culture and these texas woemn have a way of looking at a brother with a smile that i cant explain. and its not "fake" as some have suggested...

when i was younger i was kinda shy and used to hardly look at folks directly eye-to-eye but my parents got me to change that. so much to the point that i had white teachers and supervisors later in life that would view me as having an attitude because i would look at them squarely whenever they spoke to me...

i have come to view other forms of body language at times to be rather confusing as women at times have given me mixed signals and im still a little slow in figuring things out....

but its something about that eye contact that rocks my world!

now there is something known as the "closed stance" and the "open stance"...just like in golf...sometimes i will adjust my body positioning to test a woman and have found that if my body position was "open" when we started speaking up close and and I changed to a "closed" position, if she responds accordingly, then even if ther is some mutual attraction its not "magnetic"...however....if I closed my position and a women got closer to the point of getting me to "open up' that was a definite sign that she is interested, even if i might not be attracted to her physically.....but if she is still engaging me in discussion it also means there is something about her that is holding my attention and ironically, these are the encounters which usually lead to some type of furutre relationship, even if it is just a friendship...because we make some kind of intellectual or spiritual connection...

this leads me back to the other forum about "approaching women"...in which i stated i do not approach women but put myself in situations where they approach me....let me just say that was a general statement and there obviously are exceptions to the rule...for me it takes more than "a big butt and a smile"...for me the eyes truly are the way to the soul...a lot of women have walked passed me and literally put their behinds in my face and i let them go by without a second look....but even more have gotten my attention when walking by and turning and giving me that special look...( i mean really...especially these days i spend so much time at the gym that i have learned to use some visual restraint...)lol!

Well maybe my avoidance of eye contact stems from harsh experiences having converstaions with whites, where they stare at you in a zombie-like manner and don't bother blinking. Ugh.

I mean am I supposed to flat out ignore a brother when/if he speaks? No. Most of the time they say hello and ZOOM on by, I speak back and it's like I'm speaking to myself.....how embarrassing.

LOL. I don't even turn around to notice if they give the Hollywood 'special look'. Been there done that. They won't let you go on about your business without holding a 15 min. convo. I just told you......I got a jigga! Hate to use those words, but sometimes if they sense a lil' she-thug in you, they'll leave.:lol:

I just wear my shades to avoid all of that, from anybody.:shades:

Brotha Zay,

I know you specifically asked for input from men, but I'd like to offer my perspective on the matter.

I agree that eye contact can be important communication between a man and a woman. I, for one, find it exhilarating and flattering when I get that direct stare into my eyes. But I also find it intimidating, so I usually shift my gaze right away, whether I'm interested or not. Then, if I am interested, I'll try to sneak a few more glances when I think the brotha is not looking. LOL! Writing it makes me see that it truly is a game that we play, but I can't help it--I know for me, it is fear of rejection.

What I would recommend in my case is for a Brotha to not give up on the first few tries to make eye contact--maybe add a slight smile on the second attempt. If the Sista still shifts her gaze after the smile, and does not look your way again, I'd say let it go. But if you catch her checkin you out on the sneak, or whispering something to one of her nearby girls, I'd say go for it! :)

I hope this helps, and that I have not intruded on your convo.

Peace, Fam


aglo, I for one thank you for your input. Perhaps it may benefit someone here. You mention something here which helps me, "But I find it intimidating, so I usually shift my gaze right away, whether I'm interested or not."

And this is EXACTLY what I meant by "mixed signals" but in my case it has not translated into a situation where I falsely assumed that a woman was interested. Moreso, it tends to give me the impression she is not really interested but time again has later proven that she actually was and was waiting for ME to "make the first move"...SOMETHING WHICH I SELDOM DO....why?...Because I have actually had women tell me that they found me "intimidating"...whether it be my presence...my demeanor..my intellect....usually what it ultimately came down to was I was letting them know...using the "silent treatment"...the special "gaze"...that let them know I was digging on them but was also giving them the opportunity to approach me FIRST...and perhaps I have become spoiled because since high school this approach has worked for me..and as I have gotten older I have found myself attracting younger women who are not afraid to be "assertive"...You see, I have NEVER been intimidated by women who wer assertive, honest and straightforward...and likewise...women I have been involved with can easily read when I am "beating around the bush" because that's when I tend to stumble over some of my words and look away when talking to them...

"If the Sista still shifts her gaze after the smile, and does not look your way again, I'd say let it go."

Well, I don't give up so easily because then while she may avoid DIRECT eye contact, then I have to resort to checking out her other body language....if seh appears fidgety then perhaps I would let it go because she seems uncomfortable or disinterested...but this can be a tricky read because if she has shifted her body position into my direction then she may actully be "feeling me"and this is when I may then go into what appears to be "ignore mode", casually shift my own position and see if seh "moves with me" or reacts...and I have a way of knowing without even looking at her...

Well maybe my avoidance of eye contact stems from harsh experiences having converstaions with whites, where they stare at you in a zombie-like manner and don't bother blinking. Ugh.

I mean am I supposed to flat out ignore a brother when/if he speaks? No. Most of the time they say hello and ZOOM on by, I speak back and it's like I'm speaking to myself.....how embarrassing.

LOL. I don't even turn around to notice if they give the Hollywood 'special look'. Been there done that. They won't let you go on about your business without holding a 15 min. convo. I just told you......I got a jigga! Hate to use those words, but sometimes if they sense a lil' she-thug in you, they'll leave.:lol:

I just wear my shades to avoid all of that, from anybody.:shades:

"I just wear my shades to avoid all of that, from anybody."

Now this is intesting because I tend to wear shades quite a bit because my eyes are light sensitive but even then I have encountered women who would take notice even more as I have had many casually say "Nice shades"...and the irony is this has often led to me taking them off and then they were hooked once "looking into my eyes"...lol!

As far as the "Hollywood special" look...this is another tricky one because I have gotten to the point that unless I encounter a woman that really makes an impression on me simply passing by if I am not in a social situation that I am likely to run into her again I find myself using restraint and not bothering to catch her "backside"...But if our eyes do meet first and neither one of us speaks...she may be the exception where I will give her that look....and oftentimes I will find that she will turn and check me out as well....the thing is I NEVER run a sista down in this kinda situation....I might actually stop, take a seat and see where exactly she goes....and i take note of the time...lol!!

this has especially worked for me during my many incarnations as a college student...and I dont stalk women...I just put myself in a position where they notice me more....how can this not work when brothers are so underrepresented among the population...?!

True indeed. The purpose of this thread is to help us, the uninitiated, gain an understanding of what to go by, for the purpose of avoiding the pitfalls and heartache that is caused by our lack of knowing.

I've always thought that eye-contact was the most important thing as well, for all the reasons that have been stated here.

I could be wrong, but it always seems like women don't want us as men to know what's going on. It always seems like some unspoken code that would be broken--the penalty for which is "death"--if a woman divulges how she and other women operate on a primal level. It seems like some enigma that must be solved, instead of something that would create a greater understanding, thereby bringing the sexes closer together. Instead, the lack of sharing only creates a greater rift.

Women want men to be direct and straightforward with their intentions, but they as women are anything but.

Straightforwardness begets more straightforwardness.

I've read alot of those "body language" books, but the info seems extremely impractical, especially since it seems that women by and large are always switching up the criteria, almost on a daily basis.

Most women I encounter don't speak to me, so what choice to I have, but to think that the few who do speak to me are interested in me? But lo and alas, that doesn't seem to be the case either, since I've been told more than once "I was just speaking, is all".

It's really frustrating, because none of it seems to be based on honesty. The more understanding I seek on this matter, the less I end up having.

:bye:

PEACE


"Women want men to be direct and straightforward with their intentions, but they as women are anything but."

Since it seems that "women by and large are always switching up the criteria" that is even more the reason to have your own gameplan and play by your own set of rules and stick to it. Relationships dont last very long in my experience. A few weeks to 7 months at the most. With about 3 exceptions in my lifetime. Why? Because women will go along with "my style" short term then try to switch me up. To play by another set of rules. But at the same time they complain about Black men not having any "STANDARDS"...

Like I said, I have played by the same rules since the age of 17. I am not the most sexually experienced brotha but I have had thousands of female "friends", coworkers and classmates and always have been rather selective in who and how I involve myself. My problem is NOT an inability to find women to 'date"..I'm just not interested in that "game"..Most of my "friends" are women and I enjoy their company...hanging out....partying...etc. without the stress or role-playing that 'dating" involves so i find myself situations where I can relax more freely and enjoy a woman's company in a context where she also is more relaxed...I have actually become more sexually involved in these kinda situations where things just kinda happen, when a woman has gotten to really know me on a platonic basis, when also she has learned how to "README"...this approach may not work for others but it has worked for me and it has led to a healthier lifestyle free from a lot of drama and stress...

Brother Samurai, you know I agree and empathize with a lot of what you relate but the longer i live here in the "South" the more I find that some of the problems we encounter are due to regional differences. With this said, I was just wondering if you have spent any time in Florida...I have not been in some time but have been developing a network in Miami/South Beach related to the music industry, mostly through the internet...the area is a "magnet" for a large number of Black women...I'm probably gonna spend a few weeks there this summer after visiting my daughter in ATL....It's just a thought....I encourage you not to give up as frustrating as things are...I dont really know your age but perhaps you may wanna evaluate closer the age range you are "seeking"...lol!...I guess i'm getting that 'dirty old man" syndrome but I still use the "Half Plus 7" formula and have found that it makes sense because most of the women who express interest in me typically fall into that age range +-3 years...

I'm 44 but I tend to attract attention from younger men moreso than men around my age. For ex. I was at a department store last week and one of the guys at the register who looked like he was about 30 kept staring at me. I could feel his eyes on me, and I was nervous, mainly because I'm just getting back into dating, but also because I haven't decided whether I want to go there with someone who's that much younger, cause what would I do with a 30-year old? LOL!!

Anyway, I finally looked directly at him and flashed him a smile and he was smiling his most dazzling smile. Well, it was either do or die at that point, so I guess I died because I picked up my sales slip and walked away. I could feel him watching me as I left. Sometimes, at a point like that, you're not sure how to move it smoothly from that point to where you want it to go.

LOL!

Brotha O,

Thank you for the insight! I never knew Brothas put so much thought into this. It's funny, because when I look back on meeting/flirting situations I've participated in, I now realize how some of the things that happened (for example, seeing him again the next day at an opportune moment) were not coincidence.

How cute! :)

-Aglo

LOL!

You're welcome...Me...I don't believe in "coincidence" as I do "circumstance"...People generally tend to follow "patterns" and the key many times is getting to know someones pattern even before getting to know them...lol!!

One thing for sure...in the situation you describe...it means that you BOTH took notice of each other!!

You know how some folks say "Opportunity knocks once in a lifetime"..??

Well, what do you do if "opportunity" presents itself to you more than once??

Do you just "keep on passing Me by"??

Well, if the guy appears to be stalKing then yes...avoid him...lol!!

You know its like this....I have found that at the gym some women will check me out without letting me know they are checking me out....and i will glance at them and they will immediately turn away......but oftentimes I will then later be at a weight machine and look up and find them going out of their way to get my attention...but I NEVER initiate conversation when working out....NEVER....and I tend to change the times of the day when i workout...that way I dont fall into a set pattern...but know what I notice...

After a while, some women will seem to speak to me out of the blue when "passing by" and I have to think where I know them from....and really, in all honesty, white women are good at this one...

What is does for me is let a woman know that even though she has caught my attention my primary reason for being at the gym is the same as it was when i was 17.....working out...conditioning...and I am not there chasing women...

Now, after a while the usual effect of this is that women who "see me" on a regular basis will often walk by and STARE DIRECTLY AT ME AND LOOK ME IN THE EYE SQUARELY to make sure they get my attention.....

now the problem for me is staying focused on my work out...:jumping:

I'm 44 but I tend to attract attention from younger men moreso than men around my age. For ex. I was at a department store last week and one of the guys at the register who looked like he was about 30 kept staring at me. I could feel his eyes on me, and I was nervous, mainly because I'm just getting back into dating, but also because I haven't decided whether I want to go there with someone who's that much younger, cause what would I do with a 30-year old? LOL!!

Anyway, I finally looked directly at him and flashed him a smile and he was smiling his most dazzling smile. Well, it was either do or die at that point, so I guess I died because I picked up my sales slip and walked away. I could feel him watching me as I left. Sometimes, at a point like that, you're not sure how to move it smoothly from that point to where you want it to go.


Okay, using my "Half Plus 7" formula +- 3 years that means if he was between 26 to 32 he is an "ideal age" for you. I know that's probably difficult to percieve but this is an example of what I'm talking about...perhaps you could do a LOT MORE with a 30 year old than a Brother like me (age 48)...lol!!

"Sometimes, at a point like that, you're not sure how to move it smoothly from that point to where you want it to go."

Perhaps it may not be meant to go smoothly and you are set on being in a "comfort zoen" that maybe you need to get out of for the moment and let things happen naturally and see where they go...

let me share this with you.....I was stuck in a "confort zone" most of the last 10 years after ending a rather sexually potent, short term relationship in 1995...this relationship was so strong that it scared me and I had to let it go...then found myself gradually in a numer of other short term relationships up until april of last year....then I realized I had become set in too many ways....the women I was involved with ranged from 26 to 35....I was interested in a few older women but the one's who expressed most interest in me tended to be younger....and since I was a teacher I just tended to relate well to younger women...not that this was particularly my choice....it just is something that is part of "natural selection"...and its something my dad passed along to me 15 years ago before he passed....

So my point here is that I quit my job...sold my condo...and shocked my family by moving to hot *** texas...uprooting myself....getting away from the failed relationships and "friendship" that either I had become to take for granted, or that had taken me for granted....and getting out of the "comfort zone" was the best move in my life....even if later I go bankrupt and have to move back to Cali because of the low paying job situation here....but for once in my life I am learning to LIVE by my own set of rules, but with respect to family and community....but I answer only to MY SELF...and the irony is that it seems that now ALL the attention I get is from women younger than myself...and instead of trying to rationalize it, make sense of it, or fight against it, I am learning to just let thing happen naturally so long as they are legal age!! lol!!

And even with diabetes, hypertention and a weight "problem" I am in better mental and physical health than I have been in a very long time....and finding myself in a new "comfort zone" but it's one that is not necessarily "settled" but continually open to change....

what I am suggesting is perhaps some of us need to get out more..interact with folks more....and LIVE....and disregard some of these established "rules of conduct" in how we deal with each other...cuz face it....some things for US JUST AINT WORKING!!

ONE LOVE,
Omowale..

what I am suggesting is perhaps some of us need to get out more..interact with folks more....and LIVE....and disregard some of these established "rules of conduct" in how we deal with each other...cuz face it....some things for US JUST AINT WORKING!!

ONE LOVE,
Omowale..

Brother O, Great advice. Thanks. I'm surely going to keep it in mind. I do need to get out more.

Brother O, Great advice. Thanks. I'm surely going to keep it in mind. I do need to get out more.


Sister Bisabee, You are welcome! An yes, do get out more and enjoy life. Throw some of the "conventional wisdom" out the window and don't trip on trying to be "PC"..lol!

remember, even the Bible states "the wisdom of this world is folly"..that is to say, foolishness....

Do your thang and have no regrets in doing so...

One Love,
Omowale!

Brother Samurai, you know I agree and empathize with a lot of what you relate but the longer i live here in the "South" the more I find that some of the problems we encounter are due to regional differences. With this said, I was just wondering if you have spent any time in Florida...I have not been in some time but have been developing a network in Miami/South Beach related to the music industry, mostly through the internet...the area is a "magnet" for a large number of Black women...I'm probably gonna spend a few weeks there this summer after visiting my daughter in ATL....It's just a thought....I encourage you not to give up as frustrating as things are...I dont really know your age but perhaps you may wanna evaluate closer the age range you are "seeking"...lol!...I guess i'm getting that 'dirty old man" syndrome but I still use the "Half Plus 7" formula and have found that it makes sense because most of the women who express interest in me typically fall into that age range +-3 years...

Peace Brother O:

I'm currently 34 years old.

I do agree with you, in that I feel that alot of my issues are regional in nature. My being from NY, with a Caribbean background makes it extremely difficult to adapt to the Southern Lifestyle.

I haven't tried FL, mainly because that would take me further into the South than I would really like to go. However, from my research, there aren't many Metropolitan areas there (in the Northern sense), outside of Miami.

Plus, it's far too hot, and I like cooler climates (i.e. the North). That's why Chicago is going to be my next stop.

From what I've been hearing though, FL seems like it's the "new ATL"; "the place" that Black people are wanting to migrate to, for no real apparent reason.

I appreciate your suggestion, but no, that area's not for me.

As to the "half the age plus 7".......Trust me, I've tried that. That puts the women in the roughly mid-20's range, and they are nearly as bad as young girls in their late teens.

I mostly prefer women in my age range, up to about the mid 40's. They tend to be emotionally stable, financially accomplished, and know what they want from their lives and the men they involved themselves with.

The problem with them, that I've encountered in this region, is that many of them are afraid to deal with a man that is younger than them (ala BISABEE's statement).

I've found that younger man/older woman relationships can be the most fulfilling; she can offer him the emotional stability and wisdom that many younger woman can't, and he can offer her the physical protection, new intellect, and sexual gratification that many older men can't.

However, it's been my experience, that because of the so-called "traditional values" of the South, many people on both sides are afraid to give such a scenario a chance.

Speaking of which:

I'm 44 but I tend to attract attention from younger men moreso than men around my age. For ex. I was at a department store last week and one of the guys at the register who looked like he was about 30 kept staring at me. I could feel his eyes on me, and I was nervous, mainly because I'm just getting back into dating, but also because I haven't decided whether I want to go there with someone who's that much younger, cause what would I do with a 30-year old? LOL!!

Anyway, I finally looked directly at him and flashed him a smile and he was smiling his most dazzling smile. Well, it was either do or die at that point, so I guess I died because I picked up my sales slip and walked away. I could feel him watching me as I left. Sometimes, at a point like that, you're not sure how to move it smoothly from that point to where you want it to go.

Not only do I co-sign Brother O's advice, but I can also attest to the fact that your young suitor was probably just as nervous as you were, and was no doubt looking for you, whom most would think that as the older person, would have the most experience in that scenario, to lead the situation to your liking, if not make the first move yourself.

Younger men are always at a loss, as to how to approach older women. None of us want to hear: "Boy, do you know I'm old enough to be your mama/aunt?" No man likes rejection, but a rejection of that sort hits harder, because it makes us feel bad, like we had no business liking you to start with, and that we should just "stay in our lane" with girls (<==emphasis) our own age.

cause what would I do with a 30-year old? LOL!!

You would do the very same thing you would do with a man your age: you would love, respect, and honor him, as you would expect him to do for/with you.

PEACE

Brother O, you are making so many salient points in your posts I don't even know where to start quoting you... I am finding your "clinic" here, thoroughly enjoyable(smile!)

In particular, your admission about CLOCKIN' sistersLOL! Hey, what brother hasn't done that???!LOL Like "if she passes by here same time tomorrow, she gone get scooped like ice cream..." LOL! Even now, I find myself catching my train at a certain time so that I can catch a particular professor at the college... Since we recently had spring break, I didn't see her for about two weeks, but I was ready when she made her appearance, and so was she!!!LOL! But, of course, I am NOT READY for no relationships right now - not even a quickie... I just don't have the time, nor the real energy it requires to do it up right... At least I'm honest(smile!)

Peace!
isaiah

You would do the very same thing you would do with a man your age: you would love, respect, and honor him, as you would expect him to do for/with you.

PEACE

One of the obvious reasons :book: why a woman in her 40s, from anywhere, would not want to get involved with a much younger man is that she does not want to have more children, whereas a 30 year old man may want to "start a family" if they have a full-blown, lasting relationship. She may not want to start having babies and raising children all over again. This certainly applies to me.

Now back to the thread topic.

Peace Brother O:

I'm currently 34 years old.

I do agree with you, in that I feel that alot of my issues are regional in nature. My being from NY, with a Caribbean background makes it extremely difficult to adapt to the Southern Lifestyle.

I haven't tried FL, mainly because that would take me further into the South than I would really like to go. However, from my research, there aren't many Metropolitan areas there (in the Northern sense), outside of Miami.

Plus, it's far too hot, and I like cooler climates (i.e. the North). That's why Chicago is going to be my next stop.

From what I've been hearing though, FL seems like it's the "new ATL"; "the place" that Black people are wanting to migrate to, for no real apparent reason.

I appreciate your suggestion, but no, that area's not for me.

As to the "half the age plus 7".......Trust me, I've tried that. That puts the women in the roughly mid-20's range, and they are nearly as bad as young girls in their late teens.

I mostly prefer women in my age range, up to about the mid 40's. They tend to be emotionally stable, financially accomplished, and know what they want from their lives and the men they involved themselves with.

The problem with them, that I've encountered in this region, is that many of them are afraid to deal with a man that is younger than them (ala BISABEE's statement).

I've found that younger man/older woman relationships can be the most fulfilling; she can offer him the emotional stability and wisdom that many younger woman can't, and he can offer her the physical protection, new intellect, and sexual gratification that many older men can't.

However, it's been my experience, that because of the so-called "traditional values" of the South, many people on both sides are afraid to give such a scenario a chance.

Speaking of which:



Not only do I co-sign Brother O's advice, but I can also attest to the fact that your young suitor was probably just as nervous as you were, and was no doubt looking for you, whom most would think that as the older person, would have the most experience in that scenario, to lead the situation to your liking, if not make the first move yourself.

Younger men are always at a loss, as to how to approach older women. None of us want to hear: "Boy, do you know I'm old enough to be your mama/aunt?" No man likes rejection, but a rejection of that sort hits harder, because it makes us feel bad, like we had no business liking you to start with, and that we should just "stay in our lane" with girls (<==emphasis) our own age.



You would do the very same thing you would do with a man your age: you would love, respect, and honor him, as you would expect him to do for/with you.

PEACE
Ok brother I hear you and I understand. Let me just say that there are more Blacks moving to places such as Orlando, Tampa and Ft. Lauderdale because of affordable real estate and growing employment opportunities. And ironically, there are older Black women there who are starting second careers...as Florida is also a prime retirement spot..for folks used to the beaches in Cali, Florida is cleaner with better health standards...

You see, myself, places like Chicago would be too cold and I do better in climate that are more humid and I love being near water...nothing to me better than that ocean air....pure oxygen at it's best...in fact, the only drawback for me is it is in hurricane alley...i'm not about to make an investment and have it easily wiped out...but thats a different topic...

One of the obvious reasons :book: why a woman in her 40s, from anywhere, would not want to get involved with a much younger man is that she does not want to have more children, whereas a 30 year old man may want to "start a family" if they have a full-blown, lasting relationship. She may not want to start having babies and raising children all over again. This certainly applies to me.

Now back to the thread topic.

I understand your concern; however, it should be known, that most yonger Brothers who opt to actively seek older women for themselves, are not all that concerned with having children. We know that women of age either cannot or simply do not wish to have any (or anymore), even for the reasons that you have stated.

This heavily applies to me; the older I get, the less concerned and less enthusiastic I am about siring offspring. I have my own personal reasons for that, but at the same time, I am not totally opposed to it.

If the woman I end up with (regardless of age) is vehement on having children, then that's fine--provided that we are both able to optimally able and prepared to do so, physically, mentally, emotionally, and most importantly financially.

If she's not, then I'm all the more fine with that as well.

There is more to relationships than having children. But ultimately, this is something that should be talked about amongst the couple.

However, it's nothing all that significant, to block one's blessing, if it comes one's way. :look:

PEACE

One of the obvious reasons :book: why a woman in her 40s, from anywhere, would not want to get involved with a much younger man is that she does not want to have more children, whereas a 30 year old man may want to "start a family" if they have a full-blown, lasting relationship. She may not want to start having babies and raising children all over again. This certainly applies to me.

Now back to the thread topic.


Sister, no disrespect but this is exactly why I dont buy into the "Black male shortage" argument. What happens is that over time Black men and women become more selective. And sometimes it is a matter of "choice" that results one doing without. Or you decide not to pla on what you may see as an uneven playing field..

The irony is that many "older men" are not looking within their own age group is because of what you stated, but with a twist. For example, my mother's father was 46 when she was born and her mother was 26. It was my grandma's first marrriage but grandpa's second...when I look within my own family I find that the men who are most satisfied in their relationships are those who are in their SECOND marriage. They decided they would be better off with younger women and raising their OWN children instead of dealing with women who had failed marriages and/or children out of wedlock...

In my situation, I am presently "on hold' becasue i want to at least wiat until my daughter gets through college before entertaining the possibility of either having more kids or raising O.P.P..lol

Genetics tells me that even at 48 I should be able to father more kids if that was my choice because many of the Elders before me did exactly that....but with younger women...

So my point is that for whatever reason you are excluding Brothers in their 30s, well...some of these younger men are in their prime and if they are looking to sisters in your age range and getting "no play"...where does that leave YOU??

Now this is where I have one difference in opinion from brother Samurai. I call it a difference not necessarily a disagreement. I dont necessarily find "older women" to be more emotionally stable, and I myself joke with women and warn them about my own emotional instability...I have found many "older women" to actually be rather hurt and jaded from their failed relationships...I find many of them to be bossy and tend to treat men in the same condescending manner that they are accustomed to treating their children....and despite a lot of the "strong, independent" persona...I also find older SINGLE Black women to project as if they got it going on financially but...no...part of the reason they are NOT looking at younger men is because they are looking more to men who are older and more financially secure to HELP THEM OUT....now, from MY experience (so dont get me wrong..im not generalizing but speaking subjectively from MY own experience)..I have been attracted by this "image" that has been projected only to find that much of it is a facade...

In fact, I find older women with kids to be more protective than younger women with kids and that in this protection they will actually hide some things about themselves and not be as open and honest about situations concerning their kids and their "baby daddys"...and it is this drama that I have no patience for...not at my expense...lol!!

Black men tend to be more set in their ways when they are younger and Black women tend to be more set when they are older. This is because Black women tend to mature at a younger age and reach their sexual peaks later in life while Black men reach their peaks earlier but spend so much time focusing on developing their sexual prowess that they tend to neglect financial and other responsibilities... Older Black men who manage to survive experience an opportunity, wheteher they exercise it or not, upon ultimatly reaching a level of economic stability and emotional maturity to then "rediscover" themselves but with a better economic situation than in their youth. This provides an opportunity to take new risks and to venture out of their confort zones and "experiment"....

And, back to the topic, in this 'experimentation" this is where I find that Black men and women have truly become "polar opposites" (now I know someones gonna disagree with this as when i mentioned it before) and as "opposties"...well...there is some truth to the statements that "opposites attract"...ever notice how all the so-called biblical "prophets" who had a covenant with god were polygamous and even thought they were warned and admonished concerning "strange wives" they tended to have more than one and often outside of their own "nationality"...

i thiink that it's because as some of us get older, no matter how much we tend to wanna stick to our respective 'race" and "age" groups...many times we have grown and no longer are "reading each other" and this is a natural "progression"...whether we like it or not, whether we adapt to it or die from failing to adapt..

Sister, no disrespect but this is exactly why I dont buy into the "Black male shortage" argument. What happens is that over time Black men and women become more selective. And sometimes it is a matter of "choice" that results one doing without. Or you decide not to pla on what you may see as an uneven playing field..



So my point is that for whatever reason you are excluding Brothers in their 30s, well...some of these younger men are in their prime and if they are looking to sisters in your age range and getting "no play"...where does that leave YOU??

...I have found many "older women" to actually be rather hurt and jaded from their failed relationships...

.I also find older SINGLE Black women to project as if they got it going on financially but...no...part of the reason they are NOT looking at younger men is because they are looking more to men who are older and more financially secure to HELP THEM OUT...


i thiink that it's because as some of us get older, no matter how much we tend to wanna stick to our respective 'race" and "age" groups...many times we have grown and no longer are "reading each other" and this is a natural "progression"...whether we like it or not, whether we adapt to it or die from failing to adapt..

Brother O, I'll just address a few of your points that spoke to me.

Re the "Black male shortage" I think there are definitely a lot fewer Black men nowadays who are looking for relationships than there were when I was, say, 25. I never heard older Black women say anything about a shortage then and neither was it written about, if you go back and look. Even Black men talk and write about the shortage these days and have done so for the past few years. There may not be much of a shortage number wise, as there is quality-wise in terms of men who want and are prepared for relationships--not just a few quickies or to be a woman's "Tuesday night man."

Also even young women in their 20s and 30s are finding it difficult to find men on their level who want relationships. When I was in my 20s, men were everywhere around and the men then had a lot more to offer. They didn't even dare try to talk to a woman without talking about how they were in college, trade school, or had a good job, or were trying to try to set up a business, or had some type of legitimate hustle going on,etc. According to some of the friends of my daughter and younger cousins, men will approach them with nothing to offer and become indignant when these young upwardly mobile women are not interested.

LOL! Re dating younger men, I assure you that I do know women my age who will date any age of man--younger, older, even senior citizens. I'm just getting back out into dating and such, and I'm just one woman. All Black women don't think like me.

Insofar as older women being hurt and jaded, I'm sure you realize that just as many men are the same way.

On the financial front, yes I'm selective there. I'm certainly not willing to be with a man who is a financial dependent. Remember, just like some younger women are looking for "sugar daddies," some younger men are looking for "sugar mommies" or are willing to be gigolos.

As for staying within age group and race, I would rather have a Black man of a certain quality within a certain age range.

I think the most thought-provoking 3 words in your post were the last 3 words: "failing to adapt." I've often thought that many of the various crises among Black people result from our failure to adapt to changed circumstances, and from reading extensively about nature, I've learned that organisms that fail to adapt, do not survive. Trust me, this will not be an individual failure on my part.

BROTHER O, excellent post!!

If you'll humor my thoughts:

Sister, no disrespect but this is exactly why I dont buy into the "Black male shortage" argument. What happens is that over time Black men and women become more selective. And sometimes it is a matter of "choice" that results one doing without. Or you decide not to pla on what you may see as an uneven playing field..

I agree, and this was my thought from the onset, after reading her statement.

I think the thing that holds most of us back from getting what we want out of life (barring external circumstances beyond our control), is fear.

Not only do we fear what would happen if we fail to achieve our heart's desire, but I think on some level, we fear what would happen if we do.

This is especially the case for Black people (both men and women); we seem to suffer from that whole notion of "fear of success.

Sister BISABEE's post reminded me of that point; I was trying my best to touch on this in my response, while still being tactful. However, your direct sentiment echoed what I was saying--at least in mind, if not in script.

The irony is that many "older men" are not looking within their own age group is because of what you stated, but with a twist.

I was also going to touch on this as well. Nearly every older Black man I know, is trying to run down behind a young skirt. Even my own father, after my mother returned to the Essence.....He's always inquiring about the younger women at his church.....Whenever the older women his age inquire about him, he will entertain them, but only for a short while.

This is a man, in his mid 70's, who has a host of health problems (cancer in remission, severe arthritis, hypertension, etc)....... Yet, he "dates" more women my ages, than I do--go figure.

And his health is another issue:

The older that men get--especially Black men, the worse off they are health-wise. Most Black men, having worked in physically stressful occupations for most of their lives (my father worked construction for 35 years; that's why I refused to do it, and opted for my mother's career legacy, in the healthcare field), and this physical stress tends to bring down the quality of their health considerably.

"Things" don't work as well as they used to, and even when it does, their stamina is never going to be up to par, in comparison to yester-year.

This is the expounded version of your point:

This is because Black women tend to mature at a younger age and reach their sexual peaks later in life while Black men reach their peaks earlier but spend so much time focusing on developing their sexual prowess that they tend to neglect financial and other responsibilities...

What sense does it make, for an older woman, at her sexual peak, to chase or wait around for a man her age--one who is not looking for a woman his age to begin with, and if he is, he may not possess the ability to satisfy her?

The goal with any relationship, is to seek out that exceptional partner (within realistic limits). But instead, people--especially women--have bought into the "male shortage" crisis, and seem to have adopted the resulting philosophy: "A piece of man is better than no man at all".

If a younger man is actively seeking out an older woman, then he should be seen as being exceptional from the very start; he already possess that "out-of-the-box" thinking, if he is going against social norms with respect to age. He must also already realize (or at least thinks) that he possesses some sort of quality(s) that an older woman would desire or appreciate in him.


For example, my mother's father was 46 when she was born and her mother was 26. It was my grandma's first marrriage but grandpa's second...when I look within my own family I find that the men who are most satisfied in their relationships are those who are in their SECOND marriage. They decided they would be better off with younger women and raising their OWN children instead of dealing with women who had failed marriages and/or children out of wedlock...

Interesting. :?:

My scenario was just the opposite: I was the product of an older mother and a younger father. My Mother (RIP) was 56 years old when she had me (that's right, that was NOT a typo, and you didn't read that wrong). My father was 14 years younger than she was.

I've always grown up around older people in general; all my cousins (mostly female) were usually older than me, and when I lived with my father, all of the people he brought around me (his work buddies, fellow Masons, etc) were obviously older, in his age range.

That's why I've always had a fascination and appreciation for older women.



So my point is that for whatever reason you are excluding Brothers in their 30s, well...some of these younger men are in their prime and if they are looking to sisters in your age range and getting "no play"...where does that leave YOU??

So very true. Which is why I stated that she might be "Blocking her Blessing".

Now this is where I have one difference in opinion from brother Samurai. I call it a difference not necessarily a disagreement. I dont necessarily find "older women" to be more emotionally stable, and I myself joke with women and warn them about my own emotional instability...I have found many "older women" to actually be rather hurt and jaded from their failed relationships...I find many of them to be bossy and tend to treat men in the same condescending manner that they are accustomed to treating their children....and despite a lot of the "strong, independent" persona...I also find older SINGLE Black women to project as if they got it going on financially but...no...part of the reason they are NOT looking at younger men is because they are looking more to men who are older and more financially secure to HELP THEM OUT....now, from MY experience (so dont get me wrong..im not generalizing but speaking subjectively from MY own experience)..I have been attracted by this "image" that has been projected only to find that much of it is a facade...

Don't get me wrong; I've experienced some similar scenarios with older women.

However, I tend to look for the "empty-nester" Sisters, those women whose children (if they even have any) have moved out and on. Many of the women that I encounter, simply want the companionship; they arleady have their own houses, education, and careers established (remember, I'm in a corporate environment, and I'm mostly around corporate women).

In fact, I find older women with kids to be more protective than younger women with kids and that in this protection they will actually hide some things about themselves and not be as open and honest about situations concerning their kids and their "baby daddys"...and it is this drama that I have no patience for...not at my expense...lol!!

True indeed, I feel you on this. These are the worst-case scenarios, that a Younger Brother has to watch out for--but that's no different from what any person should be doing.

Black men tend to be more set in their ways when they are younger and Black women tend to be more set when they are older. This is because Black women tend to mature at a younger age and reach their sexual peaks later in life while Black men reach their peaks earlier but spend so much time focusing on developing their sexual prowess that they tend to neglect financial and other responsibilities... Older Black men who manage to survive experience an opportunity, wheteher they exercise it or not, upon ultimatly reaching a level of economic stability and emotional maturity to then "rediscover" themselves but with a better economic situation than in their youth. This provides an opportunity to take new risks and to venture out of their confort zones and "experiment"....

Interesting perspective...... I'm wondering if I'll feel the same way, by the time I get that age--assuming I won't be involved with someone at that time.

And, back to the topic, in this 'experimentation" this is where I find that Black men and women have truly become "polar opposites" (now I know someones gonna disagree with this as when i mentioned it before) and as "opposties"...well...there is some truth to the statements that "opposites attract"...ever notice how all the so-called biblical "prophets" who had a covenant with god were polygamous and even thought they were warned and admonished concerning "strange wives" they tended to have more than one and often outside of their own "nationality"...

Interesting idea.......I'd like to explore of these Biblical indescripancies, especially as they apply to our view of how the Bible and religion forms ourvalues, especially as far as relationships are concerned.

i thiink that it's because as some of us get older, no matter how much we tend to wanna stick to our respective 'race" and "age" groups...many times we have grown and no longer are "reading each other" and this is a natural "progression"...whether we like it or not, whether we adapt to it or die from failing to adapt..


Hmm, this is deep......I'd like for you to expound upon this more; particularly in terms of how you think it might play out as far as our people are concerned.

PEACE

Brother O, I'll just address a few of your points that spoke to me.

Re the "Black male shortage" I think there are definitely a lot fewer Black men nowadays who are looking for relationships than there were when I was, say, 25. I never heard older Black women say anything about a shortage then and neither was it written about, if you go back and look. Even Black men talk and write about the shortage these days and have done so for the past few years. There may not be much of a shortage number wise, as there is quality-wise in terms of men who want and are prepared for relationships--not just a few quickies or to be a woman's "Tuesday night man."

Also even young women in their 20s and 30s are finding it difficult to find men on their level who want relationships. When I was in my 20s, men were everywhere around and the men then had a lot more to offer. They didn't even dare try to talk to a woman without talking about how they were in college, trade school, or had a good job, or were trying to try to set up a business, or had some type of legitimate hustle going on,etc. According to some of the friends of my daughter and younger cousins, men will approach them with nothing to offer and become indignant when these young upwardly mobile women are not interested.

LOL! Re dating younger men, I assure you that I do know women my age who will date any age of man--younger, older, even senior citizens. I'm just getting back out into dating and such, and I'm just one woman. All Black women don't think like me.

Insofar as older women being hurt and jaded, I'm sure you realize that just as many men are the same way.

On the financial front, yes I'm selective there. I'm certainly not willing to be with a man who is a financial dependent. Remember, just like some younger women are looking for "sugar daddies," some younger men are looking for "sugar mommies" or are willing to be gigolos.

As for staying within age group and race, I would rather have a Black man of a certain quality within a certain age range.

I think the most thought-provoking 3 words in your post were the last 3 words: "failing to adapt." I've often thought that many of the various crises among Black people result from our failure to adapt to changed circumstances, and from reading extensively about nature, I've learned that organisms that fail to adapt, do not survive. Trust me, this will not be an individual failure on my part.


Ok...I got you. On each and every point. valid. But what I dont understand is this. "Even Black men talk and write about the shortage these days and have done so for the past few years."

Who are these men talking about this shortage?

Admittedly I am very suspect about what I "read" these days and often find that my own experience is contrary to what I "read". And I also think that this is where a lot of confusion comes in, from what we read, hear and see from the media which then tends to shapre not only our perception but in effect our actions when I believe that it is our actions which should shape our perception. In other worde, "Experience is the best teacher" and how can we really learn what this is all about if we are not getting out and learning??

Again, excuse me for digressing. I dont intend to get off topic but I somehow think this is all related..

"As far as staying within age group and race, I would rather have a Black man of a certain quality within a certain age range."

This is understandable. However, have you done the math so to say and figured out how representative this certain "Black man" is in relation to the general population. If, for example, only about 13% of the Black population earns in excess of 100k, and the majority of this is a family of four, then what is the % of single, available Black men that falls within this demographic? If income level is a basis of deternining one's 'quality" then yes there is obvious a "shortage" because realistically we can be talking about no more than 6% of the Black population, which in relation to the overal us population would amount to ZERO so the question is are these "standards" by which this "quality" is determined or defined reasonable??

I ask these questions because I dont believe that this "shortage" really exists as it is claimed but that many have unrealistic expectations of Black men that oftentimes they themselves dont qualify and that much of this is manufactured...

I say this because as much as a lot of Black woemn speak concerning their wealth and independence the median income of Black families remains around 30k and the percentage of Black households that earn over 100k is no more than 13% and that many of these same households with incomes above 100k are actually headed by professional Black men, or are 2 income families....


so what it seems to me is that older Black women have expectations that are out of touch with reality and probaly would be better served by adjusting some expectations and working with a younger Brother to bring you both up into the status you desire, instead of expecting to somehow land someone who quite frankly, does not exist...

Unfortunately (and stupidly), yes. I have too many times just "kept on passing men by", and all because of confusing signals and because neither the man nor the woman likes to make the first move!

(sigh)

-Aglo


well thanks for you honesty because this is what I have been saying for the longest. it is not so much that these men do not exist but the fact that you are NOT taking the initiative to get to know the ones who do get your attention....

BROTHER O, excellent post!!

If you'll humor my thoughts:



I agree, and this was my thought from the onset, after reading her statement.

I think the thing that holds most of us back from getting what we want out of life (barring external circumstances beyond our control), is fear.

Not only do we fear what would happen if we fail to achieve our heart's desire, but I think on some level, we fear what would happen if we do.

This is especially the case for Black people (both men and women); we seem to suffer from that whole notion of "fear of success.

Sister BISABEE's post reminded me of that point; I was trying my best to touch on this in my response, while still being tactful. However, your direct sentiment echoed what I was saying--at least in mind, if not in script.



I was also going to touch on this as well. Nearly every older Black man I know, is trying to run down behind a young skirt. Even my own father, after my mother returned to the Essence.....He's always inquiring about the younger women at his church.....Whenever the older women his age inquire about him, he will entertain them, but only for a short while.

This is a man, in his mid 70's, who has a host of health problems (cancer in remission, severe arthritis, hypertension, etc)....... Yet, he "dates" more women my ages, than I do--go figure.

And his health is another issue:

The older that men get--especially Black men, the worse off they are health-wise. Most Black men, having worked in physically stressful occupations for most of their lives (my father worked construction for 35 years; that's why I refused to do it, and opted for my mother's career legacy, in the healthcare field), and this physical stress tends to bring down the quality of their health considerably.

"Things" don't work as well as they used to, and even when it does, their stamina is never going to be up to par, in comparison to yester-year.

This is the expounded version of your point:



What sense does it make, for an older woman, at her sexual peak, to chase or wait around for a man her age--one who is not looking for a woman his age to begin with, and if he is, he may not possess the ability to satisfy her?

The goal with any relationship, is to seek out that exceptional partner (within realistic limits). But instead, people--especially women--have bought into the "male shortage" crisis, and seem to have adopted the resulting philosophy: "A piece of man is better than no man at all".

If a younger man is actively seeking out an older woman, then he should be seen as being exceptional from the very start; he already possess that "out-of-the-box" thinking, if he is going against social norms with respect to age. He must also already realize (or at least thinks) that he possesses some sort of quality(s) that an older woman would desire or appreciate in him.




Interesting. :?:

My scenario was just the opposite: I was the product of an older mother and a younger father. My Mother (RIP) was 56 years old when she had me (that's right, that was NOT a typo, and you didn't read that wrong). My father was 14 years younger than she was.

I've always grown up around older people in general; all my cousins (mostly female) were usually older than me, and when I lived with my father, all of the people he brought around me (his work buddies, fellow Masons, etc) were obviously older, in his age range.

That's why I've always had a fascination and appreciation for older women.





So very true. Which is why I stated that she might be "Blocking her Blessing".



Don't get me wrong; I've experienced some similar scenarios with older women.

However, I tend to look for the "empty-nester" Sisters, those women whose children (if they even have any) have moved out and on. Many of the women that I encounter, simply want the companionship; they arleady have their own houses, education, and careers established (remember, I'm in a corporate environment, and I'm mostly around corporate women).



True indeed, I feel you on this. These are the worst-case scenarios, that a Younger Brother has to watch out for--but that's no different from what any person should be doing.



Interesting perspective...... I'm wondering if I'll feel the same way, by the time I get that age--assuming I won't be involved with someone at that time.



Interesting idea.......I'd like to explore of these Biblical indescripancies, especially as they apply to our view of how the Bible and religion forms ourvalues, especially as far as relationships are concerned.




Hmm, this is deep......I'd like for you to expound upon this more; particularly in terms of how you think it might play out as far as our people are concerned.

PEACE
Brother Samurai,

Quote:What sense does it make, for an older woman, at her sexual peak, to chase or wait around for a man her age--one who is not looking for a woman his age to begin with, and if he is, he may not posess the ability to satisfy her?

Brother, it makes no sense at all and this is what I have been trying to convey to my sisters for the longest. And the flip side of this is that I have been trying to convey this message to women in my own age group who I may have been attracted to but they were not looking to me but elsewhere, or playing games with me and "leading me on" but i was not interested in playing games with themwhen I was getting more attention from women who were younger. Please dont get me wrong as i have stated before that I dont chase after women. I just put myself in their presence which takes away the argument that I dont exist. lol!!

Now I dont see the quote so I will have to review the latter part again and see what I can do with it..

Okay, now I amy have to hold my tongue on the latter part but i see it like this. As Black men grow older, the ones who become more financially secure and have a greater social and economic mobility also tend to have gone outside of their established social and familial groups which basically puts them in circles where one actually encounters a shortage of available Black women...Why?...because race and gender are stuill dividing lines in american society and "social networking" is key to mobility. For example, while there are large numbers of Black women in the teaching profession what I found was the more specialized my graduate education became and as I combined continuing education programs with extensive leadership training, the numbers of Black women in my classes and at the leadership level, tended to taper off. It also meant that women who I meant that would lose interest when I told them i was a educator, assuming I was a poorly paid educator, did not realize that I was actually in the top 15% of all wage earners because I earned more than twice the Black median income of 30k..My income was closer to the 75k range and this does not include the interest income i was accumulating from stock investment and retirement plans or my Roth IRAs...

So what i am saying is quite logically, if i then as an aspiring filmmaker become part of another network and attend a conference with about 1400 people and non of the panelists or trade show vendors that I meet are Black women, I then find myself working in a new environment in which there are a few Black men such as myself but ZERO Black women. If I then start to date or attend social gatherings essential to networking but there are not any Black women within this network, I think that what I am saying is obvious....

I become forced to adapt to the situation....or, I "die"....

And what this means is that as I grow older, even though I may wish or desire to hook up with a Black woman in my age and economic group and suing the same 'standard" that Black owmen are using, if I do not encounter them what does that say for the "standard"???

Is it reasonable to hold out for someone that does not exist when I am finding myself in situations where I am getting attention from "others" who I may possibly at least be able to form a business partnership??

Waht I am suggesting is that there comes a point where i need to make some concrete decisions based on my present reality and not based on some racial ideal which is based on false notions.....

Brotha Zay,

I know you specifically asked for input from men, but I'd like to offer my perspective on the matter.

I agree that eye contact can be important communication between a man and a woman. I, for one, find it exhilarating and flattering when I get that direct stare into my eyes. But I also find it intimidating, so I usually shift my gaze right away, whether I'm interested or not. Then, if I am interested, I'll try to sneak a few more glances when I think the brotha is not looking. LOL! Writing it makes me see that it truly is a game that we play, but I can't help it--I know for me, it is fear of rejection.

What I would recommend in my case is for a Brotha to not give up on the first few tries to make eye contact--maybe add a slight smile on the second attempt. If the Sista still shifts her gaze after the smile, and does not look your way again, I'd say let it go. But if you catch her checkin you out on the sneak, or whispering something to one of her nearby girls, I'd say go for it! :)

I hope this helps, and that I have not intruded on your convo.

Peace, Fam


Sister Aglo, no, to the contrary, I thank you for your HONEST participation... I don't think sisters realize that men ARE willing to learn whatever it takes to create powerful and positive relationships with women - even if those relationships are of the platonic variety...

The only part I didn't understand about your post was the "intimidation" factor, and where that comes in if, say, you are attracted to a brother??? I must say that if a sister I am attracted to gives me a prolonged gaze, and a smile, that can be emotionally overwhelming, but never is it intimidating... Perhaps, a dopamine/adrenaline rush/overflow, but never intimidating(smile!)

I think, for women, as well as men, such encounters are so powerful that the unfulfilled expectation aspect of it can lead to depression(smile!) The feeling of being so high, and so close and yet so far, can lead to an emotional crash-landing... Having had that experience, I don't get into all of that prolonged gazing unless that tiger is in my tank, and I am not distracted by other issues in my life... Going THERE, and not fulfilling my own expectations for such a moment, would only lead to me compounding the other issues I have...

But, nevertheless, sister, I think your advice to brothers "not to give up after the first few tries" is great motivation, and I appreciate it much... It means that there are actually sisters out here who are looking to make some progress in this area, rather than keep the same old non-working process going on... Thank you, much!


Peace!
Isaiah

I know it was not directed at me,but this helps explain the current situation I am in right now with a certain woman,thank you SOO much.

Brother I-Khan, you are a young man with a lot of road to cover, so take ya time, and do it right, as we used to say... If it don't fit, don't force it, just relax, and let it FLOW..(smile!) Dealing with women is not a clinical process... It is not natural, as it were, though, because we human beings have made it so political...

That's why, in order to make the process fun and fulfilling, it pays to just live and learn as you go, and develop your own style - the one that fits your personality... If you aren't superfly, don't try it... Believe me, you can still be mad intelligent(as you are!)and eloquent, and elegant, and you WILL evenutally attract to you, the sister who loves all that good stuff about you... Remember, you will attract to you, a sister who loves that special something you posess... That goes for any man...

The problem I've found, my brother, is that we all seem to want someone else... We don't want the person who wants us... It's weird, man, but that just seems to be the human condition... That's why we want sisters who want bad boys, and when we don't get that kinda woman, we are upset... Meanwhile, Ms Plain Jane wants us, but she's too plain..(smile!) Brother, take it from a person who, I believe, has seen the miraculous irony of life - the stuff that tells you GOD has a sense of wild humorLOL Ms. Plain Jane IS that same chick who wants the badboy, only she dresses differently, and doesn't talk as loudLOL! Meditate on that for a few, because it could change the way you see plain jane the next time she crosses your path...(smile!)


Peace!
Isaiah

I'm 44 but I tend to attract attention from younger men moreso than men around my age. For ex. I was at a department store last week and one of the guys at the register who looked like he was about 30 kept staring at me. I could feel his eyes on me, and I was nervous, mainly because I'm just getting back into dating, but also because I haven't decided whether I want to go there with someone who's that much younger, cause what would I do with a 30-year old? LOL!!

Anyway, I finally looked directly at him and flashed him a smile and he was smiling his most dazzling smile. Well, it was either do or die at that point, so I guess I died because I picked up my sales slip and walked away. I could feel him watching me as I left. Sometimes, at a point like that, you're not sure how to move it smoothly from that point to where you want it to go.
Hmmm, Sister B.Bee, that's an interesting phenomenon, good-looking 44-year old Black woman attracts 30-something year old Black man.... Hmmmm, that's so unusualLOL!

Sister Bee, I remember that when I was in my 20's I always thought 30-something year old Black Women were THE ULTIMATE FEMALE, because they carried themselves so much more confidently than younger sisters... They seemed to know who they were, and they still looked young and sexy and beautiful... What I didn't know at 20-something was that some of these 30-something Black women were actually 40-something, because when you're that young, you really can't wrap your head around how a 40-something year old person really looks... You only THINK you know how they're SUPPOSED to look, which is like a 65-year oldLOL! And back in our day, maybe a 40-something person DID think they were all washed up with the conditioning the society put on 'em...

Thank God, this is a new day... Our generation looks and oft acts, much younger.. That is what this young guy probably saw in you... Someone who probably looks a lot younger than he would suppose you are if you told him your age... Plus, your BODY LANGUAGE probably sent that brother some messages he couldn't resist... Aw, hell, he coulda even been older than you think he isLOL! Black Don't Crack, sister BEE, you know that!LOL!

I'm with brother O on the Adapt or Die piece... If we aren't going to expand our boundaries a litle, we will ultimately miss out on a passel of great experiences that will enrich our time on this earth... Since you are dating, sister BEE, you should know that you might have meet a few suitors before you decide on the right guy.. Sounds like fun times ahead for you, to meLOL!


Peace!I
Isaiah

[Quote] Who are these men talking about this shortage?

I guess, I may be reading too much. LOL! I read a variety of magazine articles, books, and listen to discussions on the radio via the internet, TV, etc. Also, I know a couple of older Black men in my area here who verify this when they talk about how different things are from when they were in their youth in terms of the proportion of younger Black men lacking drive, purpose in life and such.

Admittedly I am very suspect about what I "read" these days and often find that my own experience is contrary to what I "read". And I also think that this is where a lot of confusion comes in, from what we read, hear and see from the media which then tends to shapre not only our perception but in effect our actions when I believe that it is our actions which should shape our perception. In other worde, "Experience is the best teacher" and how can we really learn what this is all about if we are not getting out and learning??

I’m going to think about this. It does get confusing because there’s a lot of contradictory info coming through.

Again, excuse me for digressing. I dont intend to get off topic but I somehow think this is all related..

We may be really off topic here is right! But it is related.


Bisabee said: "As far as staying within age group and race, I would rather have a Black man of a certain quality within a certain age range."

This is understandable. However, have you done the math so to say and figured out how representative this certain "Black man" is in relation to the general population. If, for example, only about 13% of the Black population earns in excess of 100k, and the majority of this is a family of four, then what is the % of single, available Black men that falls within this demographic? If income level is a basis of deternining one's 'quality" then yes there is obvious a "shortage" because realistically we can be talking about no more than 6% of the Black population, which in relation to the overal us population would amount to ZERO so the question is are these "standards" by which this "quality" is determined or defined reasonable??

No-no-no!! Income is not at the top of my list for determining quality. It’s surprising how many men automatically think this is what women are talking about. However, SOMETIMES there is a correlation between income and quality in that the same intelligence, drive, and sense of purpose it takes to be a hi-quality man is also used to produce moderate to higher income. Barring unusual circumstances, it’s rare to find people who have intelligence, drive, and purpose who are low income, don’t you think?

I ask these questions because I dont believe that this "shortage" really exists as it is claimed but that many have unrealistic expectations of Black men that oftentimes they themselves dont qualify and that much of this is manufactured...

I can understand why you would question this, but if I just use the women (relatives, friends, acquaintances) that I know as a sample, it just ain’t easy, even for younger upwardly mobile women (well-educated, well-employed, good values) to find a mate these days whereas when I was, as I said in my 20s, Black men were EVERYWHERE pursuing Black women. That’s why I say, if you research the topics of articles in major Black publications (Ebony, Essence, Jet) during that time, you’d find that this was not an issue then or not nearly the issue it is now. What happened?

Maybe there are others in my age category who can weigh in on this in case, I just didn’t notice something that was happening then. It is possible I may be looking backwards through those proverbial “rose-colored” glasses. LOL


so what it seems to me is that older Black women have expectations that are out of touch with reality and probaly would be better served by adjusting some expectations and working with a younger Brother to bring you both up into the status you desire, instead of expecting to somehow land someone who quite frankly, does not exist...

Brother, I’m not just looking for sex or income from a man, I want a well-rounded man who I can for ex. talk with the way you and I are talking here. I’m sure you’re aware that most of a hi-quality relationship is not spent in bed or spent dealing with financial issues. It’s possible that a 30-year old man can talk about all the various issues and their nuances the way you talk, for ex., but I think it would be a lot less likely to find that in a much younger man. I could be wrong, but I doubt if you were nearly as much of a thought-provoker when you were 30 as you are now.

[quote]that's an interesting phenomenon, 44-year old Black woman attracts 30-something year old Black man.... Hmmmm, that's so unusualLOL!

Now that's downright scary!! LOL Sounds like Terry Macmillan!

Seriously, that is a concern. Maybe these younger guys are seeing "DESPERATION" stamped on my face or something and they just want to help me out! :laugh:


What I didn't know at 20-something was that some of these 30-something Black women were actually 40-something, because when you're that young, you really can't wrap your head around how a 40-something year old person really looks... You only THINK you know how they're SUPPOSED to look, which is like a 65-year oldLOL! And back in our day, maybe a 40-something person DID think they were all washed up with the conditioning the society put on 'em...

This is so true!! I can remember how when I was 18, the idea of people over 30 having sex was enough to make me nausea. :laugh: YUK!! I just couldn't think about it. :weird:

Thank God, this is a new day... Our generation looks and oft acts, much younger.. That is what this young guy probably saw in you... Someone who probably looks a lot younger than he would suppose you are if you told him your age...

For women especially, it's great that things have changed. Men of any age have always had lots of options in the romance department. As for looking young, I think it more like I've been sitting on the shelf for so long, I'm just well-preserved.:lol:


Plus, your BODY LANGUAGE probably sent that brother some messages he couldn't resist... Aw, hell, he coulda even been older than you think he isLOL! Black Don't Crack, sister BEE, you know that!LOL!

Yes, back to BODY LANGUAGE, like I said, my body was probably sending out distress signals :lol: Hep me! Hep me! :lol:

Black women sure don't crack fast. I know a few sistas in their late 50s who, I swear, look like they're about 30. If you saw their faces, I would bet any amount of money that you couldn't tell they're their age.

I'm with brother O on the Adapt or Die piece...

Oh Yes! That's a monumental thought right there. We could all benefit from thinking about that one thought for at least an hour every day and putting it into action!

If we aren't going to expand our boundaries a litle, we will ultimately miss out on a passel of great experiences that will enrich our time on this earth... Since you are dating, sister BEE, you should know that you might have meet a few suitors before you decide on the right guy.. Sounds like fun times ahead for you, to meLOL!

Brother, wish me luck. I may have actually met someone on one of the online sites. ;) It looks good at this point.

Btw, Great Thread!!

[QUOTE=omowalejabali]



I guess, I may be reading too much. LOL! I read a variety of magazine articles, books, and listen to discussions on the radio via the internet, TV, etc. Also, I know a couple of older Black men in my area here who verify this when they talk about how different things are from when they were in their youth in terms of the proportion of younger Black men lacking drive, purpose in life and such.



I’m going to think about this. It does get confusing because there’s a lot of contradictory info coming through.



We may be really off topic here is right! But it is related.


Bisabee said: "As far as staying within age group and race, I would rather have a Black man of a certain quality within a certain age range."



No-no-no!! Income is not at the top of my list for determining quality. It’s surprising how many men automatically think this is what women are talking about. However, SOMETIMES there is a correlation between income and quality in that the same intelligence, drive, and sense of purpose it takes to be a hi-quality man is also used to produce moderate to higher income. Barring unusual circumstances, it’s rare to find people who have intelligence, drive, and purpose who are low income, don’t you think?



I can understand why you would question this, but if I just use the women (relatives, friends, acquaintances) that I know as a sample, it just ain’t easy, even for younger upwardly mobile women (well-educated, well-employed, good values) to find a mate these days whereas when I was, as I said in my 20s, Black men were EVERYWHERE pursuing Black women. That’s why I say, if you research the topics of articles in major Black publications (Ebony, Essence, Jet) during that time, you’d find that this was not an issue then or not nearly the issue it is now. What happened?

Maybe there are others in my age category who can weigh in on this in case, I just didn’t notice something that was happening then. It is possible I may be looking backwards through those proverbial “rose-colored” glasses. LOL




Brother, I’m not just looking for sex or income from a man, I want a well-rounded man who I can for ex. talk with the way you and I are talking here. I’m sure you’re aware that most of a hi-quality relationship is not spent in bed or spent dealing with financial issues. It’s possible that a 30-year old man can talk about all the various issues and their nuances the way you talk, for ex., but I think it would be a lot less likely to find that in a much younger man. I could be wrong, but I doubt if you were nearly as much of a thought-provoker when you were 30 as you are now.



Sister, since you and I are close to the same age and you state that "That's why I say, if you research the topics in articles in major Black publications during that time , you'd find this was not an issue then or not nearly the issue it is now" my entire point to you is that I see things differently because I do NOT rely on what these magazines saw but I rely on what I SEE and what I EXPERIENCE...

And no disrespect but it you are encountering older Black men who are speaking of a shortage of Black women, they are either leading sheltered lives or they are in a situation similar as mine whereby we live and work in areas which demographically speaking have low populations of Black folk, both male and female. But a shortage of available Black women....??? I'm not buying that one. all I have to do is fellowship at some Black churches, such as Potter's House and reality strikes!!

Again, I think the major change from when you and I were in are 20s is that while Black men were EVERYWHERE pursuing "Black women" now they are EVERYWHERE pursuing WOMEN, all types of women, and the "shortage" is in actuality a "minority" of Black men who exclusively "date" Black women...Now this is something that "research" will indicate. MOST Black men are now expanding their dating options and the ones who get married are still, for the most part, marrying Black women, but "dating" is now an entirely different situation. The Brothers here, for the most part, the ones who are single, are so by their own choice NOT to date "outside" and have either given up on dating or are holding out while keeping their eyes open for that special BLACK woman...but if these same Brothers "kept their options open" then they would have no reason to speak of a shortage. Why?

because on a GLOBAL level, Black men are a "hot commodity".All Black men need to do to find this out is do more traveling. And this is where I tend to disagree with this statement..."Income is not at the top of my list for determining quality."

Maybe not for you, but it is for a lot of single, available, financially secure younger women. They ARE looking for someone that can at least match their economic status...And this speaks to the disconnect between many younger Black men and women....The women reach a higher economic status quicker than Black men, and this is the MAJOR difference from when you and I were in our 20s...

And, sister, truth be told, this is why I am attracting younger women, of all types...because I usually find myself in situation where social and economic CLASS is a major factor...and this is exactly why I dont buy into alot of these arguments...as I socialize within folks in the higher income range I am encountering LESS Black women, not more..and if these arguments were correct I would be encountering more "single, independenly wealthy" Black women...but this clearly is not the case...

[QUOTE=Isaiah]



Now that's downright scary!! LOL Sounds like Terry Macmillan!

Seriously, that is a concern. Maybe these younger guys are seeing "DESPERATION" stamped on my face or something and they just want to help me out! :laugh:




This is so true!! I can remember how when I was 18, the idea of people over 30 having sex was enough to make me nausea. :laugh: YUK!! I just couldn't think about it. :weird:



For women especially, it's great that things have changed. Men of any age have always had lots of options in the romance department. As for looking young, I think it more like I've been sitting on the shelf for so long, I'm just well-preserved.:lol:




Yes, back to BODY LANGUAGE, like I said, my body was probably sending out distress signals :lol: Hep me! Hep me! :lol:

Black women sure don't crack fast. I know a few sistas in their late 50s who, I swear, look like they're about 30. If you saw their faces, I would bet any amount of money that you couldn't tell they're their age.



Oh Yes! That's a monumental thought right there. We could all benefit from thinking about that one thought for at least an hour every day and putting it into action!



Brother, wish me luck. I may have actually met someone on one of the online sites. ;) It looks good at this point.

Btw, Great Thread!!



"I may have actually met someone on one of the online sites"

Good for you and best of luck!

A lot of people are not into dating from the net but it is big business.. Most of the women I have dated the past 5 years I met on the net and most of my friends I have met the same way. It even has gotten me connected with long, lost relatives and classmates from junior and senior high school..

This is another major way in which things have changed. A lot of these younger women who speak of dating shortage what do you think they are doing late friday and saturday nights? I can not explain to you how many Black women who I am in contact with who are models or somehow involved in the music industry who are up late and erarly morn on some of these sites, exchanging messages while I am up in the wee hours updating one of my sites. I know women who are in the clubs making money as "go-go" dancers who are on the net at 3am after their gigs are over.


One thing I am very keen about is noticing the times in which I recieve emails, messages, bulletins or blog postings. This alone tell me so much more than any magazine or news article ever could.

by the way, Happy Mother's Day!

[QUOTE=Bisabee]



Sister, since you and I are close to the same age and you state that "That's why I say, if you research the topics in articles in major Black publications during that time , you'd find this was not an issue then or not nearly the issue it is now" my entire point to you is that I see things differently because I do NOT rely on what these magazines saw but I rely on what I SEE and what I EXPERIENCE...

And no disrespect but it you are encountering older Black men who are speaking of a shortage of Black women, they are either leading sheltered lives or they are in a situation similar as mine whereby we live and work in areas which demographically speaking have low populations of Black folk, both male and female. But a shortage of available Black women....??? I'm not buying that one. all I have to do is fellowship at some Black churches, such as Potter's House and reality strikes!!

Again, I think the major change from when you and I were in are 20s is that while Black men were EVERYWHERE pursuing "Black women" now they are EVERYWHERE pursuing WOMEN, all types of women, and the "shortage" is in actuality a "minority" of Black men who exclusively "date" Black women...Now this is something that "research" will indicate. MOST Black men are now expanding their dating options and the ones who get married are still, for the most part, marrying Black women, but "dating" is now an entirely different situation. The Brothers here, for the most part, the ones who are single, are so by their own choice NOT to date "outside" and have either given up on dating or are holding out while keeping their eyes open for that special BLACK woman...but if these same Brothers "kept their options open" then they would have no reason to speak of a shortage. Why?

because on a GLOBAL level, Black men are a "hot commodity".All Black men need to do to find this out is do more traveling. And this is where I tend to disagree with this statement..."Income is not at the top of my list for determining quality."

Maybe not for you, but it is for a lot of single, available, financially secure younger women. They ARE looking for someone that can at least match their economic status...And this speaks to the disconnect between many younger Black men and women....The women reach a higher economic status quicker than Black men, and this is the MAJOR difference from when you and I were in our 20s...
...

Brother O, I'm not EXPERIENCING much at all, :lol:and haven't done so for almost a decade now, so I'll have to go along with you on that front.

Apparently, I wasn't clear regarding the Black men talking about the shortage. These men are AGREEING with Black women that yes, there is a shortage of relationship-minded Black men available to Black women. This is what the articles and such also say and you are verifying this with your statements regarding Black men "expanding" their options and dating other groups and races of women. This is often cited in all of those articles and discussions as one of the main reasons why the pool of eligible Black men has shrunk a whole lot.

I also agree that for some younger Black women, income and social class is a major factor in the mate selection process. My younger female cousins, for ex., are looking for men who have similar incomes and on a similar social level and they're not finding them. Also "higher income" is a relative term. When it comes to income, I'm talking about these young relatives of mine from 26-35 who make on the average of $65,000 a year.

I also agree that when you and I were in our 20s, there were many more Black men and women who were closer in terms of income and social level, but when you consider that a big chunk of the higher strata younger Black men these days are dating other groups and races, that could very well account for some of the ones that are missing--the ones my cousins are looking for.

People, in general, are dating a lot more across racial and ethnic lines. For ex. my cousins say that many of their white, Asian, and other non-Black peers are heavily dating and marrying across racial and ethnic lines. Among these young professionals, Asian women are dating and marrying white men a lot and white women date and marry everybody:lol:

[QUOTE=omowalejabali]

Brother O, I'm not EXPERIENCING much at all, :lol:and haven't done so for almost a decade now, so I'll have to go along with you on that front.

Apparently, I wasn't clear regarding the Black men talking about the shortage. These men are AGREEING with Black women that yes, there is a shortage of relationship-minded Black men available to Black women. This is what the articles and such also say and you are verifying this with your statements regarding Black men "expanding" their options and dating other groups and races of women. This is often cited in all of those articles and discussions as one of the main reasons why the pool of eligible Black men has shrunk a whole lot.

I also agree that for some younger Black women, income and social class is a major factor in the mate selection process. My younger female cousins, for ex., are looking for men who have similar incomes and on a similar social level and they're not finding them. Also "higher income" is a relative term. When it comes to income, I'm talking about these young relatives of mine from 26-35 who make on the average of $65,000 a year.

I also agree that when you and I were in our 20s, there were many more Black men and women who were closer in terms of income and social level, but when you consider that a big chunk of the higher strata younger Black men these days are dating other groups and races, that could very well account for some of the ones that are missing--the ones my cousins are looking for.

People, in general, are dating a lot more across racial and ethnic lines. For ex. my cousins say that many of their white, Asian, and other non-Black peers are heavily dating and marrying across racial and ethnic lines. Among these young professionals, Asian women are dating and marrying white men a lot and white women date and marry everybody:lol:


Okay sister. this is a long drawn out discussion that can continue into eternity with no resolution. We are essentially saying the same thing but a differnece in how the message is being communicated. For example, these young relatives of yours CHOOSE to seek men within a particular RACE and CLASS, while it seems everyone else is CHOOSING to seek men and women OUTSIDE of their respective Race and CLASS...

While you sate that "white women date and marry everybody", increasingly, Black MEN are doing the same..

particularly younger Black men because Black women in their age group do not view them as "suitable"...

do you see how these "signals" keep getting crossed??

I mean, really, I hear what you are telling me quite often from even the younger women (28-35) that I do end up dating or "socializing" with...and even then, my age and a considerable age difference does come into play, if not initially, because they naturally are seeking someone closer to their age, not a "granddad"...What works for me is the fact that I look younger than I am and am upfront about my age...a lot of younger women initially say they dont have a problem with it but deep inside they do and i know it because I hear them and their friends complain about it all the time. Even from my daughter who is only 20...

As i see it, this is a manufactured shortage as a result of CHOICE....I know plenty of young, college educated Black men who overwhelmingly are single....and its a result of their own choice or women their age are looking elsewhere, or...

have not yet gotten up the nerve to approach these young men and it has become an easier route for them to get together and continue to affirm each other in perpetuating the myth that they dont exist...

and as i stated before, if the median income of Black families is around 30k what is the percentage of Black women, in relation to the general population that are earning 65k or above a year??

These younger women you speak of are the EXCEPTION...not the rule...

Off the topic just a bit... I would concur with a lot of younger men trying to date older women; now i don't know what their reasoning is... however it happens quite often...

My mama is 44 and men literally are beating down her door. i mean men always have tried to talk to her but i guess it is really noticeable now b/c they'll ask us *her children* about her. i mean it's ridiculous.... i can remember in high school.. the single young principal was trying to get at my mama... she's a manager at a kroger... and i know of two men that come by everyday just to say hello... mama is completely oblivious to this. i just told her friday, "ma! men don't come to a grocery store every day! they are coming to see you and you are shooting 'em down.!" she still doesn't see it....
i see it though... women, especially black women, look better with age. there's a confidence there that wasn't there before. she's more comfortable with herself... so on and so forth.... that's if she's matured. not all people mature. and that's if her face and body doesn't look like she had a 'hard' life... okay back to the topic....

btw... she'll ignore men period... but she will ignore a young one in a hot minute... completely dismiss him. my aunts follow suit. now my aunt's best friend loves younger men... she's the only one i know of though... and i have a family full of nice looking women... my aunt's friend also tries to look young. maybe that has something to do with it....

Off the topic just a bit... I would concur with a lot of younger men trying to date older women; now i don't know what their reasoning is... however it happens quite often...

I explained this in my earlier post--at least from my perspective (and that of those that I hear from other Brothers who share my same interest in older women).

My mama is 44 and men literally are beating down her door. i mean men always have tried to talk to her but i guess it is really noticeable now b/c they'll ask us *her children* about her. i mean it's ridiculous.... i can remember in high school.. the single young principal was trying to get at my mama... she's a manager at a kroger... and i know of two men that come by everyday just to say hello... mama is completely oblivious to this. i just told her friday, "ma! men don't come to a grocery store every day! they are coming to see you and you are shooting 'em down.!" she still doesn't see it....
i see it though... women, especially black women, look better with age. there's a confidence there that wasn't there before. she's more comfortable with herself... so on and so forth.... that's if she's matured. not all people mature. and that's if her face and body doesn't look like she had a 'hard' life... okay back to the topic....

Out of curiosity, what is her reasoning for "shooting these men down"? Does she not want a man in her life?

btw... she'll ignore men period... but she will ignore a young one in a hot minute... completely dismiss him. my aunts follow suit.

What's their reasoning for doing any of this?

now my aunt's best friend loves younger men... she's the only one i know of though... and i have a family full of nice looking women... my aunt's friend also tries to look young. maybe that has something to do with it....

I have to say, that I try to steer clear of the older women who try to dress and act younger....I have absolutely no interest in them.

If I wanted a woman who acts and dresses younger, I'll just get a younger woman.

PEACE

Brother O, I'm not EXPERIENCING much at all, :lol:and haven't done so for almost a decade now, so I'll have to go along with you on that front.

Apparently, I wasn't clear regarding the Black men talking about the shortage. These men are AGREEING with Black women that yes, there is a shortage of relationship-minded Black men available to Black women. This is what the articles and such also say and you are verifying this with your statements regarding Black men "expanding" their options and dating other groups and races of women. This is often cited in all of those articles and discussions as one of the main reasons why the pool of eligible Black men has shrunk a whole lot.

I also agree that for some younger Black women, income and social class is a major factor in the mate selection process. My younger female cousins, for ex., are looking for men who have similar incomes and on a similar social level and they're not finding them. Also "higher income" is a relative term. When it comes to income, I'm talking about these young relatives of mine from 26-35 who make on the average of $65,000 a year.

I also agree that when you and I were in our 20s, there were many more Black men and women who were closer in terms of income and social level, but when you consider that a big chunk of the higher strata younger Black men these days are dating other groups and races, that could very well account for some of the ones that are missing--the ones my cousins are looking for.

People, in general, are dating a lot more across racial and ethnic lines. For ex. my cousins say that many of their white, Asian, and other non-Black peers are heavily dating and marrying across racial and ethnic lines. Among these young professionals, Asian women are dating and marrying white men a lot and white women date and marry everybody:lol:

My only question to you with regards to this, Sister, is what are you going to do, in the midst of all of this......?

I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like you have much of a game-plan, as it pertains to procuring a mate for yourself, though I gather from your past sentiments that finding one is your intent, or at least your desire.

I have to say, that as a person whom is also striving to ultimately have the very same, that not having a "game-plan" of some sort will not get us very far, considering all the stipulations and hinderances that we have been speaking about here.

Where you and I differ, is that you seem to be most comfortable employing a more passive role (whereas I suppose I'm taking more of a "passive-aggressive" one :?: ), which I suppose I have to respect.

However, questioning the passive role notwithstanding (I have said in past discussions that a "closed mouth is not going to get fed", with regards to dating/mating), if one is going to employ that method, then it would do you a huge disservice to not acknowledge those who might be an aggressor (i.e.: the younger gentleman you encountered in the department store).

As a younger man who takes interest in women your age, I can say with utmost certainty, that the elusiveness that you displayed in your encounter might turn some younger men off, as for us, the pursuit of an older woman symbolizes the certainty and decisiveness that we as younger men are not getting from the women in our age range.

Using Sister SOFTLY's response as an example: it would be easy to translate your dismissal of this younger man, as being dismissed simply because he is younger.

This for us is a doubled stress; we already have to worry as to whether we are your "type" (whatever that means) to begin with, but worrying if we are "old enough" just adds to the dilemma.

I must re-emphasized the fact, that younger men are still men. We are no less capable of loving you, satisfying you, and protecting you, than any other man would be--and probably alot better, in some cases. :)

PEACE

I explained this in my earlier post--at least from my perspective (and that of those that I hear from other Brothers who share my same interest in older women).
Out of curiosity, what is her reasoning for "shooting these men down"? Does she not want a man in her life?

she has a long time on again off again fiance...

What's their reasoning for doing any of this?

PEACE

she just does not recognize that these men are serious about dating her. she doesn't notice when men are attracted to her. she's in disbelief when you are finally able to convince her... even if she didn't have her boyfriend i don't think she'd pay them much attention right now... she's in a 'i'ma worry about me and have the time of my life phase.'... and that's a place she's never been before...
also since she's a really nice looking woman with a favorable shape men have always approached her... i think that since it's always happened she's built up this 'resistance' to it... and she just thinks people are 'being nice'... her words..
btw... in general... she thinks younger men are way too much work and they need a bit of of living before they can appraoch her... as she says... "ive raised my children."...

she has a long time on again off again fiance...

Understood.


she just does not recognize that these men are serious about dating her.

btw... in general... she thinks younger men are way too much work and they need a bit of of living before they can appraoch her... as she says... "ive raised my children."...



That's a very unfortunate stereotype. Has she ever dated a younger man, by which to qualify such a sentiment? I often find that people generate preconceived notions about things (and people), while never having really experienced the phenomena for themselves.

There are quite a few Black men in my age range, that are actually quite accomplished on alot of levels and aspects (every Brother that I know, that I hang around fits this description). I've found that oftentimes, the younger man has alot more to offer the older woman, than vice versa.

This all the more perplexes me, because these same women who place such an uninformed judgement on people, are the ones who have limited options to begin with.

PEACE

i will further add that i think the difference in age is rooted in two things maturity and life experiences... if you don't have them... then she is not interested... i remember she dated a man that was her same age... however... he'd been married... but didn't have any children... and she didn't feel like they would mesh..

My only question to you with regards to this, Sister, is what are you going to do, in the midst of all of this......?

I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like you have much of a game-plan, as it pertains to procuring a mate for yourself, though I gather from your past sentiments that finding one is your intent, or at least your desire.

I have to say, that as a person whom is also striving to ultimately have the very same, that not having a "game-plan" of some sort will not get us very far, considering all the stipulations and hinderances that we have been speaking about here.

Where you and I differ, is that you seem to be most comfortable employing a more passive role (whereas I suppose I'm taking more of a "passive-aggressive" one :?: ), which I suppose I have to respect.

However, questioning the passive role notwithstanding (I have said in past discussions that a "closed mouth is not going to get fed", with regards to dating/mating), if one is going to employ that method, then it would do you a huge disservice to not acknowledge those who might be an aggressor (i.e.: the younger gentleman you encountered in the department store).

As a younger man who takes interest in women your age, I can say with utmost certainty, that the elusiveness that you displayed in your encounter might turn some younger men off, as for us, the pursuit of an older woman symbolizes the certainty and decisiveness that we as younger men are not getting from the women in our age range.

Using Sister SOFTLY's response as an example: it would be easy to translate your dismissal of this younger man, as being dismissed simply because he is younger.

This for us is a doubled stress; we already have to worry as to whether we are your "type" (whatever that means) to begin with, but worrying if we are "old enough" just adds to the dilemma.

I must re-emphasized the fact, that younger men are still men. We are no less capable of loving you, satisfying you, and protecting you, than any other man would be--and probably alot better, in some cases. :)

PEACE

It's true. I don't have much of a game plan. I am trying to meet men via online sites. I've registered on a couple of them.

Regarding me being with a younger man, a lot depends on what a person is looking for. I'm not looking for a lot more than the physical.

So, about that particular young guy at the store, let's be real. I'm not a snob, but I know how much people who work there make because a woman from my church works there. I want to do things that I'm fairly sure he couldn't afford to do with his salary. Money is not my main criteria, but it has to be taken into consideration because money is needed and I'm not looking for a financial dependent. When people make widely different amounts of money--especially when a woman has more than a man-- it sometimes causes resentment and just problems.

i will further add that i think the difference in age is rooted in two things maturity and life experiences... if you don't have them... then she is not interested... i remember she dated a man that was her same age... however... he'd been married... but didn't have any children... and she didn't feel like they would mesh..

All this does, is perpetuate the very homogenous and provential mindset that we as a people suffer from.

While I'm not necessarily an adherent of the "opposites attract" mindset, I do think that it's unrealistic to expect our potentia mate to be a composite clone of us. Where is the growth, and potential for learning, if all my perspectives and experiences mirror yours?

No disrespect to your family members, but it's really outlandish to discount someone as a potentially loving mate, good protector, etc because they haven't had children.

This points back to what our Brother O was saying earlier, about people (women, in this case) whittling down their alternatives based on unreasonable criteria, and then complaining about the "shortage" thereafter.

I know women who are 5 feet 8 inches, who claim that they won't even look at a man who is not 6'4.........Then they complain that they are having a "hard time" finding a good man.

It's completely impossible to take such people seriously, when they have ruled out about 80% of the entire population for no good reason.

PEACE

Understood.






That's a very unfortunate stereotype. Has she ever dated a younger man, by which to qualify such a sentiment? I often find that people generate preconceived notions about things (and people), while never having really experienced the phenomena for themselves.

There are quite a few Black men in my age range, that are actually quite accomplished on alot of levels and aspects (every Brother that I know, that I hang around fits this description). I've found that oftentimes, the younger man has alot more to offer the older woman, than vice versa.

This all the more perplexes me, because these same women who place such an uninformed judgement on people, are the ones who have limited options to begin with.

PEACE


"I've found that oftentimes, the younger man has alot more to offer the older woman, than vice versa."

When I was your age i found the same to be true, and through my entire 30s I was involved with women who were older.

What a dilemna. The older women complains about not being able to find "available, quality men" in her own age group but dismisses younger Black men who might be more suitable. The younger Black women dismiss these same men as "undesirable" but still complain about the lack of "available, quality men" in their age group.

From this it just seems, brother Samurai, that you and I just dont exist...lol!

It's true. I don't have much of a game plan. I am trying to meet men via online sites. I've registered on a couple of them.

Regarding me being with a younger man, a lot depends on what a person is looking for. I'm not looking for a lot more than the physical.

So, about that particular young guy at the store, let's be real. I'm not a snob, but I know how much people who work there make because a woman from my church works there. I want to do things that I'm fairly sure he couldn't afford to do with his salary. Money is not my main criteria, but it has to be taken into consideration because money is needed and I'm not looking for a financial dependent. When people make widely different amounts of money--especially when a woman has more than a man-- it sometimes causes resentment and just problems.


Oh, so now, money DOES "come into play"..lol!!

This was my point earlier and perhaps I was in error in how this point was made.

It's true. I don't have much of a game plan. I am trying to meet men via online sites. I've registered on a couple of them.

Would you mind sharing which ones you are on (I'm on a couple myself :fyi: )?

Regarding me being with a younger man, a lot depends on what a person is looking for. I'm not looking for a lot more than the physical.

Did I read this correctly? You are only looking for a man based on physical criteria? :confused:

If so, then my perspective has just changed of you.

So, about that particular young guy at the store, let's be real. I'm not a snob, but I know how much people who work there make because a woman from my church works there. I want to do things that I'm fairly sure he couldn't afford to do with his salary. Money is not my main criteria, but it has to be taken into consideration because money is needed and I'm not looking for a financial dependent. When people make widely different amounts of money--especially when a woman has more than a man-- it sometimes causes resentment and just problems.

I'm not sure if you clarified before, as to whether the younger gentlemen actually worked at the store, or if he was just shopping there.

However, if he does/did work there, then all of your judgements here could very well be premature.

Most people in retail work part-time; they usually have another job, or are in school. I was one of those people at one time.

And I was NO ONE's financial dependent. In fact, I worked the way I did, because I had financial respsonsibilities, and to keep from being someone else's responsibility myself.

I was no less of a good catch as a Black man then, than I am now.

The issue with perspectives such as that which you've conveyed here, is that they don't leave room for this; that a good man (or personal overall) is not defined by or because of his situation, but rather inspite of it.

In truth, it sounds like your Blessings are being blocked...........With no game plan, alot of premature judgements, and some unreasonable criteria, you really can't expect to get far.

PEACE

"I've found that oftentimes, the younger man has alot more to offer the older woman, than vice versa."

When I was your age i found the same to be true, and through my entire 30s I was involved with women who were older.

What a dilemna. The older women complains about not being able to find "available, quality men" in her own age group but dismisses younger Black men who might be more suitable. The younger Black women dismiss these same men as "undesirable" but still complain about the lack of "available, quality men" in their age group.

From this it just seems, brother Samurai, that you and I just dont exist...lol!

It's like wearing those red-tinted shades, and whenever you look at something red, it doesn't register to your brain. And then that person complains when they can't see, or are bumping into everything.

*SIGH*

Some people are just their own worst enemy :bully:

PEACE

It's like wearing those red-tinted shades, and whenever you look at something red, it doesn't register to your brain. And then that person complains when they can't see, or are bumping into everything.

*SIGH*

Some people are just their own worst enemy :bully:

PEACE


"Some people are just their own worst enemy."

This is the main point I have been trying to make but unfortunatley is seems to keep getting turned on me as if i am that enemy. And then I get accused of "whining" when all I do is attempt to point out the obvious contradictions in these self-defeatist and self-denying arguments.

Well, at least I know I am not alone....

peace brother, Im done with this one as well...more than enough said..

"Some people are just their own worst enemy."

This is the main point I have been trying to make but unfortunatley is seems to keep getting turned on me as if i am that enemy. And then I get accused of "whining" when all I do is attempt to point out the obvious contradictions in these self-defeatist and self-denying arguments.

Well, at least I know I am not alone....

peace brother, Im done with this one as well...more than enough said..

True indeed.

There seems to be no winning. We get condemned when we are not in the "proper" financial bracket, and we get blamed for women perming their hair.

When we speak up and defend our position, we are "whining", and when we sit and say nothing, opting to let the situation play out with arms folded and shaking our heads, then we are accused of not caring, and/or being emotionally reclused.

There seems to be no winning. :(

PEACE

Would you mind sharing which ones you are on (I'm on a couple myself :fyi: )?



Did I read this correctly? You are only looking for a man based on physical criteria? :confused:

If so, then my perspective has just changed of you.



I'm not sure if you clarified before, as to whether the younger gentlemen actually worked at the store, or if he was just shopping there.

However, if he does/did work there, then all of your judgements here could very well be premature.

Most people in retail work part-time; they usually have another job, or are in school. I was one of those people at one time.

And I was NO ONE's financial dependent. In fact, I worked the way I did, because I had financial respsonsibilities, and to keep from being someone else's responsibility myself.

I was no less of a good catch as a Black man then, than I am now.

The issue with perspectives such as that which you've conveyed here, is that they don't leave room for this; that a good man (or personal overall) is not defined by or because of his situation, but rather inspite of it.

In truth, it sounds like your Blessings are being blocked...........With no game plan, alot of premature judgements, and some unreasonable criteria, you really can't expect to get far.

PEACE

By the "physical" I mean: SEX. I'm looking for a lot more than that in a relationship.

sam... i say this b/c i have children... now i don't dismiss men if they have children... all them men i've dated save two have not had children... however.. i will say that when you do have them.... you look at the world differently... something changes... there's experience there.. that nothing... not watching other people's children, not godchildren, not stepchildren, neices, nephews, so on adn so forth... that can compare...

anyhoo... regardless... she has no problem finding men that she would consider dating if that is what she chooses to do so deciding what she can and will deal with is not only an her choice but an option... and no disrespect taken... in her realm there is no shortage... in my realm there is no shortage... i just have not found the person i want to 'settle' down with so i just date... having an age bracket in mind is not unreasonable... it's a preference...
for instance... i don't have an age range picked out per se... at least not consciously.. but i date men usually b/w 6-12 years older than me... that is my preference... the've always been pretty much in there thirties... that's me... my mama... likes what she calls a 'distinguished' looking gentleman... it is what it is...
in would say that dilligence and being responsible w/money is much more important that how much a person makes... i dated a man that made well into the six figures and he wasted money like he was a millionare... he filed for bankruptcy... i don't want someone irresponsible as heck... and constantly in debt b/c he can't manage money...
it seems ya'll are bringing up the 'whining' more than anyone else... who's talking about whining right now...

Bro Isaiah...I havent figured it out. The body language thing. With some women, its the touching, with others it's the eyes, or the tilt of the head. Im noticing more, more sistas are being a bit more direct, more aggressive in approaching men....Some just step right up and ask you, what ya eating, what ya doing, nice suit...etc...of course the most obvious ones are the long glances, up and down with a smile....the need to touch your biceps or back....

There are regional differences too. I find women from the south to be more open, and have less guarded physical stances than women from the Northeast....Southern women seem to touch more....and seem to have more physical closeness...

But that still aint helping me....women are so varied, and give off so many different clues or hints, sometimes its verbal, sometimes it physical, some times it's direct.

I dont think I will ever figure it out, so I just go on instinct.

Bro Isaiah...I havent figured it out. The body language thing. With some women, its the touching, with others it's the eyes, or the tilt of the head. Im noticing more, more sistas are being a bit more direct, more aggressive in approaching men....Some just step right up and ask you, what ya eating, what ya doing, nice suit...etc...of course the most obvious ones are the long glances, up and down with a smile....the need to touch your biceps or back....

There are regional differences too. I find women from the south to be more open, and have less guarded physical stances than women from the Northeast....Southern women seem to touch more....and seem to have more physical closeness...

But that still aint helping me....women are so varied, and give off so many different clues or hints, sometimes its verbal, sometimes it physical, some times it's direct.

I dont think I will ever figure it out, so I just go on instinct.


"Southern women seem to touch more....and seem to have more physical closeness..."

Did you read what I said earlier about the "open" and "closed" stance..lol!!

I dont try to figure any of it out anymore. Just live and see which way things go..

There are regional differences too. I find women from the south to be more open, and have less guarded physical stances than women from the Northeast....Southern women seem to touch more....and seem to have more physical closeness...


Your experiences are DEFINITELY different from mine. Southern women for me, seem to act like they are scared of a man.

Your experiences are DEFINITELY different from mine. Southern women for me, seem to act like they are scared of a man.

i have never heard that before.lol... your experiences are different then most men that i know... i would agree with abstract... we do love to touch a man.... and put on some of that southern charm when needed...

Oh, so now, money DOES "come into play"..lol!!

This was my point earlier and perhaps I was in error in how this point was made.


Well, obviously money is necessary. I said it wasn't my main criteria. If all other criteria are in place, we could definitely work around unequal finances.

Well, obviously money is necessary. I said it wasn't my main criteria. If all other criteria are in place, we could definitely work around unequal finances.

What! You mean you don't require "matching funds"...lol!!

"Did you read what I said earlier about the "open" and "closed" stance..lol!!

I dont try to figure any of it out anymore. Just live and see which way things go.."
__________________
BB]nah...i didnt omawale...but i will

i have never heard that before.lol... your experiences are different then most men that i know... i would agree with abstract... we do love to touch a man.... and put on some of that southern charm when needed...


you know, it's rather unfortunate that my eex and i couldnt work things out which resulted in my daughter being taken from me at the age of three..the upside though is that she grew up in atlanta than los angeles and probably is the better for it because that "southern charm" became a major part of her makeup while it seems that us growing up in cali with southern roots tended to lose that "charm" and hospitality. sometimes when we speak i am struck by how courteous she is southern living seems to have chilled her mother out as well who grew up in brookly and was accustomed to always being on the go whcih led to an aggressiveness that did not mix well with my kinda laid back manner. the more that i interact with these texas women i have to remind myself that texas IS in "the south" where 'flirting" is a BIG part of the culture...the funny thing is when women find out where i am from they seem to be even more interested and i expected the opposite...at times it makes me want to move even "deeper south"...lol!!! (which in a few years i may end up doing to be around even more Black women than there are around dallas...but dallas just has so much potential for an area that is growing)

"Did you read what I said earlier about the "open" and "closed" stance..lol!!

I dont try to figure any of it out anymore. Just live and see which way things go.."
__________________
BB]nah...i didnt omawale...but i will

no biggie...i was jokin'..

Body Language and eyes say a million words , I learn to go deeper
through the eyes and watch the body language what this reveal often
is the truth of her emotions what she feeling at that moment about you
many women now will just let you know but again with there mastered
art of body and eye language .