Isa:53:7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa:53:8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Servants of Jesus use this passage to validate prophesies about Jesus being killed on the Cross, but there exists another point of view of this passage that it not apart of main stream theology.
In further reading of the Old Testament one becomes aware that this passage is not referring to Jesus but it is actually prophesy about Jeremiah and specific events that occurred in his life. After Isaiah disappears Jeremiah is born about 57 years later. On average the prophesy would have occurred about 100 years before the actual event. These are the actual events that occurred in Jeremiah’s life that Isaiah prophesied about.

Jer:11:19: But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
55: I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
56: Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry.
57: Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: thou saidst, Fear not.
58: O Lord, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.

Jeremiah drowned and was brought back to life by GOD. With this new understanding we can now see that Isa 53:7 is actually referring to the headships of Jeremiah in delivering the Word of GOD to the Children of Israel as we fell further and further from GOD, even to the point of killing the prophets of GOD.

What’s up Music Producer. I ain’t been in here in years but I’ve done some brief reading of some recent posts in here and found that I agree with much of what you say. In this post though, you say that this prophesy of Isaiah points to Jeremiah and not Jesus. It’s my impression that you are a seeker of the truth so with this in mind I submit the following for your consideration:

You site Isa. 53:7,8 for consideration. Before I comment on these verses specifically, I wonder what you think of the previous verses? For example, verse 4 says “he hath borne our griefs, And carried our sorrows:” How do you equate this with Jeremiah and how not with Christ? And for context sake consider also the very next verse: 5 “he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him;” And this is the kicker, “AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED”
Verse 6 goes on to say “…And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This is all from the very same chapter(53) that you site from. Also, consider for further context the following from verse 10: “…When thou shalt make his soul an OFFERING FOR SIN…” And from verse 12: “…And he BARE THE SIN of many…”
What is your reasoning that this prophesy refers to Jeremiah and not Jesus? When you look at the whole chapter, and I encourage anyone to read it for themselves, the main thrust of the chapter speaks of one who is innocent being sacrificed for the sins of many.

Where in the book of Jeremiah, which is the account of his life and ministry, does it show that he was the sacrificial lamb and was sacrificed for the sins of many? Or any? That is clearly what Isaiah 53 talks about over and over.
Also in the same verse that you site, verse 8 it says the same thing: “…For the trasression of my people was he stricken…” When you put it all together it paints a fairly clear picture, and one that does not match Jeremiah and does match Jesus. Though I see in verse 7 where he mentions a lamb being brought to slaughter and how this is very similar to Jeremiah 11:19 which you site, but it doesn’t take into account the whole context of
this particular passage or the whole account of Jeremiah for that matter.

This brings me to my next question. When did Jeremiah drown? This is no account of this event in the book of Jeremiah nor anywhere else for that matter. Jeremiah was in a dungeon but he clearly did not die. You site Lamentations. I submit this for your consideration. 1)Lamentations is poetry and therefore figurative and symbolic and all that poetry tends to be 2) 54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
Is not meant to be taken literally. How do I know this? Well, a) you can find it in other poetic writings. Example: Psalms 62 where King David(who never drowned either) says from verse 1: Save me, O God; for the WATERS are come unto my soul. 2: I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
But more importantly b) you can read the account of Jeremiah in the dungeon.
I suggest reading the whole passage, even the whole book, but here are the most relevant parts:

Jeremiah 38:6 - Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.

Jeremiah 38:9 - My lord the king, these men have done evil in all that they have done to Jeremiah the prophet, whom they have cast into the dungeon; and he is like to die for hunger in the place where he is: for there is no more bread in the city.

Jeremiah 38:10 - Then the king commanded Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the dungeon, before he die.

Notice the “before he die” part above

Jeremiah 38:11 - So Ebedmelech took the men with him, and went into the house of the king under the treasury, and took thence old cast clouts and old rotten rags, and let them down by cords into the dungeon to Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 38:13 - So they drew up Jeremiah with cords, and took him up out of the dungeon: and Jeremiah remained in the court of the prison.

So as you see, Jeremiah didn’t die at all not for lack of bread, not for too much water.
I believe that you seek the truth, so I hope that this is taken as food for thought and not as persecution nor an attack of any kind.
God bless you and keep seeking.

Skrybble7:

It is good to see that some of us continue to be interested in a Book about GOD that has survived longer than we truly know and is the best seller in the world instead of looking for answers in obscure books and authors digging around in the dark for understanding and peace. It has been in front of us all this time.

Deu 30:
10: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11: For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12: It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13: Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14: But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Just as the LORD told us.

Now let us examine the Word and understanding. As the Children of Israel were making the transition from being the People of GOD to becoming Heathens they became extremely hostile towards anyone speaking and ministering Words from an old religion and an old GOD who had old ways, but they feared this GOD because they continued to have knowledge of ITs Power. Isaiah may be prophesying about other prophets and their lives and how they lived in trying to deliver the LORDs message to a people that turned against GOD and willingly over time became HIS enemy. The reason we see more of Jeremiah in Isaiah’s description is because we have a larger part or record of Jeremiahs life. So let us take it line by line.

1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

The arm of the LORD was revealed to the Prophets who is of the tribe Levi. What did GOD reveal to Jesus? Nothing, how do I know this, because GOD Himself is not depicted as Speaking in HIS own Words with HIS own Breath in the New Testament with the exception of these passages.

Mt:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mt:17:5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mk:1:11: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mk:9:7: And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Lk:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

And even then the New Testament fails to identify the Voice, so already we are made to assume. Just by examining this first verse of Isaiah 53 and the structure of the New Testament we see Jesus is out of the picture because GOD Himself is not depicted as Speaking anymore Words in the New Testament.

I will move on to the next verse but first I would like to know how you justify this first verse of Isaiah 53?

I agree with you in fact that the Bible is the most corroborated most detailed and reliable source of information in book form that exist. And generally people who choose not to believe it tend to lean heavily on less reliable sources and they require a lower standard for proof of reliability than they do for the Bible. Overlooking the whole time that when it comes to a faith… well… Faith is fundamental.

Anyway, I’m going to try and answer your questions as directly and specifically as I am able. And I’m hoping you will do the same.

You ask: “What did GOD reveal to Jesus?” Then you site Matthew, Mark and Luke, where when John baptized Jesus and the Spirit of the Lord descended in the form of a dove saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” as exceptions. You also suggest that there is no explicit reference of the voice being from God. Lol Man, I think you know better than that. Who else might that voice in the cloud have come from? But if you truly don’t know I will site from your own site of Luke. And in your site of Luke it says: Lk:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

See where it says the “Holy Ghost?” Exactly who do you associate the Holy Ghost with if not God?

Anyway my short answer to your question is from Matthew 17: 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This is from the time Peter, James, and John went up to the mountain with Jesus and Jesus was transfigured into glory before their eyes.

Here’s the thing about your question though. You seem to assume that only by word can the arm of the Lord be revealed. If the “arm” of the Lord represents His power than He is abundantly revealed in that God lit Jesus up on that mountain.

Nevertheless, in keeping with the parameters of your question I offer the above as one example.

Also when you talk about the word of God… Jesus “is” the Word of God.
Consider this from the book of John: John1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ok So your last question is how do I justify the first verse of Isaiah 53. The short answer is that I don’t. This is why. By itself it is merely a rhetorical question. By itself, there is not much in the way of context. What is there to justify?

Having answered your questions I return back to mine and ask again. Was Jeremiah ever a sacrifice for the sin of others? And how can you assert that he drowned when the Bible says explicitly that he did not die in that dungeon?

Looking forward to further discourse in these matters.
God bless.

I agree with you in fact that the Bible is the most corroborated most detailed and reliable source of information in book form that exist.




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I'm sure you have more to say uplift:deal:

I agree with you in fact that the Bible is the most corroborated most detailed and reliable source of information in book form that exist. And generally people who choose not to believe it tend to lean heavily on less reliable sources and they require a lower standard for proof of reliability than they do for the Bible. Overlooking the whole time that when it comes to a faith… well… Faith is fundamental.

Anyway, I’m going to try and answer your questions as directly and specifically as I am able. And I’m hoping you will do the same.

You ask: “What did GOD reveal to Jesus?” Then you site Matthew, Mark and Luke, where when John baptized Jesus and the Spirit of the Lord descended in the form of a dove saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” as exceptions. You also suggest that there is no explicit reference of the voice being from God. Lol Man, I think you know better than that. Who else might that voice in the cloud have come from? But if you truly don’t know I will site from your own site of Luke. And in your site of Luke it says: Lk:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

See where it says the “Holy Ghost?” Exactly who do you associate the Holy Ghost with if not God?

Anyway my short answer to your question is from Matthew 17: 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This is from the time Peter, James, and John went up to the mountain with Jesus and Jesus was transfigured into glory before their eyes.

Here’s the thing about your question though. You seem to assume that only by word can the arm of the Lord be revealed. If the “arm” of the Lord represents His power than He is abundantly revealed in that God lit Jesus up on that mountain.

Nevertheless, in keeping with the parameters of your question I offer the above as one example.

Also when you talk about the word of God… Jesus “is” the Word of God.
Consider this from the book of John: John1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ok So your last question is how do I justify the first verse of Isaiah 53. The short answer is that I don’t. This is why. By itself it is merely a rhetorical question. By itself, there is not much in the way of context. What is there to justify?

Having answered your questions I return back to mine and ask again. Was Jeremiah ever a sacrifice for the sin of others? And how can you assert that he drowned when the Bible says explicitly that he did not die in that dungeon?

Looking forward to further discourse in these matters.
God bless.
But what did GOD reveal to Jesus?
The problem of relating Jesus to Isaiah 53:1 is GOD after revealing or introducing Jesus to the reader as HIS Son, no longer Speaks in the New Testament. With out GOD Himself depicted as Speaking the reader has no idea as to anything being revealed to Jesus directly from GOD.

1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

The arm of the LORD is vengeance to destroy Israel and Judah as a Nation because of our breaking the Covenant and serving other gods. This was never revealed to Jesus because we never see Jesus and GOD conversing face to face or does Jesus ever say, “Thus saith the LORD” or “The LORD said unto me”, nor does any of the Apostles. With out this you (of your own free will and assumption) are replacing GOD with Jesus and Apostles because you are accounting their words as divine over the Word or Breath of GOD, just as you did with John in showing Jesus as the Word of GOD. John never once said, “Thus saith the LORD” or “The LORD said unto me”, John never explains to the reader that his information comes directly from GOD. Thus you have now placed Johns doctrine and belief over this…..

Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Notice it says, “Thus saith the LORD”.
When John speaks due to his lack of faith in GOD he voided this entire decree of GOD.

Deu: 18:
16: According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17: And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

John did not speak in the Name of GOD. Thus Johns words cannot be used for faith and understanding in and of GOD. John is a Servant of Jesus who desires to replace the GOD of the Old Testament with Jesus, this is Evil to the highest level.

Now, as for the passages that suggest GOD Speaking in the New Testament we have a problem. This passage contradicts the scenery that is presented in the New Testament.

Deut:18:16: According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

This means Jesus had to be the only person to see, hear and experience the Voice of GOD as Jesus being of the Children of Israel as stated, he would have also been subject to the agreement made in Deut:18:16. Thus the true situation is Jesus told his followers this story of GOD introducing him as HIS Son after he was baptized. This is the only way one can view those passages without them violating the Word of GOD. Other people outside of Jesus could not have seen, heard or experienced the Voice and Image of GOD.

Ok So your last question is how do I justify the first verse of Isaiah 53. The short answer is that I don’t. This is why. By itself it is merely a rhetorical question. By itself, there is not much in the way of context. What is there to justify?


Jer:11:20: But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

Jer:20:12: But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

Jer:46:10: For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

GOD revealed to Jeremiah his day of vengeance upon Israel, Judah and Kemet. Thus the prophesy of Isaiah 53:1 was fulfilled. It was Jeremiah that saw the final defeat and conquering, dispersion and enslavement of the people of the Old Testament, us.

Having answered your questions I return back to mine and ask again. Was Jeremiah ever a sacrifice for the sin of others? And how can you assert that he drowned when the Bible says explicitly that he did not die in that dungeon?

Jeremiah was the only witness to his death and resurrection. Once he was in the dungeon alone no one else can tell you what occurred except Jeremiah himself.

Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.

Lam:3:58: O Lord, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.


We are jumping ahead because I wanted to take Isaiah 53 line by line. But this would be the line you are referring to.

Isa:53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

English Bible:

Yet it pleased the Lord to crush him by sickness; if his soul shall consider it a reward for guilt, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the purpose of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

This is a web page that contains the Hebrew Text in which you can cut and paste the actual Hebrew and paste it into a translator.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

This is a web page that has a Hebrew to English translator, but you can use any translator you want.
http://milon.morfix.co.il/Default.aspx

Take each Hebrew word and plug it into a translator so that you can began to perceive for yourself the true meaning of the passage.

After you have done this we can talk about what you have found.

Continuing Isa 53 analysis:


2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


Understanding of who it is referring to.

Jer 1:
4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Notice Jeremiah explains to the reader that the Words are coming directly from GOD. The prophets of the Old Testament were equivalent to what we call today street bums and homeless people. With this appearance the prophets were also loud, boisterous and extremely expressive, just like ministers are today.

Thus this is the mental picture drawn by the description of the person(s) Isaiah is prophesying about. Imagine the people of Israel and Judah going about their everyday life dressed in their finest of clothing going about their everyday business such as going to the market or selling pottery going up and down in the streets of the city. Within this same image you have a Prophet of GOD standing on the street corner or in the city gates yelling, spiting and ministering the Word of GOD. At these times the citizens of the city were not paying the tenth, thus the Prophets became poor or surviving on scraps. Also the prophets didn’t shave or groom themselves. So we have this person (bum) standing in the midst of the city hoping and hollering about the destruction to come and acting out what GOD has informed him to do.

We can see one Prophet depicted as eating cows dung.

Ezek:4:12: And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

Ezek:4:15: Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

Imagine this bum (Prophet) standing in the midst of the city or in the gates of the city cooking and eating poop. He is unshaven, loud, yelling and spitting at the people while having poop dribbling from his beard.

That is the image prophesied about by Isaiah he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
More support for this being the demeanor of the Prophet.

2Kgs:9:11: Then Jehu came forth to the servants of his lord: and one said unto him, Is all well? wherefore came this mad fellow to thee? And he said unto them, Ye know the man, and his communication.

The Prophets became considered as mad (crazy) people that no one wanted to deal with.

Jesus did not fit these description in any way.

I think I see a clear point of disagreement that may or may not make this discussion moot.
You require a “Thus saith the Lord” qualification in order to believe that the Lord is speaking. I don’t know exactly what your basis is for believing this to be the exclusive indicator that God is speaking.

On the other hand, I believe as it is written in the same book, that Jesus is the Word of God. So if He is the Word of God it stands to reason that each time Jesus speaks, God is in fact speaking. So on the basis of scripture, I know Jesus to be the Word of God.

Given this, I refer back to your question, “What did God reveal to Jesus?”
I would say God revealed to Jesus everything that came out of Jesus mouth throughout the whole New Testament. Every parable, every prophesy, every expounding of the law, every miracle, and surely the crucifixion that He suffered on our behalf just as Isaiah described.

However if the case is that you do not believe in the new testament than there is no point in this particular discussion to deal with the new testament.

Again, I ask exactly what indication was there that Jeremiah died for our sins?
I see that you require absolute strict adherence to the explicit “thus saith the Lord”
In order to believe the Word of God, yet no such standard is applied to this believed death and resurrection of Jeremiah. Nothing that you have sited actually shows he died and was resurrected. Let alone that he died for our sins.
You say that only Jeremiah himself can tell us what happened. I say that he did tell us.
Jeremiah wrote the book Jeremiah. And it explicitly says that he did not die.
You make reference to lamentations and site figurative, poetic speech as an explicit declaration of his death and resurrection. But I’ve shown you were that figure of speech was used elsewhere by others and clearly did not mean what you claim.
Do you believe King David died and was resurrected? Psalms is FULL of that poetic language.
So the focal point of my initiating this discussion with you is to establish weather or not Jeremiah died and what’s more, that he died for our sins. Isaiah does not bare this out.
If you have a figurative statement in Lamentations and a literal statement in Jeremiah(both of which Jeremiah wrote) which carries more weight?

Also I’m sure I’ll find those translation sites very interesting if not very useful.
God bless

I'm sure you have more to say uplift:deal:

Of course, but why bother? :boring:

You site: Jer 1:
4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I site: Isaiah 44: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Same Isaiah but he’s referring to Cyrus here. God knows everyone from the womb…

You say: The prophets of the Old Testament were equivalent to what we call today street bums and homeless people.

I say consider Daniel, Joseph, King David himself to name a few. And even your Isaiah. They spent most if not all their lives in very very influential positions.

You say: We can see one Prophet depicted as eating cows dung.

I say, he didn’t “eat” the dung he prepared his food with it. If I’m not mistaken it makes for cooking fuel when no wood is available.

They accused Jesus of everything under the sun not only being mad but having a devil etc…


Anyway, I’d love to discuss a myriad topics with you but for now I’d like to stick to the first questions of Jeremiah dieing and being resurrected and for our sins at that. I could be wrong
But I don’t think this was even close to being established.

I think I see a clear point of disagreement that may or may not make this discussion moot.
You require a “Thus saith the Lord” qualification in order to believe that the Lord is speaking. I don’t know exactly what your basis is for believing this to be the exclusive indicator that God is speaking.

On the other hand, I believe as it is written in the same book, that Jesus is the Word of God. So if He is the Word of God it stands to reason that each time Jesus speaks, God is in fact speaking. So on the basis of scripture, I know Jesus to be the Word of God.

Given this, I refer back to your question, “What did God reveal to Jesus?”
I would say God revealed to Jesus everything that came out of Jesus mouth throughout the whole New Testament. Every parable, every prophesy, every expounding of the law, every miracle, and surely the crucifixion that He suffered on our behalf just as Isaiah described.

However if the case is that you do not believe in the new testament than there is no point in this particular discussion to deal with the new testament.

Again, I ask exactly what indication was there that Jeremiah died for our sins?
I see that you require absolute strict adherence to the explicit “thus saith the Lord”
In order to believe the Word of God, yet no such standard is applied to this believed death and resurrection of Jeremiah. Nothing that you have sited actually shows he died and was resurrected. Let alone that he died for our sins.
You say that only Jeremiah himself can tell us what happened. I say that he did tell us.
Jeremiah wrote the book Jeremiah. And it explicitly says that he did not die.
You make reference to lamentations and site figurative, poetic speech as an explicit declaration of his death and resurrection. But I’ve shown you were that figure of speech was used elsewhere by others and clearly did not mean what you claim.
Do you believe King David died and was resurrected? Psalms is FULL of that poetic language.
So the focal point of my initiating this discussion with you is to establish weather or not Jeremiah died and what’s more, that he died for our sins. Isaiah does not bare this out.
If you have a figurative statement in Lamentations and a literal statement in Jeremiah(both of which Jeremiah wrote) which carries more weight?

Also I’m sure I’ll find those translation sites very interesting if not very useful.
God bless

I think I see a clear point of disagreement that may or may not make this discussion moot.
You require a “Thus saith the Lord” qualification in order to believe that the Lord is speaking. I don’t know exactly what your basis is for believing this to be the exclusive indicator that God is speaking.


Deu 18:
16: According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17: And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

How do you perceive that Scripture?


On the other hand, I believe as it is written in the same book, that Jesus is the Word of God. So if He is the Word of God it stands to reason that each time Jesus speaks, God is in fact speaking. So on the basis of scripture, I know Jesus to be the Word of God.

GOD Himself never informs you of that. That type of perception is exactly how the people that conquered Israel and Judah need you to think and believe so that you will reject your own GOD, which is our Power.

Gen:32:28: And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

When our conquers read those words they immediately began devising a plan to keep the Children of Israel away from GOD. The New Testament serves to accomplish that.


However if the case is that you do not believe in the new testament than there is no point in this particular discussion to deal with the new testament.

I believe in the New Testament in that they fulfill much prophesy from the Old Testament, such as…

Deut:4:28: And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

Deut:28:36: The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

Deut:28:64: And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

There are many more but you should began to see GODs point of view. The Old Testament ends with the Covenant broken and the nation of Israel, Judah and Kemet destroyed as it is this day, yet you ignore reality and believe Jesus is and was the Messiah even though our Kingdoms set in ruins and infested by the very people that had a hand in conquering us as a nation and religion.

Ezek:7:24: Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.

That is how the Old Testament ends and that is how the entire land sets today. The original people are scattered in the earth and descendants of slaves or suffering in hunger and starvation, yet you say our Messiah has come and died for our sins. If that were the case all of the curses GOD placed upon us for breaking the Covenant would have been canceled through Jesus’ death. The reality of life, history and our condition today proves the New Testament to be a fabrication that tests your Love for GOD.

Again, I ask exactly what indication was there that Jeremiah died for our sins?

You need to look at the web pages I presented to you and get a Hebrew word for word interpretation of the passage. Once you do that then we can began looking at your question because the Hebrew passage does not support a soul or person being sacrificed for sin. GOD conceders the sacrifice of humans an abomination.

Deut:12:31: Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Yet you believe GOD Himself would commit such an act with Jesus, HIS Son. See how believing in Jesus as presented by heathens causes you to blaspheme decreed Doctrine of GOD, decreed LAWs of the LORD?

You can not serve and have faith in the New Testament as presented with out denouncing the bulk of the Old Testament. You can not serve two masters.

You say: You need to look at the web pages I presented to you and get a Hebrew word for word interpretation of the passage. Once you do that then we can began looking at your question because the Hebrew passage does not support a soul or person being sacrificed for sin. GOD conceders the sacrifice of humans an abomination.

This is from the very source you site: 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.' 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

It is very clear to me that this is about someone who was sacrificed(killed) for the sin of others. It’s all right there. And it “PLEASED” the Lord. I could get into the fact that Jesus is more than just a man, but truly it would be pointless.

I see that you choose out the parts of the Bible that you want to believe. I find that to be a sad mistake made by so many. I must say that the Bible is truly harmonious within itself as my many years of study have born out. One big problem is that many take bits and pieces of the Bible and twist it to their own ends. I’ve found over the years that biblical discussions with people who do not believe in the Bible is usually futile. Also the same with people who choose out the parts they wish to believe.
Don’t get me wrong, I ain’t mad at a brotha. But if we can’t get passed the fact that the very sources you site don’t say what you think they say i.e. Jeremiah drowning and being resurrected for some unknown purpose, than this whole discussion is moot.
I wish you peace and blessings.

You site: Jer 1:
4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I site: Isaiah 44: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Same Isaiah but he’s referring to Cyrus here. God knows everyone from the womb…

You say: The prophets of the Old Testament were equivalent to what we call today street bums and homeless people.

I say consider Daniel, Joseph, King David himself to name a few. And even your Isaiah. They spent most if not all their lives in very very influential positions.

You say: We can see one Prophet depicted as eating cows dung.

I say, he didn’t “eat” the dung he prepared his food with it. If I’m not mistaken it makes for cooking fuel when no wood is available.

They accused Jesus of everything under the sun not only being mad but having a devil etc…


Anyway, I’d love to discuss a myriad topics with you but for now I’d like to stick to the first questions of Jeremiah dieing and being resurrected and for our sins at that. I could be wrong
But I don’t think this was even close to being established.

You site: Jer 1:
4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I site: Isaiah 44: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Same Isaiah but he’s referring to Cyrus here. God knows everyone from the womb…

You are loosing focus as to Isaiah 53:2 being a reference to Jesus. I have no idea as to your reference to Isa 44:24 in relating to this topic. It has absolutely no reference in you claim that Isa 53:2 is prophesying about Jesus. If it does you need to elaborate.


You say: The prophets of the Old Testament were equivalent to what we call today street bums and homeless people.

No, this is what I said…….

The Prophets became considered as mad (crazy) people that no one wanted to deal with.

They “BECAME”. As Israel and Judah went deeper and deeper in becoming heathens they disrespected and despised the Prophet more and more.

I say consider Daniel, Joseph, King David himself to name a few. And even your Isaiah. They spent most if not all their lives in very very influential positions.

Now you are starting to take things out of contexts. Daniel is after the destruction of our kingdom. Joseph was before we were formed as a nation and kingdom. David the King was during a time when we were being loyal to GOD. During Isaiah’s time we began to see this roller coaster of ups and downs as to the well being of the Prophet.

As the Kings of the Children of Israel and Judah fell from the Covenant of GOD and started practicing heathen religions there would be no need for a Prophet of GOD to be within the royal assembly because the Prophets of GOD would have not ministered heathen religions thus they would have been banned, thrown out, fired and without a job during the times of Israel and Judah serving heathen religions and they would not have enjoyed influential positions during these low times.

I say, he didn’t “eat” the dung he prepared his food with it. If I’m not mistaken it makes for cooking fuel when no wood is available.

Ezekiel 4 paints a different picture from what you want to accept or believe. But if it was only relating to using the dung for cooking fuel why would Ezekiel say this…..

14: Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.


?

I see by your references and disconnected comments that you are starting to loose ground because when the Old Testament are examined with detail and studied as an entire text there is no foundation for presenting Jesus as he is presented, thus Servants of Jesus have to start grabbing at straws and making disconnected or out of context references which is how the entire New Testament has been established. It is a cut and paste religion invented to keep a specific bloodline of people from seeing and recognizing their GOD.

Ok let me try again…

If this: Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
55: I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
Means that Jeremiah drowned
Than does this: Psalms 69: 1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. 2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
Mean that David drown also?(side note: I said Psalm 62 but it is Psalm 69)

Or maybe it’s the part he says about being “cut off”
So than does this: Psalms 31:22 - For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.

mean that David drowned?

Or how about Jonah? At least here there was some real water envolved:Jonah 2: 5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Did Jonah drown?
The connection being the “figurative” and “symbolic” language.
Very simple questions… I’m looking for a yes or no here.
Did David drown? Did Jonah drown?

guess I'll check back later...

:teach:

Music Producer:

The correct title of your thread should be Prophecies, not "Prophesies."

The word "prophecy" (prophe-cee) is a noun...a prediction uttered under Divine inspiration. Its plural is "prophecies"...e.g., the prophecies of Isaiah.

The word "prophesy" (prophe-si) is a verb...meaning to predict or reveal through Divine inspiration. Its plural is "prophesies"...e.g., Isaiah prophesies.

Ok let me try again…

If this: Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
55: I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
Means that Jeremiah drowned
Than does this: Psalms 69: 1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. 2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
Mean that David drown also?(side note: I said Psalm 62 but it is Psalm 69)

Or maybe it’s the part he says about being “cut off”
So than does this: Psalms 31:22 - For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.

mean that David drowned?

Or how about Jonah? At least here there was some real water envolved:Jonah 2: 5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Did Jonah drown?
The connection being the “figurative” and “symbolic” language.
Very simple questions… I’m looking for a yes or no here.
Did David drown? Did Jonah drown?

Or how about Jonah? At least here there was some real water envolved:

From this statement I see that you know exactly, exactly what you are doing and that is why I did not answer you the first time because you already know and understand clearly that you are mixing metaphoric speech with real-world description. Why should I address something in witch you already know that you are intentionally being deceptive in order to defend your service to Jesus? GOD knows when you are playing dumb.

As I said “you can not serve two masters without making one of them less” unfortunately you have chosen to make the GOD in the Old Testament less.

Further more the original passage in which you are leaning on and intentionally misrepresenting the Old Testament for…….

Isa:53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Does not say that in the Hebrew Script which is why you need to do a Hebrew word for word analysis, but you will not do the analysis, because you already know that the passage has nothing to do with a human sacrifice for sin, because you already know GOD would not commit to sacrificing his Son.

You already know the entire New Testament theology causes GOD to commit abomination according to HIS own doctrine.

Deut:12:31: Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.


The problem is you don’t care because you have been brainwashed to love Jesus more than GOD. You don’t care that the New Testament theology completely trashes Deut:12:31. You don’t care that it trashes Ex:20:3. The only time you believe or have faith in the Old Testament is when you can use one or two passages to confirm your Jesus, all the rest of the text to you mean absolutely nothing.

In defending the Son against the Father you actually believe that you are doing good and will be reworded. When the time comes Jesus himself will ask you, “why have you denied my Father”?

Do you actually believe that Jesus is going to stand with you with his sword drawn against GOD? You are in for a rude awakening.

:teach:

Music Producer:

The correct title of your thread should be Prophecies, not "Prophesies."

The word "prophecy" (prophe-cee) is a noun...a prediction uttered under Divine inspiration. Its plural is "prophecies"...e.g., the prophecies of Isaiah.

The word "prophesy" (prophe-si) is a verb...meaning to predict or reveal through Divine inspiration. Its plural is "prophesies"...e.g., Isaiah prophesies.
Yea, I saw that but unfortunately I don’t know how to go back and fix it.

Peace.

I simply asked a straight forward question. Anyone can see that. No deception whatsoever. You just didn't have a true answer for it.

I went to the site you posted, I used the site you posted what more do you want?

Point out exactly where I mixed metaphoric speech with real world description.
You have faulty reasoning you make faulty claims based on, at best, faulty information
That you carved up and picked and chose according to what you wish to believe.
Also I see that you accuse me of the very tactics you employ. Those tactics are the same ones employed by the conquerors and oppressors you complain about.

What it comes down to is you can’t answer the simple question and maintain any semblance of credibility or logic. I could go through each of your claims and then to the old testament and see clearly your mistakes as plain as day.

One more simple question for you. I used your site. And your preferred translation(AGAIN)
And saw this: Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Why would it say in Isaiah 53:5 “…And with His stripes we are healed…?” What exactly does that mean to you? That we are healed by Jeremiah’s…”stripes?” And those would be stripes from drowning in a dungeon? As opposed to Jesus who was whipped?
Exactly what part of Jeremiah’s “alleged” death healed us? Where at all in Jeremiah or Lamentations does one find this?

The fact is in plain site, that you are incorrect in a multitude of claims you’ve made.
I methodically tried to approach each fallacy one by one but you refuse to see or acknowledge the first one let alone the rest of them.

So think as you will see as you will and may God bless you.

I simply asked a straight forward question. Anyone can see that. No deception whatsoever. You just didn't have a true answer for it.

I went to the site you posted, I used the site you posted what more do you want?

Point out exactly where I mixed metaphoric speech with real world description.
You have faulty reasoning you make faulty claims based on, at best, faulty information
That you carved up and picked and chose according to what you wish to believe.
Also I see that you accuse me of the very tactics you employ. Those tactics are the same ones employed by the conquerors and oppressors you complain about.

What it comes down to is you can’t answer the simple question and maintain any semblance of credibility or logic. I could go through each of your claims and then to the old testament and see clearly your mistakes as plain as day.

One more simple question for you. I used your site. And your preferred translation(AGAIN)
And saw this: Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Why would it say in Isaiah 53:5 “…And with His stripes we are healed…?” What exactly does that mean to you? That we are healed by Jeremiah’s…”stripes?” And those would be stripes from drowning in a dungeon? As opposed to Jesus who was whipped?
Exactly what part of Jeremiah’s “alleged” death healed us? Where at all in Jeremiah or Lamentations does one find this?

The fact is in plain site, that you are incorrect in a multitude of claims you’ve made.
I methodically tried to approach each fallacy one by one but you refuse to see or acknowledge the first one let alone the rest of them.

So think as you will see as you will and may God bless you.

I simply asked a straight forward question. Anyone can see that. No deception whatsoever. You just didn't have a true answer for it.

Yes I did, I told you that you need to do a Hebrew word analysis of the passage you are referring to because that passage has nothing to do with a human sacrifice. That particular passage varies from Book to book even in the Jewish sect. When you run into passages such as this it becomes time to do some work and analyze the source. But it is clear you are not willing to do that.


I went to the site you posted, I used the site you posted what more do you want?

You did not do a Hebrew word analysis. Why not?


Point out exactly where I mixed metaphoric speech with real world description.

OK, in your post #15 when you compared Lamentations a real world description of real water too Psalms which you already understood as being metaphoric water to describe the way evil flowed over the Psalmists head or how evil was overwhelming the Psalmist. You were just hoping I was too stupid to realize the difference.

Then you eventually found one that is dealing with real water from the story of Jonah. The problem with this is the entire story of Jonah is metaphoric for the purpose of teaching that GOD can and will forgive if one seeks HIS forgiveness and that you cannot run from GOD. This is why the story of Jonah has no time stamp. This would be a time stamp.

1: The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

See how it informs the reader of the Kings and their reign? That is a time stamp. Jonah is absent of a time stamp to let the reader understand that it is a metaphoric or allegorical teaching.

Due to the fact that you yourself typed these words in post #15, “At least here there was some real water envolved:”. You have revealed through your own words that you clearly understood that you are mixing and twisting real world descriptions of “water” with a metaphoric description of “water”.

Basically you knew and understood you were lying.


One more simple question for you. I used your site. And your preferred translation(AGAIN)
And saw this: Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Once again this is prophesy of the Prophets to come. This would be one of those real life descriptions that fits to Isaiah 53:5.

Ezek:4:4: Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

Lamentations is straight up and down poetry...
poetry man, poetry... What do you think poetry is?

The book of Jeremiah talks about this exact time in a more
literal form and not once in any language does he say he drowned and was
ressurected. And certainly not that we were healed by his stripes.

Psalms are poems and mostly songs... (get the connection?)
I told you this from the gate...

A hebrew word analysis? Come on man... I went to your site
I saw and posted your translation word for word...

And you still have not answered the basic questions.

And by the way Jonah was speaking figuratively mixed in with literally.
Notice he didn't mention the "BIG FISH" That he was inside the whole time.
And you think this was fictional? Man you need to study the history of Ninevah.

You still haven't answered the very simple questions....

You still haven't answered the very simple questions....You'll find this is common, which is why no one else has really responded here.... :fyi:

Lamentations is straight up and down poetry...
poetry man, poetry... What do you think poetry is?

The book of Jeremiah talks about this exact time in a more
literal form and not once in any language does he say he drowned and was
ressurected. And certainly not that we were healed by his stripes.

Psalms are poems and mostly songs... (get the connection?)
I told you this from the gate...

A hebrew word analysis? Come on man... I went to your site
I saw and posted your translation word for word...

And you still have not answered the basic questions.

And by the way Jonah was speaking figuratively mixed in with literally.
Notice he didn't mention the "BIG FISH" That he was inside the whole time.
And you think this was fictional? Man you need to study the history of Ninevah.

You still haven't answered the very simple questions....
It is the answer that you reject. So I will answer you again.

Isaiah 53:10 in its Hebrew format has absolutely nothing to do with expressing a human sacrifice for sin.

I gave you the tools to do your own Hebrew word analysis because I know you will not take my word for it. In doing your own analysis you will discover the question you ask is mute because it has no bases. Once you realize this you will see it is futile trying to figure out who died and was resurrected because in realty the passage actually could be referring to the entire Nation of Israel itself as being the Servant.

I asked you to do the analyses then we could talk about it together but I can see that understanding is not your objective. Your objective only is to confirm Jesus and that is what makes Servants of Jesus blind to Scripture.

You'll find this is common, which is why no one else has really responded here.... :fyi:
What everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

You are taking bits and pieces and taking them waaaay out of context. If you go up a bit you’ll see that I ask you about verse 5 and the “With his stripes we were healed” part. One of the points is to get you to look at the whole passage as it relates to the whole prophesy.


Also I don’t see where Ezekiel laying on his sides equates to “WOUNDS” or “STRIPES”
Not to mention that he didn’t die and get resurrected either. There are so many finer points here that I can’t even begin to get into with you such as the distinction between symbolizing or being a sign of sin and actually being a substitute for sin…….. but since we don’t seem to have a distinction between literal and figurative or fact and fiction it would be pointless…..

You claim that Ezekiel “ate” dung but the exact ingredients and daily amounts of what he ate is right there
And to this day people of that region cook food with dung.

Do you think he had a woodpile close by? Maybe some charcoal? Perhaps a hibachi grill? :cook: I’m playing… He had dung as a source of fuel for fire.

Ezekiel 4:
9 Take thou also unto thee WHEAT, and BARLEY, and BEANS, and LENTILES, and MILLET, and FITCHES, and put them in one vessel, and MAKE THEE BREAD THEREOF, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. 10 And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. 11 Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink. 12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

way too much of what you claim is plain wrong. And all the Hebrew analysis in the world can't hide that truth

And again... LAMENTATIONS IS POETRY......... "HEBREW" POETRY AT THAT....

You'll find this is common, which is why no one else has really responded here.... :fyi:

Yeah, I'm feelin' kind of dumb......

You are taking bits and pieces and taking them waaaay out of context. If you go up a bit you’ll see that I ask you about verse 5 and the “With his stripes we were healed” part. One of the points is to get you to look at the whole passage as it relates to the whole prophesy.


Also I don’t see where Ezekiel laying on his sides equates to “WOUNDS” or “STRIPES”
Not to mention that he didn’t die and get resurrected either. There are so many finer points here that I can’t even begin to get into with you such as the distinction between symbolizing or being a sign of sin and actually being a substitute for sin…….. but since we don’t seem to have a distinction between literal and figurative or fact and fiction it would be pointless…..

You claim that Ezekiel “ate” dung but the exact ingredients and daily amounts of what he ate is right there
And to this day people of that region cook food with dung.

Do you think he had a woodpile close by? Maybe some charcoal? Perhaps a hibachi grill? :cook: I’m playing… He had dung as a source of fuel for fire.

Ezekiel 4:
9 Take thou also unto thee WHEAT, and BARLEY, and BEANS, and LENTILES, and MILLET, and FITCHES, and put them in one vessel, and MAKE THEE BREAD THEREOF, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. 10 And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. 11 Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink. 12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

way too much of what you claim is plain wrong. And all the Hebrew analysis in the world can't hide that truth

And again... LAMENTATIONS IS POETRY......... "HEBREW" POETRY AT THAT....

You are taking bits and pieces and taking them waaaay out of context. If you go up a bit you’ll see that I ask you about verse 5 and the “With his stripes we were healed” part. One of the points is to get you to look at the whole passage as it relates to the whole prophesy.

Also I don’t see where Ezekiel laying on his sides equates to “WOUNDS” or “STRIPES”
Not to mention that he didn’t die and get resurrected either. There are so many finer points here that I can’t even begin to get into with you such as the distinction between symbolizing or being a sign of sin and actually being a substitute for sin…….. but since we don’t seem to have a distinction between literal and figurative or fact and fiction it would be pointless…..

I suggested that we analyze the whole chapter but you are not interested in doing that even though you also suggested it. The only parts of the entire chapter that you are interested in are the bits and peaces that the Jesus theology uses. When I go up a bit I see your post #2 exploiting the verse that I have been addressing, Isaiah 53:10. Now that I have given you the tools to truly do your own analyses of the Hebrew for Isa 53:10, you jump to another verse without addressing or revealing your analysis.

So now you have jumped to Isaiah 53:5.

5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

And I countered with this:

Ezek:4:4: Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

If you lie on one side for 390 days your body will bruise he was bruised for our iniquities . Your body will also develop bedsores, wounds But he was wounded for our transgressions . And what is it that GOD tells Ezekiel the reasoning for him barring or performing this suffering thou shalt bear their iniquity .

This is the only part you have any interest in because you associate it with Jesus being whipped and with his stripes we are healed. This is referring to the stripes, suffering and woes the Prophets would encounter in delivering the LORDs massage to Israel and Judah. Israel and Judahs anger and rebellion towards GOD was taken out on the Prophets.


You claim that Ezekiel “ate” dung but the exact ingredients and daily amounts of what he ate is right there
And to this day people of that region cook food with dung.

Then why did Ezekiel say this………

Ezek 4:
14: Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

?


And all the Hebrew analysis in the world can't hide that truth

I see you have yet to do an analysis on Isaiah 53:10, why not? Are you afraid to see that you have been beguiled by the white mans intentional mistranslation to trick you to believe?

Do it!

Ok… here we go…


King James Version Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

From the site you posted Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

Having “analyzed” them side by side again I see no significant difference. As with the rest of the passage the context is still the same. An innocent one “PAYING” for the sins of many. “DIEING” for the sins of many. Do I have to post the entire chapter from your site? It’s like the fourth time I read it.(though I didn’t post verse 10) it says essentially the same thing…

You assume Ezekiel got bruises and some far fetched stripes from laying on his side.
But this trifling point aside. Analyze this: EZEKIEL DID NOT DIE and then be resurrected.

So it doesn’t follow logically or any other common sense way that anyone was healed or saved by a death that didn’t happen.

Also Ezekiel did not “pay” for anyone else’s sins. Ezekiel was a sign. A living illustration of what was about to happen to them. A living symbol of the coming siege and exile from the promised land. Just read Ezekiel the whole book not bits and pieces. Had Ezekiel “PAYED” for their sins like it says in Isaiah’s prophesy, why would the siege and exile still happen? And again…


Now tell me how Jeremiah or Ezekial fit the following from your same Hebrew translation site of the same prophesy:

5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Can’t be this neither of them were crushed nor bruised according to their books.

6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.


Again neither “paid” for anyone’s sins. Jeremiah warned of their coming destruction
And Ezekiel acted it out, kind of like a mime. In both cases they did not stop the coming destruction.

7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

This verse by itself bares some similarity, but it is not a verse by itself…. And again neither prophets were slaughtered here.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

This means “DEAD”. Neither died. This also says he died for other’s sins. If neither prophet died how could the have died for other’s sins? Nonsensical…

9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

In case it wasn’t clear enough about the dieing part… ok so which one’s grave was with the wicked? Which one had a rich man’s tomb?

And of course that takes us to verse 10… again…

So your claim is Jeremiah died and was resurrected. You claim that Lamentations is literal.

Jeremiah did not drown and LAMENTATIONS IS POETRY MAN, POETRY.
If you want literal, or as close as you’ll get. Go to the book of Jeremiah. And again, not only does it not say he died. It says their wasn’t much water in the pit or dungeon he was in.
In your favorite Hebrew translation:
6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the pit of Malchiah the king's son, that was in the court of the guard; and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the pit there was no water, but mire; and Jeremiah sank in the mire.

There it is…
Anyway do you think that if these people had but him in a place where he could drown
that they’d be concerned about him starving from lack of bread? Seems to me he’d have more urgent problems than lack of bread if he was drowning… I don’t know about you but the first thing I think about when I see someone drowning is that I bet they’d like a nice chunk of bread.
Again from your Hebrew translation site:

9 'My lord the king, these men have done evil in all that they have done to Jeremiah the prophet, whom they have cast into the pit; and he is like to die in the place where he is because of the famine; for there is no more bread in the city.'


But it’s all academic because “JEREMIAH DID NOT DROWN”

10 Then the king commanded Ebed-melech the Ethiopian, saying: 'Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the pit, before he die
11 So Ebed-melech took the men with him, and went into the house of the king under the treasury, and took thence worn clouts and worn rags, and let them down by cords into the pit to Jeremiah.
12 And Ebed-melech the Ethiopian said unto Jeremiah: 'Put now these worn clouts and rags under thine armholes under the cords.' And Jeremiah did so.
13 So they drew up Jeremiah with the cords, and took him up out of the pit; and Jeremiah remained in the court of the guard.

Again… This is from your site so maybe you should analyze that before you claim Jeremiah drowned and was resurrected…
Ok it’s there for all to see. I think that’s about all the energy I’m going to waste………

Once again Isaiah 53:10 has nothing to do with GOD sacrificing a human being for the sins of others. If you insist on believing it does you are willingly degrading GOD to violating HIS own LAW and committing what GOD Himself classifies as an abomination.

Deut:12:31: Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

You willingly trash GODs LAW of your own freewill and it is your own choice to ignore the LAW of GOD through your love for Jesus.

This is the whole purpose of the KJV Bible it presents a free will choice between good and evil.

When you start denouncing the Father to protect your faith in anything else you are committing one of the greatest of evils towards GOD.

The Servants of GOD / The Father are the ones that will inherit the earth not servants of Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Gabriel or the Apostles.

Your entire concept of a soul being sacrificed to GOD is an ABOMINATION.

You'll find this is common, which is why no one else has really responded here.... :fyi:

You noticed that too? Well tarnation.......

By the way, I find the hypocrisy of the Bible to be detestable; in one breath, it's an "ABOMINATION" to sacrifice a human to "their gods", yet Abraham was almost ready to sacrifice his VERY OWN SON to "GOD the FATHER".

How ironic. Maybe this is that whole "God is a Jealous God" thing people are always talking about. :thinking:

But he didn’t, he was simply being tested. Thus the sacrifice of a Human being continues to be an Abomination. Which means the entire concept of the New Testament is an abomination. One of the reasons GOD destroyed Kemet, Israel and Judah is because we started sacrificing humans.

And yes, there have been Mummies found in Egypt in which their face is contorted in horror and extreme pain and continues to have the look of an abhorred death and yes they were burnt.

Why do you pretend I don’t answer questions?

I have answered every question put to me on this board.

I even made a post asking people if they needed an answer to something to just ask it. Your smirk comments don’t work.

In all do respect you think the old testament is the truth but the new testament is fictitious so why when the new testament was written the two were not seperated book wise?

In all do respect you think the old testament is the truth but the new testament is fictitious so why when the new testament was written the two were not seperated book wise?
Only the people that destroyed Jerusalem have attached the Old and New Testament.
Originally there was no New Testament until the Romans.

I believe in the New Testament just as I believe in the Old Testament. But I understand the New Testament to be the works and god of the people that conquered Egypt, Israel and Judah which were all originally inhabited by African tribes that went into slavery and became scattered in the earth.

The New Testament is a work of the Dark-side because it causes one to reject the Greater Light for the lesser light.

If one accepts the Greater Light, from the point of view of the Greater Light Jesus was not walking the earth during the time of the Roman Empire. Jesus actually lived and died during the Babylonian Empire.

Isa:8:4: For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.

That is the GOD given record of Immanuel being an enfant to young to cry dada or mama during the fall of the Assyrian Empire and the rise of the Babylonian Empire.

All of those people that believe Jesus existed during the Roman Empire reject what GOD informs us of.

That is the nature of the Dark-side; it causes you to reject GOD in some way. The LORD tests our faith and loyalty in HIM.

Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The New Testament is a glorious plan of GOD to divide the earth between the people that hate him and the people that do not.

Deut:13:3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.