The time has come for African-American Muslims of various persuasions to come together and dialogue about the differences that ideologically separate the African-American Muslim community in this country. We should certainly agree that it is time to dispel those “first-resurrection” myths that are ingrained in the psyche of many African-American Muslims.

These various mythical beliefs are basically divisive, and they tend to conjure up elements of “spookism” in the religion of Islam. I am referring to phrases like: “The Asiatic black man”; “Yakub, the mad scientist, created the white man who is the devil of the world”; and “God visited America in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard.” These fallacious statements are not only false and confusing, but also blatantly blasphemous, because they are not substantiated by Qur’anic scripture or ahadith.

If there was a so-called “Asiatic black man,” he was the dark-skinned native of India and Sri Lanka, who also has straight hair. This feature distinguishes him from the African, who has kinky hair. Many “first-rez” Muslims postulate the theory that “once upon a time the whole world was Asia, and that the indigenous people of that continent migrated to the continent of Africa.” This theory has been proven false, for it is the general consensus of opinion among the world’s most eminent paleontologists that Africa is the cradle of civilization. Are we to believe there were no people in Africa when people were in Asia? Or that Asian people migrated to Africa and found no one there? The “first-rez” ideologues would be more correct if they said that once upon a time the whole world was Africa!

“Yakub, The Mad Scientist” is another one of those “first-rez fables” that originated in the figment of someone’s imagination. The name “Yakub” is the Hebrew and Arabic equivalent of the English “Jacob,” and translates “supplanter” in the Hebrew language. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham and the son of Isaac, according to Biblical tradition. He had a twin brother named Esau who was some minutes older, and therefore was the rightful heir to their father’s birthright. But Jacob used deception and induced Esau to sell him his birthright, then conspired with his mother Rebecca (who favored him) to steal his brother’s blessing by deceiving his father through cunning means (Gen. 25:31-34; 27:1-36). Thus the origin of the meaning of his name, “supplanter.”

The Holy Qur’an identifies 28 prophets by name in sura 6:83-90, and Yakub, or Jacob, is the eighth prophet. Surely this Yakub is not the “mad scientist” of the “first-rez” dogma. Then who was their Yakub? What was his ethnicity? When did he live and in what country? And how did he “create” the white man?

According to historian C. Eric Lincoln’s Black Muslims in America, W.D. Fard (Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad) was an Arab immigrant who came to this country in 1930 and became a traveling salesman based in Detroit (the largest concentration of Arabs in the Western Hemisphere live in and around the Detroit area). He came in contact with the African-American community of that city and began speaking to them about the “lost-found nation” of Islam. Before his disappearance in 1934, he had established an effective organization called the “Black Muslims of America.” His work was carried forward by his closest assistant, one Elijah Poole, a former leader in Marcus Garvey’s organization. He became Elijah Muhammad, and began teaching his followers that “God had come to this country in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard Muhammad.”

The organization came to be called “The Nation of Islam,” and, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975, became the “World Community of Islam in the West,” headed by his son Wallace, who became Imam Warithudin Muhammad. Imam Muhammad later changed the organization’s name to the “American Muslim Mission,” and, in 1985, disbanded the AMM, stating that he was no longer the leader of the so-called “Black Muslims” in the United States. He suggested that Muslim communities organize themselves around the mosques in collaboration with their Muslim brethren from around the world. With the announcement that he and the members of his organization were an integral part of the universal Islamic community - and did not need a separate identity of their own - the transition from a cult-like sect based on elements of ethnic nationalism to the universality of orthodox Islam became a reality.

Imam Warithudin Muhammad introduced many fundamental changes in the organization, and, in fact, through subtle and gradual measures, transformed the entire structure of its theological beliefs and practices. His brother, Akbar Muhammad, studied at the University of Al-Azhar in Cairo, Egypt, the great citadel of Islamic orthodoxy, and in studying with him he learned the true precepts of the Islamic religion, and understood from the very beginning the heretical nature of his father’s teachings. This caused major dissension in the ranks of Elijah Muhammad’s most enthusiastic followers, of which his former spokesman, the articulate Minister Louis Farrakhan, was most prominent. He revolted and formed his own group, using the old name “The Nation of Islam,” and reintroduced the nationalistic teachings of Elijah Muhammad, whom he calls his “leader, teacher and guide.” Thus the current schism in the African-American Muslim community.

As long as Minister Farrakhan remains recalcitrant regarding the true precepts and tenets of Al-Islam and continues his policies of divergence, a unified African-American Muslim community is unlikely in the near future. The onus falls on him. In reciting the Shahadah before his speeches and saying, “... and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Messenger,” hopefully he is referring to Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last prophet and Messenger of Allah (swt), and no one else...

The time has come for African-American Muslims of various persuasions to come together and dialogue about the differences that ideologically separate the African-American Muslim community in this country. We should certainly agree that it is time to dispel those “first-resurrection” myths that are ingrained in the psyche of many African-American Muslims.

I agree with this, but speaking out against an ideology that is at best poorly understood--even by those who claim to adhere to it, is not the best means of achieving this.

Also, I would like to preface all my proceeding responses, with the clarification of some of the wordage being utilized here:

We see words such as "MYTH": http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/myth.html

"LIE": http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861696566/lie.html

"FALSE": http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/false.html

And "BLASPHEMOUS": http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/Blasphemous.html

It is extremely important to know, that words such as "myth" and "lie/false" are not necessarily synonymous in their inherent meanings, to one another.

I shall elaborate on this, as my responses progress.

These various mythical beliefs are basically divisive, and they tend to conjure up elements of “spookism” in the religion of Islam. I am referring to phrases like: “The Asiatic black man”; “Yakub, the mad scientist, created the white man who is the devil of the world”; and “God visited America in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard.” These fallacious statements are not only false and confusing, but also blatantly blasphemous, because they are not substantiated by Qur’anic scripture or ahadith.

Given the esoteric nature of these statements, how precisely can they be proven as false?

For that matter, there is much within the HADITH, that could be seen as equally so.......Lest we are to believe that Prophet Muhammad believed that women have "semen", the world is "flat", and other ludicrous sayings.

One perspective is not superlative over that of any other.

If there was a so-called “Asiatic black man,” he was the dark-skinned native of India and Sri Lanka, who also has straight hair. This feature distinguishes him from the African, who has kinky hair.

This is wholly incorrect. Even a casual trek through Africa would indicate via visual contact, that countless African Ethnicities possess these features, and homogenously to boot.

It is what is commonly known as "Nilotic African Negro features", as opposed to the "Merotic" features (thick lips, broad noses, kinky hair, etc).

It's strange, that the notion of Africa being the cradle of civilization is mentioned here, yet the notion of the "Asiatic Black Man" is deemed false. Africa has proven to create all sorts of variations of the Black ethnicity.


Many “first-rez” Muslims postulate the theory that “once upon a time the whole world was Asia, and that the indigenous people of that continent migrated to the continent of Africa.” This theory has been proven false, for it is the general consensus of opinion among the world’s most eminent paleontologists that Africa is the cradle of civilization. Are we to believe there were no people in Africa when people were in Asia? Or that Asian people migrated to Africa and found no one there? The “first-rez” ideologues would be more correct if they said that once upon a time the whole world was Africa!

This is a statement that is, yet again, poorly understood. Though Africa was indeed the cradle of civilization, it is thoroughly understood, even by the Paleontologists that you mention, that all of the land masses of the planet earth were at one point joined and connected, into one large mass.

The word "ASIA" is said to etymologically mean "Body or mass". Why is this term not preferable? Would you instead prefer "Pangea"?

Further, since paleontology was implicitly mentioned here, it should be equally important to note that the earth has been through numerous paleological phases and transitions: the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and Paleolithic being the most noted.

Were there Black humans on the planet, before the time that "Africa" was a separate, differentiated continent from the rest of ASIA/PANGEA?

If so, then the entire planet earth was the "cradle of civilization".


“Yakub, The Mad Scientist” is another one of those “first-rez fables” that originated in the figment of someone’s imagination. The name “Yakub” is the Hebrew and Arabic equivalent of the English “Jacob,” and translates “supplanter” in the Hebrew language. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham and the son of Isaac, according to Biblical tradition. He had a twin brother named Esau who was some minutes older, and therefore was the rightful heir to their father’s birthright. But Jacob used deception and induced Esau to sell him his birthright, then conspired with his mother Rebecca (who favored him) to steal his brother’s blessing by deceiving his father through cunning means (Gen. 25:31-34; 27:1-36). Thus the origin of the meaning of his name, “supplanter.”

SInce the story of "Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham" can no moreso be proven as a historical fact than can the YA'QUB" story of the NOI, then there is no more valid a reason to condemn the latter as "false".

Also, here is where the differentiation between a "MYTH" and a "LIE" (or falsehood) comes in:

All religions, spiritual systems, and variations thereof, utilize myth as a means of proprogating the message that the system or belief intends to convey.

The word "MYTH", from "MYTHOS" just means "story". The most classic example of myth, is in that of Greek mythology.

Therein, we learn the story of Zeus, Athena, Hercules, etc......Yet no one considers these stories to be "lies". They are simply an esoteric means of conveying a lesson, moral, or some other relevant idea to humanity.

The concept of "Ya'Qub's grafted Devil" is no less the same.

For that matter, anyone with a keen understanding of NOI theology can attest that never once within Elijah's doctrine, is it explicitly stated that Ya'Qub was an actual, living, historical figure. Any moreso than a person who adheres to the theology of Hellenic mythology believes anything similar about Zeus.

Many esoteric adherants of Elijah's doctrine (such as AMIR FATIR (http://amirfatir.tripod.com/)) assert that hardly any figure or character that is mentioned in Elijah's works, are meant to be taken in the literal sense. Even within books like MESSAGE TO A BLACK MAN, THEOLOGY OF TIME, and even the LESSONS, characters like JESUS, YA'QUB, MOSES, BUDDHA, and MUHAMMAD, are rarely ever spoken of outside of a context of a metaphor or parable. In fact, Elijah's doctrine implicitly works prophetically rather than historically; he has only made minor allusions of the Black Man's greatness in an antiquitous context, instead speaking of where we should be going, and not where we have been.

The Holy Qur’an identifies 28 prophets by name in sura 6:83-90, and Yakub, or Jacob, is the eighth prophet. Surely this Yakub is not the “mad scientist” of the “first-rez” dogma. Then who was their Yakub? What was his ethnicity? When did he live and in what country? And how did he “create” the white man?

Again, the attempt is being made here, to "historicalize" these most likely mythological personas, both the Ya'Qub of the Bible and Qur'an, as well as the Ya'Qub of Elijah's doctrine.

And clearly the person making such assertions, is not familiar enough with Elijah's doctrine, and thus not fit to attempt to refute it.

Here are some examples of this:

What was his ethnicity?

Elijah's doctrine clearly states that the Ya'Qub being referenced was Black.

When did he live and in what country?

Again, it is explicitly stated that he lived on the Island of Pelan, or Patmos; the same island in which Saint John was said to have been incarcerated.

And how did he “create” the white man?

Again, this is explicitly explained in Eiljah's doctrine.

However, as stated previously, those of us who adhere to the esoteric aspect of Elijah's doctrine, view the story ("myth") of Ya'Qub as being a metaphor for the evolutionary transition that brought about the White man in Neolithic times.

The usage of this mythological parable is no different than saying that Zeus is the personification of lightning, Athena being the deity that personifies wisdom, Ares corresponding to being the God of War, and Hercules representing strength and power.

The ethnicity of these "Gods" was white, and their enduring place of residence was Mount Olympus........Does that somehow solidify the notion that they were real people?

One of the things that continues to hinder us as Black people, is our inability to distinguish fact from fiction, the parable from the lie. This shortcoming especially continues to plague us, as it pertains to our adherances to various theologies.

According to historian C. Eric Lincoln’s Black Muslims in America, W.D. Fard (Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad) was an Arab immigrant who came to this country in 1930 and became a traveling salesman based in Detroit (the largest concentration of Arabs in the Western Hemisphere live in and around the Detroit area). He came in contact with the African-American community of that city and began speaking to them about the “lost-found nation” of Islam. Before his disappearance in 1934, he had established an effective organization called the “Black Muslims of America.” His work was carried forward by his closest assistant, one Elijah Poole, a former leader in Marcus Garvey’s organization. He became Elijah Muhammad, and began teaching his followers that “God had come to this country in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard Muhammad.”

The organization came to be called “The Nation of Islam,” and, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975, became the “World Community of Islam in the West,” headed by his son Wallace, who became Imam Warithudin Muhammad. Imam Muhammad later changed the organization’s name to the “American Muslim Mission,” and, in 1985, disbanded the AMM, stating that he was no longer the leader of the so-called “Black Muslims” in the United States. He suggested that Muslim communities organize themselves around the mosques in collaboration with their Muslim brethren from around the world. With the announcement that he and the members of his organization were an integral part of the universal Islamic community - and did not need a separate identity of their own - the transition from a cult-like sect based on elements of ethnic nationalism to the universality of orthodox Islam became a reality.

Where is the "falsehood" in any of this?

Again, a distinction needs to be made:

"God in the Person of....." Is not the same as saying that this person is God personified.

How can it not be proven that ALLAH did not in fact use SAYYID ABDUL WALI FARAD MUHAMMAD ALI (as he was also known as) to bring the truth and light to the Lost-Found Blacks in the Wilderness of North America?

It is a known fact, that there were Arabs and other Islamic peoples here in America, prior to 1930. However, during that time, they too were exploiting the Blind, Deaf and Dumb Negro, just as much as the White man was. The Arabs were opening up shops in our communities, selling swine products to our people (just as they continue to do to this very day), making money off of us........Yet not once, did they opt to teach "AL-ISLAM" to our people.

In fact, were it not for men such as NOBLE DREW ALI, and MASTER FARAD MUHAMMAD, who knows how far into Islam our people would have gotten. For all we know, we could still be in darkness and ignorance to this very day.

Further, Elijah's Son WALLACE (or WARITH DEEN, if it is preferred) did absolutely nothing to further the cause of Black people. In fact, his father's reasons for his refusal to name Wallace as Elijah's successor became painfully obvious at that point: Wallace squandered all the wealth that Elijah had built under his Nation, and had decided to become the pet of the pale Arabs, who could care less about the plight of Black people in the West (they don't even care about the plight of Black people in the East, for that matter).

It is ironic, that Eric Lincoln and other "historians" never mention this, and WALLACE's other failings, along with Orthodox Islam as a whole for our people, in their writings, as they seek to vilify Elijah's legacy.


Imam Warithudin Muhammad introduced many fundamental changes in the organization, and, in fact, through subtle and gradual measures, transformed the entire structure of its theological beliefs and practices. His brother, Akbar Muhammad, studied at the University of Al-Azhar in Cairo, Egypt, the great citadel of Islamic orthodoxy, and in studying with him he learned the true precepts of the Islamic religion, and understood from the very beginning the heretical nature of his father’s teachings. This caused major dissension in the ranks of Elijah Muhammad’s most enthusiastic followers, of which his former spokesman, the articulate Minister Louis Farrakhan, was most prominent. He revolted and formed his own group, using the old name “The Nation of Islam,” and reintroduced the nationalistic teachings of Elijah Muhammad, whom he calls his “leader, teacher and guide.” Thus the current schism in the African-American Muslim community.As long as Minister Farrakhan remains recalcitrant regarding the true precepts and tenets of Al-Islam and continues his policies of divergence, a unified African-American Muslim community is unlikely in the near future. The onus falls on him. In reciting the Shahadah before his speeches and saying, “... and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Messenger,” hopefully he is referring to Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last prophet and Messenger of Allah (swt), and no one else...

This assertion is not totally accurate. There have been others who had been disgusted with WALLACE's meanderings, and had taken up to rebuild the name of the NOI in it's stead.

The LFNOI and the UNOI, for instance.

FARRAKHAN is hardly the only individual that the "onus" falls upon.

Besides, no one has yet to prove how the "true precepts and tenets of Al-Islam" have benefitted our people here in the West.

Orthodox Islam only serves to keep our people in religious and superstitious bondage, the likes of Christianity and other exoteric religions.

Most Orthodox Muslims are "believers", yet very few of them are actually "KNOWERS" of anything.

Many Muslims are content to believe all sorts of antiquated, obsolete, and outlandish ideas, in the name of the Prophet Muhammad. Yet, they are usually the first ones who are ready to condemn (and even KILL) others for whatever they believe, especially when it does not run congruent with the Orthodox Islamic way.

It was Orthodox Muslims who killed RASHAD QHALIYFAH. It was Orthodox Muslims who killed ANWAR SADAT. It was Orthodox Muslims who killed leaders of the Ahmadiyyah. These men were killed simply because their beliefs didn't reflect the Islamic majority.

Funny, I don't recall Elijah, Farad or anyone else associated with the NOI, to "kill" anybody.

Go figure.

MA'SALAAM.

Shokran aqi for your interesting comments. According to Karl Evanzz' book, The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X, it was Elijah who ordered
Malcolm's death.

Ma Salaam.

Shokran aqi for your interesting comments. According to Karl Evanzz' book, The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X, it was Elijah who ordered
Malcolm's death.

Ma Salaam.

AFWAN AQI.

Indeed, I'm familiar with Evanz' work. Unfortunately, much of it comes off as conjecture and surmising, aimed at vilification of the NOI and Elijah.

Please understand, you'll never hear me say that Elijah was without flaws, as any man is (or has the potential to be), but to speak as if this man had done nothing in the way of contributing to the upliftment of Black people in America is just shy of ludicrousy.

For that alone, he will always have my greatest of respect.

MA'SALAAM

AFWAN AQI.

Indeed, I'm familiar with Evanz' work. Unfortunately, much of it comes off as conjecture and surmising, aimed at vilification of the NOI and Elijah.Your opinion is not shared by many. The reviews I've read say otherwise...

Please understand, you'll never hear me say that Elijah was without flaws, as any man is (or has the potential to be), but to speak as if this man had done nothing in the way of contributing to the upliftment of Black people in America is just shy of ludicrousy.I know of no one who has done this... (I think you mean "ludicrousness.")

For that alone, he will always have my greatest of respect.Point well taken aqi...

Ma Salaam.

Shokran aqi for your interesting comments. According to Karl Evanzz' book, The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X, it was Elijah who ordered
Malcolm's death.

Ma Salaam.

Is there actual proof of this? It is also rumored that he had MFM killed off in a push for power over the organization. Do you believe that too? As far as the Yakub theory; it was taught that yakub,and 59,000 other Blacks got together and procreated with each other, selectively, for about 600 years, thus the white race was produced. If there is so much doubt concerning the Yakub theory, and his tricknology....how do you explain the savagery and modern western mind that originated with white men? The only other way I can agree with the yakub theory is how it coincides with the AA experience in America. A lot of us have become lawless, and we get lighter/whiter with every generation. Are we not into the 450th year? If he did order Malcolms death, what do you think his motive was in doing so? He went to Mecca, saw a few "blue-eyed devils" praying with colored folk, became estatic about it, and set about to tell the world that Elijah Muhammad's movement was fraudulent. All Elijah and Fard tried to do was rectify the Black nation. Can you imagine what type of influence a stool-pigeon such as Malcolm could have had on the collective psyche of NOI doubters. After all,he was 25% white, and could've been the most likely candidate to destroy the movement from within,based upon his god-devil genetic make-up, from a skeptical's POV.

I suggest that you purchase the book...

Shokran aqi for your interesting comments. According to Karl Evanzz' book, The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X, it was Elijah who ordered
Malcolm's death.

Ma Salaam.

So because it was printed in a book does that make it so? The Judas Factor is obvioulsy slanted. Let's look at one of his objective, fact-filled quotes:

"Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam cult, which had a grudge against Malcolm, was riddled with FBI and police informants." (http://www.namebase.org/books05.html)

Referring to a group as a cult with a grudge against Malcolm has several negative connotations and cannot be proven because it is all opinion. It is clear Mr. Evanzz had an agenda, and it was not to tell the facts.

Editorial Reviews of Karl Evanzz' book:

Amazon.com

This well-documented biography by Karl Evanzz of The Washington Post shows how a poor, Georgia-born mulatto preacher and laborman named Elijah Poole, who moved to Detroit in the 1930s to escape the brutality of the South, reinvented himself as the leader of the controversial Nation of Islam. Evanzz sifts through years of rumors and myths to uncover a proud and politically shrewd demagogue whose frail, asthma-prone body contrasted his fiery anti-white rhetoric and proclamations of black self-reliance. "To millions of African-Americans," Evanzz writes, "Elijah Muhammad was not so much a prophet as a self-schooled psychoanalyst who, like the highly celebrated Sigmund Freud, advanced theories about the nature and role of religion and race in mental dysfunction."

Painstaking research reveals how Muhammad synthesized the philosophies of Marcus Garvey and Booker T. Washington, as well as updating tenets of Freemasonry and the Moorish Science Temple to create the Nation's dogma. Evanzz also recounts Muhammad's imprisonment for draft-dodging - one of many run-ins with law enforcement - and his efforts to build schools for the children of his followers. Among the biographical details uncovered with the help of recently de-classified FBI files is the identity of Muhammad's greatest teacher, the mysterious W.D. Fard, as well as confirmation of the many children Muhammad fathered out of wedlock. The FBI files also add insight into the treachery, distrust, and violence that gripped the Nation after the 1965 assassination of Muhammad's former second-in-command, Malcolm X. By-and-large, Evanzz presents a fair, scholarly account of one of the 20th century's most infamous and influential African-American figures.

Publishers Weekly

As a followup to his acclaimed The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X, Evanzz recounts the "incredible and multidimensional" life of Elijah Muhammad, co-founder of the Nation of Islam. Evanzz begins by meticulously reviewing the history of Muhammad's family during slavery and Reconstruction, leading up to his birth in Georgia in 1897, during the brutal Jim Crow era, which shaped his belief that whites are inherently evil. Drawing on extensive research and interviews with Muhammad's family, former associates and rivals, Evanzz reveals a determined, wily and resourceful figure who got rich from his schemes, ruled his followers by intimidation and fathered an enormous number of illegitimate children.

He also chronicles Muhammad's powerful influence on key players of the civil rights movement, such as Dr. King, Muhammad Ali, Jesse Jackson and the Black Panthers. Fresh access to FBI files provides several surprises about the NOI's rocky start, the pro-Axis orientation of its leaders during WWII, and the government's extensive surveillance and harassment of its followers. The book also includes one of the most complete accounts to date of the final, bitter confrontation between Muhammad and his chief disciple, Malcolm X, arguing that the FBI's COINTELPRO campaign forced the rift between the pair, which resulted in Malcolm's grisly Harlem assassination and the disintegration of the Nation of Islam into a fractured "Tower of Babble." Although Evanzz's first-rate analysis may generate dispute among the NOI's thousands of faithful followers, it is a fascinating, long-overdue study of one of the most intriguing personalities of the 20th century.

So because it was printed in a book does that make it so? The Judas Factor is obvioulsy slanted. Let's look at one of his objective, fact-filled quotes:

"Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam cult, which had a grudge against Malcolm, was riddled with FBI and police informants." (http://www.namebase.org/books05.html)

Referring to a group as a cult with a grudge against Malcolm has several negative connotations and cannot be proven because it is all opinion. It is clear Mr. Evanzz had an agenda, and it was not to tell the facts.

I'm inclined to agree.

SALAAM

"Painstaking research reveals how Muhammad synthesized the philosophies of Marcus Garvey and Booker T. Washington, as well as updating tenets of Freemasonry and the Moorish Science Temple to create the Nation's dogma."

I don't think any living soul denies that Fard Muahmmad was a student of the Moorish Temple of Science. Even the Bible stated that there would be false prophets. Perhap MFM was the one to perfect all of those teachings. Besides, all those other spiritual heads never gave Blacks a historical breakdown of themselves, their enemies, and their destiny, as Muhammad did.

So because it was printed in a book does that make it so? The Judas Factor is obvioulsy slanted. Let's look at one of his objective, fact-filled quotes:

"Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam cult, which had a grudge against Malcolm, was riddled with FBI and police informants." (http://www.namebase.org/books05.html)

Referring to a group as a cult with a grudge against Malcolm has several negative connotations and cannot be proven because it is all opinion. It is clear Mr. Evanzz had an agenda, and it was not to tell the facts.

I'm thinking his withdrawal from the Nation's ideology was a result of his life being threatened....by the FBI.

I'm thinking his withdrawal from the Nation's ideology was a result of his life being threatened....by the FBI.

I think there were a number of factors along with that. I don't think any of the reasons he left the NOI in the last year of his life had anything to do with any spiritual revelation he received while in Mecca, because he had traveled abroad prior to 1964.

If one were to make a surprise trip to Mecca, would they see these same Aryans praying with the Arabs there? Maybe. I still think the whites there were a prop to undermine the NOI teachings.

I think there were a number of factors along with that. I don't think any of the reasons he left the NOI in the last year of his life had anything to do with any spiritual revelation he received while in Mecca, because he had traveled abroad prior to 1964.

Better yet, the Arabs deathly intimidated Malcolm because he exposed Orthodox Islam?!?!:donttell:

Better yet, the Arabs deathly intimidated Malcolm because he exposed Orthodox Islam?!?!This is not true, spicy... Arabs had nothing to do with "deathly intimidating Malcolm." He was intimidated by the NOI. And he didn't "expose" Orthodox Islam, he accepted it...

This is not true, spicy... Arabs had nothing to do with "deathly intimidating Malcolm." He was intimidated by the NOI. And he didn't "expose" Orthodox Islam, he accepted it...

Therein belaboring the problem.

Malcolm embraced an ideology that has not helped Black people in the West, in all the 40+ years that he had done so.

Orthodox Muslims in Black America still remain amongst the most empoverished, disunified, and economically, socially, politically, and spiritually powerless Black people in this entire society.

Most Black Christians are doing better on some levels, than Black Orthodox Muslims are.

From the article, “Islam in Black America: A Conversation with Robert Dannin,” by Hisham Aidi:

Robert Dannin's Black Pilgrimage to Islam (Oxford University Press, 2002), blends words and photographs to present a fascinating and nuanced picture of the world of African-American Muslims and their encounter with the Arab-Islamic world.

I recently spoke to Professor Dannin by telephone.

Why has Islam been so attractive to African-Americans in the past century? You claim that 90% of conversions to Islam are by African-Americans — what accounts for this steady rise in conversion?

There is a significant stream of conversion to Islam, but the figures show that it is a small percentage (2%) of the African-American population. This is a complicated issue to generalize about. In certain instances, individuals convert to escape a deleterious lifestyle. They find that the religion offers a salutary discipline, diet, and habits that allow them to break free from some of the bad influences of their social environment. Among women, a lot of the conversion follows marriage or goes hand-in-hand with marriage. Finally, there's a particular fascination with the ability to connect through Islam with other elements of the Third World. This has always been a very strong trend.

What is drawing people to Islam is dissatisfaction with the spiritual values offered by the established churches, and a residual interest in non-Christian denominations — this is what is now referred to as "seeking." Seekers are unchurched people, people who do not find the spirituality they are looking for inside the organized church. There are a lot of seekers in America generally, and the African-American community in particular. There's an interest in African religions, Afro-Caribbean religions, in Buddhism and other religions of the Book. Islam offers an alternative. During the Great Migration when displaced African-Americans came to the North, even if they were Christian they had difficulty assimilating into the established churches. Those communities were not always accepting of them. They turned towards storefront religions. Islam was prominent among those religions.

If there was a so-called “Asiatic black man,” he was the dark-skinned native of India and Sri Lanka, who also has straight hair.

This feature distinguishes him from the African, who has kinky hair...

...The origin of our kinky hair, says Allah, came from one of our dissatisfied scientists, 50,000 years ago, who wanted to make all of us tough and hard in order to endure the life of the jungles of East Asia (Africa) and to overcome the beasts there. But he failed to get the others to agree with him...

Chapter 18

Original Man

Know Thyself
ELIJAH MUHAMMAD

...The origin of our kinky hair, says Allah, came from one of our dissatisfied scientists, 50,000 years ago, who wanted to make all of us tough and hard in order to endure the life of the jungles of East Asia (Africa) and to overcome the beasts there. But he failed to get the others to agree with him...

Chapter 18

Original Man

Know Thyself
ELIJAH MUHAMMAD

Brother Solomon7, my question to you, would be whether you agree with this...

More specifically, do you see this as historical, or metaphorical?

SALAAM

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Elijah Muhammad(pbuh) taught that

a) Blacks have no said birth record and

b) Caucasians were "made" about 6,000 years ago.








The story of Adam and Eve is about the Caucasian race, which has been
on earth for about 6,000 years.

CAN ANYONE PROVIDE "PROOF", THEY HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER?

this is not "racist". I only seek the truth.

MR. MUHAMMAD TAUGHT THAT CAUCASIANS SPENT 2,000 YEARS, IN THE
CAUCASUS MOUTAINS AFTER THEIR BEING MADE.

OF COURSE, THIS IS NOT "PROOF", THOUGH I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED,
WHYTHEIR MEDIA SEEMS SO FASCINATED, W/ CAVEMEN? (the Flintstones for
instance) AND THE NAME, "CAUCASIANS"

Unfortunately, I can not "prove Caucasians have been here for 6.000
years but, I have discovered the following...


How old is the earth?
Quick-read this article:
The Bible is clear that Adam, the first man, lived only 6000 years ago. Adam was created on the sixth day of God's Creation Week, so the earth must be only 6000 years old too.


The following timeline by Theodore Pederson appeared in The Christian News, March 26, 2001, page 18.

How old is the earth?
If we go back 500 years, we come to the time of Martin Luther (born in 1483), and Columbus, who “sailed the ocean blue in 1492.”
If we go back 1000 years, we come to the time of Leif Ericson, Christian explorer, who preached Christ to pagans. (World Book, 1983, vol.6, page 270.)
If we go back 2000 years, we come to the birth of Jesus Christ. Our calendar is dated from His birth.
If we go back 3000 years, we come to the time of David and Solomon; they ruled Israel about 1000 BC.
If we go back 4000 years, we come to the time of Abraham (2000 BC), ancestor of Arabs and Jews.
If we go back 5000 years, we come to the time of Enoch, who “walked with God 300 years … and God took him [into Heaven].”
If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38).
The earth is about 6000 years old. Let God's people rejoice in Him who made them! (Psalm 149:2)
We would add that although many people don't accept this timeline of history, they have difficulty deciding exactly when they would start to disagree with it.

Was Jesus Christ real? The Bible says he was, and no serious historian doubts it.
Was King David real? The Bible says he was. Again, there is no reason to doubt it.
Was Abraham real? The Bible says he was. There seems no reason to doubt this either.
Was Enoch real? The Bible says he was. There is no reason to think the Bible has suddenly lapsed into fiction when the other people were genuine historical figures.
Was Adam real? Well, Enoch was a son of Cain, who was a son of Adam. So if Enoch was real there is no reason to think that his father Cain wasn't, or that his grandfather Adam wasn't. They were only two generations away.
And Adam was the first man, created in the first week of the earth's existence.

He lived only about 6000 years ago.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/earthsage.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BIBLICAL CHRONOLOGY CHART






Creation - 0
|
|
|
Abraham enters Canaan - 2000
|
Jacob(Israel) Born - 2090
|
Exodus - 2490
|
Israel settled in Promised Land - 2540
|
First Human King of Israel - 2890
|
House of Israel 'not a people' - 3330
|
Start of Desolation of Judah - 3390
|
Destruction of Jerusalem - 3410
|
Decree of Cyrus - 3460
|
|
New Testament Gospel - 3990
|
|
|
Judaism Grafted Back-In - 5980
|
Tribulation Begins - 5990
|
Kingdom of God - 6000







I BELIEVE THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE IS NOT THE STORY OF THE FIRST HUMANS INSTEAD, I BELIEVE IT IS THE STORY OF THE "MAKING", OF THE CAUCASIANS.

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Who is the "US", referring to? PLEASE, PRESENT EVIDENCE, IF POSSIBLE.

Genesis:1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the
birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and
over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he
created him; male and female he created them.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth
Edition. 2000.

image

SYLLABICATION: im·age
PRONUNCIATION: mj
NOUN: 1. A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially
a sculptured likeness. 2. Physics An optically formed duplicate,
counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object,
especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror. 3. One
that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image
of his uncle.


IF MAN WAS "MADE" IN THE "IMAGE" OF GOD, WHAT WAS GOD'S IMAGE?

PLEASE, RESPOND


I FIND IT UNBELIEVABLE THAT, THE BIBLICAL GOD COULD CREATE EVERYTHING ELSE, BY HIMSEF. EXCEPT A MAN AND WOMAN? WHY???



=============

Excerpt from "ANACALYPSIS, AN ATTEMPT TO DRAW ASIDE THE VEIL OF THE SAITIC ISIS, OR AN INQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN OF LANGUAGES, AND NATIONS"


BOOK I - CHAPTER IV
TWO ANCIENT ETHIOPIAS—GREAT BLACK NATION IN ASIA—THE BUDDHA OF INDIA A NEGRO—THE ARABIANS WERE CUSH1TES—SHEPHERD KINGS—HINDOOS AND EGYPTIANS SIMILAR—SYRIA PEOPLED FROM INDIA

Page 51

… but I shall, in the course of this work, produce a number of extraordinary facts, which will be quite sufficient to prove, that a black race, in very early times, had more influence over the affairs of the world than has been lately suspected; and I think I shall shew, by some striking circumstances yet existing, that the effects of this influence have not entirely passed away.
It was the opinion of Sir William Jones, that a great nation of Blacks* formely possessed the dominion of Asia, and held the seat of empire at Sidon. These must have been the people called by Mr. Maurice Cu****es or Cuthites, described in Genesis; and the opinion that they were Blacks is corroborated by the translators of the Pentateuch, called the Seventy, constantly rendering the word Cush by Ethiopia. …

Of this nation we have no account; but it must have flourished after the deluge. … If I succeed in collecting a sufficient number to carry conviction to an impartial mind, the empire must be allowed to have existed.

The religion of Buddha, of India, is well known to have been very ancient. In the most ancient temples scattered throughout Asia, where his worship is yet continued, he is found black as jet, with the flat face, thick lips, and curly hair of the Negro. Several statues of him may be met with the East-India Company. There are two exemplars of him brooding on the face of the deep, upon a coiled serpent. To what time are we to allot this Negro ? He will be proved to have been prior to Cristna. He must have been prior to or contemporaneous with the black empire, supposed by Sir William Jones to have flourished at Sidon. The religion of this Negro God is found, by the ruins of his temples and other circumstances, to have been spread over an immense extent of country, even to the remotest parts of Britain, and to have been professed by devotees inconceivably numerous. …

Page 53

The circumstance of the translators of the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch having rendered the word Cush by the word Ethiopia, is a very decisive proof that the theory of two Ethiopias is well founded. Let the translators have been who they may, it is totally impossible to believe that they could be so ignorant as to suppose that the African Ethiopia could border on the Euphrates, or that the Cu****es could be African Ethiopia.

Page 54

Eusebius* states the Ethiopians to have come and settled in Egypt, in the time of Amenophis. According to this account, as well as to the account given by Philostratus,** there was no such country as Ethiopia beyond Egypt until this invasion. According to Eusebius these people came from the river Indus, and planted themselves to the south of Egypt, in the country called from them Ethiopia. The circumstances named by Eusebius that they came from the Indus, at all events, implies that they came from the East, and not from the South, and would induce a person to suspect them as having crossed the Red Sea from Arabia; …

* In Chron. ad Num. 402.

** In vita Apollon. Tyanei.

Herodotus says, that there were two Ethiopian nations, one in India, the other in Egypt. He derived his information from the Egyptoian priests, a race of people who must have known the truth; …

Philostratus* says, that the Gymnosophists of Ethiopia, who settle near the sources of the Nile, descended from the Bramins of India, having been driven thence for the murder of their king.** This, Philostratus says, he learnt from an ancient Brahmin, called Jarchas.

* Vita Apoll. C. vi.

** Crawford, Res. Vol. II p.193.

Another ancient writer, Eustathius, also states, that the Ethiopians came from India. These concurring accounts can scarcely be doubted; and here may be discovered the mode and time also when great numbers of ancient rites and ceremonies might be imported from India into Egypt; …

Page 57

Mr. Wilsford, in his treatise on Egypt and the Nile, in the Asiatic Researches, informs us, that many very ancient statues of the God Buddha in India have crisp, curly hair, with flat noses and thick lips; and adds, "nor can it be reasonably doubted, that a race of Negroes formerly had power and pre-eminence in India."

This is confirmed by Mr. Maurice, who says, "The figures in the Hindoo caverns are of a very different character from the present race of Hindoos : their countenances are broad and full, the nose flat, and the lips, particularly the under lip, remarkably thick." …

Justin states, that the Phœnecians being obliged to leave their native country in the East, they settled first near the Assyrian Lake, which is the Persian Gulf; and Maurice says, "We find an extensive district, named Palestine, to the east of the Euphrates and Tigris. The word Palestine seems derived from Pallisthan, the seat of the Pallis or Shepherds." Palli, in India, means Shepherd.

… It is a well-known fact that our Hindoo soldiers when they arrived in Egypt, in the late war, recognized the Gods of their country in the ancient temples, particularly their God Cristna.

The striking similarity, indeed identity, of the style of architecture and the ornaments of the ancient Egyptian and Hindoo temples, Mr. Maurice has proven beyond all doubt. …

Page 59

… In my Essay on The Celtic Druids, I have shewn, that a great nation called Celtæ, of whom the Druids were the priests, spread themselves almost over the whole earth, and are to be traced in their rude gigantic monuments from India to the extremities of Britain. Who these can have been but the early individuals of the black nation of whom we have been treating I know not, and in this opinion I am not singular. The learned Maurice says, "Cuthites, i. e. Celts, built the great temples in India and Britain, and excavated the caves of the former."* And the learned Mathematician, Reuben Burrow, has no hesitation in pronouncing Stonehenge to be a temple of the black, curly-headed Buddha.

* Maurice, Hist. Hind. Vol.II p.249.
http://www.blackwebportal.com/forums/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=12&Topic=2898


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CAVIE" ================================================== ================================================== ===========================
FRED FLINTSTONE AND BARNEY RUBBLE

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN











MR. MUHAMMADTAUGHT THAT CAUCASIANS SPENT 2,000 YEARS, IN THE
CAUCASUS MOUTAINS AFTER THEIR BEING MADE.

OF COURSE, THIS IS NOT "PROOF", THOUGH I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED, WHYTHEIR MEDIA SEEMS SO FASCINATED, W/ CAVEMEN? AND THE NAME, CAUCASIANS.

According to historian C. Eric Lincoln’s Black Muslims in America, W.D. Fard (Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad) was an Arab immigrant who came to this country in 1930 and became a traveling salesman based in Detroit (the largest concentration of Arabs in the Western Hemisphere live in and around the Detroit area). He came in contact with the African-American community of that city and began speaking to them about the “lost-found nation” of Islam. Before his disappearance in 1934, he had established an effective organization called the “Black Muslims of America.” His work was carried forward by his closest assistant, one Elijah Poole, a former leader in Marcus Garvey’s organization. He became Elijah Muhammad, and began teaching his followers that “God had come to this country in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard Muhammad.”

An Old Lie! Resurfaced


EDITOR'S NOTE

Chelsea House Publisher's, a division of Main Line Book Co. published a book, titled Elijah Muhammad (shown to the right)

On page 51 of this book there is a picture of a man that this book CLAIMS is "Wallace Fard, the founder of the Nation of Islam, as photographed on May 26, 1933, by the Detroit Police Department..."

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE that was originally put forth in 1963 by a white-owned newspaper in California, the Herald Examiner.

Adrian G. Allen, the picture editor; and Patricia Burns, the picture researcher, for this book, either did not take the time to do real research or are imps of the devils who desire to keep this lie in circulation.

The following article is reprinted from the August 16, 1963 edition of Muhammad Speaks newspaper, headlined:

"NATION OF ISLAM OFFERS HEARST $100,000 TO PROVE CHARGE"

The article was titled, "Beware of Phony Claims", By Elijah Muhammad.

The two photographs, shown here, shown here, accompanied this headline and article and the caption beneath the two photographs are reprinted, verbatim, from the August 16, 1963 edition of Muhammad Speaks. "The Phony" picture (to the left) is the same photograph that was shown in the above-mentioned book.



The Phony


The Savior


At left is the dug-up convict, Wallace Dodd, alleged by the sensation-seeking and anti-Negro white Hearst newspaper to be founder of the Nation of Islam in North America. At right, however is the real and rightful Master Farad, of Mecca, who gave all to the black people in America before returning to Mecca. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad has not only offered to confront the phony imposter invented by the Hearst press, but has exposed the deceit and has offered to pay $100,000 if they can prove their fraudulent claims. (See Mr. Muhammad's Column)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BEWARE OF PHONY CLAIMS
By Messenger Elijah Muhammad
I, Elijah Muhammad, Messenger of Allah, told the Los Angeles "Herald-Examiner" -- on Monday, July 29, 1963, that my followers and I will pay the Los Angeles "Herald-Examiner" Newspaper $100,000.00 (one hundred, thousand dollars) to prove the headline charge ("BLACK MUSLIM FOUNDER EXPOSED AS A WHITE") made against us; that we are following one Wallace Dodd with many aliases including the name Fard; that he is the man that I am representing to my people as being Master Fard Muhammad (Allah in Person) who appeared among us in Detroit, Michigan in 1931 and is the same person (Wallace Dodd).

The Los Angeles "Herald-Examiner" also printed his prison history is San Quentin Federal Penitentiary on a charge of peddling dope, and that he admitted he was teaching us.

If he (Dodd) was teaching for money in those panic days in Detroit, he did not get it from us. Mr. Dodd, undoubtedly, must have been teaching the white people if he received any money at all, because we did not have any.

WE DID NOT pay Mr. Fard any money to teach us and there are many who will verify this statement who are yet alive. We could hardly pay the rent of a hall in those days.

Sometimes they (the Believers) would give Him (Master Fard Muhammad) gifts such as top-coats, overcoats, ties, shirts, or a few packages of handkerchiefs -- but money was so scarce in those days that we just did not have any. Just about every one who believes was on the "Relief" in Detroit including myself.

I would like the Los Angeles "Herald-Examiner" to prove that this man (Dodd) was my teacher by bringing him to this country at our expense.

Mr. Wallace Fard Muhammad, Whom Praises are due forever, The Finder and Life-Giver to we, the LOST FOUND MEMBERS OF THAT GREAT ASIATIC BLACK NATION from the TRIBE OF SHABAZZ, speaks 16 different languages. Can Mr. Wallace Dodd speak 16 different languages?

MR. WALLACE Fard Muhammad also writes 10 of the languages He speaks fluently. His native language is Arabic (does Mr. Dodd speak Arabic?) of which we have in His handwriting and it is the best writing or penmanship in the Arab World.

Let Mr. Dodd prove that he was among us; prove that he gave us our names. Let Mr. Dodd prove who was his secretary and where were the identification cards printed, of which he have with us today and did he write the Arabic on them himself?

If Mr. Dodd was the Mr. Wallace Fard Muhammad, why did not the F.B.I. arrest him for this teaching of truth? Let this paper prove these things before it headlines us as liars and worshippers of white devils.

I would like to ask the Herald Examiner to give us a minute closeup of this fake (Mr. Dodd) who they would like to make the public believe is our Saviour. Even the description of this man's height and weight does not correspond to Master Fard Muhammad's (to Whom Praises are due forever) measurements. I know His height, His weight, the size of clothes, and shoes.

WHEN MASTER Fard Muhammad left us, it was 1934. Again, let Mr. Dodd prove that he and I were together and that the Lessons that I am teaching to my followers are from him and where were they given to me and did he ever examine me on what he gave me, and where?

There are many questions that I could ask this Mr. Dodd about, that would prove to the world that this man is a fake that the Los Angeles Herald-Examiner has published. We believe this by the reasoning of such unfounded truth.

Let the Herald-Examiner Newspaper put us in contact with this Mr. Wallace Dodd. We will show the world that the entire statement is false: that this Mr. Wallace Dodd is not Master Fard Muhammad; To Whom Praises are due forever.

I HAVE warned you against allowing the devils to trick you into believing their false propaganda which they are spreading all over the world. And especially among the so-called Negroes who have been the perfect model-slaves for 400 years and yet do not have freedom, justice, and equality from the slave masters.

And now these smart, scientific tricksters are trying to prevent them from enjoying a permanent salvation that Allah, (God) under the name of Master Fard Muhammad to Whom all Praises are due, has offered us.

We who believe in him are a living proof of this offer that we are now being blessed with, even though we are afflicted with persecution and death.

You have those whom the Prophets prophesied of in Washington and in Rome (the Catholics) to deceive the whole world and especially the so-called Negroes. Look in your poison book, the Bible: Revelation 12:9 -- 13:4, 8:14--14:11, 20:10 -- and 21:8

To Be continued next issue

HURRY AND JOIN UNTO YOUR OWN KIND, THE TIME OF THIS WORLD IS NOW AT HAND.



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http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/Bewarephonyclaims.html...............

Uhmm, was any of that in reference to the question that I posed to you, Mr Solomon? :?:

SALAAM

Uhmm, was any of that in reference to the question that I posed to you, Mr Solomon? :?:

SALAAM


He's not very good at answering questions.

...began teaching his followers that “God had come to this country in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard Muhammad.”...

...Most have been conditioned to judge everything without knowledge and regardless of qualifications; however, the more intelligent among us know that one could judge better if they are equipped with the proper information. Whether one initially agrees or not, it is wisdom to reserve oneÂ’s judgment until the facts are supplied to make a case one way or the other? Could we on one hand say we are not versed in scripture, Holy QurÂ’an and Bible, out of which Messenger Muhammad bases his foundation, then on the other hand say he is or isnÂ’t what he profess to be? It is foolish to deny the truth of a matter and at the same time claim ignorance; likewise, it is the height of folly to raise oneÂ’s ignorance to the level of wisdom by saying or thinking that, "I donÂ’t know one way or another, but I KNOW he isnÂ’t thus and thus." We make ourselves fools.

...Today, approximately 4000 years from Moses, 2000 years from Jesus and 1400 years from prophet Muhammad, the Jews, Christians and Muslims of the Arab world reject Elijah MuhammadÂ’s claim of being raised by God, the same as the peoples of yesterday rejected those who had professed the same.



The name "Poole'' was never my name, nor was it my father's name. It was the name the white slave-master of my grandfather after the so-called freedom of my fathers. They, being robbed of the knowledge of self and kind, for the past 300 years did not know what deadly harm the slave-master's name would do to them in the way of TRUE freedom and recognition among the free and independent nations of our own, and the spiritual non-acceptance by Allah (God) on the Day of Resurrection from the devil's names....

Our people allowed themselves to continue to be called by the devil slave-master's name. But on the coming and appearance of Allah in 1930—who taught me a thorough knowledge of the devils, the time, the resurrection and end and the judgment of the devils and their followers and the danger of being called by devil names and believing what they teach as religion—He (Allah) gave me His Name. Later my father and all our family accepted His Name (Muhammad). Other believers in Detroit and Chicago accepted many other of His Names, (called attributes) and His true religion and only religion of God, Islam....

"The name "Poole'' was never my name, nor was it my father's name. It was the name the white slave-master of my grandfather after the so-called freedom of my fathers. They, being robbed of the knowledge of self and kind, for the past 300 years did not know what deadly harm the slave-master's name would do to them in the way of TRUE freedom and recognition among the free and independent nations of our own, and the spiritual non-acceptance by Allah (God) on the Day of Resurrection from the devil's names.

"Our people allowed themselves to continue to be called by the devil slave-master's name. But on the coming and appearance of Allah in 1930—who taught me a thorough knowledge of the devils, the time, the resurrection and end and the judgment of the devils and their followers and the danger of being called by devil names and believing what they teach as religion—He (Allah) gave me His Name. Later my father and all our family accepted His Name (Muhammad). Other believers in Detroit and Chicago accepted many other of His Names, (called attributes) and His true religion and only religion of God, Islam.

"So, I did begin teaching that the Son of Man or the Second Coming of Jesus was present. This was He now, here among us. He didn't allow me to go to far with that kind of teaching while He was present. He told me, ’You can do that after I am gone.’ He said, ‘Don't talk too much about Me now.' He said, ‘Give them a little milk.’ That's the way He talked all the time; He never would just say anything hardly direct. He would give it to you in a way that you would have to learn just exactly what He meant by what He said. And so, He said, ‘You cannot give babies meat.’ I understood what He was referring to. And so He said, ‘Give the little baby milk.’ He said, ‘When I am gone,’ He said, ‘then you can say whatever you want to about Me.'

...Sometime in early 1934 Allah left. As before mentioned, it was agreed that AllahÂ’s true identity would not be disclosed until his departure. The Messenger immediately began teaching that the one who had been known as Prophet Fard was in fact Allah (God) Himself, in the Person of Master Fard Muhammad. Although approximately 25,000 had received holy names from who they knew as Prophet Fard, only one man actually knew who He really was. This is also illustrated in the Bible in the story of Balaam and the donkey.

http://www.memps.com/elijahmuhammad.html

Brother Solomon7, my question to you, would be whether you agree with this...

More specifically, do you see this as historical, or metaphorical?

SALAAM

HISTORICAL

HISTORICAL

Thanks.

Now, would you mind Showing and Proving this to have been a historical event?

He's not very good at answering questions.

So I've noticed.......Though he's more than proficient at asking them.

Thanks.

Now, would you mind Showing and Proving this to have been a historical event?

I can present no evidence it is historical.

why I believe it is...

what I learned from the "accident" lesson ...

The simple answer would be that before I kind of believed in God, now I KNOW!



The above, is certainly true but, there is more.

The second book I read, afer the lesson, was THE THEOLOGY OF TIME. This comprised about 20 meetings, presided over by Mr. Elijah Muhammad(peace and blessings, be upon him) I remember stating, before the lesson that, the religion of Islam, made sense but, I as not around to know if his historical teachings were correct and, therefore, could not believe them.

The lesson gave me plenty of time to study. The computer was like an encyclopedia. I resesrched all checkable historical events, he mentioned. I read the book with the idea of proving him correct or incorrect. I can report that I found his techings to be correct. Those things that could not be "undeniably" proven to be correct, pointed in the direction, of being so.

I can present no evidence it is historical.

why I believe it is...

OK, so you are saying that you only BELIEVE, but you do not KNOW for sure, yes?



The simple answer would be that before I kind of believed in God, now I KNOW!

I am fully aware of what the teachings state, Brother. I'm looking for historical, scientific, or otherwise proveable FACT as to why you "BELIEVE" this is true.



The above, is certainly true but, there is more.

The second book I read, afer the lesson, was THE THEOLOGY OF TIME. This comprised about 20 meetings, presided over by Mr. Elijah Muhammad(peace and blessings, be upon him) I remember stating, before the lesson that, the religion of Islam, made sense but, I as not around to know if his historical teachings were correct and, therefore, could not believe them.

Even, with all of this, I'm still waiting for your proven evidence.

The lesson gave me plenty of time to study. The computer was like an encyclopedia. I resesrched all checkable historical events, he mentioned. I read the book with the idea of proving him correct or incorrect. I can report that I found his techings to be correct. Those things that could not be "undeniably" proven to be correct, pointed in the direction, of being so.

And yet, I still wait....... :nightowl:

You have talked all around my question--something that you have accused others of doing here.

Either you KNOW for a fact that what you BELIEVE is true, or you do not.

Which is it?

SALAAM.

I believe it is true, based upon him showing he was correct on other things.

[QUOTE=solomon7]I can present no evidence it is historical.

why I believe it is...

I believe it is true, based upon him showing he was correct on other things.

So, a man is always 100% correct, just because he is 50% correct?

Is this the logic of an intelligent person? :confused:

Was Elijah ever wrong about anything, in your knowledge?

This is not true, spicy... Arabs had nothing to do with "deathly intimidating Malcolm." He was intimidated by the NOI. And he didn't "expose" Orthodox Islam, he accepted it...

O.K., well then, did he consider a conversion to Orthodox Islam before he went to Mecca? Somebody here mentioned that he traveled abroad before(while in NOI) and had no desire to follow Orthodox Islam. Wasn't his food poisoned to the point he needed his stomach pumped? I believe he was deathly afraid, so he backed from his beliefs. It's not like the FBI were his ally.

What tactics did the NOI use to intimidate Malcolm? Who exactly killed him or hired someone to kill him?

O.K., well then, did he consider a conversion to Orthodox Islam before he went to Mecca? Somebody here mentioned that he traveled abroad before(while in NOI) and had no desire to follow Orthodox Islam. Wasn't his food poisoned to the point he needed his stomach pumped? I believe he was deathly afraid, so he backed from his beliefs. It's not like the FBI were his ally.

True indeed sister.

Also, I posted a while back that the White Arabs duped in into becoming their puppet.

The White Arabs are notorious for not letting Africans and others who are not of Arab blood into the Holy City for Hajj. They have a very racist way of treating Blacks as far as Islam is concerned, which is why it's really fishy that they wanted to use Malcolm to help enhance their image.

SALAAM

They prolly admitted him into Mecca, and convinced him that he was an Arab! You know how much Blacks those days were fighting for an identity? Then to let a BM unto forbidden grounds?! That was prolly his dying wish! I'd also like to know if I made a 'surprise' trip to Mecca, would I se as many whites praying as Malcolm witnessed. I also heard that Malcolm was only welcomed into the front room of the elite, because they had BLACK slaves tied up like animals in the next room!!!! Can I get a witness?!

So, a man is always 100% correct, just because he is 50% correct?

Is this the logic of an intelligent person? :confused:

Was Elijah ever wrong about anything, in your knowledge?

I am under NO compulson to, accept YOUR criteria for, belief.

Was Elijah ever wrong about anything, in your knowledge?
no and to your knowledge?

...he is 50% correct?

is this truth or, just opinion?

So, a man is always 100% correct, just because he is 50% correct?

surely, you can "back your statement up" for, an
"intelligent person" would be able to,CORRECT?

[QUOTE=spicybrown] if I made a 'surprise' trip to Mecca, would I se as many whites praying as Malcolm witnessed.[QUOTE]


It should be remembered, as you mentioned earlier, this was NOT his first visit.

[QUOTE=spicybrown] if I made a 'surprise' trip to Mecca, would I se as many whites praying as Malcolm witnessed.[QUOTE]


It should be remembered, as you mentioned earlier, this was NOT his first visit.


Exactly, if whites praying in Mecca was so commonplace; why was it such a revelation to see them there on his last trip? As outspoken as Malcolm was, I can imagine him having bragged, at least once, about 'seeing a devil in heaven'..........lol

Exactly, if whites praying in Mecca was so commonplace; why was it such a revelation to see them there on his last trip?

GOOD QUESTION!

I am under NO compulson to, accept YOUR criteria for, belief.

That's great, but that does not answer my question. Should I give up on getting an answer now?


no and to your knowledge?

Yes. Some of HOW TO EAT TO LIVE is questionable.

is this truth or, just opinion?

Are you asking me? I'm asking you!!! Don't answer questions with questions.


surely, you can "back your statement up" for, an
"intelligent person" would be able to,CORRECT?

I don't have anything to "back up". I'm the one asking you the question, remember?

You're not going to wrap me up in that rigga-meroe that you tried to take UPLIFT through. I guarantee you that I've been at this for far longer than you have.

So we can either build constructively, in a civilized fashion, or not at all. Choice is yours.

SALAAM

That's great, but that does not answer my question. Should I give up on getting an answer now?

can you read?...

Today, 05:24 PM
solomon7
MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 98
Rep Power: 1


[quote=solomon7]

I can present no evidence it is historical.

why I believe it is...






Yes. Some of HOW TO EAT TO LIVE is questionable.

[Not "questionable" but, "wrong".

Are you asking me? I'm asking you!!! Don't answer questions with questions.




I don't have anything to "back up". I'm the one asking you the question, remember?

And I answered, won't you?

You're not going to wrap me up in that rigga-meroe that you tried to take UPLIFT through. I guarantee you that I've been at this for far longer than you have.

Should I be impressed?

So we can either build constructively, in a civilized fashion, or not at all. Choice is yours.

I am/have been civilized.

The choice is YOURS.

SALAAM
,,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks for once again, NOT answering my question.

I'll give up on further seeking and answer from one who does not have it.

PEACE

Thanks for once again, NOT answering my question.

I'll give up on further seeking and answer from one who does not have it.

PEACE

To what question do you refer that, I have NOT answered?

I am seeking clarification so, again, I ask...

Quote:
...he is 50% correct?


is this truth or, just opinion?

I am seeking clarification so, again, I ask...

Quote:
...he is 50% correct?


is this truth or, just opinion?

It was neither; just a hypothetical example. I'm just trying to figure out how your logic works, is all.

Unless you've trialed and tested 100% of what a man says (regardless of whoo that man is), then you have no way of knowing if 100% of what he says is true or correct.

True indeed sister.

Also, I posted a while back that the White Arabs duped in into becoming their puppet.

The White Arabs are notorious for not letting Africans and others who are not of Arab blood into the Holy City for Hajj. They have a very racist way of treating Blacks as far as Islam is concerned, which is why it's really fishy that they wanted to use Malcolm to help enhance their image.

SALAAM

I have seen Arabs referred to as white in some of my studies before. What is the basis for this? Are you asserting that all Arabs are white? I agree that some people who call themselves Arab are white, and that in fact it is more of a nationalist rather than race identity, but I am seeking your understanding on this point.

I do agree, there is racism in Islam which was, I believe, the main reason for the rise of Nation of Islam in the West.

I believe, the main reason for the rise of Nation of Islam in the West.

You may think this is the reason for the "rise".

The reason for it's "establishment" though, was to deliver a message.

I have seen Arabs referred to as white in some of my studies before. What is the basis for this? Are you asserting that all Arabs are white? I agree that some people who call themselves Arab are white, and that in fact it is more of a nationalist rather than race identity, but I am seeking your understanding on this point.

I do agree, there is racism in Islam which was, I believe, the main reason for the rise of Nation of Islam in the West.

Not at all.

There are White (re: extremely pale) Arabs, who have most of the Arab and Islamic world on lock down.

I certainly do not think that Arabs by and large are Caucasian, and certainly not indigenously so. They were, and in many cases still are Africanoid peoples.

Prophet Muhammad himself was a Black man from the Qur'aysh tribe of Southern Arabia (Himyar).

I hope that clarifies your question.

PEACE

Not at all.

There are White (re: extremely pale) Arabs, who have most of the Arab and Islamic world on lock down.

I certainly do not think that Arabs by and large are Caucasian, and certainly not indigenously so. They were, and in many cases still are Africanoid peoples.

Prophet Muhammad himself was a Black man from the Qur'aysh tribe of Southern Arabia (Himyar).

I hope that clarifies your question.

PEACE

I would have to agree with that. I have seen some refer to Arabs as white as an argument to demonize Islam as another "white man's religion" as many have accused Chrisitianity of being.

You may think this is the reason for the "rise".

The reason for it's "establishment" though, was to deliver a message.

... :zipit: ...

I would have to agree with that. I have seen some refer to Arabs as white as an argument to demonize Islam as another "white man's religion" as many have accused Chrisitianity of being.

LOL, that's extremely laughable. If a Black man created it, then to a Black man it belongs.

But that doesn't mean that it's not predominantly in the hands of the wrong people, though.

Islam is going to need a serious reformation, before the Black man can reinherit it, and before it can serve as a means of our salvation.

As it is, though it's not a "white man's religion", it certainly carries itself as such (oppression of women, the upholding of superstition over knowledge, division amongst peoples, etc).

25,000 years is a long ways to go.

PEACE

..."white man's religion" as many have accused Chrisitianity of being.



People would do good to remember, the New Testament, of the Bible, was written in/under the Roman Empire.

LOL, that's extremely laughable. If a Black man created it, then to a Black man it belongs.

But that doesn't mean that it's not predominantly in the hands of the wrong people, though.

Islam is going to need a serious reformation, before the Black man can reinherit it, and before it can serve as a means of our salvation.

As it is, though it's not a "white man's religion", it certainly carries itself as such (oppression of women, the upholding of superstition over knowledge, division amongst peoples, etc).

25,000 years is a long ways to go.

PEACE

I agree Islam does need reformation, but the only way to do that is to reinherit it first. Some could argue Christianity is not a white man's religion because Jesus was Black.

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 109
Rep Power: 2


Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMURAI36
Thanks for once again, NOT answering my question.

I'll give up on further seeking and answer from one who does not have it.

PEACE


To what question do you refer that, I have NOT answered?

Brother, in all honesty, is this really worth it? I suspect that you and I have far much more in common (both being student of T.H.E.M.), than we have different.

I'm sure you know the Supreme Math? The number 8 has 2 aspects: let's focus on the constructive aspect, rather than the destructive.

SALAAM

Brother, in all honesty, is this really worth it? I suspect that you and I have far much more in common (both being student of T.H.E.M.), than we have different.

I'm sure you know the Supreme Math? The number 8 has 2 aspects: let's focus on the constructive aspect, rather than the destructive.

SALAAM

That was a respectful invitation to reason with one another. I can't wait to see the response. :look:

please, Ms./Mr. SAMURAI36, either provide evidence or, admit you were mistaken.

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 109
Rep Power: 2


Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMURAI36
Thanks for once again, NOT answering my question.

I'll give up on further seeking and answer from one who does not have it.

PEACE


To what question do you refer that, I have NOT answered?

That was a respectful invitation to reason with one another. I can't wait to see the response. :look:

Satisfied with your curiosity, Brother?

PEACE

Satisfied with your curiosity, Brother?

PEACE


Yes, it seems your invitation was refused.

And to settle the confusion, I am not male :(

Yes, it seems your invitation was refused.

And to settle the confusion, I am not male :(



WHOA!!!!!!! :jawdrop:

My sincerest apologies. I have both over- and underestimated you simultaneously, if that is at all possible. :hammer2:

PEACE

Brother, in all honesty, is this really worth it? I suspect that you and I have far much more in common (both being student of T.H.E.M.), than we have different.

I'm sure you know the Supreme Math? The number 8 has 2 aspects: let's focus on the constructive aspect, rather than the destructive.

SALAAM

Salaam,

Emphatically, yes.

I consider your accuasstion, somewhat serious.

Please, either submit proof or, a retraction.

Salaam,

Emphatically, yes.

I consider your accuasstion, somewhat serious.

Please, either submit proof or, a retraction.

I can tell you now, as this is the only time that I'll tell you, that you are going to get neither from me.

It would behoove you to leave it be. There is far more that we can discuss here, than to fuss over a question that you didn't even understand to begin with.

:coffee: I can tell you now, as this is the only time that I'll tell you, that you are going to get neither from me.

It would behoove you to leave it be. There is far more that we can discuss here, than to fuss over a question that you didn't even understand to begin with.
Salaam,

I find it odd, at best you, can/will not provide evidence, you were truthful.

But, considering, I believe you do not posses said evidence, it is NOT so odd.

I'm not the least bit concerned with what you "believe". Your "beliefs" are no one's business, save your own.

I'm not the least bit concerned with what you "believe". Your "beliefs" are no one's business, save your own.

:jam: Noooooo.....Don't fall back into the black hole... :)

;) Noooooo.....Don't fall back into the black hole...

Too late.

Provide proof to, dispel " belief".

:jam: Noooooo.....Don't fall back into the black hole... :)

Duly noted.....Not gonna happen. :nono:

The time has come for African-American Muslims of various persuasions to come together and dialogue about the differences that ideologically separate the African-American Muslim community in this country. We should certainly agree that it is time to dispel those “first-resurrection” myths that are ingrained in the psyche of many African-American Muslims.

These various mythical beliefs are basically divisive, and they tend to conjure up elements of “spookism” in the religion of Islam. I am referring to phrases like: “The Asiatic black man”; “Yakub, the mad scientist, created the white man who is the devil of the world”; and “God visited America in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard.” These fallacious statements are not only false and confusing, but also blatantly blasphemous, because they are not substantiated by Qur’anic scripture or ahadith.

If there was a so-called “Asiatic black man,” he was the dark-skinned native of India and Sri Lanka, who also has straight hair. This feature distinguishes him from the African, who has kinky hair. Many “first-rez” Muslims postulate the theory that “once upon a time the whole world was Asia, and that the indigenous people of that continent migrated to the continent of Africa.” This theory has been proven false, for it is the general consensus of opinion among the world’s most eminent paleontologists that Africa is the cradle of civilization. Are we to believe there were no people in Africa when people were in Asia? Or that Asian people migrated to Africa and found no one there? The “first-rez” ideologues would be more correct if they said that once upon a time the whole world was Africa!

“Yakub, The Mad Scientist” is another one of those “first-rez fables” that originated in the figment of someone’s imagination. The name “Yakub” is the Hebrew and Arabic equivalent of the English “Jacob,” and translates “supplanter” in the Hebrew language. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham and the son of Isaac, according to Biblical tradition. He had a twin brother named Esau who was some minutes older, and therefore was the rightful heir to their father’s birthright. But Jacob used deception and induced Esau to sell him his birthright, then conspired with his mother Rebecca (who favored him) to steal his brother’s blessing by deceiving his father through cunning means (Gen. 25:31-34; 27:1-36). Thus the origin of the meaning of his name, “supplanter.”

The Holy Qur’an identifies 28 prophets by name in sura 6:83-90, and Yakub, or Jacob, is the eighth prophet. Surely this Yakub is not the “mad scientist” of the “first-rez” dogma. Then who was their Yakub? What was his ethnicity? When did he live and in what country? And how did he “create” the white man?

According to historian C. Eric Lincoln’s Black Muslims in America, W.D. Fard (Abdul Warithudin Fard Muhammad) was an Arab immigrant who came to this country in 1930 and became a traveling salesman based in Detroit (the largest concentration of Arabs in the Western Hemisphere live in and around the Detroit area). He came in contact with the African-American community of that city and began speaking to them about the “lost-found nation” of Islam. Before his disappearance in 1934, he had established an effective organization called the “Black Muslims of America.” His work was carried forward by his closest assistant, one Elijah Poole, a former leader in Marcus Garvey’s organization. He became Elijah Muhammad, and began teaching his followers that “God had come to this country in the person of ‘Master’ W.D. Fard Muhammad.”

The organization came to be called “The Nation of Islam,” and, upon the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975, became the “World Community of Islam in the West,” headed by his son Wallace, who became Imam Warithudin Muhammad. Imam Muhammad later changed the organization’s name to the “American Muslim Mission,” and, in 1985, disbanded the AMM, stating that he was no longer the leader of the so-called “Black Muslims” in the United States. He suggested that Muslim communities organize themselves around the mosques in collaboration with their Muslim brethren from around the world. With the announcement that he and the members of his organization were an integral part of the universal Islamic community - and did not need a separate identity of their own - the transition from a cult-like sect based on elements of ethnic nationalism to the universality of orthodox Islam became a reality.

Imam Warithudin Muhammad introduced many fundamental changes in the organization, and, in fact, through subtle and gradual measures, transformed the entire structure of its theological beliefs and practices. His brother, Akbar Muhammad, studied at the University of Al-Azhar in Cairo, Egypt, the great citadel of Islamic orthodoxy, and in studying with him he learned the true precepts of the Islamic religion, and understood from the very beginning the heretical nature of his father’s teachings. This caused major dissension in the ranks of Elijah Muhammad’s most enthusiastic followers, of which his former spokesman, the articulate Minister Louis Farrakhan, was most prominent. He revolted and formed his own group, using the old name “The Nation of Islam,” and reintroduced the nationalistic teachings of Elijah Muhammad, whom he calls his “leader, teacher and guide.” Thus the current schism in the African-American Muslim community.

As long as Minister Farrakhan remains recalcitrant regarding the true precepts and tenets of Al-Islam and continues his policies of divergence, a unified African-American Muslim community is unlikely in the near future. The onus falls on him. In reciting the Shahadah before his speeches and saying, “... and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Messenger,” hopefully he is referring to Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw), the last prophet and Messenger of Allah (swt), and no one else...


Interesting to see what will be the future direction of the NOI.