Of all the holy books revealed to different prophets for the guidance of mankind, the Holy Qur’an occupies a unique position in the sense that it is meant for all times and climes until the end of the world – because it is the last word of Allah (God), after which no revealed book is to come...

Islam is a perfect religion, so it touches every aspect of human activity. Therefore, the Holy Qur’an contains a complete code of life which may be required by man at any time and in any place...

The Qur’an is not a book containing theories, but it is the book which always exhorts mankind to practice and action. It always extends an invitation to think, to ponder and to contemplate over the mysteries of the Universe. It is the book not only to recite, but to understand and apply the instructions in one’s own life. The Qur’an contains revolutionary ideas so that a man lying in the deep, dark dungeons of degradation can come up and soar high to reach the zenith of greatness and glory...

The Qur’an contains such knowledge and enlightenment that it shall never be ineffective, futile, or fruitless. It carries in its word wisdom so deep that an ordinary man cannot actually reach those depths. It is a highway that will not mislead anybody. It is a light that will never die out. It creates such distinction between truth and falsehood that its decisions will never be challenged or refuted...

Its exhortations cannot be proven wrong. It is the cure for perverse minds. It is a power that cannot be overthrown. It is truth personified. Its supporters will never feel sorry for the support given to it. It is a mine of faith, a spring of knowledge, and a fountainhead of equity and justice...

The wisdom that the Holy Qur’an contains and the learning it imparts cannot be exhausted. It is such a destination that those who aim to reach it will never go astray. It is such a landmark that those who follow the path of truth will never miss it. It is such a sublime source of information that nothing can surpass it. God has made it a blessing for the learned, wise and pious persons, an unfailing remedy for the wicked, and a source of illumination for those in the depths of darkness...

It is a powerful binding force to keep men within the bonds of truth, faith and love. It is the safest refuge from sin and vice. It is the harbinger of peace for humanity. It honors those who accept it, guides those who follow it, profits those who act according to its dictates...and it acts as a sound argument for those who speak through it...

The Qur'an brings success to those who embrace it. It is the quickest and shortest way to salvation for those who formulate their lives according to its tenets. It is the easiest and best form of explanation for those who want to understand the principles of truth and piety. So far as the history of mankind is concerned, it is the best source of information; and so far as justice and equity is concerned, it is the best code of law...

“Thou receivest the Qur’an from One All-wise, All-knowing.” (Surah 27:6)

Thus the Holy Qur'an is not a "canonized" book...

The Holy Qu'raan is indeed a great example of truth and the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) a great example for mankind. There is no other book comparible to it. It is the only one of its kind. I appreciate the fact that it confirms that the Bible and Torah are from God, and that much of them both have true significgance. But as repentance does away with sin the Qu'ran did away with them both. They had been misunderstood by some and perverted by others, they are no longer accurate.

You're right, jusme...and thank you for your enlightening comments...

As-Salaamu-Alaikum.

the Holy Qu'ran acknowledges Jesus as being perfect. NO sin.
Not even prophet Muhammad was w/o sin.

Aqil, what would you use to take away the streaks and stains for your car a dirty towel or a clean one??

I don't have a car, Jehiah. The following article mirrors my thoughts on your comment re: Jesus...

No Offense, But Muslims Love Jesus As Much As Christians Do...

By John Casey

Some years ago an agnostic friend of mine married a Jewish woman who practiced her faith seriously. He took instruction in Judaism and seemed quite likely to convert - but eventually did not. His chief reason was that he remained agnostic. But there was another obstacle that surprised even himself: "I found that I just did not want to give up Jesus."

In European culture, there is no getting away from Jesus even if you are agnostic. True, Nietzsche tried to reject him with detestation and contempt, calling him an "idiot"; a purveyor of a sick, decadent view of the world. Nietzsche thought that the only figure in the New Testament who commands respect is Pontius Pilate. Yet the very ferocity of Nietzsche's onslaught on Jesus showed how strong in his heart was the image he wanted to destroy.

Now what if my friend had married a Muslim? The interesting thing is that he could have kept Jesus - not the Jesus who was the Son of God, admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God - who was born of a virgin and who ascended into heaven.

Jesus is referred to quite often in the Qur'an (Muslim holy book) six times under the title "Messiah." Yet I had long-supposed that the importance of Jesus as prophet in Muslim tradition was not much more than a matter of lip-service, something to which Muslims gave (to use Cardinal Newman's distinction) "notional" rather than "real" assent.

This impression was strengthened when I went to Ur of the Chaldees in southern Iraq and visited the so-called house of Abraham. It is only a few piles of sun-baked mud bricks, but you would have expected hundreds of Muslim Arabs to be visiting the birthplace of their Patriarch. I saw none - whereas the shrines of Muslim martyrs in Najaf and Kerbala were thronged. I assumed, therefore, that Jesus must be a marginal figure in the Muslim world.

How wrong this assumption was I have learned by reading a fascinating and instructive book, The Muslim Jesus, by the Cambridge academic Tarif Khalidi. Professor Khalidi has brought together, from a vast range of sources, most of the stories, sayings and traditions of Jesus that are to be found in Muslim piety from the earliest times.

The Muslim Jesus is an ascetic, a man of voluntary poverty, humility and long-suffering. He literally turns the other cheek, allowing his face to be slapped twice in order to protect two of his disciples. He teaches the return of good for evil:

"Jesus used to say, 'Charity does not mean doing good to him who does good to you...Charity means that you should do good to him who does you harm.' "

He loves the poor and embraces poverty:

"The day Jesus was raised to Heaven, he left behind nothing but a woolen garment, a slingshot and two sandals."

He preaches against attachment to worldly things:

"Jesus said, 'He who seeks worldly things is like the man who drinks sea water: the more he drinks, the more thirsty he becomes, until it kills him.'"

Many of the sayings of the Muslim Jesus are clearly derived from Biblical sources:

"Place your treasures in Heaven, for the heart of man is where his treasure is"; "Look at the birds coming and going! They neither reap nor plough, and God provides for them."

Sometimes there is a sort of gloss on the words of Jesus from the Gospel:

"Oh disciples, do not cast pearls before swine, for the swine can do nothing with them...wisdom is more precious than pearls and whomever rejects wisdom is worse than a swine."

He is certainly a wonder-worker. He often raises the dead, and gives his disciples power to do the same. More than once he comes across a skull and restores it to life; on one occasion granting salvation to a person who had been damned. The skulls, like everyone else in these stories, address Jesus as "Spirit of God." Once he is even addressed as "Word of God."

I once had a conversation with members of Hizbollah in Beirut. One of them said this: "The greatness of Islam is that we combine Judaism and Christianity. Jesus freed enslaved hearts; he was able to release human feeling; to reveal a kingdom of peace. Jesus's realm was the realm of the soul. Jesus is soul; Moses is mind - the mind of the legislator. In Islam, we interweave both."

This is certainly the Jesus of these stories - the Jesus of the mystical Sufi tradition. The great Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali actually called Jesus "Prophet of the Heart."

The Muslim Jesus is not divine, but a humble servant of God. He was not crucified - Islam insists that the story of the killing of Jesus is false. He is, as it were, Jesus as he might have been without St. Paul or St. Augustine or the Council of Nice. He is not the cold figure of English unitarianism, and he is less grand than the exalted human of the Aryans. As you read these stories, what comes across most powerfully is that the Muslim Jesus is intensely loved. There is an element of St. Francis of Assisi in them.

It is good to be reminded, especially now, of the intimate connections there have been between Islam and Christianity, and how close in spirit Muslim and Christian piety can come to each other. Curiously enough, the Muslim Jesus, shorn of all claims of divinity, could be more easily held onto by my agnostic friend than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

One other thing: Since Muslims deny the crucifixion, their emphasis has been on the wonders surrounding "the birth of Jesus, Son of Mary," born as his mother sat under a palm tree, and miraculously speaking from within the womb.

There really is no reason why schools that put on Nativity plays, or anyone who wants to insist on the Christian meaning of Christmas, should fear that they may offend Muslim sensibilities, for Jesus really is shared by both faiths...


The Muslim Jesus by Tarif Khalidi (Harvard University Press) is available from Telegraph Books.

Aqil---

I have never read the Qur'an and as such will concede that my ignorance of it may hinder me in this debate, however....

There are a few questions and/or comments on this post.

To use one of your responses....What is your source for the information that Mohammad was a prophet?

"Perfect Religion" is an oxzymoran. If it is a religion is cannot be perfect.

How are we to know that Mohammad was not just an enlightened writer who thought he had a perfect way for man to be the most enlightened and humane person he could be which included what he percieved to be the best tenents of the Bible and the Torah?

"It is the quickest and shortest way to salvation for those who formulate their lives according to its tenets."

This is scary because it suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living. The problem with that is that ALL of us sin and come short of the glory and mercy of God. WE WILL NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH. So.. if God did not send his son to die for our sins and bare the burden of our salvation...we are all doomed. We are imperfect by nature...so regardless of our faith, and/or guides we will never be good enough or enlightened enough to secure our own salvation.

i understand fully what you are sayin a007

I don't...because Jesus says in Matthew 5:48, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Aqil--

yet again you have taken a scripture (from a book that you really don't believe in) and taken it out of context to use it for your own purposes.

Jesus was referring to our love for our brothers and our enimies. He is simply admonishing us to be perfect in our love.

And anyway...we really don't know if those exact words were used (perfect) because, as you stated, the bible has lost a lot in its translations.

ln the Quran, Jesus is called 'Messiah', 'Word of God' and Sinless unlike any other mere prophet, as Muhammad.

Jesus is greater than Muhammad in his own writings.

Aqil:

Yet again you have taken a scripture (from a book that you really don't believe in) and taken it out of context to use it for your own purposes."Yet again you have profferred another falsehood, A007...I don't do that. And did I ever tell you that I don't believe in the Bible?

Jesus was referring to our love for our brothers and our enemies. He is simply admonishing us to be perfect in our love."I will quote the scripture starting with Matthew 5:43 from the Contemporary English Version (it does not use the word "perfect"):

"You have heard people say, 'Love your neighbors and hate your enemies.' But I will tell you to love your enemies an pray for anyone who mistreats you. Then you will be acting like your Father in Heaven. He makes the Sun rise on both good and bad people. And he sends rain for the ones who do right and for the ones who do wrong. If you love only those people who love you, will God reward you for that? Even tax collectors love their friends. If you greet only your friends, what's so great about that? Don't even unbelievers do that? But you must always act like your Father in Heaven."

Jesus admonishes us to be like our Father in Heaven, WHO IS PERFECT...

And anyway...we really don't know if those exact words were used (perfect) because, as you stated, the bible has lost a lot in its translations.I remain wary of this condescending statement...:)

Originally posted by j'hiah
ln the Quran, Jesus is called 'Messiah', 'Word of God' and sinless, unlike any other mere prophet, as Muhammad.

Jesus is greater than Muhammad in his own writings. The fact that both were great prophets of God renders your insignificant meanderings re: comparison a moot point and a non sequitur, Jehiah, and chimerical at best...
:nono:

Aqil--

Of course Jesus admonishes us to be like God. And yes God is perfect. But my statement was that "perfect religion is an oxymoron" Your response that Jesus admonishes us to be perfect prompted me to say you had taken that scripture out of context because that scripture was in reference to our love ...not to religion.

"Islam is a perfect religion" is the only statement that I take issue with.

and no-one addressed the rest of my first response

How are we to know that Mohammad was not just an enlightened writer who thought he had a perfect way for man to be the most enlightened and humane person he could be which included what he percieved to be the best tenents of the Bible and the Torah?

Aqil :"It is the quickest and shortest way to salvation for those who formulate their lives according to its tenets."

This is scary because it suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living. The problem with that is that ALL of us sin and come short of the glory and mercy of God. WE WILL NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH. So.. if God did not send his son to die for our sins and bare the burden of our salvation...we are all doomed. We are imperfect by nature...so regardless of our faith, and/or guides we will never be good enough or enlightened enough to secure our own salvation.

Aqil:

Of course Jesus admonishes us to be like God. And yes God is perfect. But my statement was that "perfect religion is an oxymoron" Your response that Jesus admonishes us to be perfect prompted me to say you had taken that scripture out of context because that scripture was in reference to our love ...not to religion.What's the difference?

'Islam is a perfect religion' is the only statement that I take issue with.Are you saying Christianity is a perfect religion?

And no one addressed the rest of my first response:

How are we to know that Muhammad was not just an enlightened writer who thought he had a perfect way for man to be the most enlightened and humane person he could be which included what he perceived to be the best tenets of the Bible and the Torah?I have posted several threads on Islam for your clarification and edification.

Aqil: "It is the quickest and shortest way to salvation for those who formulate their lives according to its tenets."

This is scary because it suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living. The problem with that is that ALL of us sin and come short of the glory and mercy of God. WE WILL NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH. So...if God did not send his son to die for our sins and bare the burden of our salvation...we are all doomed. We are imperfect by nature...so regardless of our faith - and/or guides - we will never be good enough or enlightened enough to secure our own salvation...I am aghast in stupefaction at the fallaciousness of your obtuse statement. First of all, there is nothing "scary" about a statement that suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living, for we are. Secondly, as I have previously stated, being a Christian does not refer to a belief that a certain man was killed by a mob in order that our sins might be forgiven. In fact, that is utter nonsense, for it would make null and void the law of cause and effect, and contradict – point blank – the Biblical declaration that "we must work out our own salvation."

A007: Of course Jesus admonishes us to be like God. And yes God is perfect. But my statement was that "perfect religion is an oxymoron" Your response that Jesus admonishes us to be perfect prompted me to say you had taken that scripture out of context because that scripture was in reference to our love ...not to religion."
Aqil: "What's the difference?"

Are you serious? You are asking what's the difference between love and religion?

Aqil: "Are you saying Christianity is a perfect religion?"

I am say there is NO perfect religion.

Aqil: "I have posted several threads on Islam for your clarification and edification. "

Where are they? And do they answer how you know Mohammad wasn't just a good writer?

Aqil: "I am aghast in stupefaction at the fallaciousness of your obtuse statement." :lol:

For real? :D You don't have to use big words to bolster your belief in your own intelligence because there was nothing misleading or blunt about my statement.

"First of all, there is nothing "scary" about a statement that suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living, for we are. Secondly, as I have previously stated, being a Christian does not refer to a belief that a certain man was killed by a mob in order that our sins might be forgiven. In fact, that is utter nonsense, for it would make null and void the law of cause and effect, and contradict – point blank – the Biblical declaration that "we must work out our own salvation."

Salvation: 1. Deliverence from sin. 2. Preservation from destruction or failure.
How can deeds and right living deliver us from sin? At what point do you believe you will be free from sin? "we must work out our own salvation through Jesus" The declaration was in reference to our free will and that each of us will have our own time to come to the Lord.

Are you serious? You are asking what's the difference between love and religion?Yes. Do you have an answer?

Aqil: "Are you saying Christianity is a perfect religion?"

I am saying there is NO perfect religion.I am saying there is.

Aqil: "I have posted several threads on Islam for your clarification and edification."

Where are they? And do they answer how you know Muhammad wasn't just a good writer?On p.1 of the "Spirituality and Religion" forum. Prophet Muhammad (saw) could not write.

Aqil: "I am aghast in stupefaction at the fallaciousness of your obtuse statement."

For real? You don't have to use big words to bolster your belief in your own intelligence because there was nothing misleading or blunt about my statement.I choose how to express myself, A007, and I don't have to bolster anything. If you don't understand English that's your problem...get a dictionary. And no, your statement wasn't misleading or blunt, it was stupid...just as your above statement is stupid...

Aqil: "First of all, there is nothing "scary" about a statement that suggests that we are responsible for our own salvation through deeds and right living, for we are. Secondly, as I have previously stated, being a Christian does not refer to a belief that a certain man was killed by a mob in order that our sins might be forgiven. In fact, that is utter nonsense, for it would make null and void the law of cause and effect, and contradict – point blank – the Biblical declaration that "we must work out our own salvation."

Salvation: 1. Deliverence from sin. 2. Preservation from destruction or failure...

How can deeds and right living deliver us from sin?By obeying God's laws of right living. Once again I am aghast at the idiocy of your comments....My Lord!

At what point do you believe you will be free from sin?Obeying God's laws frees you from sin...

We must work out our own salvation through Jesus. The declaration was in reference to our free will and that each of us will have our own time to come to the Lord.Who said, "we must work out our own salvation through Jesus."? And what is the source of your last statement?

"I am saying there is NO perfect religion."

I am saying there is.
Well then you are ignorant

And no, your statement wasn't misleading or blunt, it was stupid...just as your above statement is stupid... How can deeds and right living deliver us from sin?"

By obeying God's laws of right living.

--- i meant to say....

By obeying God's laws of right living.
That is stupid.

Obeying God's laws frees you from sin...
And that is more stupid.

I have refrained from denegrating, depressing, childish insults and you continue to offer them because theyare masks for your inability to profer intelligent, relevent, focused, thought of you own. When you can't find an article, excerpt, or website you simply stall with feticious evil until you can find something. This is the first an last time I will bring myself down to your level. Any further insults will go unnoticed, ignored, displaced, and dismissed as evidence that either your religion is flawed or your practice of it is lacking.

And I am thoroughly convinced now that you're stupid...

Aqil, it is not good to call a person stupid who is not stupid.

I agree with J'hiah...but it is ok J'hiah because I know I am not stupid and I believe you and others whom have debated with me know I am not stupid and I suspect that Aqil knows this too, but he is too blinded by his anger to realized that calling me stupid doesn't make me so. All it does is give people on Afronet a negative perception of Aqil and subsequently a negative perspective on Islam, because Aqil is susposed to be a good tenent of Islam yet he insults someone whose only objective it to gain knowledge through proper questioning. I have offered only one negative response in the midst of his many and my response only stated that two of Aqil statements were stupid and I shouldn't have made those because I should be above that. My only defense is that I am a work in progress and my journey is neverending.

Intelligent people don't say stupid things...stupid people do...

Are you referring to stupid statements like..."Islam is the Perfect Religion"?

I am saying there is NO perfect religion.I am saying there is.

Well then you are ignorant. How can deeds and right living deliver us from sin?By obeying God's laws of right living.

That is stupid.Obeying God's laws frees you from sin.

And that is more stupid.Like I said, intelligent people don't say stupid things...stupid people do...

I REST MY CASE...

You believe it is intelligent to say Islam is a PERFECT RELIGION?

You believe it is intelligent to say Obeying God's laws frees you from sin?

RELIGION is man made therefore it can not be perfect.

Everyone (including those whom obey God's law) sins everyday and are held accountable for them

Have you still not learned that insults to me only do harm to your position of Islam being perfect? Are you obeying Gods laws by insulting me? :lol:

You believe it is intelligent to say Islam is a PERFECT RELIGION?Yes. The Holy Qur'an says so.

You believe it is intelligent to say obeying God's laws frees you from sin?Of course I do.

RELIGION is man-made therefore it cannot be perfectThe word “religion” is derived from the Latin word “religo,” which means to tie, to fasten, or bind back. The words “ligament” and “legion” are also derived from the Latin root word “religo.” Religion really means the scientific understanding of the Supreme Controller of the Universe; to understand the Supreme Controller and to obey His laws.

Everyone (including those whom obey God's laws) sins everyday and are held accountable for them. Who told you this?

Have you still not learned that insults to me only do harm to your position of Islam being perfect? Are you obeying Gods laws by insulting me?You call them "insults"...I call them statements of truth...

"yes. The Holy Qur'an says so."

So why not defend your precious Qur'an with fact instead of attacking me?

"The word “religion” is derived from the Latin word “religo,” which means to tie, to fasten, or bind back. The words “ligament” and “legion” are also derived from the Latin root word “religo.” Religion really means the scientific understanding of the Supreme Controller of the Universe; to understand the Supreme Controller and to obey His laws."

EXACTLY!!!!...scentific understanding...Scientific: as relating to a systematic knowlege that is the subject of study. Man created the system AND it is still being studied..so it can't be perfect yet.

" Who told you this?"

What difference does that make...is it true or not true?

You call them "insults"...I call them statements of truth.

No you don't. You know they are insults..but you continue to lie to youself and eventually you will believe it. You have no other experience of me other than this fourm and although I may be igonorant about Islam, I am FAR from stupid and others who know of me on this fourm are my witnesses even though I don't need any.

Originally posted by A007
I agree with J'hiah...but it is ok J'hiah because I know I am not stupid and I believe you and others whom have debated with me know I am not stupid and I suspect that Aqil knows this too, but he is too blinded by his anger to realized that calling me stupid doesn't make me so. All it does is give people on Afronet a negative perception of Aqil and subsequently a negative perspective on Islam, because Aqil is susposed to be a good tenent of Islam yet he insults someone whose only objective it to gain knowledge through proper questioning. I have offered only one negative response in the midst of his many and my response only stated that two of Aqil statements were stupid and I shouldn't have made those because I should be above that. My only defense is that I am a work in progress and my journey is neverending.

PEACE:

"A007", I have read several of your posts in this "Spirituality and Religion" forum, and I have yet to find an instance in which it seems you were truly "someone whose only objective it to gain knowledge through proper questioning". It seems you have gone out of your way to be antagonistic toward Islam. Maybe you were refering to "J'hiah", but your objectives here does not seem to be so "pure".

We are ALL "works in progress", A007. But how far will we really PROGRESS if we are insulting, argumentative, or close-minded?

LM:confused:

LM--

The only people who seem to believe that I "have gone out of your way to be antagonistic toward Islam" are Muslims who believe my questions are out of line. Is this the case for you?

The only insults or arguements that have been offered by me were after REPEATED insults from Aqil. If you can find an instance where this is not the case please point it out.

Close-minded implies that one is not willing to entertain any new information on a subject. This is simply not true of me. It seems to be the disposition of Aqil though (and many other christians and muslims).

I have not once ATTACKED Islam with insults or degredation. I have only asked questions that I believe are VERY revelant to ALL religions not just Islam. In return I have recieved insults and ambiguity....why do you suppose that is?

"The only people who dislike good questions either have some to prove or something to protect" A.L. Bonds

Peace,

By negating the Holy Qur'an, you also negate the Bible and the Torah, as well as Psalms, because the Qur'an professes to be an "extension" or "completion" of these books...there is nothing but good written of those scriptures within the Qur'an....

However, A007, you've said:

1) You believe it is intelligent to say Islam is a PERFECT RELIGION?

2)You believe it is intelligent to say Obeying God's laws frees you from sin?

3a)RELIGION is man made therefore it can not be perfect.

3b)Everyone (including those whom obey God's law) sins everyday and are held accountable for them

4)Have you still not learned that insults to me only do harm to your position of Islam being perfect? Are you obeying Gods laws by insulting me?

Allow me to go through your questions and statements closely and ask some of my own....here goes...(I've numbered your questions/comments and have corelated the answers with the same number)

1)Aqil has said he believes Islam to be a perfect religion...I believe as he does...now, you've said that you have not read the Qur'an, and you obviously have not studied Islam, which is founded upon the Word of Allah, the Qur'an...really, you've got no lee way to speak on anything Islamic in that case.......however, you have, so I shall attempt to deal with what you have said....Islam is the complete submission of man's will to God...this means that man will do everything that God has put forward as laws and regulations..yes, man usually does not meet perfection, for God alone is perfect, but the whole thing is one must TRY to attain perfection...God is not cruel...God is the creator of man, He is the All-Knowing...He knows that man will not attain perfection..that is why He has set down rules for us to follow in our attempt to attain that state...and God forgives...that is why repentence of one's sin is important...Islam is a perfect religion because it teaches that one must live to adhere to God's Laws and Regulations....

2) Why is it NOT intelligent to say one will attain salvation when one follows God's laws?? Do not the ten commandments, and subsquently, the two golden rules, keep one from sinning?? regardless of the fact whether man does sin or not, do these rules/commandments not keep man from sinning if he were to follow them?? You must realize, Jesus (pbuh) followed ALL of God's laws/rules/commandments and that is why he is considered "sinless" by many...even Muslims, but we say this about all the Prophets and messengers of Allah....in any case, this man, Jesus (pbuh), obeyed all of God's rules and guess what?? HE WAS FREE OF SIN....so, it IS intelligent to say so...but what I would like to know from you is WHY IS IT NOT INTELLIGENT TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM???

3a) ahhhhhh....if that is the case, then please do NOT tell people that Jesus (pbuh) is the way to salvation...for that belief is ROOTED within RELIGIOUS doctrine, and therefore it is assumption at best....since religion is not perfect...u cannot pass off a perfect man when the accounts of man come from an "imperfect religion"......so, do you want to refine your statement, or are you willing to stick by it and admit that by making such a statement, your Christ (pbuh) may not be sinless and the means of your salvation after all??

3b) Jesus (pbuh) obeyed all of God's laws...yet, I guess by this statement, he too sinned...so you must either refine this again, or admit that Jesus (pbuh) is NOT sinless......a bind, ain't it? Why is everyone held accountable for their sins??? that doesn't make sense with your theory of salvation...

4) I cannot speak on what Aqil has learned, not learned, or even if there was a lesson for him to learn...however, I will say that, to me, this statement reeks of EXTREME IGNORANCE...allow me to explain why.....Aqil made the claim that Islam is perfect, not himself...for you to take one man's action and base your perception on what the religion/denomination he belongs to as having taught him the behaviour, especially when you have no knowledge of that said religion/denomination's doctrines is ignorant...for surely, you do not accept all non-Christians to assume that all Christians are child-molesters and sodomizers...or that all Jews are Zionists...or that all Americans are capitalists...or that...I'm sure you got my drift...I don't want to generalize.....

Anyhow, that's my two cents....

As-Salaam Alaikum

I will reply to your statements/questions by numbering them rather than quoting those that you have numbered. But first let me address your first statement. I am not negating the Qur'an as a good set of rules to follow some of God's laws. I believe the same of the Bible and the Torah. I believe there are only a few divinely inspired words of God in the Bible and Torah. I believe the same of the Qur'an. This doesn't negate any of them it only points out that none of them are perfect especially the Qur'an because it is a fusion of the Bible , the Torah, and one mans ambition to leave his legacy in religion.


!) You missed the whole point. PERFECT and RELIGION can not go together in the same phrase. I do undertand the stance of teaching one to adhere to God's laws ...but is Islam the only relgion that teaches that?

2) It is not intelligent to make such a claim because not only does following God's laws not serve as atonement for past sins, but we as HUMANS will never stop sinning no matter how many of these laws we try to follow...and if we will always sin...we can not be free from sin. Jesus was sinless because he follow God's laws to perfetion and the only way this was possible was because he was the son of God and BORN perfect. We are not.

3a) I did not say it was wrong for someone to root their beliefs in religious doctrine. What I said was RELGION (meaning ALL of them)can not be perfect. Of course we will get our ideas, beliefs, rules, faith from man made religion. But is it not possible to have faith in God and his will with adopting a specific religion?

3b) I would care to refine this statement to make it more clear. All of us today who live on earth sin everyday and are held accountable for them.

4) I understand where you are coming from. To generalize the religion because of the actions of one man WOULD amount to ignorance. However, this is not what I did. I have not passed judgement on Islam because of the actions of Aqil. I have formed OPINIONS AND BELIEFS based on research I have done on Islam and personal thought. My statemtent to him was not from my perspective but rather a perspective on-lookers whom have not researched or made of their mind as to wheather Islam is the perfect religion. And regardless of it being wrong or right people will make judgement calls on the religion based on how he treated me. The same can be said of any faith, race, organization, group etc. If there is a person speaking on the respective groups behalf and he/she behaves poorly, the group as a whole will get a bad wrap. Do you agree or disagree?

And for the record...you are the first Muslim whom has not attacked me because I didn't believe the faith was divinely inspired...and I have spoken with many. Thank you for your civilized questions and comments. Much respect.

Dre'

I did not say it was wrong for someone to root their beliefs in religious doctrine. What I said was RELIGION (meaning ALL of them) cannot be perfect.How do you know this?

Of course we will get our ideas, beliefs, rules, faith from man-made religion...Is there a religion other than "man-made"?

I would care to refine this statement to make it more clear. All of us today who live on earth sin everyday and are held accountable for them.Who told you this? Does the Pope sin? What sin do you commit everday? You make it sound as if it's a sin to be born...Is it?

"How do you know this? "

Because nothing that man creates is Perfect.

"Is there a religion other than "man-made"?

No... THAT'S MY POINT!!!!! they are man made so they can not be perfect.

"Who told you this? Does the Pope sin? What sin do you commit everday? You make it sound as if it's a sin to be born...Is it?"

Yes the Pope sins...lol. You believe he doesn't? We don't know what he does. He could be molesting kids just like many of the priests in the catholic church. Because he is the Pope means he is not prone to human impulses and faults?? I think not. "everyday" was a figure of speech. I sin by lusting, coveting, eating too much, and sometimes not loving my neighbor. No it is not a sin to be born. But as sure as we are born ...we will sin.

Aqil: "How do you know this? "

Because nothing that man creates is perfect.Man was created in the image of God...isn't God perfect? He didn't place an "inherent sin" in His creation, did He?

Aqil: "Is there a religion other than "man-made"?

No... THAT'S MY POINT!!!!! they are man-made so they cannot be perfect.Are you saying that everything man makes is imperfect?

Aqil: "Who told you this? Does the Pope sin? What sin do you commit everday? You make it sound as if it's a sin to be born...Is it?"

Yes the Pope sins...lol. You believe he doesn't? We don't know what he does. He could be molesting kids just like many of the priests in the Catholic Church. Because he is the Pope means he is not prone to human impulses and faults?? I think not.First you say the Pope sins, then you say we don't know what he does...then you tell me what he could be doing! The epitome of abstruse ambiguity indeed, A007!!! How do you know the Pope sins? He is a religious leader of millions of people around the world...who are you to say that he sins?

"Everyday" was a figure of speech. I sin by lusting, coveting, eating too much, and sometimes not loving my neighbor. No it is not a sin to be born. But as sure as we are born ...we will sin.Well since you believe in God sans all dogma, who told you that lusting was a sin? Who told you that coveting was a sin? Who told you that eating too much was a sin? Who told you that not loving your neighbor was a sin? And who told you that as sure as we are born, we will sin? Where did you get all of this from? And finally, A007, what is sin?

God is perfect....Man is not.

Yes I am saying that everything man makes is imperfect....ESPECIALLY things that are based on theory not fact.

I know the Pope sins because he is a man. Who am I to say so? A man that has a grasp on reality.

You and I both know what sin is ...don't waste my time questions you know the answer to so you can try to play word games with my answer.

Do you know of any man on earth now who does not sin?

Peace,


ahhhh but the Catholic Church contends that the Pope is God's vicegerent (spelling?) on earth and that he IS infallible..........do you hold that the Catholic Church does not practice "perfect" Christianity? or even correct Christianity because it's made the Pope infallible??

I hold that the Catholic Church does not practice "perfect" Christianity because it is a man-made religion. The fact that they believe the Pope is infallible is just extra evidence that Religion is not perfect.

You and I both know what sin is...My thoughts re: sin are in my thread, "Re: The Definition of Sin." If you agree with them, then your above statement is true...

Thats a good definition.

however, Is their a list of God's laws in Islam...if so...what are they?

Islam has two sources of authority. The first is the word of God given in the Qur'an. The second is the "sunnah," the body of traditions that preserves the words and conduct of Prophet Muhammad. Muslim scholars use these sources to understand the principles of the Shariah, an Arabic word that means "the way that leads to God." It refers to the divinely revealed and inspired Islamic law that plays a central role in the lives of Muslims throughout the world.

Scholars recognize four main sources for interpreting the Shariah and applying it to daily life. They are (1) the Qur'an, (2) the sunnah, (3) extending the reasoning of previous laws to new situations, and (4) the views of Muslim scholars and jurists.

In theory, all Islamic law is divine in origin. In practice, however, most sources of Muslim law are found in the sunnah rather than the Qur'an, particularly in the part of the hadith that reflects Muhammad's interpretation of the Qur'an's rulings. The practice of deriving present-day laws from the sources of the Shariah is called "fiqh." There are several schools of fiqh, each named after the founder of a method of interpretation. Although most Muslims agree about the major points of Islam, differences do exist, based on the opinions of the different schools of fiqh.

Actions in Islamic law are judged on five values: (1) obligatory (required), (2) recommended, (3) neutral, (4) disapproved, and (5) forbidden. Most religious duties, such as the Five Pillars, are obligatory. Anyone who fails to perform them may be punished by God or the Islamic state. For example, in many Muslim countries, refusal to fast during Ramadan may result in fines or imprisonment. In some Muslim countries, special organizations ensure that people make their five daily prayers at the proper time and follow accepted standards of dress and behavior.

Most actions in Islamic law are not obligatory. People who fail to perform acts that are recommended or neutral are seldom punished. Most acts that are clearly forbidden are mentioned in the Qur'an. They include adultery, gambling, cheating, consuming pork or alcoholic beverages, and lending money at interest.

The Qur'an details severe punishments for such crimes as murder, theft, and adultery. Crimes are punished harshly because they violate not only the rights of the victim, but also the commands of God. The Qur'an seeks to lessen the severity of these punishments, however, by urging Muslims to practice mercy and not yield to revenge.

Again on Islamic law:

"Hast thou not seen that to Allah submits whosoever is in the Heavens and whosoever is in the Earth, and the Sun, and the Moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts, and the many of mankind? But there are many who become deserving of punishment. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can raise him to honor. Verily, Allah does what He pleases." (Sura Al-Hajj, ayah 19)

God has fixed certain laws - natural laws, that all created things - animate or inaminate - have to obey. There is no escape to the submission of these laws. There are, however, certain other laws - the laws of the Shariah that God has revealed for the guidance of man. Man may obey or disobey and defy these laws, and may suffer the consequence of his defiance.

The verse further brings home to idolaters the folly and futility of their taking the objects of nature for worship beside Allah. It says that all these things depend upon Him for their very existence. They submit to the laws He has fixed for them, and cannot live independently of God for a moment. It is sheer folly, therefore, to adore and worship things and beings that are themselves subject to God-made laws...

Are there any laws in your religious philosophy?

Great information. Are the laws that you refer to in the Shariah to numerous to mention or did you just choose not to?

In my religious philosophy all of the rules and practices stem from the Mosaic Commandments.

!) Love thy God and see no other as his equal.

2) Love thy Neighbor

3) Do not defile thy temple.

Almost every other rule of every other relgion with the exception of prayer can be traced back to those three commandments. Now as far as day to day living and worship I try to follow the words of Jesus as written in the Gospels and all other sources that give an account/interpretation of what Jesus may have said and done in his life.

Great information. Are the laws that you refer to in the Shariah to numerous to mention or did you just choose not to?In theory all Islamic law is divine in origin. In practice, however, most sources of Islamic law are found in the sunnah rather than the Qur'an, particularly in the part of the hadith that reflects Prophet Muhammad's (saw) interpretation of Qur'anic rulings. The practice of deriving present-day laws from the sources of the Shariah is called "fiqh." There are several schools of fiqh, each named after the founder of a method of interpretation. Although most Muslims agree about the major points of Islam, differences do exist, based on the opinions of the different schools of fiqh...

In my religious philosophy all of the rules and practices stem from the Mosaic Commandments.Could you direct me to a scripture that contains the "Mosaic Commandments" you refer to?

Now as far as day-to-day living and worship I try to follow the words of Jesus as written in the Gospels, and all other sources that give an account/interpretation of what Jesus may have said and done in his life.Then you're a Christian, right? If not, why Jesus?

in theory, all Islamic law is divine in origin. In practice, however, most sources of Muslim law are found in the sunnah rather than the Qur'an, particularly in the part of the hadith that reflects Prophet Muhammad's (saw) interpretation of Qur'anic rulings. The practice of deriving present-day laws from the sources of the Shariah is called "fiqh." There are several schools of fiqh, each named after the founder of a method of interpretation. Although most Muslims agree about the major points of Islam, differences do exist, based on the opinions of the different schools of fiqh...

Yes i read that...the question was meant to ask....why didn't you list the major points?


"Could you direct me to a scripture that contains the "Mosaic Commandments" you refer to?"

refer to numbers 1. 2. and 3. in my pevious post.

Then you're a Christian, right? If not, why Jesus?

I believe Jesus was the son of God and he lived a sinnless life. Does that make me christian? Because earlier you told me it didn't.

Christians don't claim me because I say that there are man made flaws in the Bible. To me this does not negate the validaty of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. But..to most christians my veiws do negate it. I don't know ..you tell me if I am to be considered a christian. I don't have a need to belong to a particular religion, or group, in order to validate my faith so I normally just say that I am a Pluralist.

Could you direct me to a scripture that contains the "Mosaic Commandments" you refer to? Refer to numbers 1, 2 and 3 in my pevious post.I did...here they are:

1. Love thy God and see no other as his equal.
2. Love thy neighbor.
3. Do not defile thy temple.

You haven't answered my question...

Then you're a Christian, right? If not, why Jesus?
I believe Jesus was the son of God and he lived a sinless life. Does that make me Christian? Because earlier you told me it didn't.I did not tell you that believing Jesus was the son of God and he lived a sinless life does not make you a Christian. I said becoming a Christian does not refer to a belief that a certain man was killed by a mob in order that our sins might be forgiven.

Christians don't claim me because I say that there are man-made flaws in the Bible. To me this does not negate the validity of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. But...to most Christians my views do negate it. I don't know...you tell me if I am to be considered a Christian. I don't have a need to belong to a particular religion or group in order to validate my faith, so I normally just say that I am a Pluralist...A Pluralist is one who adheres to philosophical pluralism...the doctrine that reality is composed of many ultimate substances...or the belief that no single explanatory system or view of reality can account for all the phenomena of life. Do you adhere to religious pluralism also?

By religious pluralism you mean what?

I believe that it is possible for different people to experience God in different (equally as right) ways. I don't believe God can be put in a box of one religion which states specifically how God can be worshiped. This belief of mine stems from a simple belief that Man's intervention in spirituallity ultimately does it a disservice because we are not perfect and we will always disagree.

Here is the foundation of our disagreement (muslims and I) Muslims believe the Qur'an are the words of God I do not. And neither side can be proved.

By religious pluralism you mean what?You call yourself a "Pluralist," one who adheres to philosophical pluralism. Do you adhere to religious pluralism as well?

I believe that it is possible for different people to experience God in different (equally as right) ways. I don't believe God can be put in a box of one religion which states specifically how God can be worshiped. This belief of mine stems from a simple belief that man's intervention in spirituality ultimately does it a disservice because we are not perfect and we will always disagree.Man does not "intervene" in spirituality, A007. Spirituality was created by God...it's part of the human triad of life...the physical, the mental, and the spiritual...

Here is the foundation of our disagreement (Muslims and I). Muslims believe the Qur'an are the words of God I do not. And neither side can be proved.Why don't you believe the Qur'an is the word of God? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God? Do you believe the Torah is the word of God? Do you believe the Talmud is the word of God? Do you believe the Bhagavad Gita is the word of God? Where can I find the basis of your beliefs...other than what you tell me?

I believe all of the books you have named have words from God in them...but the books in their entirety are not All The Words of God

Oh and you can only find the basis of my belief in all the history of the world...and that is...that man makes mistakes...and man has had his interpretation and limited knowledge stamped on every religion

So the basis of your religious belief is that man makes mistakes? Is there a name for this?

Not that I know of...I'm sure there can be a label attached to it...but It has never been important for me to name it.

If ventured to come up with a name...I would give it a preliminary name of 'HUMAN ERROR"

Do you know of anyone else who believes in the "Human Error" religion? Where do you worship?

I know of other Plurists (religious). I worship at many different places. I do not have a home place of worship. I feel llike that would be very limiting.

The correct spelling is "Pluralists."

thanks..:lol:

You should always know how to spell your religion...:)

thanks again :lol:

typographical error does not = not knowing the correct spelling.

If you refer to previous posts of mine you will find the correct spelling.

FYI...it is not a religion...it is a way of acknowledging God by incorporating many religions and/or schools of thought.

Are the only comments or questions you have about my way of worship about the spellings?

FYI...it is not a religion...it is a way of acknowledging God by incorporating many religions and/or schools of thought.Can you name some of the religions and/or schools of thought that you incorporate in acknowledging God?

Are the only comments or questions you have about my way of worship about the spellings?Of course not...no need to get defensive. In case you hadn't noticed, I always correct the misspellings and typographical errors that I find in your posts...

Religions and schools of thought that I incoporate in my acknowledging God include but aren't limited to:

Philosophies of De'carte, Hume, Socrates, Christianity, Judaism, Buddism, and I am just now studying..Islam, Hinduism, and Scientology.

I did come across as defensive, but that was not my intent...it was supposed to be poking fun and proding you to ask a question.

As for your corrections of my spelling...some are appreciated...i.e. the wheather--weather incident. However, this last correction had not taken into consideration that I hadn't misspelled Pluralist/Pluralism up to that point so it seemed like you were poking fun...so I was doing it back...I thought it was the only humor in our debates thus far.

The correct spellings are "Descartes" and "Buddhism"...:)

:lol: I mispelled buddhism on purpose to see if you would correct ....but.. Decarte...is spelled just that way...Rene Decarte..I'm sure you will check it out.

peace

:lol: I mispelled buddhism on purpose to see if you would correct...You misspelled it several times in earlier posts...:D

Decarte...is spelled just that way...Rene Decarte...I'm sure you will check it out.You're wrong again, A007...the name is spelled Rene Descarte. I'm sure YOU will check it out...:)

lol.....You are correct...in my haste to remove the last "s" you had on Descartes
I removed both. I stand corrected.

Back to the topic of my thread:

THE HOLY QUR'AN

Of all the holy books revealed to different prophets for the guidance of mankind, the Holy Qur’an occupies a unique position in the sense that it is meant for all times and climes until the end of the world – because it is the last word of Allah (God), after which no revealed book is to come...

Islam is a perfect religion, so it touches every aspect of human activity. Therefore, the Holy Qur’an contains a complete code of life which may be required by man at any time and in any place...

The Qur’an is not a book containing theories, but it is the book which always exhorts mankind to practice and action. It always extends an invitation to think, to ponder and to contemplate over the mysteries of the Universe. It is the book not only to recite, but to understand and apply the instructions in one’s own life. The Qur’an contains revolutionary ideas so that a man lying in the deep, dark dungeons of degradation can come up and soar high to reach the zenith of greatness and glory...

The Qur’an contains such knowledge and enlightenment that it shall never be ineffective, futile, or fruitless. It carries in its word wisdom so deep that an ordinary man cannot actually reach those depths. It is a highway that will not mislead anybody. It is a light that will never die out. It creates such distinction between truth and falsehood that its decisions will never be challenged or refuted...

Its exhortations cannot be proven wrong. It is the cure for perverse minds. It is a power that cannot be overthrown. It is truth personified. Its supporters will never feel sorry for the support given to it. It is a mine of faith, a spring of knowledge, and a fountainhead of equity and justice...

The wisdom that the Holy Qur’an contains and the learning it imparts cannot be exhausted. It is such a destination that those who aim to reach it will never go astray. It is such a landmark that those who follow the path of truth will never miss it. It is such a sublime source of information that nothing can surpass it. God has made it a blessing for the learned, wise and pious persons, an unfailing remedy for the wicked, and a source of illumination for those in the depths of darkness...

It is a powerful binding force to keep men within the bonds of truth, faith and love. It is the safest refuge from sin and vice. It is the harbinger of peace for humanity. It honors those who accept it, guides those who follow it, profits those who act according to its dictates...and it acts as a sound argument for those who speak through it...

The Qur'an brings success to those who embrace it. It is the quickest and shortest way to salvation for those who formulate their lives according to its tenets. It is the easiest and best form of explanation for those who want to understand the principles of truth and piety. So far as the history of mankind is concerned, it is the best source of information; and so far as justice and equity is concerned, it is the best code of law...

“Thou receivest the Qur’an from One All-wise, All-knowing.” (Surah 27:6)

Just to add another point, the wisdom of the Qur'an can be found not only in particular passages or verses, but in individual words as well. I have come across innumerable gems from doing a word-for-word study of the Qur'an. Arabic words (like all Semitic languages), are derived from triliteral roots, and this linguistic quality provides for some truly profound content. I highly suggest that anyone who has an interest in Qur'anic exegesis study Arabic lexicology and etymology too. I don't know of any other scripture that can parallel the Qur'an when it comes to layer upon layer of meaning, depth, and (literally) WORD-FOR-WORD wisdom.

Assalamu alaykum

Wa-'laikum-Salaam, imam_nasir...and shokran. El haqq...Jazak'lah.

Originally, at least as far back as Kemet. We didn't have religion. We had ancestor worship, spirituality.

The meaning of the word sin. In Hebrew, is restricted body. Jesus was born without sin. meaning he could ascend without being tied down by the body. The body is considered prison. We are in lock down as long as we exist in the "shell" we call body. This is also known as the triple black ness of space. When the vail is lifted we will not be in this 3d existence.

Thank you for your enlightening comments, Sekhemu. And regarding your statement concerning spirituality I might add that the Christian concept of the spiritual trinity originated in Africa. In ancient Kemetian eschatology (i.e., Ma'at) the original trinity was, Birth, Life, and Death, the unversal three-in-one. Here is the interpretation:

Birth is represented by the father, because there can be no birth without the father...

Life is represented by the Sun, because there can be no life without the Sun...

Death frees the spirit entombed in the flesh, thereby enabling it to return to the Source from which it emanated...

These and many other profound teachings were perverted through misinterpretation and mistransliteration, done mainly by the Jews, who developed their own version of the trinity as we know it today: “The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost”...

the Holy Qu'ran acknowledges Jesus as being perfect. NO sin.
Not even prophet Muhammad was w/o sin.

Aqil, what would you use to take away the streaks and stains for your car a dirty towel or a clean one??


Its best to learn Classical Arabic if you can just take you time , Most muslims of the east are speaking a Dialect Of Arabic , What sad is throughout the muslim world most muslims can not Read , Write , Speak Arabic Fluently , Today the entire Arab world speak poor Dialects of Arabic according to their own county , Which in most cases is mixed with other languages such as Greek , Spanish , French , English , Bantu , And many other languages. Each Arab country has created their own form of Arabic . They use poor Dialect such as the ....
Word Dialect
How Chayf Shlown
What Aysh Ma
Sheeno Shu
Shin Mu
Yes Ay Aywa
Na;am I
Ina'am Wai
Where Hayn Fayn
Wayn Ayna
Weno
We Ihna Nahnu
Water Ma'a Moia
Maya
In Fe Aku
Shay Shii
Shast Bu
Not Mu Mub
Mush Laa
Laysa Lim
The script that the present day Qur'an is in , It is not from the Original , The present day script of the Qur'an is a form of Farsi ( Persian ) , Although , there are a variety of different Dialects and scripts of the Qur'an , Farsi isthe most widely used , And muslims acts as if there is only one Qur'an , In the same Script and Dialect . When you say to them , The Qur'an has been tampered with just like The Bible , Their response is '' Not In The Orginal Arabic '' Sadly , that not true . The Arabic is also Corrupted and Tampered with and each Qur'an is different in Different Islaamic Countries . There is an African Qur'an , Pakistanian Qur'an , Persian Qur'an , A variety of Kufic Script of the Qur'an , A Moroccan Qur'an And the list goes on and on . Again . The muslim world has done this purposely . To confuse You Non - Arabic speaking muslims , with all of these different script and Dialects , Muslims will swear that the Arabic in all Qur'an are Correct . In Suratul Falaq of the Moroccan Koran , The Nuqta is under the letter Faa When it should be over The Faa , At the end of the word Falaq . The Nuqtas are missing . However , they have Nuqtas over The Alif ( l ) which is totally Incorrect , This Change the word , meaning and the pronunciation . Again to a person who does not know the language , they will be misguided . I know muslims who havebeen muslims for 15 / 20 years in America and the caribbeans , And don't know Arabic fluently , People go to Germany And France A To Speak German And French in two years, Why is it that peoplecan learn German and French for pleasure, But a religious zealous Muslim can't learn Arabic in 15 / 20 years ?
Translators today also mistranslate certain words , To hide their meaning , take a look at the chart below ...
Word Incorrect Translation Correct Translation
Al Hamdu Praise Graditude
Qur'an 7 ; 43
Saalihaat Righteous Perfection
Qur'an 35 ; 7
Allah God The Source
Quran 20 ; 14
Rasuwl Prophet Newsbearer
Qur'an 19;19
Muslimiyn Submitter One Who Is Of Peace
Qur'an 22; 78
Zowj Wife Mate , One Of A Pair
Qur'an 24 ; 6
Qississiyn Monk Christian
Qur'an 5 ; 82
Isa Jesus Yashu'a
Qur'an 2 ; 87
Uzurq , Zurqaan Blur Blue Eyed
Umi Illiterate Gentile
Qur'an 7 ; 158
Khaliyfah Vice - Regent Left Behind
Qur'an 35 ; 39
Taqtaluwnaa Fight Kill
Qur'an 2 ; 87
Ibaadihi His Servant His Slave
Qur'an 35 ; 25
Aqra Recite Read
Qur'an 96 ; 1
One Must Understand The Language Of There Holy Book Be It The Bible Or Qur'an That it was originally write in to know what it saying . Because of the thousand's Mistranslation and Translation and Diffrent Version Of The Qur'an and Bible . Hope I Have Help You . If You Wish I Can Give You Some Of The Deffrent Names Translator Of the Qur'an

:geek:

And this lends itself to the idea that there is no WORD of God written in any text. To think that God could not foresee that: (#1 a text would have to be translated (because humans are lazy) to be understood by everyone. #2 there would be such huge amounts of confusion and division over what different scriptures "meant". #3 The massive about of bloodshed and oppression that would take place due to the misuse of such a text.) is highly unlikely and goes against the very nature of God which is LOVE.

“Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scriptures is dead. For I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws in writing, but through the living word. The law is the living word of the living God to living prophets for living men.

In everything that is life the law is written. You find it in the grass, in the trees, in the rivers, in the mountains, in the birds of heaven, in the fish of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture – which is without life. God so-made life and all living things that they might – by the ever-living word – teach the laws of the one true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit.”

(The words of Jesus in the Essene Gospel of Peace)

“Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scriptures is dead. For I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws in writing, but through the living word. The law is the living word of the living God to living prophets for living men.

In everything that is life the law is written. You find it in the grass, in the trees, in the rivers, in the mountains, in the birds of heaven, in the fish of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture – which is without life. God so-made life and all living things that they might – by the ever-living word – teach the laws of the one true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit.”

(The words of Jesus in the Essene Gospel of Peace)

Why Do The Sunni Muslims Preserve Artifacts Of The Prophet Muhammad Like The Christian Do With Jesus ?

I saw your query in another thread, IssaEl21. Is it against Shariah to preserve artifacts of the Prophet (saw)?

I saw your query in another thread, IssaEl21. Is it against Shariah to preserve artifacts of the Prophet (saw)?

The Orthodox Sunni Muslims Have Even Made Jerusalem , A Site One Visited By The Prophet Muhammad , An Object Of Worship . In The Temple Called The Dome Of The Rock Or Qubah As Sakhrah , In Jerusalem There Is A Relic Of Two Of The Prophet Muhammad's Whiskers And His '' Footprint On A Rock . The Orthodox Sunni Muslim Have Made Jerusalem APlace Of Rock And Foorprint Worship . The Only People In The Scriptures Who Worshipped '' Rocks '' Were The Pagans , The Heathens , The Astray , And The Idol Worshippers . The Following Quotes Reveal That Early . '' False God's Were Made Of '' Rocks ;
The Book Of Deuteronomy 32 ; 37 - 38 ( In Hebrew ) ( Revealed In Moab 1473 B.C.E.
And He Shall Say , Where Are Their God's , Their Rock In
Whom They Trusted , Which Did Eat The Fat Of Their Sacrifices
And Drank The Wine Of Their Drink Offerings ? Let Them Rise Up
And Help You , And Be Your Protection .
The First Book Of Samuel 2 ; 2 ( In Hebrew ) ( Revealed In Israel 1077 B.C.E. )
There Is None Holy As The Sustainer ; For There Is None
Beside Thee , Neither Is There Any Rock Like Our God .
Now , If The Prophet Muhammad Ascended From This '' Rock And Left His Footprint There Then Are You Saying That Muhammad Ascended To Heaven As A Physical Person ? Omly Physical Person Have Feet Can Leave Footprints . If Muhammad Really Did Leave His Print In The Rock , It Must Have Been Soft Like Clay Or Cement , Not A Hard Rock . Who Are Muslims Trying To Fool With This Story ? If He Would Have Ascended As A Spirit , Then There Would Have Been No Foorprint On The Rock' . So , Are You Saying Again That Heaven Is A Physical Place ? There Are No Verse in The Scripture Which Support The Worship Of Rocks , Nor Their Preservation , Nor Their Their Bathing , Nor Their Adoration , Etc . This Is a Practice Of Heathens ! < The Dome Of The Rock ' Which House The Footprint Of Muhammad And Two Of Whiskers In A Glass Case > . The Preserved '' Whiskers'' Of The Prophet Muhammad Are Considered A Relic In Jerusalem And Also In India. In The Year 1964 A.D There Was A Terrible Conflict In India . Which Arose After The Theft Of A Holy Relic Of Muhammad . The Holy Relic Which Cause The Feud Was A Whisker Supposedly Belonging To Muhammad , Which Is Preserved In Hazratbal , A Holy Shrine In India ( From New York Time , Tuesday , May 22. 1990 A.D. ) < Anyone Can ReSEACRH This If They Wish >
Aren't You Orthodox Sunni Muslims Worshipping Object And Relics Just Like The Christian ? In Christianity They Have The Following Relics Which They Say Belonge To The Messsiah Yashua Or Were From His Day And Time .
* The crown of thorns he wore
* waterpots used in the miracle at the wedding feast
* The crib of Yashua And The Baby Clothes he wore
* The Foreskin Of His Circumcision .
Orthodox Sunni Muslims Have Even Preserved A '' Shawl '' Which Was Supposedly Word By Muhammad , < It Is Considered A '' Treasure '' And Kept In The Ottoman Topkapi Palace Museum , Istanbul , Turkey . > Now , What Is The Difference Between Christianity And The Sunni Orthodox Muslims Verse Of Islam ? '' Relic '' . You Orthodox Sunni Muslims Hake Taken Islam And Made It A Paganistic Religion Which Is Not Founded On The Scripture Of Allah . ( There Is A Place Located Within The Masjidul Haran ( Sacred House Of Worship ) In Mecca Which Is Called '' Maqaamu Ibrahim , Which They Translate As '' Station Of Abraham ''.) . Maqaamu Ibrahim Is Mentioned Twice In The Qur'an ; The Qur'an 2 ; 125 , And 3; 96 . Because They Don't Know What Maqaamu Ibrahim Is , They Have Assumed That It Is In Reference To An Indentation In A Rock Which They Say Is The Foorprint Of The Prophet Abraham .
The Qur'an 2 ; 125 ( In Arabic ) ( Originally The 87th Chapter Revealed In Medina 624 - 626 A.D. - Verse 286 Revealed In Mecaa 632 A.D. )
'' Remember We Made The House A Place Of Assembly For Men And A Place Of Safety ; And Take Ye The Station Of Abraham As A Place Of Prayer ; And We Covenanted With Abraham And Isma'il , That They Should Sanctify My House For Those Who Compass It Round , Or Use It As A Reteat Or Bow , Or Prostrate Themselves ( Therein In Prayer ) .
These Verse Are Not In Reference To The '' Footprint '' Of The Prophet Abraham . Maqaamu Ibraham Is Referring To Mecca Itself Which Was Ordained By Allah As The Qiblah Direction Of Worship , For Muslims , This Is The Hadith = Words Of Men And Not Of Allah , You Use To Justify Your Actions ;
693 . Narrated Ibn '' Umar ; The Prophet Reached Mecca Circumambulated The Ka'ba Seven Time And Then Offered A Two Rak'at Prayer Behind Maqam - Ibrahim , Then He Went Towards The Safa . Allah Has Said , Verily In Allah's Messenger You Have A Good Examole < Sahih Al Bukhari , Volume 2 , Page 404 >
The Orthodox Sunni Muslims Have Created Another '' Relic '' Because They Don't OverStand The Trure Meaning Of The Qur'an . The Footprint Which Is Revere In Mecca Is Encased In A Small Building Which Has Six Pillars About 8 Feet High , Four Of Which Are Surrounded By A Fine Iron Railing . Within The Railing Is A Five Feet Square , With A Pyramid Top , Said To Contain The Sacred Stone Upon Which The Prophet Abraham Stood When He Built The Ka'ba . This Structure Is A Short Distance From The Black Stone . This '' Stone '' Is Revered By Both Young And Old When They Visit The Sacred House Of Worship In Mecca . In The Vicinity Of Maqaamu Ibraham , The Pilgrims Recite The Qur'an 2 ; 125 And Perform Two Bowing During The Rites Of Pilgrimage . It Is Ridiculous To Assume That The Qur'an 2 ; 125 And 3 ; 96 Are Referring To The Prophet Abraham's Footprint And That It Should Be Revered In This Manner . Do You Orthodox Sunni Muslims Really Think That The Prophet Abraham Left His Footprint On This Rock Which You Hold So Dear And Wanted It To Be Encased And Made Into A Relic In A Gilded Structure ? Where Is The Apostle Ishmael's Footprint ? ( Wasn't He There Also ? ) . These Are The '' Three Holiest '' Place In Islam , The Ka'ba ( The Quran 22 ; 26 ) And Masjidul Aqsaa
( The Quran 17 ; 1 ) Are Both Mentioned In The Quran , But Masjidun Nabawi , Where Muhammad Is Buried , Is Not , If You Say You Are Not Worshippers Of '' Mohammed Then Why Have You Made This City A '' Holy City '' . Nicknamed It '' The City Of The Prophet '' And Visited It During Hajj ( Pilgrimage ) . You Orthodox Sunni Muslims Have To Realize That What You Are Doing Is Wrong , No True Muslim Should Be Worshipping Idols . Stones , Or Relies Because This Is Going Against The Scriptures Of Allah .
The Qur'an 13 ; 16 ( In Part In Arabic ( Originalally The 96th Chapter Revealed In Medina , 622 A.D. )
'' Say Who Is The Lord And Sustainer Of The Heavens And The Earth ? Say ( It Is ) God . Say Do Ye Then Take ( For Worship ) Protectors Other Than Him , Such As Have No Power Either For Good Or For Harm To Themselves ? :geek: :nono:

Thank you, IssaEl21...

Thank you, IssaEl21...

Marhaban - Bika < Aqil >

Afwan, IssaEl21...

“Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scriptures is dead. For I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws in writing, but through the living word. The law is the living word of the living God to living prophets for living men.

In everything that is life the law is written. You find it in the grass, in the trees, in the rivers, in the mountains, in the birds of heaven, in the fish of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture – which is without life. God so-made life and all living things that they might – by the ever-living word – teach the laws of the one true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit.”

(The words of Jesus in the Essene Gospel of Peace)

It's been a long while since I'd read the Gospel of Jesus.......

This serves as a good retort for those who seek to live their lives by the Scriptures, instead of the Divine Law of life.


SHUQRAN for posting this, AQIL.

SALAAM

Afwan, aqi...

Ma Salaam.