Very little thought is given in what it really means to be African American! First let's define what is an African American. Like many immigrants who come from different countries and cultures the term AA is a statement about where our descent is from but speaks of our claiming America as our home. But unalike those immigrants the AA is a natural descentant of America with over four hundreds some years of history on the Northern American continent. AA are a mixed race of Africans who trace their ancestoral roots to Africa and share a cultrual and affinity connection with Mother Africa. AA are mixed with Africa, European and Native American and counterwise all original colonists whites and Native Americans are mixed with African as well. Any dispute of this is ludacris for four hundred years is alot of time to have remain seperately pure for any of the three races. AA's have absorbed European ways and values as well as Native American's. One thing is clear is that we are unique and are not the same as the Africans whom we left behind or are immigrants here today.

Which brings me to my the point of a recent disscusion on Black People entitled "Tensions between African Americans and African Emmigrants". It is not possible to understand such a complex issue as this without digging into historical context. My first trace begans with Booker T Washington's book "Up From Slavery". In it he makes references to the highlights of his time after slavery where he states that Jim Crow prohibited the ex-slaves of that day from enjoying the same freedom as whites. Such as being able to stay at hotels, sit at salons and resturants which were only for whites. If a black was caught in such enviroments he would be in a lot of trouble and trouble at the time meant beat with a horse whip or lynched on the spot! But then he said that if the black could prove he was of African origin and not descentant of slaves then he could go about his business! Also he said that some Native Americans also viewed the Negro as being of less statue because the Indian would never accept slavery! Here you have disdain of AA's dating back into the late 18th century and this historical context is relvelant to today's tensions between AA's and black immgrants.

Remember the Amistad movie and book where African slaves revolted and where sent to trial and were aquitted because they proved that they came from area where Treaties had rendered taking slaves where illegal. They were therefore free to go and since free men had a right to revolt and kill their capturers. Historically those same Africans didn't return to their home but instead became slave capturers themselves. It is a common reality that all Africans don't share the same plight and some don't feel any empathy for others in dire situations. Self sacrifice is a rare quality among any race or species of animals not just Africans. Normally people do and think for themselves. Which brings me to my most crucial point of all and can be taken as condemnation but in light of the latter it is not.

When African immigrants from the West Indies, Africa and South America come here they come just like all other immigrants seeking success in America. They fall into communties of their own and they look out for each other. They have no connection to this land or it's social issues and could care less. Their main concern is pushing ahead and/or worrying about back home. Like anybody put in a situation where they have nothing to fall back upon their main focus is just that. This seems odd to most AA's and seems like African immigrants are selling out. We consider them to be our brothers and sisters and wish that they join us in our fight for freedom but they usaully don't. There are exceptions like Kwame Toure, Louis Farrakhan and Marcus Garvey among others but they are few and far in between. Your average African immigrant is concerned about getting the American dollar so he can be successful is it not true? To them money is freedom and success is everything since they are not connected to the land or its people! This is a daunting reality but it is nevertheless the absolute soul stirring truth.

African immigrants say that AA are lazy is this true? They say that AA are aggressive is this true? Yes and no. In this case sterotype has been twisted with perception and the truth hidden behind careless eyes. If we go back to the historical context we will see what the truth is. AA's have never recieved respect from this white society because of the stigma of slavery and looked down upon by Native Americans and African immigrants. Hiring pratices were and are still that we were hired last and fired first even African immigrants were a preference over us. The negative compaigning of the Ku Klux Klan during the late 18th and early 19th century had done it's work. Movies like the "Birth of a Nation" painted a picture of the negro as being inferior, incapable of positive enthusiaism, lazy, criminal and lusting after white women. The pictures showing Africa as a land of savages was done to make the American Negro believe he came from nothing contrary to this being a reason for AA's to look down upon Africans but themselves.

Further still American sambo and minstrel movies showed AA's as docile and subservient incapable of indepedent role thinking. This was all done over decades and showed around the world so like immigrants come here with a clear picture this was the land of opportuntity they were told to stay away from the negro for he was crazy, lazy and inhuman. But I'm sure most of you have heard or read this same information before so what makes it new? Go around the world and to visit the home of these African Immigrants who whites are saying work harder than us and are more civil than us. You will find in the West Indies blacks who don't have jobs sitting around, you will find criminals amongst the poorest communities. In Africa you will see the same things in the cities with tall skycrapers just like ours with folks sitting around who are unemployed and poor. But you will find it not on a racial oppression tip but ethnical and tribial trip. Are Africans and West Indies aggresive? Well they are just like AA's they are upset about the conditions of their homeland and some take to fighting in the streets and guerilla warfare against their governments. There are gangs and corruption in the police and the state leadership. So we see we are the same it's just that America is our home and you have a close up view of us but we don't have the same of you. We are fighting to live free in our homeland and you are fighting to getting ahead. We are not the same!

Our turn your view now to two stories that highlight our differences. Controversial but nevertheless significant enough to raise more than just eyebrows hopefully cause speculation and questioning. I explore the story of Malcolm X who was AA and father was killed by the Klan for fighting for freedom. Malcolm X lead a life of crime before being saved by the Nation of Islam. He almost singlehandly built the NOI from a small social club of old blacks to almost 10 millions members in the sixties. He and Louis Farrakhan were close friends with Louis being decendant of Jamaica. Malcolm taught Louis Farrakhan everything he knew about his revoltunary speaking style which is inherited from his father Mr.Little. Malcolm's only two sins were that he out shined his teacher Elijah Muhammad and he trusted a man he should have never trusted Louis Farrakahn. Louis used the power he had built on the East Coast with black muslim extremists and called for the assasination of Malcolm his friend. Malcolm and Louis differed this is true but how? Malcolm was AA and had more of a connection with his people and saw what Elijah Muhammad was doing teaching people that he was a messenger of a whiteman as wrong and not true Islam and sleeping with and spoiling black women. Sister Clara Muhammad Elijah's wife died of a heartbreak and if any brother wonders why black women are afraid of good men should never forget this historical event. Louis Farrakhan took his chance when Malcolm was in trouble and he let him have it. He has since apologized but let history show that Malcolm was a brother betrayed by his friend a West Indie immigrant who wanted only to succeed.

Next we have the story of yet another rebel Tupac Shakur. Tupac's mother was an very high memeber in the Panthers. She was on the forefront but like most of the Panthers they were targeted by infiltration into their ranks. The Panthers lacked moral grounding and purpatrators working for Conterintel program easily lead them into drug use and explicit sex styles. Tupac rose to stardom easily because of he inherited his mother's gift for articulation and charm. Coupled with the fact he went to art school where he learned the best techniques for writing and acting and inserted drama and poetry into his raps. He ruled the East and West coast but resided in Oakland. Biggie aka Christopher Wallace was of Jamaican Descendent knew Tupac and the two collabed. Tupac helped Biggie with his song writing and content and showed him how to inserted dramatic voice into his rap delivery. Biggie used to rap mostly battle rap like most Jamaicans he was good at toasting or telling insulting jokes against other emcees. Tupac let Biggie open at his shows and gave him a foundation and following before Puffy heard him on a demo tape and signed him. Tupac being in the industry longer knew Puffy ripped off artists and warned Biggie not to sign with him. Tupac visited a Manhattan studio where he was set up and shot. And while he layed upon the floor bleeding to death his friend Biggie along wth Puffy and Andre Arial stood there and giggled and walked away. Later while in prison on rape charges Tupac heard a tape by Biggie bragging subliminally called "Who Shot Ya" and LL Cool J recorded on the opposite of the CD taunted "I Shot Ya". Later Tupac was forced to change his whole ablum content due to Biggie his friend had stolen his ideas whom Tupac only shared with him. Tupac was the greatest rap artist in the history of the United States and has sold over 27.6 million records to date more than any other rap artists and he recorded such revolutionary songs as "The Whiteman's World". Tupac has been belittled as a thug but Tupac only said Thug life to depict how whites viewed AA's not to promote drug dealing and smuggling. Biggie who put success more than friendship and black alliance has prospered but it is my belief that their deaths were a misunderstanding and cultural differences.

AA's and African Immigrants have a long way to go with understanding each other. But we must not try to proceed without studying history so the same mistakes are not repeated. When people are different respecte is demanded and should be the highest priority before we can began to diaoloque. Yet being AA we are not going to get fully accepted by those who motives are predicated toward only prospering in Babylon and turning their backs upon the dream of Hallie Saliesse of One United Africa world where we all exist as equals.

Honestly brother/sister, Your points are not in support of your conclusion and there are many disasterous generalizations and misclassifications. For example, Malcolm X and Biggie are in the same boat, African American Father, Carribean mother. How one becomes full blown Jamaican descent is inconsistent with one being declared an African American. Still on misclassifications, I am yet to be convinced how an African American with no native indian or European blood in him whatsoever, is "different" from an "average" african.

Tupac vs. Biggie hardly passes for a epoch making event in African American Vs. African immigrants fiasco. Niether have I ever considered the words of a common criminal like Tupac as anything close to revolutionary. If he is a black Icon, then the black race is in serious trouble. However, Booker T. Washington's book on "Up From Slavery" seems to have touched on an interesting subject, as you have indicated in your post. I intend to read up on that. Still on Booker T. Washington, I will like to sum up my reply to your post by referencing his antithetical icon, W.E.B Dubois. He seems to have tocuhed on something serious with his "talented tenth" thesis. However, what plagues the African American- African relationship is an understanding that both peoples can work together to realize the vision of Dubois in which the talented few helps the less opportuned majority. This is especially so given the talented African immigrant academicians in Diaspora, can be accepted into projects which can uplift the African American community and also that the African American experience/position in diaspora could be of use in Africa as well.

First off Tupac was not a criminal only charged with crimes he didn't committ.

Second WEB Dubois helped ganther evidence that imprisoned Marcus Garvey!

Dubious advocate that the top ten who were lightskin blacks at the time should rule African Americans who had inherited education and wealth from their white slave master fathers. This is wrong all groups should be diverse with all consensus.

Not all lightskin blacks belonged to this ring however. But in Atlanta where Dubois taught darkskin blacks couldn't go to the schools because of the brown paper bag rule and comb tests. Even some of the churches practiced this policy.

I am lightskin and I lived in Atlanta and know the history.

Booker T was for all low class blacks regardless of the complexion he helped them. The man was a coward I admit for not standing up but he was not betrayer like Dubois.

To me the greatest sin is to betray one's own kind when you are a revolutionary there are few of us to begin with.

We should have judicial judgement by elders if one commits an offense but no one deserves the right to judge another. This is dangerous.

WEB Dubious comitted this on two occassins.

Good day my brother.

I love you.

Peace and I Love you too.
Dubois is not without his crimes. He probably belongs to the school of the likes of Mayor Nagin who openly brags to he constituency that his being a creole gives him the right to rule over them. However, the fact of a limited number of developed talents in the black community cannot be denied. It is my belief that these talents REGARDLESS OF THEIR COMPLEXION should be harnessed to uplift the others. Look at the contributions the middle class in India is making to the development of india. Now india will be next best thing After China in about two decades. And the middle class people are not even that much in India percentage wise.

It was Booker T who was applauded by the White Presidents of his time. Do you know why? Because he preached the "vocational training" of black people, rather than training in science and academia. Can you imagine the state of Black America if that had gone through? You will see a permanent underclass of vocational workers in a society of racist caste!! Much like the unsightly pattern you see in the hospitals with mostly black nurses and porters and Lily white doctors.

Infact, white nationalists love Booker T as opposed to Dubois because they knew which one of them posed the greater threat. And even though Booker T was given opportunities to speak before presidents and Ivy league university professors, he was bitten in the back by the very whites he amused. This is because, they chose to employ Irish and italian immigrants for vocational jobs.

How Ironic, that W.E.B Dubois, helped imprison an icon of the repartriation movement, and yet it is Dubois Himself who eventually settled, died and was buried in Ghana.

But Lets Fess up, Tupac was no Icon or someone whose life was worth learning from.

Akilles ... Hello and Welcome ... :wave:


Booker T was for all low class blacks regardless of the complexion he helped them. The man was a coward I admit for not standing up but he was not betrayer like Dubois.

I don't understand how you can color a Brother's life with the word "coward," while in the very sentence prior, you say he helped all "low class Blacks." That to me, does not a coward make.


To me the greatest sin is to betray one's own kind when you are a revolutionary there are few of us to begin with.

For any of us to disparage each other, especially our Ancestors, is damaging.

It's debatable and futile, determining who amongst us has done the greatest damage.

Welcome to the Family Akilles ... i'm enjoying reading you.

Please make yourself at home, because you are.

Check out our voice and video chat (http://destee.com/chat).

Vote in this poll (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37676) for me too please.

Thanks and Welcome again!

:heart:

Destee

But Lets Fess up, Tupac was no Icon or someone whose life was worth learning from.

Brother Militant ... all of our lives are worth learning from, and there are many who consider this Ancestor, an icon.

:heart:

Destee

Brother Militant ... all of our lives are worth learning from, and there are many who consider this Ancestor, an icon.

:heart:

Destee

All lives are worth learning from, but that does not make them iconic. Frankly I share militant's views on Tupac, as well as his earlier comments.

All lives are worth learning from, but that does not make them iconic. Frankly I share militant's views on Tupac, as well as his earlier comments.

Brother Pan ... i'm jes' say'n ... many will disagree with him, and you too.

I don't believe there is really a right or wrong here, more like a, to each his own.

:heart:

Destee

Brother Pan ... i'm jes' say'n ... many will disagree with him, and you too.

I don't believe there is really a right or wrong here, more like a, to each his own.

:heart:

Destee

I understand what you are saying Destee. However it should be pointed out that being an idol of millions doesn't make one positive. Al Capone is worshipped as well, but what he is worshipped for isn't positive! That so many of our youth (and those not so young) can mention Tupac and Biggie in the same breath as a Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, Frederick Douglass, and Du Bois is quite frightening to me!

I understand what you are saying Destee. However it should be pointed out that being an idol of millions doesn't make one positive. Al Capone is worshipped as well, but what he is worshipped for isn't positive! That so many of our youth (and those not so young) can mention Tupac and Biggie in the same breath as a Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, Frederick Douglass, and Du Bois is quite frightening to me!

Brother Pan ... i understand what you're saying too ... :love:

However, to take what others feel is positive, uplifting, etc., because you don't consider it as such, is wrong. I believe the challenge for all of us is to put ourselves in our Brothers / Sister's shoes. Stretch our own understanding and imagination, to embrace or at least respect, another's thoughts. Since it is primarily the youth that think the most high of Tupac, it is on the shoulders of the Elders, to bridge this gap.

Saying who they believe is an icon, isn't ... doesn't really do much to facilitate bridge building.

Rather, we must understand where they are and how they think as they do. From that point, we can begin working together to lift up the positives in each of our personal choices, and focus on moving forward together.

Simply saying someone's icon, hero, idol, what have you ... is undeserving ... is counter productive, in my opinion. It only serves to alienate those Sisters and Brothers that believe other than you.

:heart:

Destee

Brother Pan ... i understand what you're saying too ... :love:

However, to take what others feel is positive, uplifting, etc., because you don't consider it as such, is wrong. I believe the challenge for all of us is to put ourselves in our Brothers / Sister's shoes. Stretch our own understanding and imagination, to embrace or at least respect, another's thoughts. Since it is primarily the youth that think the most high of Tupac, it is on the shoulders of the Elders, to bridge this gap.

Saying who they believe is an icon, isn't ... doesn't really do much to facilitate bridge building.

Rather, we must understand where they are and how they think as they do. From that point, we can begin working together to lift up the positives in each of our personal choices, and focus on moving forward together.

Simply saying someone's icon, hero, idol, what have you ... is undeserving ... is counter productive, in my opinion. It only serves to alienate those Sisters and Brothers that believe other than you.

:heart:

Destee

No wonder Thugs are so popular in our community, and we're such an underachieving group! We need standards for what is and isn't aceptable behavior. We also don't need to glorify those who lived a detrimental lifestyle, no matter how talented they were. Tupac might have made "Brenda had a baby" and "Keep your Head Up" but his claim to fame was the "Thug Life". It was that lifestyle which caused his death, and is causing the death of the millions of young black men around the world who idolizes him. He wasn't a prophet...he wasn't a saint...he wasn't a revolutionary...he wasn't a radical...he was a thug who died like a thug! When it come to the safety and prosperity of our youth...I'm not politically correct. Tupac isn't deserving of the idolization he receives.

Very little thought is given in what it really means to be African American! First let's define what is an African American. Like many immigrants who come from different countries and cultures the term AA is a statement about where our descent is from but speaks of our claiming America as our home. But unalike those immigrants the AA is a natural descentant of America with over four hundreds some years of history on the Northern American continent. AA are a mixed race of Africans who trace their ancestoral roots to Africa and share a cultrual and affinity connection with Mother Africa. AA are mixed with Africa, European and Native American and counterwise all original colonists whites and Native Americans are mixed with African as well. Any dispute of this is ludacris for four hundred years is alot of time to have remain seperately pure for any of the three races. AA's have absorbed European ways and values as well as Native American's. One thing is clear is that we are unique and are not the same as the Africans whom we left behind or are immigrants here today.

Which brings me to my the point of a recent disscusion on Black People entitled "Tensions between African Americans and African Emmigrants". It is not possible to understand such a complex issue as this without digging into historical context. My first trace begans with Booker T Washington's book "Up From Slavery". In it he makes references to the highlights of his time after slavery where he states that Jim Crow prohibited the ex-slaves of that day from enjoying the same freedom as whites. Such as being able to stay at hotels, sit at salons and resturants which were only for whites. If a black was caught in such enviroments he would be in a lot of trouble and trouble at the time meant beat with a horse whip or lynched on the spot! But then he said that if the black could prove he was of African origin and not descentant of slaves then he could go about his business! Also he said that some Native Americans also viewed the Negro as being of less statue because the Indian would never accept slavery! Here you have disdain of AA's dating back into the late 18th century and this historical context is relvelant to today's tensions between AA's and black immgrants.

Remember the Amistad movie and book where African slaves revolted and where sent to trial and were aquitted because they proved that they came from area where Treaties had rendered taking slaves where illegal. They were therefore free to go and since free men had a right to revolt and kill their capturers. Historically those same Africans didn't return to their home but instead became slave capturers themselves. It is a common reality that all Africans don't share the same plight and some don't feel any empathy for others in dire situations. Self sacrifice is a rare quality among any race or species of animals not just Africans. Normally people do and think for themselves. Which brings me to my most crucial point of all and can be taken as condemnation but in light of the latter it is not.

When African immigrants from the West Indies, Africa and South America come here they come just like all other immigrants seeking success in America. They fall into communties of their own and they look out for each other. They have no connection to this land or it's social issues and could care less. Their main concern is pushing ahead and/or worrying about back home. Like anybody put in a situation where they have nothing to fall back upon their main focus is just that. This seems odd to most AA's and seems like African immigrants are selling out. We consider them to be our brothers and sisters and wish that they join us in our fight for freedom but they usaully don't. There are exceptions like Kwame Toure, Louis Farrakhan and Marcus Garvey among others but they are few and far in between. Your average African immigrant is concerned about getting the American dollar so he can be successful is it not true? To them money is freedom and success is everything since they are not connected to the land or its people! This is a daunting reality but it is nevertheless the absolute soul stirring truth.

African immigrants say that AA are lazy is this true? They say that AA are aggressive is this true? Yes and no. In this case sterotype has been twisted with perception and the truth hidden behind careless eyes. If we go back to the historical context we will see what the truth is. AA's have never recieved respect from this white society because of the stigma of slavery and looked down upon by Native Americans and African immigrants. Hiring pratices were and are still that we were hired last and fired first even African immigrants were a preference over us. The negative compaigning of the Ku Klux Klan during the late 18th and early 19th century had done it's work. Movies like the "Birth of a Nation" painted a picture of the negro as being inferior, incapable of positive enthusiaism, lazy, criminal and lusting after white women. The pictures showing Africa as a land of savages was done to make the American Negro believe he came from nothing contrary to this being a reason for AA's to look down upon Africans but themselves.

Further still American sambo and minstrel movies showed AA's as docile and subservient incapable of indepedent role thinking. This was all done over decades and showed around the world so like immigrants come here with a clear picture this was the land of opportuntity they were told to stay away from the negro for he was crazy, lazy and inhuman. But I'm sure most of you have heard or read this same information before so what makes it new? Go around the world and to visit the home of these African Immigrants who whites are saying work harder than us and are more civil than us. You will find in the West Indies blacks who don't have jobs sitting around, you will find criminals amongst the poorest communities. In Africa you will see the same things in the cities with tall skycrapers just like ours with folks sitting around who are unemployed and poor. But you will find it not on a racial oppression tip but ethnical and tribial trip. Are Africans and West Indies aggresive? Well they are just like AA's they are upset about the conditions of their homeland and some take to fighting in the streets and guerilla warfare against their governments. There are gangs and corruption in the police and the state leadership. So we see we are the same it's just that America is our home and you have a close up view of us but we don't have the same of you. We are fighting to live free in our homeland and you are fighting to getting ahead. We are not the same!

Our turn your view now to two stories that highlight our differences. Controversial but nevertheless significant enough to raise more than just eyebrows hopefully cause speculation and questioning. I explore the story of Malcolm X who was AA and father was killed by the Klan for fighting for freedom. Malcolm X lead a life of crime before being saved by the Nation of Islam. He almost singlehandly built the NOI from a small social club of old blacks to almost 10 millions members in the sixties. He and Louis Farrakhan were close friends with Louis being decendant of Jamaica. Malcolm taught Louis Farrakhan everything he knew about his revoltunary speaking style which is inherited from his father Mr.Little. Malcolm's only two sins were that he out shined his teacher Elijah Muhammad and he trusted a man he should have never trusted Louis Farrakahn. Louis used the power he had built on the East Coast with black muslim extremists and called for the assasination of Malcolm his friend. Malcolm and Louis differed this is true but how? Malcolm was AA and had more of a connection with his people and saw what Elijah Muhammad was doing teaching people that he was a messenger of a whiteman as wrong and not true Islam and sleeping with and spoiling black women. Sister Clara Muhammad Elijah's wife died of a heartbreak and if any brother wonders why black women are afraid of good men should never forget this historical event. Louis Farrakhan took his chance when Malcolm was in trouble and he let him have it. He has since apologized but let history show that Malcolm was a brother betrayed by his friend a West Indie immigrant who wanted only to succeed.

Next we have the story of yet another rebel Tupac Shakur. Tupac's mother was an very high memeber in the Panthers. She was on the forefront but like most of the Panthers they were targeted by infiltration into their ranks. The Panthers lacked moral grounding and purpatrators working for Conterintel program easily lead them into drug use and explicit sex styles. Tupac rose to stardom easily because of he inherited his mother's gift for articulation and charm. Coupled with the fact he went to art school where he learned the best techniques for writing and acting and inserted drama and poetry into his raps. He ruled the East and West coast but resided in Oakland. Biggie aka Christopher Wallace was of Jamaican Descendent knew Tupac and the two collabed. Tupac helped Biggie with his song writing and content and showed him how to inserted dramatic voice into his rap delivery. Biggie used to rap mostly battle rap like most Jamaicans he was good at toasting or telling insulting jokes against other emcees. Tupac let Biggie open at his shows and gave him a foundation and following before Puffy heard him on a demo tape and signed him. Tupac being in the industry longer knew Puffy ripped off artists and warned Biggie not to sign with him. Tupac visited a Manhattan studio where he was set up and shot. And while he layed upon the floor bleeding to death his friend Biggie along wth Puffy and Andre Arial stood there and giggled and walked away. Later while in prison on rape charges Tupac heard a tape by Biggie bragging subliminally called "Who Shot Ya" and LL Cool J recorded on the opposite of the CD taunted "I Shot Ya". Later Tupac was forced to change his whole ablum content due to Biggie his friend had stolen his ideas whom Tupac only shared with him. Tupac was the greatest rap artist in the history of the United States and has sold over 27.6 million records to date more than any other rap artists and he recorded such revolutionary songs as "The Whiteman's World". Tupac has been belittled as a thug but Tupac only said Thug life to depict how whites viewed AA's not to promote drug dealing and smuggling. Biggie who put success more than friendship and black alliance has prospered but it is my belief that their deaths were a misunderstanding and cultural differences.

AA's and African Immigrants have a long way to go with understanding each other. But we must not try to proceed without studying history so the same mistakes are not repeated. When people are different respecte is demanded and should be the highest priority before we can began to diaoloque. Yet being AA we are not going to get fully accepted by those who motives are predicated toward only prospering in Babylon and turning their backs upon the dream of Hallie Saliesse of One United Africa world where we all exist as equals.

No evidence has supported the rumours that Cinque became a slave trader. Malcolm X's mother was a bi-racial woman from Grenada, West Indies. Louis Farakhan is of Jamaican and Kittitian ( St. Kitts ) origin if I'm not mistaken. I've personally never heard any African say Black Americans were lazy and I've been there with the 'mixed Euro/Native American blood' arguement ( His Majesty Selassie has Semetic ancestry if you don't know ).

"No wonder Thugs are so popular in our community, and we're such an underachieving group! We need standards for what is and isn't aceptable behavior. We also don't need to glorify those who lived a detrimental lifestyle, no matter how talented they were. Tupac might have made "Brenda had a baby" and "Keep your Head Up" but his claim to fame was the "Thug Life". It was that lifestyle which caused his death, and is causing the death of the millions of young black men around the world who idolizes him. He wasn't a prophet...he wasn't a saint...he wasn't a revolutionary...he wasn't a radical...he was a thug who died like a thug! When it come to the safety and prosperity of our youth...I'm not politically correct. Tupac isn't deserving of the idolization he receives"

Although I understand your feelings on him being idolized and put into the same category as people like Malcolm X, he was a good but troubled person with a soft heart and I wouldn't talk about dead people.Although I'm not a disciple, I don't believe he was responsible for his death because although he promoted the Thug Life ideaology in his lyrics, he never killed anyone or hurt anyone for no reason whatsoever so I don't understand the arguement 'you live by the sword, you die by the sword' in this case, he simply talked about the sword. I also don't think he was obligated and stuck to the 'Thug Life' lifestytle like he claimed, now that I think about it, I once saw a picture of his mansion and it didn't look like he was struggling. I also agree that there are standards of maturity and behaviour men must conform to once they reach a certain age and can't excuse this. If he really honored his mother he would live a lifestyle that would make her proud, otherwise, evidently, she failed as a mother ( devils advocate could argue, not me ). He was an artist, so he deserves his credit in that area. Men like Rembrandt, Beethovan, Van Gogh etc. were also deeply troubled and the 'ruffians' of their day and produced some of the most respected work today.

Although I understand your feelings on him being idolized and put into the same category as people like Malcolm X, he was a good but troubled person with a soft heart and I wouldn't talk about dead people.Although I'm not a disciple, I don't believe he was responsible for his death because although he promoted the Thug Life ideaology in his lyrics, he never killed anyone or hurt anyone for no reason whatsoever so I don't understand the arguement 'you live by the sword, you die by the sword' in this case, he simply talked about the sword. I also don't think he was obligated and stuck to the 'Thug Life' lifestytle like he claimed, now that I think about it, I once saw a picture of his mansion and it didn't look like he was struggling. I also agree that there are standards of maturity and behaviour men must conform to once they reach a certain age and can't excuse this. If he really honored his mother he would live a lifestyle that would make her proud, otherwise, evidently, she failed as a mother ( devils advocate could argue, not me ). He was an artist, so he deserves his credit in that area. Men like Rembrandt, Beethovan, Van Gogh etc. were also deeply troubled and the 'ruffians' of their day and produced some of the most respected work today.

Thank you Brother African Prince ... :love: ... i could not have said it better.


No wonder Thugs are so popular in our community, and we're such an underachieving group! We need standards for what is and isn't aceptable behavior. We also don't need to glorify those who lived a detrimental lifestyle, no matter how talented they were. Tupac might have made "Brenda had a baby" and "Keep your Head Up" but his claim to fame was the "Thug Life". It was that lifestyle which caused his death, and is causing the death of the millions of young black men around the world who idolizes him. He wasn't a prophet...he wasn't a saint...he wasn't a revolutionary...he wasn't a radical...he was a thug who died like a thug! When it come to the safety and prosperity of our youth...I'm not politically correct. Tupac isn't deserving of the idolization he receives.

Brother Pan ... what he said ... plus, i'm a thug ... :peace:

:heart:

Destee

Although I understand your feelings on him being idolized and put into the same category as people like Malcolm X, he was a good but troubled person with a soft heart and I wouldn't talk about dead people.Although I'm not a disciple, I don't believe he was responsible for his death because although he promoted the Thug Life ideaology in his lyrics, he never killed anyone or hurt anyone for no reason whatsoever so I don't understand the arguement 'you live by the sword, you die by the sword' in this case, he simply talked about the sword. I also don't think he was obligated and stuck to the 'Thug Life' lifestytle like he claimed, now that I think about it, I once saw a picture of his mansion and it didn't look like he was struggling. I also agree that there are standards of maturity and behaviour men must conform to once they reach a certain age and can't excuse this. If he really honored his mother he would live a lifestyle that would make her proud, otherwise, evidently, she failed as a mother ( devils advocate could argue, not me ). He was an artist, so he deserves his credit in that area. Men like Rembrandt, Beethovan, Van Gogh etc. were also deeply troubled and the 'ruffians' of their day and produced some of the most respected work today.

We talk about dead slave masters all the time. Death doesn't excuse one from criticism! Whether or not Tupac lived the Thug Life, he certainly promoted it, and millions of black youth are following his negaive influence. Neither Rembrandt, Beethovan, nor Van Gogh promoted values that were detrimental to their society! For that matter Malcolm X was a ruffians in his youth, but what is he remembered for? If it wasn't for his autobiography, no one would even know he used to be a criminal. As far as Tupac's mansion and wealth is concerned...I'm no more impressed by that than I am a drug dealers car or crib. Material wealth is not an indication of positive living.

Brother Pan ... what he said ... plus, i'm a thug ... :peace:


And you're proud of that?

My point remains the same as Panafrica. Teenagers need role models, and being bombarded with the likes of Tupac or those influenced by him do not do them a favor. From the young brothas in Compton to the coloreds of Cape Flats, the gangsterism promoted by Tupac's image has caused the lives of many who sought to immitate him. And any one who continues to approve such image is willingly causing the life of many others.

If you want good rap music, then lets talk about Public Enemy or KRS-1.

Brother Pan ... i understand what you're saying too ... :love:

However, to take what others feel is positive, uplifting, etc., because you don't consider it as such, is wrong. I believe the challenge for all of us is to put ourselves in our Brothers / Sister's shoes. Stretch our own understanding and imagination, to embrace or at least respect, another's thoughts. Since it is primarily the youth that think the most high of Tupac, it is on the shoulders of the Elders, to bridge this gap.

Saying who they believe is an icon, isn't ... doesn't really do much to facilitate bridge building.

Rather, we must understand where they are and how they think as they do. From that point, we can begin working together to lift up the positives in each of our personal choices, and focus on moving forward together.

Simply saying someone's icon, hero, idol, what have you ... is undeserving ... is counter productive, in my opinion. It only serves to alienate those Sisters and Brothers that believe other than you.

:heart:

Destee

I must give props to this needle sharp point thank you Sister Destee:great:

My point remains the same as Panafrica. Teenagers need role models, and being bombarded with the likes of Tupac or those influenced by him do not do them a favor. From the young brothas in Compton to the coloreds of Cape Flats, the gangsterism promoted by Tupac's image has caused the lives of many who sought to immitate him. And any one who continues to approve such image is willingly causing the life of many others.

If you want good rap music, then lets talk about Public Enemy or KRS-1.

The problem is most people here and in society don't work with youth. They might have children, and know their children (perhaps a handful of their friends) but they don't know how youth internalize these messages. I work with youth on a daily basis and have done so for several years. Our young people internalize these messages. So much so that they can't imagine being doctors, lawyers, engineers, entreprueners, or any legal profession. All these young people want to be are basketball players and drug dealers. Young brothers see young sistas as ******* and young women see themselves as Ho**. They get these images directly from this music just as sure as black folk in the 60s became proud because James Brown told them to "Say it Loud". It truly saddens me that elders...people who are suppose to be guiding our youth in the right direction are turning a deaf ear because this music has a catchy beat!

nothing.

but i actually wanted to comment on something else.

this entire civilisation/culture/whichever misonomer was built, designed and enacted by thugs. thugs rule in the courtroom, in the boardroom, on the senate and house floors. thuggery exists in financial dealings, in corporate raiding, in industrial espionage ... in every facet of everything that exists today. ok, so you don't buy it; you don't practice it and you don't appreciate it. how many lear jets do you have? how much real property? how fat is your bank?

this is what kids see day in and day out - and they don't even have to look at Black people to see it!! "do what i say do and not as you see me do" still doesn't work!! them kids are not dumb; they see that this is the way this ole world "works".

go ahead; keep fighting to save these young men and women from "the thug life" and they'll be just as crippled as we are!! ... lol - yes, we are!! otherwise, why ain't we got up yet? because these kids are looking up to Tupac? yeah, you got caught!! government, business and the financial community are bigger thugs than you can dream about!! ... oh! maybe that might be why there isn't as much aspiring to these ranks as could be wished? because "thug life is bad"??

<sigh> i guess i can keep dreaming that Africa will ever pull it together! (yo!! as much as the rest of us might not wish it; that does include you "African Americans" ... we just wish you all would WAKE UP!!)

The problem is most people here and in society don't work with youth.
Unless you took a scientific poll, your generalizations are just your opinions
They might have children, and know their children (perhaps a handful of their friends) but they don't know how youth internalize these messages. I work with youth on a daily basis and have done so for several years.
ditto
Our young people internalize these messages. So much so that they can't imagine being doctors, lawyers, engineers, entreprueners, or any legal profession.
Has it possibly crossed your mind, that maybe these images are a symptom of a larger problem? hint: Its not the music, the artists or the rappers
All these young people want to be are basketball players and drug dealers. Young brothers see young sistas as ******* and young women see themselves as Ho**.
I totally disagree with this generalization of yours, when you say "all these" who specifically are you referring to?
They get these images directly from this music just as sure as black folk in the 60s became proud because James Brown told them to "Say it Loud". It truly saddens me that elders...people who are suppose to be guiding our youth in the right direction are turning a deaf ear because this music has a catchy beat!

We also had in the 60s James Brown with a funky beat "hot pants" "think" "sexy, sexy, sexy etc. these same elders that sadden you now, popped their fingers and their elders leveled the same type of criticism you are leveling now.

What Sis Destee shared in one of the threads is the solution imho, but guess where it must begin Bro?

BSB

The problem is most people here and in society don't work with youth. They might have children, and know their children (perhaps a handful of their friends) but they don't know how youth internalize these messages. I work with youth on a daily basis and have done so for several years. Our young people internalize these messages. So much so that they can't imagine being doctors, lawyers, engineers, entreprueners, or any legal profession. All these young people want to be are basketball players and drug dealers. Young brothers see young sistas as ******* and young women see themselves as Ho**. They get these images directly from this music just as sure as black folk in the 60s became proud because James Brown told them to "Say it Loud". It truly saddens me that elders...people who are suppose to be guiding our youth in the right direction are turning a deaf ear because this music has a catchy beat!

You are right Bro Pan. I have worked with alot of youths too. Thats why I hold this view. Okay, we have Tupac fans in here. We can spin all we want, but it boils down to this, if the net effect of Tupac's image was negative especially to our youths, then why promote the image? This has nothing to do with Tupac the person. Tupac the person was a regular black guy who was trying to get by in a racist society. And you have millions of tupacs all over America in the same situation. What we are talking about is Tupac the Image, in which unnecessary glorification is accorded to how he used his artform to project to everyone, the wrong way of dealing with the problems one faces in the American society. And such an image affects the attitudes of the Youths.

Unless you took a scientific poll, your generalizations are just your opinions

Has it possibly crossed your mind, that maybe these images are a symptom of a larger problem? hint: Its not the music, the artists or the rappers

I totally disagree with this generalization of yours, when you say "all these" who specifically are you referring to?

We also had in the 60s James Brown with a funky beat "hot pants" "think" "sexy, sexy, sexy etc. these same elders that sadden you now, popped their fingers and their elders leveled the same type of criticism you are leveling now.

What Sis Destee shared in one of the threads is the solution imho, but guess where it must begin Bro?

BSB

BrownSkinBrotha:

So I take it you work with youth (who aren't related to you) on a daily basis then, and everyone else here does as well? Okay well that being the case the literally thousands of young black people I've worked with over the last 7 years (across 2 states) were/are all unique? Maybe I'm wrong...maybe they don't internalize the negative images of black manhood and womanhood that they see in movies/videos and hear in music? The thug lives of Tupac, Biggie, 50 Cent, Snoop Dog, Ja Rule, Sug Knight & Death Row Records have all been positive influences in their lives! Please! I'm not generalizing anything!

I don't need a scientific poll to verify what I see on a daily basis year in and year out (those are the white man's methods). These gangster rappers might be part of a larger problem. Young black people are faced with poor educational systems, and little job prospects after they finish school. Many are being raised without fathers, and with neglegient mothers. However I know for a fact that there are also many black youth who do not take advantage of the resources that do exist in their community. They don't take advantage of them, because they are too busy trying to "Get Rich or Die Trying". I personally have gone to hundreds of young black peoples homes over the last several years trying to get our youth to take advantage of resources available to them. Many times I've been successful in my efforts (times I'm quite proud of)...other times I've had to all but drag young people out their house so they could take advantage of programs established for their benefit (paid programs designed to give them job training).

These thug rappers may not be the root causes of the problems in our community, but they don't help to elevate the minds of our young people. Just the opposite they keep the mind of our youth stagnant, while showing the worst side of black people to the entire world! I think those who are truly concerned about improving conditions in our community, would know the importance of replacing negative images with positive ones. Small steps can make large impacts! As I said before too many of our youth can't invision being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, scientist, or business owner, because all they see are the Thug and the Baller. Gangsta rap plays a significant role in this mindset! Who we look up to is a reflection of ourselves. I challenge you to prove differently.

P.S. As far as Destee's solution, what exactly did that happen to be? She is a thug too...said so herself! If you can't beat em, join em has never been part of my mindset!

Well.

I don't consider Tupac to be an idol this is misleading and not what I said. And I certainly didn't put him in the same breath as Malcolm but does that make his life contribution less? Does that make the jealousy and self hatred that took his life any less?

Many of us call ourselves rebels yet we buck at the needs to loving unconditionally all brothers who partake in the the struggle and we suckerly embrace common trends.

Tupac gave a speech and explained what he meant by Thuglife he meant the same thing that Chuck D of Public Enemy implied when he said he was Public Enemy Number One.

All of us blacks are ******, thugs, criminals and public enemy number one to these crackers!

Blacks have the highest incarcenration and most of it is for non violent crimes.

Tupac made his message work by selling his soul to the devil he mixed street idolization with the purity of Pro-Blackness just to gain popularity.

He paid for that with his life! What more payment can we bestow upon him than being gunned down like a Bonnie Clyde scene?

He was nevertheless a soldier in the struggle who choose the wrong methods to fight against his enemy and was snared by darkness that took over him.

But let's not forget the Conterintelpro who's main objective is to kill all of us radical blacks who will not submit. We are pursed and hunted down like dogs and mostly killed by our own ranther than the white man! This is an undisputed fact!

Biggie was nothing and just another common brother with Talent he was Jamaican in New York and was using Tupac's style that is what made him so great! Many Jamaican blacks who are in large numbers in New York called Biggie the greatest rapper ever! Although Biggie advocated and lived like a criminal he helped in the plot to kill his best friend! How could I ever trust such a man? Such a brother? I have nothing against being Jamaican or West Indie and I don't have any as friends because I don't know any. I've been around them and seen that a few of them are rebels for the cause like us and most of them are here in America only for money and success!

Alot of Jamaican youth are in this thing called the Posse which are very highly organized street gangs from Kingston. They are politically connected with certain parties in Jamaica and they sell and distrubute drugs and guns into black communties in America. Most of them are in New York, Baltimore, Washington D.C, Miami, Richmond and Atlanta now.

Biggie eludes to them in some of his raps but I won't post none of it here unless someone wants to see it. Lil Kim speaks to them in her new song "Put Ya Lighters Up".

To me gangs are nothing more than herd mentality that has replaced centralized government. They represent some of the scum of us most of the time. Their power is predicated upon the strong ruling over the weak in opposition to a spiritual government of democray and equal respenstation of all consensus grougs. Such gangs rose up in West Africa during the slave trade and they raped, enslaved, plundered and killed alot of innocent people. The only way to get rid of them is through Elite Secret Societies. We will have to appeal to them or exterminate them one day by killing the leaders. I suggest the latter but if it doesn't work then we need to try the other solution. This has to be done eventually or they're way of life will become to popular and kill us all.

We need to think about the present and how our people are dying. The Elite among us the true talented need to form societies such as this site where we train, prepare and implement take action strategies. Nothing happens overnite that is good. So we need plans with long term objective ones that can be put to work in the society without raising radars. For those who stay busy are messing with the Devil's hands.

Haha... Akilles does not "love me some Jamaicans"...hehe.
I dont know if its me but you sound paranoid, just a little bit especially towards Jamaicans. Its good you come out and discuss your concerns. It fosters greater unity.

NO!

I consider Jamaicans the same as us and equal. I am a firm beliver in Hallie Sallisse's vision of a United Africa.

Dont you be paranoid of me.

There are corrupt elements in African Americans, West Indies and Africans.

I am meet rebels on all sides and traitors on all sides.

So please don't confuse me with a hater I will give my life for to save any one of us who is worthy.

Let's not foster hate through misunderstanding.

Fear leads to hate.

Okay. I misinterpreted you.
So how do you suggest we solve the rife within the black communities. Because it seems to be elements in all segment of the black community be they Carribeans, African Americans, Africans or Black Britons seem harbor to hate towards other blacks. And that hate needs to be overcomed in order for us to move foward and work together to build a Global Black Economic Empire.

Okay. I misinterpreted you.
So how do you suggest we solve the rife within the black communities. Because it seems to be elements in all segment of the black community be they Carribeans, African Americans, Africans or Black Britons seem harbor to hate towards other blacks. And that hate needs to be overcomed in order for us to move foward and work together to build a Global Black Economic Empire.

Move on this my next thread "African Societies and Elite Groups" I am laying out solutions to how to build a Global Afrian Economic Empire!

This thread is dead as far as I'm concerned. Unless someone has something more enlightening to add.

All postive feedbacks are welcome!

Just for the sake of this discussion, I would like to know what 'young people' you are referring to?

Brother Pan indicated that he has been in the homes, encouraging children to get out and take advantage of the resources available to them. I had the pleasure of seeing a 'thug broths' last week walk across the stage, being recognized with a $7,000 scholarship! Yes I said $7,000 scholarship! As black men, we need to honestly show them how happy we are for things like that. Not only am I a 'young black man,' but I also get up early in the morning EVERY MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY, and go into one of the worst urban inner-city schools that there are in the city. I don't get time to talk about how bad our youth are, because I spend so muc time trying to get them to adapt to succeeding in life! I am spending time trying to get them to KNOW THYSELF. Oh yeah, best of all, I have not asked for ONE DIME to work with youth - meaning that I don't care if it is 3 a.m. in the morning, if they need prayer, a favor, whatever, I do what I can for them. That goes on to show you what kind of 'young black man' I am. I broke Willie Lynch's shackles a long time ago.

Going back to Brother Pan, do you realize what he said and what he is trying to say he does? That is what we need. We need more people to go into the homes, schools, libraries, community centers, etc. If Bill Cosby was doing what Brother Pan was doing, you would not have witnessed Dr. Cosby getting up on the stage and raising his voice about black people. Instead of going fulfilling the vision of Willie Lynhc, sit down with us and speak with us! I am strongly thinking about referring them to this Forum Family! (Destee, Moderators is that a problem with you?) I met two people who I correspond with on a daily basis through this Family! I am really thinking about putting it in their list of FAVORITES on the web.

I want them to stay in school and learn just like I am doing. If not school, at least read something?? Read The Miseducation of the Negro, books to Dr. Naim Akbar, something productive. Instead of watching BET and MTV, watch Henry Louis Gates documentaries, Martin Luther King presentations, Farrakhan speeches, etc. THIS IS WHAT THEY NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO!

Reach out to youth, sow that seed! You will grow a harvest of shacke-free young black children who love you and look up to you whole-heartedly. I have only been working with the newest set of students that I have for about 3 weeks, and understand that because of who I am and what I do, they always look forward to seeing me!

Win a soul, a YOUNG soul today! After all, we are the future!

CD

Just for the sake of this discussion, I would like to know what 'young people' you are referring to?

Brother Pan indicated that he has been in the homes, encouraging children to get out and take advantage of the resources available to them. I had the pleasure of seeing a 'thug broths' last week walk across the stage, being recognized with a $7,000 scholarship! Yes I said $7,000 scholarship! As black men, we need to honestly show them how happy we are for things like that. Not only am I a 'young black man,' but I also get up early in the morning EVERY MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY, and go into one of the worst urban inner-city schools that there are in the city. I don't get time to talk about how bad our youth are, because I spend so muc time trying to get them to adapt to succeeding in life! I am spending time trying to get them to KNOW THYSELF. Oh yeah, best of all, I have not asked for ONE DIME to work with youth - meaning that I don't care if it is 3 a.m. in the morning, if they need prayer, a favor, whatever, I do what I can for them. That goes on to show you what kind of 'young black man' I am. I broke Willie Lynch's shackles a long time ago.

Going back to Brother Pan, do you realize what he said and what he is trying to say he does? That is what we need. We need more people to go into the homes, schools, libraries, community centers, etc. If Bill Cosby was doing what Brother Pan was doing, you would not have witnessed Dr. Cosby getting up on the stage and raising his voice about black people. Instead of going fulfilling the vision of Willie Lynhc, sit down with us and speak with us! I am strongly thinking about referring them to this Forum Family! (Destee, Moderators is that a problem with you?) I met two people who I correspond with on a daily basis through this Family! I am really thinking about putting it in their list of FAVORITES on the web.

I want them to stay in school and learn just like I am doing. If not school, at least read something?? Read The Miseducation of the Negro, books to Dr. Naim Akbar, something productive. Instead of watching BET and MTV, watch Henry Louis Gates documentaries, Martin Luther King presentations, Farrakhan speeches, etc. THIS IS WHAT THEY NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO!

Reach out to youth, sow that seed! You will grow a harvest of shacke-free young black children who love you and look up to you whole-heartedly. I have only been working with the newest set of students that I have for about 3 weeks, and understand that because of who I am and what I do, they always look forward to seeing me!

Win a soul, a YOUNG soul today! After all, we are the future!

CD

You are an incredible young man....

You are an incredible young man....

Yes he is!

Don't think for one second that I am traveling on an easy road to where I am going. I am ready to be perecuted for doing what is right. I am ready to step up to the plate, and let our youth know that you do not have to be in your 20s, 30s, or 40s to look out for our youth.

Destee Family, be a Blessing to me and others, and I will surely Bless you in return!

CD

To address, Akilles' initial post, Brother (or Sister), it is hard to differentiate AA from Afrakans from the Diaspora, simply because in most cases we cannot go that far back (400 years) before an Afrakan from the diaspora pops into our heritage. For example, my dad, was born in 1911 in New Orleans, his father's father was from Senegal, who came through Haiti. His mother was probably your description of an AA.

My mother was born in amerikkka, but her mother was born in Antiqua and her father was born in Cape Verde.

Now, most so-called AA have simular heritage backgrounds, so unless you are talking abour Diasporans who just got off of the airplaine (vs boat), most AA's are not pure AA's whatever that means.

Anyway, back to Tupac. To me Tupac, can in fact be a role model and be used as a role model by taking the good from him, his positive songs, his poetry. Brother Pan, if you work with youth, than surely you can use all of the positive things Tupac did, and there were plenty and turn his life into positive vs a negative.

Like many youth, they straddle the fence, sometimes good sometimes not. We cannot generalize. If we did, the Bob Marley, whose songs were incredibly motivating, revolutionary, was also a womanizer, an adulterer, a drug user, etc. Does that make him not a role mode. Same thing goes for MLK, Elijah, Marcus and God knows who else.

We have great leaders among, young and old who have fallen. It up to us to find their positive side, and use that to uplift our people.

So this time my Brother Pan, I disagree with you on Tupac. He did not cause our young men to die, media literacy causes our young people to die, and we have to counter it with the truth. Had he been able to live, he quite possibly could have been our next Malcolm, our next Farrakhan, our next Marcus. I do not justify the bad things he did, put I am putting them into perspective.

Now that he is dead, take the good, don't demonize the brother. It does the youth you are teaching and our people as a whole no good.

You know, how the white maaaaan tells us the George Washington never told a lie. Well tell your youth the Tupac had issues but all and all he was a good brother and use his songs and his poetry to prove it.

Peace to you Pan, and much love for your work in the community.

Like Pan and a few other brothas here, I also work with the youth, 5 days a week. I think the point about our young black males emulating self-proclaimed thugs Like Tupac can not be over emphasized.

While it is true that Bob Marley was a womanizer, the difference between Tupac and Bob Marley is that the latter never glorified his infidelity and didn't justify his behaviour on vinyl.

Our young men are emulating Rappers in dress, and mentality. This is a far cry from copying a "thug" running a company like Sony or any other major media conglomerate. Moreover, not only are our young black men emulating gangster rap, they're also glorifying the use of guns and prison life. This is an epidimec and we're making excuses for our children wanting to be would be criminals.

While it is true that Bob Marley was a womanizer, the difference between Tupac and Bob Marley is that the latter never glorified his infidelity and didn't justify his behaviour on vinyl.

Not only that, but Bob Marley didn't seem to contradict himself as much as Tupac did. Tupac sings "Keep your head up" then is busted for group sodomy or rape, one of the two. Then he made songs after that demeaning black women. People call him a revolutionary and a role-model or icon, but he's done and said far more negative than he did positive. His last name should not give him a pass. Bob Marley took care of more people financially than Tupac probably knew. Tupac is a great example of a brotha that sold out when money was waved in his face, and it's sickening that people dare put him in the same category as a Bob Marley or Malcolm X. No one is perfect, but Bob Marley's short-comings are far more bearable than Tupac's if you look at the overall good that they brought to the world. Tupac was a negative rapper that said a few positive things during his bouts with guilt.

Brothers, Tupac was in his in 20's. What were you like in your 20's? Bob Marly was older. Did you read Tupac's poetry, did you listen to his words when he sang positive songs?

To dwell on his negative, does us no good. Malcolm was robbing and stealing in his 20's.

All I am saying is people need to be given time to live and learn, Tupac wasn't given that chance. His life was snuffed out before he could make a transition, before he could hear the voice of his mother.

I have 20 year men around me all the time, my son is 26. Half the time he makes no sense, and I know he knows better. I pray God and the Ancestors look after him to grow and mature and hear my Black power voice in his head. Until then I pray.

Last point. No matter how many of us feel about Tupac. OUr youth love him, Afrakans love him, people all over the world love him, and it is up to us, to hold up what he did positive in their eyes. One can speak negative about him all day, that is not going to stop our youth from loving him.

Eric Dyson, quotes him all the time in his speeches, because quite frankly, the brother was brilliant, and he was killed because he was going to be somebody.

Like Pan and a few other brothas here, I also work with the youth, 5 days a week. I think the point about our young black males emulating self-proclaimed thugs Like Tupac can not be over emphasized.

While it is true that Bob Marley was a womanizer, the difference between Tupac and Bob Marley is that the latter never glorified his infidelity and didn't justify his behaviour on vinyl.

Our young men are emulating Rappers in dress, and mentality. This is a far cry from copying a "thug" running a company like Sony or any other major media conglomerate. Moreover, not only are our young black men emulating gangster rap, they're also glorifying the use of guns and prison life. This is an epidimec and we're making excuses for our children wanting to be would be criminals.

Thank you for telling the reality of what is happening to our young people brother Sekhemu. As you stated too many of us are making excuses for our children emulating children. They make excuses because they don't deal with them on the level that you, I, and others in the education & social services fields do. We are well past a crisis, and if radical change is not undertaken soon, it might be too late to turn things around.

Not only that, but Bob Marley didn't seem to contradict himself as much as Tupac did. Tupac sings "Keep your head up" then is busted for group sodomy or rape, one of the two. Then he made songs after that demeaning black women. People call him a revolutionary and a role-model or icon, but he's done and said far more negative than he did positive. His last name should not give him a pass. Bob Marley took care of more people financially than Tupac probably knew. Tupac is a great example of a brotha that sold out when money was waved in his face, and it's sickening that people dare put him in the same category as a Bob Marley or Malcolm X. No one is perfect, but Bob Marley's short-comings are far more bearable than Tupac's if you look at the overall good that they brought to the world. Tupac was a negative rapper that said a few positive things during his bouts with guilt.

Ditto.........

Brothers, Tupac was in his in 20's. What were you like in your 20's? Bob Marly was older. Did you read Tupac's poetry, did you listen to his words when he sang positive songs?

To dwell on his negative, does us no good. Malcolm was robbing and stealing in his 20's.

All I am saying is people need to be given time to live and learn, Tupac wasn't given that chance. His life was snuffed out before he could make a transition, before he could hear the voice of his mother.

What was I like in my 20s? I was pretty much the same man I am today. Yes I've heard Tupac's positive songs, and read his lyrics. Truth be told, I enjoyed what little positive songs he made. However as brother Kente417Mojo said, he made far more negative songs than positive ones. Furthermore he lived a negative life. Pdiane my question to you is: Have you heard his negative songs & his negative lyrics? I got news for you. I hear young black males recite Tupac Lyrics all day, and they aren't singing "Dear Momma"! As far as him being snuffed out before he could hear the voice of his mother....didn't she raise him? He should have been hearing her voice his entire life. I'm sorry Pdiane, but you're right, this is one of the rare times we disagree. A person may not have learned all the lessons of life in their 20s, but they are definately old enough to know right from wrong.

I have 20 year men around me all the time, my son is 26. Half the time he makes no sense, and I know he knows better. I pray God and the Ancestors look after him to grow and mature and hear my Black power voice in his head. Until then I pray.

Last point. No matter how many of us feel about Tupac. OUr youth love him, Afrakans love him, people all over the world love him, and it is up to us, to hold up what he did positive in their eyes. One can speak negative about him all day, that is not going to stop our youth from loving him.

Eric Dyson, quotes him all the time in his speeches, because quite frankly, the brother was brilliant, and he was killed because he was going to be somebody.

Well, I'm still in my 20's (28 yrs old) and I know that Tupac isn't the person I would want any black male immulating. The fact that many black males look up to Tupac is a classic indicator of the trouble we are in, and why we as black people can not move forward. Tupac didn't move forward. In fact, the brotha moved backwards. When he first came out, he was a lot more positive and revolutionary. He lost that when he sold out. His last years were a mess. We need to stop settling for just any ol' leader. That's why we have Messy Jackson, Al Sharptongue, Michael Eric Dyson (who refers to himself as a yellow ******* in front of the world), T.D. Jakes, Eddie Long and all the other degenerate black male examples. Come on people. Common is still alive and well, and he doesn't get half the amount of love as a dead Tupac. Talib Kweli is alive and get's no love. But Tupac, someone that cut his own life short by his so-called "thug-life" get's honored as a revolutionary, icon, role-model, positive brotha. I'm not trying to cut Tupac down, because after all, I never heard him claim to be anything other than he was. My beef is with people that want to elevate him higher than he deserves to be. Especially when it's way above people who have, are and will put in more work than he ever did.

Brothers, Tupac was in his in 20's. What were you like in your 20's? Bob Marly was older. Did you read Tupac's poetry, did you listen to his words when he sang positive songs?

To dwell on his negative, does us no good. Malcolm was robbing and stealing in his 20's.

All I am saying is people need to be given time to live and learn, Tupac wasn't given that chance. His life was snuffed out before he could make a transition, before he could hear the voice of his mother.

I have 20 year men around me all the time, my son is 26. Half the time he makes no sense, and I know he knows better. I pray God and the Ancestors look after him to grow and mature and hear my Black power voice in his head. Until then I pray.

Last point. No matter how many of us feel about Tupac. OUr youth love him, Afrakans love him, people all over the world love him, and it is up to us, to hold up what he did positive in their eyes. One can speak negative about him all day, that is not going to stop our youth from loving him.

Eric Dyson, quotes him all the time in his speeches, because quite frankly, the brother was brilliant, and he was killed because he was going to be somebody.

One thing you're forgetting and that is Tupac had the advantage of being exposed, up close and personal to black revolutionaries, including his mother, Malcom DID NOT, so it's a bit of mistake to compare their circumstances.

Yes he had talent, but what good is talent without a sense of responsiblity? For all the talent he possessed he seemed more pre-occupied with flashing money and jewelry.

We have to take a closer look at why so many of our youth enamored by Tupacs narcissisism. The youth you talk about that love him are probably not trying become great poets for the sake of art, they're probably hoping to get a record deal so they can get paid. Tupac signed with Deathrow for this very same reason, not because he wanted to raise the concious of our people.

If you want to talk about revolutionary poets, then let's talk about the Last Poets, it's too bad rappers aren't trying follow their lead these days ay?

Why is it speaking negative about an artist by pointing out they were bragged about money and debauchery? If anything it would serve as an example that there is more to life than money and greed.

To be frank with you, Tupac dug his own grave by the company he kept and snitching on rival rapper's(former drug dealer) wife on a record. That's probably what got him killed.

One thing I think we need to remember is that there were two Tupacs, the Tupac before Deathrow records was more introspective and self-less. The one who signed with Death Row was more wreckless and self-absorbed.

He had the potential to do great things, but it seems the allure of gold and glitter got the best of him.

Well, I'm still in my 20's (28 yrs old) and I know that Tupac isn't the person I would want any black male immulating. The fact that many black males look up to Tupac is a classic indicator of the trouble we are in, and why we as black people can not move forward. Tupac didn't move forward. In fact, the brotha moved backwards. When he first came out, he was a lot more positive and revolutionary. He lost that when he sold out. His last years were a mess. We need to stop settling for just any ol' leader. That's why we have Messy Jackson, Al Sharptongue, Michael Eric Dyson (who refers to himself as a yellow ******* in front of the world), T.D. Jakes, Eddie Long and all the other degenerate black male examples. Come on people. Common is still alive and well, and he doesn't get half the amount of love as a dead Tupac. Talib Kweli is alive and get's no love. But Tupac, someone that cut his own life short by his so-called "thug-life" get's honored as a revolutionary, icon, role-model, positive brotha. I'm not trying to cut Tupac down, because after all, I never heard him claim to be anything other than he was. My beef is with people that want to elevate him higher than he deserves to be. Especially when it's way above people who have, are and will put in more work than he ever did.


I agree, how come Artist like Common and others aren't getting the publicity they deserve? I'll tell you why, because they haven't sold their souls to record companies/pimps that's why.

T.D. Jakes, Eddie Long and all the other degenerate black male examples.

Now you are bringing in the preachers. The problem is as powerful as Bishop Long is, he only gets 30 minutes on BET a week! Instead of buying Rap and Hip-Hop music, we need to take a look at these products, for example:

https://ww2.micahtek.com/nexolive/nShop_Detail.cfm?CFID=760688&CFTOKEN=31339239

Also, for those who don't believe in the Bible, it might be kind of hard to look up to these bishops. They don't see the Bible as a book of contradictions.

CD

Now you are bringing in the preachers. The problem is as powerful as Bishop Long is, he only gets 30 minutes on BET a week! Instead of buying Rap and Hip-Hop music, we need to take a look at these products, for example:

https://ww2.micahtek.com/nexolive/nShop_Detail.cfm?CFID=760688&CFTOKEN=31339239

Also, for those who don't believe in the Bible, it might be kind of hard to look up to these bishops. They don't see the Bible as a book of contradictions.

CD

He may only get 30 minutes on BET, but how many people are in his congregation? How much money does his church take in a week? How many people does he have sitting on their hands because they're too busy staring into the sky? Either way, my point is black people CHOOSE the dumbest people to follow time and time again, while the ones who actually have something to say get ignored. How many youths know all of Tupac's songs by heart, yet have never heard a speech by MLK, Malcolm X or Kalid Muhhammed? Better yet, I'd be surprised if most black youths could tell you anything substantial pertaining to 2 out of those 3 men. Maybe MLK (from what they've heard in school) but Malcolm or Kalid, they'd be like "who", "what did he do"???? "Has he ever been on BET"?

He may only get 30 minutes on BET, but how many people are in his congregation? How much money does his church take in a week? How many people does he have sitting on their hands because they're too busy staring into the sky? Either way, my point is black people CHOOSE the dumbest people to follow time and time again, while the ones who actually have something to say get ignored. How many youths know all of Tupac's songs by heart, yet have never heard a speech by MLK, Malcolm X or Kalid Muhhammed? Better yet, I'd be surprised if most black youths could tell you anything substantial pertaining to 2 out of those 3 men. Maybe MLK (from what they've heard in school) but Malcolm or Kalid, they'd be like "who", "what did he do"???? "Has he ever been on BET"?
...........But don't you think that is up to us to make that happen? All 36+ million of us have the power and the ability to boycott BET, MTV, and VH1. We have the power and the ability to get rap music taken off of the radios, yet we do nothing to end it. That is also not to mention Brother Kente, that WE HAVE THE POWER TO BECOME ROLE-MODELS THAT OUR CHILDREN LOOK UP TO! Why do we even need to find a human figure that is good to look up to? If we want to find someone who set a good example without having a bad reutation, Why can't we be that person?
We have the power of take over the schools, banks, businesses, etc, except we keep it in mind and believe that it is not possible as long as we live. I would guarantee you that the same ancestors who died for civil rights, would be the same ancestors who would die to put an end to rap music and exploitation. How do you think Rosa Parks took OutKast making a song disrespcting her? That is probably how Malcolm X, Dr. King, and Marcus Garvey would react if they found out they were being ignored in schools. Mary McCleod Bethune would be pissed of she found out how denied she was in the public school system. WE HAVE THE POWER TO BREAK THEM IN IT! Except most of us already decided that breaking in a Black Educational System is pointless, and not worth anything.

We hae the power to change, but DO WE WANT TO CHANGE? Most of us already said no, so those uf us who said yes, we must come together in some way, shape, or form, and get down to business.

CD

...........But don't you think that is up to us to make that happen? All 36+ million of us have the power and the ability to boycott BET, MTV, and VH1. We have the power and the ability to get rap music taken off of the radios, yet we do nothing to end it. That is also not to mention Brother Kente, that WE HAVE THE POWER TO BECOME ROLE-MODELS THAT OUR CHILDREN LOOK UP TO! Why do we even need to find a human figure that is good to look up to? If we want to find someone who set a good example without having a bad reutation, Why can't we be that person?
We have the power of take over the schools, banks, businesses, etc, except we keep it in mind and believe that it is not possible as long as we live. I would guarantee you that the same ancestors who died for civil rights, would be the same ancestors who would die to put an end to rap music and exploitation. How do you think Rosa Parks took OutKast making a song disrespcting her? That is probably how Malcolm X, Dr. King, and Marcus Garvey would react if they found out they were being ignored in schools. Mary McCleod Bethune would be pissed of she found out how denied she was in the public school system. WE HAVE THE POWER TO BREAK THEM IN IT! Except most of us already decided that breaking in a Black Educational System is pointless, and not worth anything.

We hae the power to change, but DO WE WANT TO CHANGE? Most of us already said no, so those uf us who said yes, we must come together in some way, shape, or form, and get down to business.

CD

Excellent points.

The only thing I would like to address is the whole issue of black ministers like T.D. Jake et al, who typically have a half hour to one hour of air time. With all the large black churches, I'm puzzled as to why they can't form a consortium and buy a network.

Just a thought.

...........But don't you think that is up to us to make that happen? All 36+ million of us have the power and the ability to boycott BET, MTV, and VH1. We have the power and the ability to get rap music taken off of the radios, yet we do nothing to end it. That is also not to mention Brother Kente, that WE HAVE THE POWER TO BECOME ROLE-MODELS THAT OUR CHILDREN LOOK UP TO!

I agree. We do have the power. We have the power to change whatever we feel is a problem. The thing holding us back is the fact that most of the 36 million know there is a problem, but really don't care enough to change it. Either way, I don't want to make this into another topic to where people accuse me of badmouthing black folks. My point is just that we black people need to really think about who we idolize. I'm not big on idolizing anyone, because I myself don't. I do however respect certain men and women for their visions and actions. We can do without leaders, idols, icons, prophets etc, if we just start thinking better of ourselves. But for those that do need someone to lead them in the right directions, at least have the brainpower to pick someone that's worthy, not a rapper that disrespects black women, glorifies drugs and alcohol, promotes materialism and contradicts himself everytime he takes a breathe. Nice talking with you.

I agree, how come Artist like Common and others aren't getting the publicity they deserve? I'll tell you why, because they haven't sold their souls to record companies/pimps that's why.
My point exactly, media literacy kills our children, not Tupac.

I cannot emphasize this enough to you young brothers, when you post you are coming from an individual standpoint. How Tupac affected your life, why you are angry for what he did. I appreciate that, but we are dealing with the world view here.

True, he made bad choices, true, he said bad things, true, he was not as great, as Black, as we would have liked him to be. But personally, I believe we are taking it too far to blame him for the death of our children. His mother was on crack, his father abandoned him. He had issues. Who doesn't,

I love Commom, I love Talib, I love Mos Def, and Kanye but their pictures ain't in Afraka on billboards, their pictures ain't in France or England, nor are they in the Carribbean. Tupac's is.

Hello!

So we can go on a rant about all the bad he did, what is that going to do? We are preaching to the choir, we know the bad things he did, but what are we going to focus on, what are we going to tell these young people who look up to him, who revere him?

Are we going to tell him about his poetry:
http://www.alleyezonme.com/poetry/index.phtml

Pan, are you telling me you would not let your students read this? !!! The brother was brilliant.

Tupac was not just a thug.

The bottomline is that Tupac had two sides, a good and bad. Our children need to know about both, but the emphasis needs to be put on the good.

By the way, I believe the U.S. government killed him, like they did Biggie, Malcolm, Bob Marley and MLK. I do not believe his thug life killed him, he targeted for a reason beyond his thug life. Believe me, Kanye is now on their hit list, as is Wyclef and so many other rappers. Coentel-pro is alive and well. AS A MATTER OF FACT RAP IS ON AMERIKKKA'S HIT LIST. BUT THAT'S ANOTHER THREAD.

JAMA AND LOVE TO YOU ALL. This is good a good discussion.

My point exactly, media literacy kills our children, not Tupac.

I cannot emphasize this enough to you young brothers, when you post you are coming from an individual standpoint. How Tupac affected your life, why you are angry for what he did. I appreciate that, but we are dealing with the world view here.

True, he made bad choices, true, he said bad things, true, he was not as great, as Black, as we would have liked him to be. But personally, I believe we are taking it too far to blame him for the death of our children. His mother was on crack, his father abandoned him. He had issues. Who doesn't,

I love Commom, I love Talib, I love Mos Def, and Kanye but their pictures ain't in Afraka on billboards, their pictures ain't in France or England, nor are they in the Carribbean. Tupac's is.

Hello!

So we can go on a rant about all the bad he did, what is that going to do? We are preaching to the choir, we know the bad things he did, but what are we going to focus on, what are we going to tell these young people who look up to him, who revere him?

Are we going to tell him about his poetry:
http://www.alleyezonme.com/poetry/index.phtml

Pan, are you telling me you would not let your students read this? !!! The brother was brilliant.

Tupac was not just a thug.

The bottomline is that Tupac had two sides, a good and bad. Our children need to know about both, but the emphasis needs to be put on the good.

By the way, I believe the U.S. government killed him, like they did Biggie, Malcolm, Bob Marley and MLK. I do not believe his thug life killed him, he targeted for a reason beyond his thug life. Believe me, Kanye is now on their hit list, as is Wyclef and so many other rappers. Coentel-pro is alive and well. AS A MATTER OF FACT RAP IS ON AMERIKKKA'S HIT LIST. BUT THAT'S ANOTHER THREAD.

JAMA AND LOVE TO YOU ALL. This is good a good discussion.

Tupac may have not killed our children, but he set a terrible precedent by extolling the "virtues" of thug life.

Sistah I'm probably closer in age to you than you might think, I'm in my 40's, and to think Tupac had some effect on my life is a little far-fetched lol. I wouldn't characterize our displeasure as anger, disappointment is more fitting.

As you know, perception often becomes reality, and the reality is, is that far too many people from, Asia, Europe, Latin America and Africa are looking at the american black male as a thug and a bafoon. So whether we call in individual standpoint is almost irrelevant, the fallout is the same.

Yes we all make bad choices, but the old saying is that to much that is given, much is expected.

With respect to Tupac's pictures being seen around the world, I would think that has more to do with exploiting his image as something of a pseudo martyr and clever marketing than anything else. One thing you forgot to mention is that, with exception of Tupac, all the rappers you mentioned are ALIVE lol.

What would I tell children who revere him, particuliarly black male youth, to ask them what do the people you revere represent. Do they think that Malcom or Martin would be pleased with who they revere? When they think of Tupac or Biggie, do they think either one of them would come to their school to encourage them to keep up their grades or stress the importance of a good education.

Tupac is not to be spoken in the same breath as Biggie who was nothing but a common rapper.

Tupac was an activist.

One of the things he said was he never had a record until he made a record.

The Counterintellprogram three objectives are to discredit, imprison and kill.


Tupac helped in the process by acting arrogant over his fame. And then not seeking healing for being betrayed by Biggie and Puffy and shot five times.

Also the sister betrayed him who lied and said Tupac helped others to rape her!

Tupac was angry and you can hear alot of that on his later albums "Fack the World" "All Eyes On Me" and "Makevelli".

This why forgiveness is so important not for you enemies but for you!

The Govt discredited Tupac with false charges and arrests. Then they imprisoned him.

With his credibility gone he was open for death the only thing to do was set it up.

If killed then his death could be easily blamed on his shattered reputation.

So some say you live by the gun you die by the gun.

They said the same thing when Malcom X got killed.

And you who call yourselves Pro Black are targets but most of you will never risk anything the way that Tupac Shakur and his mother Afeni Shakur did so you never see the real teeth of the devil.

It is easy to criticize Tupac when you're an arm chair revolutionary!

Counterintellpro is alive and well and is still used to kill us off one by one at the least make us look crazy or criminal to our people so they won't follow us.

I like Biggie and Tupac but neither one of them were revolutionaries or activists.

If we compare either one of these two the likes of a Marcus Garvey, I will take it that some one is speaking Martian or one of their languages.

Malcolm X = Biggie Smalls, Marcus Garvey = Tupac Shakur. Whoa, now this is getting crazy.

The meaning of African American changes because of things like this. Even when we are speaking the same language on a particular subject, it seems that somebody is speaking a different dialect or using semantics just to cause a rift.

Example:

A friend and I agree that there is a probem, even how to work towards the resolution of it, and the force/finesse that should be applied while working this issue. We disagree on one little thing or big depending on how you look at it. He says the working towards the ending of this obstruction should begin on the day that succeeded the last, meanwhile, I'm talking about the starting of this project on the day that precedes the next because I say it would better suited for me to do so. This is the true problem because oftentimes it is never the agreed upon one. Each of these individuals want it done their way or no other, the irony of it all.

We should look within about what it means to be us before without, obviously it is there that it begins.

Was the example really about semantics? Even if it were, we would still be doing better than what we have been doing. We can agree to disagree, but not to agree that we agree?

Want to know what the irony is(lol)? We can't recognize our similarities, even in our likenesses.

If we can get out of being inter-planetary language speakers(lol) when we converse amongst ourselves we might see some progress. Because like I said, somebody is speaking Martian(hehe).

This same ongoing cycle is what continues to change what it means to be African American in comtempoary times.

What it means to be African American has 34-37 million point of views. Most likely more alike than different.

I'm not speaking on any particular person here, but it seems I see that everywhere when people always talk about what it means to be "black" or African American. They either totally disagree and recognize this fact, or agree, but doing so with there own style, and not recognizing the next individuals beliefs are very much like theirs. Thereby causing more confusing.

Thank you so much Akilles for clarifying Tupac's story. I mentioned Biggie because they were both murdered by the government.


Deep voice, let us be really really clear, Malcolm would have shot your and my head off, if we were in his enemy circle, before he was imprisoned and taught by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad how to love himself. He was a thug, he was a theif, he was self-destructive, but Allah blessed him to live to change, live to be a great great man. Tupac was not given that chance.

Malcolm had absolutely no love us, or more importantly himself before than. He too was a young man who was born in a home, victimized by amerikkkan racism. I should not have to suggest you read his autobiography.

Sekemu, having travelled and interfaced with young people, Tupac's picture is not a political ploy by the powers that be. The young people love him and respect him. The grassroots revere him, and no, these particularly young men are emulating his thug life. They are spitting the politcal truth about what is happening in their countries, using his truth, his articulation of real life as an example.

There is not gang violence in Senegal, France, Morocco, like there is in amerikkka. So we can't pin that on Tupac.

All I am saying, and I will let this rest. Unless you know that whole story, don't fall victim to media literacy. Use your critical thinking skills before demonizing a Black person who is dead, who was systematically murdered, and can't defend themselves. Akilles, made a poignant point:


"And you who call yourselves Pro Black are targets but most of you will never risk anything the way that Tupac Shakur and his mother Afeni Shakur did so you never see the real teeth of the devil.

It is easy to criticize Tupac when you're an arm chair revolutionary!

Counterintellpro is alive and well and is still used to kill us off one by one at the least make us look crazy or criminal to our people so they won't follow us"
Ase! on that Akilles.

Lastly, Brother Sekemu, Tupac is Alive! Our ancestors believe that if you say the name, that person lives forever. We are mere vessels walking this earth carrying the blood our ancestors.

Peace and Love.

Tupac is not to be spoken in the same breath as Biggie who was nothing but a common rapper.

Tupac was an activist.

One of the things he said was he never had a record until he made a record.

The Counterintellprogram three objectives are to discredit, imprison and kill.


Tupac helped in the process by acting arrogant over his fame. And then not seeking healing for being betrayed by Biggie and Puffy and shot five times.

Also the sister betrayed him who lied and said Tupac helped others to rape her!

Tupac was angry and you can hear alot of that on his later albums "Fack the World" "All Eyes On Me" and "Makevelli".

This why forgiveness is so important not for you enemies but for you!

The Govt discredited Tupac with false charges and arrests. Then they imprisoned him.

With his credibility gone he was open for death the only thing to do was set it up.

If killed then his death could be easily blamed on his shattered reputation.

So some say you live by the gun you die by the gun.

They said the same thing when Malcom X got killed.

And you who call yourselves Pro Black are targets but most of you will never risk anything the way that Tupac Shakur and his mother Afeni Shakur did so you never see the real teeth of the devil.

It is easy to criticize Tupac when you're an arm chair revolutionary!

Counterintellpro is alive and well and is still used to kill us off one by one at the least make us look crazy or criminal to our people so they won't follow us.


Tupac was an activist! Really? He and Suge knight, dying for the cause of black people huh?

This is pure historical revisionism. I was born in the 60's and the panthers had a chapter right around the corner from my house, and I saw and learned what it is to be a revolutionary and activist. Tupac was a rapper, not a revolutionary, and we need to stop this garbage about him being more than what he was. A rapper.

Tupac is not to be spoken in the same breath as Biggie who was nothing but a common rapper.

Tupac was an activist.

One of the things he said was he never had a record until he made a record.

The Counterintellprogram three objectives are to discredit, imprison and kill.


Tupac helped in the process by acting arrogant over his fame. And then not seeking healing for being betrayed by Biggie and Puffy and shot five times.

Also the sister betrayed him who lied and said Tupac helped others to rape her!

Tupac was angry and you can hear alot of that on his later albums "Fack the World" "All Eyes On Me" and "Makevelli".

This why forgiveness is so important not for you enemies but for you!

The Govt discredited Tupac with false charges and arrests. Then they imprisoned him.

With his credibility gone he was open for death the only thing to do was set it up.

If killed then his death could be easily blamed on his shattered reputation.

So some say you live by the gun you die by the gun.

They said the same thing when Malcom X got killed.

And you who call yourselves Pro Black are targets but most of you will never risk anything the way that Tupac Shakur and his mother Afeni Shakur did so you never see the real teeth of the devil.

It is easy to criticize Tupac when you're an arm chair revolutionary!

Counterintellpro is alive and well and is still used to kill us off one by one at the least make us look crazy or criminal to our people so they won't follow us.


The only thing Tupac risked was losing a record deal. When he was alive how often did he come to schools, visit homeless sheltlers, help with voter registration drives.

I risk my life everytime I make a concious decision to intervene when I see young black males fighting in the streets of harlem or Newark.

This is rhetoric is becoming a little ridiculous.

Thank you so much Akilles for clarifying Tupac's story. I mentioned Biggie because they were both murdered by the government.


Deep voice, let us be really really clear, Malcolm would have shot your and my head off, if we were in his enemy circle, before he was imprisoned and taught by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad how to love himself. He was a thug, he was a theif, he was self-destructive, but Allah blessed him to live to change, live to be a great great man. Tupac was not given that chance.

Malcolm had absolutely no love us, or more importantly himself before than. He too was a young man who was born in a home, victimized by amerikkkan racism. I should not have to suggest you read his autobiography.

Sekemu, having travelled and interfaced with young people, Tupac's picture is not a political ploy by the powers that be. The young people love him and respect him. The grassroots revere him, and no, these particularly young men are emulating his thug life. They are spitting the politcal truth about what is happening in their countries, using his truth, his articulation of real life as an example.

There is not gang violence in Senegal, France, Morocco, like there is in amerikkka. So we can't pin that on Tupac.

All I am saying, and I will let this rest. Unless you know that whole story, don't fall victim to media literacy. Use your critical thinking skills before demonizing a Black person who is dead, who was systematically murdered, and can't defend themselves. Akilles, made a poignant point:


"And you who call yourselves Pro Black are targets but most of you will never risk anything the way that Tupac Shakur and his mother Afeni Shakur did so you never see the real teeth of the devil.

It is easy to criticize Tupac when you're an arm chair revolutionary!

Counterintellpro is alive and well and is still used to kill us off one by one at the least make us look crazy or criminal to our people so they won't follow us"
Ase! on that Akilles.

Lastly, Brother Sekemu, Tupac is Alive! Our ancestors believe that if you say the name, that person lives forever. We are mere vessels walking this earth carrying the blood our ancestors.

Peace and Love.


You don't need to suggest that I read Malcoms biography,been there done that, no less than 4 times, I also have male relatives who are in the FOI and knew him quite well. Malcom embraced Islam after going to Prison, and as I said before he had few role models to choose from. Tupac had no excuse, and this is exactly what you are doing sistah, making excuses for him.

It seems to me the transition he made was one from progression to degeneration. Here was a young man that started out on the good foot, but made the concious decision to sell out and sign record deal with a hood because he felt despised by east coast rappers. Is this what you call activism?

Sistah please spell my name correctly (smile). Nobody said Tupac's picture was used as a political ploy, I said the popularity of his picture in foreign countries has more to do with marketing than anything else. No different than Bruce Lee's.

What grass roots organisations are you talking about, and why were they not on his band wagon when he was with death row records? Can you show me who these groups are and what work they have done in the community, citing his efforts as examples?

Yes...His spirit may be alive, but as someone intimately connected to Traditional African Religions, I know all to well that one must be extremely careful when invoking names of ancestors, particuliarly when a person passes by means of violence. Additionally the character of person is one of critical importance. When veneration an ancestor there should no ambiguity or question of character. In short, not all ancestors have the distinction of honor, and to venerate them would foolish and very dangerous.

Brother Sekhemu, first of all, please forgive me for spelling your name incorrectly. My apology.

I have much respect for what you do in the community and I was not addressing you about reading Malcolm's book. I am sorry you are taking so much of what I say personally. I am not going to go *** for tat (although I could) with you because you are stuck on your opinion about Tupac no matter what is said.

I beg to disagree you, but that is all good.

Thank you for you input on this subject. Looking forward to discussing other topics with you.

May God and the Ancestors bless you brother.

Peace and Love.

Brother Sekhemu, first of all, please forgive me for spelling your name incorrectly. My apology.

I have much respect for what you do in the community and I was not addressing you about reading Malcolm's book. I am sorry you are taking so much of what I say personally. I am not going to go *** for tat (although I could) with you because you are stuck on your opinion about Tupac no matter what is said.

I beg to disagree you, but that is all good.

Thank you for you input on this subject. Looking forward to discussing other topics with you.

May God and the Ancestors bless you brother.

Peace and Love.

Thank you for the apology. If you think I'm taking this personally, I think you miss the crux of what I've been trying to get across.

As I said, I work with black males, children in fact. They are my main concern, and my responsibility to give them constructive guidance.

Too many black boys do not have a father or father figure in their lives, and as such, a vacuum has been filled with entertainers who project strength rather than power. Our boys deserve better, and coming from a single parent house hold myself, I know there are far better examples of black male leadership than people like Tupac. For instance Paul Robeson.

Sistah as you know, our children are in big, big trouble, and our youth are becoming increasingly focused on style without substance. I am seeing far too many young black males striving to be entertainers rather than focusing on math and science.

Asian kids are kicking our a$$e$ in applied sciences while we talk about what rappers have the most bling bling or purport to be pseudo-revolutionaries.

As I said before, with much that is given much is expected, and I have seen too many black men in the position to make a change sell out.

It's no accident that 99% of rap videos never show a brotha or sistah reading a book, much less having one in hand. How can an entertainer talk about injustice and not talk about the importance of education and learning.

Our people are dying from lack of knowledge of self, and critical thinking. Being a black man working black boys the way I do, is probably different than most black men, but from where I'm standing the spirit of progress and civic duty has been co-opted by greed and consumption, by our own so called role models, and this makes me a wee bit concerned.

Yes sistah, we will have to agree to disagree

Peace and love

Honestly brother/sister, Your points are not in support of your conclusion and there are many disasterous generalizations and misclassifications. For example, Malcolm X and Biggie are in the same boat, African American Father, Carribean mother. How one becomes full blown Jamaican descent is inconsistent with one being declared an African American. Still on misclassifications, I am yet to be convinced how an African American with no native indian or European blood in him whatsoever, is "different" from an "average" african.

Tupac vs. Biggie hardly passes for a epoch making event in African American Vs. African immigrants fiasco. Niether have I ever considered the words of a common criminal like Tupac as anything close to revolutionary. If he is a black Icon, then the black race is in serious trouble. However, Booker T. Washington's book on "Up From Slavery" seems to have touched on an interesting subject, as you have indicated in your post. I intend to read up on that. Still on Booker T. Washington, I will like to sum up my reply to your post by referencing his antithetical icon, W.E.B Dubois. He seems to have tocuhed on something serious with his "talented tenth" thesis. However, what plagues the African American- African relationship is an understanding that both peoples can work together to realize the vision of Dubois in which the talented few helps the less opportuned majority. This is especially so given the talented African immigrant academicians in Diaspora, can be accepted into projects which can uplift the African American community and also that the African American experience/position in diaspora could be of use in Africa as well.


Good Post, Brother! I agree 1000%!

Peace!
Isaiah

The only thing Tupac risked was losing a record deal. When he was alive how often did he come to schools, visit homeless sheltlers, help with voter registration drives.

I risk my life everytime I make a concious decision to intervene when I see young black males fighting in the streets of harlem or Newark.

This is rhetoric is becoming a little ridiculous.

Great points, brother Sek!

Peace!
Isaiah

I understand what you are saying Destee. However it should be pointed out that being an idol of millions doesn't make one positive. Al Capone is worshipped as well, but what he is worshipped for isn't positive! That so many of our youth (and those not so young) can mention Tupac and Biggie in the same breath as a Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, Frederick Douglass, and Du Bois is quite frightening to me!

Yes, brother, say it again, say it again!(smile!) TEACH!

This guy was no icon! No disrespect intended Destee, but imagine your son following behind the acts of this clown, allowing a BLACK WOMAN to perform ORAL SEX on him in public!!!!

And yes, he gets to carry ALL the load of the responsibility for that act, because, as so many say, he was this born freakin' leader who's leadership I aint seen the first yet! And seeing as how we wont be seeing him no sooner than we'll see PAULIE in the Godfather, we'll never get toi see him lead nobody... He can't hold Chuck D's jock strap, but yet we're gonna attribute so much leadership to this little boy with the sweet smile and cute face... To me, that's what it was all about - imagery... Nothing more, nothing less than that... No substance at all...


Peace!
Isaiah

We talk about dead slave masters all the time. Death doesn't excuse one from criticism! Whether or not Tupac lived the Thug Life, he certainly promoted it, and millions of black youth are following his negaive influence. Neither Rembrandt, Beethovan, nor Van Gogh promoted values that were detrimental to their society! For that matter Malcolm X was a ruffians in his youth, but what is he remembered for? If it wasn't for his autobiography, no one would even know he used to be a criminal. As far as Tupac's mansion and wealth is concerned...I'm no more impressed by that than I am a drug dealers car or crib. Material wealth is not an indication of positive living.


Again, right on the money, Pan... We went through this in that HIPHOP IS APOLITICAl thread... If we aren't going to have a value higher than the value of the White Man's dollar bill, then he can buy and sell our worthless behind at the cheapest of prices...

In fact, that's how cointelpro worked, by giving NEGRO people a dollar, and telling them to go and destroy Black organizations... Like Militant said, when we have stooped to this level of seeing people like TUPAC and PDiddy as our heroes, we are a lost tribe... Hang it up, Black folks, 'cause theres no hope for a people like that...


Peace!
Isaiah