I am loathe to actually pose this question, as it seems even to me to be quite explosive and inflammatory... But the events of the past week, as well as some other very sensitive threads in this forum, leave me wondering why Continental Africans attack African Americans with such virulence?

I cannot understand what all the anger and the fury is all about. African Americans, Africans in Diaspora, have NEVER done anything to Continental brothers and sisters to warrant the venting of the kind spleen shown by this brother Simba... Someone called you names, and that results in you developing a terminal hatred toward that WHOLE group to which the perpetrator belongs??? Sounds Western White Man-like to me... Nevertheless, that is not an excuse for abuse, and I don't tolerate it as one.

Can someone tell me what is at work here??? I keep hearing Africans talk about African Americans feeling themselves BETTER than Continental AFricans... I have NEVER heard an African American speak of him or herself as being better than Continental Africans - NEVER! I don't speak for all, only out of my personal experience. I have only known AFrican Americans to be highly offended by those old Tarzan movies, or anything the demeans African people anywhere... Why a few years ago, Spanish Language telenovelas were depicting African people as cannibals and savages, cooking people in a large pot, with a large flame underneath. The great Celia Cruz was one of the actors in this piece of garbage. It was the African American NAACP that threatened to boycott GOODYEAR tires, the sponsor, and had that junk removed from spanish-language television...

Where were Continental Africans on this front??? It was Continental AFricans being attacked, as well as, AFricans in diaspora... When it comes to these matters, defending the honor and dignity of African descended folk around the globe, Continental Africans are no where to be found. Yet, some - I said SOME - want to lord it all over us as though somebody appointed them our GODS... It is as if the feel they've got a monopoly of AFrican-ess, and we must await their verification of authenticity... Yet we are told that we feel them inferior....

I don't understand it beyond the issue of shame for allowing others to defend the honor of African people, when they who should be, are not... Like leaving your brother to defend the honor of your wife... "My brother thinks he is so superior to me!" Because he stood up and did what I was too something or other to do??? Enough said... Somebody else help me with this thing, please???

Peace!
Isaiahd

When it comes to this subject there's an obvious bias that we'll never get to the bottom of. Thinking unemotionally and analytically examing each side is the key. Simba deserves a whole new thread on "Continental African Inferiority Complex" but none of you who are so unbelievably flabbergasted at how "so so many Africans hate Black Americans" have started any thread for the Black Americans who ( tired song, I know ) are adament that all Africans are jet Black, ugly, smell like ****, have AIDS, the BAs and WI's who openly admit hating and disliking Africans, the BA's who mistreat Africans in real life and the BA's who ( understandbly, their perogative ) want nothing to do with Africans.

"I have NEVER heard an African American speak of him or herself as being better than Continental Africans - NEVER"

You can't argue something like this because I and many other Africans have heard plenty. There was a time I seriously tried to keep track for 'emergency situations' like this but it doesn't matter anymore, there will always be that blatant bias.

i have been around AAs all my life and i have NEVER heard any negativity toward Africans.
continentals come over here take jobs, take women, start businesses and fit right in.
no problem.

the only negativity i have ever heard comes from the mouths of continentals.

When it comes to this subject there's an obvious bias that we'll never get to the bottom of. Thinking unemotionally and analytically examing each side is the key. Simba deserves a whole new thread on "Continental African Inferiority Complex" but none of you who are so unbelievably flabbergasted at how "so so many Africans hate Black Americans" have started any thread for the Black Americans who ( tired song, I know ) are adament that all Africans are jet Black, ugly, smell like ****, have AIDS, the BAs and WI's who openly admit hating and disliking Africans, the BA's who mistreat Africans in real life and the BA's who ( understandbly, their perogative ) want nothing to do with Africans.

"I have NEVER heard an African American speak of him or herself as being better than Continental Africans - NEVER"

You can't argue something like this because I and many other Africans have heard plenty. There was a time I seriously tried to keep track for 'emergency situations' like this but it doesn't matter anymore, there will always be that blatant bias.


Brother, I don't doubt that were a similar thread started with African Americans and African Caribbeans in the banner, that there wouldn't be plenty of commentary in the reverse. My issue is, is name-calling a call to virulent hatred? Are Continental Africans THAT sensitive???

Again, as I mentioned in another thread, my own mother was called names by her fellow African Americans, because she a different speech pattern than most. I have known Darker and lighter-skinned African Americans who suffered the brunt of some very hurtful insults from their fellow African Americans... I have heard African Americans talk ignorantly and disgracefully about African Caribbenas, and I have heard the same insults directed at African Americans by AFrican Caribbeans... This stuff put out there by SIMBA takes the cake... It positively takes the prize for virulence, and I want to know what the hell is going on...

I have African Americans telling me and other African Americans to visit the continent... Why do that if this is what we are going to face once over there??? I know myself, and I might not come back alive were I subjected to this kind stupidness expressed by Simba... I don't tolerate it from anyone here, and I aint going 18,000 miles away to swallow no garbage...

What is needed from Africans and African Americans alike is HONESTY about this thing... I know some of my favorite people on this board have expressed lots of love for African people and culture, and praised Africa and Africans to the high hilt... I have said they are being romantic about the continent - if not the people there... Based on some of the things I have read in this forum even before Simba got here, I have not been disabused of that notion... Unfortunately, these folks are re-inforcing a great deal of what I felt to be the case...

Peace!
Isaiah

i have been around AAs all my life and i have NEVER heard any negativity toward Africans.
continentals come over here take jobs, take women, start businesses and fit right in.
no problem.

the only negativity i have ever heard comes from the mouths of continentals.

Amazing. Maybe your not looking for it because one could swear there are a whole fuckload of Africans who are either blatantly lying or like myself, somehow subconsciously blatantly fabricated certain memories of Black Americans looking down on or disrespecting Africans. In my personal life, I have NEVER heard any African say anything negative about Black Americans, only on the net and they usually implied it came from bad experiences with them. Bias is a *****, huh!

"Are Continental Africans THAT sensitive???"

"This stuff put out there by SIMBA takes the cake... It positively takes the prize for virulence, and I want to know what the hell is going on..."

Whose really sensitive, again with the bias. The stuff with Simba is nothing ,believe me, beyond African/BA relations I'm surprised that even caught your attention because few things I read on the web or deal with in real life catch my attention anymore I usually won't bother going to any African thread I see on any website. If Simba takes the cake, none of what you've experienced before has been truly hateful. I've heard WAY harsher from Black Americans then 'leave our women alone' or even '**** Africa/Africans ain't ****'.

"Why do that if this is what we are going to face once over there??? I know myself, and I might not come back alive were I subjected to this kind stupidness expressed by Simba... I don't tolerate it from anyone here, and I aint going 18,000 miles away to swallow no garbage..."

I seriously doubt you'd have anything to worry about

Amazing. Maybe your not looking for it because one could swear there are a whole fuckload of Africans who are either blatantly lying or like myself, somehow subconsciously blatantly fabricated certain memories of Black Americans looking down on or disrespecting Africans. In my personal life, I have NEVER heard any African say anything negative about Black Americans, only on the net and they usually implied it came from bad experiences with them. Bias is a *****, huh!

"Are Continental Africans THAT sensitive???"

"This stuff put out there by SIMBA takes the cake... It positively takes the prize for virulence, and I want to know what the hell is going on..."

Whose really sensitive, again with the bias. The stuff with Simba is nothing ,believe me, beyond African/BA relations I'm surprised that even caught your attention because few things I read on the web or deal with in real life catch my attention anymore I usually won't bother going to any African thread I see on any website. If Simba takes the cake, none of what you've experienced before has been truly hateful. I've heard WAY harsher from Black Americans then 'leave our women alone' or even '**** Africa/Africans ain't ****'.

"Why do that if this is what we are going to face once over there??? I know myself, and I might not come back alive were I subjected to this kind stupidness expressed by Simba... I don't tolerate it from anyone here, and I aint going 18,000 miles away to swallow no garbage..."

I seriously doubt you'd have anything to worry about

Brother, again, enough with the back-and-forth... WHAT are the dirty nasty things African Americans have DONE to Continental Africans to warrant the kind of garbage that came from Simba, as well as, from other Continentals I've read in these pages... I said I'd heard people saying nasty things to, and about one another, but does that warrant being outright ugly??? Do words impact and penetrate to that extent??? If they do, then something is terribly off in someone's psyche...

And, by comparison, White Folks say worse things about Africans... Not only that, they DO worse things to Africans... Yet they don't come in for this kind of stuff... Yeah, man, that baffles me... Where is all the spleen for white folks, man??? All I see is Africans asking white man to come in and put out the fire White man caused in the first place - as in Ivory Coast or Rwanda...

Do Continental Africans honestly believe African Americans aren't paying attention to that stuff??? They need to think again.

Peace!
Isaiah

I have to agree with brother Isaiah, if we are going to end the hostility which exists between some Africans & African Americans then there must be honest (civil) discussion. Many African Americans feel that Africans sold us into slavery. As a result those who feel this way blame Africans for our condition. In other words, while most African Americans blame white people for the crimes committed against our ancestors, some feel that Africans were willing accomplices to these crimes. This is the source of a lot of African American resentment towards Africans. In addition to this, for 400 years of living with white people, Africans & African culture has been portrayed as inferior and ignorant. The African has been painted as the primitive savage (in TV, News Reports, Film, Books, etc). African Americans have been taught that white culture is superior, and that the closer we come get to copying white culture, the more successful we will be. Many African Americans have internalized these messages. However, while many African Americans have internalized such lessons, that doesn’t mean the majority have. The majority of African Americans do recognize their connection with Africa. It is the very reason most have taken the term African American. Although many African Americans don’t connect with Africa, because most don’t know anything about Africa than what they see on TV. In addition to this, many Africans don’t make an effort to let themselves be known. This is what happens on the African American side.

The missing piece of the puzzle is what reason do African’s have to be hostile towards African Americans? Brother Isaiah has laid down a key observations: Many Africans display feelings towards African Americans which borders on hatred. I also share his puzzlement at what could African Americans have possibly done to Africans to warrant the amount of fear & distrust they have towards us. We don’t have a history of conflict in Africa. Indeed, there is nothing on the African continent which is the result of African American hostility. Africans seem to cite how we have treated them wrong, but they never say how. This is even true of yourself African_Prince. You have said:

The stuff with Simba is nothing ,believe me, beyond African/BA relations I'm surprised that even caught your attention because few things I read on the web or deal with in real life catch my attention anymore I usually won't bother going to any African thread I see on any website. If Simba takes the cake, none of what you've experienced before has been truly hateful. I've heard WAY harsher from Black Americans then 'leave our women alone' or even '**** Africa/Africans ain't ****'.

Please tell us exactly what truly hateful things have African Americans done to you? Be specific because I…like brother Isaiah….like brother James….like many African Americans don’t have a clue! In fact, you don’t live in America African_Prince…you’re in Canada! How can you have had such extensive experience with African Americans, that you feel you know all of us? Despite all the hateful & personal things Simba (and a few other Africans) said about me, I know they don’t speak for all Africans. Why do Africans who have negative encounters with African American, seem not to be able to make this distinction? Surely Africans also experience hostility & prejudice from white people in America & Europe. As a matter of fact, I know they do. That being the case, why don’t they develop similar distain for them? What is unique about African Americans to elicit the hatred? What exactly earned us the reputation that we have? Again give us specifics!

I think some Africans display hatred for African Americans for the same reasons other immigrant groups do: AfroAmericans in the eyes of white culture are at the bottom of the racial totem pole. If you align yourself with Black Americans, then in the eyes of some ignorant folk you won't get anywhere; align yourself with whites means you have properly assimilated.

However, on the flip side of the coin African Americans are not innocent in all of this and DO exhibit verbal prejudice against their African brethren, which further fuels the fire.

Now, as to the question of why is it harder for Africans to forgive AfroAmericans who have wronged them in comparison to 'forgiving' whites.. well, the answer has already been stated above: aligning yourself with white means you have properly assimilated. It's easier for some to 'overlook' what whites have done because they have all the power in this country.

Amazing. Maybe your not looking for it because one could swear there are a whole fuckload of Africans who are either blatantly lying or like myself, somehow subconsciously blatantly fabricated certain memories of Black Americans looking down on or disrespecting Africans. In my personal life, I have NEVER heard any African say anything negative about Black Americans, only on the net and they usually implied it came from bad experiences with them. Bias is a *****, huh!

"Are Continental Africans THAT sensitive???"

"This stuff put out there by SIMBA takes the cake... It positively takes the prize for virulence, and I want to know what the hell is going on..."

Whose really sensitive, again with the bias. The stuff with Simba is nothing ,believe me, beyond African/BA relations I'm surprised that even caught your attention because few things I read on the web or deal with in real life catch my attention anymore I usually won't bother going to any African thread I see on any website. If Simba takes the cake, none of what you've experienced before has been truly hateful. I've heard WAY harsher from Black Americans then 'leave our women alone' or even '**** Africa/Africans ain't ****'.

"Why do that if this is what we are going to face once over there??? I know myself, and I might not come back alive were I subjected to this kind stupidness expressed by Simba... I don't tolerate it from anyone here, and I aint going 18,000 miles away to swallow no garbage..."

I seriously doubt you'd have anything to worry about


It seems to me one of the crucial points being made here, is that a number of continental Africans have come on this website offering little in the way of solidarity. It would seem to me that if you post this type of posturing and rhetoric.... on a website created and owned by a African American person, in the United States of America , why would you expect to be greeted with open arms? This would be like an Italian going to france complaining about how the french lead their lives

I think some Africans display hatred for African Americans for the same reasons other immigrant groups do: AfroAmericans in the eyes of white culture are at the bottom of the racial totem pole. If you align yourself with Black Americans, then in the eyes of some ignorant folk you won't get anywhere; align yourself with whites means you have properly assimilated.

However, on the flip side of the coin African Americans are not innocent in all of this and DO exhibit verbal prejudice against their African brethren, which further fuels the fire.

Now, as to the question of why is it harder for Africans to forgive AfroAmericans who have wronged them in comparison to 'forgiving' whites.. well, the answer has already been stated above: aligning yourself with white means you have properly assimilated. It's easier for some to 'overlook' what whites have done because they have all the power in this country.

This is an astute observation Karmashines, and you might be right. However, I'd rather hear it from the source!

could it be that it is far safer to vent against African Americans than against white people?
is it the same syndrome that when your boss gives you a real hard time you then go home and beat your wife?

could it be that they don't have the NERVE to speak against the white man?

Like Karma said, many Africans seem to believe in the same stereotypes other immigrants do and voluntarily segregate themselves from us.
Others don't need to tell them something they witness everyday with their own eyes.

In places like Washington D.C. and Minneaopolis where you have large African populations, you find most of them owning their own businesses...gettting and education...and maintaining successful families and can't understand why most of us can't do the same.

They haven't been through what we've been through and this needs to be explained to them.




While I don't think Africans are inferior....I DO think many Africans have an inferiority complex with regards to their looks more than anything else.

While most Africans are relatively good looking people with fit bodies, some are considered very unattractive by global standards.

The southern Sudanese with there extemely dusky-dark skin and very kinky hair stick out like a sore thumb even among black people in America and are often discriminated against socially because of the way they look.

Many of our people call them ugly and isolate them socially so perhaps that's where the inferiority complex of many AFricans come from.

But southern Sudanese and people who look like them are clearly in the minority as most African women I've met were generally attractive and feminine.




As far as Simba goes....

I hadn't had a chance to read how the thread progressed over the last couple days.

From most of what I've read he was clearly out of line in most of what he was accusing PanAfrica and other AfroAmerican men of.
Most of his statements were clearly meant to be inflammatory and rarely have I heard other real Africans say some of the things he said...and I hinted on this on my first post to him.

But don't let his behavior turn us against Africans.



But this speaks to another issue of us calling ourselves Africans and attempting to practice Afrocentrism.

I've said for some time not that what Africans really believe and what is being promoted as "Afrocentrism" in the black community of America is as different as day and night.

The Civil Rights Movement has been hi-jacked and subverted by the feminist movement so we are being lied to by some of our leaders who claim that Africans are matriarchal, passive, vegetarians who do nothing but worship thier queens all day.
Nothign can be further from the truth.

Many of the concious among us often run into brick walls when they meet real Africans from the continent and find out how they really feel about us and how they see the world.

It's a shock to most AfroAmericans when they find out that most Africans think and behave more like white Americans than we do. I know it was for me.

As far as Simba goes....I hadn't had a chance to read how the thread progressed over the last couple days. From most of what I've read he was clearly out of line in most of what he was accusing PanAfrica and other AfroAmerican men of. Most of his statements were clearly meant to be inflammatory and rarely have I heard other real Africans say some of the things he said...and I hinted on this on my first post to him. But don't let his behavior turn us against Africans. But this speaks to another issue of us calling ourselves Africans and attempting to practice Afrocentrism.
I've said for some time not that what Africans really believe and what is being promoted as "Afrocentrism" in the black community of America is as different as day and night. The Civil Rights Movement has been hi-jacked and subverted by the feminist movement so we are being lied to by some of our leaders who claim that Africans are matriarchal, passive, vegetarians who do nothing but worship thier queens all day. Nothing can be further from the truth. Many of the concious among us often run into brick walls when they meet real Africans from the continent and find out how they really feel about us and how they see the world. It's a shock to most AfroAmericans when they find out that most Africans think and behave more like white Americans than we do. I know it was for me.

Simba was an individual who clearly suffered from hatred, jealously, and hypocricy. He certainly does not represent all Africans. However, while Black Nationalism might be different in the US than it is anywhere else. The PanAfricanist movement has always involved Africans & African Caribbeans. My father in-law is a PanAfricanist, and he was long before he ever met me (before I was even born). In reality many Africans who come to this country are not coming to be united with African Americans, they are coming to live in America (to live the American lifestyle). America is white people, the American lifestyle is theirs, not ours. If there is any realization we should have about African immigrants, that is what we should realize. On the other hand some Africans come to this country, and want to form relationships with African Americans. In either case, it is not reasonable for African Americans to expect Africans to see the world the same way we do. I do caution against saying that most Africans think & act like white folk do. If we as African Americans can have individuals like Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes....certainly Africans can have the same. We can't say how most Africans think or behave until & unless we go to Africa.

Simba was an individual who clearly suffered from hatred, jealously, and hypocricy. He certainly does not represent all Africans. However, while Black Nationalism might be different in the US than it is anywhere else. The PanAfricanist movement has always involved Africans & African Caribbeans. My father in-law is a PanAfricanist, and he was long before he ever met me (before I was even born). In reality many Africans who come to this country are not coming to be united with African Americans, they are coming to live in America (to live the American lifestyle). America is white people, the American lifestyle is theirs, not ours. If there is any realization we should have about African immigrants, that is what we should realize. On the other hand some Africans come to this country, and want to form relationships with African Americans. In either case, it is not reasonable for African Americans to expect Africans to see the world the same way we do. I do caution against saying that most Africans think & act like white folk do. If we as African Americans can have individuals like Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes....certainly Africans can have the same. We can't say how most Africans think or behave until & unless we go to Africa.

Pan, I am in agreement with you, and Ralfa'il regarding Simba as an individual Continental African person(though who knows if he is not someones agent provocateur?)... Both of your points regarding what we experience on discussion boards and real life, must be taken into account. I have, personally, NEVER met a Continental African Brother or Sister who spewed out the kind of rhetoric of a Simba - and if I did I would dismiss such persons as folk who were outta their minds... We know some African folks on boths sides of this equation can be said to have lost their AFrican minds...

Again, Pan, you did explicate nicely what I was getting at, which is what have been our ACTIONS - beyond insulting words - that would warrant a Simba's hostility???

BTW, Ralfa,il, brotherman or brothermen, your choice of words of "REAL" African struck me as telling... You don't consider US in the United States "REAL" Africans?(smile!) Like I said, I believe African Diasporans expanded the meaning of what it means to be AFrican, just as Italian Americans or Irish Americans expanded what it means to be Irish and Italian. I think African Americans have done more to promote African people's culture than any other single group of folk, and that OUR CULTURE has dominated cultural trends around the world for more than a century now... Think about that... Jazz, the Blues, Rhythm&Blues, and Gospel... What AFrican country has produced anything more popular? Salsa, Reggae, Calypso... What African Nation has produced anything more significant culturally???

Peace!
Isaiah

Peace!
Isaiah

I have to say who I am, I am Simba the African you have banned just a couple of hours ago. I knew you were capable of such a thing, so it seems Africans are not capable of being truly honest in this website. However, I totally respect the fact that this site is yours, then what about the call of Panfricanism? Do you want to hear only pleasant things to your ears, and read only non-bothering words in your forums? I am a man who is very proud to be African, so are you to be African Americans. In spite of all things, we can be honest with each other; or do we have to hide our feelings just to show a sometimes phony alliance? I am an angry man because Africans people suffer, and we don’t connect particularly with African Americans, and neither with the West Indians. This sucks, so I turn away from African Americans.

We are speaking in general about our people’s relationships, but things have to be said in general, because it is what we see day to day. So few makes the effort to bridge the gap, so few is genuine, so few see the necessity to struggle together. If you wish I leave this website definitely I will do so, to never come back. As strange as it might seems I had to express my feelings in this website because of many things you have said, and sorry if it creates bitterness…on both part believe me.

I am perhaps a crazy individual and completely jealous to you, I think it’s justified; our nations are a shame, our leaders clearly colonized and our militants isolated. I am a very observant man and I despise certain phony attitudes and mentality. I will remain quit if you invite me to stay.

I have to say who I am, I am Simba the African you have banned just a couple of hours ago. I knew you were capable of such a thing, so it seems Africans are not capable of being truly honest in this website. However, I totally respect the fact that this site is yours, then what about the call of Panfricanism? Do you want to hear only pleasant things to your ears, and read only non-bothering words in your forums? I am a man who is very proud to be African, so are you to be African Americans. In spite of all things, we can be honest with each other; or do we have to hide our feelings just to show a sometimes phony alliance? I am an angry man because Africans people suffer, and we don’t connect particularly with African Americans, and neither with the West Indians. This sucks, so I turn away from African Americans.

We are speaking in general about our people’s relationships, but things have to be said in general, because it is what we see day to day. So few makes the effort to bridge the gap, so few is genuine, so few see the necessity to struggle together. If you wish I leave this website definitely I will do so, to never come back. As strange as it might seems I had to express my feelings in this website because of many things you have said, and sorry if it creates bitterness…on both part believe me.

I am perhaps a crazy individual and completely jealous to you, I think it’s justified; our nations are a shame, our leaders clearly colonized and our militants isolated. I am a very observant man and I despise certain phony attitudes and mentality. I will remain quit if you invite me to stay.

I think if you came in with this spirit to begin with, you never would have been banned in the first place. We don't only want to hear pleasant news; however, we do expect to be treated with respect. No one on this site has hurt or insulted Africans, indeed we have gone out of our way to embrace them. Why should we be expected to tolerate abuse? You probably have a right to be angry at the suffering at Africans. However African Americans are not the cause of that suffering. In fact, African Americans also suffer, as do most black people. As I told you before, you are angry with the wrong people. Unfocused anger & frustration is no use to anyone.

I have to say who I am, I am Simba the African you have banned just a couple of hours ago. I knew you were capable of such a thing, so it seems Africans are not capable of being truly honest in this website. However, I totally respect the fact that this site is yours, then what about the call of Panfricanism? Do you want to hear only pleasant things to your ears, and read only non-bothering words in your forums? I am a man who is very proud to be African, so are you to be African Americans. In spite of all things, we can be honest with each other; or do we have to hide our feelings just to show a sometimes phony alliance? I am an angry man because Africans people suffer, and we don’t connect particularly with African Americans, and neither with the West Indians. This sucks, so I turn away from African Americans.

We are speaking in general about our people’s relationships, but things have to be said in general, because it is what we see day to day. So few makes the effort to bridge the gap, so few is genuine, so few see the necessity to struggle together. If you wish I leave this website definitely I will do so, to never come back. As strange as it might seems I had to express my feelings in this website because of many things you have said, and sorry if it creates bitterness…on both part believe me.

I am perhaps a crazy individual and completely jealous to you, I think it’s justified; our nations are a shame, our leaders clearly colonized and our militants isolated. I am a very observant man and I despise certain phony attitudes and mentality. I will remain quit if you invite me to stay.

Brother, I didn't ban you... Ironically, I've had some troubles with banning of my perspectives from another website, and I didn't understand that, either... Honesty at that website was not appreciated, but as it was a white-owned wwebsite, I understood their position... There, we have some things in common...

What we don't have in common is that I didn't spew out a lot of hate speech, thereby giving justification for a banning(read Destee's rules, brother)... I spoke to some very undeniable facts, namely, that Black music is Black Music, and not AMERICAN music... You, Simba, were doing some other stuff - which you cannot deny was hate speech...

Talking about Pan's relationship with his wife as him "stealing her" from African men was flat stupid... Continental African men don't OWN Continental African women... African American men sure as hell don't OWN African American Women! Picture that!

I don't have issues with you being honest with us as to your feelings that we are being a tad romantic about Africa and our relationships with Africans from the continent... I have expressed those kinds of beliefs, myself, and I expressed them not because I felt there were guys like you out there. I expressed them knowing human nature to be what it is. I believe a lot of us Africans in America feel that Africans are going to welcome us with open arms because we believe they see us as long lost brother and sister. I ask why should they when we do not do that for them, and vice versa? I just ask that we be real, and take another approach. The simple approach of respecting one another as human beings first. That is the other common denominator we both possess. That's our hole card, as we say in the United States

That having been said, I am against the banning of African people who are not totally disruptive, and not acting as an agent for our enemies. Full voice should be given to dissenting viewpoints. I don't have to like your views for you and I to rap - as long as we can do so in a civil manner. I

f you, brother, are willing to steer clear of the personal stuff you were throwing out there, the crazy tribal, "us versus them" mentality, I would welcome you back... But frankly, I believe tribalism to be a no-no... It is counter-productive in the larger scheme of what this thread is all about, which is PAN-AFRICANISM. If you aren't going to be about that, about changing some attitudes, including your own, then I would that you quietly go off into the sunset...

Peace!
Isaiah

Brother, again, enough with the back-and-forth... WHAT are the dirty nasty things African Americans have DONE to Continental Africans to warrant the kind of garbage that came from Simba, as well as, from other Continentals I've read in these pages... I said I'd heard people saying nasty things to, and about one another, but does that warrant being outright ugly??? Do words impact and penetrate to that extent??? If they do, then something is terribly off in someone's psyche...

And, by comparison, White Folks say worse things about Africans... Not only that, they DO worse things to Africans... Yet they don't come in for this kind of stuff... Yeah, man, that baffles me... Where is all the spleen for white folks, man??? All I see is Africans asking white man to come in and put out the fire White man caused in the first place - as in Ivory Coast or Rwanda...

Do Continental Africans honestly believe African Americans aren't paying attention to that stuff??? They need to think again.

Peace!
Isaiah

I'll respond to this first before I read on. Most of you are biased and you think emotionally. There are far harsher Black American Simba's and if I tell you some examples of some BA's who mistreat Africans you will respond with how continental Africans 'hate' Black Americans and ask why. My posts won't make much of an impact regardless, unfortanatly, and you'll only pick parts here and there if you take any of what I say seriously.

Obviously words do 'pentrate to that extent' otherwise you would not have started this thread...

I agree White folks do say just as harsh things about Africans, but many African immigrants will tell you that the White Americans tended to treat them better and it was the Black Americans who mistreated them. Their may be some reasons for this.

*White Americans don't want to attack Africans because they may be pinned with racism.

*Black Americans feel Africans sold them into slavery ( I've gotten into that before and it's another discussion ) so theres that resentment.

*Culture shock ( frankly ) and rebelling against the expectation that Black Americans are supposed to identify with the worlds most undesirable continent

* White Americans can put on a 'new face' with African/Caribbean/AfroLatino immigrants , what with 400 years of experience with them, Black Americans know their true nature , I've heard this from a few Black American posters.

All you see is Africans asking the White man for help , 'all you see' contributes to a lot of the prejudice and misconceptions Black Americans have about Africa. What if 'all I see' about Black Americans is Menace II Society, and the usual baby mama/daddy drama, out of wedlock children with no fathers, drug dealers, inner city violence and so on. You think the world isn't paying attention to that stuff? The U.N was supposed to intervene in Rwanda because Africans feel they are a part of the international community, we were mistaken.

I'll respond to this first before I read on. Most of you are biased and you think emotionally. There are far harsher Black American Simba's and if I tell you some examples of some BA's who mistreat Africans you will respond with how continental Africans 'hate' Black Americans and ask why. My posts won't make much of an impact regardless, unfortanatly, and you'll only pick parts here and there if you take any of what I say seriously.

Obviously words do 'pentrate to that extent' otherwise you would not have started this thread...

I agree White folks do say just as harsh things about Africans, but many African immigrants will tell you that the White Americans tended to treat them better and it was the Black Americans who mistreated them. Their may be some reasons for this.

All you see is Africans asking the White man for help , 'all you see' contributes to a lot of the prejudice and misconceptions Black Americans have about Africa. What if 'all I see' about Black Americans is Menace II Society, and the usual baby mama/daddy drama, out of wedlock children with no fathers, drug dealers, inner city violence and so on. You think the world isn't paying attention to that stuff? The U.N was supposed to intervene in Rwanda because Africans feel they are a part of the international community, we were mistaken.

African_Prince:

We have a very simple question: What reasons do some Africans have to hate African Americans? You have danced around this question. Until someone (you or another African) can give a concrete answer to it: by offering specific examples, events, etc, I will continue to believe some Africans are suffering from misplaced anger!

I've read the other posts and hopefully I won't miss anything.

We may not have that reputation, but trust me when I say many Africans do resent White people and vent about them and White racism as well. I don't consider myself a pan-Africanist but I will side with a diasporan Black over a White person, whether they'd side with me is another matter.

Many Africans do have naive and pan-Africanist expectations of how their relationship with Black Americans is going to be then are dissappointed when they are mistreated by them and clear many BA's don't want anything to do with them.( Do you know that during apartheid there was actually a cult in South Africa that believed a group of Black Americans was going to come rescuse them and put an end to White racist rule?) "I'll get you first" is the human mentality, nobody wants to be victimized or disrespected.

Pan Africa, you can call me a 'faker' or whatever because I don't live in the U.S but I've said the internet is another form of communication and if someone says 'this is my experiences' or someone else telles me their experiences, how do you blatantly claim I'm lying. I can't keep track of every single example, I tried to with all the experiences I've had with peckerwoods I've had at my school, it leads to obsessive compulsive thinking for me (literally) and this obsessive obligation to remember so you can have something to hold against them. In the end, as Maya Angelou said, you will forget what it was exactly that someone said or did, what you'll remember is how they made you feel. Off the top of my head, what have BA's done to Africans. Well there's

Liberia ( the wars to claim it, forced labour, excluding native Liberians from the political system) but I don't think we can hold that against the descendents of freed BA slaves who decided to stay in America.

There's 41 murdered Senegalese taxi drivers in Harlem, just as an example of where this can escalate in certain neighborhoods.

Theres the physical fights Africans get into with BA's, usually of a younger age ( teens/twenties).

There's the jokes ( may not mean much in the big picture but people are people ), there's the stereotyping ( jet Black, ugly, AIDS, mud hut and so on )

There's the superiority complex

Many BA's don't identify with Africans and make that clear ( I personally don't mind, but another Africans mentality may be like 'what, well **** you then' and theres that kind of resentment )

A lot of it can be really 'creative' and I can't think of everything off the top of my head. Why is this all about BA's vs Africans as well, what about West Indian/Latino Blacks?

African_Prince:

We have a very simple question: What reasons do some Africans have to hate African Americans? You have danced around this question. Until someone (you or another African) can give a concrete answer to it: by offering specific examples, events, etc, I will continue to believe some Africans are suffering from misplaced anger!

I wasn't trying to dance around the question, I haven't seen this post until I finished my last. I have a hard time believing you've legitimatly never heard any anti-African sentiment from Black Americans, you've talked about some yourself and admitted most BA's aren't pan-Africanists.

I wasn't trying to dance around the question, I haven't seen this post until I finished my last. I have a hard time believing you've legitimatly never heard any anti-African sentiment from Black Americans, you've talked about some yourself and admitted most BA's aren't pan-Africanists.

I've heard some African Americans make fun of Africans for being extremely dark....that is it! Guess what? African Americans also make fun of each other for being dark. I think this is stupid, but it happens. Most African Americans aren't PanAfricanist, but that doesn't mean they hate Africans. They treat Africans like any other black people (for good or bad). Everything that can be directed at an African: AIDs, Killing each other, etc...can also be directed back at African Americans. We are in the same boat! African_Prince another thing that you haven't addressed which you need to is that you don't live in America yourself. You live in Canada, if your only experience with African Americans is so called black websites, then you don't have geniune experiences that you can truly judge us on.

This is evident with your disclosure that 41 Senegalese Taxi Drivers have been murdered in Harlem. That is tragic, but it isn't an indication that African Americans hate Africans. Do you know how many African American Taxi Drivers have been murdered in Harlem? I can assure you a whole Hell of a lot more than 41! Were these Senegalese murdered by African Americans? You do know more than black people live in Harlem don't you? Were these Senegalese murdered because they were African, or were they the unfortunate victims of a crime of opportunity? Driving a cab is a dangerous profession, they get targeted for robberies all the time. If that is your strongest case to have bias against African Americans, it is incredibly weak & petty! Indeed it is completely baseless! I wish you could see how many African Americans across the country were outraged at Diallo's murder. Diallo didn't even speak English; however, all African Americans identified with him because he was a black man like all of us. That is why he died, and we all know it could have been any of us. It didn't matter that he was African...he was black....just like the rest of us!

I've heard some African Americans make fun of Africans for being extremely dark....that is it! Guess what? African Americans also make fun of each other for being dark. I think this is stupid, but it happens. Most African Americans aren't PanAfricanist, but that doesn't mean they hate Africans. They treat Africans like any other black people (for good or bad). Everything that can be directed at an African: AIDs, Killing each other, etc...can also be directed back at African Americans. We are in the same boat! African_Prince another thing that you haven't addressed which you need to is that you don't live in America yourself. You live in Canada, if your only experience with African Americans is so called black websites, then you don't have geniune experiences that you can truly judge us on.

This is evident with your disclosure that 41 Senegalese Taxi Drivers have been murdered in Harlem. That is tragic, but it isn't an indication that African Americans hate Africans. Do you know how many African American Taxi Drivers have been murdered in Harlem? I can assure you a whole Hell of a lot more than 41! Were these Senegalese murdered by African Americans? You do know more than black people live in Harlem don't you? Were these Senegalese murdered because they were African, or were they the unfortunate victims of a crime of opportunity? Driving a cab is a dangerous profession, they get targeted for robberies all the time. If that is your strongest case to have bias against African Americans, it is incredibly weak & petty! Indeed it is completely baseless! I wish you could see how many African Americans across the country were outraged at Diallo's murder. Diallo didn't even speak English; however, all African Americans identified with him because he was a black man like all of us. That is why he died, and we all know it could have been any of us. It didn't matter that he was African...he was black....just like the rest of us!

Pan Africa, I never said anything about how I 'feel' about Black Americans one way or the other or that I was judging them, I've said for a long time the internet is another form of communication and what's your response to the countless Africans in the U.S who complain of bad experiences with BA's. I try to approach this objectively but I'm only human and young.

People are emotional so mistreated Africans aren't going to stop and think "hey, they do it to each other too", me talking about your mother is not the same as your brother talking about your mother. All I say is if Africans have a poor opinion of BA's ( which I haven't experienced at all personally, but I won't deny or question you on any bad experiences with Africans you tell me about or ask you to 'prove' it ) it is more than likely a defense mechanism from being mistreated by BA's, I'm just saying that's what it is. What your saying is out of context, human beings kill each other all the time, rape each other, exploit each other, hate each other so we could apply that principle to everyone. Why hate White people for colonialsim/slavery/apartheid, look at Sudan, look at Black on Black crime, look at the way human beings in general treat each other all through history. I'm sure your response to the KKK murdering a young Black teen wouldn't be the same as another Black teen murdering that Black teen, whenever you do anything across ethnic/racial lines it becomes ethnic or racial, it just does because people take that into consideration. Making fun of you because you're slow, stupid, fat or whatever is making fun of you because you're slow, stupid fat or whatever, targeting an ethnic group is wholly undemocratic because it covers everyone in that group, it is harsher then targeting individuals because of their own "flaws".

I know many BA's were outraged at Diallo (r.ip ), not all were. Not all BA's consider themselves as having anything to do with Africans what soever, in my little 'list of examples' I forgot to add the famous 'you're not Black ,you're foreign' that's one reason why many foreign Blacks resent BA's. How do you argue that pan-Africanists are the norm among the 40 million Black Americans. Many BA's/WI's will blatantly 'admit' hating Africans or having poor opinions of us, why do you have difficulty simply acknowledging they exist?

How do you argue that pan-Africanists are the norm among the 40 million Black Americans. Many BA's/WI's will blatantly 'admit' hating Africans or having poor opinions of us, why do you have difficulty simply acknowledging they exist?

I'm not arguing that most African Americans are PanAfricanist, I'm telling you most don't hate Africans. It isn't necessary to be a PanAfricanist in order to not have negative feelings towards Africans. Many African Americans "might" have poor opinions of Africans, but many does not mean most. That is a reality you and many other Africans seem to have a hard time believing. It is obvious that people will believe what they want to believe. When someone has something in their mind, it doesn't take much to solidify their pre-established beliefs. However I'm telling you most African Americans don't have negative feelings towards Africans. Isaiah says the same, JamesfrmPhilly says the same...neither of them are PanAfricanist. If a large amount of African Americans don't identify with Africans it is because they don't know about them...not because they hate them. The truth is the majority of African Americans are too busy with their own problems to worry about other people!

I'm not arguing that most African Americans are PanAfricanist, I'm telling you most don't hate Africans. It isn't necessary to be a PanAfricanist in order to not have negative feelings towards Africans. Many African Americans "might" have poor opinions of Africans, but many does not mean most. That is a reality you and many other Africans seem to have a hard time believing. It is obvious that people will believe what they want to believe. When someone has something in their mind, it doesn't take much to solidify their pre-established beliefs. However I'm telling you most African Americans don't have negative feelings towards Africans. Isaiah says the same, JamesfrmPhilly says the same...neither of them are PanAfricanist. If a large amount of African Americans don't identify with Africans it is because they don't know about them...not because they hate them. The truth is the majority of African Americans are too busy with their own problems to worry about other people!

I don't think most Black Americans hate Africans either too be honest, that's a strong word. I don't think most are thinking about Africans 24/7 in their personal lives, I do however beleive, when the subject or issue rolls around most do have poor/low or prejudiced opinions of Africans . I am also here telling you that most Africans don't hate Black Americans ( and surely 2 other Africans could back me up on that), and I truthfully believe if some Africans have a lowly or poor opinion of Black Americans it is because of bad experiences with them. This is the same bias I was talking about.

I have no preestablished ideas about this because in all honesty I could care less whether Black Americans hate Africans with a passion, look down on us or whatever because I am a man and I can hold my own in real life. I don't say that to trade blows with you or be like "forget you", I really just don't care. I lose nothing on this because I'm not the pan-Africanist, I don't promote pan-African unity or pan-Africanism.

Ike

Respect.


I see myself as an AfroAmerican (an Amerian of Afrian descent) but not as an African.


Being the analytical person that I am, it's hard for me to accept general terms and not compartmentalize people based on race, culture, nationality, religion, and other groups.

My race is black and my nationality is American.

I believe that we are all of the BLACK RACE, however a true African should be one born on the continent instead of one who just adopts certain aspects of the culture.


We are just as American as white people and shouldn't forfeit our rights and responsibilites to build and maintain wealth and property in this country.

I thing it would be a mistake to condemn the nation we are apart of just to claim identity with a continent most of us know little about in which we own nothing and have no power in.






Now when we talk about what AfroAmericans have done verse what Africans have done.....

You have to understand that all though Africa is still being exploited by the West, they still are somewhat independant.

Regardless of how poorly ran and how much turmoil they're in....Black Africans have thier own hospitials, militaries, land, institutions.


We as AfroAmericans are still dependant on white people in this country and are loosing ground politically and economically every year.

White men control the television and radio stations that we dance, sing, and act a fool on. We don't even have control over our families and the information that goes in and out of our communities.

What we enjoy in this nation is basically because we are in the presence of an independant white man who is running the show.


We have to work on moving toward our independance and self governing THEN we'll see how much time we'd have to sing, dance, and entertain.



Again, I'm not saying we are inferior to Africans and West Indians, but we are spoiled and dependant on whites for our basic needs so we're in no position to compare our wealth and condition to theirs.

We're basically like children in someone else's house.

Again, America legally is our nation to...but we aren't running it.

Brother Isaiah, don’t be upset because of the hot posts of one individual. Simba is not the typical African man; it is amazing to think so. In Africa you find extremely hospitable people, especially in Congo (that’s why you have millions of Rwandans invading my country in the last 10 years). We as a people are sick, miserable, Simba was telling his experience as we all expose ours. This is the best place to learn about each other, we usually do it very well. I have actually come defensive in my early times on these boards, do you remember? Yet you care about me, it’s all I want form Black Americans… and it is true, no one has the rights to abuse you... Simba showed the worse of Black people, it is sad.

But don’t let anyone make you believe that you are not Africans and the solution of African problems. If some angry continentals prevent you form exposing your tie to the Motherland, how any of us can change our relations? Believe it or not we are dependent on each other (not on the White man!) and have grown together in oppression, sooner or later we would have to see the need for international revolution, which is going to benefit both of our people. Let’s make that happen!

Brother Isaiah, don’t be upset because of the hot posts of one individual. Simba is not the typical African man; it is amazing to think so. In Africa you find extremely hospitable people, especially in Congo (that’s why you have millions of Rwandans invading my country in the last 10 years). We as a people are sick, miserable, Simba was telling his experience as we all expose ours. This is the best place to learn about each other, we usually do it very well. I have actually come defensive in my early times on these boards, do you remember? Yet you care about me, it’s all I want form Black Americans… and it is true, no one has the rights to abuse you... Simba showed the worse of Black people, it is sad.

But don’t let anyone make you believe that you are not Africans and the solution of African problems. If some angry continentals prevent you form exposing your tie to the Motherland, how any of us can change our relations? Believe it or not we are dependent on each other (not on the White man!) and have grown together in oppression, sooner or later we would have to see the need for international revolution, which is going to benefit both of our people. Let’s make that happen!

I'm glad to see you back sister Kwango_Likemba! I can see that Simba was hurt & suffering. He let that be know when he came in as 888. If he had came in like that to begin with, then he never would have been banned. It wasn't just what he said, but how he said it. Also it is one think to talk about a group, but quite another to attack an individual member (which isn't allowed). As it stands, I have recommended that Simba be re-instated.

I'm glad to see you back sister Kwango_Likemba!
Thank you Brother Panafrica! I feel much better. :)

I can see that Simba was hurt & suffering. He let that be know when he came in as 888.
It is unfortunate what happened with Simba but this show how in Black Africa we envy African Americans because you live in wealthy countries of White men. It’s too common for continentals to envy you and at the same time dislike you.

There must be very sell-out continentals hating Diasporians and find an excuse to espouse the ideology of Whites, but in the case of Simba I don’t know. At the same time we cannot mask the distrust for continentals by Africans Americans/Diasporians, it is still being preserved by what we see or experience each day.

If he had came in like that to begin with, then he never would have been banned. It wasn't just what he said, but how he said it. Also it is one think to talk about a group, but quite another to attack an individual member (which isn't allowed). As it stands, I have recommended that Simba be re-instated.
I am certainly offended at how it attacked you! Why having such an issue with you? I think he wishes he was you. I hate when continentals behave like that, it gives us bad reputation.
Are you sure you want to allow his return? He has a special prejudice towards you.

I am certainly offended at how it attacked you! Why having such an issue with you? I think he wishes he was you. I hate when continentals behave like that, it gives us bad reputation.
Are you sure you want to allow his return? He has a special prejudice towards you.

I made the recommendation, but the choice isn't mine alone. If he is allowed back, he would be banned again if he continued the same behavior.

Ola every one,
I just read this whole thread, It’s interesting . I can see how the different views have evolved.

I am a Black Puerto Rican, born on the island and came to New York city when I was 7. I have always been for Pan-African, for that’s how I was raised by my parents and grand perents. Though I don’t relate to Simba’s hatred, I can understand why some black Africans can feel resentment toward AA’s.

When I first came to the states, in the late fifties, I realized that AA’s did not know of other black people, in the world. In general of course. I also learned, that because AA’s have been isolated, that they have developed into their own culture and have adapted to a white ruled country. Fortunately things have change to some degree for both AA’s and the rest of the world since the fifties and sixties.

My point is that, we black-African people need to work together, to try to understand our differences, for they are small compared to our common obstacles ahead of us. I have only known three black Africans, and all three have been a delight to talk with, to understand their views and cultural history.
I have taken the time to read about Afrika, it’s cultures and it’s great contributions to mankind. The thing is that we all can get bugged down with the actions of a few and simply over look the richness of our different black cultures (Africaness).

I love to read the honesty that, that is posted here on this forum.

Thanks, one love, All is One. Corvo

Kwango

Respect, and glad to see you back sis..

I am certainly offended at how it attacked you! Why having such an issue with you? I think he wishes he was you. I hate when continentals behave like that, it gives us bad reputation.
Are you sure you want to allow his return? He has a special prejudice towards you.
I was kind of shocked myself.

At first I was agreeing with most of what he said concerning the differences between the values and behavior of Africans and AfroAmericans and how feminine many African women were compared to AfroAmerican women.

Then he veered a sharp right and started beating up on PanAfrica and other AfroAmerican men questioning why can't we just stick with "our own" kind.

I was like......what the hell?

I let it alone after that.




But speaking on Africans and AfroAmericans not getting along, Kwango you know as well as I do that what most black people overhere are promoting as "Afrocentrism" and African heritage has little or nothing to do with African culture.

How can we get along when black folks overhere are being misinformed about what Africans believe and value?



All

Like most AfroAmericans, our access and communication with Africans are limited and so we have these Afrocentric leaders who take bits and pieces of African culture from all over the continent and piece it together with New Age spiritualsim and deliver THAT to us as "African culture".

This is similar to what they did with introducing Swahili to us calling it "our" language.

They're telling black poeple that all Africans are kings and queens, women rule in Africa, everybody is vegetarian in Africa, and that those blacks who are Christian and Muslim don't really want to be...but are just brainwashed.

This is being passed off as Afrocentrism.

And like most other AfroAmericans, I believed it until I started meeting Africans in places like Canada and they set me straight.

The first thing I found out is that there are hundreds of different beliefs across the continent and it's not as simple as just knotting your hair up, wearing kente-cloth, and "calling" yourself an African.

I started meeting peope from Nigeria, the Congo, Senegal, Somalia and elsewhere and most of my romanticized view slowly faded away.

Ofcourse people are gonna get offended if they find out you're lying on them and thier culture and claiming their identity when you know little about it.

As AfroAmericans, we shouldn't get mad at Africans just because they don't fit the romanticized and false image we were given of them.

People need to be told the truth.

Only then can we begin to build.






Corvo

Peace

As a person who is both black and Puerto Rican, I suspect that you get angry about the full spectrum of your people not being properly represented on television.

When I was a kid growing up in the Midwest my only image of Puerto Ricans was "Julio" from Sandford & Son and a few other white characters.

It wasn't until I actually went to New York and saw black men and women darker than me speaking Spanish dressed in tight gear that I realized what most Puerto Ricans really look like.

Respect, and glad to see you back sis..
Mboté nayo (hi!) tata Ralfa’il ! You have been very helpful for my mental and emotional health. Thank you, I feel better.

But speaking on Africans and AfroAmericans not getting along, Kwango you know as well as I do that what most black people overhere are promoting as "Afrocentrism" and African heritage has little or nothing to do with African culture.

How can we get along when black folks overhere are being misinformed about what Africans believe and value?
The heinous attitude of Simba forced me to intervene. It is very important for you to know continentals are not "hateful" people, so many of us want to build a stronger relationship with Diasporians. But there doesn’t seem to be much love for continentals, I personally don’t think Diasparian "Afrocentrism" is a bad thing, it can be good. Diasporians needs to not blind themselves to the reality of Africa and feelings of continentals that’s all. Not all continentals are “innocent,” not all of us are going to love Diasporians; it is things like this we need to deal with when we call for Panafricanism...

Mobté na yo Corvo! I am African Congolese. I am glad you are here I love the " Black " Latino community! I do intend to visit Puerto Rico the island! I want to know: the Black race is numerous over there? Everyone I see in Puerto Rican music videos tend to be extremely lightskinned Blacks or Spanish looking people. I do not know if there are Blacks with no mixture there. Excuse my ignorance!!!

Ola,
puerto ricans are a very mixed people, about 30% have african blood( all mixed) about 20% are mostly black, but even these are mixed. I would say may be 8 to 10% are all black African. I am mostly black, I have some Taino blood from one of my grandmama's. I practise a Santero religion, which is of Yoroba origens. So it's hard to put all puerto ricans into one box. some black PR's don't relate to Africa nor of being black. but in PR if you are part white then you stop being a black person, you are then mixed.

I'm now in my fifties so I wear loose clothing and preffer woman with some size to them. things have changed alot on the island since the 60's, alot more Americanized. some good, but mostly bad. IMO.

with love and respect, Corvo

Kwango

How can we get along when black folks overhere are being misinformed about what Africans believe and value?

Like most AfroAmericans, our access and communication with Africans are limited and so we have these Afrocentric leaders who take bits and pieces of African culture from all over the continent and piece it together with New Age spiritualsim and deliver THAT to us as "African culture".

This is similar to what they did with introducing Swahili to us calling it "our" language.

They're telling black poeple that all Africans are kings and queens, women rule in Africa, everybody is vegetarian in Africa, and that those blacks who are Christian and Muslim don't really want to be...but are just brainwashed.

This is being passed off as Afrocentrism.

And like most other AfroAmericans, I believed it until I started meeting Africans in places like Canada and they set me straight.

The first thing I found out is that there are hundreds of different beliefs across the continent and it's not as simple as just knotting your hair up, wearing kente-cloth, and "calling" yourself an African.

I started meeting peope from Nigeria, the Congo, Senegal, Somalia and elsewhere and most of my romanticized view slowly faded away.

Ofcourse people are gonna get offended if they find out you're lying on them and thier culture and claiming their identity when you know little about it.

As AfroAmericans, we shouldn't get mad at Africans just because they don't fit the romanticized and false image we were given of them.

People need to be told the truth.

Only then can we begin to build.






Corvo

Peace

As a person who is both black and Puerto Rican, I suspect that you get angry about the full spectrum of your people not being properly represented on television.

When I was a kid growing up in the Midwest my only image of Puerto Ricans was "Julio" from Sandford & Son and a few other white characters.

It wasn't until I actually went to New York and saw black men and women darker than me speaking Spanish dressed in tight gear that I realized what most Puerto Ricans really look like.

I would agree, better communication is the key to our survival. I haven't lived in NYc since the late 60's. but what you saw in NY may have been Domenicanos. from the Republica Domenica. but some Ricans are very Dark.

one Love, Corvo

Ola,
puerto ricans are a very mixed people, about 30% have african blood( all mixed) about 20% are mostly black, but even these are mixed. I would say may be 8 to 10% are all black African. I am mostly black, I have some Taino blood from one of my grandmama's. I practise a Santero religion, which is of Yoroba origens. So it's hard to put all puerto ricans into one box. some black PR's don't relate to Africa nor of being black. but in PR if you are part white then you stop being a black person, you are then mixed.

I'm now in my fifties so I wear loose clothing and preffer woman with some size to them. things have changed alot on the island since the 60's, alot more Americanized. some good, but mostly bad. IMO.

with love and respect, Corvo
Thanks for your reply Brother Corvo! The fact that Puerto Rico the island is now Americanized is not strangely unfamiliar with what's happening in big cities in Congo today. Both the continentals Africans and African Latinos are being imposed multiculturalism by Western nations that gets rid of plenty African culture and ancestry. Probably race-mixing continually in Latinos community is used to do that... I am sorry if you feel my statements are blind or ignorant because I don’t know the whole history of your country, as well as a number of other Latino American countries.

Kwango

Maximum Respect

Mboté nayo (hi!) tata Ralfa’il ! You have been very helpful for my mental and emotional health. Thank you, I feel better.
All praise is do to the Creator for your well being sis...I'm glad to here it.


The heinous attitude of Simba forced me to intervene. It is very important for you to know continentals are not "hateful" people, so many of us want to build a stronger relationship with Diasporians. But there doesn’t seem to be much love for continentals, I personally don’t think Diasparian "Afrocentrism" is a bad thing, it can be good. Diasporians needs to not blind themselves to the reality of Africa and feelings of continentals that’s all. Not all continentals are “innocent,” not all of us are going to love Diasporians; it is things like this we need to deal with when we call for Panafricanism...
I know you're not hateful people but like you said, AfroAmericans need to understand that there are really black Africans who feel this way about them.
They also need to know WHY they feel this way.

I was shocked as hell when I found out how most Ethiopians and Somalis felt about black Americans. I kind of expected it from North African Arabs, but to log on to a site and read fellow black Africans calling AfroAmericans slaves and monkeys really knocked me back.


Problem is....

While most Black people in Africa stress family and ethinic loyalty as well as ancestry and will clearly see another black person as their historic enemy.

Black people in American...like most Americans...are used to dealing with others in terms of just race (sometimes color).
So most of us assume that all black people think and act like us and we should all be able to get along...even when our own behavior towards one another says different.

So when we run into people who look like us but don't share our same points of view it's hard for some of us to register this logically.









Corvo

Peace

Ola,
puerto ricans are a very mixed people, about 30% have african blood( all mixed) about 20% are mostly black, but even these are mixed. I would say may be 8 to 10% are all black African. I am mostly black, I have some Taino blood from one of my grandmama's. I practise a Santero religion, which is of Yoroba origens. So it's hard to put all puerto ricans into one box. some black PR's don't relate to Africa nor of being black. but in PR if you are part white then you stop being a black person, you are then mixed
This speaks on the different style the Spanish had from the English in their governing and racial classification system.

In English speaking countries any black ancestry automatically made you black, but in most Spanish countries any Spanish blood automatically made you Spanish.


Another good point you dropped is that not all Puerto Ricans have African ancestry.

Some of our people think ALL Puerto Ricans should call themselves black thinking they all have African ancestry; but just like in America...Latinos come in many different combinations.
Like some have no white ancestry, some have no black ancestry.

But Latin American nations still tend to be more well blended racially than America.


I would agree, better communication is the key to our survival. I haven't lived in NYc since the late 60's. but what you saw in NY may have been Domenicanos. from the Republica Domenica. but some Ricans are very Dark.
Yes, Dominicans seem to have more African ancestry than Puerto Ricans, probably because of the historic and massive influx of Haitians from next door .

Cubans and Panamanians also seem to have a stronger African presence.

but to log on to a site and read fellow black Africans calling AfroAmericans slaves and monkeys really knocked me back.
lol tata Ralfa’il! I am sorry to laugh I don’t mean any mockery. Who called you a "monkey"?? You might have imagined that. I bet Simba has been insulted a "monkey" as much as you. My point is we all have Black faces, so we all are monkeys. It’s better to laugh about it! :D

Problem is....

While most Black people in Africa stress family and ethinic loyalty as well as ancestry and will clearly see another black person as their historic enemy.

Black people in American...like most Americans...are used to dealing with others in terms of just race (sometimes color).
So most of us assume that all black people think and act like us and we should all be able to get along...even when our own behavior towards one another says different.

So when we run into people who look like us but don't share our same points of view it's hard for some of us to register this logically.
I know exactly how you feel. Yet you are a Black man with African ancestry, your clan is African American! But Africa is a key to your inheritance. You have the chance to be multi-ethnic don’t feel bad about that!!! And I do not think the majority of continentals emphasize their ethnic stock or ethnic communities. Colonialism has achieved a considerable degree of "tribalism" in Africa, so don’t get highly focused on that. Loyalty to a clan or a people is not a big deal... After Simba speech I feel you will never believe me. :(

In English speaking countries any black ancestry automatically made you black, but in most Spanish countries any Spanish blood automatically made you Spanish.

But Latin American nations still tend to be more well blended racially than America.
To be honest, I think mixed-raced Black Latinos create more relationship problems with Black/African continentals. Blacks with plenty of European ancestry don’t have to accept African cultures they are the descendants of whites too, or Tainos, Caribs or Arawaks.... it’s a difficult situation when you think about it. Or it's not tata Corvo??

Kwango

lol tata Ralfa’il! I am sorry to laugh I don’t mean any mockery. Who called you a "monkey"?? You might have imagined that. I bet Simba has been insulted a "monkey" as much as you. My point is we all have Black faces, so we all are monkeys. It’s better to laugh about it!
I'm suprised you didn't know this.
Just go to the average Somali web-site just kick back and read about what they think of other sub-Saharan Africans and AfroAmericans and read what they call us.

To many Somalis you are nothing more than a monkey or an ape that deserves slavery. That's what they've been taught from generation to generation. The more coarse featured Bantu are made slaves out of in Somalia.

Again, this proves my point that many Africans don't deal with other blacks outside of their nation or ethinic group (tribe) so they don't have a clear understanding of how others think of them.

All these problems will have to be exposed and ironed out for real black unity.




I know exactly how you feel. Yet you are a Black man with African ancestry, your clan is African American! But Africa is a key to your inheritance. You have the chance to be multi-ethnic don’t feel bad about that!!! And I do not think the majority of continentals emphasize their ethnic stock or ethnic communities, colonialism has achieved a considerable degree of “tribalism” in Africa, so don’t get highly focused on that. Loyalty to a clan is not a big deal... After Simba speech I feel you will never believe me.
I believe that you and many Africans believe this way, however MOST that I've met don't.

You are comming from a Pan-Africanist point of view but do you believe most Africans want unity with AfroAmericans and see things in terms of race and color?

Simba was a little raw about it, but I didn't need him to tell me something I've experience first hand in dealing with Nigerians, Ghanaians, Senegalese and other Africans.

The ones I've met both here, in Canada, and in Europe are stressing education and achievement in Western society....not black unity.

To be honest, you are the most pro-black African sista I've ever met!

I'm suprised you didn't know this.
Just go to the average Somali web-site just kick back and read about what they think of other sub-Saharan Africans and AfroAmericans and read what they call us.

To many Somalis you are nothing more than a monkey or an ape that deserves slavery. That's what they've been taught from generation to generation. The more coarse featured Bantu are made slaves out of in Somalia.
You are right! Is that ignoble or what? You see, they look like Arabs so they have no problem removing themselves form the rest of the continent. They segregate themselves the most, yet they tell me they make no difference in peoples in Africa.. I am ashamed to say that but I don’t relate to light skinned Blacks who look like Caucasian (Euro or Arab wannabees). I am a monkey for them anyway. lol...


Again, this proves my point that many Africans don't deal with other blacks outside of their nation or ethinic group (tribe) so they don't have a clear understanding of how others think of them.
It is true! Africans mostly like to stay in their group of people, culture and tradition. For example, Bantu Congolese think they are the best group of Africans because they sing better than others and are stylish. They say derogetory remarks about Musilm Africans, especially the Senegalese and the Sudanese...it’s just ridiculous! (sigh) We are all mentally enslaved!

You are comming from a Pan-Africanist point of view
Definetely!

but do you believe most Africans want unity with AfroAmericans and see things in terms of race and color?
No.

Simba was a little raw about it, but I didn't need him to tell me something I've experience first hand in dealing with Nigerians, Ghanaians, Senegalese and other Africans.
The ones I've met both here, in Canada, and in Europe are stressing education and achievement in Western society....not black unity.

Ouch... I am sorry!

To be honest, you are the most pro-black African sista I've ever met!
Yea, I am not proud to say that but most of my African sisters have no Black Pride! They avoid being proud, they want to keep their place. They just want to commit to a marriage, and everything will be alright.. I am clearly a bold sister, frankly and you know quite masculine, me I need to talk! Our continental sisters need to stand up too I feel lonely.

I've read the other posts and hopefully I won't miss anything.

We may not have that reputation, but trust me when I say many Africans do resent White people and vent about them and White racism as well. I don't consider myself a pan-Africanist but I will side with a diasporan Black over a White person, whether they'd side with me is another matter.

Many Africans do have naive and pan-Africanist expectations of how their relationship with Black Americans is going to be then are dissappointed when they are mistreated by them and clear many BA's don't want anything to do with them.( Do you know that during apartheid there was actually a cult in South Africa that believed a group of Black Americans was going to come rescuse them and put an end to White racist rule?) "I'll get you first" is the human mentality, nobody wants to be victimized or disrespected.

Pan Africa, you can call me a 'faker' or whatever because I don't live in the U.S but I've said the internet is another form of communication and if someone says 'this is my experiences' or someone else telles me their experiences, how do you blatantly claim I'm lying. I can't keep track of every single example, I tried to with all the experiences I've had with peckerwoods I've had at my school, it leads to obsessive compulsive thinking for me (literally) and this obsessive obligation to remember so you can have something to hold against them. In the end, as Maya Angelou said, you will forget what it was exactly that someone said or did, what you'll remember is how they made you feel. Off the top of my head, what have BA's done to Africans. Well there's

Liberia ( the wars to claim it, forced labour, excluding native Liberians from the political system) but I don't think we can hold that against the descendents of freed BA slaves who decided to stay in America.

There's 41 murdered Senegalese taxi drivers in Harlem, just as an example of where this can escalate in certain neighborhoods.

Theres the physical fights Africans get into with BA's, usually of a younger age ( teens/twenties).

There's the jokes ( may not mean much in the big picture but people are people ), there's the stereotyping ( jet Black, ugly, AIDS, mud hut and so on )

There's the superiority complex

Many BA's don't identify with Africans and make that clear ( I personally don't mind, but another Africans mentality may be like 'what, well **** you then' and theres that kind of resentment )

A lot of it can be really 'creative' and I can't think of everything off the top of my head. Why is this all about BA's vs Africans as well, what about West Indian/Latino Blacks?


Are you in Canada or the United States? and if you are in Canada, how would you know how African Americans treat other people unless you live among us.

Are you in Canada or the United States? and if you are in Canada, how would you know how African Americans treat other people unless you live among us.

If your opinion on African American is based on internet forum conversations & what other people have said...that is hearsay! It should not form the basis of someone's opinion.

reading here makes it quite clear to me why we are conquered and colonized.
what's less clear is how to reverse it.

Brother Isaiah, don’t be upset because of the hot posts of one individual. Simba is not the typical African man; it is amazing to think so. In Africa you find extremely hospitable people, especially in Congo (that’s why you have millions of Rwandans invading my country in the last 10 years). We as a people are sick, miserable, Simba was telling his experience as we all expose ours. This is the best place to learn about each other, we usually do it very well. I have actually come defensive in my early times on these boards, do you remember? Yet you care about me, it’s all I want form Black Americans… and it is true, no one has the rights to abuse you... Simba showed the worse of Black people, it is sad.

But don’t let anyone make you believe that you are not Africans and the solution of African problems. If some angry continentals prevent you form exposing your tie to the Motherland, how any of us can change our relations? Believe it or not we are dependent on each other (not on the White man!) and have grown together in oppression, sooner or later we would have to see the need for international revolution, which is going to benefit both of our people. Let’s make that happen!


Sister Kwango, thank you much for your support... I don't believe Simba represents anyone but himself... My experience has taught me that much. I've got nothing but love for African people where ever we are on the planet, and the dislike of any one person of African descent will never affect how I feel about African descended people...

Sometimes when brothers and sisters come with hatred and self-hatred, I think I want to love 'em even more, because our folk are in need of more love than most... Thank you for your words of encouragement, sister...

Peace!
Isaiah

Are you in Canada or the United States? and if you are in Canada, how would you know how African Americans treat other people unless you live among us.

Well, most people don't blatantly lie so what do you say to the Africans in the U.S who say all those things? Are they blatantly lying? The internet is just another form of communication no different if someone tells me something by phone, fax or sending pidgeons.

Well, most people don't blatantly lie so what do you say to the Africans in the U.S who say all those things? Are they blatantly lying?

If people don't blatantly lie, then I can assume those tales of African savages practicing Cannibalism, Beastiality, & Voodoo that white people have told me all these years are true!

Well, most people don't blatantly lie so what do you say to the Africans in the U.S who say all those things? Are they blatantly lying? The internet is just another form of communication no different if someone tells me something by phone, fax or sending pidgeons.

Not saying they're lying, my brother, but exaggerating in the extreme... Brother man, I live here in New York, and I've never heard anything about this... I keep my ear to the ground concerning most things about African people of all kinds - not just my tribe...

African Prince, this is the media capital of world... Do you honestly believe that information as explosive as this exists in a vacuum where only African Continentals know about, and all others don't???(smile!) Again, check your sources and their credibility. For all you know, there could be another Continental African doing the murdering... Are you saying that Continental Africans don't murder, or something????

I am going to end this discussion with you on this last post brother, because I don't think we can accomplish anything positive with this back-and-forth... Let me just say that neither yourself or Simba leaves me cold when it comes to Africans from the Continent or elsewhere... I love my folks no matter what... It is never based on my experiences with one person or the other... Blessings to you, brother...

Peace!
Isaiah

If people don't blatantly lie, then I can assume those tales of African savages practicing Cannibalism, Beastiality, & Voodoo that white people have told me all these years are true!

Pan Africa, we're talking about indivudual encounters, specific things that happened. I posted the 'My GOD' thread in pan-Africanism, there are colonial minded tribalist militias practicing cannibalism! This is certainly not an African tradition and Africans are disgusted by this, but I cannot blatantly deny these fools are doing that even though this is not an African tradition. One Liberian told me when he was in high school he would get into fights with BA's practically every day and go home depressed- is he blatantly lying. One African girl, I don't know from where, said that when she was in Canada, the West Indian( background)-Canadian girls would ask her ( insultingly ) whether she spoke the 'click click' languages and rode on elephants to school. Is she blatantly lying? We can go back and forth on whether this is common, for the two examples I just gave or the militia idiots in the north east Congo, but those particular evens have taken place, and if I can count more than 3/4 times I've heard this from more than 3/4 different people, I really don't think these are isolated incidents.

"Not saying they're lying, my brother, but exaggerating in the extreme"

Isaiah, I'm not exaggerating anything. Maybe it's true I'm in no position to argue whether this is common, that's 'subjective' depending on where you ive and what they're like I guess, but all those things I've mentioned, I got those from other Africans living in the U.S and I have no reason to believe they were blatantly lying whether they were telling me to my face, on the phone or by e-mail. When I hear this many times, more than I can count, recollect my own bad experiences with some WI's here in Canada, you see it on tv all time, I'd be naive to check all of it ( diasporan Blacks disliking and mistreating Africans ) up as isolated incidents. I defeinatly think I've heard more than 100 negative comments by BA posters or negative encounters with BA's by Africans in the last 6 years.

"Do you honestly believe that information as explosive as this exists in a vacuum where only African Continentals know about, "

If you're talking about the Senegalese cab drivers, I'm sure most Africans, at least outside of Little Senegal, don't know about that, I don't understand why you argue that I have reason to believe the author is blatantly lying for no reason whatsoever. In other words, why you can put it past it to possibly happen.

"For all you know, there could be another Continental African doing the murdering... Are you saying that Continental Africans don't murder, or something???? "

People everywhere murder. I heard of a Nigerian man somewhere in the U.S who murdered his brother or cousin or something over a store, something like that and apparently a Ghanaian female murderer in New Jersey or somewhere. I seriously don't think all 41 of those Senegalese cab drivers were murdered by other Africans. What would it mean to you if "hypothetically" BA's really did kill them or all the examples I listed of how some BA's are 'also' responsible for the African/BA rift weren't just isolated incidents.

" am going to end this discussion with you on this last post brother, because I don't think we can accomplish anything positive with this back-and-forth... Let me just say that neither yourself or Simba leaves me cold when it comes to Africans from the Continent or elsewhere... I love my folks no matter what... It is never based on my experiences with one person or the other... Blessings to you, brother"

That's good because I don't represent an entire continent of people anymore than you represent all 40 million Black Americans, I'm more comfortable speaking for myself alone this way if I mess up that goes on me and not all Africans.

PEACE AFRICAN PRINCE:

It seems that you are falling into the same stereo-type wars, that Blacks in the West are accused of.

The reality is that both sides have issues--often times against each other, but certainly amongst themselves.

Both sides (in reality, the SAME SIDE) is being played against the other, but a white-skinned culprit.

Everything Blacks in the west learn about Africans (and anyone else, for that matter), we learn from white people.

Of course the ignorance hurts, but you have to consider the source--and the source is not the people perpetuating the ignorance.

PEACE

I wasn't trying to stereotype anybody, just point out that Africans aren't solely responsible for any African/BA 'rift'

I wasn't trying to stereotype anybody, just point out that Africans aren't solely responsible for any African/BA 'rift'

I agree, but it seems that you may be inferring that Black Americans however are.

I'm not sure if you agree that neither are responsible for the rift, any more than they are responsible for many of the "tribal" disputes that each sides undergoes in their native locations.

As usual, petty disputes for both Blacks in the west as well as Africans on the homeland are exaggerated respectively and mutually, by "powers that be", for the purpose of destruction of both groups, as well as profit and furtherment of the White/western cause.

Do you agree?

I wasn't trying to stereotype anybody, just point out that Africans aren't solely responsible for any African/BA 'rift'
are so.

look, we all love Africa and Africans.
we are always trying to get a piece of fabric or anything that will connect us with "mother".
now, if you come over here into a group of people who love you and you still have problems maybe it's time to look into the mirror.

are so.

look, we all love Africa and Africans.
we are always trying to get a piece of fabric or anything that will connect us with "mother".
now, if you come over here into a group of people who love you and you still have problems maybe it's time to look into the mirror.

Not all Black Americans love Africa/Africans ( not that they're obligated to), this is a fact. The only thing we can really debate about is numbers, who's in the majority/minority, but there's no question there are many BA's who could care less about Africa and that continent could drown in the Atlantic Ocean for all they care, I know this for a fact.

Not all Black Americans love Africa/Africans.........this is a fact...............but there's no question there are many BA's who could care less about Africa and that continent could drown in the Atlantic Ocean for all they care, I know this for a fact.
let's see, you live in Canada and you know more about African Americans than i do?
OK, show me one of these African Americans that you speak of.
you say it's a fact, i say prove it then.

Not all Black Americans love Africa/Africans ( not that they're obligated to), this is a fact. The only thing we can really debate about is numbers, who's in the majority/minority, but there's no question there are many BA's who could care less about Africa and that continent could drown in the Atlantic Ocean for all they care, I know this for a fact.


this is tru...the reverse is also tru...so what's your point?

one love
khasm

Ralfa’il and kwago likema,
The history of the Spanish and slavery was very different then that of the U.S. and the English. Each of the Spanish colonies also developed it’s attitudes toward African slaves and their decedents pending on local and historical events.

The Spanish unlike the Anglo-Saxons of England, had a long history with the moors. Which where of both Arabic and black Africans. The the ruling class of Spain (Castile) were like the English, but the southern meterianian Spanish where of mixed blood and had no problems in mating with other people.

Perhaps something you may not know, is that in PR the first Africans where free blacks, who had mason, metal smiting and shipbuilding skills. At one point these free blacks (as they call them in the states) comprised of one third of the islands population, the Spanish one third and African/Taino slaves one third. The so called free blacks where wealthier then many Spanish farmers and even held African slaves. Cuba had more African slaves per capita and the Dominican Republic a greater number still. In Cuba they passed laws to forbid interracial marriage for fear of up-raisings, since black slaves out numbered the white Spanish. These events and other cultural/economic situations have made the Spanish Caribbean a very different experience for African slaves and their decedents, then that of their English counter part.




Kwago Likema when you say that black Latinos cause a problem, do you mean because many don’t identify with the Pan-African movement?

let's see, you live in Canada and you know more about African Americans than i do?
OK, show me one of these African Americans that you speak of.
you say it's a fact, i say prove it then.

No of course not but keep in mind you were the one in the other thread (what do continentals think about non tribal people or something like that)talking about "is that why Africans hate us so much" so many of the comments on this site and others how Africans one minute are such racial purists they reject BA's because of their White/NA blood and the next don't even "consider" themselves Black, how we look down on BA's because of this/that etc. and I have never seen this in my life so some of this would seriously imply these BA's are more familiar with Africans then I am. It's not fair to ask me to 'prove' it because I can't keep track of every single negative encounter ( internet or otherwise) I have with BA's, White people or whoever, that is such a nuisance and I can't walk around with that baggage ( this may sound odd but I say this because I have always tried to obsessively remember every bad experiences I've had with White people where I live actually preparing for the conversation when someone would ask me to justify my feelings about White people, and it's impractical and a burden, maybe that won't make sense to this conversation and has more to do with ocd ). Maybe neither of us are capable of examining our own people's without bias. If you meet an African in the U.S who tells you all the negative encounters he's had with BA's are you going to blatantly deny that then? Can you understand that maybe *some* Black Americans are very ignorant about Africa/Africans and treat them very harshly and cruelty and maybe *some* continentals do look down on BA's/or diasporan Blacks and are prejudiced against them? You say 'prove it' like you can seriously look me in my eyes and tell me ALL BA's love Africa/Africans or believe in pan-Africanism, absolutely NONE hold any negative views towards Africans? That's RIDICULOUS!

this is tru...the reverse is also tru...so what's your point?

one love
khasm

My point was it made no sense, considering this, to put the African/Black American 'rift' solely on Africans ALONE, especially considering blah blah blah

Kwango

You are right! Is that ignoble or what? You see, they look like Arabs so they have no problem removing themselves form the rest of the continent. They segregate themselves the most, yet they tell me they make no difference in peoples in Africa.. I am ashamed to say that but I don’t relate to light skinned Blacks who look like Caucasian (Euro or Arab wannabees). I am a monkey for them anyway. lol...
I wish one of them WOULD call me a monkey to my face...I'd show 'em mi elongated tail.



Yea, I am not proud to say that but most of my African sisters have no Black Pride! They avoid being proud, they want to keep their place. They just want to commit to a marriage, and everything will be alright.. I am clearly a bold sister, frankly and you know quite masculine, me I need to talk! Our continental sisters need to stand up too I feel lonely.
Well, now you got me sort of in a binder.

I'm kinda old fashioned and being a Muslim, I like it when women (especially black women) stress their feminine roles and values instead of adapting a militant demeanor.

On the other hand, I find it flattering and somewhat attractive to witness the fire of a sista who is passionate for standing up and fighting for the much needed unity of the black race.

Perhaps us black men need to embolding and strengthen ourselves to the point that no matter how strong a sista gets, she'll always be feminine enough.

Mark my words Kween Kwango, it's gonna be sistaz like you who help bridge the gap between the Africans and AfroAmericans.

Corvo

Peace

Ralfa’il and kwago likema,
The history of the Spanish and slavery was very different then that of the U.S. and the English. Each of the Spanish colonies also developed it’s attitudes toward African slaves and their decedents pending on local and historical events.

The Spanish unlike the Anglo-Saxons of England, had a long history with the moors. Which where of both Arabic and black Africans. The the ruling class of Spain (Castile) were like the English, but the southern meterianian Spanish where of mixed blood and had no problems in mating with other people.
Funny you should say that.

I'm reading a few books and articles that claimed that it was actually the Moors who showed the Spanish how to get to the Americas.

There was a black Moor on the Santa Maria by the name of "Estaban" I believe helping to navigate the ship.

I've heard that the great African Emperor Mansa Musa's brutha and his entourage actually came over here centuries before Columbus and had maps of the area.







African Prince

Respect

Man, don't let Sam and James sweat you hard on your image of AfroAmerica.

Some of these negroes will sit up and argue with you all day long about how you got us all wrong knowing darn well that there are some all black neighborhoods they wouldn't set foot in to save thier mamma's life.

Wouldn't be caught dead in the project late at night without their pistol ready to pop a brutha, but wanna trip on you because of what you've heard.

Why they gotta lie and carry on like that?


Nooooooo......

You you and other Africans ain't been brainwashed bro.

Ain't nobody have to trick you into believing something that you can come here and see with your own 2 eyes.

Africans come here and SEE FOR THEMSELVES that too many black folks here are arrogant, mean spirited, and spoiled.


Unlike Simba, you seem to be a pretty reasonable fellow and although I haven't followed the conversation too closely I haven't heard any outrageous stereotypes comming from you.

You're basically dead on that a hell of a lot of AfroAmerican ARE involved in violence and criminal activity and most Africans would do themselves a favor to stay the hell way from the rotten ones.

That's why I make it a duty to introduce myself as positively as possible to African immigrants and let them know all of us aren't ignorant and criminally inclined.

I think it's a hell of a lot better to tell them the truth and explain to them why many of us act the way we do, than trying to tell them something different from what they're seeing with their own eyes.

My point was it made no sense, considering this, to put the African/Black American 'rift' solely on Africans ALONE, especially considering blah blah blah

i can dig that...

one love
khasm

Tata Corvo,

Well, there are plenty of light skinned mestizos who have never accepted their African ancestry. They don’t identify as Black on the census forms, Most of them don’t do it in their own country! I think it's harder for Mixed-raced Black folks to come along when they hear Panafricanism. I have read much about racism in Latin America such as improving the race by marrying whiter partners and such. When I watch Latino TV I see mostly people of lighter skin. And, don't get me start on women. It ALWAYS the lighter women we see. If you are not extremely mixed with some other race, it seems they don't show you on TV. It's so sad. I want to go to Puerto Rico, but I might be disappointed if the majority of the Puerto Ricans are not Black people and relate to Spain or the United States.



Tata Ralfa’il,

:D Do you believe women like "me" are the solution of African American and continental African relationship problems? But in the present, continentals Sisters are not exposed to Pro-Blackness and Revolution. They are so dependent on men.. lol..it’s how you like it Brother Ralfa’il ! I think you should have a relationship with a continental Sister because they are the kind of women you like! Hell with Simba and the messed up Brothers like him, I personally don't care. Continental men often point finger at me but I still want to give love to the Diasporian community, it’s not an issue in my psyche... seriously.

It’s just that I feel a lot lonely among men in the Revolutionary parties I joined. I see them in real life talking over me, seeing no problem putting me in a closet. Sometimes I stop debating with them. A militant woman has to really impose herself. You can’t stay passive as the Brothers are making all the decision, it’s also the job of the Black woman. Please Tata Ralfa’il accept it.

Sister Kwango, thank you much for your support... I don't believe Simba represents anyone but himself... My experience has taught me that much. I've got nothing but love for African people where ever we are on the planet, and the dislike of any one person of African descent will never affect how I feel about African descended people...

Sometimes when brothers and sisters come with hatred and self-hatred, I think I want to love 'em even more, because our folk are in need of more love than most... Thank you for your words of encouragement, sister...

Peace!
Isaiah
:D :D :D

Unity in race and revolution! Much love and respect Tata Isaiah!

Kwango

Do you believe women like "me" are the solution of African American and continental African relationship problems? But in the present, continentals Sisters are not exposed to Pro-Blackness and Revolution. They are so dependent on men.. lol..it’s how you like it Brother Ralfa’il ! I think you should have a relationship with a continental Sister because they are the kind of women you like!
Of but I have, and I am.

I've dated sistaz from Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somali...

Believe it or not most of them were pretty strong willed, outspoken, and independant; but dating is one thing while marriage is another.

I believe I told you already that I kicked it with a couple of sistas from the Congo when I was in Beligium last year and we still keep in touch frequently.

I made up my mind 3 years ago that my wife is either gonna be from Africa or the West Indies....most likely Africa.

But that's a personal decision for me because I like for my wife to fit that traditional "stay at home and raise the children" mode.
I like to smell food cooking and soft powder and lotion when I get home from grinding all day.

I'm old school that way....

It doesn't mean ALL women have to fit that passive and docile mode.

Some of these negroes will sit up and argue with you all day long about how you got us all wrong knowing darn well that there are some all black neighborhoods they wouldn't set foot in to save their mamma's life................
FWIW - i was standing on the corner in the ghetto since before you were born.
there is no black neighborhood in philly that i have a problem with.
i go wherever i have business.

[QUOTE=Kwango_Likemba]Tata Corvo,

Well, there are plenty of light skinned mestizos who have never accepted their African ancestry. They don’t identify as Black on the census forms, Most of them don’t do it in their own country! I think it's harder for Mixed-raced Black folks to come along when they hear Panafricanism. I have read much about racism in Latin America such as improving the race by marrying whiter partners and such. When I watch Latino TV I see mostly people of lighter skin. And, don't get me start on women. It ALWAYS the lighter women we see. If you are not extremely mixed with some other race, it seems they don't show you on TV. It's so sad. I want to go to Puerto Rico, but I might be disappointed if the majority of the Puerto Ricans are not Black people and relate to Spain or the United States.


Yes I agree, you will probably will be disapointed. Most PR's do relate to the Spanish. That is what they have been thought to believe in. The whites do control the media as in the states. and mainstream papers all support the Euro-centric notens that predominate the Americas. The Mestizos and most Mulatos support the powers that be. they know little about Africa and can't relate to the empowerment of black people. nothing new there, Syster.

black African peoples will have to do, on our own. our struggles will meat very little support. It is, as it is

with love, corvo

There was a black Moor on the Santa Maria by the name of "Estaban" I believe helping to navigate the ship.

Yes I heard a similar story, But Estaban was not a Moor, he was from the Cape Vede islands, and a black man. He was colombus's Navigator, for both the first and second voyage. This is well known on the Canary islands as in Cape Vede islands. :donttell:

There was a black Moor on the Santa Maria by the name of "Estaban" I believe helping to navigate the ship.

Yes I heard a similar story, But Estaban was not a Moor, he was from the Cape Vede islands, and a black man. He was colombus's Navigator, for both the first and second voyage. This is well known on the Canary islands as in Cape Vede islands. :donttell:

A Moor is a Black man.

PEACE

There was a black Moor on the Santa Maria by the name of "Estaban" I believe helping to navigate the ship. He was colombus's Navigator, for both the first and second voyage. This is well known on the Canary islands as in Cape Vede islands. :donttell:

I believe his name was Pedro Alonzo Nino.

That statement I made about a black Moor who helped show Columbus the way over here seems to be getting bounced around and attached to differnt people. First Kwango, then Corvo...

Just for the record: I'm the one who initiated that statement!

A Moor is a Black man.

PEACE

the moors were not of the so called black race. this is a misconception amoung some Afro-centric persons. Moors was a general term the spanish used for Muslums. there were blacks amoung the moors, but the Moroccons where a mixe of Arabs and black Africans.

the moors were not of the so called black race. this is a misconception amoung some Afro-centric persons. Moors was a general term the spanish used for Muslums. there were blacks amoung the moors, but the Moroccons where a mixe of Arabs and black Africans.


The word Moreno refers to a black person, it comes from the word moor, or more precisely blackamoor

The word Moreno refers to a black person, it comes from the word moor, or more precisely blackamoor

Yes moreno means a dark person, it's a newer term. but it is now used for black people, in order not to be offesive. but the moors still where not black-Africans. terms change meaning over time, just as we use differing terms in the last 100 years to discribe ourselfs. negros, nigros, blacks, African-Americans..ect.

Yes moreno means a dark person, it's a newer term. but it is now used for black people, in order not to be offesive. but the moors still where not black-Africans. terms change meaning over time, just as we use differing terms in the last 100 years to discribe ourselfs. negros, nigros, blacks, African-Americans..ect.


The moors were black and afro-arab, just like many modern Sudanese. Morocco and Mauritania are in Africa, not asia.

A question of Identity

Here you go Corvo

http://www.spaincostaluz.com/moors.htm

A question of Identity

Here you go Corvo

http://www.spaincostaluz.com/moors.htm

Here I found the source of the miss-use of the word moor, As is often the case the English have a poor or Arrogant perspective of cultural reality.
After the Maghreb came under Muslim rule, the term Moors was transferred in European usage to refer to any non-Christian inhabitants of the area; and after North African Muslims conquered Spain, it came to refer equally to Muslims in Spain. While in Europe, Moors were synonomous with an African because many were clearly (black!) Africans or mixtures of them and others from historic waves of invasions from the past. North Africans are dark because they are African and a "mulattoized" (mixed with white, but not directly half) people collectivly known today as Arabs (a non-racial group) and Berbers (a non-racial group commoningly led to make people think of them as white, but they are black with race mixes from Africa and Europe. The "white" ones are rare and are just what one would recognize as light-skinned blacks in America and many are from European slave populations from the Muslim imerial period of the Middle Ages.) Islam and so-called Muslim names have made the distinction of these and many other Muslim peoples quite confusing to many people studying the topic.
"Moor" eventually came to be applied indiscriminately by English speakers to blacks, Muslims, Saracens, Persians, or Indians. Shakespeare's Othello was "the Moor of Venice". During the 17th century, Africans were sometimes distinguished from others as blackamoors. As Iberia was ruled by Muslims, even the European Muslims became known as Moors because of their religion. This is why many people become confused about the Moors because since they were Muslims and from North Africa, people tend to think of them as Arabs or Berbers and a conventional African(known as black) does not come to mind. Most African who were taken as slaves to the new world werenot from Muslim North Africa and were not what one would call Moors. The Portuguese in their search for slaves had gone to Africa outside or "underneath" the Muslim controlled North Africa, so that these pagan Africans were not considered Moors, but just blacks(non-Muslim). However, the word Moor has always been one and the same as an African (black) or one of its mixes. There are clearly black people in North Africa and the Middle-East as far as Iran. They are common.
In Spanish usage, "Moro" (Moor) came to have an even broader usage, to mean "Muslims" in general (just as "Rumi", "from the Eastern Roman Empire", came to mean "Christian" in many Arabic dialects); thus the Moros of Mindanao in the Philippines, and the Moriscos of Granada. Moro is also used to describe all things dark as in "Moor", "moreno" and it has led to many European sir names such as "Moore", "De Muaro", and so on.
Until the early twentieth century, "Moor" was often used by Western geographers to refer to "mixed" Arab-Berber North Africans, especially of the towns, as distinct from supposedly more pure-blooded Arabs and Berbers; thus the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica defines "Moor" as "the name which, as at present used, is loosely applied to any native of Morocco, but in its stricter sense only to the townsmen of mixed descent. In this sense it is also used of the Mahommedan townsmen in the other Barbary states." But even then, it recognized that "the term Moors has no real ethnological value."
Every label has an origin and a reason for that label. Moor is no exception. There is a reason why they were not called so-called Arabs or Turks. That is because they were not those peoples. Most were of clear African (black) stock and they had European and African slaves.
And since it was the Spanish that coined the term, then it is the Spanish version that is more correct (my bias), and as always the English get things wrong.
Definition: A name usually used to describe someone of dark color, from "mora," meaning blackberry. Common in Santander, La Rioja, Aragón, Castile, Extremadura and Andalusia according to the Instituto Genealógico e Histórico Latino-Americano. Brown is the English version of this surname, Le Brun is French, and Marrone is Italian.
Surname Origin: Spanish Alternate Surname Spellings: MORENOS.

Here too the translation has been corrupted, Dark is not the same as Black. And because we (Spanish speakers) use it affectionately, some clown translated it as blackamoor. I looked up your website posted it did make some assumtions. search berbers DNA.

peace out, Corvo :flowers:

Corvo

Altough I usually don't agree with Sek on anything, I'm gonna have to agree with him on this one atleast in theory.

The word Moor was used to describe what is known today as "negroes" or black people who were nomadic peoples from North Africa separate from the lighter skinned Berbers.

Although the Moors weren't all black and came in different shades, they were still of the black race and were looked at separately from the brown Arabs and white Berbers.

Now it's hard to separate and distinguish one from the other because there's been so much admixture.

But there were 3 distinct groups of Muslims who entered and conqured Europe.

The Moors, the Arabs, and the Berbers.


Bro, did you know that Spanish itself is a hyrid of Latin and Arabic?

Corvo

Altough I usually don't agree with Sek on anything, I'm gonna have to agree with him on this one atleast in theory.

The word Moor was used to describe what is known today as "negroes" or black people who were nomadic peoples from North Africa separate from the lighter skinned Berbers.

Although the Moors weren't all black and came in different shades, they were still of the black race and were looked at separately from the brown Arabs and white Berbers.

Now it's hard to separate and distinguish one from the other because there's been so much admixture.

But there were 3 distinct groups of Muslims who entered and conqured Europe.

The Moors, the Arabs, and the Berbers.


Bro, did you know that Spanish itself is a hyrid of Latin and Arabic?

I agree with both SEK and RALF here.

PEACE

Appendix 14: The Mixed Racial Origins of the Moors

WHO WERE THE MOORS?

“Moor” - Encyclopædia Britannica

“Moor - in English usage, a Moroccan or, formerly, a member of the Muslim population of Spain, of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Berber origins, who created the Arab Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in North Africa between the 11th and 17th centuries. By extension (corresponding to the Spanish moro), the term occasionally denotes any Muslim in general, as in the case of the Moors of Sri Lanka (Ceylon) or of the Philippines.

The word derives from the Latin Mauri, first used by the Romans to denote the inhabitants of the Roman province of Mauretania, comprising the western portion of modern Algeria and the northeastern portion of modern Morocco. Modern Mauritanians are also sometimes referred to as Moors (as with the French maure); the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, however, lies in the large Saharan area between Morocco and the republics of Senegal and Mali.”

- "Moor" Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica Online.

http://search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=54958


MIXED RACE ORIGINS : SEMITIC, AFRICAN AND BERBER

When the Arab armies swept across Northern Africa in the 7th Century AD, they found in the north-western corner of that continent the Berbers, an ancient grouping of part White origin (indeed, to this day, red hair is not unknown amongst the Berbers).

The Berbers were converted to Islam after a sharp struggle at the beginning of the 8th Century.

“Then Berbers and Arabs then joined in invading and conquering Spain, as a mixed race sprang up called the Moors.”

- Waverly’s ‘New Book of Knowledge’, Waverly Book Company, Faringdon Street, London, E.C,4, 1936. Volume six page 2800


GENETIC COMPOSITION

A recent genetic study of genetic influences in Iberia, contained the following remarks on the racial make-up of North Africa at the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain and Portugal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12627534&dopt=Abstract


Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es

As expected, sub-Saharan African influence, represented by baplotypes classified in L and Ml clusters, is important in northwest Africa (26.1%) but negligible in Europe, with the exception of south Portugal (11.7%).

On the other hand, subhaplogroup U6, of North African origin (Rando et al., 1998), has a local presence in Europe, being detected only in northwest lberian Peninsula. The differential geographic distributions of these sub-Saharan African and northwest African haplogroups in the Iberian Peninsula are statistically significant: L and Ml clusters are more abundant in south Portugal (x = 9.81; P < 0.01), and U6 in northern areas (x = 5.83; P < 0.05).

With respect to northwest Africa, the geographically localized distribution of matches and haplotypes of sub-Saharan African and northwest African origin in the Iberian Peninsula is noteworthy. This distribution cannot be totally explained by a historic genetic influence from the Moslem occupation (Pereira et. al., 2000). During that time, the haplotype composition of northwest Africa had to be similar to that of the present, and for this reason, sub-Saharan African L and northwest African U6 haplotypes should be uniformly distributed in the Iberian peninsula.

Our results are in agreement with the gene flow (19.5%) from northwest Africa to the Iberian Peninsula estimated in a recent study of variation in the autosomic CD4 locus (Flores et al., 2000b), and with the evidence of northwest African African male input in Iberia calculated at around 20%, using the relative frequency of northwest African Y-chromosome-specific markers in Iberian samples (Flores et al, 2000a).

Furthermore, our results clearly reinforce, extend, and clarify the preliminary clues of an important mtDNA contribution from northwest Africa into the Iberian Peninsula (Côrte-Real et al., 1996; Rando et al., 1998; Flores et al., 2000a; Rocha et al., 1999). On the basis of the Lib frequencies detected in Spanish and Portuguese samples (2—3%) and those found in western Africa (10-30%), a significant influence (at least 10%) of North Africans in have reached the Iberian Peninsula gene pool has also been admitted (Rocha et al., 1999).

In a similar way, and discarding possible genetic drift effects, our own data allow us to make minimal estimates of the maternal African pre Neolithic, and/or recent slave trade input into Iberia. For the former, we consider only the mean value of the U6 frequency in northern African populations, excluding Saharans, Tuareg, and Mauritanians (16%), as the pre-Neolithic frequency in that area, and the present frequency in the whole Iberian Peninsula (2.3%) as the result of the northwest African gene flow at that time.

The value obtained (14%) could be as high as 35% using the data of Côrte-Real et al. (1996), or 27% with our north Portugal sample.

In the same vein, the Saharan Neolithic gene flow can be estimated as 13%, taking the actual frequencies for the sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in southern northwest African samples (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians) as the frequency of the African Neolithic, and that of the Iberian Peninsula (6.8%) as the result of the putative Neolithic maternal gene flow. This value could rise to 23% when only south Portugal is taken into account.

Full PDF copy of this article available here.


I hope this helps a little. It is always interesting to search for what has happened.

with love and respect, Corvo

Appendix 14: The Mixed Racial Origins of the Moors

WHO WERE THE MOORS?

“Moor” - Encyclopædia Britannica

“Moor - in English usage, a Moroccan or, formerly, a member of the Muslim population of Spain, of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Berber origins, who created the Arab Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in North Africa between the 11th and 17th centuries. By extension (corresponding to the Spanish moro), the term occasionally denotes any Muslim in general, as in the case of the Moors of Sri Lanka (Ceylon) or of the Philippines.

The word derives from the Latin Mauri, first used by the Romans to denote the inhabitants of the Roman province of Mauretania, comprising the western portion of modern Algeria and the northeastern portion of modern Morocco. Modern Mauritanians are also sometimes referred to as Moors (as with the French maure); the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, however, lies in the large Saharan area between Morocco and the republics of Senegal and Mali.”

- "Moor" Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica Online.

http://search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=54958


MIXED RACE ORIGINS : SEMITIC, AFRICAN AND BERBER

When the Arab armies swept across Northern Africa in the 7th Century AD, they found in the north-western corner of that continent the Berbers, an ancient grouping of part White origin (indeed, to this day, red hair is not unknown amongst the Berbers).

The Berbers were converted to Islam after a sharp struggle at the beginning of the 8th Century.

“Then Berbers and Arabs then joined in invading and conquering Spain, as a mixed race sprang up called the Moors.”

- Waverly’s ‘New Book of Knowledge’, Waverly Book Company, Faringdon Street, London, E.C,4, 1936. Volume six page 2800


GENETIC COMPOSITION

A recent genetic study of genetic influences in Iberia, contained the following remarks on the racial make-up of North Africa at the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain and Portugal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12627534&dopt=Abstract


Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es

As expected, sub-Saharan African influence, represented by baplotypes classified in L and Ml clusters, is important in northwest Africa (26.1%) but negligible in Europe, with the exception of south Portugal (11.7%).

On the other hand, subhaplogroup U6, of North African origin (Rando et al., 1998), has a local presence in Europe, being detected only in northwest lberian Peninsula. The differential geographic distributions of these sub-Saharan African and northwest African haplogroups in the Iberian Peninsula are statistically significant: L and Ml clusters are more abundant in south Portugal (x = 9.81; P < 0.01), and U6 in northern areas (x = 5.83; P < 0.05).

With respect to northwest Africa, the geographically localized distribution of matches and haplotypes of sub-Saharan African and northwest African origin in the Iberian Peninsula is noteworthy. This distribution cannot be totally explained by a historic genetic influence from the Moslem occupation (Pereira et. al., 2000). During that time, the haplotype composition of northwest Africa had to be similar to that of the present, and for this reason, sub-Saharan African L and northwest African U6 haplotypes should be uniformly distributed in the Iberian peninsula.

Our results are in agreement with the gene flow (19.5%) from northwest Africa to the Iberian Peninsula estimated in a recent study of variation in the autosomic CD4 locus (Flores et al., 2000b), and with the evidence of northwest African African male input in Iberia calculated at around 20%, using the relative frequency of northwest African Y-chromosome-specific markers in Iberian samples (Flores et al, 2000a).

Furthermore, our results clearly reinforce, extend, and clarify the preliminary clues of an important mtDNA contribution from northwest Africa into the Iberian Peninsula (Côrte-Real et al., 1996; Rando et al., 1998; Flores et al., 2000a; Rocha et al., 1999). On the basis of the Lib frequencies detected in Spanish and Portuguese samples (2—3%) and those found in western Africa (10-30%), a significant influence (at least 10%) of North Africans in have reached the Iberian Peninsula gene pool has also been admitted (Rocha et al., 1999).

In a similar way, and discarding possible genetic drift effects, our own data allow us to make minimal estimates of the maternal African pre Neolithic, and/or recent slave trade input into Iberia. For the former, we consider only the mean value of the U6 frequency in northern African populations, excluding Saharans, Tuareg, and Mauritanians (16%), as the pre-Neolithic frequency in that area, and the present frequency in the whole Iberian Peninsula (2.3%) as the result of the northwest African gene flow at that time.

The value obtained (14%) could be as high as 35% using the data of Côrte-Real et al. (1996), or 27% with our north Portugal sample.

In the same vein, the Saharan Neolithic gene flow can be estimated as 13%, taking the actual frequencies for the sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in southern northwest African samples (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians) as the frequency of the African Neolithic, and that of the Iberian Peninsula (6.8%) as the result of the putative Neolithic maternal gene flow. This value could rise to 23% when only south Portugal is taken into account.

Full PDF copy of this article available here.


I hope this helps a little. It is always interesting to search for what has happened.

with love and respect, Corvo

This is all well and Good, but this does not prove that the vast majority of them were black, let's not be fooled by semantics here.

MIXED RACE ORIGINS : SEMITIC, AFRICAN AND BERBER

When the Arab armies swept across Northern Africa in the 7th Century AD, they found in the north-western corner of that continent the Berbers, an ancient grouping of part White origin (indeed, to this day, red hair is not unknown amongst the Berbers).


This is more of the ambiguity of Western Academia.

What is the "part White origin" that they speak of? And what was the other aspect of their origin, since they are only "part white?

Also, how is "ancient" determined? The context of this exerpt is grammatically misleading, in that it infers that the 7TH Century Arabs made the distinction of how "ancient" these peoples were at the time.

Further, how does Blackness indigenously exsist and thrive on all sides, around these "part white" people, yet this abberation continues to sustain itself in a climate that is all but inhospitable to such a genetic trait?

This is why I asked in the WHITE AFRICANS thread, about these Berbers in regards to what era they would have originated from....

The only response I got was "thousands of years", but it was never specified HOW MANY thousands.

I am willing to give them 2 to 3 thousand (BCE) at best; otherwise, it's nearly impossible to pinpoint them past the mesolithic era--especially when classical Caucasians (in their current Sapien form) were not even "on the map" during that time.

Furthermore, genetics is not the only aspect that must be scrutinized, when searching for the origins of a people.

Linguistics is also a very important factor to be considered, since most people do not develop in any level, without a language that develops along with them.

Thus we find here:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/berber.html

The "Berber" script has a very interesting story behind it. Ancient Berber is thought to have sprung off the Punic script roughly around the 6th century BC. It was used throughout North Africa until the 3rd century AD. Strangely though, the inscriptions remain unread, as linguists cannot link the written language to any of the dozen modern Berber languages spoken in North Africa. However, it is widely accepted by scholars that it was a Berber language given the continuity of the population.

Ancient Berber disappeared after the 3rd century AD, first supplanted by the Roman alphabet, and then later by the Arabic alphabet brought by Islam. But by some strange miracle, it is preserved, and still used today mainly by women in Tuareg society. The modern form is called Tifinagh, which scholars believe to mean "Phoenician/Punic letters". Tifinagh is not used widely for literature or history, but instead for recreation (like for composing letters).


Thus, we begin to take notice to the cultural bread crumbs, which points to my theory of the BERBER presence being a mix of Black TUAREG peoples, with the pre-Roman Europeans.

PEACE

This is all well and Good, but this does not prove that the vast majority of them were black, let's not be fooled by semantics here.

Exactly, this is what I've been trying to inform you off. That moors does not not mean black, and that the moors where not primeraly black Africans. That the word moors comes from the Spanish word Moros and that it means Muslims. and that the moros where a mixer of Arabs, black africans and Berbers of that time(what ever mix they were then).

I grew up with Spanish as my language and primery culture. Negro means black, moreno means dark. moro means muslim. the Spanish know first hand that the moors were black Africans, berbers and Arabs. its not some comspiracy. the moors where of all three and mixed amoung them, period.

I wish the it was an all black African invation of spaiin, but that would have been a fantasy. We Africans of the Diaspora have to be correct on how we portray history. We should not make up a history that did not occure. other wise no one will take us seriously, including ourselfs.

This is more of the ambiguity of Western Academia.

What is the "part White origin" that they speak of? And what was the other aspect of their origin, since they are only "part white?

Also, how is "ancient" determined? The context of this exerpt is grammatically misleading, in that it infers that the 7TH Century Arabs made the distinction of how "ancient" these peoples were at the time.

Further, how does Blackness indigenously exsist and thrive on all sides, around these "part white" people, yet this abberation continues to sustain itself in a climate that is all but inhospitable to such a genetic trait?

This is why I asked in the WHITE AFRICANS thread, about these Berbers in regards to what era they would have originated from....

The only response I got was "thousands of years", but it was never specified HOW MANY thousands.

I am willing to give them 2 to 3 thousand (BCE) at best; otherwise, it's nearly impossible to pinpoint them past the mesolithic era--especially when classical Caucasians (in their current Sapien form) were not even "on the map" during that time.

Furthermore, genetics is not the only aspect that must be scrutinized, when searching for the origins of a people.

Linguistics is also a very important factor to be considered, since most people do not develop in any level, without a language that develops along with them.

Thus we find here:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/berber.html

The "Berber" script has a very interesting story behind it. Ancient Berber is thought to have sprung off the Punic script roughly around the 6th century BC. It was used throughout North Africa until the 3rd century AD. Strangely though, the inscriptions remain unread, as linguists cannot link the written language to any of the dozen modern Berber languages spoken in North Africa. However, it is widely accepted by scholars that it was a Berber language given the continuity of the population.

Ancient Berber disappeared after the 3rd century AD, first supplanted by the Roman alphabet, and then later by the Arabic alphabet brought by Islam. But by some strange miracle, it is preserved, and still used today mainly by women in Tuareg society. The modern form is called Tifinagh, which scholars believe to mean "Phoenician/Punic letters". Tifinagh is not used widely for literature or history, but instead for recreation (like for composing letters).


Thus, we begin to take notice to the cultural bread crumbs, which points to my theory of the BERBER presence being a mix of Black TUAREG peoples, with the pre-Roman Europeans.

PEACE

I agree, it is important to read carefully the different stories and analize all the information and who their sourses are. what is part white? what is part Black, Arab or mixed?. Are a mixed people a new race? Are African-Americans a race and are African-Latinos a different race? even if we look like black-Aficans.

African Immigrant here. First let me say, I am happy to find this forum. I have been searching for forums where black people meet. The subject of this palpable tension between Africans and African Americans is an issue that is even being discussed in online forums for african immigrants in america. It seems that both sides feel that the other side harbors a resentment. What I can actually say is that most likely the culprits will not be found on this forum or the african immigrant forums. Self hating negroes are what they are. I alos find that the africans who harbor resentment seem to be those who came here as children or teenagers. We all know children can be nasty to africans, just like how they treat fat people. I have been fielding questions on one of the forums for african immigrants so as to do enough research that will aid in my drive to tackle this problem.

African Immigrant here. First let me say, I am happy to find this forum. I have been searching for forums where black people meet. The subject of this palpable tension between Africans and African Americans is an issue that is even being discussed in online forums for african immigrants in america. It seems that both sides feel that the other side harbors a resentment. What I can actually say is that most likely the culprits will not be found on this forum or the african immigrant forums. Self hating negroes are what they are. I alos find that the africans who harbor resentment seem to be those who came here as children or teenagers. We all know children can be nasty to africans, just like how they treat fat people. I have been fielding questions on one of the forums for african immigrants so as to do enough research that will aid in my drive to tackle this problem.

Great perspective, welcome to Destee.com Militant!

Great perspective, welcome to Destee.com Militant!

Thanks. I hope to connect with as many people as possible.

African Immigrant here. First let me say, I am happy to find this forum. I have been searching for forums where black people meet. The subject of this palpable tension between Africans and African Americans is an issue that is even being discussed in online forums for african immigrants in america. It seems that both sides feel that the other side harbors a resentment. What I can actually say is that most likely the culprits will not be found on this forum or the african immigrant forums. Self hating negroes are what they are. I alos find that the africans who harbor resentment seem to be those who came here as children or teenagers. We all know children can be nasty to africans, just like how they treat fat people. I have been fielding questions on one of the forums for african immigrants so as to do enough research that will aid in my drive to tackle this problem.
Mbote (hi) !
What part of the Motherland you come from? What is your ethnicity or identity as an African? I ask you these questions to know you better.
As for me, I am a Congolese woman form DR Congo, born and raised in the North Kivu Province, in Goma. I am Luba.

So militant who are you?

So militant who are you?
Sorry, I did not answer you earlier. I am a Half-Fon, Half-Yoruba man from Benin. Forgive me for asking, but are you the type of person concerned about ethnicity?

are you the type of person concerned about ethnicity?
Yes.

Thank you for your response.

Yes.

Thank you for your response.

Oookaaaay. But atleast you were honest. I dont place emphasis on ethnicity, you know. Mine is first overcome the common enemy, then we can split the spoils 50 ways later, thats if ethnicity still matters to us by then.

Oookaaaay. But atleast you were honest. I dont place emphasis on ethnicity, you know. Mine is first overcome the common enemy, then we can split the spoils 50 ways later, thats if ethnicity still matters to us by then.

Militant, are you a Continental African, brother??? You know one doesn't have to CONCERNED with ethnicity to simply state their ethnicity... Respect your choice, but simple question, simple answer...(smile!) For example, I am an African American... No biggie...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Militant, are you a Continental African, brother??? You know one doesn't have to CONCERNED with ethnicity to simply state their ethnicity... Respect your choice, but simple question, simple answer...(smile!) For example, I am an African American... No biggie...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

No Biggie....Just trying to get a sister feeling all guilty :donttell:
Hehehe...Nah, its really coz that question has quite a history. The Question "Are you Continental African?" is full of personal stories...kind of opens a can of worms. This is not the first time I have been asked that question. I started to know something was up when the people in AFRICA started asking me that!!!!!!!!!! I have been to many places in africa and whereever I was, classmates, people in the shops, security guards, and even foreign Europeans either asked me that question, or told me they had assumed I was not continental african in the first place!! I think the most embarrasing in moment africa was when a friend brought to my attention the fact some people were pressing him to ask me where I was really from. But I dont care, coz I use the words of a fellow continental African who had some disbelief on his face when I told him I was continental african. He said "But we are all one black people whereever you are from".

Oookaaaay. But atleast you were honest. I dont place emphasis on ethnicity, you know. Mine is first overcome the common enemy, then we can split the spoils 50 ways later, thats if ethnicity still matters to us by then.
In my opinion, if you don’t see the importance of your ethnicity you probably consider your roots insignificant, or you are ignorant of your own legacy. Your ethnicity group is your cultural and historical construct. In order to understand yourself, you must look into your culture and social history rather than your 'racial' evolution.

I am proud of my ethnic identity because the Luba people have a long and complex history. We had a long artistic tradition and political powers until the 20 th Century. The Luba culture is my biological inheritance and culture. It determines who I am, it’s very simple.

In my opinion, if you don’t see the importance of your ethnicity you probably consider your roots insignificant, or you are ignorant of your own legacy. Your ethnicity group is your cultural and historical construct. In order to understand yourself, you must look into your culture and social history rather than your 'racial' evolution.

I am proud of my ethnic identity because the Luba people have a long and complex history. We had a long artistic tradition and political powers until the 20 th Century. The Luba culture is my biological inheritance and culture. It determines who I am, it’s very simple.

I respect your pride in your ethnicity. I pride in mine too. Being half yoruba, the Yoruba nation world wide is a 100 million strong nation when considering Africa and the people from all over the world, including descendants in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Brazil. There is even a yourba village called Oyotunji in South Carolina. The Yoruba Nation are mixed with descendants from ancient Egypt, and the blacks found in West Africa. One of the evidence for this is the fact that Orisha as used in Yoruba is seen as the corruption of Orisis, both standing for god. So I know my ethnicity.

But here is my take, a similar question was asked on stormfront about how important the white nationalists take ethnicity. The poll showed a large majority answered white is white is white. Lesson? They have a goal, even though it is sinister, and they understand that some things have to take a back seat to reach the goal. I believe that the moment you start placing importance on ethnicity and ask for or see ethnicity, you leave the door opened to being exploited like the divisions that were created among the slaves in the West Indies, when they divided them into Mandigo, and Akan, and Yoruva, and so forth.

Please, I respect your thoughts and believe the Lubas are a great people, but let us move on to more important issues of our community. :toast:

I respect your pride in your ethnicity. I pride in mine too. Being half yoruba, the Yoruba nation world wide is a 100 million strong nation when considering Africa and the people from all over the world, including descendants in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Brazil. There is even a yourba village called Oyotunji in South Carolina. The Yoruba Nation are mixed with descendants from ancient Egypt, and the blacks found in West Africa. One of the evidence for this is the fact that Orisha as used in Yoruba is seen as the corruption of Orisis, both standing for god. So I know my ethnicity.

But here is my take, a similar question was asked on stormfront about how important the white nationalists take ethnicity. The poll showed a large majority answered white is white is white. Lesson? They have a goal, even though it is sinister, and they understand that some things have to take a back seat to reach the goal. I believe that the moment you start placing importance on ethnicity and ask for or see ethnicity, you leave the door opened to being exploited like the divisions that were created among the slaves in the West Indies, when they divided them into Mandigo, and Akan, and Yoruva, and so forth.

Please, I respect your thoughts and believe the Lubas are a great people, but let us move on to more important issues of our community. :toast:
As you probably don’t know what’s going on in my country I let you fantasize as much as you want.

As you probably don’t know what’s going on in my country I let you fantasize as much as you want.

:uhoh: Seems I need abit of education. You lost me there a bit. Enlighten, my sister.

I respect your pride in your ethnicity. I pride in mine too. Being half yoruba, the Yoruba nation world wide is a 100 million strong nation when considering Africa and the people from all over the world, including descendants in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Brazil. There is even a yourba village called Oyotunji in South Carolina. The Yoruba Nation are mixed with descendants from ancient Egypt, and the blacks found in West Africa. One of the evidence for this is the fact that Orisha as used in Yoruba is seen as the corruption of Orisis, both standing for god. So I know my ethnicity.

But here is my take, a similar question was asked on stormfront about how important the white nationalists take ethnicity. The poll showed a large majority answered white is white is white. Lesson? They have a goal, even though it is sinister, and they understand that some things have to take a back seat to reach the goal. I believe that the moment you start placing importance on ethnicity and ask for or see ethnicity, you leave the door opened to being exploited like the divisions that were created among the slaves in the West Indies, when they divided them into Mandigo, and Akan, and Yoruva, and so forth.

Please, I respect your thoughts and believe the Lubas are a great people, but let us move on to more important issues of our community. :toast:

Brother Militant, respect what you've said here... It is sufficient for me - though it was not necessary... You made yourself, clear, and that is to be praised...

Sister Kwango, respectfully, I must ask you, that since ethnicity is so important, where does that leave Militant and Myself in the Luba struggle since neither of us are of Luba ethnicity??? Should the Luba struggle remain important to us, as he is Yoruba and I am an american???

Peace!
Isaiah

Isaiah, I have already spoken about that in this thread called "RACE" FIRST OR ETHNIC AFFILIATION FIRST??? http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34830

It’s shameful of you guys to give me bad intentions!

The majority of Africans and Africans in the Diaspora I speak are not living in a SURVIVAL mode, so you cannot understand my mentality. I don't care what you think, it's the truth.
I stop talking about the Congo with people like you, I know you don't care.

:uhoh: Seems I need abit of education. You lost me there a bit. Enlighten, my sister.
Many Africans around the world talk so much about the struggle, Black people, white people, racism etc... BUT WHO KNOWS ABOUT THE MASSACRES AND GENOCIDES OF CONGOLESE PEOPLE UNDER PRETEXT OF THE TUTSI GENOCIDE. If you don’t know that, then sorry you are disqualified by me and those like you, because there is SO MUCH in Africa you don’t know about!!!

If you care about our people WHY you don’t know the kind of conflict in my country which cause human relations to be completely destroyed by the forces similar to what we see today in action in Iraq. You know about Iraq because they did put it on television for years.

We live in a world where people are only concerned by their problems, that is fine. Personally I find it RIDICULOUS for you to tell me to SIMPLY THINK AFRICAN when MILLIONS of people in my country are being killed and suffer the worst exploitation and human rights abuses since Tutsi Rwandans, Ugandans and Burundians invaded my country, in 1991 and never left!

Yes, I am becoming more and more Nationalist. Can you tell me who will not since the International Community doesn’t care about the DR Congo? So, it's LOGICAL for me to be proud of my COUNTRY and my ETHNIC background! The solidarity of Congolese Nationalists it’s all I have left!

Why I always have to teach about the Congo? So many years of genocides and abuses, militant you have all these years to 'learn' form!

Isaiah, I know what you think of me. You see me a whiner for the most part! My reason for posting here is less and less clear to me either, and it seems I can never stop talking about my problems and my country.. Maybe I need to leave this website alone. I bother everybody.

Many Africans around the world talk so much about the struggle, Black people, white people, racism etc... BUT WHO KNOWS ABOUT THE MASSACRES AND GENOCIDES OF CONGOLESE PEOPLE UNDER PRETEXT OF THE TUTSI GENOCIDE. If you don’t know that, then sorry you are disqualified by me and those like you, because there is SO MUCH in Africa you don’t know about!!!

If you care about our people WHY you don’t know the kind of conflict in my country which cause human relations to be completely destroyed by the forces similar to what we see today in action in Iraq. You know about Iraq because they did put it on television for years.

We live in a world where people are only concerned by their problems, that is fine. Personally I find it RIDICULOUS for you to tell me to SIMPLY THINK AFRICAN when MILLIONS of people in my country are being killed and suffer the worst exploitation and human rights abuses since Tutsi Rwandans, Ugandans and Burundians invaded my country, in 1991 and never left!

Yes, I am becoming more and more Nationalist. Can you tell me who will not since the International Community doesn’t care about the DR Congo? So, it's LOGICAL for me to be proud of my COUNTRY and my ETHNIC background! The solidarity of Congolese Nationalists it’s all I have left!

Why I always have to teach about the Congo? So many years of genocides and abuses, militant you have all these years to 'learn' form!

Isaiah, I know what you think of me. You see me a whiner for the most part! My reason for posting here is less and less clear to me either, and it seems I can never stop talking about my problems and my country.. Maybe I need to leave this website alone. I bother everybody.

I will lie by saying I feel how you feel right now, coz I am not in your shoes, but I do understand how you feel. May be my question passed of as ignorant, but now that you told me, I do know being the story Congo with the Tutsi war-criminals. Its a pity that such happenings do not get covered by the world media, given that even western countries got themselves soaked knee high because of strategic interests in Congolese Minerals. I have always said Pan-Africanism has gotten more complex recently. Gone are the days Patrice Lumuba, Kwame Nkrumah of fifties and sixties when there was a sense of African Nationalism amongst the Africans.

Thank you Militant, I see you are more informed than most.. I suggest you take the time to seriously pay attention to what’s going on in the DR Congo. And a word of advice don’t lecture victimized Africans like the people of Congo, Rwanda, or Ivory Coast about "African unity." We must face the facts that Black Africans must clean up their acts before they face Whites.

"Isaiah, I know what you think of me. You see me a whiner for the most part! My reason for posting here is less and less clear to me either, and it seems I can never stop talking about my problems and my country.. Maybe I need to leave this website alone. I bother everybody."

Sister Kwango, I don't know how on earth you draw your conclusions, but I wont argue the point... I'm out of this discussion...

Peace!
Isaiah

Hello everyone. I am in need of some good old fashion help. I have to facilitate a class about African family values and I am looking for some good material on African family structures and beliefs. It can be either book, video, or website information, as long as it is creditable information. Her is what I have to work with:

"The middle passage was the dangerous voyage from Africa to the Americas. From the emotional and physical torments of slavery to the forced separation of spouses and families, life as we knew it would never be the same. This session will explore the single and married values of our ancestors before the middle passage and how some of our values have evolved both positively and negatively since we have become Americanized."

Can someone please assist?

Many Africans around the world talk so much about the struggle, Black people, white people, racism etc... BUT WHO KNOWS ABOUT THE MASSACRES AND GENOCIDES OF CONGOLESE PEOPLE UNDER PRETEXT OF THE TUTSI GENOCIDE. If you don’t know that, then sorry you are disqualified by me and those like you, because there is SO MUCH in Africa you don’t know about!!!

If you care about our people WHY you don’t know the kind of conflict in my country which cause human relations to be completely destroyed by the forces similar to what we see today in action in Iraq. You know about Iraq because they did put it on television for years.

We live in a world where people are only concerned by their problems, that is fine. Personally I find it RIDICULOUS for you to tell me to SIMPLY THINK AFRICAN when MILLIONS of people in my country are being killed and suffer the worst exploitation and human rights abuses since Tutsi Rwandans, Ugandans and Burundians invaded my country, in 1991 and never left!

Yes, I am becoming more and more Nationalist. Can you tell me who will not since the International Community doesn’t care about the DR Congo? So, it's LOGICAL for me to be proud of my COUNTRY and my ETHNIC background! The solidarity of Congolese Nationalists it’s all I have left!

Why I always have to teach about the Congo? So many years of genocides and abuses, militant you have all these years to 'learn' form!

Isaiah, I know what you think of me. You see me a whiner for the most part! My reason for posting here is less and less clear to me either, and it seems I can never stop talking about my problems and my country.. Maybe I need to leave this website alone. I bother everybody.


Well, you staying and sharing how things are is how many are getting educated on the massacres in Africa.

Most Black Americans are not as aware of these things because like you said, it's not a focus by the 'international' community. Those that do know tend to be Panafricanists, involved intimately with an African person from those countries or have the type of job or volunteer work that exposes them to that information. It doesn't mean people don't care once they do know.

There are some who want to view Africa as a land of milk and honey because they think it's the magic answer, along with making them appear to be the most 'pro.' Don't worry about anyone that may appear to be this way to you. We need to see and know all sides, so we can know how best to deal with it. Realizing the negatives shouldn't in any way subtract the pride one should feel toward Africa.

They hate us Great Ethnic American Blacks for the same reasons everybody us hates us.They hate our style,beauty,swagger,and our red blooded nature.We Ethnic American Blacks need to stop worrying about what OUTSIDERS think of our great people.They aint none of us ETHNIC AMERICAN BLACK folk...