Destee. I would like to bring to your attention what I feel is a personal attack on myself and especialy my mother by one of your moderators...

He has also belittled my religion and that is something I have never done to anyone on this sight..

I have had discussions with this moderator in the past and he has a tendancy to think everything is his way and everyone else is ignorant and stupid..

I will post a quote from him on the AIDs in Africa thread.

this is a quote from Panafrica..

I will clarify a statement here that I did question him as to why his family left Africa. I in no way sladered or demeaned them in any way..
Why would I post an article that I haven't read? Those types of ignorant statements can only come from a neo-Con such as yourself Kingpin. I will warn you only once! Do not talk about my family, which you know absolutely nothing about. My wife's family are exiles from her native country. My father in-law has had no less than 3 execution attempts because of his attempts to help his country. His collegue is currently missing (believed dead) as a result of his efforts. Maybe you are unaware of these types of situations because your mother was too busy having the white man's babies & assimilating into white culture, that she didn't have time (or didn't care) to teach you about black culture!! More than likely you can care less, because the white man hasn't told you these things are important. No the white man told you to go to Africa and convert them heathen savages, so like a good little soldier that is what you go and do. For the record tainted plasma pools doesn't disprove what I'm talking about. My entire point is that I believe tainted blood given in hospitals is how HIV spread so rapidly in Africa. I was giving examples of how tainted blood has created widespread infections in other areas. All the article says is that these people were infected through tainted blood. What is missing is where this blood came from! That is the $1 million dollar question!
__________________

Hello Brother Kingpin ... (not sure if you're a Brother or Sister, please forgive if i'm wrong) ... thanks for taking advantage of the process available to present concerns such as you've posted above ... it is here for you and every Member.

The best way for us to approach this particular situation, is to let the Family decide if Brother Pan has broke a rule and personally attacked you. Of course Brother Pan may feel you personally attacked him, and post that in this thread ... as the accused certainly gets to respond to their accuser, if they'd like.

Because Brother Pan is a Moderator, i'm going to keep my thoughts on this out of the discussion, unless absolutely necessary. This allows the Family, rather than myself, to decide if violations have occurred.

What i'm going to do ... is edit this thread, adding a poll to it ... letting the Family vote whether Pan violated you ... or you violated him ... or whatever options i can come up with for it.

Family ... here is a link to the thread in question ... The impact of AIDS in India & South Africa! (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33817) ... please read it all and vote in the poll above, as well as leave your comments in a post below.

At this point, we're trying to determine if a rule has been broken ... by Brother Pan or Brother Kingpin ... or both.

Family ... please give all your thoughts on this ... we're depending on you to help maintain our peace.

Okay.

How's that Brother Kingpin? Is this an appropriate way to address this issue?

Much Love and Peace Family.

:heart:

Destee

Hello Brother Kingpin ... (not sure if you're a Brother or Sister, please forgive if i'm wrong) ... thanks for taking advantage of the process available to present concerns such as you've posted above ... it is here for you and every Member.

The best way for us to approach this particular situation, is to let the Family decide if Brother Pan has broke a rule and personally attacked you. Of course Brother Pan may feel you personally attacked him, and post that in this thread ... as the accused certainly gets to respond to their accuser, if they'd like.

Because Brother Pan is a Moderator, i'm going to keep my thoughts on this out of the discussion, unless absolutely necessary. This allows the Family, rather than myself, to decide if violations have occurred.

What i'm going to do ... is edit this thread, adding a poll to it ... letting the Family vote whether Pan violated you ... or you violated him ... or whatever options i can come up with for it.

Family ... here is a link to the thread in question ... The impact of AIDS in India & South Africa! (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33817) ... please read it all and vote in the poll above, as well as leave your comments in a post below.

At this point, we're trying to determine if a rule has been broken ... by Brother Pan or Brother Kingpin ... or both.

Family ... please give all your thoughts on this ... we're depending on you to help maintain our peace.

Okay.

How's that Brother Kingpin? Is this an appropriate way to address this issue?

Much Love and Peace Family.

:heart:

Destee


Destee,

I'm a brother by the way and thank you for looking into this. I'll await the families oppinions on this issue.

Hello Family ... this is one of the few times we've used this process, and i'm kinda excited we are now!

I've noticed after creating the poll above, that i could have requested that each Member and their vote, be made available for all to see. Now that i've created it, i can't go back and edit it to add this. Should i delete the existing poll, which has 3 votes already, and start all over?

Is knowing who voted, and what they voted for important?

Hmmmm ... i think it may be ... might keep us more honest ... will let folk know if "new Members" are joining just to vote ... yeah ... i think it would be good in these instances to know such things.

So i'm going to delete the above poll and ask those who have already voted, to vote again.

Sorry for the inconvenience ... but we're learning ... together! :)

:heart:

Destee

Well ... cancel that thought ... i can't easily delete the poll! :)

But next time Family ... we will know who voted and how you voted!

:heart:

Destee

I voted both on the poll. The debate between Kingpin and Pan was pretty heated, but started to get out of control when Kingpin made the following comment about Pan's family:

<< The bold statement is yours not mine so don't try passing it off as me by putting quotes around it. I went there to help, what have you done besides piss and moan, oh yes, and you have friends and family members who moved away from the problem instead of staying to help. >> Kingpin

I could definitely understand how Pan got offended, especially considering his wife's family were political exiles. People who are political exiles leave because usually their lives are in danger for trying to help their country and people too much (at least in the eyes of their country's government :maddd: ).

However, (and I mean no disrespect to Pan when I say this because I do admire his contributions to this site and level of committment to the black community), I believe Pan's statements against King's mother and religion were worse. I understand he is ardently against IR, but I think it's 'hitting-below-the-belt' to insult a mixed-race person's parents, especially when they couldn't help what their parents did. What type of message is this board sending out to biracials if statements like this are allowed? You may not agree with the IRs necessary to create biracials, but you should accept the children of these unions as a person, especially if they are making an effort to get more connected to their black side.

Yes, Kingpin grew up in a white community, and is not as evident of the black experience as others, but don't discredit him because he's mixed. There are PLENTY of 'full-blooded' blacks that view blacks through white culture's eyes too. If they were to post though, would their parents be insulted? I doubt it.
Kingpin's half-black heritage and attempt to be as respectful as he could when posting (before this incident), should be enough for him to be accepted in the community without fear of having his heritage attacked.

That's my take on the issue.

I think it runs deeper than the post KingPin posted. KingPin hasn't been well recieved and I believe he would like nothing more than to blame Pan.

Originally Posted by Kingpin
This is just 2 that I found in about 5 min. I can probably find a lot more if I take the time.. Just my 2 cents worth....I have noticed that some have a easier time than others expressing themselves. I have also noted that a particular moderator lets certain "friends" slide a lot more than others...
============
03-29-2005, 12:18 PM
Kingpin
MEMBER Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Rep Power: 1



Quote:
Originally Posted by panafrica
Who would that particular moderator be Kingpin?

Pan you do tend to let yourself be drawn into arguments.
===========

KingPin has drawn Pan into aruguments.

I have my doubts King is black or mixed black! It is strange he doesn't have more indentification and insight into the black community. His mother has family. No mother lets her son or daughter grow up and not have them know some of the issues they may face in this world.

There are mixed races in my wife's family and everyone one of those children know a lot and can identify with other blacks fairly well. The friends they choose are their own, but the love they have for their mother or father especially black would lead them to ask more and know more about their mother / fathers race.

Not knowing if King is black or White. Of mixed race. How can the original statement be taken as an attack?

=============

03-09-2005, 07:20 AM
panafrica
FORUM MODERATOR Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Diaspora
Posts: 5,018
Rep Power: 65


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin
To answer your questin plainly my mother is black and my father is white so I guess by your reasoning that makes me a "what".

Does this explain some of my views?? yes it does

I have grown up in a predominatly white community so are my experiences differnt than yours??? Yes!!

I will admitt that I have come accross a little strong and if I have offended anyone I am sorry..

I have not experienced the overt racism that a lot of you have so I am not as guarded as some of you..


Thank you for your honesty! What this makes you is one of the biracials that do not identify with the black community (of which I have written much about as of late).

============
We don't experience overt racism, but we do know the history or enough of the history to be weary of false treaty and friendship.

The accuser does not have clean hands.


King you have to be honest. You have tried baiting Pan. Pan should not have stated the point about Kings Mother. It is only true if King is of mixed race. Pan didn't attack your religion personally. He said we all know what the christian missionaries did. They did a lot to destroy culture in Africa. If you are a Republican then you may be considered a New world Order Neo-Con.. this is their new attitude.

King should not use personal information many of us share here to insight.

You aren't dumb King. You laid the trap and you lastest long enough for Pan to take it. The first punch!

Today, 09:17 AM
Replies: 44 The impact of AIDS in India & South Africa!
Views: 419 Posted By Kingpin
you take so much out of context.I have been there and seen first hand. I have been on mission trips for medical and spiritual reasons.

I will tell you this there is hardley any advanced medical care in the central African and...
===
You like saying that to folks King. You have said it on many of my post.
========
Then you stayed on this post all day. Started yesterday.


======
Yesterday, 05:47 PM
Yesterday, 07:23 PM
Yesterday, 07:25 PM
Today, 09:17 AM
Today, 09:20 AM
Today, 09:48 AM - You now have an issue with Pan issue...yet you contuinue
Today, 09:50 AM
Today, 09:54 AM
Today, 09:58 AM
Today, 10:10 AM - You respond to Pan telling you you are distracting. You are King. You may not do this on purpose, but you are. If someone is expressing a black experience. You really can't relate, and you turn the issue into maybe it was them or they are the problem.

It is hard to present the white perpective and apply it to the black perspective when you have only experienced one and are now trying to apply it to the other.

Today, 12:57 PM - then you return.
Today, 04:37 PM
Today, 04:45 PM
Today, 04:46 PM
Then at 5:00 you wrote your complaint.

King you have only contributed one post that you originated. No I'm sorry this complaint makes it two. Nothing to share or pressing in your life King?
============
02-12-2005, 06:39 AM
panafrica
FORUM MODERATOR Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Diaspora
Posts: 5,017
Rep Power: 65



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin
Me neither brother!!!!!


No doubt...Kingpin! If no one else has done so, welcome to Destee.com!
__________________

02-12-2005, 09:23 AM
Kingpin
MEMBER Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Rep Power: 1



Quote:
Originally Posted by panafrica
No doubt...Kingpin! If no one else has done so, welcome to Destee.com!

Thanks for the welcome good to be here

============

Work on getting along. You both were wrong. Let this go!

This was the original I was going to post! :gossip:

King you have not gotten along with others.

02-16-2005, 10:03 AM

info-moetry
FORUM MODERATOR Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Big Apple
Posts: 727
Rep Power: 16



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin
I have read up on Lumeria (Mu) and Atlantis and other "Ancient" civilizations.

Because I dont think the same way as you or have the same religious beliefs as you do not presume to call me unintelligent. I may be ignorant of some of your beliefs but don't ever call me stupid. Yes there is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity.

I am not obligated to study something that I personnaly find a little hokey!! But you go right ahead and do as you wish like I have said Live and let live in all aspects of life....



Kingpin - u invited yourself to reply to my post & foolishly I might add....."What?????? All I can say is what are you talking about. Maybe Im just being slow!!!!

Who is this magical "they"???????????? - then proceeded to call your brotha crazy simply because you don't endulge in that area of study.....I said study because I THOUGHT that maybe b4 you open your mouth next time you might want to investigate the subject a little b4 u let your words go!
I didn't call you stupid or unintelectual - I simply quoted a saying that has been around for decades......"it is better to remain silent and be perceived as intelligent than to open one's mouth & remove all doubt"

peace

====
You gave Pan one of these.... :bam:

==========

I feel Kingpin you have been waiting for an opportunity to tell someone the statement below.

You my friend should go and spend some time with the people that you so forcifuly defend (not just the ones with education in the cities)and I really think you have no idea what your talking about...

I really think you have no idea what your talking about...

This is pretty much what you have said in so many words in some other post. In this one you finally said it. you have some great information, if offered in a way not to tear up, but build up. This is what we are doing here.

I am in Awe :picture: sometimes how you have all the facts and experienced the situation in so many grand schemes. Or manages to have been witness too, or been a part of many things.

In one of Pan's post he said that Kingpin chimes in and creates distraction. He does come in and try and tell us things aren't as stated, thought and that it is probably our fault or something.

You haven't been as supportive as you probably could be KingPin. You haven't and do not understand the many backgrounds and experiences many of us have lived. Yet we are still working to be one.

I think it runs deeper than the post KingPin posted. KingPin hasn't been well recieved and I believe he would like nothing more than to blame Pan. KingPin has drawn Pan into aruguments. I have my doubts King is black or mixed black! It is strange he doesn't have more indentification and insight into the black community. His mother has family. No mother lets her son or daughter grow up and not have them know some of the issues they may face in this world. There are mixed races in my wife's family and everyone one of those children know a lot and can identify with other blacks fairly well. The friends they choose are their own, but the love they have for their mother or father especially black would lead them to ask more and know more about their mother / fathers race. Not knowing if King is black or White. Of mixed race. How can the original statement be taken as an attack? We don't experience overt racism, but we do know the history or enough of the history to be weary of false treaty and friendship. The accuser does not have clean hands. King you have to be honest. You have tried baiting Pan. Pan should not have stated the point about Kings Mother. It is only true if King is of mixed race. Pan didn't attack your religion personally. He said we all know what the christian missionaries did. They did a lot to destroy culture in Africa. If you are a Republican then you may be considered a New world Order Neo-Con.. this is their new attitude. King should not use personal information many of us share here to insight. You aren't dumb King. You laid the trap and you lastest long enough for Pan to take it. The first punch! You respond to Pan telling you you are distracting. You are King. You may not do this on purpose, but you are. If someone is expressing a black experience. You really can't relate, and you turn the issue into maybe it was them or they are the problem. It is hard to present the white perpective and apply it to the black perspective when you have only experienced one and are now trying to apply it to the other.

I was determined not to say anything in my defense, rather let the family see for themselves and trust their objectivity. Fortunately I don't really have to because brother Hodee did an excellent job of both summing up the situation & highlighting my doubts about Kingpin (he must have been reading my mind). I will clarify one important concern which sister Karmashines raised:

Sister Karmashines I thank you for your objective observation. Knowing some of your background (your own family) I can see how you felt I was "hitting" below the belt with my comments about Kingpin's "supposed" multi-racial background. While what I said about Kingpin's mother was not "nice"....I know that (I knew that as I wrote it). However, if he is who he says he is...it isn't a personal attack: It is the painful truth! My statements were not directed against all bi-racials. It was an observation against those who reject their black heritage & spend all their efforts promoting white supremacy! This is what Kingpin represents & he does so with every post.

I can recognize the difference between an individual who is trying to learn about their culture & one who is trying to sow seeds of discord amoung a community. Those who also have this ability will see this "thread" as what it really is. To quote brother Hodee once again:

The accuser does not have clean hands.

I respect your points, Pan.

Hello Family!

We currently have a total of 8 votes, yet only 2 Members ... besides the 2 involved in this case ... have posted comments explaining why they voted like they did.

In light of the seriousness of such accusations, and the decisions reached as a result, i think it's only fair that those who vote, must also post ... explaining their determination.

As i've already said, we've not had much opportunity walking through this process, as issues rarely get to this level. As a result, we've not been able to refine the process, until now.

So Family, please bear with me as i attempt to do that.

In order for your vote to count, you must also post why you voted the way you did. That means, at this point, only 4 votes can be counted. Based on this, the votes tally as follows:

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated

So, at this point ... it seems a tie, that both Members violated.

If you are one of the 8 that voted, but have not posted why you voted that way, please do so, and i'll add your vote to the above.

I find this very exciting, putting on the shoulders of the entire community, what has been on the shoulders of just a few. With the few responses provided with votes, it gives me to know that it isn't as easy as it appears to be, managing such situations. I'm honored by those who truly want to help maintain our peace, by letting us hear your voice.

For those who have "qualified votes" registered, let me know if i posted yours wrong above.

Family ... please continue to share your thoughts.

:heart:

Destee

in my humble opinion, once they (Kingpin and Pan) brought up each other's family members, they personally attacked each other.

I believe the conversation was passionate. But, we have to learn how to not attack one another during a heated debate or discussion.

I have love for both brothas. I have nothing but mad love for Pan...who holds it down day and night. He has big shoes to fill and he fills them well. I was a Mod...I should know. And the brotha does a great job.

Kingpin, I don't know well. But, from reading the few posts I've read from the other thread, I can say that he expresses what he thinks...and that's great. But, he must agree with other family members when it comes to how we view our relationship with other races. African Americans have gone through a lot here and continue to do so. If he can't see that, then he becomes seen as a person who's on this site to tear down and not build up. From what Hodee and Pan are saying, his history (past posts) attests to that. I hope his posts in the future will provide evidence to the contrary.

Destee: Take out your paddle, give them a couple of swats on the booty, and send them back out into the yard to play...peacefully. :D

I agree with Brother Kingpin. When he stated people in Africa were ignorant, he tried to explain that they just weren't as educated about HIVand AIDS. Brother Pan went off, seemed as if he thought King was saying everyone was as dense as doorknobs. Then King asked why Pan's wife left her country, he didn't say anthing against them. It was out of line to speak of Kings mother in that way. King tried to keep it civil and it should've never come to name calling. I'm sorry King, and to anyone else who either disagrees with this or thinks I'm misinterpreting it (in other words I hope I'm wrong and please correct me if I am), but it seems some members think you have little place in a black forum or speaking on any issues to do with our society if you're half white or have a white partner.

Thank you Brother Monetary and Sister Ledda. Your votes have been counted.

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated
Brother Monetary - both violated
Sister Ledda - Pan violated

Thanks for helping to resolve this.

For those who have yet to post and vote ... please do so.

:heart:

Destee

I agree with Brother Kingpin. When he stated people in Africa were ignorant, he tried to explain that they just weren't as educated about HIVand AIDS. Brother Pan went off, seemed as if he thought King was saying everyone was as dense as doorknobs. Then King asked why Pan's wife left her country, he didn't say anthing against them. It was out of line to speak of Kings mother in that way. King tried to keep it civil and it should've never come to name calling. I'm sorry King, and to anyone else who either disagrees with this or thinks I'm misinterpreting it (in other words I hope I'm wrong and please correct me if I am), but it seems some members think you have little place in a black forum or speaking on any issues to do with our society if you're half white or have a white partner.



Ledda.. I disagree. I do not have anything against biracial individuals. What I don't like is anyone that takes issues that are real in society and more real for some than others. Take those issues and try to make those effected feel guilty for poverty. Crime, and their lack of change or prosperity. Minimizing real issues , even trying to explain it away, knowing the issue remains unsolved.

Putting solutions forward is different, but saying it is the fault of Africans for not keeping some of the diamonds stolen and some of the oil stolen, and for not fighting for themselves against all this. Saying that Africans are to blame for having AID's because of lack of education. Is wrong.. does not sound supportive of anyone or anything. Education didn't start it, and hasn't slowed it down. Those stealing the resources, Europeans .. Whites South Africans, corporations here in America and many families in the United States now have cures for Aid's that work better in blacks and asians that do not work well in whites or mexicans.

The funding was cut off, and the project scrapped and stopped and the medicine trashed because they said there must have been a mistake in the study. That company is in Brisbane California..here is the link I posted.

Read it. Do something. I sent a letter...I let them know I felt the dropping of this vaccine was wrong.

But no one should come here to Destee and say it is their fault.. no it is those I listed above. They took the money. All I want is for them to give some back in drug and money support to those they have targeted for GENOCIDE.. including every mixed black and black as blue black.. from Africa to America, Europe to South America.

I wouldn't care if they were my blood relative.. I will let them know I feel they are wrong.

Who someone here on Destee is ( white, black, biracial ) have no relevance in my life. Who they date or marries does not either.

I do care about everyone here. I have a stack in what I enjoy, and I do not like to see a lack of concern, or haphazard individuals break down harmony that even I don't always flow with ( see I can't comment on every subject, on many post, it might be something I do not have enough information about or I may not have anything to add. But that doesn't keep me from reading and making at least a comment like very nice.. or great information ) but I support because I care.

Look at the numbers at the top of the forum page. There are and have been over 8,600 members registered. We are going to get new members. The old ones, drop in once and a while, and cruise thru enjoy themselves, never heard from and are gone again.

Some of the new members come in and want to be noticed. ( In high school teens will act like this, to be the most popular. They pick on someone they feel they can bully. ) So they make some noise, and finally do something that gets them banned.

Ledda.. this site has and gives anyone that comes in and has a profession, talent or just know something well enough and feels comfortable speaking and sharing with others an opportunity to teach! Set a schedule and hold class to share that information. You can't buy what is taught around here.

And all us are open minded, and will to come to listen and support them .. Everyone here does this. Tell me this. Isn't this a place like no other? I pay to support it, because I have not seen anything like it.

I see bigger things happening here, and I want to be a part of it. I want anyone that wants to be a part of it to be there also. I do not know how to exclude. I have no rght to exculde and I nver will. But I will defend and speak up! For you, and anyone else that I feel deserve it. ( I have been accused of defending whites on here, I have been accused of defending blacks on here. I will defend any one.)

============

http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19346&highlight=vaxgen


FEB. 2003

http://host65.aegis.com/news/afp/2003/af030268.html


" WASHINGTON, Feb 24 (AFP) - The first mass trial on an AIDS vaccine failed to produce the hoped for shield against the global pandemic but did give some protection to blacks and Asians, the makers said Monday.

Tested over three years, AIDSVAX failed to protect most volunteers against HIV infection, according to VaxGen Inc.

The vaccine or a dummy version was administered in three doses to 5,009 volunteers, primarily gay men in the United States, as well as Canada, Puerto Rico and the Netherlands.

Two-thirds were given the vaccine, and one-third the placebo.

"There were 67 percent fewer HIV infections among ethnic minorities, other than Hispanic individuals," the company said. "There were 78 percent fewer HIV infections among black volunteers who received vaccine compared to placebo recipients."
They showed "certain groups have a better immune response" to HIV and this warranted further study, he argued. "


Vaxgen shares plunged 54.38 percent to 5.94 dollars after the announcement.

SEE HOW THEY TREAT US. HERE IS A CURE. AND THE FUNDS ARE PULLED BECAUSE IT BENEFITED US MORE. PROTEST.. SEND THEM A LETTER... I DID.

Headquarters
VaxGen Inc.
1000 Marina Boulevard
Brisbane, CA 94005
Phone: (650) 624-1000
Fax: (650) 624-1001






=============

Saying that Africans are to blame for having AID's because of lack of education. Is wrong.. does not sound supportive of anyone or anything. .

And all us are open minded, and will to come to listen and support them .. Everyone here does this. Tell me this. Isn't this a place like no other? I pay to support it, because I have not seen anything like it.


Hodee,

Kingpin never said it was the people's fault they have AIDS and he didn't single out Africa. He posted that it's the governments in those coutries that are to blame for keeping their people uneducated about prevention and available medications. If this thread had been able to continue without personnal attacks people could have read that India and China are just now admitting an AIDS problem, again their gov. are to blame

When he stated that he's has gone to Africa on mission work he was immidiately attacked and his motives questioned. He's there helping and supporting which is more than most can say.

All on this sight aren't open minded and that's the problem, some take a disagreement as a personnal offront and that is wrong.

I'm voting that Kingpin was attacked, as a moderator Pan shouldn't be drawn into arguments, he tends to be the first one to hurl names and lables. A moderator should moderate not make matters worse.

I guess the main thing that needs to be emphasized is that if you're coming on a black-oriented website, don't come with the same old crap that everything is all our fault. While we're not a monolith and will think differently on certain issues, members who consistently put forth a mindset that is vastly in opposition to the main train of thought in the community need to check themselves.

Granted, all members need to not say what they immediately think when they come across a post they disagree with. We still need to argue against the statements and not the poster. I know that there was one thread that I disagreed with the main train of thought of the community (I believe it was the don't date whites one), and one of the members had made the assumption I was white, which I didn't appreciate at the time, but things were cleared up. Still, we should not be quick to call someone 'white' because they disagree with us.... we're all coming from different backgrounds and won't always see things in the same light on every issue.

On the same token, though, there are some members who take more of a conservative standpoint on almost every issue... to the point that there is no purpose for them being here, because they will ALWAYS argue it's the fault of the individual, not the RACIST system. If a poster falls into this category, then they are either going to have to open their mind, or leave the website. It's no use in being here if you think all of the problems with the black community are a result of not 'working hard', getting an education, and being more responsible.

Thank you Sister Indya. Your vote have been counted.

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated
Brother Monetary - both violated
Sister Ledda - Pan violated
Sister Indya - Pan violated

Thanks for helping to resolve this.

For those who have yet to post and vote ... please do so.

:heart:

Destee

Hodee,

Kingpin never said it was the people's fault they have AIDS and he didn't single out Africa. He posted that it's the governments in those coutries that are to blame for keeping their people uneducated about prevention and available medications. If this thread had been able to continue without personnal attacks people could have read that India and China are just now admitting an AIDS problem, again their gov. are to blame

When he stated that he's has gone to Africa on mission work he was immidiately attacked and his motives questioned. He's there helping and supporting which is more than most can say.

All on this sight aren't open minded and that's the problem, some take a disagreement as a personnal offront and that is wrong.

I'm voting that Kingpin was attacked, as a moderator Pan shouldn't be drawn into arguments, he tends to be the first one to hurl names and lables. A moderator should moderate not make matters worse.


Originally Posted by HODEE

Saying that Africans are to blame for having AID's because of lack of education. Is wrong.. does not sound supportive of anyone or anything. .

He did say this " I have to say that the primary reason AIDS/HIV is spread so readily in Africa and India is lack of education or in other words ignorance. "

Kingpin never said it was the people's fault they have AIDS and I never said that either. Where did you get this translation?

Those other countries admitting they have a problem now? I knew they had a problem in 2003.

Are you open minded Indya? Then open it a little more and read the postings again. They both were wrong, they both were attacking, and because King played more of the victum doesn't clean his hands of the sneaky and move.

This is what I really think. Anyone that hasn't help support this site should be excluded! Now am I attacking anyone? I beleive when someone invest in something they care more about it. If the server needs another upgrade, I am voting that free rides be reduced.

So are you saying it is OK to draw anyone into arguments? Your coming from past arguments too Indya.. Don't let the oast postings bias you.

I'm voting that Kingpin was attacked, as a moderator Pan shouldn't be drawn into arguments, he tends ( a past statement observation ) to be the first one to hurl names and lables. A moderator should moderate not make matters worse

Post#24: PanAfrica's wife (who was not a part of the conversation) gets drawn into it by Kingpin.

I have been there and seen first hand. I have been on mission trips for medical and spiritual reasons.I will tell you this there is hardley any advanced medical care in the central African and southern African regions outside the cities...You are right that medical care helps people with AIDs live longer but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The primary purpose is to treat those infected and KEEP THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFECTED FREE OF INFECTION. You do this by EDUCATION. That is the reason that more medical care needs to be available...You my friend should go and spend some time with the people that you so forcifuly defend (not just the ones with education in the cities)and I really think you have no idea what your talking about...Yes your wife is African but tell me why exactly did she leave??? Instead of staying and building up and educating the people who have had no access to the information that is readily avialable here in the US..Yes information is out there but if IT IS NOT PUT TO THE PUBLIC IT DOES NO GOOD.You completley ignored havelandks when he pointed out that later on in the sight you posted it talked about the Chinise village having a tainted plasma pool. IT was the gov. fault the village had such a high rate of infection.you my friend mistake the fact that the physicians and educated people know what is going on with AIDS and assume that since they know everyone else knows.Do you know how to perform openheart surgery or a simple appendectomy?? Probably not, however our physicians do, but if they know than EVERYONE should know how to do this by your reasoning... Right???You completley ignored when it was pointed out that the medications available to stop the transmission of AIDs to the infant from their mother has not been made available to the general public in these countries. So every woman who has a baby will inturn have an infected baby. This falls back on the Government of these countries....You go right on believing in your fantasy world that the government cares about their people or that they are all so knowledgable about the transmission of these diseases.. I have been there first hand... Have you???If you want information on how people are kept in ignorance about viruses just look up the current Marburg virus outbreak in Angola. The medical personell and helpers have been attacked for trying to stop the spread. The medical personel have been accused of tampering with bodies when all they are trying to do is stem the spread of a VERY VERY deadly virus.. Oh wait I'm sure everyone there knows just how it is spread since the doctors know.... Right???

Post#36: Kingpin out right makes the claim, that he was insinuating in post#24

The bold statement is yours not mine so don't try passing it off as me by putting quotes around it. I went there to help, what have you done besides piss and moan, oh yes, and you have friends and family members who moved away from the problem instead of staying to help.
No one is changing the subject here. We're discussing AIDS in Africa, China and India. I have no insight on the spread of AIDs in Africa and India?? Your the one who posted the sight about India, but neglected to read the entire article before you posted it. Remember the part about the tainted plasma pool, that the gov. knew about. Gee, do you think that the gov. over there may have been neglectful to their own people??I'll not argue that the US was slow to recognize the epidemic, but they did start testing the blood supply here, Japan and Switzerland around 1985, Haiti didn't start testing their's until 1989, WHY did they take so long. I'm not sure when African countries or India and China started testing theirs, but it looks like the gov. in those countries were neglectful, not the US. As to why there is still a high number of new infections in India, China and Africa. I still state that it's because of lack of information about the spread of the disease and prevention. Many in those countries lack credible information, condoms and medications (to prevent the disease spreading to newborns).Your trying to start a consperacy theory here and it's no holding water. So you've fallen back to making personnal attacks.

Post#40: PanAfrica allegedly makes a personal attack against Kingpin

Why would I post an article that I haven't read? Those types of ignorant statements can only come from a neo-Con such as yourself Kingpin. I will warn you only once! Do not talk about my family, which you know absolutely nothing about. My wife's family are exiles from her native country. My father in-law has had no less than 3 execution attempts because of his attempts to help his country. His collegue is currently missing (believed dead) as a result of his efforts. Maybe you are unaware of these types of situations because your mother was too busy having the white man's babies & assimilating into white culture, that she didn't have time (or didn't care) to teach you about black culture!! More than likely you can care less, because the white man hasn't told you these things are important. No the white man told you to go to Africa and convert them heathen savages, so like a good little soldier that is what you go and do. For the record tainted plasma pools doesn't disprove what I'm talking about. My entire point is that I believe tainted blood given in hospitals is how HIV spread so rapidly in Africa. I was giving examples of how tainted blood has created widespread infections in other areas. All the article says is that these people were infected through tainted blood. What is missing is where this blood came from! That is the $1 million dollar question!

Since Kingpin is proclaiming that I attacked him for no reason, I think he shouldn't have a problem with answering some questions (for those on the sideline to hear). Kingpin:

1. Why did you feel it was necessary to bring my wife into this particular conversation? As I said in the previous post, I never mentioned my wife in this particular thread. Did you feel because she is of African origin that the thread automatically pertained to her? My wife is African by heritage; however, she was born and raised in Spain. Therefore in a discussion about HIV in South Africa & India, is there a logical reason to include people who do not live in either country?

2. How did you know my wife's family was from Africa? I have never talked about my wife with you. Because of this, the only way you could have known this information was by reading previous post from me. If this was the case, you should also have been aware that my wife's family are political exiles.

3. Did you have an ulterior motive? If this subject did not directly involve my wife's family, why bring them up at all? The only reason I can think of was to demonstrate that you (in your new claim as an African missionary), wanted to illustrate that you have done more for Africa than myself & my family. In other words Kingpin, you were trying to discredit me! You tried to discredit me with personal information I have supplied in other threads.

4. Is is okay to bring up personal information of members to win arguments? I think you believe it is okay, because this is what you did Kingpin. You wanted to say that you helped Africa by going there on Missionary assignments, while my in-laws "ran" away from problems. Therefore you care more about Africa than I do, because you actually have done something. The personal information (your interpretation of it) about my in-laws adds weight to your viewpoint. More importantly it influences others to see things your way. That was your intent wasn't it Kingpin? If you feel that it is okay to use personal information of members to win arguments, then how can my comments about your mother & upbringing be considered a personal attack?

Family, your vote should be based on the facts...and not your personal opinions against someone, their posts in the past except the thread in question or your interaction between you and said person. Let's be fair about this. I know we can do it.

We're a fair people.

Peace and Love, Fam.

:grouphug:

Family ... i have closed the poll above, as those votes do not count.

In order to vote on this issue, you must post a response explaining your position.

Currently ... the vote tally is as follows:

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated
Brother Monetary - both violated
Sister Ledda - Pan violated
Sister Indya - Pan violated

Thanks for helping to resolve this.

For those who have yet to post and vote ... please do so.

Every Member is welcome to vote.

:heart:

Destee

Family, your vote should be based on the facts...and not your personal opinions against someone, their posts in the past except the thread in question or your interaction between you and said person. Let's be fair about this. I know we can do it.

We're a fair people.

Peace and Love, Fam.

:grouphug:

Monetary well put. My opinion is

a.Both violated form rules. Kingpin had no reason to inject anything concerning Pans wife's family. Pan also had no reason to inject anything about Kingpins mother.
b. But when writing about a in-law vs a direct relative, hands down mentioning anyones mother is bound to draw fire, and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.
c. Both wrong, but Pans is the greater wrong. Its only one vote but should be weighted as Pan being more in the wrong than Kingpin.
d. The sad part of this really is I equate this with voting in the elections, its probably a waste of time!

I don't think either of the parties should be allowed to try to justify their position in this discussion, as I think the rest of us are capable of reading the thread, and coming to a position.

DESTEE,
i HAVE READ THE FORUM AND I TRULY THAT THERE ARE SOME VIOLATIONS HERE BUT NONE TO RENDER DISIPLINARY ACTION.

BROTHER PAN-bROTHER KINGPIN
(NO VIOLATIONS)

WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS AN OPEN VENUE OF DISCUSSION, FEELINGS WILL BE HURT.. AND NOT ALL WILL SEE EYE TO EYE, THATS THE JOY OF IT!
eXPRESSION, NOW AS ADULTS WE SHOULD LEARN HOW TO AGREE TO DISAGREE, AND MOVE ON. i FEEL THAT THE COMMENTS BY BROTHER PAN, WERE LOW.. BUT THATS HIS OPINION. WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN OPINON, HE DIDNT CALL HIS MOTHER OUT OF NAME... HE REFERED TO "THE WHITE MAN".. AS BEING HIS FATHER BUT IT WAS COMPLETELY OPINION BASED. iN A HEATED DISCUSSION, IT WASNT OUT OF THE BLUE.. AND WASNT A WISE CRACK.. HE WAS JSUT STATING HIS TAKE ON THINGS.. FOR THAT WE CANNOT REPRIMAND*

Hello Family,

Currently ... the vote tally is as follows:

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated
Brother Monetary - both violated
Sister Ledda - Pan violated
Sister Indya - Pan violated
Brother Havilandks - both violated
Sister PoeticManifesta - No Violation Occurred

Thanks for helping to resolve this.

For those who have yet to post and vote ... please do so.

Every Member is welcome to vote.

:heart:

Destee

Hotep
Most times it is easy to disagree when discusing personal matters and with dis-agrement, depending on the level of understanding of the persons involved, we have to take into concideration ones own degree of maturity as well.
Both parties have good intentions and communication is the only failure at a point assuming more reserch is needed. :teach:
Ase`

Brother Moorfius ... are you saying both violated ... or no one violated?

:heart:

Destee

Respectfuly
A mountain can be made out of a mole hill, and what we really have is a "failure to Communicate". and if given more time these Brothers of ours can come to a better understanding.
Sincerely

uhhhh ... Brother Moorfius ... that still doesn't clearly tell me how you have voted.

I need to know specifically ... do you feel that

1. Brother Pan Violated
2. Brother KingPin Violated
3. They Both Violated
4. Neither Violated

Let me know Brother Moorfius, if you want your vote counted.

Thanks again for responding.

:heart:

Destee

Panafrica : Maybe you are unaware of these types of situations because your mother was too busy having the white man's babies & assimilating into white culture, that she didn't have time (or didn't care) to teach you about black culture!!

KingPin : Yes your wife is African but tell me why exactly did she leave??? Instead of staying and building up and educating the people who have had no access to the information that is readily avialable here in the US..

Regardless of who started it, I think BOTH personally attacked the other... :yesno: Folks on this site need to learn how to agree to disagree about ANY and EVERYTHING without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.. Not all white/Asian/Latino folks agree with each other so why in the world would anyone expect all black folks to think alike ??? And what's more : why should we ??? If Destee's Forum is about loving and uplifting the race then let it be about that ! I may not agree with the political and/or religious beliefs of a Black conservative Hindu, but that doesn't mean that I have to harbor severe disdain bordering on hatred for them either. That is just ridiculous ! Furthermore, whether I am the person being attacked or not... I still find it offensive and sickening :puke: It makes a mockery of everything that our Sister Destee has formed this wonderful home to be. 'Cause I'm pretty sure she didn't say : "I want this to be a home for all "like minded" black folks ONLY..." If that were the case, this would be a very BORING community and we wouldn't be blessed to have members from all over the world with such diverse backrounds, life philosophies, and experiences !

Let's concentrate more on our similarites - less on our differences - and lovin' each other ya'll ... (perceived) warts and all !!!

Much Love to all of you
Akilah :grouphug:

I'm not sure if mods are able to participate in this poll, but I will cast my vote and if it is not allowed, so be it.

Reviewing the posted link, I must say that both are liable. Brother King Pin, you did inject Brother Pans wife into a discussion on a forum that she doesn't even participate in. If Brother pan chooses to share something about his wife, then that is his call. I don't believe you was sincere in your asking the question. I believe you asked it knowing that it would bring about chaos. So it was an loaded question.

Brother Pan did not handle the situation very well, he in turn gave you what you was provoking to ignite, by responding to your question with the same intent that you yourself laid out.

Yes, Brother pan is a moderator and should have handle this situation differently, but the fact is, moderating a large community, with many diverse personaility is new to us. We are learning as we go how to be more efficient in our efforts. Brother Pan has been dedicated and always contributing to this community with his support, his voice in the discussions, and his attendance here.

Yes, you did the right thing by presenting your issue, but your hands were not clean either. Having said that, I think you both were wrong.

Respectfuly
A mountain can be made out of a mole hill, and what we really have is a "failure to Communicate". and if given more time these Brothers of ours can come to a better understanding.
Sincerely


We must draw from our " degree of maturity ". Some of our members are young, and the young ones don't get into these type of discussions and problems. They seem to still have some degree of respect and an approach that isn't as caustic.

What we really have is a "failure to Communicate". and if given more time these Brothers of ours can come to a better understanding.

Very good Moorfius. What you wrote is a breath of fresh air, and positive consideration. This is the approach we need to consider. Only the brothers seem to be letting EGO's get the best of us.

Destee when do you plan on closing this and letting us know what is to be done? If Pan and King can work this out, will that be taken into consideration?

PAN... KINGPIN... What would you like.. is a discussion and a resolution between brothers possible? One that builds and leads the way to better days.

We do learn and grow more after these type of encounters.

This can go on for days or a dead line can be set to consider what is next in the resolution.

Hello Family,

Currently ... the vote tally is as follows:

Brother Kingpin - Pan violated
Brother Pan - Kingpin violated
Brother HODEE - both violated
Sister Karmashines - both violated
Brother Monetary - both violated
Sister Ledda - Pan violated
Sister Indya - Pan violated
Brother Havilandks - both violated
Sister PoeticManifesta - No Violation Occurred
Sister Akilah - both violated
Sister PurpleMoons - both violated

Thanks for helping to resolve this.

For those who have yet to post and vote ... please do so.

Every Member is welcome to vote ... and that includes Moderators ... :) @ Sister Purple!

:heart:

Destee

Destee when do you plan on closing this and letting us know what is to be done? If Pan and King can work this out, will that be taken into consideration?

PAN... KINGPIN... What would you like.. is a discussion and a resolution between brothers possible? One that builds and leads the way to better days.

This can go on for days or a dead line can be set to consider what is next in the resolution.

Brother HODEE ... i appreciate your concern for the process, and what the end will be. Unfortunately, i don't know what the end will be. We rarely have issues like this to deal with, as most Members work out their differences where it took place ... or at least agree to disagree.

We are feeling our way through what we hope to be a process that facilitates resolution between Members, when needed. One in which the Moderators or myself, don't have the full weight of being responsible for. One in which empowers each Member of this Family to be a part of what takes place here ... a part of our own Family Justice System!

This thread is not a week old yet, and i think it only fair to give every Member an opportunity to respond, if they'd like. I'm thinking it should remain open for votes, for at least a week or so? After that, we will quit taking votes and see what the Family's overall concensus is. At that point, depending on the findings, we'll try to gather suggestions for resolution. Who knows, the Brothers may do as you've suggested, and agree to live together peacefully from this point on, without further intervention from the Family.

Again, this is all relatively new to us, with nothing written in stone.

I've found it to be a very rewarding experience, in some aspects, as we get to walk through and improve upon the process, have the Family's input, allow us to learn to resolve our issues peacefully ... grow together. It's a beautiful thing!

While this thread is about Brother Kingpin's concern, there is so much more going on here!

I've not shared my views yet, because i don't want to taint the jurors! :)
But i have some thoughts, and hope at the end of this i'll get to share them.

I hope i've answered your questions, and if not, let me know.

Much Love and Peace.

:heart:

Destee

I hope neither member suffers serious consequences, especially for what appears to be a first-time offense (this is based on my observations since the time I've been here). I am particularly concerned for Panafrica, because he is a moderator and has contributed a great deal to the well-being of this site.

Granted, I hope this experience will show him and other moderators to be more calm when responding to troublesome posts, even if they get personal. Moderators are held to a higher standard than 'normal' members, so they have to have a thicker skin. This is not to say I don't sympathize with Pan's side, but if he had just been able to say, "Do not mention my family, as this goes against Destee's rules," without the other part, none of us would be on this thread now. He is too valuable a member to have a something like this affect his position in the community.

Kingpin also seems to not have done anything up until this point. There was some controversey when he first came to the site, because people thought he was white. However, when he explained his situation, people were more understanding (well, at least I was). And while some of his opinions obviously reflected his more 'white' upbringing, he didn't do anything that required any reprimanding. And if he really is trying to get in touch with his black side, I truly don't want to see him turned away either. The only thing I would emphasize (which I told him in another thread) is to open his mind to views different from the typical 'white' view that everything is equal and all you have to do is work hard. James gave additional advice to shut up and open his mind, which on some threads is best.

Anyway, I've said my piece yet again. :) I thank Destee for allowing members to voice their opinions on this matter.

truth be told...i don't know why people have their panties all ruffled up for...i have read the original threads and i see some signs of oversensitivity. no one was ever called out of their name and in my opinion no forum rules were violated. i believe what we have here is just 2 varing points of view on a sensitive topic. sometimes discussions get heated and in the mist, some things are said that really add nothing to the argument at hand. in my honest opinion i believe that nothing was done to warrant any disciplinary actions in this matter. pan and kingpin both swung below the belt therefore no one is squeeky clean concerning what was said.

if you guys think that this was a personal attack, i wish ya'll could have been around at the lunch table with me at high school because i know people that still harbour emotional scars for what was said during those 25 minutes each day. shake hands and agree to disagree...we are all black here so there does not exist the need to have any pissing contests.IMHO

no harm no foul...just varing points of view
one love
khasm

Brother Kingpin ... i have not forgot about this complaint / possible violation, that you presented. I would like to officially resolve it, and i have a couple of ways we can do that. It will be your choice. Okay?

Option #1

Brother Kingpin, it would be my hope that you'd be willing to "drop the charges," since when you presented them, you were so new to our community. You had not had a real chance to see how we live here, and now that you have, and there's been no additional issues, it's my hope that you'd not see a need to further this. That we can just ... well ... like i said ... "drop the charges" ... and move on. If you choose this option, i'll thank you kindly and that will be the end of it.

Option #2

Brother Kingpin, you certainly don't have to choose #1 above. You can request that it go all the way to the end ... receiving the "official destee response" ... which will require me to go back and look at all of the particulars of this situation and compose that response. I really don't wanna have to do this, since it seems all is well now ... but if this is what you want, i'll do it.

The choice is yours Brother Kingpin.

Please let me know.

Thanks.

:heart:

Destee

After going through this for the second time and really seeking fairness
and truth i fine it in fault to both for low blows , i also found it to be an added
bliss from pass threads that carried into this one which Kingpin have pushed
PanAfrica and yes it's true Pan didn't handle it so well due to the emotional
state he carry for blacks and Africa and it's people.

while Pan knew his statement was a blow before he did it but also to prove
a point and point out something which Kingpin himself made statements of
about who and what he was and lived the differents of parents which open such
statement up from PAN .........it also show that KingPin been pushing for this
when their was no way he could have known anything about Pan wife less he
took personal time and effort to dig to bring this up which say he provoke this
I'm very strong on fairness and good will ........

I HOLD BOTH IN FAULT BY REASONS OF MAKING A POINT THEREFORE
THIS SHOULD BE DROPED BECAUSE THIS VERY THING HAPPENS DAILY
SOMEWAY TO ANOTHER HERE IN OUR COMMUNITY > A simply note to both
with a sample of their wrongness and that it could have been provoked from them
being so different ......Kingpin mistake was continuing going after Pan > Pan mistake
was he forgot to use his moderating skillz to sum it up but blast back with a right hook

Note ....
Pan if you would have used your moderating skillz over your Pan-africanism way
surely i would hold total fault to Kingpin

KingPin you have provoke such and proven by my eye to continue at pan
which left a knockout punch at you but you also was swinging to make a point
at him and was wrong you started it and carried it into that discussion to keep
it going because y'all don't agree so you was looking for a weak point .

Destee.....
it was a debate that both took on deep and both was making points in such statement
that was taken to be personal attacks, which violated both from the statements made
about family / mother / issue to be fair they both should get a note from you that it
will not be and to not let this happen or take place any futher or a simple sides
of apology from both would end this which i see both should do as men and close this
drama-tize issues. ( my view of it all )