Before I became a Muslim, I was of those who went around calling myself "god" and believing that the black man was the original God of the universe.

Yes...

My favorite quote was Psalms 82:6-"Ye are all gods, children of the Most High God."

I had my own philosophy down pat and challenged any and everybody to prove me wrong.

PEACE RALF:

It is not necesssarily any philosophy that is faulty, but our understanding of it that may be in question.

The concept of God In Man is an ancient and primordial one. It didn't begin with a single Biblical verse, or even the 120 Lessons. In fact these are but recent incarnations and filterations of these principles, modernized in a form that our contemporary people can fathom and perhaps appreciate it.

Nothing is new under the Sun.

PEACE

If we are God's where has our power gone? How is it that we can no longer bring one atom into existance a priori much less an entire universe teeming with life. Is it a lost art which we will regain if we turn our backs on western cybilisation? Was the creation o the white race our last mistake?

May I ask, how long it's been since you first took your Shahadah?

PEACE

If we are God's where has our power gone? How is it that we can no longer bring one atom into existance a priori much less an entire universe teeming with life. Is it a lost art which we will regain if we turn our backs on western cybilisation? Was the creation o the white race our last mistake?

PEACE RIVER:

In my response to PURPLE in the QUESTIONS thread, I asserted that alot of our understandings of most things spiritual have been filtered through western understanding.

God for many ancient peoples never meant the same thing it means for people in today's modern world.

It doesn't (necessarily) mean that we can fly, read minds, shoot laser beams, or other such outlandish stuff (though those things aren't necessarily ruled out).

River

I no longer believe that we are gods (big or little "g").

The REAL God showed me who was actually in control



Sam

I've been a Muslim for about 6 years now.

OK.

I took Shahadah when I was 12.

PEACE

Sam

12 is too young to take shahada if you ask me.

A person can practice Islam and believe but they should only take the shahada when they actually know and understand what they are saying.

I'm tempted to say that one should commit to any religion ONLY when they have properly studied a wide range of others and can compare as I have.



Do you still believe in the oath you took that there is NO GOD but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger?

If we are God's where has our power gone? How is it that we can no longer bring one atom into existance a priori much less an entire universe teeming with life. Is it a lost art which we will regain if we turn our backs on western cybilisation? Was the creation o the white race our last mistake?I cannot believe you actually think, let alone wrote that you think we created the white race. And you call yourself a Christian??? Repent Sister.

I cannot believe you actually think, let alone wrote that you think we created the white race. And you call yourself a Christian??? Repent Sister.

peace,

I don't think that's what our sister river was saying at all. I think she was asking me & others a ? more than making a statement...........

I cannot believe you actually think, let alone wrote that you think we created the white race. And you call yourself a Christian??? Repent Sister.
You see, this is NOT what's up. REPENT! OR YOU'LL BE DAMNED! LOL Sister River made an intelligent observation, which is her GOD given right.

River, have you seen the pictures of the "Future" Buddha (Maitreya (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~paddler/bodhisattva/maitne.htm)) sitting on a throne in western style? This is a representation of what our ancient Afro-asiatic ancestors prophesied that Afrikan (Indigenous) peoples worldwide would suffer but would be "Re-born in the West". So to answer your question, western civilisation had to come about so that we could be made "new".

AAAUUUMMM

PEACE RALF:

Sam

12 is too young to take shahada if you ask me.

A person can practice Islam and believe but they should only take the shahada when they actually know and understand what they are saying.

I'm tempted to say that one should commit to any religion ONLY when they have properly studied a wide range of others and can compare as I have.

Under normal circumstances, I would be inclined to agree with you......However, my life story has been complex at best.

Suffice it to say, I've been intellectually astute (not to brag, but I was reading since I was 3, I read an entire volume of encyclopedias by the time I was time I was 10), and spiritually ascendant since my early childhood.

I was indeed blessed with a powerful enlightener, who was versed in the various schools of thought of Islam--particularly Sufi and Ahmadiyyah, among others--who guided my path quite well.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to understimate the youth; I've been to different countries, and I've seen children younger than I was teaching the QUR'AN.

Children can sometimes be wiser than our elders.

Do you still believe in the oath you took that there is NO GOD but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger?

As I have stated previously, I don't "believe" in anything......However, as far as Shahadah goes, it still means alot to be, simply because I was taught a deeper and greater meaning behind it.

Thus, it's not about believing in it, it's more about understanding it for me.

LA ILAHAH ILLAH ALLAHI, WA DAHU LA SHARIYKH ALLAHI has a deeper meaning for me, that very few Muslims that I've encountered have yet to relate to.

SALAAM

I cannot believe you actually think, let alone wrote that you think we created the white race. And you call yourself a Christian??? Repent Sister.

I too am appauled by this admonishment.

First, what does the origin of humanity have to do with Christianity?

Second, why is she being admonished for asking intelligent questions?

Third, how do you think white people got here? They weren't here prior to 6,000 to 8,000 years ago.

I would advise that prior to admonishing others, that you seek more knowledge on these subjects in question.

PEACE

Sam

Peace black....


I went from being a typical American Christians who knew nothing about religion.

...to reading the entire bible and leaving the church while remaining a Christian.

...to leaving Christianity all together and rejecting all religion.

....to joining the Nation of Islam while not knowing the full teachings of the NOI.

...to leaving the Nation of Islam and LATER accepting it's full teachings after I left.

....to once again rejecting all religion but studying different religions.

....to finally reading the Koran in it's entirety and finally accepting it and Islam.



It's not that deep.

To me, Islam is the Koran...not hadith, scholarly work, and the behavior of Muslims.

Unlike many people who make religion their entire life, I make it only part of my life and use it as a guide.








Witness

Perhaps there is some truth that the white race came from us as a result of a mistake:

In the 2 Book of Kings Chapter 5 we read:

"20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said, Behold, my master hath spared Naaman this Syrian, in not receiving at his hands that which he brought: but, as the LORD liveth, I will run after him, and take somewhat of him. 21 So Gehazi followed after Naaman. And when Naaman saw him running after him, he lighted down from the chariot to meet him, and said, Is all well? 22 And he said, All is well. My master hath sent me, saying, Behold, even now there be come to me from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets: give them, I pray thee, a talent of silver, and two changes of garments. 23 And Naaman said, Be content, take two talents. And he urged him, and bound two talents of silver in two bags, with two changes of garments, and laid them upon two of his servants; and they bare them before him. 24 And when he came to the tower, he took them from their hand, and bestowed them in the house: and he let the men go, and they departed. 25 But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither. 26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants? 27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow."


So if his seed is supposed to be white as snow forever, and we believe this is the word of God...then that means his seed must still exist and still be white!

I'll admit that NOI theology can be confusing, especially when one attempts to merge it with traditional Islam.

However, this is where an acute understanding of the ancient cultures in question comes into play: Kemet, Ancient Arabia, Sumeria, etc.

The Hon. Elijah Muhammad makes vast esoteric references to these cultures and their ideologies in his doctrine, and he did so for good reason.

AMIR FATIR gives some rather eloquent breakdowns in his various books about Elijah's teachings, relating them back to ancient times of when Islam was practiced prior to the coming of Muhammad.

It is only when you see these teachings with a renewed perspective does it begin to make sense; Elijah told us to "read something 7 times to gain the best understanding of it".

SALAAM

Okay Brother's, Ive been meaning to ask yall, but was hoping that someone would provide the understanding of NOI so I wouldn't have too ask.

Yall caught me! I must to confess too, I don't know what NOI means. :lol: What does NOI mean Brothers?

PEACE PURPLE:

NOI = Nation Of Islam.

Peace Brother!

Ohh! I knew that! :x: :nuts:


Thank you Brother!:D

Sam

Peace black....



I'll admit that NOI theology can be confusing, especially when one attempts to merge it with traditional Islam.

However, this is where an acute understanding of the ancient cultures in question comes into play: Kemet, Ancient Arabia, Sumeria, etc.

The Hon. Elijah Muhammad makes vast esoteric references to these cultures and their ideologies in his doctrine, and he did so for good reason.

AMIR FATIR gives some rather eloquent breakdowns in his various books about Elijah's teachings, relating them back to ancient times of when Islam was practiced prior to the coming of Muhammad.

It is only when you see these teachings with a renewed perspective does it begin to make sense; Elijah told us to "read something 7 times to gain the best understanding of it".



Well, although I like to call myself an intellectual and hang out at spots around the city and kick knowledge as a favorite past time...

I'm far from a scholar.
Not only haven't I a degree, but I barely graduated from high-school.

But I learned more about religion, politics, and history on my own than any educational istitution has ever taught me.


Problem is, not only do we in the West have limited access to knowledge, but most people around the world period have very limited access to knowledge.

Even when it comes to Islam, most of the Islamic literature you find in English speaking countries comes filtered down through Pakistan....a historically racist nation.


Most people around the world are functionally illiterate in their own languages and are at the mercies of men who use religion and knowledge to take advantage of them.

So I understand the 5,10, and 85% theories taught by Fard.

Infact most of his teachings were right on point....espcially the part about leaving North America and establishing a place for ourselves so that Allah can carry out the destruction.

To be honest, I'd tolerate most of the teachings but when you tell me there is no life after physical death and I have no Paradise to look forward to after a life time of pain and struggling to do right.

I might as well give up now.







Sam and Purple


No doubt there was a universal ancient knowledge that we all once shared as human beings as well as a common language.

The Chinese call their parents Mamma and Babba just like Nigerians.

The Japanese and Arawak Indians revered and poured libations to thier ancestors just like the Zulu and Shona tribes of Africa.




The question is, at what point did our univeral connection and knowledge begin to splinter and become corrrupt?

I submit to you (and even Elijah Muhammad admits) that our fall began way before white folks invaded our lands to subjegate us.

Their repeated invasions and eventual success over us was just the icing to top off the cake.

But our societies began to fall (so say thousands of years) before we even came into contanct with them.

The question is why?

Ralfa'il says
The question is, at what point did our univeral connection and knowledge begin to splinter and become corrrupt?

I submit to you (and even Elijah Muhammad admits) that our fall began way before white folks invaded our lands to subjegate us.

Their repeated invasions and eventual success over us was just the icing to top off the cake.

But our societies began to fall (so say thousands of years) before we even came into contanct with them.

The question is why?

Share with me what Brother Elijah Muhammad says about the beginning of the fall of man, and why. :coffee:

Purple

Peace beloved sista...


Share with me what Brother Elijah Muhammad says about the beginning of the fall of man, and why


Remember, I no longer believe fully in all of his teachings, so perhaps the bruthaz who are more studied in the teachings of Elijah can give the specifics of why and how our fall began according to him.

I just know that in Message to the Black Man and other literature, he speaks of the black man falling out of the favor of God (gods) millions of years before white men were put on this planet.

I agree with this in so much that it's not soley the white man's fault that we fell from glory but primarily ours.

Our wickedness and idolatry destroyed our social and moral fabric, created chaos and in-fighting among us, and made us VULNERABLE to outside attack from Europeans, Asians, and others to come in and take advanate of us.

I believe that when we worshipped the One true God and used the science and spiritual knowledge He gave us for righteous purposes (health-care, technology, worship of that Creator) we remained in God's favor.

But when we started letting our ego get the best of us and began worshiping the knowledge itself, worshipping our dead relatives and asking them for favors, worshipping demons and other spirits, and using the science that God gave us for purposes of witch-craft...

Our society then began to crumble and the social fabric began to unravvel.

Ralfa'il says
But when we started letting our ego get the best of us and began worshiping the knowledge itself, worshipping our dead relatives and asking them for favors, worshipping demons and other spirits, and using the science that God gave us for purposes of witch-craft...

Our society then began to crumble and the social fabric began to unravvel.

So even before the creation of Atum, you believe this type of worshipping was going on?

I remember reading somewhere, in one of the Ancient cities, (could be Sumeria) that people sailed across the river from the mountains to this Ancient city. That the city was functioning smoothly and peacefully. As time went by and these strangers begain to mulitiply, they wanted to take rule of the city, which eventually they did. They created their own spiritual practice and banned the spiritual practices of the native people. When they decovered that there spiritual practice wasn't working, they begain to adopt many of the natives teachings into their own system. Their system had no substance. It was filled with many do's and don't but essence of it wasn't helping the people spiritually. According to what I read in this text, the fall of man began at this point.

I'm not saying that this is true, I just don't know for sure if it is, but it is possible that man begain to scatter and become confused at that point.

Purple


So even before the creation of Atum, you believe this type of worshipping was going on?

Yes, but not among human beings but among those beings that pre-dated us.

Adam/Atum was the first human..



I remember reading somewhere, in one of the Ancient cities, (could be Sumeria) that people sailed across the river from the mountains to this Ancient city. That the city was functioning smoothly and peacefully. As time went by and these strangers begain to mulitiply, they wanted to take rule of the city, which eventually they did. They created their own spiritual practice and banned the spiritual practices of the native people. When they decovered that there spiritual practice wasn't working, they begain to adopt many of the natives teachings into their own system. Their system had no substance. It was filled with many do's and don't but essence of it wasn't helping the people spiritually. According to what I read in this text, the fall of man began at this point.

I'm not saying that this is true, I just don't know for sure if it is, but it is possible that man begain to scatter and become confused at that point.

This story is true but it's not just talking about the Sumerians who were overran by the Aryan Chaldeans, but also of the Tamils of India who were overran by another group of Aryans.

Also the Elamites were overran by a group of Aryans called Persians.



You know sis, the Sumerians of Babylon, the Tamils of India, and the Elamites of Iran were all related racially and linguistically and as I told you before the Hebrews were a clan (family) of these Sumerians.

They were a dark brown people with wavy/straight hair.



The Tamils of India had their own well planned and precisely laid out cities but were basically overran, enslaved, and murdered by the white Aryan tribes who swarmed down from the mountains fo first learn from them before trying to destroy them.

I have reason to believe that these Aryans were Assyrians also....the same Hyksos who invaded Egypt.


But they replaced the original Tamil religion (Jainism is as close as you'll find it) with thier own beliefs called "Vedism" and called it HINDUISM.

Sam

Peace black....


I went from being a typical American Christians who knew nothing about religion.

...to reading the entire bible and leaving the church while remaining a Christian.

...to leaving Christianity all together and rejecting all religion.

....to joining the Nation of Islam while not knowing the full teachings of the NOI.

...to leaving the Nation of Islam and LATER accepting it's full teachings after I left.

....to once again rejecting all religion but studying different religions.

....to finally reading the Koran in it's entirety and finally accepting it and Islam.



It's not that deep.

To me, Islam is the Koran...not hadith, scholarly work, and the behavior of Muslims.

Unlike many people who make religion their entire life, I make it only part of my life and use it as a guide.








Witness

Perhaps there is some truth that the white race came from us as a result of a mistake:

In the 2 Book of Kings Chapter 5 we read:

"20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said, Behold, my master hath spared Naaman this Syrian, in not receiving at his hands that which he brought: but, as the LORD liveth, I will run after him, and take somewhat of him. 21 So Gehazi followed after Naaman. And when Naaman saw him running after him, he lighted down from the chariot to meet him, and said, Is all well? 22 And he said, All is well. My master hath sent me, saying, Behold, even now there be come to me from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets: give them, I pray thee, a talent of silver, and two changes of garments. 23 And Naaman said, Be content, take two talents. And he urged him, and bound two talents of silver in two bags, with two changes of garments, and laid them upon two of his servants; and they bare them before him. 24 And when he came to the tower, he took them from their hand, and bestowed them in the house: and he let the men go, and they departed. 25 But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither. 26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants? 27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow."


So if his seed is supposed to be white as snow forever, and we believe this is the word of God...then that means his seed must still exist and still be white!Now for the rest of the story, and you can read this also in Scripture. As you will see, since Naaman was CURED, his seed would NOT still exist in the past state.Now this is from my Jewish Encylopedia...Quote:"Syrian general whose miraculous recovery from leprosy is told in II Kings v. The name, meaning "pleasantness," is held by Lagarde to represent Adonis, on the assumption that (Isa. xvii. 10) means "the plantings of Adonis." Naaman was a distinguished general who had often led the Syrians to victory. Stricken with leprosy, he was advised by a captive Israelitish maiden that the prophet Elisha could cure him. Naaman accordingly asked the Syrian king's permission to go to him, but the king, misunderstanding the words of the captive maiden, gave Naaman a letter to the King of Israel requesting him to cure Naaman of his leprosy. The latterwas troubled by the Syrian king's message, and Elisha advised him to send Naaman to him. Arrived at Elisha's door, Naaman received word from Elisha that if he would bathe seven times in the Jordan he would be cured. Naaman was greatly disappointed, as he had expected that the prophet would meet him in person and implore Yhwh to cure him, but his servants persuaded him to follow Elisha's behest, with the result that he was completely restored to health. He then returned with his retinue to Elisha, before whom he acknowledged Yhwh as his God and asked for two mules' burden of Israelitish earth that he might build an altar to Yhwh. Naaman also sought forgiveness of Yhwh for his involuntary adoration of the Syrian divinity Rimmon through the act of his master in leaning upon him during his devotions. Give ya props, nice try :) Peace!

Sam

Peace black....

Well, although I like to call myself an intellectual and hang out at spots around the city and kick knowledge as a favorite past time...

I'm far from a scholar.
Not only haven't I a degree, but I barely graduated from high-school.

But I learned more about religion, politics, and history on my own than any educational istitution has ever taught me.


Problem is, not only do we in the West have limited access to knowledge, but most people around the world period have very limited access to knowledge.

Even when it comes to Islam, most of the Islamic literature you find in English speaking countries comes filtered down through Pakistan....a historically racist nation.


Most people around the world are functionally illiterate in their own languages and are at the mercies of men who use religion and knowledge to take advantage of them.

So I understand the 5,10, and 85% theories taught by Fard.

Infact most of his teachings were right on point....espcially the part about leaving North America and establishing a place for ourselves so that Allah can carry out the destruction.

To be honest, I'd tolerate most of the teachings but when you tell me there is no life after physical death and I have no Paradise to look forward to after a life time of pain and struggling to do right.

I might as well give up now.

I agree with this 100%.

However, I still assert that the concept of after-life within the NOI doctrine is one that garners careful examination......

I asked you a while back, if you were familiar with what the NOI teaches, regarding where The Hon. Elijah Muhammad is? That was truly a sincere question.

For them to (allegedly) teach of no after-life, they certainly have seemed to reserved such an exsistence for Elijah.

Also, in the Theology Of Time, Elijah goes more in-depth about this teaching as well, debunking alot of the Judeo-Christian (and orthodox Islamic) ideals of a hedonistic, materialistic "Heaven" that many believe in.

[b]

Sam and Purple

No doubt there was a universal ancient knowledge that we all once shared as human beings as well as a common language.

The Chinese call their parents Mamma and Babba just like Nigerians.

The Japanese and Arawak Indians revered and poured libations to thier ancestors just like the Zulu and Shona tribes of Africa.

The question is, at what point did our univeral connection and knowledge begin to splinter and become corrrupt?

I submit to you (and even Elijah Muhammad admits) that our fall began way before white folks invaded our lands to subjegate us.

Their repeated invasions and eventual success over us was just the icing to top off the cake.

But our societies began to fall (so say thousands of years) before we even came into contanct with them.

The question is why?

I agree with this in part as well.

It is rather difficult to tell when man's descent from "grace" began; remember man is not a complete product, but a physical, mental and spiritual work in progress.

Take the Kemetians for example; they were the pinnacle of intellect and spirituality amongst humanity, but they still had questionable practices, such as excision.

But that make them far from heathenistic though.

More over, despite the few quarrels that non-white peoples had with each other from time to time, our people lived in relative harmony and peace with themselves, and each other.

Majority of time was spent for intellectual and architectual gains, right up until (and even during) the time of the coming of the Beast.

This is a far different cry from the nature of the Beast himself, as white people had little to show for themselves (prior to coming in contact with Original Peoples)--especially on the spiritual and intellectual front.........

They made a way of life out of war and conqeuring, and did nothing otherwise.

Therefore, I honestly have to say that the timeline of our people falling from grace runs rather parallel to our exposure to Europeanism.

A good book to do the knowledge on, regarding these ideas, is ICEMAN INHERITANCE, by Michael Bradley.


PEACE

Purple

[QUOTE]Peace beloved sista...


Share with me what Brother Elijah Muhammad says about the beginning of the fall of man, and why


Remember, I no longer believe fully in all of his teachings, so perhaps the bruthaz who are more studied in the teachings of Elijah can give the specifics of why and how our fall began according to him.

I think it's important, to remember that much of Elijah's teachings are metaphorical in nature, and not necessarily historical, as Elijah had stated many times within his own doctrine.

However, I think a couple of cases in which you (RALF) might be referring to are:

#1) The Dissention of YA'QUB. This is the STORY of one Original Man (in leadership of a few others) who caused dissent amongst the many tribes of Original Peoples......This ultimately led to the creation of the White man on a physiological level.

#2) The allegorical exile of the Indians from India.

This is why I mentioned AMIR FATIR, and his (rather brilliant) perspective on Elijah's teachings, because he begins to unravel the more allegorical and metaphorical nature of the teachings.

We as a people in modern times, due to this western mindstate, tend to see ideologies as far too literal, instead of gleaning from them a more divine understanding.

It is alleged that YA'QUB as a historical person never actually exsisted (much like JESUS, ABRAHAM, MOSES, etc did not physically exsist), but stood as a metaphor for the evolutionary (or de-evolutionary) forces that prompted man to adapt to the harsh climate that he migrated to.

I just know that in Message to the Black Man and other literature, he speaks of the black man falling out of the favor of God (gods) millions of years before white men were put on this planet.

See above.

I agree with this in so much that it's not soley the white man's fault that we fell from glory but primarily ours.

I agree with this as well, as stated in my previous post.......We were the key element in the creation of the white man to begin with; thus that negativity was simply an exfoliation from us.

Our wickedness and idolatry destroyed our social and moral fabric, created chaos and in-fighting among us, and made us VULNERABLE to outside attack from Europeans, Asians, and others to come in and take advanate of us.

This is something I have to disagree with.......What "idolatry"?


I believe that when we worshipped the One true God and used the science and spiritual knowledge He gave us for righteous purposes (health-care, technology, worship of that Creator) we remained in God's favor.

The problem with this, is that our people have always acknowledged the One True God.......They never stopped...........That is, up until the time we were subjugated with Christianity.

The Kemetians, Africans, Aztecs, Hindus, Chinese, etc never worshipped any other God besides The One.

It is simply a lack of understanding of their spiritual systems (usually by white people, and Judeo-Christian influenced institutions) that convinces us otherwise.

Kemetians for example, always worshipped NEBERT'CHER: "The Lord Of All The Worlds".

ATUM that was spoken of, was simply one aspect of NEBER, not NEBER itself.
The same applies to AUSAR, HERU, MA'AT, etc. Just functional aspects of the same ONE GOD.

Same with the HINDU and even ancient ARABIAN pantheons; the sciences of BRAHMA and TAWHIYD respectively are the source of VISHNU and ALLAH.......Those names for their respective forces simply hailed from the universal Divine Intelligence of each of those sciences.

Man's intimate knowledge of the Universal One has always been here, and never went anywhere until the coming of the Beast.


But when we started letting our ego get the best of us and began worshiping the knowledge itself, worshipping our dead relatives and asking them for favors, worshipping demons and other spirits, and using the science that God gave us for purposes of witch-craft...

Once again, this is a gross misunderstanding of all the sciences in queestion.

I would ask that you share where your knowledge of these notions comes from, as it does not run congruent to any of the spiritual systems of the Original Man.

Our society then began to crumble and the social fabric began to unravvel.

Actually our civilizations began to crumble, when superstition, aspirations of power, and greed began to creep in. This had nothing to do with our spiritual understanding.

I asked before, how Kemet, for example fits into your notions, when they were at the height of spiritual and intellectual knowledge, despit "worshipping ancestors" as you call it.

Besides, so-called "ancestor worship" is very much alive and well, even in today's modernized religions (Judeo-Christianity).

Jews venerate every single one of their Semitic/Hebrew/Jewish elders, from Noah on down to David.

The names of their "Prophets" (just another name for ancestor) is echoed in nearly all of their prayers, sung in all of their songs, spoken of in all of their rituals and customs, named their children after, etc.

What is the difference in what they do, and what you think our ancient people did?

Christians venerate everyone from Mary down to Paul, and even beyond that (for Catholics), from Saint Peter and the other disciples, to the Pope.

"POPE" itself simply means "FATHER" which is nothing but an ancestral term.

Same as with the Jews, all these people are mentioned in their Prayers, sung in their songs, named in their rituals, named their children after, etc.

What is the difference?

Muslims, of all people worship the Prophet Muhammad, his immediate family, and his sucessors to no end. Like their Judeo-Christian counterparts, they mention Muhammad in their prayers (Shahadah), pattern their lives after him (Sunnah), and set up religious institutions under the auspices of his sucessors (SUNNI and SHI'YAH).

The name Muhammad is one of the most common names on this planet, just like most contemporary names are just variations of Biblical names.

Again, what is the difference?

This is why it's important to KNOW about things, instead of simply BELIEVE them. Once one's understanding is enhanced, we can then see things as they are, instead of how they appear to be.

PEACE

Now for the rest of the story, and you can read this also in Scripture. As you will see, since Naaman was CURED, his seed would NOT still exist in the past state.Now this is from my Jewish Encylopedia...Quote:"Syrian general whose miraculous recovery from leprosy is told in II Kings v. The name, meaning "pleasantness," is held by Lagarde to represent Adonis, on the assumption that (Isa. xvii. 10) means "the plantings of Adonis." Naaman was a distinguished general who had often led the Syrians to victory. Stricken with leprosy, he was advised by a captive Israelitish maiden that the prophet Elisha could cure him. Naaman accordingly asked the Syrian king's permission to go to him, but the king, misunderstanding the words of the captive maiden, gave Naaman a letter to the King of Israel requesting him to cure Naaman of his leprosy. The latterwas troubled by the Syrian king's message, and Elisha advised him to send Naaman to him. Arrived at Elisha's door, Naaman received word from Elisha that if he would bathe seven times in the Jordan he would be cured. Naaman was greatly disappointed, as he had expected that the prophet would meet him in person and implore Yhwh to cure him, but his servants persuaded him to follow Elisha's behest, with the result that he was completely restored to health. He then returned with his retinue to Elisha, before whom he acknowledged Yhwh as his God and asked for two mules' burden of Israelitish earth that he might build an altar to Yhwh. Naaman also sought forgiveness of Yhwh for his involuntary adoration of the Syrian divinity Rimmon through the act of his master in leaning upon him during his devotions. Give ya props, nice try :) Peace!

This is why I don't use the Bible as a historical reference; it's far too easily debatable and totally subjective.

The problem with this, is the misconception that leprousy is necessarily and/or always a dermal condition.

There are lepers that don't exhibit skin discoloration at all.

The Caucasian strain is not the result of leprousy, but rather Albinoism.

Once again, do away with BELIEF, and deal with the KNOWLEDGE.

PEACE

GP

Peace...

Now for the rest of the story, and you can read this also in Scripture. As you will see, since Naaman was CURED, his seed would NOT still exist in the past state.Now this is from my Jewish Encylopedia...Quote:"Syrian general whose miraculous recovery from leprosy is told in II Kings v. The name, meaning "pleasantness," is held by Lagarde to represent Adonis, on the assumption that (Isa. xvii. 10) means "the plantings of Adonis." Naaman was a distinguished general who had often led the Syrians to victory. Stricken with leprosy, he was advised by a captive Israelitish maiden that the prophet Elisha could cure him. Naaman accordingly asked the Syrian king's permission to go to him, but the king, misunderstanding the words of the captive maiden, gave Naaman a letter to the King of Israel requesting him to cure Naaman of his leprosy. The latterwas troubled by the Syrian king's message, and Elisha advised him to send Naaman to him. Arrived at Elisha's door, Naaman received word from Elisha that if he would bathe seven times in the Jordan he would be cured. Naaman was greatly disappointed, as he had expected that the prophet would meet him in person and implore Yhwh to cure him, but his servants persuaded him to follow Elisha's behest, with the result that he was completely restored to health. He then returned with his retinue to Elisha, before whom he acknowledged Yhwh as his God and asked for two mules' burden of Israelitish earth that he might build an altar to Yhwh. Naaman also sought forgiveness of Yhwh for his involuntary adoration of the Syrian divinity Rimmon through the act of his master in leaning upon him during his devotions. Give ya props, nice try Peace!


Brutha GP I suggest you go back and read the story again:


"25 But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither. 26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants? 27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow."




Ofcourse Naaman was cured...it was GEHAZI and his descendants that was supposed to be cursed with whiteness for ever!


It's all about comprehension and detail black man.... :golf:

Sam
Peace and prosperity....


However, I still assert that the concept of after-life within the NOI doctrine is one that garners careful examination......

I asked you a while back, if you were familiar with what the NOI teaches, regarding where The Hon. Elijah Muhammad is? That was truly a sincere question.
Well, I don't know if I'd call it the "NOI" teachings of Elijah's whereabouts because the Nation of Islam teaches there is no life after physical death.

Now Farrakhan on the other hand, has said that Elijah Muhammad is physically alive, then he said that only his "spirit" existed through him, then he said that he contacted Elijah in a dream in the mother ship.

So it's hard to nail down exactly what he believes concerning the matter.


For them to (allegedly) teach of no after-life, they certainly have seemed to reserved such an exsistence for Elijah.
I agree, and it's one of the reasons I left.
The confusion of whether there was or wasn't a life beyong this one physically didn't make sense.

Either something is..or it isn't.

Either we all have a spirit to live beyond our physical body, or we don't...why is Elijah the only one to enjoy this privalege?



Also, in the Theology Of Time, Elijah goes more in-depth about this teaching as well, debunking alot of the Judeo-Christian (and orthodox Islamic) ideals of a hedonistic, materialistic "Heaven" that many believe in.
This is true.

Problem is, Elijah said that he was the LAST ONE and after him there would be no more messengers.
He was clear about his death and on life after death and never waivered.

All this stuff about him being alive on the mother ship came AFTER his death/departure/transition.




I agree with this in part as well.

It is rather difficult to tell when man's descent from "grace" began; remember man is not a complete product, but a physical, mental and spiritual work in progress.
So you're saying that we are "evolving" as humans rather than degenerating?



Take the Kemetians for example; they were the pinnacle of intellect and spirituality amongst humanity, but they still had questionable practices, such as excision.

But that make them far from heathenistic though.

More over, despite the few quarrels that non-white peoples had with each other from time to time, our people lived in relative harmony and peace with themselves, and each other.
That can be argued, but I agree that basically the genocide and slaughter that the white race brought was unheard of among our people.



Majority of time was spent for intellectual and architectual gains, right up until (and even during) the time of the coming of the Beast.

This is a far different cry from the nature of the Beast himself, as white people had little to show for themselves (prior to coming in contact with Original Peoples)--especially on the spiritual and intellectual front.........

Totally agree with this one.



They made a way of life out of war and conqeuring, and did nothing otherwise.
Well...they were more barbaric and unsophiticated in the way the waged war becaise of their mountainous savage past as nomads and cave-dwellers...but conquering and warring was the way of life for MOST people...not just whites.

You read the history of Kemet conquering the Nubian, Lybians, Assyrians, Canaanites, and others.



Therefore, I honestly have to say that the timeline of our people falling from grace runs rather parallel to our exposure to Europeanism.

I'll agree that the DESTRUCTION of our people and our civilization for the most part runs parrallel to our exposure to the Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans and others.

But I believe our downfall on a moral/spiritual and intellectual level was much sooner.

Most empires rot from with in, making themselves vulnerable to outside attack.


to be continued.....

Sam



I think it's important, to remember that much of Elijah's teachings are metaphorical in nature, and not necessarily historical, as Elijah had stated many times within his own doctrine.
Well now wait a minute...

Elijah Muhammad claimed to be bringing the real raw Islam to his people to bring us out of this "mystery God" condition.

So now are you telling me he's gave us more fables and myths on top of the ones we already had?



However, I think a couple of cases in which you (RALF) might be referring to are:

#1) The Dissention of YA'QUB. This is the STORY of one Original Man (in leadership of a few others) who caused dissent amongst the many tribes of Original Peoples......This ultimately led to the creation of the White man on a physiological level.

#2) The allegorical exile of the Indians from India.

For Elijah Muhammad, stating that the Indians were exiled form India wasn't an "allegory" but a FACT.

He as well as his followers did (and many still do) truly believe that the Indians were exiles from the land of India 16,000 years ago and it's in his very teachings/lessons.



This is why I mentioned AMIR FATIR, and his (rather brilliant) perspective on Elijah's teachings, because he begins to unravel the more allegorical and metaphorical nature of the teachings.

We as a people in modern times, due to this western mindstate, tend to see ideologies as far too literal, instead of gleaning from them a more divine understanding.

It is alleged that YA'QUB as a historical person never actually exsisted (much like JESUS, ABRAHAM, MOSES, etc did not physically exsist), but stood as a metaphor for the evolutionary (or de-evolutionary) forces that prompted man to adapt to the harsh climate that he migrated to.
I don't know about all that bro...

Both Farad and Elijah as well as the vast majority of NOI members TRULY believe that Yacub existed...even more so than Catholics believe in the Christian prophets.

I also truly believe that Issa, Musa, and Ibrahim existed...we may disagree on thier names and even their activities but to question thier existance is a little bold.

We can't simply call everything a lie and say history only started in 1966.




This is something I have to disagree with.......What "idolatry"?

Idolatry is the worship and veneration of idols (statues, trees, symbols, and other inanimate objects).




The problem with this, is that our people have always acknowledged the One True God.......They never stopped...........That is, up until the time we were subjugated with Christianity.
I agree, as was the case with the Arabs at the time of Muhammad.

We ACKNOWLEDGED the One true God but WORSHIPPED others than Him...and that was the problem.



The Kemetians, Africans, Aztecs, Hindus, Chinese, etc never worshipped any other God besides The One.
You know this isn't true black....

Many might have worshiped The God ALONG SIDE of other gods and idols, and many worshipped idols and thier dead ancestors alone...but few actually worshipped that One true God by Himself.




It is simply a lack of understanding of their spiritual systems (usually by white people, and Judeo-Christian influenced institutions) that convinces us otherwise.
You don't have to believe the white man about this....you can go to any traditional society and find people still worshipping their ancestors and idols and asking them for favors.


Kemetians for example, always worshipped NEBERT'CHER: "The Lord Of All The Worlds".

ATUM that was spoken of, was simply one aspect of NEBER, not NEBER itself.
The same applies to AUSAR, HERU, MA'AT, etc. Just functional aspects of the same ONE GOD.
Again, did they worship others also?
If so...this was a big sin.



Same with the HINDU and even ancient ARABIAN pantheons; the sciences of BRAHMA and TAWHIYD respectively are the source of VISHNU and ALLAH.......Those names for their respective forces simply hailed from the universal Divine Intelligence of each of those sciences.

Man's intimate knowledge of the Universal One has always been here, and never went anywhere until the coming of the Beast.
Again, white people worshipped other than the One true God also so it's not about black and white.
The Hebrews were among the first to RE-INTRODUCE the world back to serving the Creator and Him alone and they weren't white but brown.

It just so happens that most whites when they came into contact with us had become Christian and reformed of most of thier paganism when most of us were still practicing ours and it seemed as if monotheism was a "white" religion.





Actually our civilizations began to crumble, when superstition, aspirations of power, and greed began to creep in. This had nothing to do with our spiritual understanding.
I agree, but it CORRUPTED our spiritual understanding.




I asked before, how Kemet, for example fits into your notions, when they were at the height of spiritual and intellectual knowledge, despit "worshipping ancestors" as you call it.
At the very heigh of our power, we weren't worshipping ancestors but actually worshiping The God.
Then started worshipping the angels/gods...then worshipping the dead kings....then the dead ancestors in general in that order.



Besides, so-called "ancestor worship" is very much alive and well, even in today's modernized religions (Judeo-Christianity).

Jews venerate every single one of their Semitic/Hebrew/Jewish elders, from Noah on down to David.

The names of their "Prophets" (just another name for ancestor) is echoed in nearly all of their prayers, sung in all of their songs, spoken of in all of their rituals and customs, named their children after, etc.

What is the difference in what they do, and what you think our ancient people did?

Christians venerate everyone from Mary down to Paul, and even beyond that (for Catholics), from Saint Peter and the other disciples, to the Pope.

"POPE" itself simply means "FATHER" which is nothing but an ancestral term.

Same as with the Jews, all these people are mentioned in their Prayers, sung in their songs, named in their rituals, named their children after, etc.

What is the difference?
Honoring the ancestors with graves and memorials is one thing.

Offering them valuables and foods and trying to conjure up thier spirits to ask for favors is another.



Muslims, of all people worship the Prophet Muhammad, his immediate family, and his sucessors to no end. Like their Judeo-Christian counterparts, they mention Muhammad in their prayers (Shahadah), pattern their lives after him (Sunnah), and set up religious institutions under the auspices of his sucessors (SUNNI and SHI'YAH).
Brutha, I'm suprised that you'd say that.

Muslims don't worship Muhammad or his family...they honor them but worship GOD and GOD only.

Find me Muslims who pray to statues of Muhammad, burn incense to him or leave drinks, food, and try to conjure up his spirit.

GP

Peace...

Now for the rest of the story, and you can read this also in Scripture. As you will see, since Naaman was CURED, his seed would NOT still exist in the past state.Now this is from my Jewish Encylopedia...Quote:"Syrian general whose miraculous recovery from leprosy is told in II Kings v. The name, meaning "pleasantness," is held by Lagarde to represent Adonis, on the assumption that (Isa. xvii. 10) means "the plantings of Adonis." Naaman was a distinguished general who had often led the Syrians to victory. Stricken with leprosy, he was advised by a captive Israelitish maiden that the prophet Elisha could cure him. Naaman accordingly asked the Syrian king's permission to go to him, but the king, misunderstanding the words of the captive maiden, gave Naaman a letter to the King of Israel requesting him to cure Naaman of his leprosy. The latterwas troubled by the Syrian king's message, and Elisha advised him to send Naaman to him. Arrived at Elisha's door, Naaman received word from Elisha that if he would bathe seven times in the Jordan he would be cured. Naaman was greatly disappointed, as he had expected that the prophet would meet him in person and implore Yhwh to cure him, but his servants persuaded him to follow Elisha's behest, with the result that he was completely restored to health. He then returned with his retinue to Elisha, before whom he acknowledged Yhwh as his God and asked for two mules' burden of Israelitish earth that he might build an altar to Yhwh. Naaman also sought forgiveness of Yhwh for his involuntary adoration of the Syrian divinity Rimmon through the act of his master in leaning upon him during his devotions. Give ya props, nice try Peace!


Brutha GP I suggest you go back and read the story again:


"25 But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither. 26 And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants? 27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow."




Ofcourse Naaman was cured...it was GEHAZI and his descendants that was supposed to be cursed with whiteness for ever!


It's all about comprehension and detail black man.... :golf:




Sam


There are lepers that don't exhibit skin discoloration at all.

Leprosy is just a mistranslation of the actual skin disease that was used as a curse in the bible more than likely what we call "vitiligo" today.

Infact, in the original King James versions of the bible it wasn't known as "leprosy" but "the dreaded skin disease".

Leprosy affects the nerves and muscles,not the skin...so this was obviously a mistranslation of some actual curse/illness.

It's marked by a depigmenation of the skin but it was very real in those days and is still seen as a curse in India and Pakistan.



The Caucasian strain is not the result of leprousy, but rather Albinoism.

We can't say that Caucasians are totally a result of albinoism because there are many Caucasians with dark hair and dark eyes without any other outward signs of albinism.

Chaldeans, Kurds, Canaanites, Greeks....all these were Caucasians with tanned skin and dark features...but still Caucasians none the less.

Albinos are totally white.

But I will agree that the blone "nordic type" of white people probably are a result of some type of curse or albinism.

PEACE RALF:

Sam
Peace and prosperity....

Well, I don't know if I'd call it the "NOI" teachings of Elijah's whereabouts because the Nation of Islam teaches there is no life after physical death.

Now Farrakhan on the other hand, has said that Elijah Muhammad is physically alive, then he said that only his "spirit" existed through him, then he said that he contacted Elijah in a dream in the mother ship.

So it's hard to nail down exactly what he believes concerning the matter.

I agree with this.

Please keep in mind though, that FARRAKHAN is not the only authority for NOI teachings, even though he is the most popular.

Many NOI Muslims had abandoned FARRAKHAN's teachings, because ofwhat appeared to be his lack of clarity regarding the teachings.

However, there are a few other versions of the NOI that still exsist today: The Lost-Found NOI (http://www.silismuhammad.com/home2.html) under SILAS MUHAMMAD, and the United NOI (http://unitednationofislam.com/) under ROYAL-ALLAH, and the MUJADDID COMMUNITY OF THE NOI (http://www.joshuasappeal3.com/), under SOLOMON MUHAMMAD.

There is another branch as well, but I'm not certain as to the name at this moment.

Here we see the legacy of Islam from ancient to modern times; Islam here in the west is just as divided afer ELIJAH's death, as it was after the Prophet Muhammad himself.

However, suffice it to say, that each one teaches a different perspective on after-life, amongst other things, than the others do.

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I left.
The confusion of whether there was or wasn't a life beyong this one physically didn't make sense.

Either something is..or it isn't.

Either we all have a spirit to live beyond our physical body, or we don't...why is Elijah the only one to enjoy this privalege?

I left for a different set of reasons; it wasn't that I didn't agree with the NOI's teachings, it's that I felt that the Nation(s) as a whole was spiritually and culturally stagnant.

However, that's why I continuously state that Elijah's teachings in and of themselves (regardless of his current sucessor) needs an esoteric approach in order to be understood.

AMIR FATIR whom I've mentioned more than once, takes a more Eastern approach to interpretting Elijah's teachings.

Check out his book "WHY DOES MUHAMMAD (AND ANY MUSLIM) MURDER THE DEVIL", for an in-depth inspection of Elijah's teachings.

This is true.

Problem is, Elijah said that he was the LAST ONE and after him there would be no more messengers.
He was clear about his death and on life after death and never waivered.

All this stuff about him being alive on the mother ship came AFTER his death/departure/transition.

I don't recall ever reading that ELIJAH said that we as humans do not have a soul or spirit, or any sort of animative energy that sustains us.

Do you have any precise quotes from him to that end?

Also, Elijah did speak about the wheel in his book FALL OF AMERICA.

So you're saying that we are "evolving" as humans rather than degenerating?

Unfortunately no..... :(

Right now, in our current predicament, we are indeed degenerating--physically, mentally and especially spiritually.

The White man has stunted and retarded the growth of every living thing on this planet, with his rampant meanderings.

Agree with his teachings or not, Elijah did say that his time would soon come to an end.

That can be argued, but I agree that basically the genocide and slaughter that the white race brought was unheard of among our people.

True indeed.

Totally agree with this one.

Very good. :)

Well...they were more barbaric and unsophiticated in the way the waged war becaise of their mountainous savage past as nomads and cave-dwellers...but conquering and warring was the way of life for MOST people...not just whites.

Agreed, however bear in mind, that war in and of itself was utilized for a far different host of reasons for us, than for them. And most often times, other more civilized, diplomatic approaches were achieved as an alternative for us.

Even before war commenced amongst our people, treaties were signed, stating that an impending war would not last beyond a certain time, and that the winning party would allocate a certain amount of resources to the losing party. Orphans and widows would be taken care of by the winner......

As you stated, was was NEVER utilized as a means to decimate an entire people Africans all over the continent (not just the Kemau) rivaled, as did the numerous Native American tribes.......However neither felt a devastation to their local populaces as a result.

This only took place when the White man arrived.

Even amongst themselves, war for white people was the most savage of any creature on the planet......

Take the Norse and Normans for instance:

Both would raid villages, simply for the pleasure of doing so. It's not as if they were in search of food, because they would burn the food depositories that they found.......

They couldn't have been looking for wives, because captive women were raped and left for dead.....

What was their purpose, aside from satisfying their bloodlust? :(

The purpose for war for us was totally different for the White man, just as the purpose of Slavery was different. For that matter, the purpose for EVERYTHING we did was different for him; perverted, tainted, and exploited.

You read the history of Kemet conquering the Nubian, Lybians, Assyrians, Canaanites, and others.

Indeed, but my understanding of each might be a little different from yours......

Regarding the Lybians, who were for the most part nomads (the Kemetians despised nomads), the "wars" between them was akin to running local "gangs" out of their territory.

For the Nubians, who were Kemet's sister nation, a double-standard was in place, for the Nubians represented a portion of the populace that wished to live in governmental autonomy, whilst enjoying the benefits of living under the auspices of a Kemetic protectorate.

It wasn't until the reign of the Sheba's, that Nubia became a kingdom of her own, and ironically so, since Kemet was by that time on a steady decline.

For the Assyrians, whom I understand to be a Eurasian peoples, the Kemetians didn't strike first in that instance.

The Phoenicians (CANAAN is yet another false Biblical term) are a slightly different story though. Their relationship with Kemet is just as complicated as that with the Nubians to the south, but I'm more or less inclined to agree with your assertions about them being conquered.

I'll agree that the DESTRUCTION of our people and our civilization for the most part runs parrallel to our exposure to the Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans and others.

Agreed.

But I believe our downfall on a moral/spiritual and intellectual level was much sooner.

Most empires rot from with in, making themselves vulnerable to outside attack.

I somewhat agree, but could you give some historical references for this?

One of the main instances is with KHUEN-ATEN.........In this instance, it was a black man that stagnated his own people.

For all of his praising of his so-called "ONE GOD" (which was the worship of THE SUN), he let Kemet succumb to hedonism and overall laziness.

to be continued.....

I await your response, my brother.

PEACE

GP

Peace...


Sam

Leprosy is just a mistranslation of the actual skin disease that was used as a curse in the bible more than likely what we call "vitiligo" today.

Infact, in the original King James versions of the bible it wasn't known as "leprosy" but "the dreaded skin disease".

Interesting; I had never heard of this perspective before........Would you care to expound more upon it?

Leprosy affects the nerves and muscles,not the skin...so this was obviously a mistranslation of some actual curse/illness.

Precisely; this is my understanding as well.

We can't say that Caucasians are totally a result of albinoism because there are many Caucasians with dark hair and dark eyes without any other outward signs of albinism.

Chaldeans, Kurds, Canaanites, Greeks....all these were Caucasians with tanned skin and dark features...but still Caucasians none the less.

The difference being, each of the groups that you named here, have all had contact with Afro-Asiatic peoples at one time or another.

Because these people were mostly nomadic during the beginning of their adventures, and because Afro-Asiatic peoples originally inhabited the lands in which these people found themselves wandering in, there's no coincidence that they would quite possibly pick up a portion of the Afro-Asiatic strain........Afterall, they picked up aspects of Black culture and linguistics along the way.

Albinos are totally white.

True indeed, but even Albinoism has a pathology of its own, that manifests itself over generations........

Take dalmation dogs for instance; they are simply the result of a "pure" Albino dog breeding back into the strain, and that stagnant gene stretching out over several generations. Once isolated, the genotype becomes perpetuated, until it gets totally breeded back in, at which point Dalmations will no longer exsist.

Same with Causasians.

But I will agree that the blone "nordic type" of white people probably are a result of some type of curse or albinism.

I agree.

CHEIKH ANTA DIOP spoke of the varying levels of Caucasianism; the most dominant (or recessive, depending on how you look at it) beginning from the so-called Nordic types, and ending with the so-called Mediterranean types--worst of the worst, to the "best of the worst".

PEACE

Sam

Peace

Interesting; I had never heard of this perspective before........Would you care to expound more upon it?

Main Entry: vit·i·li·go
Pronunciation: "vi-t&l-'I-(")gO, -'E-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin, tetter
: a skin disorder manifested by smooth white spots on various parts of the body


This is what Michael Jackson is reported to have.



"Leprosy is a very enigmatic subject. Often it is associated with the Bible but only in the older versions. Most of the later translations render the Hebrew and Greek words as "Terrible Skin Disease" etc. and yet, paradoxically, "Leprosy", as we know it today, basically is not a skin disease. Essentially, it is a disease which affects the nerves, although not the central nervous system. Only the peripheral nerves and their cutaneous branches are involved. What then was the "leprosy" of the Bible? Was it what we call "Hansen’s Disease" today? The answer is No. The Hebrew word "Tsara’ath" may have included Hansen’s Disease or what is called True Leprosy today, but even this is doubted

That Hebrew word is not a precise medical term referring to a specific disease . Rather does is seem to refer to a whole range of disfiguring conditions that resulted in rejection by a society that, in its ignorance, attributed such afflictions to punishment from God. Today, there are about thirty conditions which can be confused with early and late Hansen’s Disease and these are discussed in "DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSIS".

Some references to "leprosy" in the Bible obviously refer to conditions other than Hansen’s Disease. "Naaman the Leper", (2 Kings 5:27) for example, was said to be "leprous" - as "white as snow" . This, clearly, is not what we call leprosy (Hansen’s Disease) today because Hansen’s Disease does not cause the skin to become white. The condition which can be confused with leprosy and which causes a whitening of the skin, is Leucaderma or Vitiligo. In true leprosy or Hansen’s Disease, there can be some loss of pigment in the skin but it never becomes white because of the disease. Similarly, in Exodus 13:44, we read of a person with a hand "leprous and white as snow". In Leviticus 13:10 and 20, Biblical "leprosy" even resulted in the hair turning white. This does not happen in patients with Hansen’s Disease, nor is their scalp (except in vary rare cases) affected by the disease as in Leviticus 13:42. However, there can be loss of eyebrows (Madarosis) because that is one of the COOLER areas of the body. Other patches, in cooler areas, also can suffer hair loss. "


http://www.webspawner.com/users/LEPBIBLE/





The difference being, each of the groups that you named here, have all had contact with Afro-Asiatic peoples at one time or another.

Because these people were mostly nomadic during the beginning of their adventures, and because Afro-Asiatic peoples originally inhabited the lands in which these people found themselves wandering in, there's no coincidence that they would quite possibly pick up a portion of the Afro-Asiatic strain........Afterall, they picked up aspects of Black culture and linguistics along the way.

Well, aside from the fact that since ALL races originated from the black....this could be said about the Chinese and Japanese races as well, but we know they are a separate race.

The Medes (ancestors of the Kurds), Chaldeans, Persians, and Greeks had contact with black people but as you said concerning Nefertiti...was that enough to actually change their features and make them no longer white?

And there are plenty of people who are half white but come out with golden hair and tannish skin.

Being mixed with African ancestry provides a more "blended" and soft look than the hardened constrasting features of coarse dark hair and white skin most of these people exhibit.




True indeed, but even Albinoism has a pathology of its own, that manifests itself over generations........

Take dalmation dogs for instance; they are simply the result of a "pure" Albino dog breeding back into the strain, and that stagnant gene stretching out over several generations. Once isolated, the genotype becomes perpetuated, until it gets totally breeded back in, at which point Dalmations will no longer exsist.


I believe albinos may change during generations of breeding...but they will still remain albinos none the less.

In other words, you aren't gonna get people with dark hair and eyes like the typical Italians from the blonde and blue eyed Nordics of Scandinavia.

From blondes, you will only get blondes.



I agree.

CHEIKH ANTA DIOP spoke of the varying levels of Caucasianism; the most dominant (or recessive, depending on how you look at it) beginning from the so-called Nordic types, and ending with the so-called Mediterranean types--worst of the worst, to the "best of the worst"

I think the so-called Mediterranean types were the ORIGINAL whites.

But I don't think all whites were caucasian.

Some of them were driven into the caves like the Chaldeans, Aryans, and Persian..and some of them had no history of barbarianism like the Greeks, Romans, and Phonecians.

I believe the blond white people (caucasian or not) started off as some type of weak blooded outcasts who were thought to be cursed and driven off to be separate among themselves.

Even today, the "dumb blond" stereotype rings true among many whites.

They see the blond hair and blue eyes as a weaker more degenerate side of themselves.

PEACE RIVER:

In my response to PURPLE in the QUESTIONS thread, I asserted that alot of our understandings of most things spiritual have been filtered through western understanding.

God for many ancient peoples never meant the same thing it means for people in today's modern world.

It doesn't (necessarily) mean that we can fly, read minds, shoot laser beams, or other such outlandish stuff (though those things aren't necessarily ruled out).
Brothah Sam,

I am in the process right now of trying to discern what is true and what is simply from this filter. I want to understand what you all are saying though I've never been encouraged to do so. What is this "truth" that cannot stand up to scrutiny?

Reading ya'll is making me hungry. I don't know where to start first or what book to read first.

peace,

I don't think that's what our sister river was saying at all. I think she was asking me & others a ? more than making a statement...........
Yes that was just my way. I like to use satire sometimes (you notice).

I don't believe that we created them in the sense of scooping them up from the clay and breathing the breath of life into their nostrils but I do believe they came from us.

Mostly I was saaying that since white people have no creative power and no prophet was sent to them and they are the only people on Earth who cannot stand the sun they of necessity could not have shared in our supposed godship.

You guys have since this post gone much deeper into the question of where they came from and although we still don't know I find your discussion very interesting.

You see, this is NOT what's up. REPENT! OR YOU'LL BE DAMNED! LOL Sister River made an intelligent observation, which is her GOD given right.

River, have you seen the pictures of the "Future" Buddha (Maitreya (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~paddler/bodhisattva/maitne.htm)) sitting on a throne in western style? This is a representation of what our ancient Afro-asiatic ancestors prophesied that Afrikan (Indigenous) peoples worldwide would suffer but would be "Re-born in the West". So to answer your question, western civilisation had to come about so that we could be made "new".

AAAUUUMMM
I know that this in no way supports the white man's justification that he did us a favor by brutalising and enslaving us. To fully understand what you are pointing out to me will require more study. So keep doing whatcha doing.

Third, how do you think white people got here? They weren't here prior to 6,000 to 8,000 years ago.

PEACE
That's astonishing! Six thousand years ago coincides with the Age of Light the man was talking about in the article Info-moetry posted in his y2k thread. A star goes nova, worship of lucifer begins and white men appear on Earth. Is this a coincidence or is this all coming together?

That's astonishing! Six thousand years ago coincides with the Age of Light the man was talking about in the article Info-moetry posted in his y2k thread. A star goes nova, worship of lucifer begins and white men appear on Earth. Is this a coincidence or is this all coming together?

peace,

It's all coming 2-Gether sister!!!!!!!!

peace Queen