Being Muslim and a vegetarian (meaning one who obeys the Supreme Law of the Universe: “Thou Shalt Not Kill.”), I am appalled at the constant subtle suggestions and messages – via both the print and electronic media – designed to discourage Muslims (and everyone else for that matter) from choosing vegetarianism as a way of life...

Recent studies by the National Council of Churches show that African-Americans are embracing the religion of Islam in large numbers, and there are other studies indicating that an increasing number of African-Americans and African-American Muslims are choosing vegetarianism as a way of life...

It is my belief that all the prophets were vegetarians – from Prophet Ibrahim (saw) to Prophet Muhammad (saw), including Prophet Isa (Jesus) (saw). Allah (God) is everywhere, thus His spirit dwells in us, and just as I wouldn’t want any dead animals in my home, where I live, Allah (God) does not want dead animals in His temple (your body), where His spirit dwells...

I believe that one who is striving for spiritual attainment should abstain from all that pertains to the animal, and this means the killing and eating of them also. All life is sacred, and all life comes from Allah (swt), and we have no right to destroy it. Killing animals is the destruction of life, and therefore in direct defiance of the Supreme Law of the Universe.

The Bible does not simply say, “Thou shalt not kill humans.” It says broadly, “Thou shalt not kill.” When there is no food, someone may eat animal flesh in order to keep from starving. That is another thing. But it is most sinful to regularly maintain slaughterhouses just to satisfy the human tongue. There are some Muslims who say that the Holy Qur’an (Muslim Holy Book) enjoins the eating of some animal flesh, and this is true, but let us look at this enjoinment in its proper perspective:

The Qur’an does not say that you must eat animal flesh; it says that there is some animal flesh that you can eat. The Qur'anic enjoinment of the eating of animal flesh takes into account the geographical area and the environmental conditions in which one lives, for it would be impossible for an Eskimo to be a vegetarian...

The same can be said of the desert tribes of northern Africa and the Bedouin tribes of Saudi Arabia, where there is little or no vegetation. Many millions of people inhabit lands where there is little or no vegetation, and they are, or course, exempt from the Universal Law. In His infinite wisdom Allah (swt) has provided us with a holy book prescribed for all mankind, and the Holy Qur’an was written in a country whose mean temperature is 85º Fahrenheit year 'round!...

All food, according to Islamic law, should be “halal,” i.e., allowed by the law, and “tayyib,” i.e., good, pure, wholesome and agreeable. Under the latter condition sometimes even lawful things become forbidden. For example, if a Muslim contracts colon cancer (caused by animal flesh putrefying in the colon), or if a Muslim sister contracts vaginal cancer from consuming excessive amounts of beef (check recent nutrition reports on the effect of beef consumption in the U.S.), then that beef – though lawful – becomes forbidden...

It is impossible for a vegetarian to contract colon cancer, because vegetables, fruits and grains pass through the colon. There have also been many reports of diseased fish being caught with cancerous gills that are cut out and then sent to market to be sold. These are the reasons why a Muslim vegetarian abstains from not only the forbidden, but even that which is lawful.

As a student of nutrition, I am firmly convinced that in addition to abstaining from all animal flesh as food, we should never eat anything white. White food is refined, processed and denatured (e.g., salt, sugar, milk, white flour and all white-flour products, and also eggs, which contain large amounts of cholesterol). These kinds of foods – in addition to the heavy consumption of animal flesh – are mainly responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths that occur each year due to high blood pressure, strokes, stomach and colon cancer, and heart attacks due to arteriosclerosis, which is the hardening of the arteries due to too much animal fat and cholesterol in the bloodstream. Simply put, animal flesh and white food is killing us, and we are digging our graves with our teeth!...

We are entering the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, and as the Aquarian Age will be devoid of all that pertains to the animal, such things as alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and animal flesh as food will gradually disappear, for the outraged human body will no longer consent to receive what is has no use for. These poisons play no part in the development of a clean, healthy body. We are constantly being warned about cholesterol and the danger of too much animal fat in our diets. It would behoove many of our Muslim brothers and sisters to eliminate animal flesh from their diets altogether, for, in addition to the above reasons, too many of them are overweight.

We must eat what Allah (swt) intended for us to eat, i.e., fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, honey and natural juices; foods that provide optimum health for His created beings. The fact is, we need nothing else to sustain us throughout our existence on this planet...

We are entering the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, and as the Aquarian Age will be devoid of all that pertains to the animal, such things as alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and animal flesh as food will gradually disappear, for the outraged human body will no longer consent to receive what is has no use for. These poisons play no part in the development of a clean, healthy body. We are constantly being warned about cholesterol and the danger of too much animal fat in our diets. It would behoove many of our Muslim brothers and sisters to eliminate animal flesh from their diets altogether, for, in addition to the above reasons, too many of them are overweight...

Aqil--

I just have a few questions.

1. What makes this "Universal Law" so "universal". All the laws
are based on two.....Thou shalt love no God but me and Love
thy neighbor.....ALL OTHERS ARE BASED ON THEM.

2. Just as you said the the Universal Law of Thou shalt not kill
has no specifics as to killing man or animal.....ARE PLANTS AND
ALL OTHER VEGITATION "LIVING"....so we would be killing
them also right?

3. Is it your contention that vegetarians do get cancer or many
of the other diseases that flesh eaters get?

Let me know what you think.

peace and luv

Dre'

1. What makes this 'Universal Law' so 'universal'? All the laws are based on two...Thou shalt love no God but Me and love thy neighbor.....ALL OTHERS ARE BASED ON THEM.The law that states: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" is universal because it is a law that pertains to the entire Universe. And I would disagree that all other laws are based on what Jesus said.

2. Just as you said the the Universal law of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' has no specifics as to man or animal, aren't plants and all other vegetation "living"?Yes.

So we would be killing them also, right?No. One does not "kill" plants and/or vegetables that God created and has provided for us to eat. In fact, God, in His Infinite Wisdom, created food before He created man. Bananas are green when plucked from the vine. They actually ripen OFF the vine...turning from green to a bright yellow, which is when they supposed to be eaten. Thus the banana is live on and off the vine, as are all other edible plants.

To reiterate, we must eat what God intended for us to eat, i.e., fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, honey and natural juices; foods that provide optimum health for His created beings. The fact is, we need nothing else to sustain us throughout our existence on this planet...

The law of THOU SHALL NOT KILL....Is based on love thy neighbor.

I think you confuse decaying with ripening. Animals decay after they are killed...just as plants. God gave us dominon over all OTHER creatures on earth.

I do agree that we should be more mindful of what we put in our temples. However, my take is that we as humans overdue everything. We eat TOO MUCH meat...especially red.....We eat TOO MANY sweets....including fruits....And it is possible to eat TOO MUCH vegitation. The fact is that we need the protein from fish and other meats. We just eat too much. 6 oz of meat a day is sufficient..... We eat more like 2 pounds. The reason for our sicknesses is we do not know how to do ANYTHING in moderation.

The law of THOU SHALL NOT KILL...is based on love thy neighbor.That is not true, A007. See my post above.

I think you confuse decaying with ripening. Animals decay after they are killed...just as plants.I'm not confusing anything, A007. Perhaps you are. First, let us deal with the etymology of the word "decay," which is a biological term meaning to decompose; or rot. However, the word "decay" can apply to physical change, or, figuratively, to the breakdown of the mind, morals, or the like...usually implying a stage in deterioration short of destruction, whereas the word "rot" has both physical and figurative use. Therefore, animals decay and vegetable rot.

God gave us dominon over all OTHER creatures on Earth.[True.

I do agree that we should be more mindful of what we put in our temples. However, my take is that we as humans overdue everything. We eat TOO MUCH meat...especially red...we eat TOO MANY sweets...including fruits...and it is possible to eat TOO MUCH vegetation. The fact is that we need the protein from fish and other meats. We just eat too much. 6 oz. of meat a day is sufficient...we eat more like 2 pounds. The reason for our sicknesses is we do not know how to do ANYTHING in moderation. I agree with much of what you say here. One can eat too many artificial sweets, such as candy and sugar...but never too much fruit. There are people who eat nothing but fruit (fruitarians), so the premise of your argument is therefore flawed. And re: protein...the human body produces enough of its own protein, and man doesn't need to seek protein anywhere else.

Here is more for your edification and clarification, A007:

It is becoming increasingly more important for people to know what foods they should NOT eat, because too many are eating the wrong foods, and don’t even know it!

Then they wonder how they contract diseases like high blood pressure, gout, gallstones, kidney stones, arteriosclerosis (hardening of the blood arteries caused by excessive animal fat in the bloodstream – a major cause of heart attacks), strokes, serious skin problems (due to the consumption of too many acid foods), obesity, etc. Recent medical studies have shown that men who consume large amounts of beef have a tendency to contract colon cancer, and women who did the same contracted vaginal cancer and cancer of the colon as well. Man is on a path of self-destruction as long as he continues to disobey God’s laws of right eating. (See Leviticus 3:17; 7:26 and 11:7-8.)

Those who have given this subject consideration will not deny the fact that man is a vegetarian by nature. It is obvious that his teeth are designed to masticate vegetables, fruits, nuts and grains, whereas the teeth of carnivorous animals – which are tusk-like – are best adapted for flesh-tearing, and are also grown apart, so as to prevent the lodgment of particles of decayed flesh in the animal’s mouth...

Man’s intestinal tract is also more complicated, and nearly three times as long as the intestinal tract of animals that live on flesh. Besides the shortness of the intestinal tract of carnivorous animals when compared with that of man, it is also very smooth, while the intestines of man have numerous folds and pouches.

What we see here is that the intestines of beasts of prey are constructed so that their diet of flesh – which quickly decays – may be eliminated in the shortest possible time. The liver of, these animals is also of enormous size, and is very active, thus fully capable of neutralizing and eliminating 12 to 15 times as much acid as the human liver.

It is now common knowledge that a balanced diet is absolutely necessary to our health and well being. Therefore, in balancing our meals we should always be certain to give preference to the alkaline foods (fresh vegetables, fruits and most grains), while the acid-producing foods should be used sparingly (i.e., no more than two or three times a week).

Acid-producing foods are divided into two categories: organic acid (eggs, cheese, nuts and cereals) and inorganic acid (animal flesh, various animal by-products, all manufactured substances such as white sugar, white flour and all white-flour products). It is advisable to eliminate the inorganic substances altogether from your diet.

Alkaline foods consist of but one type, namely the organic variety. These foods are readily absorbed into the system, thus permitting the remineralization of the body. This being true, these products – i.e., fresh vegetables, fruits and most grains – should constitute 90% of the diet at all times, while the acid-producing foods should form the remaining 10%. Following this procedure, one may automatically maintain optimum health, and enjoy complete freedom even from what may be considered incurable diseases...

"I'm not confusing anything, A007. Perhaps you are. First, let us deal with the etymology of the word "decay," which is a biological term meaning to decompose; or rot. However, the word "decay" can apply to physical change, or, figuratively, to the breakdown of the mind, morals, or the like...usually implying a stage in deterioration short of destruction, whereas the word "rot" has both physical and figurative use. Therefore, animals decay and vegetable rot. "

I agree with this....However, it does not change the fact that the bannana and all of the other plants are not living before we consume them...only that they are in different degrees of rotting. So, haven't we broken the "Universal Law?" If we shouldn't kill, shouldn't that include ALL living things?

"I agree with much of what you say here. One can eat too many artificial sweets, such as candy and sugar...but never too much fruit. There are people who eat nothing but fruit (fruitarians), so the premise of your argument is therefore flawed. And re: protein...the human body produces enough of its own protein, and man doesn't need to seek protein anywhere else."

Just because people eat nothing but fruits does not make it right nor good for them. There are people that eat nothing but meat and/or meat products....does that make it ok?

You still never addressed my question .."3. Is it your contention that vegetarians do get cancer or many of the other diseases that flesh eaters get? "

All I am saying is that we can eat almost anything we want in moderation. Of course too much meat is bad for us...and too many refined foods, but to say that meat in and of itself is the cause of most of our ailments is debatable. I would submit that the depleated state of our soils have as much to do with our lack of nutrients i.e. bad health, as anything with the exception of municipal water.

The chlorinated water we drink is linked to every form of cancer and 60 percent of all other diseases.

I agree with this. However, it does not change the fact that the banana and all of the other plants are not living before we consume them...only that they are in different degrees of rotting. So, haven't we broken the "Universal Law?" If we shouldn't kill, shouldn't that include ALL living things?"You have proffered a contradiction here, A007. First you make the erroneous statement that bananas and all other plants are not living before we consume them...which I discounted in my previous post. Then you query, "If we shouldn't kill, shouldn't that include ALL living things?" Your question becomes moot because you can't kill the fruits and vegetables that God provided for us to eat.

Just because people eat nothing but fruits does not make it right nor good for them...What is the source of your information?

There are people that eat nothing but meat and/or meat products....does that make it ok?In some parts of the world, where vegetation is scarce, people subsist on animal flesh. Eskimos, for instance, survive by eating whale meat...

You still never addressed my question...3. Is it your contention that vegetarians do get cancer or many of the other diseases that flesh eaters get?I missed it. The answer is no.

All I am saying is that we can eat almost anything we want in moderation...We are supposed to eat what God intended for us to eat.

Of course too much meat is bad for us...and too many refined foods, but to say that meat in and of itself is the cause of most of our ailments is debatable...Check out the health publications Nature of England and the American Journal of Medicine and you will find that there is no more debate on the subject...

I would submit that the depleted state of our soils have as much to do with our lack of nutrients - i.e., bad health - as anything with the exception of municipal water. The chlorinated water we drink is linked to every form of cancer, and 60% of all other diseases.I agree. That's why I don't drink chlorinated water. I drink natural spring water...

Aqil--

All of the contadictions are coming from you.

First, there is a "universal law" that states we should not kill...BUT...its ok if we kill plants

Second, We should be vegetarians because that is what God intended....EXCEPT....for those that can't

Third, We are dying of cancer and other diseases because we eat meat....YET....eskimos live almost solely on meat...but they have very low rates of cancer, diabeties, and heart disease.

Jesus ate fish and fed them to them to the multitudes....I guess the ultimate question is where in the Bible or Qur'an does it say "Thou shalt not eat meat?"

Aqil--

All of the contadictions are coming from you.

First, there is a "universal law" that states we should not kill...BUT...its ok if we kill plants.You don't kill vegetables, A007...:(

Second, we should be vegetarians because that is what God intended...EXCEPT...for those that can't...And there are those who can't be vegetarians. I've already stated that...

Third, we are dying of cancer and other diseases because we eat meat...YET...Eskimos live almost solely on meat...but they have very low rates of cancer, diabeties, and heart disease.God, in His Infinite Wisdom, provided for those who live where vegetation is scarce...

Jesus ate fish and fed them to them to the multitudes...I guess the ultimate question is where in the Bible or Qur'an does it say "Thou shalt not eat meat?" Being an Essene, Jesus was a vegetarian. He gave them fish but it's debatable as to whether he ate the fish or not...and both Holy Books contain God's laws of right eating. Read my thread titled, "Jesus Was A Vegetarian."

"First, there is a 'universal law' that states we should not kill...BUT...it's ok if we kill plants..." There is currently no reason to believe that plants experience pain, devoid as they are of central nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains. It is theorized that the main reason animals have the ability to experience pain is as a form of self-protection. If you touch something that hurts and could possibly injure you, you will learn from the pain it produces to leave it alone in the future. Since plants cannot locomote and do not have the need to learn to avoid certain things, this sensation would be superfluous...

Plants are completely different physiologically from mammals. Unlike animals' body parts, many perennial plants, fruits, and vegetables can be harvested over and over again without resulting in the death of the plant or tree...

If one is concerned about the impact of vegetable agriculture on the environment, a vegetarian diet is still preferable to a meat-based one, since the vast majority of grains and legumes raised today are used as feed for cattle. By eating vegetables directly, rather than eating animals such as cows who must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh, one is saving many more plants' lives (and destroying less land)...

"Being an Essene, Jesus was a vegetarian. He gave them fish but it's debatable as to whether he ate the fish or not...and both Holy Books contain God's laws of right eating. Read my thread titled, "Jesus Was A Vegetarian."

I am not questioning weather or not Jesus was a vegetarian because the truth is that I do not know. However, since he gave them fish, it is probable that it was ok for them to partake. There is no instance in the Bible, Qur'an, or any other scripture that refers to Jesus that has him facilitating something that bad for us.


"And there are those who can't be vegetarians. I've already stated that... "

I understand that...my point was that they have lower instances of heart disease, cancer, and diabeties....so a steady diet of meat can not be the cause for our ailments here in the states.

I ask again----where in the Bible or Qur'an does it say "Thou shalt not eat meat?"

I ask again...where in the Bible or Qur'an does it say 'Thou shalt not eat meat?'First the Bible:

"And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel, saying: You shall not eat any fat, of ox or sheep or goat. And the fat of a beast that dies naturally, and the fat of what is torn by wild animals may be used in any other way; but you shall by no means eat it. For whoever eats the fat of the beast of which men offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, the person who eats it shall be cut off from his people. Moreover, you shall not eat any blood in any of your dwellings, whether of bird or beast. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.'" (Leviticus 7:22-27)

It is helpful to remember that the Bible was written by a variety of divinely inspired human authors, each part with a specific purpose, for a specific community, in a specific time period. The Christian Scriptures (i.e., the New Testament) are the product of three centuries of intellectual and spiritual discussion and dissent among early Christians. The books were transcribed, again and again, over three centuries, often losing its original meaning and taking on a new meaning. Also, the texts which were finally chosen for inclusion in the Canon (the 27 books we now call the "New Testament") were picked in the 4th century, and there are a variety of texts written at the time (and earlier) that didn't make it into the Canon (e.g., the Books of the Apocrypha).

As Rev. Ernest Bringas explains in Going By The Book, "We do not possess, nor have we ever possessed, any of the original writings of the Christian Scriptures. They were lost or destroyed early on. What we do possess are copies of these books, most of them incomplete and several times removed from the originals."

While it is true that we don't have an unequivocal, "Thou shalt not eat meat" commandment, Jesus' most famous saying, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy" certainly endorses the vegetarian diet and arguably requires it, considering what we know about slaughterhouses and factory farms. Can anyone imagine Jesus working in a slaughterhouse? Of course not.

The Garden of Eden, God's perfect world, was vegetarian (Gen. 1:29-30). Immediately, God calls this ideal and non-exploitative relationship "good" (Gen. 1:31). This is the one time when God makes such a statement. Then follows many years of fallen humanity, when people held slaves, waged war, ate animals, and committed various other violent acts. Although there are passages in the Scriptures that endorse eating animals, war, slavery, polygamy, animal sacrifice, and other practices that most people find immoral, these passages are a representation of what existed as a part of fallen humanity, not of God's ideal plan or vision. Despite the fall, the prophets tell us to expect a new age, a return to Eden, God's peaceable kingdom, when even the lion will lie down with the lamb and there will be no bloodshed or violence at all, "for the Earth will be filled with the knowledge of God" (Isaiah 11).

Most of us would agree that harming a dog or cat is unethical - un-Christian even. It is both rational and Biblically sound to suggest then, that harming any living being, including cows, chickens, pigs and fish, is equally immoral. There will be no factory farms and slaughterhouses in Heaven, and Christians, who all pray for God's will "on Earth as it is in Heaven," should be trying to live as closely as possible to that vision now. There is so much violence in the world today, and solutions are generally complex, and the issues debatable. On this one choice, though, the issue is plain: Do I support cruelty to animals, needless suffering, violence and death? Or don't I?

Make no mistake about it, on today's factory farms animals are dehorned, debeaked and castrated without anesthesia. To maximize profits, they are crowded together in the least space possible and are genetically bred so that most suffer lameness, crippling leg deformities, or bone breaks, because their legs can't keep up with their scientifically enhanced bodies. Finally, they are trucked - without food or water, through all weather extremes - to a frightening and hellish death.

Does God love animals, as Jesus says? Does God care about even the lowly sparrow? Does God's covenant extend to all the animals on land, and the birds in the air, and the fish in the sea, as Genesis tells us? If so, what does it mean that we treat animals so cruelly?...with so little thought to the fact that they too, are beloved by God...

Re: the Holy Qur'an:

"O ye who believe, eat of the good things We have provided for you, and render thanks to Allah, if it is He whom you really worship.

He has made unlawful to you only that which dies of itself, and the blood and flesh of swine, and that on which the name of any other than Allah has been invoked. But he who is driven by necessity, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, it shall be no sin for him. Surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful." (Sura al-Baqarah 2:173-174).

The injunction contained in the words, "eat of good, pure and wholesome things indicates that Muslims are not allowed to use things which may, in any way, injure their physical or moral or spiritual health, though they may ne allowed by the Shariah (Islamic law).

Islam prohibits the use of things that are divided into grades or categories, some of them being "unlawful," and others "forbidden." The above verse mentions only the "unlawful things." Among the things declared unlawful in this verse, the blood and flesh of a dead animal as food are evidently injurious, and have been recognized as such by most authorities on medicine.

The flesh of swine has been proven to be injurious, besides man's physical health, to his moral and spiritaul health. The swine eats filth and takes delight in living in dirty places. It has indecent habits and possesses the evil trait of sex perversion. Tapeworms, scrofula, cancer and encysted trichina are known to be more prevalent among pork-eating peoples. The use of pork causes trichinosis.

The Holy Qur’an says that there is some animal flesh that you can eat. The Qur'anic enjoinment of the eating of animal flesh takes into account the geographical area and the environmental conditions in which one lives, for it would be impossible for an Eskimo to be a vegetarian...

The same can be said of the desert tribes of northern Africa and the Bedouin tribes of Saudi Arabia, where there is little or no vegetation. Many millions of people inhabit lands where there is little or no vegetation, and they are, or course, exempt from the Universal Law. In His Infinite Wisdom Allah (swt) has provided us with a holy book prescribed for all mankind, and the Holy Qur’an was written in a country whose mean temperature is 85º Fahrenheit year 'round!...

All food, according to Islamic law, should be “halal,” i.e., allowed by the law, and “tayyib,” i.e., good, pure, wholesome and agreeable. Under the latter condition sometimes even lawful things become forbidden. For example, if a Muslim contracts colon cancer (caused by animal flesh putrefying in the colon), or if a Muslim sister contracts vaginal cancer from consuming excessive amounts of beef (check recent nutrition reports on the effect of beef consumption in the U.S.), then that beef – though lawful – becomes forbidden...

This is exactly what I am talking about. People trying to make scripture say what they would like them to say. These verses only refers to the fat and the blood...which is clearly different from the meat.

Also in the verses following the Lord refers to the burnt offerings of beasts and leaving the meat to Aaron. Although it doesn't say that Aaron and his sons ate the meat...what else would they do with it?

There is no way you can use scripture as law and back it up with science. Scirence is mans interpretation of everything and as well all know humans make mistakes and sometimes intentially deceive.

I agree that we have no direct knowledge of any of the scripture so the question is..."why are people trying to pass their "OPINIONS" as fact?"

It is highly unlikely that God would have a law that pertains to some but not all. Are there any other laws that have this property?

Finally...you didn't address Jesus' role in helping fisherman catch fish and why he would do that if it was unlawful or bad for them to do so.

On today's farms, animals are treated like machines, never granted the Sabbath rest required by God or any of the consideration that is their due as God's creatures. Within days of birth, for example, cows have their horns torn from their heads and chickens have their beaks seared off with a hot blade. Male cows and pigs are castrated without painkillers. All of these animals spend their brief lives in crowded and ammonia-filled conditions, many of them so cramped that they can't even turn around or spread a wing. Many do not get a breath of fresh air until they are prodded and crammed onto trucks for a nightmarish ride to the slaughterhouse, often through weather extremes and always without food or water. The animals are then hung upside down and their throats are sliced open, often while they're fully conscious.

The only legitimate Christian response to such mockery of God's beautiful creatures is to adopt a vegetarian diet...

This will be my last post on this subject as it is clear that entertaining new information is not an objective of yours.

I do appreciate the information you have given me on this subject and thank you for your time and discussion.

I do agree with you on one point and one point only...and that is that the cruelity to animals that takes place in slaughterhouses should move us to act as christians. However, it does not mean that we are natural vegetarians. There are a number of questions that you either can not answer or just refuse to answer. I won't repeat them because I have asked them more than once and you haven't even made an attempt to answer them.

I welcome any other debate or enlightenment that you care to share about religion or any other matter, but since I can't get straight answers to straight questions on this topic I will leave it alone.

Peace and luv
Dre'

First of all, A007, you haven't proffered any "new" information at all...and if you read all my threads and posts carefully, you will find that ALL your questions have been answered.

And if you have anymore - ABOUT ANYTHING - please feel free to post them...

All I ask is that you please read...instead of tryin' to be confrontational...

Aqil--

It is not my intent to be confrontational in the least. If I came across like that, I apologize.

If you read all of my posts...you will see that I don't have a firm stance on this subject (because I do not know) and i will be the first to admit when I am ignorant on a subject.

All of my responses were statements of my understanding and asking of questions on things that I did not understand. Forgive me if I missed your responses...but I have tried to find answers to my questions and have not...It could be that I just didn't have an understanding of your responses.

The questions I didn't see answers to were:

Why would Jesus help fisherman fish if it were unlawful or bad for them?

Is this Universal Law the only law that applies to some but not others?

After burnt offerings, when the fat was burned and the meat was left to Aaron and his family...what did they do with the meat?

If you do not want to answer these it is ok...I just wanted you to know which questions I failed to get an understanding of.

Again please forgive the appearance of being confrontational...I am only a brotha trying to stretch my mind.

Peace and luv
Dre'

Jesus' disciples ask where they will get enough bread to feed the multitudes, never even thinking of buying fish or other animal products, and never suggesting a fishing expedition, despite being the sea. Also, evidence indicates that the story of the loaves and the fishes did not originally include fish. For example, the earliest (pre-Gospel) accounts of this miracle do not include fish, and Jesus, when he refers to it, refers only to the bread (e.g., Matthew 16:9-10, Mark 8:19-20 and John 6:26).

Fish were added to the stories by Greek scribes, probably because the Greek word for fish, "ixous," is an acronym for the phrase, "Jesus Christ Son of God Savior." Indeed, the fish is still a symbol of Christianity today. In this very likely interpretation, the multiplication represents a prediction of the burgeoning church, Jesus making his disciples "fishers of men" as he promised, and has nothing to do with eating animals.

Also, some scholars contend that the Greek word for "fishweed" (a dried seaweed) has been mistranslated in this story as "fish." It is certainly true that dried fishweed would be more likely in a basket with bread, and fishweed remains a popular food among Jewish and Arab peasants...like the people to whom Jesus was speaking...

The Holy Qur’an says that there is some animal flesh that you can eat. The Qur'anic enjoinment of the eating of animal flesh takes into account the geographical area and the environmental conditions in which one lives, for it would be impossible for an Eskimo to be a vegetarian...

The same can be said of the desert tribes of northern Africa and the Bedouin tribes of Saudi Arabia, where there is little or no vegetation. Many millions of people inhabit lands where there is little or no vegetation, and they are, or course, exempt from the Universal Law.

In His Infinite Wisdom Allah (swt) has provided us with a holy book prescribed for all mankind, and the Holy Qur’an was written in a country whose mean temperature is 85º Fahrenheit year 'round!...

OK thanks

And the Bible says Aaron and his sons boiled the flesh at the door of the tabernacle meeting and ate it...

Hi this is an interesting thread...
I would like to know both sides views on slaughtering (as a sacrifice) on the day of Eid alAdha. Thank you.

Whereas no trace is to be found in the religious ceremonies of Christians and Jews of the supposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, Muslims - who are the spiritual descendants of Ishmael - commemorate with great fervor his intended sacrifice by slaughtering rams and goats every year on the 10th day of Dhu’l-Hijjah, the 12th month of the Islamic year. This universal sacrifice of rams and goats by Muslims establishes – beyond dispute or doubt – the fact that it was Ishmael whom Abraham offered for sacrifice, and not Isaac...

Originally posted by A007

First, there is a "universal law" that states we should not kill...BUT...its ok if we kill plants

Second, We should be vegetarians because that is what God intended....EXCEPT....for those that can't

Third, We are dying of cancer and other diseases because we eat meat....YET....eskimos live almost solely on meat...but they have very low rates of cancer, diabeties, and heart disease.

Jesus ate fish and fed them to them to the multitudes....I guess the ultimate question is where in the Bible or Qur'an does it say "Thou shalt not eat meat?"

PEACE:

I am a Muslim and a vegetarian. And I would like to address this post.

Meat (pork, chicken, and beef) is a major cause of cancer to us living in america. There was even a scare as it relates to fish from a certain area some years ago. But the parts of the world were eskimos live don't have to worry about that kind of pollution and contamination that will affect the fish. That maybe the freshest fish you can find, as a matter of fact, free from the poisons of industrial society that dump that madness into lakes and rivers. No wonder eskimos are so healthy!

If you are extending that "thou shalt not kill" rule to PLANTS, you are really stretching it, don't you think? How many trees and plants had to be killed to build houses, communities, and cities? How many plants (or ants) did you inadvertently kill when you went for a walk in the park? I am sure Allah (God) was not referring to plant life when He passed that Commandment on to us via Moses.

A reference to vegetarianism in the bible is Genesis 1:29. In the Holy Qu’ran, see Chapter 16, verse 69. Now, it does not use the words “thou shalt not eat meat” (which is your play on the wording of the 10 Commandments). You will find in both the bible and in the Holy Qu’ran reference to “meat eating”, but both also have references to “eating of the best that is provided”. Meat is not the best food to eat. The Bible refers to having life and living it more abundantly. With all the information out there about dis-eases caused (directly or indirectly) by the industrialization of the meat industry, it is clear that “No Meat is good for us”.

LM

"If you are extending that "thou shalt not kill" rule to PLANTS, you are really stretching it, don't you think? How many trees and plants had to be killed to build houses, communities, and cities? How many plants (or ants) did you inadvertently kill when you went for a walk in the park? I am sure Allah (God) was not referring to plant life when He passed that Commandment on to us via Moses."

What makes you so sure of that? I agree, however, that it is strecthing it to extend this 'universal law" to plants. I also, believe it is a stretch to extend it to animals that we are allowed to eat as offered in Leviticus. My point is that this "universal law" is just being used to propagate a belief in the vegatarian way of life. Notice there is NO other law that God gives that applies to SOME but not OTHERS.

" A reference to vegetarianism in the bible is Genesis 1:29. In the Holy Qu’ran, see Chapter 16, verse 69. Now, it does not use the words “thou shalt not eat meat” (which is your play on the wording of the 10 Commandments). You will find in both the bible and in the Holy Qu’ran reference to “meat eating”, but both also have references to “eating of the best that is provided”. Meat is not the best food to eat. The Bible refers to having life and living it more abundantly. With all the information out there about dis-eases caused (directly or indirectly) by the industrialization of the meat industry, it is clear that “No Meat is good for us”.

Meat is not good for us because of the industry standards (or lack thereof) and our glutony. We simply consume to much of it. This does not mean we should be FORBIDDEN from eating it. We overdue almost everything in our lives. Meat is not an exception.

As for our health....Milk and Chlorinated water (home tap water) cause more cancer than meat...or anything else for that matter.

What is the source of your information?

Chlorine...is bleach. They put it in our city water supplies to kill living organisms. Aren't we living organisims?
Because there is such a small amount in each 8 ounce glass of water it takes time to affect us....but it does. Would you take distilled water that you get a the store and had 1 milligram of chlorine to it every time you took a drink?

CHLORINATED WATER

The US Council of Environmental Quality stated “Cancer risk among people drinking chlorinated water is 93% higher than among those whose water does not contain chlorine.”
Chlorine is extremely acidic causing deadly acid conditions that the body has to deal with by stealing elements such as calicium etc. from the bones, etc. and also lowers the oxygen level within your body. Chlorine also kills the priceless friendly bacteria in the colon.
When showering or bathing a person is consuming (breathing) 100 times the chlorine compared to when they drink it. The chlorine gas is absorbed in the lungs and directly into the blood without being filtered or neutralizing at this point.
Considering what the US Council of Environmental Quality stated, does this mean that out of the 2 1/2 half million people getting cancer a year that 2,325,000 are getting cancer from the effects of acidic chlorinated water? Of the 560,000 who die a year from cancer, could chlorinated water been the main factor causing 521,000 deaths? Is this profitable population control?
SOLUTION:

Distilled Water:

Food grade hydrogen peroxide = H2O2, could be used in water purification instead of chlorine. It’s healthy for body and kills harmful bacteria “1034 faster” than chlorine. God made hydrogen peroxide and put it in our rain water at the rate of 3 to 5 parts per million. H2O2 has been used on the sick for years because it contains oxygen and hydrogen and simply works.

Fackelmann, K.A., Hints of a chlorine-cancer connection. Science News, July 11, 1992;142:23.

Flaten, Trond Peter. Chlorination of drinking water and cancer incidence in Norway. International Journal of Epidemiology, 1992;21(1):6-15.

Messina, Virginia. Chlorine and cancer. Good Medicine, Winter 1994;8-9.

Morris, Robert D. Chlorination, Chlorination by-products and cancer. American Journal of Public Health, July 1992;82(7):955-963.

Rothery, S.P., et al. Hazards of chlorine to asthmatic patients. British Journal of General Practice, Jan, 1991;39.

Shaw, Gary M., et al. Chlorinated water exposures and congenital cardiac anomalies. Epidemiology, November 1991;2(6):459-460.

http://www.notmilk.com/

Thanks, A007...

You didn't respond to OpnYr3rdi's post. Perhaps you missed it.

Originally posted by OpnYr3rdi
PEACE:

I am a Muslim and a vegetarian. And I would like to address this post.

Meat (pork, chicken and beef) is a major cause of cancer to us living in America. There was even a scare as it relates to fish from a certain area some years ago. But the parts of the world were eskimos live don't have to worry about that kind of pollution and contamination that will affect the fish. That maybe the freshest fish you can find, as a matter of fact, free from the poisons of industrial society that dump that madness into lakes and rivers. No wonder Eskimos are so healthy!

If you are extending that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" rule to PLANTS, you are really stretching it, don't you think? How many trees and plants had to be killed to build houses, communities, and cities? How many plants (or ants) did you inadvertently kill when you went for a walk in the park? I am sure Allah (God) was not referring to plant life when He passed that commandment on to us via Moses.

A reference to vegetarianism in the Bible is Genesis 1:29. In the Holy Qur'an, see sura 16: 69. Now it does not use the words “thou shalt not eat meat” (which is your play on the wording of the Ten Commandments). You will find in both the Bible and in the Holy Qu’ran reference to “meat-eating,” but both also have references to “eating of the best that is provided.”

Meat is not the best food to eat. The Bible refers to having life and living it more abundantly. With all the information out there about diseases caused (directly or indirectly) by the industrialization of the meat industry, it is clear that no meat is good for us.

LM

^5 OpnYr3rdi...and thank you for your enlightening discourse...

Meat (pork, chicken and beef) is a major cause of cancer to us living in America

This is simply not true! Milk and Chlorinated water are linked to almost every form of cancer.

If you are extending that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" rule to PLANTS, you are really stretching it, don't you think? How many trees and plants had to be killed to build houses, communities, and cities? How many plants (or ants) did you inadvertently kill when you went for a walk in the park? I am sure Allah (God) was not referring to plant life when He passed that commandment on to us via Moses.

I am not stretching it...you guys are narrowing it. If the commandment was 'thou shalt not kill' and it is absolute (as many try to pawn it off as being) then killing the ants, roaches, rats, or and/or plants would be forbidden also. How can you be so sure that Allah was not referring to plant life when he passed it on to Moses...does it say it in the Bible or Qu'ran?

Meat is not the best food to eat.

I agree 100 %. However, we are omnivores by nature and to abandon it is not the healthiest option for us either. Moderation is the key. We as Americans eat waaayyy too much meat!! But, if you take a look at those humans who live the longest (oversees and the longest living americans) you will find that the vast majority of them eat meat (although not a steady diet of it).

I agree with Aqil that we should have a 90%/10% ratio of alkaline foods to acid foods in our diet (different discussion). But this STILL allows for meat consumption on a small scale.

Meat (pork, chicken and beef) is a major cause of cancer to us living in America.This is simply not true! Milk and chlorinated water are linked to almost every form of cancer.OpnYr3rdi is correct. I read what you posted earlier re: milk and chlorinated water...however, there is no comparison...the numbers pale in significance...

I am not stretching it...you guys are narrowing it. If the commandment was 'thou shalt not kill' and it is absolute (as many try to pawn it off as being) then killing the ants, roaches, rats, or and/or plants would be forbidden also. How can you be so sure that Allah was not referring to plant life when he passed it on to Moses...does it say it in the Bible or Qur'an?As I have told you several times in our dialogue, one does not "kill" plants that provide us with food, A007...that is both a silly notion and a stupid argument. Ants have been here since time immemorial...rats are rodents that thrive on filth...roaches are insects that thrive on filth. Eliminate filth and you eliminate rats and roaches. And here is what the Bible says re: your innocuous query:

And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel, saying: 'You shall not eat any fat, of ox or sheep or goat. 'And the fat of a beast that dies naturally, and the fat of what is torn by wild animals, may be used in any other way; but you shall by no means eat it. 'For whoever eats the fat of the beast of which men offer an offering made by fire to the LORD, the person who eats it shall be cut off from his people. 'Moreover, you shall not eat any blood in any of your dwellings, whether of bird or beast. 'Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.'"
(Leviticus 7:22-27)

Meat is not the best food to eat.
I agree 100 %. However, we are omnivores by nature and to abandon it is not the healthiest option for us either. Moderation is the key. We as Americans eat waaayyy too much meat!!First of all, we are NOT "omnivores" by nature...we are vegetarians by nature. It is obvious that man's teeth are designed to masticate vegetables, fruits, nuts and grains, whereas the teeth of carnivorous animals – which are tusk-like – are best adapted for flesh-tearing, and are also grown apart, so as to prevent the lodgment of particles of decayed flesh in the animal’s mouth.

Man’s intestinal tract is also more complicated, and nearly three times as long as the intestinal tract of animals that live on flesh. Besides the shortness of the intestinal tract of carnivorous animals when compared with that of man, it is also very smooth, while the intestines of man have numerous folds and pouches.

What we see here is that the intestines of beasts of prey are constructed so that their diet of flesh – which quickly decays – may be eliminated in the shortest possible time. The liver of, these animals is also of enormous size, and is very active, thus fully capable of neutralizing and eliminating twelve to fifteen times as much acid as the human liver.

But, if you take a look at those humans who live the longest (overseas and the longest-living Americans) you will find that the vast majority of them eat meat (although not a steady diet of it).Once again you have proffered an erroneous statement, A007. For thousands of years the Hunza people of central Asia have relied on a low-fat, high-fiber, naturally-grown diet of largely fruits, vegetables, herbs, seeds, nuts and grains. It is no coincidence that the Hunza people were the world's healthiest and longest-lived people...and their amazing longevity is soley based on their diet...

I agree with Aqil that we should have a 90%-to-10% ratio of alkaline foods to acid foods in our diet (different discussion). But this STILL allows for meat consumption on a small scale. No it doesn't...

"As I have told you several times in our dialogue, one does not "kill" plants that provide us with food, A007...that is both a silly notion and a stupid argument."

That is ridiculous!!!!! If a plant is living and you end its life to eat it, you MOST CERTAINLY are KILLING it! What would you call it then..if one does not KILL plants? There is NO difference between ending the life of an animal and ending the life of a plant if this sweeping declaration/commandent "thou shalt not kill" is this RULE of the universe as you stated previously. And for you to simply dismiss it as a stupid arguement shows that you have no REAL rebutal. You just want to believe what you believe and have others believe the same simply because is SOUNDS intelligent.
Again I ask...If it were NOT ok to "kill" animals for food....then why doesn't it say "EAT NO MEAT" in Lev. instead of running down a list of meat that we shouldn't eat?

"Once again you have proffered an erroneous statement, A007. For thousands of years the Hunza people of central Asia have relied on a low-fat, high-fiber, naturally-grown diet of largely fruits, vegetables, herbs, seeds, nuts and grains. It is no coincidence that the Hunza people were the world's healthiest and longest-lived people...and their amazing longevity is soley based on their diet..."

Is it your contention that they (the hunza) eat NO meat?

We will have to agree to disagree on this my brother, but those who do their homework will find that I have proferred NO erroneous statements!!

It is obvious that you are protecting your position rather than researching what I say so let's just state what we believe and let readers to their own research.

Originally posted by A007:
Is it your contention that they (the Hunzas) eat NO meat?Yes. They are vegetarians. Here is proof:

The Hunzas: 15 Secrets of the World’s Healthiest and Oldest People

By Dr. Jay M. Hoffman

1. Biological Horticultural Gardens and Orchards

2. Healthy Natural Humus Top Soil

3. Peaceful Home Environment

4. Clean Air & Deep Breathing

5. Natural Exercise: Walking and Gardening

6. Plenty of Sleep

7. Plenty of Pure Water

8. Rock Resin Tea

9. Stressless Living

10. Mineral Rich Foods

11 a. No Refined, Simple Carbohydrates; No White Sugar, Flours and Rice.
Instead Use Whole, Complex and Unadulterated Carbohydrates

11 b. No Alcohol Drinks

11 c. No Caffeine Foods or Drinks
No Chocolate Foods or Drinks
No Coffee and Caffeine Tea
No Caffeine Soda Pops
No Caffeine Energy Supplements

12. Low-fat Diet; No Oils, Fat or Grease

13. Daily Bowel Movements: 1 to 4 BM’s per day

14. Vegetarian Diet; No Animal Flesh or Dairy Foods

15. No Spices and Condiments; No Salt, Pepper, Vinegar
and other Irritating Condiments and Spices

As I have told you several times in our dialogue, one does not "kill" plants that provide us with food, A007...that is both a silly notion and a stupid argument.That is ridiculous!!!!! If a plant is living and you end its life to eat it, you MOST CERTAINLY are KILLING it!Humans have to eat to live, A007...in case you didn't know. God provided plants and vegetables for us to eat.

What would you call it then...if one does not KILL plants?How about EATING plants...:)

There is NO difference between ending the life of an animal and ending the life of a plant if this sweeping declaration/commandment "thou shalt not kill" is this RULE of the universe as you stated previously..."Thou Shalt Not Kill" is both a Biblical injunction and a universal law...and like I said, we eat fruits and vegetables from the plants that God has provided for our sustenance.

And for you to simply dismiss it as a stupid argument shows that you have no REAL rebuttal.My REAL rebuttals substantiate my claim...

You just want to believe what you believe and have others believe the same simply because is SOUNDS intelligent.I am a seeker of truth, A007...I don't invent falsehoods.

Again I ask...If it were NOT okay to "kill" animals for food, then why doesn't it say "EAT NO MEAT" in Leviticus instead of running down a list of meat that we shouldn't eat?Once again I will quote the Bible:

And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel, saying: 'You shall not eat any fat, of ox or sheep or goat. 'And the fat of a beast that dies naturally, and the fat of what is torn by wild animals, may be used in any other way; but you shall by no means eat it. 'For whoever eats the fat of the beast of which men offer an offering made by fire to the LORD, the person who eats it shall be cut off from his people. 'Moreover, you shall not eat any blood in any of your dwellings, whether of bird or beast. 'Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.'" (Leviticus 7:22-27)

Both the Bible and the Qur'an says there is some animal flesh that you can eat. The Qur'anic enjoinment of the eating of animal flesh takes into account the geographical area and the environmental conditions in which one lives, for it would be impossible for an Eskimo to be a vegetarian. The same can be said of the desert tribes of northern Africa and the Bedouin tribes of Saudi Arabia, where there is little or no vegetation. Many millions of people inhabit lands where there is little or no vegetation, and they are, or course, exempt from the Universal Law. In His infinite wisdom God has provided us with a holy book prescribed for all mankind, and the Qur’an was written in a country whose mean temperature is 85º Fahrenheit year around...

In an enlightening book that was translated from the Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) by Dr. Edmond Bordeaux Szekely titled The Essene Gospel of Peace, Jesus – who was a member of the Essene sect that practiced vegetarianism – espouses on God’s laws of eating in the following profound statement:

“God commanded your forefathers: ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill!’ But their hearts were hardened and they killed. Then Moses decided that at least they should not kill men, and he suffered them to kill beasts. And then the hearts of your forefathers were hardened yet more, and they killed men and beasts likewise.

But I say unto you: Kill neither men nor beasts, nor the food that goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you; but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death always comes death. For everything that kills your foods kills your bodies also. And everything that kills your bodies kills your soul also. And your bodies become what your foods are; even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are. Therefore eat not anything which fire, frost or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze, and rot your body also.”

Jesus also admonishes us to:

“Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scriptures is dead. For I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws in writing, but through the living word. The law is the living word of the living God to living prophets for living men.

In everything that is life the law is written. You find it in the grass, in the trees, in the rivers, in the mountains, in the birds of heaven, in the fish of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture – which is without life. God so-made life and all living things that they might – by the ever-living word – teach the laws of the one true God to man. God wrote the laws not in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit.”

"Both the Bible and the Qur'an says there is some animal flesh that you can eat."

Thank you very much....CASE CLOSED!!!! This justification of WHY some can eat meat is nonsense. How can a law be "universal" if it does not apply to everyone.
You are NOT a seeker of truth if you continue to hang on to this belief. Because it is clear that it does not stand on its merit and has 'mans' intervention all over it.

"Humans have to eat to live, A007...in case you didn't know. God provided plants and vegetables for us to eat." "How about EATING plants..."

And so did God provide animals for us to eat. How about EATING animals? Face it ...you can not distinguish between "killing" animals for food and "killing" plants for food because there IS NO difference when it comes to ending their lives for our consumption.

My point is that it is a religious PREFERENCE of Muslims (and other religions) not a COMMANDMENT as you try to make it seem. AAnd those who choose to eat meat are breaking a "law" of God even if it is not the MOST healthy diet.

Of the five cultures in this planet where people live routinely past 120 years, the Hunzas are the most studied. In fact, if you have been in the alternative medicine field for any length of time, you must of heard of the long living Hunzas.

In reality, we have the same genetic make-up. If they can do it, so can we. Let us look at some of their common practices. It is not too far fetched to think that longevity, could be improved by learning and practicing their way of life.

Here are some of the things common to the Hunza tribe:

1.Basic diet is fruits (dried and reconstituted), vegetable and grains (whole and sprouted) and meat. Whole grains are used exclusively. There are no processed flours. They eat a meager fare of 1,800 to 2,000 calories per day.

The rest of this study of the Hunzas can be found at this particular web page AND about 12 others......ALL of which say they eat MEAT (primarily seafood)

sorry forgot the link

www.oasistv.com/news/7-11-00-story-2.asp

According to the book titled, Hunza : Secrets of the World's Healthiest and Oldest Living People, by Dr. Jay Milton Hoffman Ph.D and John Westerdahl, the Hunzas are vegetarians. See my earlier post and here is the link:

http://gdenovo.tripod.com/macrovision/Hunza.html

(Saying "they all say they eat meat" is a bit fatuous on your part, to say the least...)

Both the Bible and the Qur'an says there is some animal flesh that you can eat. Thank you very much....CASE CLOSED!!!! This justification of WHY some can eat meat is nonsense. How can a law be "universal" if it does not apply to everyone. You are NOT a seeker of truth if you continue to hang on to this belief. Because it is clear that it does not stand on its merit and has 'mans' intervention all over it.You should have posted the paragraph in its entirety. It reads as follows:

Both the Bible and the Qur'an says there is some animal flesh that you can eat. The Qur'anic enjoinment of the eating of animal flesh takes into account the geographical area and the environmental conditions in which one lives, for it would be impossible for an Eskimo to be a vegetarian. The same can be said of the desert tribes of northern Africa and the Bedouin tribes of Saudi Arabia, where there is little or no vegetation. Many millions of people inhabit lands where there is little or no vegetation, and they are, or course, exempt from the Universal Law...

My point is still the same if you post the entire paragraph or not.....It is nonsence to call a law "universal" and yet have some who are 'exempt' from it. Come bruh ...you are intelligent...there is NO WAY this can make sense.

When I said they all say they eat meat...I was referring to the other sites about Hunza that I read....Forgive me if my statement was misleading.

Your link only goes to a book seller. The author of this book is merely telling of HIS experiences with the Hunza people and HIS personal veiws on nutrition. There is PLENTY of information that says that Hunzas eat seafood AND are NOT the longest living people on the planet. You yourself said the people of Japan (Okinowa I believe) were the longest living....Didn't you?....AND they too eat meat (albeit no very much).

Never said anything like that...and don't give us a book review without reading the book...:) If you have plenty of information that refutes Dr. Hoffman's book on the Hunzas, then post it...and btw, the paragraph in question may not make sense to you, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me...:)

If it (a universal law that does not apply to everyone in the universe) makes sense....then explain it so I can understand it please.

Aqil said "Never said anything like that."

I beg to differ my friend...remember this statement you made on the health fourm?

The people of Okinawa are the longest-living people on the planet...not the Aboriginies...

And for the record...the people of Okinawa and the Aboriginies of of Austrailia eat small quantities of meat!!!

Aqil said "Never said anything like that."

I beg to differ my friend...remember this statement you made on the health forum?

"The people of Okinawa are the longest-living people on the planet...not the Aboriginies..."Can you direct me to the post or thread where I made this statement?

it was in your post entitled "God promises 120 years of human life in the Bible".

My bad, A007...I didn't remember making that statement...thank you for reminding me that I did. The thread you are refering to is in this forum. I was responding to your following statement:

"Currently the Aboriginies of Australia live the closest to this lifespan...and they eat meat."

To which I replied:

"The people of Okinawa are the longest-living people on the planet...not the Aboriginies..."

Here is the article I posted at that time:

Secrets of Longevity From the World’s Longest-Living People Revealed

Western researchers unravel the mysteries of the people of Okinawa

By Ron Kennedy, M.D.

Among the most interesting of recent findings from Western longevity researchers are those based on studies in Okinawa, a small island about 430 miles northeast of Taiwan and home of some of the world’s oldest and healthiest people. These findings are documented in "The Okinawa Program," a massive scientific report that details why life expectancy on that small island is so long.

More centenarians live in Okinawa than any other place in the world: approximately 350% more than in the United States. The average life expectancy for Okinawan women is 86 years; for men, it is 78 years, a world record. It’s no accident: Researchers have found young-looking, clean arteries as well as healthy cholesterol, homocysteine, and blood pressure levels in these centenarians.

How do they do it? Perhaps the most important factor is diet. Green, leafy vegetables and high-protein foods such as fish are two staples of the Okinawan diet. These essential food groups contain an impressive array of prolongevity nutrients. Here's the link:

http://okinawaprogram.com/okinawa_program.html


In my earlier post Drs. Jay Milton Hoffman and John Westerdahl stated the Hunzas of Central Asia are the world's healthiest and oldest-living people...

In the above article Dr. Ron Kennedy states that the island of Okinawa is the home of some of the world’s oldest and healthiest people...

There is no contradiction here...just a play on words. It looks as if both are right...I was unaware of the Hunza people when I made that statement...

No problem. It is just my point that the some of the oldest living people on the planet eat meat. So...I will try to follow there lead and if others' goals are to live long...then it would seem they would do the same.

My point is that the oldest and healthiest people in the world are either vegetarians and/or eat seafood. The Hunzas of Central Asia are vegetarians...and being a large island in the southern Pacific, the natives of Okinawa do eat fish. Saying that these people eat "meat" is a misnomer, thusly misleading. The word "meat" describes the flesh of mammals, as distinguished from fish and other seafood...

The word “meat” in the Bible is actually English in origin and means food in general. Throughout the Bible the words “animal flesh” are used when describing meat as we know it. Next time you read the words “meat offering” in the Bible, remember the correct translation is “food offering” (see Ezekiel 47:12 for further proof)...

Understood.

As explained by you earlier....you didn't even believe that fish should be in our diets because you think the vegetarian diet is natural for us ( which is not completely true by the way).

You have taken one doctor's experience (Dr. Hoffman) and excepted it as truth. If you do further research you will find that ALMOST all people who have studied the Hunzas and Aboriginies have found that they both, in fact, eat seafood AND some foul.

I believe that we both (Aqil and I) have the best interest of our people at heart. Apparently our research has led us to believe differently. I am not exactly sure how, since much of the information we have read is the same. I would simply challenge the readers to read for themselves and see which nutritional plan would better serve them. I certainly do not denounce the vegetarian lifestyle, but many vegetarians unecessarily denounce the consumption of meat and/or fish (in small quantities) and condemn those who do so with the message of poor health. If people like to eat meat and fish, and do so in moderation and coupled with a steady diet of fruits and vegetables, there is PLENTY of evidence that shows that they can expect to live long and healthy lives.

Understood.

As explained by you earlier...you didn't even believe that fish should be in our diets because you think the vegetarian diet is natural for us (which is not completely true by the way).Like I've said so many times, man is a vegetarian by nature...

You have taken one doctor's experience (Dr. Hoffman) and excepted it as truth.I presented much evidence and research re: right eating long before I was aware of Drs. Hoffman and Westerdahl's book on the diet of the Hunza people of central Asia...

If you do further research you will find that ALMOST all people who have studied the Hunzas and Aboriginies have found that they both, in fact, eat seafood AND some foul.If you do further research you will find that you are wrong. The territory of the Hunza people is mountainous and land-locked. If they eat seafood they must import it. And where is the information re: the Aboriginies? (Btw, the correct spelling is "fowl").

I believe that we both (Aqil and I) have the best interests of our people at heart. Apparently, our research has led us to believe differently. I am not exactly sure how, since much of the information we have read is the same.What "same" information have we read?

I would simply challenge the readers to read for themselves and see which nutritional plan would better serve them. I certainly do not denounce the vegetarian lifestyle...Vegetarianism is not a "lifestyle"...just as eating meat is not a "lifestyle"...

...but many vegetarians unnecessarily denounce the consumption of meat and/or fish (in small quantities) and condemn those who do so with the message of poor health.I don't know of many vegetarians who "unnecessarily denounce the consumption of meat and condemn those who do so...What is the source of your information?

If people like to eat meat and fish, and do so in moderation and coupled with a steady diet of fruits and vegetables, there is PLENTY of evidence that shows that they can expect to live long and healthy lives.Not any kind of meat, A007...God forbids the eating of swine flesh in the Bible...and I posted a thread in the Health Forum (and I believe here too) re: the diseases the filthy pig carries...

The flesh of swine has been proven to be injurious, not only to man’s physical health, but to his moral and spiritual health as well. The swine eats filth and takes delight in living in dirty places. It has indecent habits and possesses the evil trait of sex-perversion. Tapeworms, scrofula, cancer and encysted trichina (i.e., trichinosis) are known to be prevalent among pork-eating people. The following is a list of “foods” categorized as swine flesh and therefore forbidden by God in the Holy Bible:

bacon, baloney, barbecue ribs and/or shoulder, chitterlings (hog intestines), fatback, ham, ham hocks (hog knees), hoghead cheese, hog maws, mountain oysters (hog testicles), neckbones, pepperoni, pig ears, feet and tails, Polish sausage, pork loin, pork chops, pork skins, roast pork, salt pork, sausage and soucemeat (i.e., sow’s meat)...

And yet there are people in who live long lives while consuming pork.....why are they( some of those who pork and live long) able to live into their 90's and possibly older?

And yet there are people in who live long lives while consuming pork...why are they (some of those who eat pork and live long) able to live into their 90's and possibly older?I cannot respond to your unsubstantiated personal opinion, being that the information is undocumented. However, what IS documented is the fact that the longest-living and healthiest people in the world (the Hunzas and the Okinawans) do not eat pork. Check out the following article:

Eating Pork Can Be Hazardous To Your Health

By Paul Wong

When I was studying in England I used to live in a “dig” (rooming house) in Highgate, North London. There were Chinese students from Malaysia, Singapore, Sarawak, Hong Kong and Vietnam rooming in the two houses that faced each other. We were all good friends and we spent the weekends cooking and sharing our favorite dishes.

One of our friends, called Luk, studied medicine at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and he would spend his summer vacation in London with us. Luk's special contribution was “Charsiu,” the Cantonese barbecued pork. The way he prepared it was just exquisite, much better than those of any Chinese restaurant I have ever tasted. He had been coming to Highgate every summer for three years, and we always looked forward to tasting his “Charsiu.”

The summer before his final year in the university Luk also came to stay with our group, but there was a radical change in him. He told us there would be no more “Charsiu” from that time onwards. The real shocker is that he vowed not to eat any more pork dishes, and strongly advised all of us in the group not to do so either. He had such a strong conviction against pork that he would not eat with us if we insisted on having it. Here is his explanation:

Luk was with a team of medical students doing a research project on the effects of diet on stomach and intestinal diseases such as trichinosis. The research team’s method was to go to the hospitals and dissect corpses for autopsies. They based their studies on the diets of the various ethnic communities in the region. Their research uncovered the finding of the ethnic community with the highest percentage of cases with the trichinella spiralis worm belonged to a race that had pork as its main staple diet. Their research data showed a remarkably low percentage of Jews and Muslims with the trichinella spiralis worm in their bodies. It is significant that these two ethnic communities exclude pork and other Biblically unclean meats in their diet.

My friend had seen such clear evidence in the co-relationship between pork consumption and stomach and intestinal diseases that he could make a determination not to eat that meat again in all his life. That was the first time I had ever heard a negative report on pork, but it has a lasting impression on my mind ever since that summer in London, England.

Trichinosis – from Encarta Encyclopedia

Trichinosis is a parasitic disease caused by the roundworm trichinella spiralis. It follows the eating of raw or inadequately cooked meat, especially pork. The larvae are released, reach maturity, and mate in the intestines...the females produce live larvae. The parasites are then carried from the gastrointestinal tract by the bloodstream to various muscles, where they become encysted. It is estimated that 10% to 20% of the adult population of the United States suffers from trichinosis at some time.

In many people the disease exhibits no symptoms and is discovered only at autopsy. In others it causes diarrhea and other gastrointestinal symptoms as the worms multiply in the digestive tract. When the larvae circulate through the bloodstream, the patient experiences edema, irregular fever, profuse sweating, muscle soreness and pain, and prostration. There may be involvement of the central nervous system, heart, and lungs; death occurs in about 5% of clinical cases. Once the larvae have imbedded themselves in the muscle tissue, the cysts usually become calcified; however, the infestation usually causes no further symptoms except fatigue and vague muscular pains. There is no specific treatment.

Bad Effects of Pork Consumption

Pig's bodies contain many toxins, worms and latent diseases. Although some of these infestations are harbored in other animals, modern veterinarians say that pigs are far more predisposed to these illnesses than other animals. This could be because pigs like to scavenge and will eat any kind of food, including dead insects, worms, rotting carcasses, excreta (including their own), garbage, and other pigs. Influenza (flu) is one of the most famous illnesses which pigs share with humans. This illness is harbored in the lungs of pigs during the summer months and tends to affect pigs and humans in the cooler months. Sausage contains bits of pigs' lungs, so those who eat pork sausage tend to suffer more during epidemics of influenza.

Pig meat contains excessive quantities of histamine and imidazole compounds, which can lead to itching and inflammation; growth hormone, which promotes inflammation and growth; sulfur-containing mesenchymal mucus, which leads to swelling and deposits of mucus in tendons and cartilage, resulting in arthritis, rheumatism, etc. Sulfur helps cause firm human tendons and ligaments to be replaced by the pig's soft mesenchymal tissues, and degeneration of human cartilage.

Eating pork can also lead to gallstones and obesity, probably due to its high cholesterol and saturated fat content. The pig is the main carrier of the taenia solium worm, which is found it its flesh. These tapeworms are found in human intestines with greater frequency in nations where pigs are eaten. This type of tapeworm can pass through the intestines and affect many other organs, and is incurable once it reaches beyond a certain stage.

One in six people in the U.S. and Canada has trichinosis from eating trichina worms, which are found in pork. Many people have no symptoms to warn them of this, and when they do, they resemble symptoms of many other illnesses. These worms are not noticed during meat inspections, nor does salting or smoking kill them. Few people cook the meat long enough to kill the trichinae. The rat (another scavenger) also harbors this disease. There are dozens of other worms, germs, diseases and bacteria which are commonly found in pigs, many of which are specific to the pig, or found in greater frequency in pigs.

Pigs are biologically similar to humans, and their meat is said to taste similar to human flesh. Pigs have been used for dissection in biology labs due to the similarity between their organs and human organs. People with insulin-dependent diabetes usually inject themselves with pig insulin. If you pour Coke (yes, the soda) on a slab of pork, and wait a little while, you will see worms crawl out of it.

Medical and Scientific Reasons for not Eating Pork

This is a direct quote from What the Bible Says About Healthy Eating by Dr. Rex Russell. He attended Baylor School of Medicine in Houston, TX, and did his residency at the Mayo Clinic at Rochester, Minnesota:

"One reason for God's rule forbidding pork is that the digestive system of a pig is completely different from that of a cow. It is similar to ours, in that the stomach is very acidic. Pigs are gluttonous, never knowing when to stop eating. Their stomach acids become diluted because of the volume of food, allowing all kinds of vermin to pass through this protective barrier. Parasites, bacteria, viruses, and toxins can pass into the pigs flesh because of overeating. These toxins and infectious agents can be passed on to humans when they eat a pig’s flesh."

In the Biblical Archeological Review, Jane Cahill examined the toilets of a Jewish household in Jerusalem, finding no parasites or infectious agents, but only pollen from the many fruits, vegetables, and herbs they had eaten. A similar study done about Egyptians revealed eggs from schistosoma, trichinella, wire worm and tapeworms, all found in pork. All of these organisms cause significant chronic diseases.

In what is probably a strong illustration of the perils of pork, at one time no cases of trichinosis had been reported in the country of Bolivia for several years. However, 25% of the pigs tested were infested with trichinosis. People working on these farms and the population eating the pigs were also found to be positive for infestation with this parasite. The primary symptoms of this infection include muscle pain, headaches, fever and swelling in the extremities. These are all nonspecific symptoms that do not necessarily indicate any one disease. Although this may explain why the trichinosis had not been diagnosed in Bolivia for several years, it is strong circumstantial evidence that many people became ill because of pork.

Dr. W.J. Zimmerman reviewed the diaphragm muscle from multiple autopsies done in the U.S. in the late '60s, and reported that trichinosis was not an unusual finding. It is well accepted that illnesses caused by parasites have a significant economic effect worldwide. In the U.S., three of the six most common food-borne parasitic diseases of humans are associated with pork consumption. These include toxoplasmosis, taeniases or cysticercosis (caused by the pork tapeworm, taenia solium) and trichinellosis. In Japan, the source of these infections was traced to the flesh of pigs, bears, horses, racoons and foxes. All of these animals are listed in the Bible as putrid or unclean.

Swine are also good incubators of toxic parasites and viruses- although the animal doesn't appear to be ill while carrying these diseases. A scientist at the University of Giessen's Institute for Virology in Germany showed in a study of worldwide influenza epidemics that pigs are the one animal that can serve as a mixing vessel for new influenza viruses that may seriously threaten world health. If a pig is exposed to a human's DNA virus and then a bird's virus, the pig mixes the two viruses - developing a new DNA virus that is often extremely lethal for humans. These viruses have already caused worldwide epidemics and destruction. Virologists have concluded that if we do not find a way to separate humans from pigs, the whole earth's population may be at risk.

The 1942 Yearbook of Agriculture reported that 50 diseases were found in pigs, and many of these were passed on to humans by eating the pig's flesh. Additionally, just the handling of swine has an element of risk. A large hog-raising facility in the area where I live wisely requires its employees to wear gloves, masks and protective clothing while working in the pig barns. The workers are required to shower each day before going home.

Little wonder that God would inspire His prophet to include eating pork among the disobedient acts of stubborn people in addition to idolatry and conjuring spirits of the dead, "a people who continually provoke Me to My face,...who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat." (Isaiah 65:3,4)

(Paul Wong is a Christian minister and the president of "ARK International." His ministry also serves as an architectural service company in Houston, TX. The "ARK Forum" on the Internet is international and non-denominational.)

If you're still not convinced here is more:

Just Say 'No' to Swine Flesh

By Jim Bramlett

Dear friends:

(This will make you think!)

On March 15, 2000 I posted a news item saying that "cloned pigs could provide organs for transplants into humans on the NHS within six years, it emerged yesterday..." I commented: "If pigs were an abomination in the ancient Jewish temple, how much more will they be an abomination being made a part of God's New Covenant temple - our bodies! Six years away? For this and many other reasons, I suspect God will pull down the curtain before then and say, 'No more.' "

Combining swine flesh with human flesh will not just be a spiritual abomination, there are also extreme concerns physically, no doubt why God did not (DOES NOT) allow the eating of swine. I used to think that God had this restriction about pigs, only to protect those poor, primitive Israelites from the deadly trichinella worms found in swine. But we modern, sophisticated humans are so smart that we do not have this problem. Yeah, right!

Not true, according to Dr. Gordon S. Tessler, in his excellent book, The Genesis Diet. He says:

"Obviously, the indiscriminate eating patterns of omnivores like pigs, make them disease carriers. Pigs are known to carry up to 200 diseases and 18 different parasites and worms, including the deadly worm called trichinella spiralis. This worm is commonly called trichinosis and there is no known cure for these spiral worms. The trichinae worms are so small and transparent that only trained inspectors using high-powered microscopes can detect their existence. Trichinosis can cripple or even kill anyone that eats as little as a forkful of contaminated food! Trichinosis can mimic other diseases such as arthritis, rheumatism, or typhoid fever.

Pigs have more incidences of arthritis than any other known animals in the world. Arthritis may be a virus or a parasite that is transmitted from pigs to humans as a direct result of eating the flesh and blood of hogs and pigs. Perhaps many other diseases are misdiagnosed and their real cause is roundworms, gullet worms, hookworms, thorn-headed worms, trichina worms, stomach worms, nodular worms, tapeworms, as well as many other parasites found in the flesh of the unclean swine. A person may be committing slow suicide when they eat bacon, ham, sausage, or pork chops.

Even hog farmers who insist that corn-fed hogs are safe won't give you a guarantee that their indoor hogs haven't eaten any rats, mice, fecal waste, or maggots within the past few days. The metal doorknobs in pig nurseries, become corroded after a year or so, due to the gases produced by the pigs urine and feces. The same gas and pig dander that eat away metal doorknobs are harming the respiratory tracts of hog farmers. Their unusually high incidences of respiratory ailments, from coughing and sniffles to lung scarring and pneumonia can no longer be attributed to weather and allergies alone. The hog waste spills from hog farms are contaminating our land, our rivers, and our water supply. Pork should be considered a homotoxin (human poison), and the probable cause of many common sicknesses and degenerative diseases.

The Great Physician, the Creator of all life, admonishes us to separate the clean animals from the unclean for physical health and well being. Many faithful church people who would never defile God's temple with cigarettes - even though smoking is not mentioned in the Bible - continue to ingest bacon, ham and pork chops, which are disease-carrying, parasite-infested unclean foods that God commands His children not to eat! It would be futile and absurd to ask God to bless the smoking of cigarettes, yet we pray that He bless a pork chop on our dinner plate! Can we expect our Creator to disregard His word to us so we can indulge our appetites?"

Dr. Tessler's book, "The Genesis Diet" and his video, "Eating God's Way" are highly recommended...

It is easy to find Doctors, quacks, fanatics, and/or misguided souls to support (or in this case denounce) almost anything.

"I cannot respond to your unsubstantiated personal opinion, being that the information is undocumented."

You can not respond to it because YOUR claim is undocumented. You offer the OPINIONS of doctors and writers as documentation that pork/meat are not good for humans. Yet, even if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears, there ARE 90 year olds and older who eat pork and meat all of their lives. I have seen no such negative "documentation" about all of the other scavengers that God forbade in Lev. I will ask the same of you. Show me the "documentation" that all people who eat pork (seafood, and all of the other scavengers) die early, diseased filled lives!

There ARE 90-year-olds and older who eat pork and meat all of their lives...Are we supposed to believe this just because YOU say it? What is the source of your information?

Show me the "documentation" that all people who eat pork (seafood, and all of the other scavengers) die early, diseased-filled lives!Can you show me documentation that all people who eat swine and all other scavengers live long, healthy lives?

"Are we supposed to believe this just because YOU say it? What is the source of your information?"

No...All you have have to do is ask the 90 year old people that you know......and let the readers ask the ones that they know....and see what portion have eaten or still eat pork for much of their lives. It is obvious that your "sources of information" are those articles/publishings that only serve to help your point. Why don't you post those "sources" that differ from what you believe? The answer...because we all CHOOSE what information to accept as truth. If you (or anyone else) would do some UNBIASED research on the matter, with an open mind and open heart, you will find older people who consume pork (and some of the other scavengers that God forbade).

Why have you chosen to separate pork from the rest of the animals in Lev. that were unclean and not fit for food?

"Can you show me documentation that all people who eat swine and all other scavengers live long, healthy lives?"

Again you deflect. This is becoming a common theme when you can not or will not answer a question. Answer a question or request with a question or request of your own. A very old trick. However, I can not be baited and switched. So, if you choose not to answer the challenge, then say so...but don't try to pull me into a "mine is bigger than yours" arguement.

Are we supposed to believe this just because YOU say it? What is the source of your information?No...All you have have to do is ask the 90-year-old people that you know...and let the readers ask the ones that they know...and see what portion have eaten or still eat pork for much of their lives.I don't know any...if you do, please feel free to inform us...

It is obvious that your "sources of information" are those articles/publishings that only serve to help your point. Why don't you post those "sources" that differ from what you believe? I can't find any...do you have any?

The answer...because we all CHOOSE what information to accept as truth.Your answer is chimerical at best...Truth exists, A007, only falsehood has to be invented...

If you (or anyone else) would do some UNBIASED research on the matter, with an open mind and open heart, you will find older people who consume pork (and some of the other scavengers that God forbade).And if you would do some UNBIASED research on the matter, you will find that there are very few older people who consume pork and some of the other scavengers that God forbade. Why do you think most doctors tell their older patients to eliminate salt and fatty foods - including pork - from their diets?

Why have you chosen to separate pork from the rest of the animals in Leviticus that were unclean and not fit for food?Because too many of our people do not know that pork is forbidden by God in the Holy Bible. They eat much more pork than the other animals in Leviticus.

Can you show me documentation that all people who eat swine and all other scavengers live long, healthy lives?Again you deflect. This is becoming a common theme when you cannot or will not answer a question. Answer a question or request with a question or request of your own. A very old trick. However, I cannot be baited and switched. So, if you choose not to answer the challenge, then say so...but don't try to pull me into a "mine is bigger than yours" argument.Okay, A007...and on that note...

:wave:

Islam





Thanx Aqil, this was a really interesting read.......

Islam


You're quite welcome, Brother Pharaoh...Al Hamdu-'l-lah.

"O believers, eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah (God), if it is Him you serve. He has forbidden you carrion, blood, the FLESH OF THE PIG, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah (God). But if anyone is forced by necessity without wilful transgression then he/she is without sin. For God is oft forgiving, Most Merciful. " Koran 2: 172-174

Ah Haaaa!!!!
Now I see why Muslims only care about eating swine. Is the scipture in the Qu'ran that forbids any other food? Well....what about the other scavengers that were forbidden in Lev.?? Does the reason for them being forbade have no meaning? Shellfish and all other scavengers were forbade because they were unclean. Why is it now that only Pork is unclean in Muslim eyes.

And BTW check the diet of both Bob Hope and George Burns who both lived long lives and see if they were vegetarians.
Islam


You're quite welcome, Brother Pharaoh...Al Hamdu-'l-lah.

"O believers, eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah (God), if it is Him you serve. He has forbidden you carrion, blood, the FLESH OF THE PIG, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah (God). But if anyone is forced by necessity without willful transgression then he/she is without sin. For God is oft forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 2: 172-174)

Ah Haaaa!!!!

Now I see why Muslims only care about eating swine. Is their scipture in the Qur'an that forbids any other food? Well...what about the other scavengers that were forbidden in Leviticus? Does the reason for them being forbidden have no meaning? Shellfish and all other scavengers were forbidden because they were unclean. Why is it now that only pork is unclean in Muslim eyes?Unfortunately, you have arrived at some erroneous and rather dubious conclusions re: this ayat in the Qur'an. Let me explain:

The Qur'an says: "O ye who believe, eat of the good things We have provided for you, and render thanks to Allah, if it is He Whom you really worship." (Sura Al-Baqarah, ayat 173)

The injunction contained in the words, "eat of good, pure and wholesome things" indicates that Muslims are not allowed to use things which may, in any way, injure their physical, moral or spiritual health...though they may be allowed by the Shariah.

"He has made unlawful to you only that which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine, and that on which the name of any other than Allah has been invoked." (Sura Al-Baqarah, ayat 174)

The very name of this foul animal (i.e., "khinzir") contains an allusion to the prohibition of its flesh. The word is a combination of khinz and ara; the first part meaning, "very foul" and the second, "I see," meaning, "I see it very foul." In the Hindu language this animal is known by the name "su'ar" (rhymes with "sewer"), which translates exactly the same as the Arabic "khinzir," i.e., "I see it very foul."

"But he who is driven by becessity, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, it shall be no sin for him. Surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful." (Sura Al-Baqarah, ayat 174)

The word "sin" translates "ithm" in Arabic, meaning anything unlawful, i.e., a sin; anything that renders a person deserving of punishment; anything that pricks the mind as something evil. The four things mentioned in this verse are not only things that are divided into categories...some of them being "unlawful" and others "forbidden." This verse only mentions the "unlawful things." The forbidden things have been stated by Prophet Muhammad (saw) and are mentioned in the Hadith.

The use of haram or an unlawful thing has direct bearing on the moral development of man, but it is not so with a forbidden thing, which stands on a lower level of importance, though both are prohibited.

Among the things declared unlawful in this verse, the blood and flesh of a dead animal as food, are evidently injurious - and has been recognized as such by most authorities on medicine. The flesh of swine has been proven to be injurious, besides man's physical health, to his moral and spiritual health as well. The swine eats filth and takes delight in living in dirty places. It has indecent habits and possesses the evil trait of sex perversion. Tape worms, scrofula, cancer and encysted trichina are know to be more prevalent among pork-eating peoples, and the use of pork also causes trichinosis...

Hoping your queries have been answered re: the Holy Qur'an, and that you have been enlghtened...

Hoping your queries have been answered re: the Holy Qur'an, and that you have been enlghtened...

Actually you answer neither of my questions. What about the other animals that were forbidden by Leviticus? And why is swine the only unclean animals mentioned in the Qu'ran?

Actually you answered neither of my questions. What about the other animals that were forbidden by Leviticus? I'm quite sure that if you read all of my posts you will find answers to your questions. We've been over this before (see p2). However, re: Leviticus, here is another perspective:

Mammals, birds, fish, and even some locusts are kosher only if they meet the exacting criteria set out in the Bible and rabbinical law. From two Biblical passages (Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14:3-21), the following rules are extracted regarding which animals are kosher and which are not:

Only animals that have cloven hooves and that chew the cud are permitted. The pig does have cloven hoofs but does not chew the cud and is, consequently, forbidden. In the course of time, Jews came to have an aversion to the pig in particular, especially after Jews, in the period of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) were ready to give their lives rather than eat swine when ordered by tyrants to do so as an expression of disloyalty to the Jewish religion as a whole. Many Jews today - otherwise not too observant of the dietary laws - will still refuse steadfastly to eat the flesh of swine. It might be said, however, it is only the actual eating of the pig that is forbidden. Surprising though this may seem, there is no objection in Jewish law to a Jew having a pigskin wallet.

The passage in Deuteronomy (14:4-5) gives a list of the animals that chew the cud and have cloven hooves, and are thus kosher: oxen, sheep, goats, deer, gazelles, roebuck, wild goats, ibex, ante*lopes, and mountain sheep. It is interesting to note that whale meat and whale oil are forbid*den...not because the whale is a forbidden fish, but because the whale is a mammal that, obviously, does not have cloven hooves and does not chew the cud.

With regard to birds, the Bible gives a list of the forbidden birds, implying that all others are kosher. But since the exact identity of the birds mentioned is uncertain, it is the practice only to eat birds that are known by tradition to be kosher, such as chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, and pigeons. The eggs of forbidden birds are not kosher, but quails' eggs are permitted since the quail is a kosher bird (see Numbers 12:31-2).

Nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to a particular fish, only to fish in general. In the two passages dealing with the dietary laws, it is stated that only fish that have fins and scales are kosher. The Talmud lays down the rule that a fish that has scales also has fins, so that what actually determines which fish are kosher is the existence of scales. A problem arises as to how "scales" are defined. The medieval thinker Nahmanides understands that only scales that are detachable from the skin of the fish qualify as scales. Where they cannot be detached they are not considered to be scales at all...but part of the fish itself.

This is the reasoning behind a fierce debate that took place between rabbinical authorities in the 18th century regarding the permissibility of caviar, derived from the sturgeon, since the scales of the sturgeon cannot easily be detached from the skin of the fish, although they can be removed by the application of a lye solution. Some Orthodox Jews today do consider such caviar to be kosher, others do not. There are similar prob*lems regarding turbot and swordfish. Con*servative rabbis have ruled that swordfish is kosher, since the Talmud states explicitly that it is. Most Orthodox rabbis, however, are doubtful whether the fish mentioned in the Talmud as kosher is the swordfish. English rabbis in the 19th century ruled that the turbot is a kosher fish, but their opinion is now generally rejected by British Orthodox Jews.

Worms, frogs, eels, and all shellfish such as crabs and shrimp are not kosher. Re: locusts, the Bible (Leviticus 11:21-2) does state that four species of locust are kosher, but it is difficult to know how these can actually be identified, so that nowadays very few observ*ant Jews eat locusts (although in some oriental countries the kosher type of locusts are eaten, as they were in the Biblical period).

As noted elsewhere, the Bible forbids the eating of the meat of an animal torn by wild beasts, and it also forbids (Deuteronomy 14:21) the meat of an animal that has died of its own accord. The rabbinic understanding of these two terms is that any animal that has not been killed in the manner known as kosher slaughtering is treated as forbidden, and any animal that has serious defects in its vital organs is treated as non-kosher, so that its meat is forbidden even if it has been killed in the proper manner. This applies to birds as well as to animals.

There is vast literature on how to determine which type of organic disease renders an animal or bird non-kosher. Observant Jews, for instance, will bring to a rabbi a chicken that seems to have some defect when it is opened up. After an examination, the rabbi will declare it to be either kosher or non-kosher. Similarly, after an animal has been killed, the one who performs the slaughter is required to carefully examine the lungs of the animal to see whether there are adhesions, some of which render the animal non-kosher.

Not all adhesions on the lungs render the animal non-kosher, and a rabbi is called upon to decide in doubtful cases. But the practice has developed among the more observant of permitting only animals the lungs of which have no adhesions at all. Such an animal is called "glatt" kosher, from the Yiddish "glatt," meaning "smooth" (i.e., the lungs are smooth without adhesions). A curious development from this in more recent years is to extend the term "glatt kosher" to all products, so that when a product is stated to be "glatt," the meaning is: free of any possible taint that can render it non-kosher. "Glatt kosher" has thus come to mean something like "very kosher" or "strictly kosher."

(See p2 in this thread for further edification and clarification...

And why is swine the only unclean animal mentioned in the Qur'an?Who told you this?

Who told you this?

"O believers, eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah (God), if it is Him you serve. He has forbidden you carrion, blood, the FLESH OF THE PIG, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah (God). But if anyone is forced by necessity without wilful transgression then he/she is without sin. For God is oft forgiving, Most Merciful. " Koran 2: 172-174

This was the only scripture of the Qu'ran that you chose to cite. So in effect you told me. And all you had to do (instead of asking me who told me this) was post the other scriptures from the Qu'ran that mention other forbade animals besides swine.

As to the previous posted response. I know what the bible and torah say about which animals to eat and not to eat. The questions was meant to prompt an answer that told me what MUSLIMS thought of the other forbidden animals in Levi. So please answer that for me.

And why is swine the only unclean animal mentioned in the Qur'an?Who told you this?

"O believers, eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah (God), if it is Him you serve. He has forbidden you carrion, blood, the FLESH OF THE PIG, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah (God). But if anyone is forced by necessity without willful transgression then he/she is without sin. For God is oft forgiving, Most Merciful. " (Qur'an 2:172-174)

This was the only scripture of the Qur'an that you chose to cite. So in effect you told me.I did not tell you that swine is the only unclean animal mentioned in the Qur'an. You capitalized the words "flesh of the pig"...I will capitalize the word "CARRION." Do you see it? Do you know what it means?

I did not tell you that swine is the only unclean animal mentioned in the Qur'an. You capitalized the words "flesh of the pig"...I will capitalize the word "CARRION." Do you see it? Do you know what it means?

I didn't say you told me anything. What I said was IN EFFECT you told me that which I said because you have YET to present any other scriptures from the Qu'ran on the subject. But....you have pointed out many from the bible. So...I will just be patient and wait for scriptures from the Qu'ran on what other animals are unclean.

I already did...did you look up the word "carrion"?

A look at the lawful (halal) and the prohibited (haram) in Islam and the reasons behind the rulings:

One of the first things every Muslim child learns is what food and drinks are allowed (halal) and prohibited (haram) in Islam. With the exception of pork and animals or birds which tear their prey apart (namely: lions, falcons, eagles, hawk, leopard, wolf etc.), all other meat is lawful (halal), in Islam; provided that these meats meet certain criteria.

An important ruling to bear in mind is the fact that the meat of sheep, cows, chicken, buffalos, etc., will only be permissible if the animal has been slaughtered in the correct Islamic manner, which entails that the animal should not be allowed to suffer...it should be killed in the quickest and least painful manner, by ensuring that the blade of the knife being used for slaughter is sharp and that the slaughtering procedure is done quickly. The name of Allah (God) should be uttered during the slaughtering process. If the above criteria are not met the animal becomes prohibited for Muslim consumption. The reason for this being that the animal was made to suffer unnecessarily.

The flesh of the swine (pork, bacon, ham and all its related products including pigskin) is forbidden to all Muslims regardless of the manner in which it is slaughtered. The reason for this is that Islamically the pig is considered an unclean animal that carries disease. Recent research has proven this point, since studies has shown that pork carries a deadly parasite called "trichina," and for this reason Allah (swt), in his wisdom, has prohibited the consumption of this meat.

Any animal, which is dead before the slaughtering process, too, is considered unlawful. The reason for this being that the animal may have died due to some disease or due to having eaten some poisonous plant, etc., and once again this meat could be harmful to the person eating it. Another reason for its prohibition is so that other animals in the food chain will have food, and thirdly, so that the farmer or owner of the animal will take good care of it so that they can sell them and earn a living. In this way the animal is protected from being neglected or left to contract illnesses and die.

The flesh of a dead animal (i.e., CARRION) is also prohibited in Islam. If the animal is still alive after having been injured and is then slaughtered the animal will then be lawful for Muslim consumption. There are four types of ways in which an animal dies that makes it unlawful in Islam:

1. An animal that dies due to strangulation.
2. An animal that is gored to death by the horns of another animal.
3. An animal that dies due to a fall from a high place, and
4. The animal that had been partly eaten by wild animals.

The reason for each of the above is to teach an owner of these animals to look after the animals, because if anything happens to these animals and they die, the owner because of his negligence will lose his customers, since this flesh is now prohibited for Muslim consumption. In this way Allah (swt) ensures the safety and good care of the animals. Islamically, all marine life (animals that live in water and that cannot survive outside of it: fish, whales etc.) is lawful. Whether the animal was found alive or dead and regardless of whether the animal was whole or in pieces.

The only time any of the above-mentioned prohibited meats become permissible is if the person is starving and in danger of losing or putting his life at risk...

A look at the lawful (halal) and the prohibited (haram) in Islam and the reasons behind the rulings:

One of the first things every Muslim child learns is what food and drinks are allowed (halal) and prohibited (haram) in Islam. With the exception of pork and animals or birds which tear their prey apart (namely: lions, falcons, eagles, hawk, leopard, wolf etc.), all other meat is lawful (halal), in Islam; provided that these meats meet certain criteria.

An important ruling to bear in mind is the fact that the meat of sheep, cows,