Although most Christians either don’t know - or choose to ignore it - God strictly forbids the eating of swine flesh (pork) in the Holy Bible. This Biblical injunction and references to it can be found in the following verses: Leviticus 11:7-8; Deuteronomy 14:8; Isaiah 52:11, 65:4 and 66:17; and Ezekiel 4:14 and 44:31. And if you have a Bible that contains the Apocrypha, read 2nd Maccabees chapters 6 and 7 for a tragic and horrifying account of how those who refused to eat pork were tortured and killed by the invading Gentiles (or Europeans)...

The very name of this foul animal contains an allusion to the prohibition of its flesh. In the Arabic language it is called “khinzir,” which is a combination of “khinz,” meaning “very foul,” and “ara,” meaning “I see.” So the Arabic word for swine – “khinzir” – means, “I see it very foul.” In India the swine is known by the Hindu name “su’ar,” which is pronounced like the English word “sewer”...

The flesh of swine has been proven to be injurious, not only to man’s physical health, but to his moral and spiritual health as well. The swine eats filth and takes delight in living in dirty places. It has indecent habits and possesses the evil trait of sex-perversion. Tapeworms, scrofula, cancer and encysted trichina (i.e., trichinosis) are known to be prevalent among pork-eating people. The following is a list of “foods” categorized as swine flesh and therefore forbidden by God in the Holy Bible:

bacon, baloney, barbecue ribs and/or shoulder, chitterlings (hog intestines), fatback, ham, ham hocks (hog knees), hoghead cheese, hog maws, mountain oysters (hog testicles), neckbones, pepperoni, pig ears, feet and tails, Polish sausage, pork loin, pork chops, pork skins, roast pork, salt pork, sausage and "soucemeat" (i.e., "sow's meat" )...

The flesh and blood of not only swine, but any dead animal as food is evidently injurious to man’s health. Most authorities recognize this fact on medicine. All foods that are inherently the products of violence (i.e., slaughtering and/or butchering) have a negative effect on the body’s metabolism. This is so because all flesh foods (beef, pork, lamb, fish and fowl) are the end result of murder...

Consider this profound poem re: the perils of eating pork by an anonymous author:

FROM HIS TAIL TO HIS SNOUT...

He was made a scavenger, and God says he’s unclean,
and what else can we find so filthy and mean?...

Eat not his flesh, nor touch his dead carcass,
for with sin and disease it surely will mark us...

Oh yes, dear people, God’s word, it is just,
still we eat the ol’ greaser, yes eat him we must...

The dirtiest of all beasts, we will not be without,
so we eat the slop-eater, from his tail to his snout...

We would be much better off if we obeyed God’s command,
and ate the vegetables, fruits, and grains of the land.

We pray long and loud, we jump and we shout,
still we eat the ol’ greaser from his tail to his snout...

How we sing, “Oh Happy Day,” and talk of love all divine,
then like vultures we feast on the dirty ol’ swine...

We might shun many ills and diseases, no doubt,
by discarding the hog from his tail to his snout...

It has been suggested by some that man was created to be a vegetarian. We may well have strayed from the original intention of our Creator. However, being of sinful nature, Christ has covered our shortcomings (sins) and said that what goes into our mouths is not as important as what comes out of it.
The context of meat prohibitions as described in the Old Testament had the purpose of public health for a fledgling, uninitiated band of about 2 million Israelites. God wisely proscribed certain foods that were likely to cause illnesses that would prevent their top performance in the battles ahead. Scavenger fish and animals were likely to contain disease; parasites could find their way into animals that had split hooves. Shellfish are bottom feeders (scavengers). Everything that God created is good for man. The trip across the desert was a special, unique episode in the development of Israel and its journey to Canaan.
And of course, we now have refrigerators, antibiotics, and other modern means to make the meats disease free. In my opinion, the precautions stated in the early texts were of a public health nature, not purely of a spiritual or godly edict,...never to be breeched.

I AGREE WITH IMHOTEP

Many of the "rules" of the old testement were for our protection and nothing more. As I said before...It is bad for us to consume as much meat as we do. However, it is a result of our glutony not our diet. If it were simply a question of us eating meat at all, eskimoes would have much more disease and illness than us...but they do not.

I find that many Muslims hate pork, but love shellfish....how is this ok?

And on a humorous note....why have I never seen any well built, muscular vegetarians?...lol

What cha think?

peace and luv
Dre'

I AGREE WITH IMHOTEP

Many of the "rules" of the Old Testament were for our protection and nothing more. As I said before...it is bad for us to consume as much meat as we do. However, it is a result of our gluttony, not our diet. If it were simply a question of us eating meat at all, Eskimos would have much more disease and illness than us...but they do not.
God's laws of right eating are contained in the Old Testament. And remember, Eskimos do not eat the same kind of animal flesh as people do in this country. They subsist solely on the whale, which provides them with not only their dietary needs, but many other needs as well.


I find that many Muslims hate pork, but love shellfish...how is this ok?
God forbids the eating of swine flesh in the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an. I am not aware of any Muslim loving shellfish, which is a mollusk or crustacean having a shell-like exoskeleton.


And on a humorous note...why have I never seen any well-built, muscular vegetarians?...lol

What cha think?

peace and luv
Dre'
Hold up now...Just because YOU haven't seen any doesn't mean that there AREN'T any. There are several NBA players who are vegetarians, and from what I can see, they are well-built and muscular. And remember, all the prophets in the Old Testament were vegetarians.

And you KNOW Jesus didn't eat no pork chops...:read:

Lev. 11 1-2
The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them: 2..Speak to the people of Israel, saying; from among all the land animals t
these are the creatures that you may eat....

There is an entire list of which ANIMALS we may eat and those that we may not....among those in the NOT category are 'pork and anything in the waters that do not have fins and scales i.e. shellfish.'

I know only a few Muslims and of them all condemn pork and all of them eat shrimp and many other types of shellfish.


Luke 24 42-43
42--They gave him (JESUS) a piece of broiled fish,:43--and he took it and ate in their presence.

There are other examples of Jesus eating meat in the BIble including particpating in passover which is a meal of Lamb.

I can not thank you enough Aqil. Before our discussion/debate I admited to my ignorance on the subject of Jesus being a vegetarian and struggled with the quesion of wheather or not I should adopt it for myself because it was God's wish, but now I KNOW through research of the Bible that Jesus was NOT a vegetarian and that it is ok for me to partake in meat in moderation.

I have no knowledge of the Qur'an or any of the other Holy books, so obviously I am at a disadvantage in that regard, but since you have been trying to use the Bible to bolster your claim that we as Christians should be vegetarians, I am confident in my research and my subsequent finding that Jesus and other prophets were indeed meat eaters.

Which NBA players are vegetarians?... And I know there may be a few that are well-built, but for the most part (and ALL of the ones i have seen) vegetarians are thin and lacking muscular definition. I am a personal trainer and have vegetarian clients and their is a definate difference in their muscle tone and that of us filthy meat eaters. (smile)

peace and luv
Dre'

The Apostle Luke wrote:

"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?*

And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

And he took it, and did eat before them..."

(Luke 24:41-43)


*He might have just taken the piece of honeycomb, A007...(the word "meat" is the Greek translation for the English word "food").

Those who are not acquainted with ecclesiastical history may suppose that the book called the New Testament has existed ever since the time of Jesus Christ. But the fact is historically otherwise. There was no such book as the New Testament until more than 400 years after the time that Christ is said to have lived...

The word "meat" in the Bible is actually English in origin and means "food" in general. Throughout the Bible the words "animal flesh" are used when describing meat as we know it. Next time you read the words "meat offering" in the Bible, remember the correct translation is "food offering." Read Ezekiel 47:12 for further clarification...

*He might have just taken the piece of honeycomb, A007...(the word "meat" is the Greek translation for the English word "food").

True...and he might have eaten the fish seeing as how he participated in passover meals and helped fisherman fish it is rationale to believe that he would not have turned down the broiled fish. And....wouldn't these men have known that he did not eat fish (and did not want them eating it either)?? So..they probably wouldn't have offered him fish if it were forbidden.

"Lev. 11 1-2
The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them: 2..Speak to the people of Israel, saying; from among all the land animals
these are the creatures that you may eat....

There is an entire list of which ANIMALS we may eat and those that we may not....among those in the NOT category are 'pork and anything in the waters that do not have fins and scales i.e. shellfish.'

I know only a few Muslims and of them all condemn pork and all of them eat shrimp and many other types of shellfish. "

Address these please...

He might have just taken the piece of honeycomb, A007...(the word "meat" is the Greek translation for the English word "food").

A007:

"True...and he might have eaten the fish, seeing as how he participated in Passover meals and helped fisherman fish, it is rational to believe that he would not have turned down the broiled fish. And...wouldn't these men have known that he did not eat fish (and did not want them eating it either)? So...they probably wouldn't have offered him fish if it were forbidden."

Jesus' disciples ask where they will get enough bread to feed the multitudes, never even thinking of buying fish or other animal products, and never suggesting a fishing expedition, despite being the sea. Also, evidence indicates that the story of the loaves and the fishes did not originally include fish. For example, the earliest accounts of this miracle do not include fish, and Jesus, when he refers to it, refers only to the bread (e.g., Matthew 16:9-10, Mark 8:19-20 and John 6:26).

Fish were added to the Bible stories by Greek scribes, probably because the Greek word for fish, "ixous," is an acronym for the phrase, "Jesus Christ Son of God-Savior." Indeed, the fish is still a symbol of Christianity today. In this very likely interpretation, the multiplication represents a prediction of the burgeoning church, Jesus making his disciples "fishers of men" as he promised, and has nothing to do with eating animals.

Also, some scholars contend that the Greek word for "fishweed" (a dried seaweed) has been mistranslated in this story as "fish." It is certainly true that dried fishweed would be more likely in a basket with bread, and fishweed remains a popular food among Jewish and Arab peasants...like the people to whom Jesus was speaking...

A007:

"I know only a few Muslims and of them all condemn pork and all of them eat shrimp and many other types of shellfish."

You have proffered another frivolous falsehood, A007. I AM Muslim, and I KNOW that shrimp is forbidden to eat because it is a scavenger, like the pig. None of the Muslims I know - and I know quite a few...all over the country - eat shrimp or shellfish. In fact, many are becoming vegetarians...

And God forbids the eating of swine flesh in the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Bible...

A007:

"There are other examples of Jesus eating meat in the Bible, including participating in the Passover, which is a meal of lamb."

You are wrong again, A007...this time on both counts. (1) There are no other examples of Jesus eating meat in the Bible...and (2) Jesus was a Essene, a spiritual sect that practiced vegetarianism. The Essene Paschal Meal took place at sundown on Wednesdays, and the meal consisted of herbs and boiled vegetables...

Btw, Kareem Abdul Jabbar was a vegetarian during is playing years...and so was Robert "The Chief" Parrish, who played until he was 40. And so was Bill Walton. Anthony Peeler of the Minnesota Timberwolves is a vegetarian...

Lev. 11 1-2
The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them: 2..Speak to the people of Israel, saying; from among all the land animals
these are the creatures that you may eat....

Did this not happen?

God forbids the eating of swine flesh (pork) in the Holy Bible. This law - and references to it - can be found in the Old Testament Books of Leviticus 11:7-8; Deuteronomy 14:8; Isaiah 65:4 and 66:17; Ezekiel 4:14 and 44:31.

There is an entire list of which ANIMALS we may eat and those that we may not....among those in the NOT category are 'SWINE and anything in the waters that do not have fins and scales i.e. shellfish.'

So I understand why you and others believe that swine and SOME other animals are forebidden for us to eat.

To answer your question...... Why Do Most Christians Eat Pork When It Is Forbidden In The Bible?...

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and his death and resurrection was the fulfillment of God's NEW covenant which made all that was old.."the convenant of our fathers" obsolete. Had this not taken place...there are many many laws that we would be breaking every day ...such as women covering their heads...and us not providing living sacrifices as repentance and many more.

God's laws of eating and right living that are contained in the Old Testament are forever...that "establishing a new covenant" theory is pure nonsense...Jesus read the Old Testament (there was no "New Testament" until 400 years after his death), and he obeyed his Father's laws contained therein...

You asked why CHRISTIANS eat pork....I told you....For you to debate weather or not our belief in a new covenant is valid is neither the point nor something I am willing to debate on the basis of what you have read and believe from other humans that have no other motive than to seem scholarly and garner some fame by discrediting what people believe.

For me RELIGION in and of itself is wrong. I am a Christian because I believe Christ was the son of God and he died for our sins. I abide by the Ten Commandments and I continually try to grow in grace. All of these other insignifigant facts have no bearing on my love for God or my ability to be a light unto his kingdom. I believe he division of people based on RELIGION is against God's will.

Being a Christian does not refer to a belief that a certain man was killed by a mob in order that our sins might be forgiven. In fact, that is utter nonsense, for it would make null and void the law of cause and effect, and contradict – point blank – the Biblical declaration that “we must work out our own salvation.”

My question is this: Who translated the Bible for modern man AND, Aqil...people tend to take words literally in their meaning. So because there are so many different versions of the Bible on the market today, how is one supposed to know which is the actual version to follow if the words used today don't mean what they were originally intended?

Another question I have is the point that imhotep raised about his interpretation between the Old and New Testaments. I too have wondered about this.

I am no Bible scholar and am truly ignorant about a great many things printed in it. For Christians, true, it's all we have to live our lives by, but could some of God's Laws as written in the Old Testament, been relaxed or modified in the New (i.e., what we can and can't eat)?

If the NT was written some 400 hundreds after Christ, does anyone here know why that was? I thought that desciples and prophets wrote the Books in the Bible, so what happened? How was the information contained in the NT arrived at?

I know I'm taking this off the topic a bit, but I'm very interested in knowing how it is that we use, for the most part, the King James version as our scriptural textbook? Weren't there what they call, "lost" books of the Bible? If so, who decided which books would actually be printed in THE Bible and why? What are the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Ok, I'm done...someone please help me out!

Aqil --
Well what does being Christian refer to?

And for the record...what is utter nonsense is for you to suggest how ridulous someone elses faith is...as if you were enlightened enough, smart enough, powerful enough to make that judement, when all you are doing is excepting some Man's research as fact when it is nothing more than interpretation...and just because some self-serving men get together and agree on what COULD HAVE HAPPENED(meaning that they are not sure) ..DOES NOT MAKE IT FACT.

I should have seen this post by now, but just in case you didn't I wanted to give you another opportunity to respond to it. ;)

peace
Dre'

Thou Shalt Not Kill

The following is a dialogue between Cardinal Jean Danielou of Paris and the famous Indian guru Swami Srila Prabhupida concerning the Biblical admonition, “Thou Shalt Not Kill.”

Srila Prabhupida says: “the Bible does not simply say, ‘Do not kill human beings.’ It says broadly, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience? When there is no food, someone may eat meat in order to keep from starving. That is another thing. But it is most sinful to regularly maintain slaughterhouses just to satisfy your tongue.”

Srila Prabhupida: Jesus Christ said, “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” So why is it that the Christian people are engaged in animal killing?

Cardinal Danielou: Certainly in Christianity it is forbidden to kill, but we believe that there is a difference between the life of a human being and the life of the beasts. The life of a human being is sacred because man is made in the image of God; therefore, to kill a human being is forbidden.

Srila Prabhupida: But the Bible does not simply say, “Do not kill the human being.” It says broadly, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Cardinal Danielou: We believe that only human life is sacred.

Srila Prabhupida: That is your interpretation. The commandment is, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Cardinal Danielou: It is necessary for man to kill animals in order to have food to eat.

Srila Prabhupida: No. Man can eat grains, vegetables, fruits, and milk.

Cardinal Danielou: No flesh?

Srila Prabhupida: No. Human beings are meant to eat vegetarian food. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. His prescribed food is animal flesh. But man’s food is vegetables, fruits, grains, and milk products. So how can you say that animal killing is not a sin?

Cardinal Danielou: We believe it is a question of motivation. If the killing of an animal is for giving food to the hungry, then it is justified.

Srila Prabhupida: But consider the cow…we drink her milk; therefore, she is our mother. Do you agree?

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely.

Srila Prabhupida: So if the cow is your mother, how can you support killing her? You take the milk from her, and when she’s old and cannot give you milk, you cut her throat. Is that a very humane proposal? In India those who are meateaters are advised to kill some lower animals like goats, pigs, or even buffalo. But cow killing is the greatest sin. In preaching Krishna consciousness we ask people not to eat any kind of meat, and my disciples strictly follow this principle. But if, under certain circumstances, others are obliged to eat meat, then they should eat the flesh of some lower animal. Don’t kill cows…it is the greatest sin. And as long as a man is sinful, he cannot understand God. The human being’s main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if you remain sinful, you will never be able to understand God – what to speak of loving Him.

Cardinal Danielou: I think that perhaps this is not an essential point. The important thing is to love God. The practical commandments can vary from one religion to the next.

Srila Prabhupida: So, in the Bible God’s practical commandment is that if you cannot kill; therefore killing cows is a sin for you.

Cardinal Danielou: God says to the Indians that killing is not good, and he says to the Jews that…

Srila Prabhupida: No, no. Jesus Christ taught, “Thou shalt not kill.” Why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?

Cardinal Danielou: But Jesus allowed the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb...

Srila Prabhupida: But he never maintained a slaughterhouse.

Cardinal Danlelou: No, but he did eat meat.

Srila Prabhupida: When there is no other food, someone may eat meat in order to keep from starving. That is another thing. But it is most sinful to regularly maintain slaughterhouses just to satisfy your tongue. Actually, you will not even have a human society until this cruel practice of maintaining slaughterhouses is stopped. And although animal killing may sometimes be necessary for survival, at least the mother animal, the cow, should not be killed. That is simply human decency. In the Krishna consciousness movement our practice is that we don’t allow the killing of any animals. Krishna says: “Vegetables, fruits, milk, and grains should be offered to Me in devotion.” (Bhagavad-gita, 9.26) We take only the remnants of Krishna’s food .The trees offer us many varieties of fruits, but the trees are not killed. Of course, one living entity is food for another living entity, but that does not mean you can kill your mother for food. Cows are innocent; they give us milk. You take their milk - and then kill them in the slaughterhouse. This is sinful.

Student: Srila Prabhupada, Christianity’s sanction of meat eating is based on the view that lower species of life do not have a soul like the human being’s.

Srila Prabhupida: That is foolishness. First of all, we have to understand the evidence of the soul’s presence within the body, and then we can see whether the human being has a soul and the cow does not. What are the different characteristics of the cow and man? If we find a difference in characteristics, then we can say that in the animal there is no soul. But if we see that the animal and the human being have the same characteristics, then how can you say that the animal has no soul? The general symptoms are that the animal eats, you eat; the animal sleeps, you sleep; the animal mates, you mate; the animal defends, and you defend. Where is the difference?

Cardinal Danielou: We admit that in the animal there may be the same type of biological existence as in men, but there is no soul We believe that the soul is a human soul

Srila Prabhupida: Our Bhagavad-gita says: “In all species of life the soul exists.” The body is like a suit of clothes. You have black clothes; I am dressed in saffron clothes But within the dress you are a human being, and I am also a human being. Similarly, the bodies of the different species are just like different types of dress. There are 8,400,000 species, or dresses, but within each one is a spirit soul a part and parcel of God. Suppose a man has two sons, not equally meritorious One may be a Supreme Court judge and the other may be a common laborer, but the father claims both as his sons. He does not make the distinction that the son who is a judge is very important, and the worker’s son is not important And if the judge’s son says, “My dear father, your other son is useless; let me cut him up and eat him.” Will the father allow this?

Cardinal Danielou: Certainly not, but the idea that all life is part of the life of God is difficult for us to admit There is a great difference between human life and animal life.

Srila Prabbupida: That difference is due to the development of consciousness. In the human body there is developed consciousness. Even a tree has a soul, but a tree’s consciousness is not very developed. If you cut a tree it does not resist Actually, it does resist, but only to a very small degree There is a scientist named Jagadish Chandra Bose who has made a machine which shows that trees and plants are able to feel pain when they are cut. And we can see directly that when someone comes to kill an animal, it resists, it cries, it makes a horrible sound. So it is a mat-ter of the development of consciousness. But the soul is there within all living beings.

Cardinal Danielou: But metaphysically, the life of man is sacred. Human beings think on a higher platform than the animals do.

Srila Prabhupida: What is that higher platform? The animal eats to maintain its body, and you also eat in order to maintain your body. The cow eats grass in the field, and the human being eats meat from a huge slaughterhouse full of modern machines. But just because you have big machines and a ghastly scene, while the animal simply eats grass, this does not mean that you are so advanced that only within your body is there a soul and that there is not a soul within the body of the animal. That is illogical. We can see that the basic characteristics are the same in the animal and the human being.

Cardinal Danielou: But only in human beings do we find a metaphysical search for the meaning of life.

Srila Prabhupida: Yes. So metaphysically search out why you believe that there is no soul within the animal – that is metaphysics. If you are thinking metaphysically, that’s all right. But if you are thinking like an animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical study? Metaphysical means “above the physical” or, in other words, “spiritual.” In the Bhagavad-gita Krishna says, “In every living being there is a spirit soul.” That is metaphysical understanding. Now either you accept Krishna’s teachings as metaphysical, or you’ll have to take a third-class fool’s opinion as metaphysical. Which do you accept?

Cardinal Danielou: But why does God create some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation, it seems.
Srila Prabhupida: It is not a fault. God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He’ll give you full facility. God will give you the body of a tiger in your next life so that you can eat flesh very freely. “Why are you maintaining slaughterhouses? I’ll give you fangs and claws. Now eat.” So the meat eaters are awaiting such punishment. The animal-eaters become tigers, wolves, cats, and dogs in their next life – to get more facility.

You remind me of the Cardinal, A007...:)

Aqil--
Again you offer no thought of your own. and yet again the theory is flawed.

"There is a scientist named Jagadish Chandra Bose who has made a machine which shows that trees and plants are able to feel pain when they are cut."

Operating from this premise then we should eat nothing but fruit because in the case of vegetables the plant has to be cut..i.e. feel pain and subsequently killed in order for us to eat.

Why is it ok for us to kill plants for food if all life is Sacred?

The dislike of the practice of slaughterhouses is understandable, but it does not mean we should be strictly vegetarians....See Leviticus 11 2-23

You remind me of Srila...:)

And do you too believe that cows are our mothers and that it is possible for us to come back as tigers?

c'mon Aqil don't tell me you're feelin' that dialogue :lol:

Srila says "Don't kill cows... it is the greatest sin."
that is rediculous.
and
"cows are our mothers.."
what? :lol: :confused:

you must have stronger examples than that one.
Aqil, it seems silly that you would use Srila's demented views for you emphasis.

Jehiah:

If you have something to offer in defense of your rather caviling criticisms...or if you can refute Srila's stance on vegetarianism, I'm willing to listen. Remember, it's easier to be critical than to be correct...

Aqil--

I guess you just didn't see my reply..huh?
lol

Aqil, when that dialogue take place? Just curious...

From a book titled, The Science of Self-Realization, published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust in 1977...

"Aqil--
Again you offer no thought of your own. and yet again the theory is flawed."
I always offer my own thoughts, A007...read all my threads in this forum since you - however falsely - think otherwise...and I beg to differ with you re: your unfounded "flawed theory" claim.


"'There is a scientist named Jagadish Chandra Bose who has made a machine which shows that trees and plants are able to feel pain when they are cut.'" Operating from this premise then we should eat nothing but fruit because in the case of vegetables the plant has to be cut...i.e., feel pain and subsequently killed in order for us to eat.

Why is it ok for us to kill plants for food if all life is sacred?"
I defer to Srila Prabhupida: "Human beings are meant to eat vegetarian food. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. His prescribed food is animal flesh. But man’s food is vegetables, fruits, grains, and milk products..."


"The dislike of the practice of slaughterhouses is understandable, but it does not mean we should be strictly vegetarians...See Leviticus 11: 2-23."
I know of the clean animals that God prescribes for man to eat in the Leviticus...in His Infinite Wisdom He takes into account those who live where there is little or no vegetation...


"You remind me of Srila..."
I am honored...


"And do you too believe that cows are our mothers, and that it is possible for us to come back as tigers?"
Re: your first question: This is true for those who drink cow's milk. I don't...and once again I defer to Srila Prabhupida for the answer to your second question:

"God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He’ll give you full facility. God will give you the body of a tiger in your next life so that you can eat flesh very freely. “Why are you maintaining slaughterhouses? I’ll give you fangs and claws. Now eat.” So the meat-eaters are awaiting such punishment. The animal-eaters become tigers, wolves, cats, and dogs in their next life – to get more facility."

Aqil--

Why is it ok for us to kill plants for food if all life is sacred?"
I defer to Srila Prabhupida: "Human beings are meant to eat vegetarian food. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. His prescribed food is animal flesh. But man’s food is vegetables, fruits, grains, and milk products..."

This does not adaquately answer the question. The theory is that vegetation
is our prescribed food..and you all use "thou shall not kill" to back that theory up.

Is it not true that the plants (vegetables) have to be 'cut' i.e. feel pain and then killed in order for us to eat them? So in that regard we would still be 'killing life"

"I know of the clean animals that God prescribes for man to eat in the Leviticus...in His Infinite Wisdom He takes into account those who live where there is little or no vegetation..."

These verses do not say that these prescribed foods are for those who "live where there is little or no vegetation."
It says "from among all the land animals these are the creatures you may eat"

We in america drink cow's milk (even though it is terrible for us) and don't think of cow's as our mothers.

When a pig finishes eating he will mount the nearest pig, male or female...it doesn't matter. That's sex perversion...

And what do you say about dogs? As you know a dog will mount anything including a man, he will also lick his own member...how do you rate that?
We're talking about animals that people eat in this country, prome...they eat dogs in the Far East...


I admit that eating pork is not healthy, on that one we are 100% the same, but I just do not think we can judge the pig the same way as we do man...
I disagree.


Only man has the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong. A pig does not think as a man therefore it cannot be judged on the strength of human law. Only man can sin if that is not so God would have made a good book for animals as well.
What is the source of this farcical information?


BY THE WAY, THIS IS A GOOD TOPIC. :)
Thank you. However, your caviling comments are not reflective of this...

Aqil I do not agree with you but that dose not mean that I do not think that this is not a good topic. I apologize for my behavior and I have taken down my comments to your post. Its interesting to note that you tend to use big words to hide insult to others opinions. i.e. Farcical is ABSURD. Caviling is trivial. My thoughts on things are nether ABSURD nor are thy trivial. debate and insult are 2 different things. :argue: by the way the source my information is my mind.





P.S I was not attempting to be trivial Aqil I was just trying to generate a little debate.

I hope that we can keep this debate on a civil and respectful level. All opinions should be respected even if they differ from our own. Having said that, here are my questions and comments on this topic.

As I read through this complex dialogue several questions come to mind. Given that this is the religion/spirituality forum, I can understand why topics and responses will be guided by religious philosophies. The focus of this thread is to point out or question man's consumption of pork and all other animal flesh. But most of my questions want to know the distinction between eating and wearing or using products that are made from animal flesh.

Even though this topic is about food consumption, doesn't man consume things from it's environment in ways other than eating too? Where does that fit into the whole religious scheme of things?

In spite of what some religious texts reveal, eating meat is part of most people's daily lifestyle. I don't know much about Muslims but many Christians don't hesitate to eat it, including pork. Why is that?

How did it come about that so many humans became meat eaters and why do so many find it easy to do? Did someone see it as a way to get rich and profit off of it? If we're created to be vegetarians how is it that we developed tastes for animal flesh even when so vegetation is aorund us?

Slaughterhouses...cruel and despicable practice...but how soon we forget as many of us choose to eat meals created around a hunk of animal flesh anyway.

Worst yet, is the fact that animals are killed for sport. Legally, people purchase licenses to go out every year to kill animals. And they brag about it and are proud of it and build trophies of their kill. Where does the State spend the money it gets from hunters who pay for these licenses to kill?

Illegally, there are those who kill animals to poach their parts because they are in demand by people thousands of miles away who are able to buy them. Animal fur and skins in the form of coats, hats, gloves, clothes and shoes. Goose down pillows and comforters that we sleep with. Isn't that consumption? To control "over population", our government allows horses, wolves, alligators, deer etc. to be killed so that man can control his environment. What happened to the American buffalo? And their parts don't go to waste either. We eat them, we wear them. Isn't that consumption?

Environmentalists try to make us aware that animals shouldn't be killed for man's folly and suggest that certain products be boycotted. Some of these efforts work so more and more women are reading labels and not buying certain cosmetics and perfumes where animals are raised and slaughtered for use in these products. Yet when they go grocery shopping...their carts are filled with meat.

How many of us proudly drive cars with leather seats or feel good about the leather furniture in our homes? How many of us wear shoes made of leather or carry a purse/wallet made of leather?

Let's look at medicine. What about animals that have parts used to save man's life...hearts, valves, and other parts to help man overcome certain diseases or to boost their immune system? There are farms to raise these animals, some are even starting to be cloned.

Are those who don't eat meat more spiritually correct? How about if vegetarians also wear or own products made from animals?

Queen ---

Those questions are GREAT! IMHO none of the consumption is bad or has an effect on our spritual well being.

God gave us dominion over all. As long as we don't kill animals for sport we are ok.

Very good questions about wearing animal products.

What cha think Aqil?

A007 and NNQ:

It is becoming increasingly more important for people to know what foods they should not eat, because too many are eating the wrong foods, and don’t even know it!

Then they wonder how they contract diseases like high blood pressure, gout, gallstones, kidney stones, arteriosclerosis (hardening of the blood arteries caused by excessive animal fat in the bloodstream – a major cause of heart attacks), strokes, serious skin problems (due to the consumption of too many acid foods), obesity, etc.

Recent medical studies have shown that men who consume large amounts of beef have a tendency to contract colon cancer, and women who did the same contracted vaginal cancer and cancer of the colon as well. Man is on a path of self-destruction as long as he continues to disobey God’s laws of right eating. (See Leviticus 3:17; 7:26 and 11:7-8.)

Those who have given this subject consideration will not deny the fact that man is a vegetarian by nature. It is obvious that his teeth are designed to masticate vegetables, fruits, nuts and grains, whereas the teeth of carnivorous animals – which are tusk-like – are best adapted for flesh-tearing, and are also grown apart, so as to prevent the lodgment of particles of decayed flesh in the animal’s mouth.

Man’s intestinal tract is also more complicated, and nearly three times as long as the intestinal tract of animals that live on flesh. Besides the shortness of the intestinal tract of carnivorous animals when compared with that of man, it is also very smooth, while the intestines of man have numerous folds and pouches.

What we see here is that the intestines of beasts of prey are constructed so that their diet of flesh – which quickly decays – may be eliminated in the shortest possible time. The liver of these animals is also of enormous size, and is very active, thus fully capable of neutralizing and eliminating twelve to fifteen times as much acid as the human liver.

It is now common knowledge that a balanced diet is absolutely necessary to our health and well being. Therefore, in balancing our meals we should always be certain to give preference to the alkaline foods (fresh vegetables, fruits and most grains), while the acid-producing foods should be used sparingly (i.e., no more than two or three times a week).

Acid foods are divided into two categories: organic acid (eggs, cheese, nuts and cereals) and inorganic acid (animal flesh, various animal by-products, all manufactured substances such as white sugar, white flour and all white-flour products). It is advisable to eliminate the inorganic substances altogether from your diet...

Alkaline foods consist of but one type, namely the organic variety. These foods are readily absorbed into the system, thus permitting the remineralization of the body. This being true, these products – i.e., fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts and most grains – should constitute 90% of the diet at all times, while the acid-producing foods should form the remaining 10%.

Following this procedure, one may automatically maintain optimum health, and enjoy complete freedom from even what may be considered incurable diseases...

Peace,


As a Muslim, I will tell you that Muslims are allowed to eat of anything from the water.....that's why you'll find them eating eating shellfish..I personally don't....

As for the pork issue, yes, it may have been to prevent the Isrealites from being sick and all, yet, GOD'S LAW is LAW until stated otherwise......the consumption of swine has NEVER been allowed in Christianity....remember, Jesus himself has said "I came to FULFILL the law, not ABOLISH it".......


lol, and it's very interesting you would introduce the Muslims into this thread...aqil's post was about the consumption of swine among the Christians...it had nothing to do with fish, foul, or anything other than swine....yet, the issue of what some MUSLIMS do and whether it is right or wrong is brought up.....see, I understand your concern, yet, why introduce it into this thread...and then asking him to address the issue...we SHOULD address the issue...let's...

the consumption of swine is forbidden in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.... the consumption of fish is not.....


now, before you go on and on about what others do, remember what Jesus said:
"Before pointin out the twig in your brother's eye, remove the LOG from your own"...


PEACE

Originally posted by A007

For me RELIGION in and of itself is wrong. I am a Christian because I believe Christ was the son of God and he died for our sins. I abide by the Ten Commandments and I continually try to grow in grace. All of these other insignifigant facts have no bearing on my love for God or my ability to be a light unto his kingdom. I believe he division of people based on RELIGION is against God's will.


If you don't mind my asking....if you believe Jesus to have died for your sins, then WHY follow the ten commandments??? Jesus has already atoned for your sins..so u can sin now, becuase the price has already been paid by Jesus, no??



Peace

Peace,

I'll add my two cents in here and attempt to answer your question NNQ from my pointview...for any who want/need background as to where my pointview stems, I am a Muslim, but have studied under Christedelphians for a long time and other Christian groups......

Anyhow
Even though this topic is about food consumption, doesn't man consume things from it's environment in ways other than eating too? Where does that fit into the whole religious scheme of things?

You're right...consumption does not only center on eating...we consume information..it simply means to take in....seeing as how in all the three monotheistic religions, the pig is seen as an unclean animal, I see no reason why his skin, his intestines, his feet, or any other part of the pig should be in any products that humans eat, wear, put on, etc....(for those who don't know, MANY cosmetics contain swine by-products...many foods do as well...candy,etc....we must know what it is they are giving us to consume!).......I'm going to give crude examples to prove my point, so please bear with me........ human feces is unclean as it contains many germs, etc., yet, I'm sure if one tried hard enough, one can make clothing, etc., out of it...yet we do not because it is UNCLEAN....

Blood is unclean, yet we do not run around trying to make products out of it...there are many different htings that can eb used to make clothings, foods, cosmetics, etc., from things other than swine...

In spite of what some religious texts reveal, eating meat is part of most people's daily lifestyle. I don't know much about Muslims but many Christians don't hesitate to eat it, including pork. Why is that?

The answer to that question would be the fact that society influences many of man's choices....the fact that many religious texts reveal many things does not change the fact that society has outlawed or allowed the things that these religious texts have revealed....for example, sex outside of marriage is prohibited in the Judaic, Christian and Islamic religious texts, yet, many from all three faiths do not hesitate to engage in sexual activities outside of marriage...why? because society no longer looks down upon it as much....when society becomes secular, the population tends to go along...

Also, one must look at education as a factor...if you go and talk to a person who is well versed in the Torah, you will not find them eating meat...if you talk to someone who is well versed in the Bible, you will not find them eating meat (the Christians I've studied under do not consume meat...)...if you go and talk to a person who si well versed in the Qur'an you will not find them eating meat.......see, the problem today is that many people do NOT know what their religious texts say, and therefore they are ignorant of what they should be hesitiant to do or eat...

How did it come about that so many humans became meat eaters and why do so many find it easy to do? Did someone see it as a way to get rich and profit off of it? If we're created to be vegetarians how is it that we developed tastes for animal flesh even when so vegetation is aorund us?

I don't know how it came about....the consumption of meat is not healthy to human beings..yet, I know in the Qur'an it is not totally forbidden...however, how it came about, I'd say is from ignorance, or maybe from the fact that some climates make it hard to survive off of plant foods alone....the issue of whether we are created to be something, why do we develope tastes for something else is simple......we are created to be godly, yet we continuosly act devilish...it's all about what influences you have around you and what paths you chose to follow....

Worst yet, is the fact that animals are killed for sport. Legally, people purchase licenses to go out every year to kill animals. And they brag about it and are proud of it and build trophies of their kill. Where does the State spend the money it gets from hunters who pay for these licenses to kill?

No idea..i don't know...

Isn't that consumption? To control "over population", our government allows horses, wolves, alligators, deer etc. to be killed so that man can control his environment. What happened to the American buffalo? And their parts don't go to waste either. We eat them, we wear them. Isn't that consumption?

That IS consumption, but we must also be careful how we view the by-products...for example...let's say we butchered a cow in order to eat to sustain ourselves...if we then used that cow's hide to make leather clothes, and we used its bones for tools, etc., then it is consumption, but it's not unmerited...hmm...how do I explain this...

It's how the Indians of North Americans lived...they would kill the buffalo to live off of its flesh, yet they would not let any of it go to waste..and they would not kill it merely for the leather..no, they'd kill it ONLY when it was necessary...the extinction/decrease in population of the American Buffalo is due to the white man....when the Europeans came over to the New World, they would hunt the buffalo for sport..there was an abundance of buffalo at that time, and it was "sport" for them to run them out of the pasture where they were grazing and try to hunt them down....so, that's what happened to them and that's the difference between consumption for no reason, and consumption for survival, but making the most of the consumed animal....

How many of us proudly drive cars with leather seats or feel good about the leather furniture in our homes? How many of us wear shoes made of leather or carry a purse/wallet made of leather?

All these things have become so prevalent that many people are not aware of them unless they are made a big issue in the media..ignorance, again, plays a big part in what people do and don't do......I don't drive, lol, so I don't know bout that....I don't have any leather furniture in my home, and I don't think I ever will...but there are some "pleather" things now, so lol, i might get the "next best thing"...lol......It's an interesting aspect tho, the fact that people purchase leather products.........would the purchase of them make people kill more animals to make them? or is it bad to not purchase them and let the killin of that animal go to waste???

Let's look at medicine. What about animals that have parts used to save man's life...hearts, valves, and other parts to help man overcome certain diseases or to boost their immune system? There are farms to raise these animals, some are even starting to be cloned.

Believe it or not, the majority of diseases that man has are a result of the dietary habits that we've become accostumed to ....and what's more, the animals used to "save man's life" are usually the results of the diseases.....


As for the rest, I don't know...


PEACE

" lol, and it's very interesting you would introduce the Muslims into this thread...aqil's post was about the consumption of swine among the Christians...it had nothing to do with fish, foul, or anything other than swine....yet, the issue of what some MUSLIMS do and whether it is right or wrong is brought up.....see, I understand your concern, yet, why introduce it into this thread...and then asking him to address the issue...we SHOULD address the issue...let's... "

Yes let's. The reason so many Christians eat pork is simply because they believe a new covenant was formed with God with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Matchbook lady I know you probably don't have the background on the discussion between Aqil and myself but this discussion started from Aqil saying that we are vegetarians by nature....thus the references to fish etc.

"now, before you go on and on about what others do, remember what Jesus said:
"Before pointin out the twig in your brother's eye, remove the LOG from your own"..."

I agree 100% so why are you two judging christians?

As for the pig being an unclean animal... the word unclean was used to refer to ALL scavengers. This includes MUCH of the fish in the sea. So..why is it ok to eat some 'unclean' animals and not others for Muslims?

Peace,

I must ask for your apology cuz I just went and did some research on it, and it seems that i've been misinformed....it's not all animals from the sea...it's only fish which have scales....so there you have it.....Muslims are allowed to eat all those fish in the sea who have scales, AND, they are only lawful if they were alive when caught.....I'll let you know if i find any other information....

Now, you say: The reason so many Christians eat pork is simply because they believe a new covenant was formed with God with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Okay, well then, this means the old covenant is out the door, right??? then when Jesus(Pbuh) says "I have come to fulfill the law, and not abolish it"..(law being the covenant between God and the Hebrews), would that mean he's lying??? if Jesus (pbuh) is God, surely God does not lie?? Also, as I've said I've studied under many Christians, and I've yet to see any evidence of this new covenant...can you provide me with the evidence of it?? what are God's promises in it, what are man's promises in it???


.....and, Aqil started this thread asking if the Bible forbids it, why do the Christians still consume swine?? that was a QUESTION, not a critique/judgement...it opened way for debate, yet the issue of Islam and Muslims was never introduced till y'all introduced it...and I stay far from judgin anyone, for only God is the judge of us all.....


PEACE

Peace

Lol I'm tired...that should say..I must ask that you accept MY apology instead of "I must ask for your apology"...so pardon me for that lil mistake there...

In the old covenant, God listed numerous laws and promised to drive the Canaanites out of the land (Exodus 20-23). The people agreed to obey God, and Moses sprinkled "the blood of the covenant" on the altar and on the people, finalizing the covenant (Exodus 24:1-8). Even though the covenant had been made, Israel's relationship with God was only in its beginning stages. They had not yet demonstrated whether they would be obedient, and God had not yet given them the land he had promised.

Hebrews 8:6 tells us that Christ's covenant "is founded on better promises." It "was established," says the King James Version; the New American Standard says it "has been enacted." In other words, the new covenant has been made. The Greek verb is nomotheteo, meaning "to give or to establish a law" (Louw-Nida lexicon). It is in the perfect tense, indicating that something was done in the past and it continues to have an effect. Hebrews 8:6 clearly says that the new covenant has been legally made, and it continues in that legally ratified status.
Covenants were traditionally ratified with the blood of a sacrifice (Genesis 15:8-18; Exodus 24:1-8). The new covenant was also ratified with sacrificial blood. Hebrews 10:29 calls the blood of Jesus the "blood of the [new] covenant," which has sanctified us, that is, made us holy. His sacrificial death "has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (verse 14). The blood of the covenant has been applied to us; the new covenant has been made and ratified. Our relationship with God may have only begun, but it has begun, and it is continuing on the basis of the new covenant, made possible by the blood of Jesus Christ. He is the guarantee and the mediator of the new and better covenant (Hebrews 7:22; 8:6).

Jesus mentioned the new covenant during his last meal with his disciples. The cup of wine represented "the new covenant in my blood" (Luke 22:20). Jesus' blood, the blood of the new covenant, was poured out for us at the crucifixion, ratifying the new covenant. No one can alter or annul this covenant; it has been made.

Peace,

aight then..so then the ten commandments no longer apply right?? cuz there is now a new covenant that has the two "golden rules" right???

Aight, I'll humour you...

Let me ask you something though...does Jesus (pbuh) lie?

The ten commandments apply simply because all were based on the first two...as you call them "golden rules". It is the requirement from God to Love and worship him and him only as God and to Love thy neighbor. The other commandments were given as specifics because of the propensity of heathens to take liberties because the laws were not spelled out, so in order to quash all all doubt exact commandements were given.

And you know good and well Jesus never lied....so what trap are you trying to lay with that question?...lol

Peace,

another question...do you worship God?

As-Salaamu-Alaikum, Sister. Here is my original thread in its entirety:

WHY DO MOST CHRISTIANS EAT PORK WHEN IT IS FORBIDDEN IN THE BIBLE?

Although most Christians either don’t know - or choose to ignore it - God strictly forbids the eating of swine flesh (pork) in the Holy Bible. This Biblical injunction and references to it can be found in the following verses: Leviticus 11:7-8; Deuteronomy 14:8; Isaiah 52:11, 65:4 and 66:17; and Ezekiel 4:14 and 44:31. And if you have a Bible that contains the Apocrypha, read 2nd Maccabees chapters 6 and 7 for a tragic and horrifying account of how those who refused to eat pork were tortured and killed by the invading Gentiles (or Europeans)...

The very name of this foul animal contains an allusion to the prohibition of its flesh. In the Arabic language it is called “khinzir,” which is a combination of “khinz,” meaning “very foul,” and “ara,” meaning “I see.” So the Arabic word for swine – “khinzir” – means, “I see it very foul.” In India the swine is known by the Hindu name “su’ar,” which is pronounced like the English word “sewer”...

The flesh of swine has been proven to be injurious, not only to man’s physical health, but to his moral and spiritual health as well. The swine eats filth and takes delight in living in dirty places. It has indecent habits and possesses the evil trait of sex-perversion. Tapeworms, scrofula, cancer and encysted trichina (i.e., trichinosis) are known to be prevalent among pork-eating people. The following is a list of “foods” categorized as swine flesh and therefore forbidden by God in the Holy Bible:

bacon, baloney, barbecue ribs and/or shoulder, chitterlings (hog intestines), fatback, ham, ham hocks (hog knees), hoghead cheese, hog maws, mountain oysters (hog testicles), neckbones, pepperoni, pig ears, feet and tails, Polish sausage, pork loin, pork chops, pork skins, roast pork, salt pork, sausage and "soucemeat" (i.e., "sow's meat" )...

The flesh and blood of not only swine, but any dead animal as food is evidently injurious to man’s health. Most authorities recognize this fact on medicine. All foods that are inherently the products of violence (i.e., slaughtering and/or butchering) have a negative effect on the body’s metabolism. This is so because all flesh foods (beef, pork, lamb, fish and fowl) are the end result of murder...

Consider this profound poem re: the perils of eating pork by an anonymous author:

FROM HIS TAIL TO HIS SNOUT...

He was made a scavenger, and God says he’s unclean,
and what else can we find so filthy and mean?...

Eat not his flesh, not touch his dead carcass,
for with sin and disease it surely will mark us...

Oh yes, dear people, God’s word, it is just,
still we eat the ol’ greaser, yes eat him we must...

The dirtiest of all beasts, we will not be without,
so we eat the slop-eater, from his tail to his snout...

We would be much better off if we obeyed God’s command,
and ate the vegetables, fruits, and grains of the land.

We pray long and loud, we jump and we shout,
still we eat the ol’ greaser from his tail to his snout...

How we sing, “Oh Happy Day,” and talk of love all divine,
then like vultures we feast on the dirty ol’ swine...

We might shun many ills and diseases, no doubt,
by discarding the hog from his tail to his snout...

Yes Lady I do worship God.

I'm still waiting on the trap. (smile)

do you believe that God alone should be worshipped?


and

do you believe God lies?

Matchbook--- Yes I believe God alone should be worshipped. No God does not lie.

Is there a point to this?

do you believe God is one?

Explain...

I believe there is One God.

Do I believe God is one ...with what?

One God....as in the same definition of the number 1 right???

I'll get back to you after work...you might wanna check the other thread on Muslims believing in Jesus (pbuh)

Peace

A007,
Just wanted to say that you are in my prayers.
I pray the Holy Spirit gives you wisdom to defend the holy scriptures and the "good news" as he sees fit.

May Jehovah God bless you!

Now, Sounds like the "lady" is in fact trying to set a trap, lol.

It sounds alot like the one i ask Jehovas Witnesses and Latter Day Saints.

If the Lady is in fact trying to show that God forbids the worship of any gods but HIM, then she might ask why Christians worship Jesus. Of course Christians know that there is only one God, the unity of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, & the Father.

If this is not her trap, im curious to know what it might be :)

As for the topic, remember what Jesus said,
"It is not that which enters the mouth which defiles a man, but that which comes out of the mouth from the heart"

Also,
"For by GRACE ye are SAVED through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT of WORKS."

Peace!

Originally posted by Dihappy:
As for the topic, remember what Jesus said,

"It is not that which enters the mouth which defiles a man, but that which comes out of the mouth from the heart."I must take issue with the implied meaning of of your statement, keeping in mind that proper interpretation is the key to wisdom...

From "THE MUSTARD SEED," by Bagwan Shree Rajneesh:

"Jesus says: 'Go among the people, eat whatever they set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you.' "

This is a very significant saying. It means: Don't bother too much if the food is not pure, or if an untouchable has touched it, or if a woman who is having her period has passed by and her shadow has defiled it...

The question is not what you take in, the question is what you bring out - because what you bring out, that shows your quality; how you transform what you take in, that's the thing...

For example, a lotus is born in the mud; the mud is transformed and becomes a lotus. The lotus never says: 'I will not eat this mud, this is dirty!' No, that is not the question. If you are a lotus nothing is dirty. If you have the capacity of a lotus; if you have the transforming power - the alchemy - then you can remain and a lotus will be born...

And if you don't have the quality of a lotus, then even if you live in gold, only mud will come out of you. What goes in is not the point. The point is that if you are centered in your being, whatsoever goes in is changed, is transformed; it takes your quality of being and comes out...

So Jesus says: 'For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you.'

So remember how you transform things: if someone insults you, he feeds you with an insult...that is not going to defile you. What comes out of you now? How do you transform the insult? Does love come out of you or hate?

Jesus says: 'Remember what comes out of you, don't bother much about goes in.'

And this has to be remembered by you too, otherwise your whole approach can go wrong. If you continuously think about what goes in, then you never develop that capacity of being that can transform things. Then the whole thing becomes outward: pure food, this type of food and that type of food; nobody should touch you...you are a pure soul. Then the whole thing becomes nonsense!

The real thing is not what comes in, the real thing is to remember that you have to transform it...

What goes in you cannot defile you because whatsoever goes in, goes in the body. Nothing can go into YOU, your purity is absolute. But whatsoever comes out of you carries your quality, the fragrance of your being - that shows something. If anger comes out of you, that shows that inside you are ill; if hatred comes out of you, that shows that inside you are not whole; if love, compassion and light comes out of you, that shows that wholeness has been achieved...

"For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you."

This is indeed one of the most misinterpretated of Jesus' admonitions to his disciples...for it really means that it's not what you call me, but what I answer to...

Originally posted by Dihappy:
Also,

"For by GRACE ye are SAVED through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT of WORKS." The 9th verse of Paul's letter to the Ephesians completes the statement. Ephesians 2:8-9 reads as follows:

"For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast..."

I dont know what you mean by adding the final part. The addition of those last few words in no way negate the previous words:

"For by GRACE ye are SAVED through FAITH, and that not of yourselves..."

Get it, "Grace", saved throught "Faith", "not of yourselves".

The Apostle Paul, speaks about the gospel as:
"the gospel of the grace of God." and concerning himself he says: "By the grace of God I am what I am." (Acts 20:24/I Corinth 15:10)

The whole idea of being saved "by grace" means that there is NOTHING we can do to be saved. This is just simple biblical truth and i find it amusing that there are still some (in many religions) who use the Bible to further their own agenda using some Bible truths but omit others.

The layman can easily find the truth by searching for him/her self.

Anyway, in Romans 11:5-6 we see:
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Gal 2:16

Paul also declares:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5

"So then it (salvation) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16.

Romans 3:28
Galatians 5:4
II Timothy 1:9

Originally posted by Aqil
"For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you."

This is indeed one of the most misinterpretated of Jesus' admonitions to his disciples...for it really means that it's not what you call me, but what I answer to...

Youve got to be kidding! I think you need to do much more reading, studying and research. Your statement there shows that you dont know very much about what you are talking about.

This is not an insult, i seriously think you should study more about this subject before you make statements that may otherwise cause other less learned folks to accept what you have to say.

Jesus was NOT speaking about "insults". I think what Jesus said to his disciples is a good response to your post :)

"Are you also still without understanding?

Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Jesus was speaking about trivial traditions when the Pharasees and scribes said that the disciples did not wash their hands when eating.

I don't know what you mean by adding the final part. The addition of those last few words in no way negate the previous words:
The last few words completes the sentence. Here is another interpretation:

"You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing to brag about..." (Ephesians 2:8-9, Contemporary English Version)


"For by GRACE ye are SAVED through FAITH, and that not of yourselves..."

Get it, "Grace", saved through "Faith", "not of yourselves".
And "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb. 11:1) In other words, faith makes us sure of what we hope for, and gives us proof of what we cannot see...

You've got to be kidding!
I never "kid"...


I think you need to do much more reading, studying and research. Your statement there shows that you don't know very much about what you are talking about.
I know as much about what I am talking about as you think you know about what you are talking about...


This is not an insult, i seriously think you should study more about this subject before you make statements that may otherwise cause other less learned folks to accept what you have to say.
I don't take your frivolous admonishment as an insult. It was study and research that led me to the passage from Bagwan Shree Rajneesh's book, The Mustard Seed,which are enlightened discourses on the sayings of Jesus from an Eastern theological perspective. It's published by Harper & Row.


Jesus was NOT speaking about "insults."
How do you know this? It is YOUR interpretation...and as I mentioned earlier, proper interpretation is the key to wisdom...


I think what Jesus said to his disciples is a good response to your post :)

"Are you also still without understanding?"
And my answer would be: "Master, I am overstanding the subject at hand"...:)


Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on?
Some things do, and some things don't...witness the terrible diseases that afflict many of our people due to bad eating habits...


But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.
What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the MIND, where thought originates. The sole purpose of the heart is to pump blood...


"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Jesus was speaking about trivial traditions when the Pharasees and scribes said that the disciples did not wash their hands when eating.
I have no problem with that...

Originally posted by Aqil
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dihappy:
Jesus was NOT speaking about "insults."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you know this? It is YOUR interpretation...and as I mentioned earlier, proper interpretation is the key to wisdom...

We know this because he explains it to his disciples just a bit further down in the chapter.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dihappy:
Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some things do, and some things don't...witness the terrible diseases that afflict many of our people due to bad eating habits...

Thats fine, but those are not my words :)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dihappy:
But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the MIND, where thought originates. The sole purpose of the heart is to pump blood...

i think we can all agree that Jesus was speaking figuratively when he said that. :)

The posts on this thread is an excellent example of the ignorance and hypocrasy that runs ramped through Christanity/Christans...

....it makes me sick at my stomach to see one pick and choice want they WANT to believe from the Book that they supposedly love so much....is it arrogance or naivety that allows one to both quote AND refute words from the same page....???...

...Brothers and Sisters, please be carefull of what you preach to others...deception and murder go hand-in-hand....

Originally posted by Aqil
"For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you."

This is indeed one of the most misinterpretated of Jesus' admonitions to his disciples...for it really means that it's not what you call me, but what I answer to...

Aqil, your wisdom is very refreshing....

Originally posted by DreamFunk
The posts on this thread is an excellent example of the ignorance and hypocrasy that runs ramped through Christanity/Christans...

....it makes me sick at my stomach to see one pick and choice want they WANT to believe from the Book that they supposedly love so much....is it arrogance or naivety that allows one to both quote AND refute words from the same page....???...

...Brothers and Sisters, please be carefull of what you preach to others...deception and murder go hand-in-hand....

I guess i can take this time to actually tell Aqil that i indeed respect him/her for the civility and attempts at proving his/her points.

Discussions along the lines of this type can get very bad at times. It is good to be able to discuss such things even when agreeing to disagree.

On the other hand, posts such as the one DreamFunk just posted seem to only serve one purpose, and that is to vent anger and without any educational value whatsoever.

So, i guess ill go ahead and mirror DF's post by saying that it makes ME sick to my stomach when someone posts useless information and or opinions without even a bit of substance to back it up.

I got an idea, if it makes you sick, save yourself the discomfort and dont read it. Otherwise, save us the drama and post something useful.

I find it amazing how one interpretation can have so much more weight over another interpretation....there are sources, findings, writers in great numbers with all kinds of theories and teachings.....how do you believe what is written or said is truth? You have not seen the actual evidence with your eyes, you have not heard the actual evidence with your ears.....you base your belief or the "truth" through faith on what you have read through research and interpretation. Every word and version of the bible is written by interpretation, and one must read it completely and thoroughly, not taking scriptures out of context..... Both Aqil and Dihappy have totally different interpretations of the same scriptures using different sources, how can one say one is more correct than the other without proof? How is one proper interpretation and the other is not? Is it because one has "black" sources and the other does not? I dont just believe every radical interpretation of spirituality or scripture that comes along. And I dont totally agree with "Christianity", there's a fine line with interpretation and descerning what scriptures mean.....yes be careful with what u preach to others ...b/c wrong interpretion is the root of deception ...

Very, very true Divinity. If these discussions only server to at least stir the mind then i feel i have accomplished much.

I know that before i was born again i searched for many answers to many questions and i did my best to learn about many beliefs and religions.

It was discussions such as this that led me to do my own searching, and my search was not limited to just written scripture or information. Much learning and wisdom come from spiritual searching as well.

PS- I may be incorrect, but any referrences to any books by Bagwan Shree Rajneesh really hold no water for me.

Rajneesh inspired cultists who sprinkle intestinal pathogens(salmonella) on salad bars to keep people from voting arent exactly model citizens :)

But then maybe im not being fair, im sure most followers of Rajneesh doctinres are great people.

Dihappy, I apologize for coming off so harsh....Ive just been down this road (and those like it) MANY times and impatience and frustration has gotten to me....you tell me to not read, but it may kill me if I turn my back....my words may have been harsh and seemed useless to you, but do you also think they are untrue?

...no more because it is all there...in black and white....the creation was instructed by the Creator not to eat "unclean" animals....are we wiser than our Maker?

....the "Laws", or more accuratly, the instructions that are in the "Old" Testament are not in vain....they are instructions for mankind to live long, happy, prosperous, and healthy lives....

....if you actually look at the types of animals that are unclean for consumption, you will understand that these are not just random "laws" (none are)...

...ALL the animals are scavengers....meaning they will eat anything....they are Earth's natural garbage disposals.....they rid the Earth of death and filth....they also eat other flesh.....the "clean" animals arent flesh-eaters....the bodies of unclean amimals are different from the bodies of clean animals.....if a cow gets sick, it will die....on there other hand, an animal like a pig can harbor a disease and not think twice about it.....

....to me, trying to convience someone that eating 'pig' is OK, is almost like trying to convience someone to that eating feces is OK...Why do it, what is the point...?...yes it sounds gross because thats the extremity of the situation....Truth is extreme....

....people dont know that the "New" Testament consists of mainly letters that were witten by early 'church fathers' to various communities troughout the Roman Empire (the first being written at least 30 years after the death of Yahshua ('Jesus'))....there are many more writings, but in order to make Christanity uniquely European (the other texts didnt fit with the way the Papal wanted Christanity to go), they were not added to the canon by high Roman officals...without the knowledge of what the Bible (collection of books) really is, how can one truly understand...???....you wont know the context (geographical/historical) of what is going on in the writings....



Originally posted by divinity
Is it because one has "black" sources and the other does not? I dont just believe every radical interpretation of spirituality or scripture that comes along.

....what does "black" sources have to do with anything...???.....just because something goes against what our White massa says, doesn't mean it is a "black" lie.....must a "black" man always be dependent on the "white" mind....???....

...and there is no need to "interpret" scripture if you use the wisdom of Isaiah, rather than picking and choosing what you want...

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

...dont rely on the next Man...read (the ENTIRE book) for yourself....that is our problem, Christains do not read and understand their Bible....we are consumers and we are totally dependent on others.....our ansestors were slaves and had no choice (other than to die).....but we are no longer in chains, but it seems like our minds have forgotten how to run....

^^^^5 DreamFunk...and thank you for your most enlightening discourses. I'm reminded of the following quote by Mencius:

"To act without clear understanding; to form habits without investigation; to follow a path all one’s life not truly knowing where it leads…this is the behavior of the multitudes."

Swine (i.e., pigs) belongs to the animals that are not designated as food, and are not to be eaten. Pigs will eat almost anything that is rotten or dirty, and they are very lazy animals. It is the most covetous and greedy of all domestic animals. Among all animals, the pig is the cradle of harmful germs. Its flesh serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind; this is the very reason why it is unfit for human consumption...

Aqil and Dreamfunk--

These beliefs you have are just that...'BELIEFS'. This does not make the truths and/or facts!!

Of course the pig is carries disease. But so does almost every animal that we eat. Heard of mad cow, salmonilla (sp), hepititous(sp)? Are we to avoid all of the animals that carry disease. I know Aqil advocates vegetarianism, but there are MANY poisonous plants that we can not consume because they will make us sick or kill us....are there scriptures about them in the bible or qu'ran? There are more nitrates, pesticides, and fecis in vegetables than any pig. I only bring up these things to point out that you two should either come from a biblical standpoint or a health one, the two are not necessarilly related. Or at the very least discuss them separately. MHO

If you two are coming from a biblical point of veiw, then it is also wrong for christians to not sacrifice as the alter, wear make up, women have their heads uncovered, and a host of other things.


As for the interpretation topic.....of course it is all interpretation....it is ALL man written...and therefore subject to scrutiny and/or mistakes. Take the scripture "the love of money is the root to all evil"....this was not true then and is not true now....so...where does that leave us? Should discard the entire bible.....or are we left with trying to determine what is truth and what is not?....what is relavent then and what i relavent now?

Do either of you two have a thought on why had to come to save our souls?

Aqil and Dreamfunk--
These beliefs you have are just that...'BELIEFS'.
You call them "beliefs"...however, I call it knowledge...which is derived from the word "know." Believing something is quite different from knowing something...


This does not make them truths and/or facts!!
If all the holy books of the world do not make them truths and/or facts, then what can you show me that does? The eating of swine flesh (pork) is forbidden by God in ALL the holy books of the world - The Holy Bible, The Holy Qur’an, The Hindu Vedic Scriptures, The Bhagavad Gita and The Torah. That is truth enough for me. (The terrible swine flu virus that killed 20 million people worldwide in 1918 was caused by the slaughtering and eating of diseased swine flesh in Europe...)


Of course the pig carries disease. But so does almost every animal that we eat. Heard of mad cow, salmonella, hepatitis? Are we to avoid all of the animals that carry disease?
Of course we should...and tell me what animal doesn't carry disease...


I know Aqil advocates vegetarianism, but there are MANY poisonous plants that we cannot consume because they will make us sick or kill us...
Saying "MANY" is a bit extreme, A007...The mere fact that they are poisonous means we cannot consume them. I am referring to the plants that the vegetables we eat come from...


Are there scriptures about them in the bible or qur'an?Where do you think the knowledge came from?


There are more nitrates, pesticides and feces in vegetables than any pig.
I think you have proferred a falsehood, 007...what is the source of your information?


I only bring up these things to point out that you two should either come from a biblical standpoint or a health one, the two are not necessarily related. Or at the very least discuss them separately. MHO...
One results in the other, 007. Good health is a manifestation of obeying God's word...they cannot be discussed separately...why should they?


If you two are coming from a biblical point of veiw, then it is also wrong for christians to not sacrifice at the alter, wear makeup, women have their heads uncovered, and a host of other things.
These farcical admonitions have nothing to do with the subject at hand...


As for the interpretation topic...of course it is all interpretation...it is ALL man written...and therefore subject to scrutiny and/or mistakes.
By whom?


Take the scripture, "the love of money is the root to all evil"...this was not true then and is not true now...
That is your opinion and I disagree, for that Biblical statement will always be true. What - in your opinion - is the root of all evil?


So...where does that leave us? Should we discard the entire bible?....or are we left with trying to determine what is truth and what is not?...what is relavent then and what i relavent now?
Your a priori questions should be:

(1) "Where does that leave ME?"
(2) "Should I discard the entire Bible?"
(3) "Am I left with trying to determine what is truth and what is not?"...or what was relavant then and what is relavant now?


Do either of you two have a thought on why had to come to save our souls?"
I think you omitted the word "Jesus" or "Christ." If so your statement is simply a belief...:) My soul was here when I was born...and it is my belief that it will always be here...

Diseases Caused By Pork...

The following lists show germs and parasites that are found in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these diseases are contagious, and some have proven fatal. Pigs are a natural carrier of diseases harmful to humans, and thus making it unfit for human consumption...

Trichinella spiralis (trichina worms): This is found in pigs, dogs, horses, seals, walrus, etc. It can be killed with high temperatures; it is a very dangerous parasite to man. The infected person shows no symptoms (only what appears it be rheumatism and muscular pain), recovers very slowly. Some even die; some reduced to permanent invalids. No one is immune from this disease and there is no cure. It is interesting to point out that the trichina worm is only found in Biblically unclean meat.

Taenia solium (pork tapeworm): Contracted from undercooked pork, or touching raw pork. The worm causes malnourishment, leading to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression, melancholia, and digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enters the bloodstream then settles down in one or more of the vital organs of the body, e.g., the brain, liver, lungs or spinal cord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to the system around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea, digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).

Round worms: Examples - Ascaris, which may lead to digestive disturbances, appendicitis, jaundice.

Hook worms: Examples: Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to anemia, edema, heart failure or retarded growth (mental and physical), tuberculosis, diarrhea and typhoid.

Schitosoma japonicum: bleeding, anemia and other syndromes, If ova are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis and death may occur.

Paragomines westermaini: Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs (endenve haemoptysis).

Paciolepsis buski: Digestive disturbances leading to persistent diarrhea and generalized edema.

Clonorchis sinensis: chlonorchiasis - obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.

Metastrongylus apri: Causes bronchitis and abscess of the lungs.

Giganthorinchus gigas: Causes anemia and digestive disorders.

Balatitidium coli: Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.

These are some of the parasites and diseases found in pork and the skin of pigs. There is still no means of killing these parasites, in the tissues, nor has anyone found a method of expelling them, or even producing any specific treatment for the diseases...

Pork contains more fat than other meat. Therefore, people who eat pork are generally more obese than others; their cholesterol level is higher in their blood, making them more prone to obesity, arteriosclerosis, cardiovascular disease and sudden death. The U.S. Surgeon General is now giving top priority to the problem of obesity...

A professor at the University of Missouri-Columbia estimates that there are as many as 250,000 deaths in the U.S. annually that are caused by what he calls "inactivity-related diseases." That translates into a more serious crisis than a lifetime of smoking or problem drinking. It is now known that obese people have far more health problems than daily smokers or heavy drinkers have...

It is no wonder that America is sick, and is presently #21 on the global life-expectancy list...at 75 years of age...

You call them "beliefs"...however, I call it knowledge...which is derived from the word "know." Believing something is quite different from knowing something...

this is exactly my point....you think and/or believe you KNOW something....but the fact is...you KNOW very little.....you, me, and every other man or woman call things that we "believe" things that we 'know' but they are only beliefs and you refuse to come to terms with that so I will not belabor it anymore because it is clear to me that your mind is made up and any new information or thought will not serve any purpose.

If all the holy books of the world do not make them truths and/or facts, then what can you show me that does?

I can't prove or show you anything thats why its just a beleif....and holy books do not prove or show anything except that many religious people BELIEVE the same thing....if this is your source of 'truth' then you have proven my point that it simply a belief.

Of course we should...and tell me what animal doesn't carry disease...

Well if we should avoid all animals...why doesn't it say this in the scriptures? The scriptures merely says stay away from scavengers.(basically). I can't tell you ANY animal that doesn't carry disease...but that's my point....ALL OF THEM DO!!! So why have you singled out swine?

Where do you think the knowledge came from?

If knowledge of which plants were/are bad for us comes from scriptures....please point them out. And if there aren't any (which i suspect there are not) Why didn't God cover ALL of the things that we should not eat?

One results in the other, 007. Good health is a manifestation of obeying God's word...they cannot be discussed separately...why should they?

If this was the case then there would be NO healthy atheists and/or christians who eat pork...right?

By whom?

By anyone who reads them!!!!That is your opinion and I disagree, for that Biblical statement will always be true. What - in your opinion - is the root of all evil?

Money (or the love of) is not and never was the root to all evil!!!! So if this statement that is untrue does that mean that the bible was NOT divinly inspired? Anyway...tell me how a student in colorado shooting up a school has anything to do with money. (but isn't it evil)? Tell me how Ted Bundy cutting off heads and eating people has anything to do with money...(but isn't it evil)?
For that matter tell me what the first murder (cain of abel) had to do with money....(but wasn't it evil)? I won't get into what i believe is the root of all evil because it is another subject entirely. If you would like to post a separte thread for this discussion I will be glad to debate it with you and others.

I think you omited the word "Jesus" or "Christ." If so your statement is simply a belief... My soul was here when I was born...and it is my belief that it will always be here...

I did omit 'Christ' :lol:. But my statement had very little to do with the question of soul saving but was merely asking why 'Christ' was here. So if you have a thought on that please answer the question.

peace and love

Originally posted by A007
Of course the pig is carries disease. But so does almost every animal that we eat. Heard of mad cow, salmonilla (sp), hepititous(sp)? Are we to avoid all of the animals that carry disease.
.....you are justifing negativity with more negativity, wrong with more wrong....obviously you see it as a problem, so why justify it...????...

...MCD (Mad Cows Disease) is a result of cows eating other cows....it is the result of Man's disobediance to Scriptual instruction/Wisdom....it is what would have been called a curse in 'Biblical' times.....cows are not to eat flesh, it is unnatural....and what is unnatural goes against nature/the instructions of our Creator....and negative consequences are the result of going against the natural will of the Almighty...



Originally posted by A007
I know Aqil advocates vegetarianism, but there are MANY poisonous plants that we can not consume because they will make us sick or kill us....are there scriptures about them in the bible or qu'ran?
Genesis 1:29
"I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."

Mans natural food is fruit...we can see this, for one, by looking at our teeth and digestive system....secondly, in order for us to eat flesh, we must cook it first....why do you think this is...???...it is because our digestive system is not made to handle raw flesh consumption....

....Man began eating flesh after the flood, what also coincided with this is that Man's lifespan was substantially shorted (climate change may have also been a factor)....we went from living hundreds of years, to living no more than around 120 years...



Originally posted by A007
There are more nitrates, pesticides, and fecis in vegetables than any pig.
.....again, you are are tryign to justify bad by more bad...yes, there are pesticides in our food, but that is only because we allow them to be there.....we put our trust in others to supply our food with no questions asked...and these others have a business to run, money money money....

.....our vegetables are bastardized and weak, and for this reason is why pesticides are needed...."pests" are like vultures, they attack the weak and dead....just like the pig, they are Earths natural garbage disposals.....they rid the Earth of waste, sickness, and death....we are not to eat them....you not only eat the animal, but you also eat the essence of that animal....and as the Wisdom of the Ancients say, you are what you eat.....

....why are our vegetables poor, its because of our disobedience to nature/the instructions of our Creator....

Leviticus 25
3 - Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;
4 - But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the Lord: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

.....the Earth, like man, must have rest....the mass farming techniques and mass production of fruits/vegetables in America do not allow the Earth to "heal", and sick soil can do nothing but produce sick plants....



Originally posted by A007
I only bring up these things to point out that you two should either come from a biblical standpoint or a health one, the two are not necessarilly related. Or at the very least discuss them separately.

....they are very related, why wouldnt they be...???...do you think the 'Bible' is about vanity....????...is the 'Bible' just about useless "old and burdensome laws"...???....like I have said before, 'Biblical' words are instructions for mankind to live long, happy, prosperous, and healthy lives....dont you agree??....if so, then you should see why they are related, because Scripture was given not in vain....there is a reason for the seasons....only a PURELY ritualistic religion has nothing to do with health/LIFE.....is your religion purely ritualistic...???.....



Originally posted by A007
If you two are coming from a biblical point of veiw, then it is also wrong for christians to not sacrifice as the alter, wear make up, women have their heads uncovered, and a host of other things.
....biblical point of view...???.....isent that what this is all about...???....again, negative with more negaitve.....if you think we are to do these things, why not do them....??...

....first off Christians have never sacrificed anything....and after reading and studying what 'Jesus' studied, you would know that sacrafices were to only take place at the Temple in Jersusalem, which no longer exists....what that means is that particular covenant has been broken....also, the practice was started for some interesting reasons.....but it is all in our Bibles.....



Originally posted by A007
or are we left with trying to determine what is truth and what is not?....what is relavent then and what i relavent now
....we are trying to run before we crawl....read the Bible with an open heart and mind....it is all there....once you get out of the grasp of traditional Chritianity, you will also get out of confusion.....also, find out where your Bible comes from, that too is VERY important.....



Originally posted by A007
Do either of you two have a thought on why [Jesus] had to come to save our souls?


...save our souls???.....I dont understand this, neither do any Christians I have talked to.....yet, this, and "pay your tithes" are the only thing things that are stressed in todays Church's, and these are the only things most Christains can "recite" about their religion....

....to understand the saving of the soul, you must first know what 'Jesus' was.....

...'Jesus' was an example of how we should live our lives was he not....??...did Jesus eat 'unclean' foods....???....did his apostles....???....they did only if they were not who they said they were.....so why do we try to convince others that its OK....???....even if you do have a "pork-tooth" or whatnot, if you believe that Jesus was an example for the world, please dont try to convince anyone to go against The Example....if you "cant do without it", so be it, that is on you, but if you believe that Jesus was The Example, please dont try to bring the Soul of anyone else down....misery does love company, but if you want to go against The Example, for the sake of others, please be lonesome....




....but all and all, everything that I say and believe comes straight from the Bible....I take it for what it is and I will call myself a hypocrate before I try to twist it to my own desires....and a hypocrate I am :(.....;).....:(.....but anyway, our main problem is that we know nothing about our religion.....we disrespectfully and rebelliously refer to the "ONLY" writings that 'Jesus' knew of and quoted from as "Old", as to if nullify them or somthing.....by who's authority were they to be labeled as "Old", and why do we disrespect 'Jesus' by calling them "Old"...???....because since these were the ONLY writings that 'Jesus' knew of and quoted from, to denouce them is to denounce 'Jesus'.....(think about that one)....

....we are fearful of the "Old" Testement because we are ignorant of it.....ignorance brings fear.....we are scared of the "Old" because we dont know it.....we are afraid that if we read/believe the "Old" and we dont 'sacrifice animals' that we are gonna "burn in hell".....we must get rid of that ideology or we will never grow as a people......

....there are worlds of Wisdom in the "Old".....read it with a open mind and heart , and you too will see its beauty.....it is nothing to be fearful off....

.....in closing, I just want to add that the most liberating feeling there is, is when you can openly accept any Truth that you feel is releaved to you without any indescision.....(indecision meaning the inner-struggle of excepting change....content is a form of addiction....make sure your addictions are of prosperity).....

More on the Biblical perspective of eating pork:

Doesn't it seem strange that all the animals on the planet have a specific diet that they feed according to? Birds eat seeds, cats and dogs eat other animals, cows eat grass, etc. Only human beings think that they can eat everything. It just does not seem natural; Why would God create all the creatures on earth with a specific diet for their health and well-being, and leave man without a human diet? Answer: HE DIDN’T!

All types of animals are clean to be eaten - whether those living on land or in the water - except those specifically forbidden in God's Law which are revealed as being not suitable or good for food. So in fact, swine flesh is not “food” at all!

Swine belongs to the animals that are not designated as food, and are not to be eaten. Pigs will eat almost anything that is rotten or dirty, and they are very lazy animals. It is the most covetous and greedy of all domestic animals. Among all animals, the pig is the cradle of harmful germs. Its flesh serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind; this is the very reason why it is unfit for human consumption.

The Old Testament

The first five books of the Bible (i.e., the Pentateuch) are known as the Law. Within this law there are three divisions; moral, health and sacrificial or ceremonial law. Under the new covenant or agreement between God and His people, true Christians keep the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments and all of God’s health laws. Man's health and well-being is protected by keeping God’s moral and health laws. Christians are no longer under the sacrificial or ceremonial law which was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ, thus they are no longer under the penalty of the law...which is death (Galatians).

The true church of God believes in the Old Testament. Adherents of other religions alleged that the New Testament superseded the health laws. This unfounded argumentation is without merit. No one can specifically point out where Jesus lifted the prohibition of parasite-infested swine. On the contrary, he upheld it and declared:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus was obviously referring to the existing Law of God, in which the Law prohibiting pig as an article of food is part of. (See Leviticus 11:7-8.)

"Concerning all the animals which divide the hoof, but do not make a split hoof, or which do not chew cud, they are unclean to you: whoever touches them becomes unclean." (Leviticus 11:26) In addition, the book of Isaiah says:

"Who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places who eat swine's flesh and broth of abominable things is in their vessels...these are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day." (Isaiah 65:4, 5)

The New Testament

Despite the Biblical injunction prohibiting pork as food, still people of other religious persuasions insist on finding ways and reasons to justify their consumption of prohibited animals, arguing that said Biblical prohibition was already superseded in the New Testament...when in fact, no one can specifically point out where Jesus lifted the prohibition. The fact is, we will find in Mark 5:1-20 that Jesus permitted the foul spirits (evil spirits) possessing a man to enter into a herd of swine, since the flesh of swine was unlawful for the Jews to eat, and since it is considered unclean.

The only provision in the New Testament alluded to their argument is in Act 10:10-16. Without reading the whole context, one would be inclined to interpret it to mean that God abolished His previous command found in Deuteronomy 14:3-8.

The vision of Peter in Acts 10:10-16 is alleged to supersede Deuteronomy 14:3-8. However, nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that Peter actually ate the unclean animals he saw in his vision. To the contrary, 25 years after the ascension of Jesus, Peter proclaims; "I have never eaten anything common or unclean.'' The correct evaluation of this vision is revealed to us in Acts 10:28, "God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

Acts 10:28 therefore carries an allegorical connotation, referring explicitly to the Gentile nations or non-Israeli people that God is calling. Peter was told not to call the Gentiles "common" and "unclean" because God's mercy and forgiveness also extends to the non-Jew, and life eternal in the kingdom of God also awaits the repentant Gentile.

The Millennium

The book of Isaiah, ch. 66:1-24, is a prophecy of the new Heavens and the new Earth...a time after Jesus returns to rule all nations and set up his kingdom on Earth. Within that context God still condemns eating the flesh of pigs, reptiles, and rats:

"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together says the LORD. " (Isaiah 67:17)

It is ridiculous to think that God changed His good health laws in the New Testament, and will start them up again during the Millennium. The prohibition on the eating of unclean animals (which are proven detrimental to good health) was not abrogated during New Testament times. God will punish the unrepentant transgressors in the lake of fire.

In conclusion

You are what you eat! Your body is called the "temple of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 6:19), thus it is your duty not to abuse or harm God's temple in any way. We have been, “...bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's” (6:20). Our bodies are no longer ours to abuse, but rather God’s...to be cared for the way He instructs us. We should be mindful of Him in all things...including right eating.

The pig belongs to the animals that are not designated as food, and are not to be eaten. Pigs will eat almost anything that is rotten or dirty, and they are very lazy animals. It is the most covetous and greedy of all domestic animals. Among all animals, the pig is the cradle of harmful germs. Its flesh serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind; this is the very reason why it is unfit for human consumption...