We all know the numbers of single parent households, headed by black women, But are some sistahs deciding to have children without requiring a ring? Share your thoughts

I read an article in Ebony about a woman doing just that. She was single, in her 40s, and decided to adopt a child.

With an increasing number of black women remaining single, I do think more of them will consider alternative ways of having a kid, whether it's artificial insemination or adoption. In fact, I had a cousin talk about that, but she didn't need to do it because she got married. :)

Hell yes, anytime a woman is not married and has a child, she planned it. There are no accidental births. You know if you're using protection, you know if you're pregnant and you know you have options. So yes, they are ALL planned. Man, you don't know how many times I heard "If I'm not married by 30 or 40, I'm going to get artificially inseminated and raise the baby myself" or "I don't need a man to have a baby, I can get someone to get me pregnant". Women like to say that when their in their "I Hate Black Men" mode.

I read an article in Ebony about a woman doing just that. She was single, in her 40s, and decided to adopt a child.

With an increasing number of black women remaining single, I do think more of them will consider alternative ways of having a kid, whether it's artificial insemination or adoption. In fact, I had a cousin talk about that, but she didn't need to do it because she got married. :)


I heard about this story as well, but I was refering to women that are giving birth, not the one's that are adopting

I don't believe all single mothers plan on having children without the benefit of marriage (or the involvement of a father); however, I do know for a fact that many sistas do make the choice to have children by themselves. I know this, because I have talked to a good number of women over the years that decided to do this. In my mind that decision is both short sighted and selfish. It puts the desires of the mother above the needs of the child. Having a child is the biggest commitment & the most important decision a person can ever make in life. It should not be done impulsively or taken lightly. Children deserve to be born into a situation that is beneficial to their wellbeing...one that gives them the greatest possible chance at success in life. This is best done when both the mother & father are involved in a child's life (despite an increasing belief to the contrary). It is also best done when the parents are financially able to provide for that child. A woman that decides to have a child without wanting a man to be involved in his/her upbringing is robbing that child of their natural right to have a father in their life!

If a man is not worthy of being a woman's husband, he is not worthy of being the father of her child. Indeed having a child is a bigger commitment than marriage! A man and a woman can get divorced, and forget about each other. However a child links two people together for life! I really wish more people in our community (men & women) would realize this. Going back to this topic. The women who I knew that got pregnant on purpose with a man that they didn't want to raise the child, used superficial reasons to pick the father (usually based on their physical appearance). When I asked these women why they didn't want to marry these men they would usually pick out some psychological flaw: He was lazy, violent, unfaithful, etc. I would alway point out that children don't just inherit physical characteristics, they inherit mental characteristics as well. A child can come out looking just like Momma, and be bi-polar just like Dad. That would always fly over their heads! Unfortunately I was not able to talk the ladies that I personally knew out of doing this, but I encourage women that are considering this currently to think more about the mental welfare (not just financial) of their future children before decided to go alone.

I don't believe all single mothers plan on having children without the benefit of marriage (or the involvement of a father); however, I do know for a fact that many sistas do make the choice to have children by themselves. I know this, because I have talked to a good number of women over the years that decided to do this. In my mind that decision is both short sighted and selfish. It puts the desires of the mother above the needs of the child. Having a child is the biggest commitment & the most important decision a person can ever make in life. It should not be done impulsively or taken lightly. Children deserve to be born into a situation that is beneficial to their wellbeing...one that gives them the greatest possible chance at success in life. This is best done when both the mother & father are involved in a child's life (despite an increasing belief to the contrary). It is also best done when the parents are financially able to provide for that child. A woman that decides to have a child without wanting a man to be involved in his/her upbringing is robbing that child of their natural right to have a father in their life!

If a man is not worthy of being a woman's husband, he is not worthy of being the father of her child. Indeed having a child is a bigger commitment than marriage! A man and a woman can get divorced, and forget about each other. However a child links two people together for life! I really wish more people in our community (men & women) would realize this. Going back to this topic. The women who I knew that got pregnant on purpose with a man that they didn't want to raise the child, used superficial reasons to pick the father (usually based on their physical appearance). When I asked these women why they didn't want to marry these men they would usually pick out some psychological flaw: He was lazy, violent, unfaithful, etc. I would alway point out that children don't just inherit physical characteristics, they inherit mental characteristics as well. A child can come out looking just like Momma, and be bi-polar just like Dad. That would always fly over their heads! Unfortunately I was not able to talk the ladies that I personally knew out of doing this, but I encourage women that are considering this currently to think more about the mental welfare (not just financial) of their future children before decided to go alone.


I agree. Having a child by having purposely having sex with any old body is DANGEROUS and selfish. If you are a single mother planning on raising a child alone, at least do it responsibly through artificial insemination or adoption.

Speaking of which, Pan, do you have a different opinion towards single women who have kids in a more responsible manner? Is it not having a potential father figure that bothers you or the method in which some of these women have babies?

I agree. Having a child by having purposely having sex with any old body is DANGEROUS and selfish. If you are a single mother planning on raising a child alone, at least do it responsibly through artificial insemination or adoption.

For the record I have no problem with a single woman (or man) adopting a child. Although some might argue differently, adoption isn't the same as purposefully having a child without intending to have the biological father in his/her life. An adopted child is one who has been abandoned (more than likely doesn't know either biological parent), and could benefit from any loving home.

I think this is the crux. Admittedly, both parties must be responsible enough to step up to the plate, as well as being able to cope with that responsibility. But, overall, I think there is a certain balance that is gained through having two actively involved parents. Otherwise, I'd think, it wouldn't have worked out that it takes two to make a baby, eh?


Good points,

Hell yes, anytime a woman is not married and has a child, she planned it. There are no accidental births. You know if you're using protection, you know if you're pregnant and you know you have options. So yes, they are ALL planned. Man, you don't know how many times I heard "If I'm not married by 30 or 40, I'm going to get artificially inseminated and raise the baby myself" or "I don't need a man to have a baby, I can get someone to get me pregnant". Women like to say that when their in their "I Hate Black Men" mode.


There are women who use protection and still get pregnant. Afterwards there are three choices, keep the baby, put it up for adoption, or abort it. Neither one of my pregnancies were planned and my kids have the same father although they are 7 yrs. apart-14 and 7. I don't use an "I Hat Black Men" mode, but I used to despise the fact that their daddy would rather go drink and smoke the little money he did have when he knew he had two daughters and things like Christmas, Easter, birthdays, ect. would come up. It wasn't so much about the money. It's the fact that they love him so much, rarely get to see him because he's out running the streets, and you would think he'd love them enough to consider they need and want things. My husband does more for them and takes more of an interest in them than he does. I don't get child support and haven't asked for it. I provide very well for them on my own, but I never planned for it to happen that way. I'm 29 and I didn't want kids until I was in my 30's. Sometimes things don't go as planned. I stil don't want another child until I after I get my bachelor's degree. I'm using three different methods of protection so if I get pregnant before I'm ready, I'll be having another child but it definately won't be planned.

There are women who use protection and still get pregnant. Afterwards there are three choices, keep the baby, put it up for adoption, or abort it. Neither one of my pregnancies were planned and my kids have the same father although they are 7 yrs. apart-14 and 7. I don't use an "I Hat Black Men" mode, but I used to despise the fact that their daddy would rather go drink and smoke the little money he did have when he knew he had two daughters and things like Christmas, Easter, birthdays, ect. would come up. It wasn't so much about the money. It's the fact that they love him so much, rarely get to see him because he's out running the streets, and you would think he'd love them enough to consider they need and want things. My husband does more for them and takes more of an interest in them than he does. I don't get child support and haven't asked for it. I provide very well for them on my own, but I never planned for it to happen that way. I'm 29 and I didn't want kids until I was in my 30's. Sometimes things don't go as planned. I stil don't want another child until I after I get my bachelor's degree. I'm using three different methods of protection so if I get pregnant before I'm ready, I'll be having another child but it definately won't be planned.


I understand what you're saying and I agree that some women get pregnant when it wasn't planned, but no woman has a baby without planning to have it. If you don't plan to have a baby, you won't. If you're pregnant and you don't plan to have an abortion...then you're planning to have a baby. It's not a knock on women at all, but there is no such thing as an unplanned birth. There is a such thing as an unplanned pregnancy.

That sucks that you're children's father is such a loser. Luckily for the children, you were the one that ended up with them. At least their future will be bright.

I don't believe all single mothers plan on having children without the benefit of marriage (or the involvement of a father); however, I do know for a fact that many sistas do make the choice to have children by themselves. I know this, because I have talked to a good number of women over the years that decided to do this. In my mind that decision is both short sighted and selfish. It puts the desires of the mother above the needs of the child. Having a child is the biggest commitment & the most important decision a person can ever make in life. It should not be done impulsively or taken lightly. Children deserve to be born into a situation that is beneficial to their wellbeing...one that gives them the greatest possible chance at success in life. This is best done when both the mother & father are involved in a child's life (despite an increasing belief to the contrary). It is also best done when the parents are financially able to provide for that child. A woman that decides to have a child without wanting a man to be involved in his/her upbringing is robbing that child of their natural right to have a father in their life!

If a man is not worthy of being a woman's husband, he is not worthy of being the father of her child. Indeed having a child is a bigger commitment than marriage! A man and a woman can get divorced, and forget about each other. However a child links two people together for life! I really wish more people in our community (men & women) would realize this. Going back to this topic. The women who I knew that got pregnant on purpose with a man that they didn't want to raise the child, used superficial reasons to pick the father (usually based on their physical appearance). When I asked these women why they didn't want to marry these men they would usually pick out some psychological flaw: He was lazy, violent, unfaithful, etc. I would alway point out that children don't just inherit physical characteristics, they inherit mental characteristics as well. A child can come out looking just like Momma, and be bi-polar just like Dad. That would always fly over their heads! Unfortunately I was not able to talk the ladies that I personally knew out of doing this, but I encourage women that are considering this currently to think more about the mental welfare (not just financial) of their future children before decided to go alone.
How simply beautiful to know that there are those out there thinking this way. Just yesterday the cableman was telling me that he had to go home to not one but 2 crazy babies mamas. He said it to me as if I was to have sympathy, but my question to him was whether or not they just became overnight and reminded him that he made a choice in having babies with these women. I also get the other side from the women.

You're words were right on! A couple of co-workers were talking yesterday about whether or not they wanted more children (both single women with 1 child each) and who they would have these children with. They looked at me crazy when I stated that I wanted to be married first & then if I get pregnant, so be it because I would do nothing to stop it from happening.

I also do feel differently about adoption & plan to adopt whether married or not within the next few years.

I don't get child support and haven't asked for it. I provide very well for them on my own, but I never planned for it to happen that way.

Sister Ledda ... Hello and Welcome ... :wave:

I never asked for child support either, had 2 babies, and took care of them very well.

But Sister ... i can't help but think how much better things could have been for them, if i had sought and received what was due to them. I understand and honor your desire not to get anything for yourself, but it's wrong not to get anything for the children. They deserve no less. That is theirs. They are not able to make the decision, and they are depending on you to look out for their best interest ... which would be to get all that belongs to them. Put it in an account, let it help them buy their first home, pay for their education, get a new car ... whatever they want!

Of course this is all hindsight for me.

Thank you for joining us and please make yourself at home ... because you are!

:heart:

Destee

Sister Ledda ... Hello and Welcome ... :wave:

I never asked for child support either, had 2 babies, and took care of them very well.

But Sister ... i can't help but think how much better things could have been for them, if i had sought and received what was due to them. I understand and honor your desire not to get anything for yourself, but it's wrong not to get anything for the children. They deserve no less. That is theirs. They are not able to make the decision, and they are depending on you to look out for their best interest ... which would be to get all that belongs to them. Put it in an account, let it help them buy their first home, pay for their education, get a new car ... whatever they want!

Of course this is all hindsight for me.

Thank you for joining us and please make yourself at home ... because you are!

:heart:

Destee
Very good advice, even if it is hindsight. We've all got something that we would have done differently had we known what we do know. I work with a lot of single moms in a volunteer capacity and try to tell them the same things. The last woman was in her mid-20s with 5 children & all she could think about was that she didn't want the men to think that she needed them for anything.

Hell yes, anytime a woman is not married and has a child, she planned it.

The above is not true.

:heart:

Destee

Sister Ledda ... Hello and Welcome ... :wave:

I never asked for child support either, had 2 babies, and took care of them very well.

But Sister ... i can't help but think how much better things could have been for them, if i had sought and received what was due to them. I understand and honor your desire not to get anything for yourself, but it's wrong not to get anything for the children. They deserve no less. That is theirs. They are not able to make the decision, and they are depending on you to look out for their best interest ... which would be to get all that belongs to them. Put it in an account, let it help them buy their first home, pay for their education, get a new car ... whatever they want!

Of course this is all hindsight for me.

Thank you for joining us and please make yourself at home ... because you are!

:heart:

Destee


Thank you, Sister Destee. I hadn't looked at it from that point of view. I suppose on top of not going after him for child support I also have taken into consideration that if he truly loved them he'd do it on his own. Even if it were only $50 a month. He makes very little money and it's true the money that he squanders away could be going to them. I think more about it. Thanks again.

if he truly loved them he'd do it on his own

where a person spends their money ... they'll spend their time

even if "forced" to do it ... the bond is built ... relationship established ...

so when child support is no longer viable, communications between Father and Child continue

it could be a win - win situation

i would suggest talking to him about it first ... the child support i mean ...

give him a chance to do better on his own ... without having to bring White folk in your stuff ...

but if he aint even gonna try to do nuth'n ... well ... you gotta think of the babies.

:heart:

Destee

How simply beautiful to know that there are those out there thinking this way. Just yesterday the cableman was telling me that he had to go home to not one but 2 crazy babies mamas. He said it to me as if I was to have sympathy, but my question to him was whether or not they just became overnight and reminded him that he made a choice in having babies with these women. I also get the other side from the women.
You're words were right on! A couple of co-workers were talking yesterday about whether or not they wanted more children (both single women with 1 child each) and who they would have these children with. They looked at me crazy when I stated that I wanted to be married first & then if I get pregnant, so be it because I would do nothing to stop it from happening.
I also do feel differently about adoption & plan to adopt whether married or not within the next few years.

Sister Zora I would not have had sympathy for the cableman either, he was directly responsible for his situation. I also used to get crazy looks from people who asked me why I was not a father yet, when I was in my mid-20s? I was also waiting to meet the right woman, and get married first. Imagine a black man who felt that way? People (black people) used to look at me like I had 2 heads, because I cared enough about my future children not to have them with a woman I didn't love. That I considered their future enough to not bring them into the world, unless the conditions were right.

I did not have my 1st child (who was born to my wife) until I was 28 years old. My wife did not have her 1st child until she was 28 years old. Neither one of us were virgins when we met each other. We both were sexually active with each other while we dated, yet my wife did not get pregnant with our daughter until 1 year into our marriage. My wife got pregnant when she stopped taking birth control pills! Birth control kept her from getting pregnant all those years...they kept me from getting other women pregnant for all those years. This is why I have a hard time believing that all these children in the African American community (according to some reports 70% are born out of wedlock), are being born because of faulty birth control.

I agree with brother Kente417Mojo (we've always agreed on this point)...women don't "accidently" get pregnant! They get pregnant because either they wanted to, or because they didn't take the necessary precautions. I can understand an ignorant teenager taking risk; however, a woman in her 20s...30s...40s has no excuse. Yes condoms do break, but birth control pills don't. A woman who truly doesn't want to get pregnant would be using both, or abstaining from sex all together. Afterall condoms are used more for disease prevention than pregnancy prevention.

For the sake of our children we as a people need to perform greater caution with our sexual practices. We also need to use more discrimination about who we sleep with. Growing up my mother never told me to use birth control. She never said to me, "Son don't be bringing home no babies". What she did tell me was that sex creates children, and not to sleep with a woman I didn't want to have children with. She also told me that: "The greatest gift a Man can give his children is to love their Mother". Those words of advise kept me in check...it made me very selective about who I decided to sleep with over the years. It made me not think that it was cute to have a child with a women who I was sexually attracted to, but couldn't stand otherwise. Indeed I can think of no worse nightmare than to have to deal with a woman I don't like for the rest of my life. Ultimately it made me not let my guard down, until I found a woman I wanted to marry. Now I can tell my daughter & my son who is on the way....I Love Your Mother!

The above is not true.

:heart:

Destee

Yes it is. Unless there has ever been a case where a woman was pregnant and her body never changed, then 9 months later the baby fell out while she was walking down the street. :laugh: If a woman is not married and get's pregnant...maybe she didn't plan to get pregnant. A woman that isn't married but has a baby, planned it because it could've been prevented.

I'm not saying that all single mothers planned to be single mothers, but women that birth babies out of wedlock...planned to do so. A woman that doesn't plan to uses condoms, takes pills or other birth control options, and if worse comes to worse...has an abortion. A woman doesn't go through 9 months of pregnancy without knowing and the baby doesn't just fall out of her. If it happens like that....my momma lied to me.

Sister Zora I would not have had sympathy for the cableman either, he was directly responsible for his situation. I also used to get crazy looks from people who asked me why I was not a father yet, when I was in my mid-20s? I was also waiting to meet the right woman, and get married first. Imagine a black man who felt that way? People (black people) used to look at me like I had 2 heads, because I cared enough about my future children not to have them with a woman I didn't love. That I considered their future enough to not bring them into the world, unless the conditions were right.

I did not have my 1st child (who was born to my wife) until I was 28 years old. My wife did not have her 1st child until she was 28 years old. Neither one of us were virgins when we met each other. We both were sexually active with each other while we dated, yet my wife did not get pregnant with our daughter until 1 year into our marriage. My wife got pregnant when she stopped taking birth control pills! Birth control kept her from getting pregnant all those years...they kept me from getting other women pregnant for all those years. This is why I have a hard time believing that all these children in the African American community (according to some reports 70% are born out of wedlock), are being born because of faulty birth control.

I agree with brother Kente417Mojo (we've always agreed on this point)...women don't "accidently" get pregnant! They get pregnant because either they wanted to, or because they didn't take the necessary precautions. I can understand an ignorant teenager taking risk; however, a woman in her 20s...30s...40s has no excuse. Yes condoms do break, but birth control pills don't. A woman who truly doesn't want to get pregnant would be using both, or abstaining from sex all together. Afterall condoms are used more for disease prevention than pregnancy prevention.


28 years old is not too old to be having kids. ln fact my husband was that age when we had our son. I wish more people would have enough sense to wait until: 1) they've found a partner they love and 2) established themselves economically before having kids!

As far as birth control, some women just don't want to take it. I was scared to take it really until after the birth of my son because of fear of weight gain... some women gain up to 60 pounds taking that stuff. And when I did try it, I lost my hair, got bad headaches, unable to lose the pregnancy weight despite eating normally, and bad heartburn. So I stopped it, and don't plan on resuming its use, but since I'm married it's not that big of a deal.

Condoms are pretty effective anyway... I know I've never gotten pregnant using them. :coffee: The downside is they do take away the pleasure, but birth control can do the same thing at least for a woman because it can decrease a her sex drive. But, then again, if you're not married you need to be using condoms anyway regardless of taking birth control.

Yes it is. Unless there has ever been a case where a woman was pregnant and her body never changed, then 9 months later the baby fell out while she was walking down the street. :laugh: If a woman is not married and get's pregnant...maybe she didn't plan to get pregnant. A woman that isn't married but has a baby, planned it because it could've been prevented.

I'm not saying that all single mothers planned to be single mothers, but women that birth babies out of wedlock...planned to do so. A woman that doesn't plan to uses condoms, takes pills or other birth control options, and if worse comes to worse...has an abortion. A woman doesn't go through 9 months of pregnancy without knowing and the baby doesn't just fall out of her. If it happens like that....my momma lied to me.

lol, I wish it could just fall out.

As far as birth control, some women just don't want to take it.

Yes that is pretty apparent with all these "accidental" pregnancies which happen in our community!

Yes that is pretty apparent with all these "accidental" pregnancies which happen in our community!


And as far as condoms..some men dont want to put condoms on either..its both ways..men if u dont want to have a baby.."wrap that pickle up"..women..tell that man to "wrap that pickle up", and get the shot..patch..pill..sponge..gel..iud..diaphragm.foa m..cream..inserts..FEMALE CONDOMS..its about responsibility and self respect.

And as far as condoms..some men dont want to put condoms on either..its both ways..men if u dont want to have a baby.."wrap that pickle up"..women..tell that man to "wrap that pickle up", and get the shot..patch..pill..sponge..gel..iud..diaphragm.foa m..cream..inserts..FEMALE CONDOMS..its about responsibility and self respect.

Yes I agree Nisa men need to wrap it up (for disease prevention if nothing else), but women should not leave pregnancy prevention up to a man's decision to wear a condom. In the end though it is all about responsibility, self respect, and concern for future children!

Yes I agree Nisa, but women should not leave pregnancy prevention up to a man's decision to wear a condom.


I agree..thats why i listed all the female methods of bc. Its a 2 way street my brother.

I agree..thats why i listed all the female methods of bc. Its a 2 way street my brother.


It may be a two way street, but it's a woman's choice to have the child or not. And far too often if she does have the child, and the father bounces, she will be stuck with an unwanted responsibility.

So ultimately, the woman has to take the larger role of responsibility when she has sex.

It may be a two way street, but it's a woman's choice to have the child or not. And far too often if she does have the child, and the father bounces, she will be stuck with an unwanted responsibility.

So ultimately, the woman has to take the larger role of responsibility when she has sex.


Thats not fair..a man needs to take responsibility too..pull out or something...if he doesnt want a child...we cant put it all on the man or the woman...its both ways

Thats not fair..a man needs to take responsibility too..pull out or something...if he doesnt want a child...we cant put it all on the man or the woman...its both ways

A man does need to take responsibility, and it may not be fair. However brother Sekhemu is saying a fundamental...a biological truth. Women get pregnant not men, they carry children, not men. Ultimately the bulk of birth control falls on them because biologically (naturally) they have the greater responsibility. As a man I took precautions to prevent getting women pregnant. But if I was a woman...I'd be on the pill, sponge, the shot, make the brother wear 2 rubbers, and still require him to pull out before he climaxes! After all, it would be me who has to go through 9 months of misery, not him!

A man does need to take responsibility, and it may not be fair. However brother Sekhemu is saying a fundamental...a biological truth. Women get pregnant not men, they carry children, not men. Ultimately the bulk of birth control falls on them because biologically (naturally) they have the greater responsibility. As a man I took precautions to prevent getting women pregnant. But if I was a woman...I'd be on the pill, sponge, the shot, make the brother wear 2 rubbers, and still require him to pull out before he climaxes! After all, it would be me who has to go through 9 months of misery, not him!


I understand that..but men take control in who they fertilize as well..yes we carry the child and all..we dont get pregnant by ourselves.

Yes I agree Nisa men need to wrap it up (for disease prevention if nothing else), but women should not leave pregnancy prevention up to a man's decision to wear a condom. In the end though it is all about responsibility, self respect, and concern for future children!

Women should demand that a man wear a condom, while men should have enough sense to put it on automatically like you would put on a seatbelt.

If you have sex without a condom but with birth control, you won't get pregnant, but you could get HIV. If you have sex with just a condom, more than likely you will prevent HIV and pregnancy. The condom is the link to preventing the contraction of a life-threatening illness, and needs to be the priority form of birth control, ESPECIALLY if (like me) birth control pills/shots causes adverse reactions to a woman's body.

A man does need to take responsibility, and it may not be fair. However brother Sekhemu is saying a fundamental...a biological truth. Women get pregnant not men, they carry children, not men. Ultimately the bulk of birth control falls on them because biologically (naturally) they have the greater responsibility. As a man I took precautions to prevent getting women pregnant. But if I was a woman...I'd be on the pill, sponge, the shot, make the brother wear 2 rubbers, and still require him to pull out before he climaxes! After all, it would be me who has to go through 9 months of misery, not him!

Both men and women who have sex without a condom outside of a monagmus relationship are making a decision that is stupid as hell.

Both men and women who have sex without a condom outside of a monagmus relationship are making a decision that is stupid as hell.


Word, but the point I was making to sistah Nisa, is that if you look around the community today, women are having children and no man around to help them raise them.

So in order to be on the safe side, our women need to cover their a$$es, because I guy will hit and quit it, and don't care if she get pregnant or not, but the woman winds up paying the higher toll as a result.

Thats not fair..a man needs to take responsibility too..pull out or something...if he doesnt want a child...we cant put it all on the man or the woman...its both ways


Sistah, we know it's not fair, but the question is what do you do to prevent it.

Word, but the point I was making to sistah Nisa, is that if you look around the community today, women are having children and no man around to help them raise them.

So in order to be on the safe side, our women need to cover their a$$es, because I guy will hit and quit it, and don't care if she get pregnant or not, but the woman winds up paying the higher toll as a result.

HIV is becoming as much of a problem in the black community as pregnancy. Birth control can't prevent that... only the condom can. Thus, women shouldn't have sex PERIOD with men who refuse to wear condoms, whether she's on birth control or not.

Meanwhile, men need to get it through their heads that they need to be sexually responsible because they could get AIDS. We do not live in an era where one gender can say, "Oh, I don't get pregnant, so I don't have to worry about it." Whether you're man or woman, gay or straight if you're not comitted, meaning with a wedding ring on the finger, use the condom!

HIV is becoming as much of a problem in the black community as pregnancy. Birth control can't prevent that... only the condom can. Thus, women shouldn't have sex PERIOD with men who refuse to wear condoms, whether she's on birth control or not.

Meanwhile, men need to get it through their heads that they need to be sexually responsible because they could get AIDS. We do not live in an era where one gender can say, "Oh, I don't get pregnant, so I don't have to worry about it." Whether you're man or woman, gay or straight if you're not comitted, meaning with a wedding ring on the finger, use the condom!

Everything you say is true, but we're getting slightly off the topic. This is about women making choices, not men.

This is an outstanding topic Brother. Many of our woman I resorted to this and a vast majority of or sisters are force into single parenthood. Either parenthood without two parent male and female is a detriment to our people. A chain is made up of links, if you break the links you've broken the chain.



Peace

Everything you say is true, but we're getting slightly off the topic. This is about women making choices, not men.

That is correct, although the two issues (pregnancy prevention and STD prevention) are related, they are still separate issues. This thread is about pregnancy, and the choices women make on this issue: Women can not & should not depend on men to protect them from getting pregnant. Nothing could be more dangerous, because to a good number of men...especially casual sex partners...they can care less if a woman gets pregnant of not (they don't plan to stick around anyway). Why would a woman leave her future & that of her children, up to a man that doesn't have her best interest at heart...while he is in the mist of a moment of passion? Again this is a dangerous choice (an unrealistic expectation) which is burning millions of African American women & their children every day in this country!

I perused through the thread and I think some of the overall points that everyone is making about children out of wedlock are hard to refute.

But this subject has been nailed to death from the left, from the right, to the center.
No matter how religious, moral, ethical, principled or rational we are, God, the Creator or however you view the universal forces, has made the power of sex stronger than all of the above.

We are really in a dilemma and we are trying to fight the most powerful force in human nature. Without the sexual act, there would be no conversation to debate.

...social issues, political ideas, Amazonian-type women empowerment movements and not even Lesbianism, can remove the maternal instinct. The maternal instinct, powers the universe.

With there being an undeniable, shortage of Black men, which is more than about, just an actual body count, most fertile heterosexual women are still being driven to naturally copulate and be impregnated. This natural force operates, "by any means necessary"! This is a subconsciously innate drive...!

It's like water will attempt to seek it's own level, no matter what you try to do to impede it!

Don’t get me wrong! I’m pro condom! I’m pro all contraception, when deemed necessary!

But it is obvious, that the natural, spiritual, emotional and especially physiological needs and energy from the uninhibited biological act of sexual union cannot be replicate or replaced.

Forget what I say…just look at the world. Check the science…look at the facts.


Peace

I perused through the thread and I think some of the overall points that everyone is making about children out of wedlock are hard to refute.

But this subject has been nailed to death from the left, from the right, to the center.
No matter how religious, moral, ethical, principled or rational we are, God, the Creator or however you view the universal forces, has made the power of sex stronger than all of the above.

We are really in a dilemma and we are trying to fight the most powerful force in human nature. Without the sexual act, there would be no conversation to debate.

...social issues, political ideas, Amazonian-type women empowerment movements and not even Lesbianism, can remove the maternal instinct. The maternal instinct, powers the universe.

With there being an undeniable, shortage of Black men, which is more than about, just an actual body count, most fertile heterosexual women are still being driven to naturally copulate and be impregnated. This natural force operates, "by any means necessary"! This is a subconsciously innate drive...!

It's like water will attempt to seek it's own level, no matter what you try to do to impede it!

Don’t get me wrong! I’m pro condom! I’m pro all contraception, when deemed necessary!

But it is obvious, that the natural, spiritual, emotional and especially physiological needs and energy from the uninhibited biological act of sexual union cannot be replicate or replaced.

Forget what I say…just look at the world. Check the science…look at the facts.


Peace

And the facts say the choices women are making are not healthy for the child they give birth to.

And there is nothing you or I can do, or can say that is going to stop this! Only women, will find this solution. Only they, will control their own wombs in the end. And based on what I’ve cited in my last post…they are choosing to procreate…the rich ones, the poor ones and the husband-less ones!

Brother Sekhemu, there are places in the world (Black and Brown), where it's not about children out of wedlock, but more so destitution and poverty... The men and women are still having babies…! And the western medical establishment has been more than happy to sterilize and control the births of these people, before they are willing to assist in change or the improvement of their living conditions.

You may be able to change social and cultural conditions that will give Black men, women and children a better and more productive life as free and New Africans. But you ain’t going to stop the natural sexual act of procreation without some type of draconian and totalitarian practices or laws. And we don’t need another Taliban or Eugenics society…!

Peace my Brother

And there is nothing you or I can do, or can say that is going to stop this! Only women, will find this solution. Only they, will control their own wombs in the end. And based on what I’ve cited in my last post…they are choosing to procreate…the rich ones, the poor ones and the husband-less ones!

Brother Sekhemu, there are places in the world (Black and Brown), where it's not about children out of wedlock, but more so destitution and poverty... The men and women are still having babies…! And the western medical establishment has been more than happy to sterilize and control the births of these people, before they are willing to assist in change or the improvement of their living conditions.

You may be able to change social and cultural conditions that will give Black men, women and children a better and more productive life as free and New Africans. But you ain’t going to stop the natural sexual act of procreation without some type of draconian and totalitarian practices or laws. And we don’t need another Taliban or Eugenics society…!

Peace my Brother


Brotha Sun Ship, we all know the problems of having children out of wedlock in "developing" nations, however my comments are directed at the women living in this country, and that is not to say some women here don't have similar problems to women in developing nations.

I don't disagree with you, in fact brotha Pan and I have been saying pretty much the same thing throughout this thread, and that is, that black women ultimately make the decicions to have a child or not to have one, but they should not be suprised of the fallout if they decide to so.

They may very well have a strong biological desire toprocreate, it's obvious nobody can stop these women from making these choices, and from what I can see, no one is trying to, at least not black men, but the bottom line is. who suffers in the long run. The children. The children that are unwanted that people like you and I who will ultimately cross paths with, in one way or the other.

So let's be real here, some women are just very selfish when it comes to bringing a life into this world, they want what they want, regardless of the consequences. It's just too bad they don't care about that

If the black community is going to get past some of the serious problems it is having with the failing family structure and HIV, (a disease contracted doing the same thing you do to get pregnant), men and women are going to have to move past the biological, animalistic urges.

Condoms do take away pleasure, but even with them, you can reach sexual climax. As far as women and babies, I can't speak for other cultures, but in this one, a single woman can get pregnant safely through artificial insemination. There's no reason to be whoring around, unless she's looking for sex or erronesouly thinking her pregnancy can 'hook' some loser.

If the black community is going to get past some of the serious problems it is having with the failing family structure and HIV, (a disease contracted doing the same thing you do to get pregnant), men and women are going to have to move past the biological, animalistic urges.

Condoms do take away pleasure, but even with them, you can reach sexual climax. As far as women and babies, I can't speak for other cultures, but in this one, a single woman can get pregnant safely through artificial insemination. There's no reason to be whoring around, unless she's looking for sex or erronesouly thinking her pregnancy can 'hook' some loser.


Well said, I agree

The maternal instinct, powers the universe.

It leaves me (almost) speechless ... simply reading your words above.

Thank You Brother Sun Ship !!!! :love:

:heart:

Destee

Brother Sekhemu, I’m trying to be realistic about this…

If this was a small population of Black women or an isolated group or a recent growing phenomenon, then it would be easy to focus on certain pathologies and maybe speak to them directly.

But what’s producing fatherless and socially unhealthy children in our community are multifaceted issues.

There are a many children that where in two parent household at the time of there births and are not now, which brings up the divorce rate in our community.

If we could get every Black man and woman to marry before having children, we will still have either destitutions and poverty, or an enormous welfare state of married couples like other countries, and this will present other problems.

When we look at the various statistics over the years we could easily surmise that, over 60% of Black women across the board, will never have a chance at marriage, these women still want children and some type of semblance of family (it’s innate!).

Who among us, are going to divide the selfish Black women from the one’s who are having babies for other reasons? Based on statistics, I wouldn’t be surprised if most Black women here at Destee.com were raising children on their own or possibly had them out of wedlock. And this is happening for as many reasons as you can count babies.

Though selfishness can be applied to anything, this is about the life and survival of a people, not an act of self-sabotage.

If a mouse needs food and you put the food in a trap, its going to try to, steal and eat it or face the surety of slow death. Brother, we need not get mad at our community, because it has been set up and put in check. Somebody’s trying to checkmate our community through our children, and its not the Black mother, under any circumstance.

IMO peace,

Brother Sun Ship:cool:

Brother Sekhemu, I’m trying to be realistic about this…

If this was a small population of Black women or an isolated group or a recent growing phenomenon, then it would be easy to focus on certain pathologies and maybe speak to them directly.

But what’s producing fatherless and socially unhealthy children in our community are multifaceted issues.

There are a many children that where in two parent household at the time of there births and are not now, which brings up the divorce rate in our community.

If we could get every Black man and woman to marry before having children, we will still have either destitutions and poverty, or an enormous welfare state of married couples like other countries, and this will present other problems.

When we look at the various statistics over the years we could easily surmise that, over 60% of Black women across the board, will never have a chance at marriage, these women still want children and some type of semblance of family (it’s innate!).

Who among us, are going to divide the selfish Black women from the one’s who are having babies for other reasons? Based on statistics, I wouldn’t be surprised if most Black women here at Destee.com were raising children on their own or possibly had them out of wedlock. And this is happening for as many reasons as you can count babies.

Though selfishness can be applied to anything, this is about the life and survival of a people, not an act of self-sabotage.

If a mouse needs food and you put the food in a trap, its going to try to, steal and eat it or face the surety of slow death. Brother, we need not get mad at our community, because it has been set up and put in check. Somebody’s trying to checkmate our community through our children, and its not the Black mother, under any circumstance.

IMO peace,

Brother Sun Ship:cool:


You seem to suggest that I am blaming our women for the degenerative behaviour of our youth. Not at all. True our problems are multi-faceted and there are forces at work that are "drawing" us into a number of traps.

But there is a dynamic here that maybe you're not taking into consideration, and that is we as a people, and specifically women, are making poor choices when it comes to me. We can intellectualize all we want to about the enemy playing games with us, but the power rest in the choice of our women. You mentioned the fact that our women have tremendous power, but for one reason or another it is not being cultivated. When our women wake up and realize that they hold the trump card to our existence and well being as a race then you can believe things will never be the same.

IF you operate from the mindset that I need to have a child because my options of finding a good husband or mate are slim to non-existant, then what you do is start a ball rolling that snowballs from generation to generation. The way you think affects the psyche of a child, so that when that child grows up they have "baggage" given to them by the parent of that child starting from the womb. After all the mother is the first teacher of any child. Teach a woman to love thy self and know they self, and the healing of a nation will commence.

So to make a long story short, we can't keep making excuses, single headed parenthood, by and large, is not working. The boys that are being raised in these households need a strong and productive father or father figure, and unfortunately it seems that out of desperation too many of our women do not overstand this. So many are all too willing to have a child, all the while thinking that the absence of a man is alright. That the woman can raise a boy to be a man.

No disrespect to you Brotha Sun Ship, but in todays society, so many of our people minimize the value of having a father in the home, we have bought into the theory that the black woman doesn't need to have a man in the home to raise a child, and this is a recipe for disaster. It is true, we have been hoodwinked and bamboozled, and it's getting worst, not better

True, someone is trying to checkmate the black community, but our women have historically been more easily influenced to do the dirty work of the enemy.

Brother Sekhemu, I’m trying to be realistic about this…If this was a small population of Black women or an isolated group or a recent growing phenomenon, then it would be easy to focus on certain pathologies and maybe speak to them directly.But what’s producing fatherless and socially unhealthy children in our community are multifaceted issues. There are a many children that where in two parent household at the time of there births and are not now, which brings up the divorce rate in our community. If we could get every Black man and woman to marry before having children, we will still have either destitutions and poverty, or an enormous welfare state of married couples like other countries, and this will present other problems. When we look at the various statistics over the years we could easily surmise that, over 60% of Black women across the board, will never have a chance at marriage, these women still want children and some type of semblance of family (it’s innate!).

I agree that the reasons for the extremely high number of fatherless & socially unhealthy children are multifaceted. However I do not see how apologizing for women who make unhealthy choices, and assigning women's desire to have children (irregardless of the cirumstances of their births) works towards solving these multifaceted issues. Indeed apologizing for these women serves no more purpose than apologizing for men who have nothing better to do than drop seeds all over the town, that they have no intention of taking care of. A situation should not be ignored because it is complicated. I have pointed out on several occasions that the inexcusably high number of out of wedlock births in our community is unique amoung black people worldwide. No other black community in the world brings their children into broken homes like African Americans do. Not in Europe, not in the Caribbean, certainly not in Africa. I outright reject the notion that this is natural, that we can not do any better, so we shouldn't try. The current state of families in the African American community is unnatural. It will not be restored to its natural state, until we recognize that it is unnatural. This will not happen as long as we apologize for how things currently are. The white man does not affect my feelings towards my children. He does not control my desire to provide for them and teach them. He should not be an influence for any other black person (male or female) either!

IF you operate from the mindset that I need to have a child because my options of finding a good husband or mate are slim to non-existant, then what you do is start a ball rolling that snowballs from generation to generation. The way you think affects the psyche of a child, so that when that child grows up they have "baggage" given to them by the parent of that child starting from the womb. After all the mother is the first teacher of any child. Teach a woman to love thy self and know they self, and the healing of a nation will commence.

So to make a long story short, we can't keep making excuses, single headed parenthood, by and large, is not working. The boys that are being rased in these households need a strong and productive father or father figure, and unfortunately it seems that out of desperation too many of our women do not overstand this. So many are all too willing to have a child, all the while thinking that the absence of a man is alright. That the woman can raise a boy to be a man.

No disrespect to you Brotha Sun Ship, but in todays society, so many of our people minimize the value of having a father in the home, we have bought into the theory that the black woman doesn't need have a man in the home to raise a child, and this is a recipe for disaster. It is true, we have been hoodwinked and bamboozled, and it's getting worst, not better.

This is the plain truth!

Sun, I appreciate the compassion you're exerting in understanding women's perspective, but it's irresponsible in this day in time to have a baby in the way described in this thread. There is nothing wrong with wanting to satisfy sexual desire, nor is there anything wrong with wanting a baby, but people have got to put things into perspective. And I have to agree with Sek that having a baby like that is a bit selfish, because the woman is not thinking at all about the consequences either for herself and her baby. There have been plenty of unfortunate situations where the woman ended up getting HIV and pregnant... and even with the drugs there's still the possibility the baby could get the disease. Is this consequence worth it, to have a baby through sex rather than through artificial insemination or adoption? To me it isn't.

As far as single mothers in general, I'm not being critical of women who had babies to men they thought loved them, which I think is the more likely scenario of the black community. I'm criticizing those that are having them on purpose to men they KNOW don't love them.

However, even with the more typical scenario where the woman believes the man loves her, she still needs to be sexually cautious until the relationship has gone serious, which for most is in the bond of marriage.

As far as other countries... I don't know what to say about that. I don't think you should be barred from having kids because you're poor, so that point I agree with. But, if you are poor to the point that there is no food on the table for yourself, AND birth control is accessible to you, then you shouldn't be having a child, because it's going to be born facing the same misery and obstacles that you're facing.

To sum it all up, I don't believe that biological urge is the type of thing that just can't be conquered. A lot of the problems we are having is because of lack of education, low self-esteem, and (in the case of other cultures having this problem), cultural conditioning. If someone gets HIV through a cheating spouse, or a child's father abandons them after a failed marriage, then that's one thing. The woman did all she could to legally ensure not only she would be sexually healthy but provide a stable father figure for her child. But many of in the black community are not giving themselves the chance to get to that stage, because they're too busy doing it the wrong way.

I agree that the reasons for the extremely high number of fatherless & socially unhealthy children are multifaceted. However I do not see how apologizing for women who make unhealthy choices, and assigning women's desire to have children (irregardless of the cirumstances of their births) works towards solving these multifaceted issues. Indeed apologizing for these women serves no more purpose than apologizing for men who have nothing better to do than drop seeds all over the town, that they have no intention of taking care of. A situation should not be ignored because it is complicated. I have pointed out on several occasions that the inexcusably high number of out of wedlock births in our community is unique amoung black people worldwide. No other black community in the world brings their children into broken homes like African Americans do. Not in Europe, not in the Caribbean, certainly not in Africa. I outright reject the notion that this is natural, that we can not do any better, so we shouldn't try. The current state of families in the African American community is unnatural. It will not be restored to its natural state, until we recognize that it is unnatural. This will not happen as long as we apologize for how things currently are. The white man does not affect my feelings towards my children. He does not control my desire to provide for them and teach them. He should not be an influence for any other black person (male or female) either!


Well, there are a lot of cultures steeped in poverty that decide to bring kids into the world. Black Americans have the problem of abstenee fathers, which is horrible, but people in other cultures may have the problem of not having food on the table which is worse. Most blacks, even the so-called poor ones in the ghetto will have a hot meal.

Well, there are a lot of cultures steeped in poverty that decide to bring kids into the world. Black Americans have the problem of abstenee fathers, which is horrible, but people in other cultures may have the problem of not having food on the table which is worse. Most blacks, even the so-called poor ones in the ghetto will have a hot meal.

I'm not talking about poverty...that is another issue. I'm talking about bringing children into this world without a father to guide them. There are psychological issues (that carry on throughout life, from generation to generation) associated with that! This is what is being overlooked by almost everyone in this thread (with the exception of Sekhemu). My concern is the mental health and social stability of African American families. All the money in the world is not going to replace a child's desire for his/her father's guidance. Women who don't think so are fooling themselves. Children desire to have a father, they miss him, whether the mother wants to believe so or not. Besides...there are plenty of black families in this country wondering where they are going to get their next meal! I would argue that more poor two parent families create mentally healthy productive children, than broken homes that do the same! All a poor family needs is money! Once they obtain that the problem is solved. The same can't be said for a child that grows up feeling unloved because his/her father wasn't around when he/she needed him!

Well, there are a lot of cultures steeped in poverty that decide to bring kids into the world. Black Americans have the problem of abstenee fathers, which is horrible, but people in other cultures may have the problem of not having food on the table which is worse. Most blacks, even the so-called poor ones in the ghetto will have a hot meal.


This is very true, but you have take into consideration that most of these nations don't have the luxury of birth control.

Sun, I appreciate the compassion you're exerting in understanding women's perspective, but it's irresponsible in this day in time to have a baby in the way described in this thread. There is nothing wrong with wanting to satisfy sexual desire, nor is there anything wrong with wanting a baby, but people have got to put things into perspective. And I have to agree with Sek that having a baby like that is a bit selfish, because the woman is not thinking at all about the consequences either for herself and her baby. There have been plenty of unfortunate situations where the woman ended up getting HIV and pregnant... and even with the drugs there's still the possibility the baby could get the disease. Is this consequence worth it, to have a baby through sex rather than through artificial insemination or adoption? To me it isn't.

As far as single mothers in general, I'm not being critical of women who had babies to men they thought loved them, which I think is the more likely scenario of the black community. I'm criticizing those that are having them on purpose to men they KNOW don't love them.

However, even with the more typical scenario where the woman believes the man loves her, she still needs to be sexually cautious until the relationship has gone serious, which for most is in the bond of marriage.

As far as other countries... I don't know what to say about that. I don't think you should be barred from having kids because you're poor, so that point I agree with. But, if you are poor to the point that there is no food on the table for yourself, AND birth control is accessible to you, then you shouldn't be having a child, because it's going to be born facing the same misery and obstacles that you're facing.

To sum it all up, I don't believe that biological urge is the type of thing that just can't be conquered. A lot of the problems we are having is because of lack of education, low self-esteem, and (in the case of other cultures having this problem), cultural conditioning. If someone gets HIV through a cheating spouse, or a child's father abandons them after a failed marriage, then that's one thing. The woman did all she could to legally ensure not only she would be sexually healthy but provide a stable father figure for her child. But many of in the black community are not giving themselves the chance to get to that stage, because they're too busy doing it the wrong way.


This is an excellent disertation

This is very true, but you have take into consideration that most of these nations don't have the luxury of birth control.

I'm referring to those situations like Sun stated where birth control has been made available by Western folks. You can't do anything about it if it's not made available to you.

I'm referring to those situations like Sun stated where birth control has been made available by Western folks. You can't do anything about it if it's not made available to you.

True 'Dat :)

I'm not talking about poverty...that is another issue. I'm talking about bringing children into this world without a father to guide them. There are psychological issues (that carry on throughout life, from generation to generation) associated with that! This is what is being overlooked by almost everyone in this thread (with the exception of Sekhemu). My concern is the mental health and social stability of African American families. All the money in the world is not going to replace a child's desire for his/her father's guidance. Women who don't think so are fooling themselves. Children desire to have a father, they miss him, whether the mother wants to believe so or not. Besides...there are plenty of black families in this country wondering where they are going to get their next meal! I would argue that more poor two parent families create mentally healthy productive children, than broken homes that do the same! All a poor family needs is money! Once they obtain that the problem is solved. The same can't be said for a child that grows up feeling unloved because his/her father wasn't around when he/she needed him!


I don't think you should be bringing a child in the world if you can't provide for its needs, whether it's two-parent or not. In those situations presented, (and again, I'm referring to those that do have the option of birth control, not those that don't), the child might have two parents, but what good does that do if you're going to die of hunger? You can't be well-adjusted emotionally if your physical needs aren't met. You don't need to be a Rockefellor to have a family, but you should at least be able to provide for your child: shelter, some form of clothing, and food.

As far as the general issue of fatherhood, in relation to the thread the women are already single; there's no chance there's going to be a traditional father in her child's life. That fact has been established, so the next issue is, what's the most responsible way to bring a kid into the world as a single mom? artificial insemination, or adoption.

First of all, I’m the biggest advocate of fathers in the home…and at the same time, can relate my personal life experiences directly and indirectly concerning the successes and failures of one-parent families. I think I’m being misconstrued to bolster someone else argument or suppositions.

I’ll make this simple…when African women realized that they were being shipped into a torturous world of slavery…some threw their children overboard, some walked back into the ocean and drowned with their children, once they landed on the shores of America. Some were even known to poison their children, so as to not allow them to suffer the inhuman brutalities of forced servitude. But WE are the living evidence that torture, rape, inhumane breeding, slave markets and forced servitude, didn’t make all of our mothers make choices that may be considered justifiable or even humane, considering what conditions their children had to endure.

The old women use to talk about the herbal or crude forms of contraception and abortion that were available, even in those days. Why did Africans still multiply so abundantly, under the inhuman, brutal and genocidal conditions of slavery? (and it wasn’t just breeding for the most part.)

I could skillfully make a case, at anytime in the history of African Americans, for Black women to not sire children or for African American couples to not start families!! I could begin from the trans-Atlantic slave trade to slavery to the debilitating impoverish days of sharecropping and field work.

As far as, comparing African American out of wedlock birth rates with other diasporic Africans, whatever the statistics are that favor other African diasporians, those statistics are not reflective of the poverty, crime, child mortality or any other destitutions and genocidal conditions that are affecting Africans in Brazil, the Caribbean, Latin America or continental Africa.

Ase! (Ashe!)

No one is saying to forego the urge to have a baby. All I'm saying is if you're going to do it outside the construct of a relationship, find safer alternatives. There are a multitude of black babies screaming to be adopted. They are children already here that need homes. Isn't a woman still satisfying the maternal urge taking another child not of her womb into her home? Artificial insemination also would satisfy the maternal instinct.

Today's black woman at least in America is not in the grim situation that her foremothers were in. She has options, and there are many that are utilizing them.

There are a multitude of black babies screaming to be adopted. They are children already here that need homes. Isn't a woman still satisfying the maternal urge taking another child not of her womb into her home?

I 100% agree with this statement and the subject of adoption should be a thread in itself. There is probably a lot we could all learn from a thread concerning adoption and Black children.



Artificial insemination also would satisfy the maternal instinct.


I don’t know if this is doable for Black women of all income levels or not. But, not to attack or disrespect those who decide to go this direction, I sincerely hope this option doesn’t become the technique of choice. I believe, there is a lot of spiritual, socio-cultural and holistic needfulness, in the natural process of reproduction that is almost metaphysical. And I am not very comfortable with accepting or relying on the alternative futuristic and de-spiritualized sciences of Europeans. I have my reservations about this as a productive answer; plus I believe it negates and circumvents our search for real organic answers to our situation.

This is not only about the survival and proper propagation of Black children, but in part, it is also the survival of the natural functional and existence of the Black male or man. In the context of African cosmogony and spirituality, sex and reproduction is more than about “getting your groove on”, climaxing and having babies.


Peace

All our talk about uniting the community & improving the social-economic position of black people is futile, if we can not even people in our community to take care of their children! There is no excuse for the amount of abandoned children in the African American community. Certainly we can not deceive ourselves into thinking that every shiftless Negro that doesn't want to work or provide for his children does so because his is suffering from the psychological effects of slavery (the same for every woman that has baby after baby by this same shiftless Negro whom she knows to be a shiftless Negro). We do our people no justice by continuing to blame every negative social-economic pattern in our community on the white man & slavery (even if many of them started in slavery). Indeed we would all still be in shackles if some of our ancestors didn't decide to change their condition. Today is no different. At some point we have to take our destiny in our own hands. We have more resources & more knowledge to change our fate, than our ancestors ever did.

All our talk about uniting the community & improving the social-economic position of black people is futile, if we can not even people in our community to take care of their children! There is no excuse for the amount of abandoned children in the African American community. Certainly we can not deceive ourselves into thinking that every shiftless Negro that doesn't want to work or provide for his children does so because his is suffering from the psychological effects of slavery (the same for every woman that has baby after baby by this same shiftless Negro whom she knows to be a shiftless Negro). We do our people no justice by continuing to blame every negative social-economic pattern in our community on the white man & slavery (even if many of them started in slavery). Indeed we would all still be in shackles if some of our ancestors didn't decide to change their condition. Today is no different. At some point we have to take our destiny in our own hands. We have more resources & more knowledge to change our fate, than our ancestors ever did.


That's true. We also dishonor the heritage of our ancestors by throwing away our present opportunities through unwise choices.

The black men and women of yesteryear would die to have the familial/reproductive freedoms available to us today. We, unlike them, have the opportunity to keep our children and our spouses close to us -- we don't have to worry about them being sold away. Black women don't have to worry about having pregnancy forced upon her either because of the white man's rape, or because she's expected to breed like an animal to produce more slaves. But despite all of this, we're screwing things up because of lust, ignorance, selfishness, and low self-esteem. If only more of us today could have the attitude about family that our ancestors had then!

I want to thank all of you for participating in this thread, I've learned a great deal from all of the responses. It's a beautiful thing to agree to disagree, in a civil manner.

Thanks again, and keep the responses flowing

I’ve heard Black men and women, referred to as whores and shiftless Negroes in this thread. This is some good cut and paste…for the enemy. And I understand, we all can become very upset with what we see…and I also, have reacted out of terms, as I’ve tried to understand and articulate my concerns and the plight of my people. But, for clarity, let’s stick with the construct.

You are sort of helping my point, the so-called shiftless Negroes and whores, don’t care about the development of the Black community! Why are we focusing on those who are not focusing on Pan Africanism? And calling a person who is dysfunctional Black man a shiftless Negro, is not going to get any converts. _lol

When a group of people, who were brought to a country and conditioned to work for 400 years, and who have historically supported their families since the beginning of time, stop working and stop taking care of their families, a catalyst or phenomenon must have been inserted into their socio-cultural modality, that was different than what was there before. You cannot refute that…and this not a copout or blaming white folks for who broke in your car last week…

Like I said, who needs to make an excuse…excuse profits who what? Shiftless Negroes and whores don’t change cultural constructs and rehabilitate functional social norms, but dysfunctional Black people can change, by observing functional Black people socially prospering and developing applicable cultural practices (i.e., proper communal family life). And you cannot castigate the lifestyle practices of a Black man or woman only, without speaking of love and showing the commonalties imbued in brotherhood or sisterhood.

I always say, even when I’m at my best, “but by the grace of god, there goes I”

Normal family constructs must be developed in eyeshot of the Black community. And these families must be progressive and armored in wisdom and knowledge.

The historical greatness of a civilization is not judged by its shiftless population and its whoring females, but by those who define the cultural parameters and intrinsic values of its civility.

Unless you are going to kill off most of the so-called worthless Brother’s and sterilize most of the so-called baby-breeding Sister’s, things are going to keep moving like they are. I just hope some higher authority doesn’t judge your worthiness and decides to exercise their power to remove you…

I’ve heard Black men and women, referred to as whores and shiftless Negroes in this thread. This is some good cut and paste…for the enemy. And I understand, we all can become very upset with what we see…and I also, have reacted out of terms, as I’ve tried to understand and articulate my concerns and the plight of my people. But, for clarity, let’s stick with the construct.

You are sort of helping my point, the so-called shiftless Negroes and whores, don’t care about the development of the Black community! Why are we focusing on those who are not focusing on Pan Africanism? And calling a person who is dysfunctional Black man a shiftless Negro, is not going to get any converts. _lol

When a group of people, who were brought to a country and conditioned to work for 400 years, and who have historically supported their families since the beginning of time, stop working and stop taking care of their families, a catalyst or phenomenon must have been inserted into their socio-cultural modality, that was different than what was there before. You cannot refute that…and this not a copout or blaming white folks for who broke in your car last week…

Like I said, who needs to make an excuse…excuse profits who what? Shiftless Negroes and whores don’t change cultural constructs and rehabilitate functional social norms, but dysfunctional Black people can change, by observing functional Black people socially prospering and developing applicable cultural practices (i.e., proper communal family life). And you cannot castigate the lifestyle practices of a Black man or woman only, without speaking of love and showing the commonalties imbued in brotherhood or sisterhood.

I always say, even when I’m at my best, “but by the grace of god, there goes I”

Normal family constructs must be developed in eyeshot of the Black community. And these families must be progressive and armored in wisdom and knowledge.

The historical greatness of a civilization is not judged by its shiftless population and its whoring females, but by those who define the cultural parameters and intrinsic values of its civility.

Unless you are going to kill off most of the so-called worthless Brother’s and sterilize most of the so-called baby-breeding Sister’s, things are going to keep moving like they are. I just hope some higher authority doesn’t judge your worthiness and decides to exercise their power to remove you…


Wow. I still have my own opinions on this issue, but that was a very good response!

I’ve heard Black men and women, referred to as whores and shiftless Negroes in this thread. This is some good cut and paste…for the enemy. And I understand, we all can become very upset with what we see…and I also, have reacted out of terms, as I’ve tried to understand and articulate my concerns and the plight of my people. But, for clarity, let’s stick with the construct.

You are sort of helping my point, the so-called shiftless Negroes and whores, don’t care about the development of the Black community! Why are we focusing on those who are not focusing on Pan Africanism? And calling a person who is dysfunctional Black man a shiftless Negro, is not going to get any converts. _lol

When a group of people, who were brought to a country and conditioned to work for 400 years, and who have historically supported their families since the beginning of time, stop working and stop taking care of their families, a catalyst or phenomenon must have been inserted into their socio-cultural modality, that was different than what was there before. You cannot refute that…and this not a copout or blaming white folks for who broke in your car last week…

Like I said, who needs to make an excuse…excuse profits who what? Shiftless Negroes and whores don’t change cultural constructs and rehabilitate functional social norms, but dysfunctional Black people can change, by observing functional Black people socially prospering and developing applicable cultural practices (i.e., proper communal family life). And you cannot castigate the lifestyle practices of a Black man or woman only, without speaking of love and showing the commonalties imbued in brotherhood or sisterhood.

This would be interesting & thought provoking, if 70% of our children weren't born into broken homes...if the next generation wasn't more likely to increase that number! Indeed if the very survival of our community was not at stake, I might be convinced that maybe the change in the family structure of our community isn't that bad after all!

I noted some time ago that there is a communal acceptance of absentee fathers in our community. This is no doubt due to a psychological sickness. However I want to identify it in order to end it, not to justify it! Unfortunately mean ole Pan's harsh words might hurt some people's feelings. I don't mind though....to wake some people up, it is necessary to throw water in their face!

This would be interesting & thought provoking, if 70% of our children weren't born into broken homes...if the next generation wasn't more likely to increase that number! Indeed if the very survival of our community was not at stake, I might be convinced that maybe the change in the family structure of our community isn't that bad after all!

I noted some time ago that there is a communal acceptance of absentee fathers in our community. This is no doubt due to a psychological sickness. However I want to identify it in order to end it, not to justify it! Unfortunately mean ole Pan's harsh words might hurt some people's feelings. I don't mind though....to wake some people up, it is necessary to throw water in their face!

Well said Pan. I've said several times in this thread. That women ultimately have the power to make great change, always have and always will. This is not about scapegoating the black woman, it's about driving home the realization that she represents the mother of all creation, and her power to determine her future is limitless.

Our women are truly Goddesses, but they seem to be unaware of it.

[:referring to an excerpt from Sun Ship's previous post]

This would be interesting & thought provoking, if 70% of our children weren't born into broken homes...if the next generation wasn't more likely to increase that number! Indeed if the very survival of our community was not at stake, I might be convinced that maybe the change in the family structure of our community isn't that bad after all!

I noted some time ago that there is a communal acceptance of absentee fathers in our community. This is no doubt due to a psychological sickness. However I want to identify it in order to end it, not to justify it! Unfortunately mean ole Pan's harsh words might hurt some people's feelings. I don't mind though....to wake some people up, it is necessary to throw water in their face!

H_mmm I find this interesting…


"This would be interesting & thought provoking,..."

Outside of the frivolity we all have reduced ourselves to here, from time to time… I have always found your opinions, thought provoking and interesting, even when I animatedly disagreed with your approach or rational.

Now, I'm not offended, but I just find "even that preface" to your post, interesting...

Who do you suppose you are throwing water in the face of, Brother (?)… The shiftless Negroes and whorish women, who post here at Destee.com?

If you want to awake the shiftless Negroes (as you so eloquently call them) you need to do like Malcolm and go down to the local street corner of the Black community, (that I assume you live in) and tell those Negroes how shiftless they really are and speak to those leg-spreadin’ Ho’s they're sleepin’ with, because you’re preaching to the choir in this thread, my brother.

Like I’ve said before in other threads, I have always respected your ideas…
But with no disrespect brother…,

“I think you’re picking through my thoughts and observations, like a child picks through his food.”

Brother, I’ve seen the ones who have made mistakes, and maybe are still castigated and debased by some, show great love and have given me hope and even wisdom. And I’ve seen pillars of the community abuse their wives, disown their “outside children” and talk about all Black women like dogs (even the successful Sisters).

Like one so-called upstanding member of the community said to me behind close doors, “as far as I’m concerned they’re all Ho’s” …Let’s deal with what’s really goin’ on, Brother Pan.

It’s not just the liberal apologist or the platitudes of sociologist that have capitulated to our irresponsibility and betrayed our people, but those who fail to tell our people the truth about Black betrayal, along side white collusion; from the boardroom to the back-alley. The “Ghetto Negro”, has always been an easy target…not the sanctimonious whore-mongering Negro preachers, activist and politicians, in our community.

It’s not just the bedroom, these so-called “righteous Negroes” have defiled, but even worse, they’ve whored away our aspirations and pimped our minds, along with raising the dress hems of young and nubile black women.

I guess Jesse Jackson and Bill Cosby or even Clarence Thomas would say, “do as we say and not as we do”!

Brother Pan, the Shiftless Negro and whorish Black woman don’t need you to talk about their behavior…they already verbally insult, demean, and destroy their self-worth daily. If you want to hear someone verbally rip the emotional heart and life force out of Black man or woman…go to the Ghetto! We already think very little of ourselves.

By the way, for those who don’t know…, a lot of the upright successful brothers like those Ghetto Ho’s, …you know they’re not too quick to tell…!

Brother Panafrica, you are a good brother and I have no argument with you. But, be it good or bad…I’ll just let my posts stand on their own merits.

Ase!

Excellent points, Sun. :great: I am speechless.

You know brother Sun Ship there is such a thing as over-analysis! Certainly there are those who talk the talk, but don't walk the walk...they are not my concern (I don't even know how they worked themselves into this thread). I could live my life, and hope it serves as an example. Yet in reality, how I live my life only would effect myself & my immediate family. Indeed if I was only concerned about myself and my family, then this entire issue would not be an issue for me. With every thing you've said (that I've picked through like a child picks through their food), you still have yet to acknowledge that the current state of the African American family is abnormal! You are saying that these "shiftless Negroes" who don't take care of their children have the capability of showing great love & providing people wisdom. That they should not be viewed harshly and dismissed. I have no doubt of that; however, brother Sunship: Tell that to the children they have abandoned!! I'm sure those children are more disappointed in the father that has one thousand and one excuses why he can't be around to provide for them, than they ever will be in sanctimonious whore-mongering Negro preachers, activist and politicians! A well grounded, stable home, gives children the strength to withstand a lot of harsh realities of the world. It is this that I wish to give to the children of our community. I'm not throwing dirt on the down trodden...judging those who are less fortunate than I...or judging the Ghetto Negro! If you look back on my responses within this thread, and in similar threads on this topic. I have never once mentioned class! This goes beyond class, it is an social pattern that effects the African American community in general. It is a pattern that needs to cease within the African American community in general. This will not happen until the African American community understands & acknowledges that there is no excuse to make babies and not take care of them! I wonder how effective my sidewalk preaching will be in this regard? Who knows though, maybe the community will assume I'm one of those whore-mongering Negro preachers, activist and politicians (who secretly loves these Ghetto Hoes)! That is probably why they'll walk by and ignore me!

More good arguments.

WOW, Sun and Pan you guys made some brilliant replies. Brilliant, you too Karmashines,

Thanks

WOW, Sun and Pan you guys made some brilliant replies. Brilliant, you too Karmashines,

Thanks

WOW, Sun and Pan you guys made some brilliant replies. Brilliant, you too Karmashines,

Thanks

thanks, you too. :)

“…you still have yet to acknowledge that the current state of the African American family is abnormal!”



Yes Brother Panafrica, we are having social abnormities affecting our community…but as the Last Poets said “related to what”?

If we read this except from this article, it is definitely not “whorish Black women” creating the problems; maybe “some of our abnormalities” say we are better than everybody else!

Our situation, as I said, is multifaceted; the ills along with the successes. We can’t oversimplify this issue with generalizations and name-calling. And the group that is usually accused of making the worst decisions (young Black females), is out shining everybody!

I think Black women are taking control of their lives and the Black males dilemma of the so-called “shiftless Negro” character is dieing out of the picture…we must read these facts carefully, there is good and bad here.

Also please read the whole article after you read this excerpt…if I haven’t said, too much that has been “interesting or thought provoking” I think this article will!! (link at bottom of page)


More black women putting off kids to
focus on career


Decline in group’s birth rate being influenced by several factors

By VICTOR MANUEL RAMOS The Orlando Sentinel

“The reduction in teen pregnancies is a big factor, because in black women a lot of the childbearing took place in the younger ages. … The major decline among them has outpaced all other groups. It’s really quite striking.”
Stephanie Ventura Demographer and chief of the reproductive-statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics


Economic betterment


Patrick Mason, an economics professor who directs the African American Studies program at Florida State University, learned from his fertility research that black women are postponing motherhood in pursuit of economic improvement.

More black women than men attend college, Mason said. So not only are black women, married or unmarried, avoiding having children to stay on course, but some of the younger women struggle to find men who meet their expectations, Mason said.

Mason studied statistics from the 1990s for unmarried 25-year-olds whose earnings put them above the poverty level for a family of four.

He found that there were about 300 single black men living above the poverty level for every 1,000 black women in the same category.

“If you think of marriage as mainly an economic event, you can see what’s going on,” Mason adds.

“What it means to be a husband is to be a breadwinner. So, if you are not making enough to be a breadwinner, you are not marriage-eligible in the minds of women as well as men.”

Ya’Frica Tadesse — whose first name is pronounced YAH-fri-ca, similarly to the name of the continent of Africa — and her friends share the sentiment. She meets weekly with three sorority sisters to discuss their experiences and drink cappuccinos — a ritual they’ve embraced after graduating from the University of Central Florida.

Recently they spoke about how their single lives can be a stigma in family circles, where strong women have traditionally been motherly figures.

“Why should we, why should I, settle for less?” asks Stephanie Franklin, 31, one of Tadesse’s friends who is a copy editor at the Hometown News in Fort Pierce, Fla.

“A lot of family members think that something must be wrong. They have actually asked me if I’m lesbian because it’s almost as if people want for you to bring a husband and have a bunch of kids.”

“Not having children now is a change we wanted to make,” said Suzanne McPherson, 27, an elementary-school teacher who lives in Casselberry, Fla.



‘Zero kids’ for now


Rosilyn Williams’ mother, for example, was in her teens when she started her family. She had four children.

Her maternal grandmother had 10 children. Williams’ twin sister has four. Williams, a radiology technologist who is 25, says she has “zero kids” and plans to keep it that way for now.

“If we’re going to be dominant figures, why not be dominant professionally?” Williams said.

Tadesse relays that message of caution to others as manager for youth education and prevention at the Metropolitan Orlando Urban League, a social-service organization that sponsors a pregnancy-prevention program with schools.

She says young women struggle with the contradictory message of excelling without becoming lonely women.

“For me that was kind of the plan,” Tadesse said. “You graduate from high school, you graduate from college; then you think about a family.

My parents told me that, and now it’s like, ‘The waiting is over. Can you really get started now?’”




More black women putting off kids to focus on career (http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10771497.htm)

Brother Sunship In a topic about black women who are planning to have children without the benefit or marriage or a father's involvement (and its natural extension of father's who don't provide for their children). We have jumped from African mothers in the Middle Passage who threw their children overboard so they wouldn't have to be enslaved...to poverty in third world countries...to the hypocrisy of Jesse Jackson, Bill Cosby, and Clarence Thomas...now to career minded Black women that don't want any children. Might I ask how any of this relates to the original topic? Illustrating exceptions to a problem, doesn't mean the problem ceases to exist! In addition a problem can not be solved by changing the subject.

When my wife was 7 months pregnant with our daughter, we enrolled in a Lamaze class. This was the 1st child for both of us. As a result we were nervous, and wanted to get all the instruction that was available. The class turned out to be a waste of time and money: We never used any of the exercises taught in the class, nor did we learn anything from the demonstrations. Indeed I can't even remember most of the instructions that were taught to us. One thing did stick in my mind though. During one class session we watched the infamous child birth video. Three women we featured in the video: A White woman and her husband. A Latina and her husband. Lastly there was a Black woman by herself! I was livid after seeing this video! Why couldn't they have found a Black woman who had a husband? Apparently the producers couldn't afford to wait around to find one. This is the reality of families in our community. Like I have said at nausim..it isn't acceptable, and what ever the multitude of reasons...ultimately there is no excuse! Some subjects are painful to deal with...many involve our family members and friends...but we do the community and our descendants no justice by sweeping problems under the rug!

Yes Brother Panafrica, we are having social abnormities affecting our community…but as the Last Poets said “related to what”?

If we read this except from this article, it is definitely not “whorish Black women” creating the problems; maybe “some of our abnormalities” say we are better than everybody else!

Our situation, as I said, is multifaceted; the ills along with the successes. We can’t oversimplify this issue with generalizations and name-calling. And the group that is usually accused of making the worst decisions (young Black females), is out shining everybody!

I think Black women are taking control of their lives and the Black males dilemma of the so-called “shiftless Negro” character is dieing out of the picture…we must read these facts carefully, there is good and bad here.

Also please read the whole article after you read this excerpt…if I haven’t said, too much that has been “interesting or thought provoking” I think this article will!! (link at bottom of page)


More black women putting off kids to
focus on career


Decline in group’s birth rate being influenced by several factors

By VICTOR MANUEL RAMOS The Orlando Sentinel

“The reduction in teen pregnancies is a big factor, because in black women a lot of the childbearing took place in the younger ages. … The major decline among them has outpaced all other groups. It’s really quite striking.”
Stephanie Ventura Demographer and chief of the reproductive-statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics


Economic betterment


Patrick Mason, an economics professor who directs the African American Studies program at Florida State University, learned from his fertility research that black women are postponing motherhood in pursuit of economic improvement.

More black women than men attend college, Mason said. So not only are black women, married or unmarried, avoiding having children to stay on course, but some of the younger women struggle to find men who meet their expectations, Mason said.

Mason studied statistics from the 1990s for unmarried 25-year-olds whose earnings put them above the poverty level for a family of four.

He found that there were about 300 single black men living above the poverty level for every 1,000 black women in the same category.

“If you think of marriage as mainly an economic event, you can see what’s going on,” Mason adds.

“What it means to be a husband is to be a breadwinner. So, if you are not making enough to be a breadwinner, you are not marriage-eligible in the minds of women as well as men.”

Ya’Frica Tadesse — whose first name is pronounced YAH-fri-ca, similarly to the name of the continent of Africa — and her friends share the sentiment. She meets weekly with three sorority sisters to discuss their experiences and drink cappuccinos — a ritual they’ve embraced after graduating from the University of Central Florida.

Recently they spoke about how their single lives can be a stigma in family circles, where strong women have traditionally been motherly figures.

“Why should we, why should I, settle for less?” asks Stephanie Franklin, 31, one of Tadesse’s friends who is a copy editor at the Hometown News in Fort Pierce, Fla.

“A lot of family members think that something must be wrong. They have actually asked me if I’m lesbian because it’s almost as if people want for you to bring a husband and have a bunch of kids.”

“Not having children now is a change we wanted to make,” said Suzanne McPherson, 27, an elementary-school teacher who lives in Casselberry, Fla.



‘Zero kids’ for now


Rosilyn Williams’ mother, for example, was in her teens when she started her family. She had four children.

Her maternal grandmother had 10 children. Williams’ twin sister has four. Williams, a radiology technologist who is 25, says she has “zero kids” and plans to keep it that way for now.

“If we’re going to be dominant figures, why not be dominant professionally?” Williams said.

Tadesse relays that message of caution to others as manager for youth education and prevention at the Metropolitan Orlando Urban League, a social-service organization that sponsors a pregnancy-prevention program with schools.

She says young women struggle with the contradictory message of excelling without becoming lonely women.

“For me that was kind of the plan,” Tadesse said. “You graduate from high school, you graduate from college; then you think about a family.

My parents told me that, and now it’s like, ‘The waiting is over. Can you really get started now?’”




More black women putting off kids to focus on career (http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10771497.htm)

Next step... More Black women Pastors and Ministers/Healers/MedicineWOman...Perhaps!

Brother Sunship In a topic about black women who are planning to have children without the benefit or marriage or a father's involvement (and its natural extension of father's who don't provide for their children).

Brother Pan, the only thing that was asked the original title was:

Are black women planning to have children without being married

We all know the numbers of single parent households, headed by black women, But are some sistahs deciding to have children without requiring a ring? Share your thoughts

You are creating the sub-title:

(and its natural extension of father's who don't provide for their children)

...its “NATURAL EXTENSION???”
Where did you get that from??????????

You’re stretchin’ brother…

This statement is not implied in the heading and is certainly not a given, as we review the original title. If anything, I just replied to that supposition when it was articulated.

So the question is not how does my post relate to each other, but how did you craftily make such a leap and assert that “deadbeat dads” is a “NATURAL” extension to this topic?

…and the article presented is not just about Black women who are refusing to have children…and if you don’t see any connections to my post or understand the broader implications easily ascertained from that article, than Brother Pan ...I'm sorry...I can’t help you…

…and the article presented is not just about Black women who are refusing to have children…and if you don’t see any connections to my post or understand the broader implications easily ascertained from that article, than Brother Pan ...I'm sorry...I can’t help you…

Brother SunShip you don't need to help me, I'm concerned about helping the children who are being abandoned by fathers & being raised without the guidance of fathers. You are correct this topic is being stretched, it has become 15 different topics, but the most important issue still has not be addressed! It has been covered over with 14 other issues!

I just saw your post before last Brother Pan…the article I present proves that many Black women ARE REFUSING TO HAVE CHILDREN IRRESPONSIBLY, without suitable mates…and that there is also a shortage of Black men who can support productive families…

Now, either sister’s should close their legs and not have fatherless children or they should have children anyway, regardless of who impregnates them or that man’s ability to provide for their family!

Let’s get realistic, most Sister’s with master degrees are not going to marry and have children by a man frying French fries at McDonalds!

And even with those dismal statistics of Black men in college (which can easily be compounded with job displacement in the inner-city), eventually “some” of these sisters are going to have a child, because nature is going to dictate that.

But for the most part, you’re eventually left with the old tired hoochies and ho’s that you despise, populating our community, because the educated Black women and the young Black women are NOW refusing to have babies by men who can’t provide for a family. It is just the opposite, of what has been implied and asserted in this thread!!

-------

and to answer your last post, what are you addressing besides attacks and character assasination... what is the solution, Brother...new child support laws? We see the sisters are not as whorish as you think! Let's focus on the "shiftless Negroes"...how are you going to change them?

Peace

I just saw your post before last Brother Pan…the article I present proves that many Black women ARE REFUSING TO HAVE CHILDREN IRRESPONSIBLY, without suitable mates…and that there is also a shortage of Black men who can support productive families…

Now, either sister’s should close their legs and not have fatherless children or they should have children anyway, regardless of who impregnates them or that man’s ability to provide for their family!

Let’s get realistic, most Sister’s with master degrees are not going to marry and have children by a man frying French fries at McDonalds!

And even with those dismal statistics of Black men in college (which can easily be compounded with job displacement in the inner-city), eventually “some” of these sisters are going to have a child, because nature is going to dictate that.

But for the most part, you’re eventually left with the old tired hoochies and ho’s that you despise, populating our community, because the educated Black women and the young Black women are NOW refusing to have babies by men who can’t provide for a family. It is just the opposite, of what has been implied and asserted in this thread!!

-------

and to answer your last post, what are you addressing besides attacks and character assasination... what is the solution, Brother...new child support laws? We see the sisters are not as whorish as you think! Let's focus on the "shiftless Negroes"...how are you going to change them?

Peace

Sun Ship don't insult my intelligence or motivations. No where have I said that all black women are having children irresponsibly. It is obvious that there are many black women who are not doing this. I don't need you to point this out to me. My mother did not, my wife (who also has 2 Masters Degrees) did not, my mother in-law did not. Indeed every black woman in my immediate circle did not. The subject of the conversation; however, is women that do have children irresponsibly. Switching the topic to those who don't have children irresponsibly (because you don't want to talk about that) doesn't address that many do. Indeed it doesn't address the fact that many MORE don't! Brother Sun Ship you aren't dealing with the realities of the community.

I'm not a white man, that is unaware of the day to day life in the African American experience. Who needs to obtain a balance of positive & negative reports in order to judge progress in the black community. Who is trying to decide if the African American community is worthy of existance based on what he learns. No brother Sun Ship I am a member of the African American community. I'm aware of all the good and the bad. Although I celebrate the good (and the good needs to be celebrated), the bad can not be ignored. That head in the sand mentality has done untold harm in our community!

The achievements of the college educated black woman are fantastic. As are the achievements of the college educated black man (which I am a part of). If I want a feel good story, I can always go back to them. However the college educated black woman and black man does not make up the majority of our community. It is just the opposite. Roughly only 14% of our community (15% for Black women) are obtaining Bachelors Degrees or higher. These numbers are certainly increasing, including the amount of black men in college (despite popular reports). However the amount of college educated black people aren't increasing so rapidly that it changes the fact that the uncollege educated black woman and man make up the overwhelming majority (at least 80%) of our community. The progress of a community depends the progress of the majority, not just the elite. Afterall many of these "all important" college educated black folk step off the college campus, and never step foot into the black community (physically or mentally) ever again! This reality is what made Dr. WEB Du Bois' talented tenth ultimately irrelevant for advancing our race. Also might I point out that there are college educated black women who are also having children out of wedlock! This issue is about upbring, not lack of formal education!

Is my solution to the undeniable problem of a large number African American men not caring for or providing for their children; and a large number of African American women purposefully having children by men who aren't likely to provide for them and their children; new child support laws? No this isn't my solution. Child support doesn't address my major concern, which is a large number (actually the majority) of children being raised in our community without the guidance of their father. Money does not substitute the presence of a father. This remains true when a woman is "financially" able to support a child by herself. A "father figure" is not a father! An uncle is not a father! An older cousin is not a father! A big brother is not a father! The children of our community deserve to have their fathers (not court ordered checks from their father) actively involved in their daily life.

My thoughts along a solution to this problem is re-educating the community on the importance of having a father in the home. Educating black men (really black boys because that is where it must start) about their obligations to the children they create. That they must provide for said children irregardless of their feelings about the mother, and her new boyfriend. Even better yet teaching him that he shouldn't even have children by a woman he doesn't intend to make his wife. Along the same lines the black woman needs to be re-educated about the importance of choosing a man who capable of being a good father & provider for her children. That financial ability is not the sole determining factor in deciding on a man. That she should not have children by a man, who does not think enough about her, to make her his wife. Apparently you think this is impossible, so much so that you don't want to even talk about it!

Sistah, we know it's not fair, but the question is what do you do to prevent it.


Lol Im a birth control advocate. I make sure i stay on my birth control..condoms as well..nothing is 100 percent..have to have a backup..for your backup!! Free from disease..free from unplanned pregnancies..Gotta be a pure vessel for when it is time to bear children for G-D and my husband.

Whew! What a heated debate.

I agree 100% with everything Pan and Sun have eloquently said, except for one point: educated, upper-class black women are making mistakes too. For some, the reality of taking care of a kid makes them realize how important getting an education and establishing a career is. So, there are situations where the women get their degrees and everything else after the fact. There are also those who despite how smart they are mentally, are dumb emotionally.

This was truly a learning experience for me. You guys have great minds!