Black People : Ancient Black Chinese? [Archive] - Black People | African Americans

indya

01-10-2005, 11:45 AM

Early migrations out of Africa:

People first migrated from East Africa around the regions of Ethiopia and Somalia to Yemen, Oman, Southern India, Burma, China, Malaysia, The Philippines, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Australia, The Solomon Islands and all the little islands in between.

The migrations and trade westward by sea started declining only about 11,000 years ago when the world sea level rose, recovering from the last deep marine regression caused by global cooling and the locking-up of water in continental glaciers.

There were the Northern migrations, from Ethiopia through the Saudi Arabian region and the migrations down the Nile and through the Sahara region.

Those who traveled over land mixed with other Africans who went through physiological changes as they traveled at earlier periods. Those who made the journey by sea, in one trip, entered foreign lands with the original Black looks.

Examining the migrations through both land and sea routes will allow for a better understanding of the complex exchanges between groups of people who evolved and continued to evolve while migrating out of Africa. Some groups entered China with their original form and others evolved along the way and entered China looking different to their ancestral form.

All people on this earth are connected to the indigenous African people and the migrations of people today can be proven not only by examining the historical records but also through DNA studies.

I think science has proven pretty affectively that humans came from Africa. The people moved north and south and continued to change physically because of isolation and the environment. Kind of helps out "can't we all just get along" since if you go back far enough we all started out from the same group of people.

panafrica

01-10-2005, 12:05 PM

True indeed Indya!

Sun Ship

01-10-2005, 12:28 PM

sinoping, It's sort of interesting that you came here to study us and when you found out that African Americans were not going to respond to your National Geographic type of observations and sociological probing, you took the humble approach and invoked your Asian sisterhood.

I wonder if you think, anything you have posted so far, was absurd or a joke? Do you think we are here to just crack jokes? Why is it that, all scholarship and historical documentations by African Americans are viewed as some sort of absurdity and/or full of frivolity (a joke)? Well, like I said to the last xenophobe that came here trying to use this forum as a social laboratory and disingenuously telling us, how much he liked our culture. “you came here to study us, but in turn we are now and have always been studying you”, along with the question of, what valid association do we have with Asian cultures and more importantly, what valid association do Asian cultures have with us?

Just remember one thing, we were on this planet first...you came from us!

Now if you have any opposing scholarship or any intelligent responses to the Blacks in China thread then we are waiting to debate. But first, if this excerpt from the article is true, “The skeletal remains from southern China are predominately negroid. (Chang 1964, p.70)” than you probably need to start your discourse disputing the works of this man:

Dr. Kwang-chih Chang

K. C. Chang, the late John E. Hudson Professor of Anthropology at Harvard University, was the author of many books, including The Archaeology of Ancient China, published by Yale University Press.

Here is a short bibliography of some of Dr. Chang’s works:

Rethinking archaeology (Studies in anthropology, AS6 Random House (1967)

Settlement archaeology National Press Books (1968)

Fengpitou, Tapenkeng, and the Prehistory of Taiwan Yale University Press (June 1, 1969)

Early Chinese Civilization: Anthropological Perspectives (Harvard-Yenching Institute monograph series ; v. 23) Harvard Univ Pr (June 1, 1976)

Shang civilization Yale University Press (1980)

The Archaeology of Ancient China Yale Univ Pr; 4th edition (May 1, 1987)

The Formation of Chinese Civilization: An Archaeological Perspective by K. C. Chang, Pingfang Xu, Sarah Allan, Kwang-Chih Chang Yale University Press (November 1, 2002)

Also here are the particular references given from the Black in China article:

Chang, K C , "Prehistory and Early Historic Culture Horizon and Traditions in South China", Current Anthropology 5, no5
Chang, K C , The Archaeology of Ancient China, New Haven:Yale (1964), pages 359-375.
Chang, K C , Shang Civilization, New Haven:Yale University Press,198

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

Sun Ship

01-10-2005, 04:51 PM

Here are some more, (as sister sinpong would put it) absurdities:

The songs remain the same
AsiaViews, Edition:47/I/December/2004

Over the weekend, the Saisiyat tribe from Hsinchu and Miaoli held its biannual
events to mourn and celebrate the legacy of the Short Black People, who are thought
to be Taiwan's original inhabitants

Link here for full article:The songs remain the same (http://www.asiaviews.org/?content=634ft600014545e&features=20041201195048)

Looking after the little people

Amin is a Saisiyat tribe member who lives near caves said to have been inhabited for millennia by a race of black pygmies

TAIPEI TIMES
By Jules Quartly
STAFF REPORTER
Sunday, Dec 05, 2004,Page 18

Link here for full article:Looking after the little people (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/12/05/2003213909)

After if you have read the Asian newspaper articles...I wonder if these couple of scholarly tidbits found on the web are false:

statement 1: :D

Quite a few classic Chinese wrote of "Black Dwarfs" with whom they shared the region. According to Chinese archaeologist Kwang-chih Chang, early skulls found in Southern China bore evidence of "Oceanic Negroid" types. He goes on to state that as early as -221 (the Chin Dynasty), "Negritos whom the Chinese call 'Black Dwarfs' are reported in the mountainous districts south of the Yangtze."

statement 2: :D

There are far too many variables affecting societal stability: climate, war and civil strife, leadership, fluctuations in availability of food sources and potable water, disease, natural and manmade disasters. And far too many holes in the presumption of relative homogeneity in other Asian populations -- most notably, China. Actually, there are traces of aboriginal and ancient "Negroid" peoples throughout China and Asia. There are so-called "black Thai" throughout Thailand, Cambodia and Laos, in parts of China, India, who look just like the San bushmen; but, by and large, with straight/straighter hair. Tibetans are quite dark and look very different, generally, from other Chinese. There are also notable differences -- physical, linguistic and cultural -- among other ethnicities in China. Furthermore, it is fairly widely known that Chinese dialects are very divergent from one another. Source material from SPICE, the Stanford Program on International and Cross-cultural Education, states:

"In China there are many different dialects. Dialects usually refer to 'regional forms of a language.' However, many of the regional variants which are commonly referred to as 'dialects' of the Chinese language are more different from one another than French is from Spanish or Norwegian is from Swedish!"

Also, if you need more background on Dr. Kwang-Chih Chang this might help:

Kwang-Chih Chang

1931-2001

Kwang-Chih Chang, an anthropologist and archaeologist from China. He is a specialist in Far East Asian prehistory. Mr. Chang was born in Beijing, China. In 1950, he enrolled as a freshman student in the Department of Anthropology at National Taiwan University. Four years later, he completed a bachelor thesis on Lungshan Culture. Chang moved to the United States in 1955.He had the best training opportunity to study anthropology and earned a Ph.D. program at Harvard University. Later, he taught at both Yale University and Harvard from 1961 to 1977.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

sinoping

01-10-2005, 06:09 PM

Fine, whatever boosts your ego, brother(s)

I noticed some people here are too obsessed with the theory "the whole world is spreading propaganda and conspirating and discriminating against us black people. We're the only people who know the truth and we must claim this and that."

Very disappointing.

PurpleMoons

01-10-2005, 07:15 PM

hmmm. Some people say they want the whole truth, when in reality they only want the parts that benefit their own personal gratifications.

These Brothers did not have to go out of their way to show you the connection through route of proven history facts. In fact, they welcomed you with open arms in hopes to build a commonailty. If you opposed to their findings, simply state why and back it up with your proof. That is what you asked them to do right, bring proof? If you feel that the proof they have presented is frabrications, then prove it.

What is so horrible about being connected to the African heritage, that you would immediately rule out any connections? Does it has anything to do with excercizing your use of the race card? Does it have anything to do with feeling above and better than the next race? Or could it simply be the desire to claim something as your very own. If it is such a desire, Sister Sinoping, you still can. The Chinese race have accompished many great things on their own. No one here is trying to take that away from you. All they are saying is, in the beginning their were one race that existed, and that race populated the world. If you have a different theory, than present it. We all know that it began somewhere. Where do you think it began? or don't that even matter to you?

I have to agree with you on one thing though, you're very disappointing!

Sun Ship

01-10-2005, 08:05 PM

Sister sinoping, I knew you couldn’t handle the truth. Sorry, to destroy YOUR EGO and your racist preconceived notions of who and what you thought Black people were and who are the predecessors of modern Chinese people. I referenced YOUR OWN scholars along with excerpts from books and articles from Asian newspapers. I guess if we kept the conversation around the origins of moonwalkin’, break dancin’ and rap music the dialogue would of have been fine.

I know you were lookin’ for nice and complacent Negroes, stereotypically docile in our ways. I know television and White’s have convinced you that we have low I. Q.s and don’t read scholarly works. How could we know these things about cultural anthropology and forensic archaeology, you probably asked yourself? I know you probably thought Bill Cosby’s hyperboles and diatribes about African Americans were probably true.

Let’s read some of your blustering, as you bloviate without facts or reason:

Fine, whatever boosts your ego, brother(s)

I noticed some people here are too obsessed with the theory "the whole world is spreading propaganda and conspirating and discriminating against us black people. We're the only people who know the truth and we must claim this and that."

Very disappointing.

First of all, before you confuse references to academic works as propaganda, you probably need to read some of the works of Noam Chomsky, so you will know who is really the propagandist in the world (is it whites or blacks?). If you have been misinformed about the true definition of conspiracy and discrimination, I could use your own history, as it is related to Western Civilization to give you a clear understanding of both.

There are Asians culturally collaborating with African Americans everyday; they along with their African American counterparts have decided to find historical relationships and cultural commonalities on their own terms, while developing their own African Asiatic historiology. But, the historical facts about Africans will no longer be side stepped for the expediency and superficiality of socially-correct symbiotic relationships that mean nothing.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

PS_to show you I'm not mad.... :dance1:

maybe that will give you some satisfaction :lol:

Sun Ship

01-10-2005, 10:04 PM

From The Hong Kong Naturalist, August 1939, p. 188-189

A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC
CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA.

PROF, WEI CHU-HSIEN, M.A.

III. ANCESTORS OF YIN TRIBE WERE BLACK.

There are two symbols in the script on the " shell and bone " (Figure
i, a and b), which the Yin tribe worshipped as their ancestors. In some
of our old books, one of these symbols was translated as ();.
Later on, we find two books Shih Tze and Huai Nan Tze
both of which explained that the character(); meant a blackskinned
person. Shih Tze was written in the 3rd century B.C., and Huai
Nan Tze in the 2nd century B.C. Also, in the Book of Odes,
there is a poem named Ch'ang Fa; it says that the 1st ancestor
of Yin Dynasty was a "Black King",…the black people in the North
must have come from the South in Kiangsu. In another chapter of the Book of Odes,
the chapter of Black Bird the story says that the ancestor of Yin tribe
was a black bird.

The parentheses represent Chinese characters that unfortunately could not be typed or pasted.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

sinoping

01-11-2005, 12:22 AM

Referring to the Sun Ship's "evidences" from book of odes. There's no such an indication that the founder of Shang, Emperor Chengtang, was a Black. Yin/Shang people, along with other tribes in eastern/northeastern China, worshipped the bird/phoenix totem. Since so many Blacks are eager to find any possible relation between Chinese and Africans, they seem to interpret everything that's black in color as an indication of black ancestry.

I'm not denying the fact there were negrittos in southeast asia, who later expanded into southern China. In the chronicles of Zhou, Qin and Han, the Chinese discovered these black dwarves. If Chinese were black dwarves or descent thereof, why would be amazed to find these creatures? Why would they call these barbarians black dwarves?

Referring to the article Black Chinese -
Huangdi's name was Xuanyuan, with a paternal surname of Gongsun, and a maternal surname of Ji. Where did they get "Hu Nak Kunte" from? Roots?

Li min means black headed people? Li min means commoners, or subjects under the imperial regime. It contains no meaning of "black" whatsoever. And Emperor Yao was Black? What is it based on? Throughout the article, the author keeps using "li min" as "black headed people". Hell ya, that's why we suddenly have so many black headed people in our historical records.

There was never a Huan Long clan or a Yu Long clan.

Sure, the scripts looked similar. Hieroglyphics is based on pictorious symbols of objects. That's all those ancient people, despite of where they were from, could think of anyway.

And I really don't understand the part about the Chinese and Manding. I can't even read the "Chinese", if that's even Chinese. There are linguists who write books on cultures and peoples and whose languages the linguists don't even know of. It doesn't really matter, considering the intended audience is African-Americans who can't speak Chinese or Manding.

And brother whatever (can't remember which one) - yes, Chinese came from Africa, so did other people of the homo sapien descent. However, coming from Africa doesn't mean being Black. The term Black normally refers to those who remained in Africa after the species diverged into Mongolid people, Caucasoid people and others. It is not legitimate for Blacks to fantacize credits of Chinese civilisation or any other civilisations just because we all, at some point, were from Africa.

It appears some Black people want to make it up their loss and desperation in modern times by claiming other people's cultures. It is time for them to sit down and think it over and perhaps find something good in their own heritage.

Sorry I had a bad attitude yesterday and today. As a Chinese, I've encountered outrageous claims of foreigners ( Blacks, Whites, Turks, Koreans, Hmongs....etc) "inventing" or "civilizing" Chinese. I was under the impression that some people here were on the same thing because they sounded like it. And someone had used the exactly same article before. It's very frustrating.

Keita Kenyatta

01-11-2005, 01:58 AM

sinoping

01-11-2005, 02:02 AM

Hold on for a minute here! Am I reading this correctly? Do you think it was possible for people to come from ancient africa and NOT BE BLACK? Where in history have you come across this? Have you studied mitichondrial DNA which has been proven to trace everyone on the earth back to a black or African woman? Or is it possible that you think there were different cradles of human development, which of course would fly in the face of science and history?
You're not reading this correctly. I said, the Black people you refer to nowadays, the Black identity can not represent all humans who came out of Africa. After the divergence of races, the Blacks are Blacks, Chinese are Chinese and so on. The Blacks are not responsible for things that other races do.

Keita Kenyatta

01-11-2005, 02:19 AM

okay, don't chew my head off ! :-)

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 02:24 AM

I see you never went after the works of the Chinese scholars I presented. I used the Black in China article as a primer, but all of my verification was based on the works of renowned Chinese scholars and I referenced two Asians newspapers!

And for you to call Black pygmies (Twa people) “creatures” shows your lack of humanity.

Why don’t you attack the works of Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A. and Dr. Kwang-chih Chang directly! Why don’t you attack or refute this excerpt from the Taipei Times story, Looking after the little people:

"The race is said by various out-of-Africa theorists to have arrived in Asia as long as 20,000 to 50,000 years ago. The first mythical emperor, Fu Hsi was a "black dwarf," they claim. Aborigines are thought to have migrated to Taiwan about 3,000 years ago (other estimates range from 1,000 to 10,000 years). There is another theory that Taiwanese tribes were the first Austronesians."

I went to the source of the story.

Sister sinoping, we are not trying to take your culture and your pronouncements of such, are short-sighted and ridiculous. We have one of the most respected and copied cultures in the world. From ancient Egypt to West Africa… from Jazz to even Hip hop. The inventions of Africans and African Americans are profound and have changed the modern world.

Everything is open for debate, even in academic circles, but for you, to try to denounce my presentation of scholarship, as some sort of pandering or a need to circumvent Asian culture, is laughable.

I had to go to a couple of Chinese and Asian based Internet forums to see how racist and xenophobic Chinese are towards African Americans. But, with YOU calling a race of Black people “CREATURES”, you’ve finally revealed yourself.

Peace out,

Brother Sun Ship :D :cool:

sinoping

01-11-2005, 02:32 AM

I'm not racist, brother. You've understood my term of "creature". For ancient Chinese, they'd never encountered pygmies before and of course they'd find them strange looking.

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 02:59 AM

Sister sinoping, This is straight out of China, no Black hands on this report...

Gene Study Finds New Link to Africa

Local genetics sleuths have come up with new evidence they say could prove that China's ancestors came from Africa several hundred thousand years later than previously thought.

If further investigation ultimately proves their thesis correct, it would show that today's Chinese are the product of modern African man - and did not evolve separately from ancient human beings.

"The research can play a critical role in discovering similarities among China's ethnic groups, showing a common lineage," said Ke Yuehai, one of the chief scientists involved in the project. "And by discovering similar genetic characteristics among populations living in different parts of the world, it may speed up the development of gene-related medicines."

The study, funded under a 3 million yuan (US$361,000) grant from the National Natural Science Foundation, is not limited solely to finding China's links to its past.

"Our ultimate purpose is to disclose the origins of all human beings," said Xu Yongqing, president of Shanghai Anthropology Association, which assisted in the effort.

In carrying out the study, 10 researchers from Fudan University's Genetics Department spent almost two years investigating the genes of 10,000 Chinese men selected randomly from across the mainland, including Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and Tibet.

They discovered in these blood samples that the chromosome responsible for gender held a structural characteristic identical to that found in Africans by American researchers last year.

This same characteristic also has been uncovered in human bones dating back almost 80,000 years in Africa - but not in remains any older than that.

"I believe our experi-mental results are the best evidence to support the theory that all modern human beings throughout the world have their origins in Africa," Ke said.

There are two competing hypotheses on the origin of modern Chinese. Some researchers with the Chinese Academy of Sciences believe the country's earliest humans, known as Homo erectus pekinensis and who lived in northern China 500,000 years ago, are the country's ancestors because many of their fossils have been found.

These scientists favor the so-called multiregional hypothesis, which holds that every region has its own race developing from primitive man, which left Africa some 1 million years ago.

But others disagree.

They argue that since few pekinensis fossils have been found from the period 200,000 to 100,000 years ago, that form of man apparently died out.

They subscribe to the out-of-Africa hypothesis, which holds that a second migration occurred about 100,000 years ago in which anatomically modern humans of African origin conquered the world by completely replacing archaic human populations.

(Eastday.com.cn 03/27/2001)

http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/9710.htm

and in case you need to refute the author of this story here is there contact info...in Beijing:

Telephone: 86-10-68996217
Fax: 86-10-68997796
E-mail: wandi@china.org.cn
China Internet Information Center
24 Baiwanzhuang Road
Beijing 100037
China

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 03:02 AM

One more time:

"Chinese are the product of modern African man..."

h_mmmm :cool:

PurpleMoons

01-11-2005, 03:23 AM

Sinoping, I can relate to your frustrations and my brothers can also. Please don't assume that all of us here want to claim the accomplishments of the chinese.

Now you too, should be able to understand the frustrations of Black people. Our heritage was stolen from us and still is being denied up until this day. We have a Beautiful history that is filled with numerous account of accomplishments, culturally, spirtually, and creatively. By no means are we ashamed of such a beautiful, once peaceful past.

However, we are frustrated and we are tired of lies and sterotyping that is done across the world. Mostly all races, acknowlege and wade in our contribution to the world up to date, but it is constantly being denied in our face when we present such facts. Many races of people want to look down on us as if our existence didn't play a huge factor in theirs, while sipping on the fruits that my Ancestor's picked with their blood stained hands.

No one wants to talk about how before the civil rights movement, not many other minorities had the balls to step into this brutal racist country. But after the movement, it began to look more delicious to them. Yet another contribution that is largely consumed over the blood and bodies of Black people.

Yes, I can go on forever talking about the greatness of my people, but until it is given its do respect, I will continue to humilate anyone who denies such honors. Just as you will defend the history of your people.

Your love for your people run no deeper than mine and mine's no deeper than yours. Just don't deny that my people didn't make any contributions to yours, and I won't claim that your people accomplishments couldn't have been properous, if it wasn't for mine.

It would be nice if we could communicate with other minorities who share similar concerns.

If that is not possible, then so be it!!

sinoping

01-11-2005, 03:45 AM

Sun Ship : I've read your post. It's not like Chinese have never done mistakes. :spin: Some people would post controversial topics just to get publicity. Besides, I don't recall seeing any significant findings after the publication date. :) If Amerindians ( archaic Mongolids) were not Blacks, why would neo-Mongolids (Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese, Koreans) be?

PurpleMoon : I can't say I know exactly how African-Americans ( or Africans in general) feel, but I do see where you're coming from. Minorities in the U.S. are facing the same struggles, and that's one of the reasons why I'm here, to promote further understanding and a friendlier relationship between African-Americans and Chinese. We don't really have anything against each other, it's just our perspectives and versions of "truth" vary, and we're presenting our known information to clear things out. I like the members here and you've all helped me out a lot. I shall apologize if I ever left any offensive remakrs unintentionally.

By the way, I don't think I deserve to be called a racist. :tongue:

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 04:01 AM

HERALD INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNE

It's Not a Chinese World After All

Paris, Monday, July 12, 1999

By Philip Bowring International Herald Tribune.

HONG KONG - Genetics is a stirring subject for nationalists and historians. It is especially so for a China eager to underline the singularity of Chinese bloodlines and establish historical claims over neighbors. But genetic science has been dealing some rude shocks to those who like to use so-called racial identity for political purposes.

This year, scientists announced that the closest genetic relatives of New Zealand's indigenous Maori people were to be found in Taiwan. The news stunned Chinese, especially those accustomed to believe in the uniqueness of the Chinese "race" and that Taiwan has been part of China from time immemorial.

In a process which took thousands of years, the seafaring Malayo/Polynesian peoples colonized every island from Madagascar in the west to Tahiti and Hawaii in the east, and from Taiwan and southern Japan in the north to New Zealand.

They reached their southernmost destination a millennium ago, or some 400 years before Han Chinese from the mainland began to settle in Taiwan. The Hans did not become the majority until about 250 years ago.

On this Taiwan issue, genetics did not spring a surprise, although it underlines awkward facts for a Beijing government that has as much commitment to historical accuracy as Stalin's Soviet Encyclopedia did. But consider the shock to racist mythologizing of genetic mapping of groups of Chinese. The mapping is the work not of enemies eager to put down all things Chinese but of an international team of Chinese and other scientists working on a Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project.

The project suggests that the original human inhabitants of China did not originate in the Chinese heartland, on the lands drained by the Yellow River or the Yangtze. They migrated into the region from the southwest. Worse still, from a Chinese racist perspective, they originated in Africa.

That there was no specifically Chinese, or non-African, source of humankind may hardly be news elsewhere, but it is news to a China which has been pouring money into archaeological efforts to find a Chinese equivalent of the earliest African hominids.

The genome project also demonstrates the wide variations of genetic makeup within China (even excluding latterly acquired territories such as Xinjiang) and the number of common factors linking Chinese and non-Chinese in East Asia.

None of this should really come as a surprise. Body size, head shape and susceptibility to diseases have long been known to vary greatly between north and south in China. The latter people are often closer in appearance to Southeast Asians.

Many Chinese, including some race-conscious descendants of migrants to Southeast Asia, have clung to blood-based beliefs, similar to 19th century Western ones, in "superior" and "inferior" races. Such racism has percolated into laws, including those of Hong Kong, where people of ''Chinese race'' - undefined but generally interpreted as ancestry - have long been given preferential treatment regardless of their current language, culture or nationality.

Japan, of course, has harbored some of the same myths, and as a result has long confined its citizens of Korean ancestry to inferior status. Japanese genetic origins are far more diverse than the nation's cultural homogeneity would suggest.

At a time when Chinese nationalism is on the rise, genetic science will be a doing a service if it keeps Chinese identity channeled into cultural and political spheres where it belongs, rather than flirting with spurious "blood" concepts that have caused such suffering elsewhere.

If you can't belive the work of these Chinese geneticist working on the Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project than there is no hope...!

I wish you well....

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

sinoping

01-11-2005, 04:27 AM

This year, scientists announced that the closest genetic relatives of New Zealand's indigenous Maori people were to be found in Taiwan.
It's already known. The original inhabitants of Taiwan were Austronesians. When Han invaded the island, Han almost exterminated their race and forced them to hide in mountains. Now the Austronesian natives only make up 2% of Taiwan's population.

The project suggests that the original human inhabitants of China did not originate in the Chinese heartland, on the lands drained by the Yellow River or the Yangtze. They migrated into the region from the southwest. Worse still, from a Chinese racist perspective, they originated in Africa.
This "Chinese racist perspectives" is a result of an urban myth of another equivalent species of homo sapien that's not a descent of Africans. It's an absurd view and it is not accepted by the majority of Chinese anyway.

Many Chinese, including some race-conscious descendants of migrants to Southeast Asia, have clung to blood-based beliefs, similar to 19th century Western ones, in "superior" and "inferior" races.
Why did you darken this?

Anyway, this is an old article dated back to 1999. The subtitle "It's Not a Chinese World Afterall" is provocative and should not be paid any attention.

Mad Skillz

01-11-2005, 07:05 AM

Anyway, this is an old article dated back to 1999. The subtitle "It's Not a Chinese World Afterall" is provocative and should not be paid any attention.

It should not be paid any attention because you dislike the article or perhaps you have evidence to debunk the contrary? My, how one's feathers get ruffled. How one's true colors always show despite "promoting further understanding and friendlier relationship."

Sorry to crush your cookie, currently there are numerous scientific publications and books from respected scholars and world renouned anthropologist (whether they be black, white or chinese) that supports the early Black presence in far East Asia in addition to professor Chu-Hsien disposition. Might i add the scientific community is at the beginning stages. So strap on your seatbelt there's more to come. But apparently you are ill informed of such information or simply would rather be in denial. Irregardless, it is apparent whatever hard evidence is presented you'll insist the world is flat hypothesis at all cost. That's your prerogative. But continue to lie to yourself and you'll continue to get smacked with the truth.

Now, you've been served. Be gone satan!!!

jamesfrmphilly

01-11-2005, 09:16 AM

who's yo daddy, now, sinoping? :jawdrop:

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 10:24 AM

Sister sinoping, I will retract only one thing and that is, any personal references I made, implying that you are personally a racist, but you have definitely been tainted, by the systemic, cultural and institutionalized racism and xenophobia of Chinese or Western socialization.

I repeat, you have not given ONE academic, scientific or intellectual rebuttal to the works of Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A., Dr. Kwang-Chih Chang or the findings of the Chinese geneticist involved in the Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project, that’s worthy of ponderance.

I don’t think you will ever accept, what the scientific pronouncement below, really means:

"Chinese are the product of modern African man..."

Now, as far as that statement is concerned, you need to argue with and reeducate these people, not us:

China Internet Information Center
24 Baiwanzhuang Road
Beijing 100037
China

As I said, there is no hope for true unity between our communities or cultures, if the average Chinese (like many African Americans) refuses to realize, they have been bamboozled, mis-educated and lied to.

Sister sinoping, you need to obtain and read, the right material and open your mind.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship :cool

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 10:53 AM

If Amerindians ( archaic Mongolids) were not Blacks, why would neo-Mongolids (Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese, Koreans) be?

Oh by the way, concerning the Amerindians, there have been some interesting skeletal remains found in North and South America that are very old, which are phenotypically African and are very puzzling to archeologist...you may find interest in this research (don't hold my breath..right? :D).

Also, The Olmec culture is very interesting and you may be surprise what you find. The evidence that these people were phenotypically Africoid (Negroid) is overwhelming and has been written about by many Mexican scholars. There is a lot of symbolism and cuneiforms that are interesting to Africa and Chinese scholars.

THEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS by Ivan Van Sertima (good book, concerning Olmec culture)

Before I forget.... after reading the last part of this post...

By the way, I don't think I deserve to be called a racist. :tongue:

I found this sort of cute...you know...the tongue thing :tongue:. :lol:

Peace

indya

01-11-2005, 11:14 AM

Sinoping,

The remains found in africa are almost 2 million years old. The skeletans DNA matched most closely with DNA of africans of today.

I don't know that they could identify skin color or hair texture, so maybe they didn't look like africans of today.

These people were living hand to mouth just surviving for 100's of thousands of years I'm sure, before they started civilizations. Their physical characteristics were changing through all of this time because of isolation and environment.

I don't think anyone is trying to claim chinese history since by the time history was being written down the chinese had changed physically and looked like chinese of today. They're just saying there were blacks, that looked black, in china.

Look at the eskimos sometime, some have asian facial features. They came across the land bridge this is expected. But by the time the people moved down into america and south america the facial features had changed again.

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 11:56 AM

Let’s slow this down a bit…since history and genetics are meaningless and useless here (or at least to Sister sinoping)…I could post the pictures of many African tribes that have skin as dark as the night and have typical Asiatic (Mongoloids) facial features. There are tribes in Africa that are so Mongoloid and have strong phenotypic features, similar to Chinese people (or other Asians) and also are so genetically close to mongoloid Asians that anthropologist and geneticist have been categorizing them as Mongoloid for years. (I believe the tribes are, the Nkung and the Sans people)

Let’s simplify this even more; have you ever really looked at the face of Nelson Mandela? If you removed his wooly hair and lighten his skin, you could place him in the middle of south China or Southeast Asia without much difficulty. If you look at the physiognomy (facial features) of many South East Asians like some Philippinos, Vietnamese and some southern Chinese ethnics, you see strong Africoid (or Negroid) features. This is really easier than genetics and rocket science, but both of these disciplines are not as complex as racism.

Peace,

Brother Sun :D

PS___I really dislike the terms Negroid and Mongoloid, for both have there academic merits, but are scientifically insufficient (as far as genetics) and are somewhat racist.

sinoping

01-11-2005, 03:12 PM

Sun Ship, I have not and cannot rebut your articles with academic posts, not that you have rebutted the Chinese dynastic chronicles and other primary sources anyway. I'm certain you can find numerous works on "Black Chinese" if you just type that term on google. I can't find an academic work asserting Chiense are not Black, because Chinese or Western historians ( except a few "scientist" you listed, which is a very insignificant number) are going to spend their time writing what Chinese are not. If we are to write "Chinese are not black", we'll be wasting our time to write the same thing for other races as well. We won't do that, unless this ridiculous claim is taken seriously by the international community.

Neolithic cultures, such as Hongshan, were not Black. There are skeletons found in the ruins of Hongshan culture, and they resemble modern people of Northern China, who do not look like Blacks.

Isaiah

01-11-2005, 04:19 PM

Sister SinoPing... Nothing in nature happens TWICE... That is the mantra of scientist of all ethnic backgrounds - not just something this African American made up...

This statement means that an event occurs in nature, and is the mother and father of all others occurring thereafter... Scientists LONG AGO concluded that the Human species began in Africa, and from Africa peopled the world... Why did they conclude this??? Because, consistently, the oldest Human Remains they found were in Africa, and primarily in the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania... They are still finding old Human Remains there, as well as, in the rest of the world... Guess what??? The remains in Africa are flat out older than those found anywhere else on the globe...

I aint calling you a racist(I would not really care if you were, as that is your choice), but I would like to know that if White folks say they are the oldest folk in China, or that they are the progenitors of the ancient Chinese, what would be the response?(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 04:22 PM

Do you realize that all of this knowledge and research is coming from the Chinese academic and scientific community, internationally and inside of China? What is it, you don’t understand about that??…If someone is being delusional and falsifying my information, then it is the Chinese scientific and scholarly community (geneticist, historians and archeologist). Sister sinoping, NO ONE is calling the modern Chinese, Black people…were did you get that from????

Man, this is the worst case of confusion and denial I have ever experienced at Destee.com….:confused::confused::confused:

sinoping

01-11-2005, 06:31 PM

This statement means that an event occurs in nature, and is the mother and father of all others occurring thereafter... Scientists LONG AGO concluded that the Human species began in Africa, and from Africa peopled the world... Why did they conclude this??? Because, consistently, the oldest Human Remains they found were in Africa, and primarily in the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania... They are still finding old Human Remains there, as well as, in the rest of the world... Guess what??? The remains in Africa are flat out older than those found anywhere else on the globe...
Misunderstanding. I have NEVER questioned we all came from Africa. What I've been trying to say is that the ones who remained in Africa consitutes the term "Black", the ones who went to Europe became Europeans, the ones who crossed Siberia became North Asians (Northern Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese), and the ones who took another route into Burma and Southeast Asian were identified as pygmies. It's incorrect to say "Black Chinese".

I aint calling you a racist(I would not really care if you were, as that is your choice), but I would like to know that if White folks say they are the oldest folk in China, or that they are the progenitors of the ancient Chinese, what would be the response?(smile!)
What do Whites have to do with this? I've seen Whites claiming Chinese civilisation and I found them as absurd as this. It's not like I'm intentionally "looking down" Blacks or trying to hide your accomplishments. I have no special feelings to Whites as I have no special favor in Black.

Do you realize that all of this knowledge and research is coming from the Chinese academic and scientific community, internationally and inside of China? What is it, you don’t understand about that??…If someone is being delusional and falsifying my information, then it is the Chinese scientific and scholarly community (geneticist, historians and archeologist). Sister sinoping, NO ONE is calling the modern Chinese, Black people…were did you get that from????
I didn't say you said modern Chinese were Black. I said, they found skeletons from a neolithic Chinese cultural site of Hongshan, and they look like modern northern Chinese. If modern Chinese people aren't Black, as acknowledge by yourself, then why would the Hongshan culture, whose people look exactly like modern Chinese, be Black?
Maybe it's because you're an African descent and you find this convincing. As I said, I've seen Whites claiming Chinese civilisation and they're backing it up with just as many scientific, academic "proofs" from both international community and even within China. I see no difference between your thesis and their supremacist one. Sorry, but under these circumstances, I, and Chinese people, don't trust any foreigners writing OUR history. The only reliable reference to us is our chronicles recorded in different dynasties.

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 07:20 PM

I think, if I had the choice of accepting the facts of young Chinese woman or two renowned Chinese scholars and a team of Chinese geneticists. I think I'll go with the latter

I'm sure you probably still think the earth is flat...

Sinpong, in this case, You can’t argue with genetics…

:cool:

sinoping

01-11-2005, 07:25 PM

Sinpong, You can’t argue with genetics…

:cool:
Ya. Humans and monkeys are genetically close. It doesn't mean we should call them brothers.

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 07:28 PM

Now you're getting silly...

sinoping

01-11-2005, 07:39 PM

Whatever. Whenever I rebutted, you just ignored and continued to post your own stuff. :D I still can't forget you guys call Huangdi "Hu Nak Kunte". And some of you insisted that scientists opened Qin Shihuang's tomb and found he was black. I was just in Xi'an 4 months ago. I paid visit to Qin Shihuang's Mausoleum and it was never opened. I don't need to pay attention to your self-proclaimed "science".

sinoping

01-11-2005, 07:47 PM

Sun Ship

01-11-2005, 07:52 PM

Sekhemu

01-11-2005, 07:59 PM

Oh, and I've read the Chinese poems which you claimed to have indications of African ancestry. The truth is, there's none. Of course, you and the people who wrote the article have never read them, yet you pulled it out in the thin air. And again, you ignored. You've provided so many false and inconsistent arguments yet you call those academic and wish I could believe in them?

He's provided you with all the documentation you need sista, but you still don't come up with anything to refute what he's said. So the question is, where is your proof that what these scholars say is a lie?

Just wondering

sinoping

01-11-2005, 08:01 PM

Kwang-Chih Chang

1931-2001

Kwang-Chih Chang, an anthropologist and archaeologist from China. He is a specialist in Far East Asian prehistory. Mr. Chang was born in Beijing, China. In 1950, he enrolled as a freshman student in the Department of Anthropology at National Taiwan University. Four years later, he completed a bachelor thesis on Lungshan Culture. Chang moved to the United States in 1955.He had the best training opportunity to study anthropology and earned a Ph.D. program at Harvard University. Later, he taught at both Yale University and Harvard from 1961 to 1977.
See?
Why don't you tell me when was Huangdi ever called "Hu Nak Kinte" in any primary sources? Why did the "scientists" claim that they opened Qin Shihuang's coffin and found his structure was Black when I saw it myself recently? Why should I believe in your "archaeologists" who told me to refer to "Book of Odes" when there's no valid evidence whatsoever? Why should I believe in you when you have never checked your own arguments? Why should I believe in Blacks more when Whites are using the same arguments?

sinoping

01-11-2005, 08:02 PM

He's provided you with all the documentation you need sista, but you still don't come up with anything to refute what he's said. So the question is, where is your proof that what these scholars say is a lie?
I've actually come up with argument and my sources. Do people here ever read my posts? Or you just selectively read what you want to read.

sinoping

01-11-2005, 08:04 PM

Sun Ship, since you believe in Chinese "scientists" and "archaeologists" so much, why don't you believe those who do not agree with your "Black Chinese" theory, and they number way more than a few rotten ones you listed.

jamesfrmphilly

01-11-2005, 10:04 PM

ms ping thing, do you believe that man originated in Africa or not?
yes or no?

sinoping

01-11-2005, 11:05 PM

ms ping thing, do you believe that man originated in Africa or not?
yes or no?
I've repeated many times before, I guess I'll just do it again. Yes, I do.

jamesfrmphilly

01-11-2005, 11:36 PM

I've repeated many times before, I guess I'll just do it again. Yes, I do.
then welcome, sister. :congrats:

Sun Ship

01-12-2005, 12:06 AM

The excerpt from the Book of Odes that Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A. is referring to in the previously posted, has been printed below, but first I will reprint the article in question:

A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC
CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA
By Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A.

The Hong Kong Naturalist, August 1939, p. 188-189,:

III. ANCESTORS OF YIN TRIBE WERE BLACK.

There are two symbols in the script on the " shell and bone " (Figure i, a and b), which the Yin tribe worshipped as their ancestors. In some of our old books, one of these symbols was translated as (*).Later on, we find two books Shih Tze and Huai Nan Tze both of which explained that the character (*); meant a blackskinned person. Shih Tze was written in the 3rd century B.C., and Huai Nan Tze in the 2nd century B.C. Also, in the Book of Odes ( 國風 ),
there is a poem named Ch'ang Fa ( 長發 ); it says that the ist ancestor of Yin Dynasty was a "Black King" ( 玄王 ).

Here is the following excerpt from the Book of Odes:

Section IV — 頌 Odes of the temple and the Altar

Chapter 5 — 商頌 Sacrificial odes of Shang

Profoundly wise were [the lords of] Shang,
And long had there appeared the omens [of their dignity ].
When the waters of the deluge spread vast abroad,
Yu arranged and divided the regions of the land,
And assigned to the exterior great States their boundaries,
With their borders extending all over [the kingdom].
Then the State of Song began to be great,
And God raised up the son [of its daughter], and founded [the Family of] Shang.

The dark king ( 玄王 ) exercised an effective sway.
Charged with a small State, he commanded success ;
Charged with a large State, he commanded success.
He followed his rules of conduct without error ;
Wherever he inspected [the people], they responded [to his instructions].
[Then came] Xiang-tu, all-ardent,
And all [within] the seas, beyond [the middle region], acknowledged his restraints.

玄 = incredible; dark; profound; black

王 = great; king; amir

__note: there is a old Chinese Character that I could not type or paste that is a transliteration for the Shang pictograph for "black-skinned, it's omission is represented by (*).

But, here is a link to Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A. work (this is a 9 page PDF file).

A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/27/2700466.pdf&e=7207)

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

sinoping

01-12-2005, 12:25 AM

玄 = incredible; dark; profound; black
玄 also means obscure and abtruse. In this context, it makes more sense it's describing a mythical or an omnipotent king, not a dark king.

PurpleMoons

01-12-2005, 12:32 AM

Family, you must keep in mind that Sister Sinoping is not here searching for her Ancient cousins. She is here to understand the dynamics of African/African Americans.

You have posted enough information. If she want's to search our connection, she have a point to start. Please stop trying to show Sister Sinoping the blood that runs in her, is of ours also. She is simply not interested in that.

So Sister Sinoping, Please be more specific and tell us, what exactly do you want to understand about the Black race? You are aware of the degenerations that has plague minorities in America. You being a minority, should know of such sterotyping to some degree. I don't recall if you ever said that you were even in America. If I've missed this, would you please be so kind to tell me again? Also If you are in America, I would love to hear about your exprience here and what is your opinion of it?

Please be straight up and tell us, What is it that you really seek to know?

Sun Ship

01-12-2005, 01:03 AM

As I said sinpong, if I had the choice of accepting the facts of young xenophobic Chinese woman or two renowned Chinese scholars and a team of Chinese geneticists. I think I'll go with the latter.

Now, what are you here to do?..tell us what you know about Africa, Black people, Pan Africanism, African History, African American history, "Pure" Chinese history, white folks,etc, etc, etc ...matter of fact what do know about anything.

We are either the student or the specimen, because you know Negroes can't never be the teacher or the observer.

Teach us young lady... we are waiting! :D

Akilah

01-12-2005, 01:39 AM

This thread has been incredibly informative...
Now I know why I see chinese folk that look black
and black folk that look chinese :idea:

:welldone: Brutha Sun Ship and 'erry body else !

Much...
Peace & Love
Akilah :spinstar:

P.S. One of the best chinese food places I've ever eaten at was at a black owned/runned restaurant called Peking Pavillion located in Detroit *LOL*

Kunta_Warrior

01-12-2005, 03:02 AM

Pretty interesting stuff guys and i didnt have time to read thru all 6 pages but honestly i never thought that we had anything to do with chinese bcoz asians look different from black people. i think that yellow people are their own race. funny thing is some whites at Stormfront also said that that Huangdi guy was a whiteboy. but they also call some other russians blacks according to what i have read which dont make much sense considering russian blacks are just as white as other russians. Besides, we have lots of other achievements to be proud of, like zimbabwe empire and other african civilizations and hip-hop (which is populer even among white folks), and not to mention our physical abilitys in sports.
\
multiregional hypothesis, which holds that every region has its own race developing from primitive man, which left Africa some 1 million years ago. << that sounds interesting anyone have information on this? who knows, maybe god even created black and white and chinese people all at different times ;)

Isaiah

01-12-2005, 09:46 AM

Misunderstanding. I have NEVER questioned we all came from Africa. What I've been trying to say is that the ones who remained in Africa consitutes the term "Black", the ones who went to Europe became Europeans, the ones who crossed Siberia became North Asians (Northern Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese), and the ones who took another route into Burma and Southeast Asian were identified as pygmies. It's incorrect to say "Black Chinese".

What do Whites have to do with this? I've seen Whites claiming Chinese civilisation and I found them as absurd as this. It's not like I'm intentionally "looking down" Blacks or trying to hide your accomplishments. I have no special feelings to Whites as I have no special favor in Black.

I didn't say you said modern Chinese were Black. I said, they found skeletons from a neolithic Chinese cultural site of Hongshan, and they look like modern northern Chinese. If modern Chinese people aren't Black, as acknowledge by yourself, then why would the Hongshan culture, whose people look exactly like modern Chinese, be Black?
Maybe it's because you're an African descent and you find this convincing. As I said, I've seen Whites claiming Chinese civilisation and they're backing it up with just as many scientific, academic "proofs" from both international community and even within China. I see no difference between your thesis and their supremacist one. Sorry, but under these circumstances, I, and Chinese people, don't trust any foreigners writing OUR history. The only reliable reference to us is our chronicles recorded in different dynasties.

SinoPing, I accept your explanations of where you are on this, and I will move on... I do agree that the accomplishments in culture and history are to be attributed to those cultures which achieved them - regardless of where early man came from... I honestly acknowledge that I get major annoyed too, when I see African people seeming to claim stuff that really aint ours... Why do I become annoyed at that???

Well, we've achieved enough that we aint gotta put a claim on everything, but more importantly, that kind of stuff is just so EURO!!! ****, man, we act just like that devil sometimes... If ya Black and Ya Proud, that's annoying(smile!)

SInoPing, keep on posting, and don't let anyone turn ya round... I respect folk who don't turn tail and run... And Black folks, stop acting like a freakin' mob... That's Euro, and its' mad cowardly...

Peace!
Isaiah

Kunta_Warrior

01-12-2005, 11:43 AM

hi yall. i talked to this one guy in my dorm, hes korean and hes an anthropology major and east asian studies minor. he said that 'negrito' doesn't mean black coz those names are fuzzy and were created by racist whites in the first place, and that 'negrito' can mean dark skinned indians, south east asians, and malaysians depending on who wrote those books and over time the word negrito became fuzzy. i think he said that the tanned chinese are mixed with austranelian (?) or something like that according to what he read.

btw, sista sinoping, i read somethin in high school about chinese sailors in africa. you know anything about that?

Sun Ship

01-12-2005, 01:35 PM

Sun Ship

01-12-2005, 01:44 PM

Brother Isaiah, I have a lot of respect for many of the opinions that you have posted so far, but for you to come to this thread and discussion, and then misconstrue the context of this thread is artfully disingenuous and ridiculous.

NOWHERE…NOWHERE, in this thread, has anybody tried to take credit, for the development of modern Chinese artistic culture, philosophy or academic history, and then give it to Africans!!

The story of China belongs to the modern Chinese to interpret and interpolate as they see fit, that is why, I respectfully used the academic works of astute Chinese scholars and the scientific finds of Chinese geneticists from Fudan University's Genetics Department and the Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project, let alone articles published in two Chinese newspapers! I also referred to information published by the China Internet Information Center in Beijing for further verification of my facts. Your accusations implying that I, or anyone in this thread, are trying to covetously circumvent the accomplishments of Chinese people, for some type of "Johnny-come-lately" African revisionism, are almost insulting.

Sinpong, has tried to cunningly disregard the scholarship of her own people! If I would’ve done that, I would have been deemed racist. In, the newspaper accounts presented, it was the common Asian tribesmen who remembered the Black people and on the other end, the geneticist backed up their claims up, of an African presence in China. I could’ve referred to works of many African-centered scholars (Diop, Rashidi) to establish the validity of my scholarship, but I knew Sister sinoping xenophobia would have immediately balked, and she would’ve perceived their works as part of an All-Negro conspiracy to delaminate Chinese people from their culture.

I know many Chinese people, would like to believe that they popped-out of nowhere, without predecessors or any continuous linkage to prehistory, but in the realm of science, fortunately, that type of reasoning has fallen on it’s face,. This isolationist belief about Chinese history and culture may work in some context, but it becomes ridiculous, when put it in the broader context of world history. THE EUROPEANS WANTED TO BELIEVE THE SAME THING ABOUT GREECE AND ROME!

Being the first people to walk the earth (Brother Isaiah, I guess you will agree, we are the first homo sapiens?) was a difficult supposition for most people to except, but has been made a very comfortable imposition, as long as we are always viewed as a primitive people having nothing to do with modern invention, culture or civilization.

Brother Isaiah, you should know this, brother!

Everyone like sinoping, are comfortable with their view of an original African (Black people) presence on the earth, as long as it doesn’t mess with their racist views of their own historical beginnings and culturalization.

Sinoping wants unity and sisterhood, but at the same time, if she has to except the fact there is but one genome, one beginning, one world culture and the primal or original construct is Black!… than she is disappointed and agitated. And Brother Isaiah, to agree with her disposition, void of facts and/or reasoning,… Brother I’m just surprised at you, that’s all.

This sister, sinoping, used the word “creatures” to refer to another group of humans and tried to unwittingly use the genetic similarities of apes and humans to refute my facts and then insidiously tried to clean it up. Amazing…just simply amazing.

I mean....just simply amazing.

Peace,

Brother Sun:cool:

indya

01-12-2005, 02:56 PM

[/QUOTE]Sinoping wants unity and sisterhood, but at the same time, if she has to except the fact there is but one genome, one beginning, one world culture and the primal or original construct is Black.[QUOTE]

Just to clear up something. I have found many articles about the first human skeletal remains found in Africa dating back 2 million yrs. I haven't found anything about remains found that old anywhere else.

From my reading, the archiologists can reconstruct what the 2 mill. yr old person may have looked like, but not the skin color or hair texture and color.
Taking this into consideratoin it's very possible the original humans didn't look like africans of today?

Obviously sometime before written history humans went through color changes or we wouldn't have Asians, Europeans, Indians and Africans.

Isaiah

01-12-2005, 03:22 PM

Sekhemu

01-12-2005, 04:52 PM

I think the perception that Sinoping was being ganged up on, was the result of her being defensive in light of the evidence presented to her, and her refusal to even acknowledge the work done by her own native scholars and scientist.

A few members tried to get her to respond to a number of questions, but were probably frustrated by her posture of claiming to want to learn about black people, but rejecting the work and scholarship done by the very people she came to learn about. THis seemed a tad schizophrenic to me. But I still got love for the sistah. I welcome her presence here

Sun Ship

01-12-2005, 04:59 PM

My Brother Isaiah, no apologies needed, you reposted eloquently and I humble myself to what you explained. I am not upset with Sister sinoping and that is why I always tried to emphasis the endearing term “sister”, for in fact, her presence is welcomed here and she should always have a place here. Now, I do have a lot of issues, with how she has tried to rebut my presentation of materials, but still, I think good debate should be challenging.

I was looking for cultural commonality not to covet, displace or intellectually destroy, the long history of contributions that the modern and ancient Chinese have brought to the world. For, we know, that Jazz didn’t just materialize out of thin air, in New Orleans and there is ancestral continuity that is directly connected to continental Africa. As I believe Baraka once said, “we just didn’t get off the ship singing, St. James Infirmary”. Matter of fact, there are some excellent Asian Jazz musicians today that have brought many contributions to our music. John Coltrane studied music from all over the world and skillfully imbued his sound with the knowledge he attained. There are many similarities between Asian and African musical scales, but no one argues (no one sane) whether or not, Jazz is the cultural expression or spiritual invocations of African Americans.

The African cultural psyche has always accepted the interpolating infusions of others and in reality; the world is really like that in general. But, modern anthropologist founded their field of endeavor, on an isolationist theory, in order to control the image of White supremacy and the “so-called” superior uniqueness of Europeanism. Now my argument is, nobody should adopt this idea (isolationism) to develop a defensive position, in order to protect his or her cultural sovereignty. Isolationism is why people of color cannot find common ground, today. The western world has so damaged our individual cultures and histories that now, we are convinced there was no functional international community existing before the “excepted” historical documentations, “so-called” discoveries and theories cosigned by Europeans. Any other concept of the ancient world is usually debunked, ridiculed and scoffed at, by not only Europeans but also people of color, the very ones who have been devastated by European expansionism and hegemony.

Let’s be reasonable, what kind of gratification or reward would European or Chinese academics and scientists receive from presenting their ideas of early Black inhabitants and civilizations in ancient Asia (now China)? It was the Chinese scholastic community, who found and exposed to the world these Black ancestors who they discovered while searching for genetic continuity to complement China’s cultural history.

Even as we deal with African culture and history, there should always be a respect for individual cultures and each people’s historical uniqueness. And I have the highest respect for sinpong’s culture and her love for it. Enough said.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

Kunta_Warrior

01-12-2005, 06:26 PM

Hey Kunta warrior....I welcome you, but all of your claims are fraudulent and wanting. I'm very suspect of your name and your true ethnicity. Post again, when you have something intelligent to say...backed by research and facts.

Brother Sun :cool:
sorry, brother sun, i'm only repeating what that guy told me. i don't know if hes right or not coz i don't know anything about that topic. just for the record, i dont really believe in evolution that much.

Sun Ship

01-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Sister Sinopong, here is a link to a thread that might give you some insight. Also Kunta Warrior, the Chinese sailors you were talking about, are also mentioned in this thread and are put into a proper historical context.

Link here:
Bumblebee: The AfroAsian Online Community

AFRICANS & ASIANS
Breaking Boundaries

by Dr. Lisa Li-Shen Yun (http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31704)

Peace,

Brother Sun:cool:

Isaiah

01-14-2005, 02:46 PM

http://print.google.com/print?id=tTyGNgnWWGgC&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Drunoko%2Brashidi&pg=10&sig=6ECZrh9WcjHbLlcUrIiqzPCAgYg

This is the Web Address for Runoko Rashidi's book on The African Presence in Early Asia... Mr. Rashidi is a noted and respected expert and scholar in this field of study...

Peace!
Isaiah

Sun Ship

01-16-2005, 05:35 PM

One can agree or disagree with this post and the corresponding link to the entire web page, but I still found the excerpts below, more than revealing.

Race is an Illusion, Racism is Not

Race is an Illusion, Racism is Not

Bevin Chu

[B]Bevin Chu, an American architect and author currently living and working in Taipei and Shanghai. Chu is the son of Tsing-kang Chu, a retired high-ranking diplomat with the Republic of China government on Taiwan.
July 21, 2004

Executive Summary: Race is an illusion, racism is not. Race is an illusion because all hominid species besides Homo sapiens died out 30,000 years ago. Therefore every human being alive today belongs to the same race. Racism unfortunately, is all too real, because racism lingers in the hearts of men.

"Racism is not only socially divisive, but also scientifically incorrect. We are all descendants of people who lived in Africa recently. We are all Africans under the skin. " -- Spencer Wells, Population Geneticist

Bevin Chu continues

Multiregional Continuity
The competing alternative to "Out of Africa" is "Multiregional Continuity." Multiregional Continuity, it must be noted, offers cold comfort to white supremacists. Multiregionalists agree that we are all Africans. Multiregionalists merely believe that man migrated out of Africa one million years ago in the form of Homo erectus, rather than 60,000 years ago in the form of Homo sapiens. Either way, the human race is still the African race, and we are still all Africans under the skin.

Race is an Illusion, Racism is Not

Bevin Chu refers to this quote from a biography of Adolf Hitler

"I know perfectly well that in the scientific sense there is no such thing as race. As a politician I need an idea which enables the order which has hitherto existed on a historic basis to be abolished and an entirely new order enforced and given an intellectual basis. And for this purpose the idea of race serves me well."
-- Adolf Hitler, quoted in John Toland's biography "Adolf Hitler"

Here is what Bevin saids about himself...

…As anyone surfing this website knows, I am Chinese. I therefore am the descendant of black Africans who left Africa 35,000 years ago and settled in eastern Asia.

Those who harbor irrational prejudice toward their fellow human beings in the belief they are "members of another race" are acting out of scientific ignorance. Racists may believe they are directing their hatred at "members of another race," but they aren't. There is no "other race" to direct their hatred at. The racists therefore are directing their hatred at members of their own race.

Here is a very interesting observation made by Bevin Chu...

Jet Li, a Man of the African Race, and the late Aliyah, [is] a Woman of the African Race
(they both acted in the movie - Romeo Must Die)

[I]Maybe Sister sinoping can explain what is stated below...

Taiwan Independence Fascism and Ethnic Cleansing

…Lee Teng-hui, Chen Shui-bian, and Annette Lu appeal to a fictitious, concocted, ahistorical "Taiwanese" racial identity, and why their appeals have become shriller and more blatant since Chen and Lu's so-called "reelection" on 3/20/2004.

Annette Lu is the Taiwan independence moment's enfant terrible. Lu is notorious for saying out loud what other members of the Taiwan independence nomenklatura are thinking but don't have the guts to make explicit.

Lu recently scapegoated Taiwan's Aborigines, blaming them for overdevelopment, deforestation, soil erosion, and flooding in Taiwan's central mountain range. Aboriginal victims of Tropical Storm Mindulle, Lu declared, deserved no sympathy. They should be shipped off to Central and South America for damaging Taiwan's ecology.

Annette Lu is not the first Taiwan independence leader to play the race card. That distinction belongs to Lee Teng-hui. During the 90s, Lee began suggesting that "mainlanders," so-called, be expelled from Taiwan and sent back to "China," the Taiwan independence Quislings' idiosyncratic term for mainland China.

Annette Lu however, has upped the ante. Lu has recommended that Aborigines be relocated en masse to Central and South America, leaving the island in the hands of those whom Taiwan independence fascists designate as real "Taiwanese," i.e., themselves.

Does the term "ethnic cleansing" ring a bell? It should. It describes perfectly what Lu and her fellow Taiwan independence fascists have in mind for anyone not one of them.

Here are some final thougths of Bevin Chu, contributed to Jefferson Fish, psychologist:

Race: The Final Frontier

"What is race? It is a biologically meaningless category. It is a cultural term that Americans use to describe what a person's ancestry is. But biologically the human species does not have categories. It just has variations as one travels around the world.''
-- Jefferson Fish, psychologist, St. John's University, New York

I guess the Chinese people are just a variation of Africans, after all. :D

Here's the link: Race is an Illusion, Racism is Not (http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/race_is_an_illusion_racism_is_not.htm)

DreamFunk

02-18-2005, 01:58 PM

Sun Ship

02-20-2005, 09:57 PM

Saying that the Ancient Chinese were "black" is really no better than saying that the Ancient Egyptians were "white".

"Negritos" (a term of pseudo-science btw) are and have always been a simple people, and they continue to live in their old hunter-gatherer ways to this day. They are not Chinese, nor are they the founders of Chinese civilization.

Besides, these Southeast Asian "negritos" really have no more to do with Africans than any other people on our earth.

Either you didn’t really read this thread thoroughly or you are just suffering from an inability to comprehend knowledge and research. Your posted ramblings are unintelligible and wanting.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship :cool:

DreamFunk

02-20-2005, 11:02 PM

Either you didn’t really read this thread thoroughly or you are just suffering from an inability to comprehend knowledge and research. Your posted ramblings are unintelligible and wanting.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship :cool:

"Ancient Black Chinese?"

"The Africans or blacks that founded civilization in China..."

^^^There is nothing hard to understand about that. Neither Europeans nor Africans had anything to do with the founding of "China". The Chinese civilization is an innovation of the Chinese, and anything else is ludicrous to say the least....that's all I'm saying.

And some have spoken of genetics...SE Asian Negritos and Oceanics are more closely related to other Asians genetically than they are to any Africans.

Sun Ship

02-21-2005, 11:52 AM

DreamFunk...DreamFunk, You need to wake up and stop “dreaming up” your responses to suppositions that were never introduced by me personally, in this post. Let me repeat to you what I repeatedly tried to relay to sister sinpong. I NEVER suggested that Africans, ancient or modern, should “TAKE CREDIT” for modern Chinese culture or scholarship. Regardless of what you have posted (without evidentiary backing), it was the Chinese academic and scientific community who implied a Black or phenotypically africoid presence in their history. It was the unabashed reference by a Chinese scholar, implying that an important king and his people during the Shang dynasty were Black. It were the Chinese geneticist who discovered that the MODERN Chinese were the descendants of the MODERN African (Africans, Out Of Africa!...not the South Pacific) just 30,000 years ago.

I personally attacked the usage of the term negrito! Though the term, negrito cannot be ignored when searching historical records, it’s use as a proper translation of the Chinese syntax and proper description of short stature Africans is very subjective and non-scientific.

If the MODERN Chinese descended from MODERN Africans just 30,000 years ago and the origins of modern Chinese culture are conservatively 6,000 to 7,000 years old (Shang Dynasty - 2,000 years old), than to ignore ANY type of African “connection” to modern Chinese culture and/or history is racist, xenophobic and void scientific scrutiny and academic merit. And to compare the historical record and scientific evidence of the -first people on earth (Africans) with the claims of the “Johnny-come-lately’s” (the Caucasians) is outrageous. If you like it or not, modern Africans are the original Homo sapiens (modern man) who populated the earth. To imply that the Chinese didn’t receive ANY of their ancestral cultural from their most recent and direct genetic ancestors (modern Africans) IS to act like Caucasians; who believe that ancient Egyptians received their high culture and knowledge from "non-Africans" or “non-humanoid Greys from another universe". Once again the African is discounted and removed from all academic and pseudo-academic suppositions and historical continuity.

Like I said DreamFunk, you didn’t really read this thread thoroughly.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship :cool:

Moorfius

02-22-2005, 03:23 PM

It has been said, "you can't teach a person any thing, you can only help them find within them self." And also said in another way but meaning the same thing, "You can lead a horse to (Knowlege) water but you can't make him or her drink". We have some of our people who are like crabs in a berral, don't want to get out and don't wan't to see any one else get out, and get balegerant (Mad) when they hear any one talking about (Black) salvation and liberation. They will come among "Us" who are sincere about life and do what the enemy tought them to do and that is try and distroy what is being build up.
When one does any serious study, one will learn the truth that the Black Man and the Black Woman is the founders of all Civilizations all over the earth. To take "China" for example, The Chinise government knows the truth about their history, that their first civilizing dynisty was from Africa then called the Shang or Chang Dynisty. The list of historical facts goes on and on. Now we should all remember, the only reason a Black man or Black woman will take exception to these facts is due to a need for them to include the Enemy "who has Lied to the world about every thing and every body" into the salvation cinereo of the African People, and there is no room for the open Enemy who some of us have fallen Madly in Love with and has become Crazy. We have to under stand that these Negros are out of their Minds, perhaps because they have a Enemy for a Mate or what ever the reason. There can be no compromise in the end with any thing that comes between African Freedom, Justice, Equality and Peace, Nothing. Every one reading this knows that in order for "White-Suprimecy" to live, it has to have African's as it's Foundation. We African's will always have to give up Freedom for so-called white folks to Rule Over Us. "They can't do it any other way", They (White People) can not live in peace with any one of color, not even with them self. If they are not at war with people of color, they make war with them self. 6,000 thousand years of history is Proof of this, what more do we need, all we have to do is read and stop trying to protect (Massa).
Brothers and Sisters
Sincerely
Moorfius

sinoping

02-23-2005, 02:24 AM

Haha, whatever. Some people here are quite fixed with the idea that the world is conspirating against them and trying to diminish their "achievements", and we're all too narrow-minded to accept the "facts". :)
Humor me. Even though many "evidences" you guys brought up were proven to be invalid, some people still are not prepared to realize. Find truth in facts, not in ideologies. Your ideology of empowerment of Africans is good, but many people here are streching it too far.

Sun Ship

02-23-2005, 09:01 AM

Sinoping, YOU like most Caucasians have a problem with modern Africans being the first homo sapiens (modern man) on the planet earth and the ancestors of all mankind.

It is YOU Sinoping who have presented NO academic or scientific facts and YOUR arguments have been full ideology, posturing and unwitting xenophobia.

You think like most whites, who believe that just because they say so…then it is true. And until they (Whites) believe or say anything different, everything else is untrue. Since YOU as a person of Chinese ethnicity could not intelligently refute the works of YOUR OWN (Chinese) academic and scientific community, you have spent the majority of your time castigating and mocking the validity of your OWN scientist and scholars.

You came here to study African people and have become studied yourself.

Sinoping, if it weren’t for a dark-skinned phenotypic sub-Saharan modern African leaving Africa 30,000 years ago, you and all Chinese culture and history would have never existed. And for a racist, xenophobic and draconian thinking Asian young lady to accept this, it must be very painful indeed.

You need to relax and give up on your rants and raves; you are starting to show yourself for what you truly are. You need to go to a White racist forum and introduce yourself and study Whites. Will they accept you as friend or foe…I wonder?

Peace,

Sun Ship:cool:

sinoping

02-23-2005, 07:26 PM

I never said homo sapien didn't come from Africa. You just sound as just because homo sapien came from Africa, therefore Africans invented all civilisations. How about monkeys founded Chinese civilisation because we were once all Australopithecus afarensis? How far do you want to go back? These civilisations, which have achieved more than what modern Africans ever done, do not owe Africans anything. When homo sapien travelled out of Africa, the populace diverged and survived on their own way. The modern Africans were the ones who stayed in Africa, while the ones who travelled to Asia became Asians and ones to Europe became Europeans. The civilizations of these other groups did not belong to modern African entity. Those naked Ethiopians had(have) nothing to do with the Chinese who were building the great wall. Men have diverged, period. Chinese civilization ( or any other civilization) is not something modern Africans should lay their claims on.
By the way, I've rebutted many of your "historical" arguments yet you show no respect to it. There were negrito presence in China, so what? At Hongshan culture site (one of the earliest neolithic sites in China) in northeast China, we also found several 5'10, light skinned, flat-faced, small-eyed people who resembled modern Chinese. ( in northwest China, we also found Turk-looking people. Big deal)

Haha, everyone who does not agree to your extremely Afrocentrist philosophy must be a racist.
I think some people here should spend more time focusig and studying the beauty of cultures in Africa, instead of claiming other people's civilisation to cure their inferiority complex.

Sun Ship

02-23-2005, 08:22 PM

I knew if I challenged your xenophobic ranting and misguided impositions, you would crawl out of your comfort zone of platitudes and false humility and show the African Americans in this forum how ignorant and racist you really are and what little you know about African civilization. Obviously, you know very little about yourself and have an inability to interpret the scientific findings of your own academic community. You could of intelligently defended your point-of-view (still absent of facts and research) but like a true racist you have tried to demean Africans and African culture, in order to bolster your own cultural reality.

My only hope is that others will read your malicious and racist diatribes and rebuke your yellow supremacist views.

All European, African and Asians scholars know that those “naked Ethiopians” you alluded to, were the originators and forerunners of the spiritual, intellectual and cultural constructs of Ancient Egyptian civilization, which pre-dates the Chinese culture by thousands of years (and I’m sure you probably believe the Black Ancient Egyptians were really white Semitics).

Your knowledge is wanting and your diatribes are without merit. You need to get out more. There is a whole world that is not white or yellow you need to learn about. Stop being an isolationist and stop getting your views about Africans from the media, white people, other racist Chinese and the cartoons. Or maybe you’re watching to many rap videos and those rap lyrics have gotten your panties all in a knot.

Relax, stay ignorant and be happy.

Peace out,
Brother Sun:cool:

PS: Learn how to read...there are no facts in fortune cookies. :lol:

sinoping

02-24-2005, 02:21 AM

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/egypt_nubia.html

AUM

02-24-2005, 04:59 AM

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/egypt_nubia.html

That site is an ABOMINATION! You should be ashamed of posting that garbage site. It must suck knowing that the Gods of your Chinese ancestors look like me==>http://www.trinicenter.com/WorldNews/buddha.htm
http://suzar.com/BOTW/BOTW-ch1c-pages5-6.html

Sun Ship

02-24-2005, 10:35 AM

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/egypt_nubia.html

This is laughable…everybody knows that Carleton S. Coon was a white racist… He is the most cited researcher of the web forum, Stormfront (a white racist web site). They love quoting Coon. Man, Sinoping you just pulled out your (kkk) hood, with this link. I didn’t know that a young Chinese woman posting at an all-Black web site would be enthused by such racist and antiquated science. Don’t you know that Coon believes in the evolutionary superiority of the white race? You obviously have no respect for Africans at all. All of your recent rebuttals have been racist and condescending.

You were welcomed here and could have learned something that would’ve altered your understanding, but you brought your own suppositions and prejudices with you…I’m sure the only thing that attracted you to this site is your superfluous and shallow interest in African and African American culture and history (i.e., dance, singing, rapping and other noticeable ritualisms. You came as the student and as soon as you became unsatisfied with the lesson you tried to pronounce yourself as the teacher.

The only reason you have probably not been banned is because you are either being ignored by the moderators or you have been given special privilege because you’re not white…or are you?? Maybe that is not your picture in the photo forum. :lol: Let’s see what you said about yourself in that forum, quote: “This pic is a lil old…I'm ugly, don't laugh.” No sinoping, it's not about outward beauty…but remember this old adage, “beauty may be skin deep, but ugliness goes all the way down to the bone” And you have exemplified this piece of wisdom thoroughly.

Peace-out,

Sun Ship :cool:

indya

02-24-2005, 02:57 PM

That site is an ABOMINATION! You should be ashamed of posting that garbage site. It must suck knowing that the Gods of your Chinese ancestors look like me

The sight isn't an abomination. Sinoping has been stating that for every one web sight about ancient black chinese there is another that refutes it. This web sight is an example of that.

The sight you posted can be refuted also.

Most scientists agree that people started migrating out of Africa about 200,000 years ago. They can reconstruct the skulls and have an idea what the person looked like, but not skin color, hair color or hair texture. The scientists arn't saying that ancient people, even though they came out of Africa, look like modern africans.

Sekhemu

02-24-2005, 04:43 PM

The sight isn't an abomination. Sinoping has been stating that for every one web sight about ancient black chinese there is another that refutes it. This web sight is an example of that.

The sight you posted can be refuted also.

Most scientists agree that people started migrating out of Africa about 200,000 years ago. They can reconstruct the skulls and have an idea what the person looked like, but not skin color, hair color or hair texture. The scientists arn't saying that ancient people, even though they came out of Africa, look like modern africans.

The difference here is that the information on the Chinese was documented by chinese. The one refuting the black origins of Khemet And Nubia was done by a white man, a racist in fact.

Sinoping is obviously unaware of the genetic research done on the Mummies in Khemet by Cheik Anta Diop, and others, that proves beyond a doubt that our ancestors in Khemet were black africans.

Indya is it your contention that they were white?

Kingpin

02-24-2005, 08:01 PM

The difference here is that the information on the Chinese was documented by chinese. The one refuting the black origins of Khemet And Nubia was done by a white man, a racist in fact.

Sinoping is obviously unaware of the genetic research done on the Mummies in Khemet by Cheik Anta Diop, and others, that proves beyond a doubt that our ancestors in Khemet were black africans.

Indya is it your contention that they were white?

If you look at "genetic" research you will find that we are all the same. Yes there is some mild differences in DNA in different families but ultimatley we are geneticly similar if not the same so I dont see where you are going with that argument!!

I dont think Indya said they were white I think she said we dont know what they looked like.

I think it is rediculas to be bickering over what someone looked like 200,000 or even 6,000 years ago!! What exactly is the point!!!!! :grouphug:

indya

02-24-2005, 08:13 PM

The difference here is that the information on the Chinese was documented by chinese. The one refuting the black origins of Khemet And Nubia was done by a white man, a racist in fact.

Sinoping is obviously unaware of the genetic research done on the Mummies in Khemet by Cheik Anta Diop, and others, that proves beyond a doubt that our ancestors in Khemet were black africans.

Indya is it your contention that they were white?

White? I never said white.

I said people started moving out of Africa 200,000 yrs ago and as they moved and were isolated they changed in apperance, obviously or you wouldn't have whites, asians or indians. I also stated that scientists have no idea what modern man looked like, they have a skull which they can reconstruct to find out facial features, but no skin color, hair color or hair texture.

Sinoping has stated their were blacks in china and light skinned people, archiology has proved this. No argument there either.

I dont understand why Sunship is trying to claim responsibility for chinese civilization though. Since by the time people had evolved enough to start the chinese civilization they had changed apperance and looked like modern chinese.

Sekhemu

02-24-2005, 10:10 PM

If you look at "genetic" research you will find that we are all the same. Yes there is some mild differences in DNA in different families but ultimatley we are geneticly similar if not the same so I dont see where you are going with that argument!!

I dont think Indya said they were white I think she said we dont know what they looked like.

I think it is rediculas to be bickering over what someone looked like 200,000 or even 6,000 years ago!! What exactly is the point!!!!! :grouphug:

it's not about bickering it's about someone discrediting evidence without doing the proper research. We do know what our ancestors looked like in Khemet. Sun Ship gave all the pertinent references and sources. Chinese sources regarding their own history. So the point is if you're gonna have a debate you have to be intellectually honest. particuliarly if you claim to come here to learn about black people

sinoping

02-24-2005, 11:05 PM

Lol. Chinese sources regarding its own history?
He claimed Huangdi (Yellow Emperor)'s name was Hu Nak Kinte. No Chinese sources ever stated that. Not that he has provided any anyway. He claimed that the skeleton of Qin Shihuang in his tomb resembled a Black. The fact is I went back to his mausoleum in Xi'an just last summer and his tomb was never even opened. And they're not planning to open it in the next 5 decades or so. He claimed that the character 玄 Xuan and 黎 Li mean "Black", when in fact, they don't. He's writing something about a language which I speak and which he has no knowledge of.
Of course, I've rebutted already, but whatever I said must be from Chinese xenophobic, racist propaganda and people here tended to ignore it as it didn't fit their Afrocentrist delusion. As for scientific "evidences" he provided, I'll just say they're "abomination", whatever the author is I don't care. :) At least the intellectual community isn't going to write essays dedicated to "Chinese are not Black". It's like wasting time trying to argue with fundamentally invalid statements. Until Afrocentrism is ever taken seriously, then we'll talk about intellectual honesty. Of course, since the world is conspirating against African people and their achievements, then let's ignore the intellectual community as well.
I can find essays and books on "facts" about African civilisations that are completely incompatible to your ideologies if I absolutely want to. Perhaps you need to get out more and realize how ridiculous your "scientific evidences" really are. Well, to you, everything other than Afrocentrism must be abomination.

sinoping

02-24-2005, 11:39 PM

Yet another troll.

Sunship, you see what I'm saying? You have White people who use "historical" and "scientific" evidences to claim Chinese civilisation while Blacks use the same context. Why should I trust Blacks more than I do to Whites, or vice versa. To you, your Afrocentrism is the sole truth, but to them, their Eurocentric revisionism is the truth.
Humor me. I'm just going to stay with my "xenophobic, racist Chinese propaganda". :)

Sun Ship

02-24-2005, 11:56 PM

Kingpin

02-27-2005, 02:46 PM

I see that sinoping has a friend named 1488Viktoria. A white barbarian has entered the discussion. I guess Stormfront is not online tonight. :lol: 1488Viktoria you probably need to post at Caveman.com. :lol:

Let me ignore this Neanderthal and get to my real reason for posting.

Brother Sekhemu, it is interesting that indya could read sinoping’s racist ranting and distorted racist analogies and then use her righteous indignations to try to bring clarity and accreditation to sinopings post and view her demented reasoning as a proper rebuttal to my documentation. Sinoping used the out-dated research of one of the most racist scholars known to anthropological science. I sure indya knows very little about the works and theories of Carleton S. Coon.

It was the scientific work of Chinese geneticist that revealed that the modern Chinese were the descendants of modern Africans. Indya, what about this you don’t understand?

I find it absurd that sinoping used the antiquated research of a white racist scholar to refute the modern DNA analysis and factual summations of her OWN (Chinese) academic community.

This is unbelievable.

I really wish sinoping could understand the research of HER OWN PEOPLE and I wish some Negroes would read before they post.

To know what a group of people look like is possible thorough forensic archeology that consider the cephalic index through anthropometrics. You are phenotypically African because of many reason…not just skin color and hair texture.

Oh By the way, sinoping it was Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien, M.A. who said that the 1st ancestor of the Yin Dynasty was a "Black King" ( 玄王 ), and I think he probably has a better grip on Chinese etymology and syntax than you do.

here is a nice thread discussing this very topic

http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/27/2700466.pdf

Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien did most of his research in the 1930's by todays standards this is a litle antiquated. I am not going to argue with anyone on the fact that there were blacks in south China because they were there, however; from Prof. Wei chu-Hsien research the Modern Chinese culture came about from the mixing of a number of other cultures and races. including Black, White and Asian. He states that many of the intelectual aspects of the current Chinese came from the Yin tribe and that is where the Blacks were located, but he did not say the Yin tribe was "black".

China as a whole was a melting pot of a number of cultures and a mixing of Northern, Western, and Southern tribes.. If you want the names of each tribe I can list them for you later. :read:

Sun Ship

02-27-2005, 03:30 PM

here is a nice thread discussing this very topic

http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/27/2700466.pdf

Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien did most of his research in the 1930's by todays standards this is a litle antiquated. I am not going to argue with anyone on the fact that there were blacks in south China because they were there, however; from Prof. Wei chu-Hsien research the Modern Chinese culture came about from the mixing of a number of other cultures and races. including Black, White and Asian. He states that many of the intelectual aspects of the current Chinese came from the Yin tribe and that is where the Blacks were located, but he did not say the Yin tribe was "black".

China as a whole was a melting pot of a number of cultures and a mixing of Northern, Western, and Southern tribes.. If you want the names of each tribe I can list them for you later. :read:

This is getting real silly...all over again...

Brother Kingpin, what are you talking about…??

Do you even know what the word ancestor means...???

The actual sub-heading of Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien paper, A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA in the Hong Kong Naturalist is titled, “ANCESTORS OF YIN TRIBE WERE BLACK”!!!

He even assess the Chinese character denoting “black skinned person”!!!

You can’t get any more clearer that that! Now if he refutes his own research later or has been rebutted by some other researchers, that is another thing, but for you to lie and distort the obvious is disingenuous.

Then you talk about how antiquated the research is, but I see you looked right over the presentation of Carleton S. Coons works, presented by the now “banned” Sister sinoping.

Matter of Fact, I presented DNA evidence here, of just a few years ago and it was ignored. So it really doesn’t matter.

By the way you may be confused, the link you offered is just the same link I posted referencing to Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien research, A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA. (a Freudian slip maybe :lol: )

Brother, I already cited the diversity in Chinese ethnicity, but if naming all the different tribes will make you feel better, go ahead. YOU are ALSO skating around the documentation presented here!!

Kingpin

02-27-2005, 04:10 PM

This is getting real silly...all over again...

Brother Kingpin, what are you talking about…??

Do you even know what the word ancestor means...???

The actual sub-heading of Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien paper, A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA in the Hong Kong Naturalist is titled, “ANCESTORS OF YIN TRIBE WERE BLACK”!!!

He even assess the Chinese character denoting “black skinned person”!!!

You can’t get any more clearer that that! Now if he refutes his own research later or has been rebutted by some other researchers, that is another thing, but for you to lie and distort the obvious is disingenuous.

Then you talk about how antiquated the research is, but I see you looked right over the presentation of Carleton S. Coons works, presented by the now “banned” Sister sinoping.

Matter of Fact, I presented DNA evidence here, of just a few years ago and it was ignored. So it really doesn’t matter.

By the way you may be confused, the link you offered is just the same link I posted referencing to Prof. Wei Chu-Hsien research, A SEARCH FOR THE REMAINS OF PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION IN SOUTH-EAST CHINA. (a Freudian slip maybe :lol: )

Brother, I already cited the diversity in Chinese ethnicity, but if naming all the different tribes will make you feel better, go ahead. YOU are ALSO skating around the documentation presented here!!

You my friend have taken alot for granted yourself. I in no way quoted anyone other than Prof. Chu-hsien. I read the entire paper presented on the link. did you?? There was a pargraph about the black yin tribe. I am not going to argue with you over this I was tring to bring to light that the modern Chinese culture is a "MIXTURE" of many diverse cultures and races and not a Single one as you are trying to put forth, but hey if you want to believe that a modern civilization was founded by a single race or culture you go right ahead

Sun Ship

02-27-2005, 05:12 PM

Brother Kingpin, the question is not did I read the entire paper, the question is, have you carefully read this entire thread!!

None of my post, have I really, personally, surmised too much of anything, let alone any of your suppositions alleging I support the theory of a sole African or Black Chinese development of all of China's modern culture. Some of the strongest language or summations concerning a modern Chinese from African origins, came from the web page of a Chinese architect and author by the name of Bevin Chu.

By the way I posed the original title of this thread as a question or query (Ancient Black Chinese?) and asked for intelligent debate and discussion and that is not what I got from racist diatribes of Sister sinoping.

Historically, it has been Chinese thinkers and culturist, (who think like sinoping) who have espoused and propagandized the isolationist, monogenetic view of the Chinese history and the Chinese populace. I have been the one in this thread that has tried to argue against it.

Like I implied, you are here for Sister sinoping, not for the sharing of information.

Peace :cool:

AUM

02-28-2005, 03:00 PM

indya

02-28-2005, 08:05 PM

Excuse me??? Are you suggesting that the ANCIENT carvings of the first BUDDHA statues can be...Refuted?? Are you Sirius?

I checked back on the link you posted, Buddha wasn't the only one mentioned. I stated that your post could be refuted, and it can be.

I never mentioned Buddha, in my post. I was referring to the Greek gods.

Sun Ship

03-01-2005, 01:15 AM

I checked back on the link you posted, Buddha wasn't the only one mentioned. I stated that your post could be refuted, and it can be.

I never mentioned Buddha, in my post. I was referring to the Greek gods.

My work is done in this thread...

Peace Brother Sun :cool:

Moorfius

08-29-2005, 03:35 PM

Hotep

It is well known that the first Royal Families and Dynisties of China were Afrikan. The Shang or Chang are a example of this truth and documented history. The desendents of those times are the living evidence of the Black Chinese who still live in the south of china. However the Chinese government finds this revelation to be some what of an embarisment, to know that their first civilizers to bring culture was the Afrikan. The Afrikan gave the world Civilization, and the Black Afrika is the mother of all civilization.
"People Know Thy Self" note: Budah was and KMT prist who traviled to the East or Asia. All ancient depictions of the man are Black with Kinky hair. Chinese herbal medicine, yoga, martial arts ect. are all origenated from KMT.

Ase`

karmashines

08-29-2005, 09:55 PM

Asians, both Oriental and Native American have facial features similar to African/African Americans. In fact, I have an aunt that looks so 'Asian' that a Korean woman went up to her speaking the language. Also, my grandma, despite being almost as light as a white person has some Native American features.

My husband, (who is Korean), also told me that some Asians have very wavy hair. He said that when he was growing up in Korea there was a T.V. show featuring a guy whose hair was just like our son's, who is half-black. My son has very curly hair.

There is no question a genetic connection between blacks and Asians, whether racist Asians (such as sinoping who I see got banned) want to realize or not. You don't always need some 'scholar' to tell you what you already knew on a spiritual level.

Sekhemu

08-29-2005, 10:24 PM

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