Black Men : Voting- To Vote or Not to Vote [Archive] - Black People | African Americans

SAMURAI36

11-01-2006, 05:19 PM

I would NEVER vote. That is one of the biggest scams that the White man ever created.

The concept of "Democrats vs Republicans" is a lie.

People are barely knowledgeable about how governments work (particularly this one), yet take pride in participating in it.

Would you walk into a hospital's operating room, pick up a scalpel and start operating on someone, without having the first clue about medicine or surgery?

We have been forced to recite the Pledge of allegiance from a very young age, while not having the slightest clue of what it means.

Here is the Pledge of allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America.
And TO THE REPUBLIC, for which it stands............"

Where is the idea of "Democracy" or "Democrats", in a nation that was created as a REPUBLIC, by and for REPUBLICANS?

The last great Republic on this earth was ROME. And we all know how wicked they were.

Voting is, was and always shall be an illusion.

Further, we have been duped into believing that the VOTING RIGHTS ACT is in our favor.

Again, because we are unaware of government procedure, we think that this act is longstanding.

An "ACT" is not a law. An act is temporary and can expire. Numerous "ACTS" have expired, with no consideration for renewal. The fact that the White man chose not to make voting a LAW, shows that he wished to reserve his right to yank this "right" from us at a later date, should it prove inconvenient for him to continue to let us vote.

Thus, the very term "VOTING RIGHTS ACT" is an oxy-moron; how can I have a "right", that you can take from me at any time? That's not a "right", that's a privilege.

Here is info on the current status of the VOTING RIGHTS ACT:

http://www.votingrightsact.org/inthenews/6.27.06.html

The Philadelphia Tribune

June 27, 2006, Tuesday

Protect Democracy by Renewing the Voting Rights Act

By Barbara Arnwine

A small group of opponents in the U.S. House of Representatives have temporarily stalled the vote to renew the Voting Rights Act (VRA).

Members of Congress, primarily from Texas and Georgia, derailed efforts to pass a bill to renew and restore the VRA. Not coincidentally, Texas and Georgia come to this debate with unclean hands. Both states have egregious records of voting discrimination, as reported by the National Commission on the Voting Rights Act, a bipartisan fact-finding panel. For example, Texas ranks second behind Mississippi with the second highest total of VRA violations since 1982. In addition, a federal court decision found Georgia's recently enacted voter ID law to be a modern day poll tax.

If you cannot see that the white man does not want you, who according to his very own Constitution is merely 3/5's of a man, and therefore deemed as property (this has never been changed) to participate in his affairs, then I bid you the best of luck.

PEACE

KWABENA

11-01-2006, 10:20 PM

Peace Brotha Sam:

I could not think of anyway else to Thank you - I gave you Rep Power/Points.....Tell it!

KD

...in the interest of "ACTS," I'll guarantee you that Homestead "ACT" (1862) never expired...:thinking:

Slowly

11-01-2006, 11:39 PM

Do you actually think that votes from minorities are actually counted? Perhaps they do when voting for a mayor. But certainly not for president. Minorities are only allowed to vote because it would seem unfair if we didn't. Whoever has the most power influences who is elected.

I vote, but sometimes I think whats the use. Nobody i know voted for Bush but he still got re-elected. It's the electoral votes that put the Prez in office, not the popular vote.

SAMURAI36

11-02-2006, 08:51 AM

Peace Brotha Sam:

I could not think of anyway else to Thank you - I gave you Rep Power/Points.....Tell it!

KD

My thanks!! :D

...in the interest of "ACTS," I'll guarantee you that Homestead "ACT" (1862) never expired...:thinking:

Oh, please know that it did and has expired--several times. They simply exercise the option of renewing it.

This latest "war on Terrorism" was simply their most convenient reason to do so.

PEACE

cursed heart

11-02-2006, 09:36 AM

11-02-2006, 02:51 PM

SAMURAI36

11-02-2006, 03:30 PM

First, please don't confuse me with a "flag wavin" so-called African-American.
(To me, there are few things sadder than a jingoistic negro.) With that said... I'll continue

Fair enough.

One does not have to be a political scientist to be political active. It does not take long to get person informed about the candidates and the issues that are important to us. Especially those issues on a local (city/district level) ie: (Minimum-wage, Property Taxes, Public Schools, Sherrif, kwk)

I mostly agree with this, however:

The act of voting itself is simple and doesn't take that much time.

Just because it's simple, does not mean that it is beneficial. I know people who do not vote, nor participate in the governmental process on any level, who do more in our communities, than any elected official has ever done.

When I speak of voting or political activism I'm not talking about Black people having the political power to elect a President. However, I do believe that if Black people did actively participate in the political process, we would be able to advance an agenda. (especially on a local-level.)

The question being, when has this ever been done?

I do believe that if only 60% of eligible Black voters voted, (not necessarily together as a block, but simply showed up and casted a ballot) politicans vote take notice. Raise that number to 85% then a real Black political leader would emerge.

I have no such "belief" about any of this. What I do know, however, is that:

#1) We have been turned away from voting polls numerous times, and at various locations

#2) None of this negates the fact that as a people this system was set up against us, and not for us (see the "Pledge of Allegiance" above)

#3) We do not have to be a part of the system, in order to effect change. There are numerous groups, such as so-called Hispanics and Asians, that effect change not only on a local level, but also a Global one.....And participate minimally in this government, if at all.

A Black person saying that they would NEVER vote. Is to the delight of a white man's ears.

Then you are negating the facts that have transpired as of the past several years.

White people have never been interested in us participating in THEIR system to start with.

If 99% of the eligible Black populace voted at each and every assigned opportunity, do you think that would have had an effect on what Bush did during both election terms?

Or upon the fact that the VOTING RIGHTS ACT is going to expire, and white people have no interest in renewing it?

Voting continues to be an illusion in the minds of the entire American populace, and especially for Black people.

I used to believe that we were impotent, but now I come to believe that it is not impotence, but rather APATHY.

We are an extremely potent people. But that potency need not manifest in the form of political participation.

Apathy plays no part in this. Just because I could care less about politics, does not mean that I do not care about the progression of my people.

Please know, that I personally care very much what happens to our people. I'm just not interested in playing the Devil's game to effect change.

PEACE

Monetary

11-02-2006, 04:36 PM

omowalejabali

11-02-2006, 04:51 PM

First, please don't confuse me with a "flag wavin" so-called African-American.
(To me, there are few things sadder than a jingoistic negro.) With that said... I'll continue

One does not have to be a political scientist to be political active. It does not take long to get person informed about the candidates and the issues that are important to us. Especially those issues on a local (city/district level) ie: (Minimum-wage, Property Taxes, Public Schools, Sherrif, kwk) The act of voting itself is simple and doesn't take that much time.

When I speak of voting or political activism I'm not talking about Black people having the political power to elect a President. However, I do believe that if Black people did actively participate in the political process, we would be able to advance an agenda. (especially on a local-level.) I do believe that if only 60% of eligible Black voters voted, (not necessarily together as a block, but simply showed up and casted a ballot) politicans vote take notice. Raise that number to 85% then a real Black political leader would emerge.

A Black person saying that they would NEVER vote. Is to the delight of a white man's ears.

I used to believe that we were impotent, but now I come to believe that it is not impotence, but rather APATHY.

"I used to believe that we were impotent, but now I come to believe that it is not impotence, but rather APATHY."

I have a different twist on this. It is not only a combination of apathy and political impotence but a lack of political sophistication as well.

I agree with you totally concerning involvement in the political process on a LOCAL level, especially. I won't go into specific detail here but I KNOW political activists on a local grass-roots level who used to be anti-apartheid protestors 20 years ago who are now major corporate and legislative lobbyists and policy makers from the executive board room to the state and federal legislature. Are they making progress? Progress is relative and YES they have made progress on some fronts and lost battles on others.

The key here is learning from failed campaigns, remaining persistent, persevering and applying lessons from past mistakes and coreecting those errors resulting in political gains and consolidation of political POWER, beginning on a local level.

This Sister here is just one of many examples:
http://www.thepraxisproject.org/about/makani.html

omowalejabali

11-02-2006, 04:57 PM

Let all qualifying Black people NOT vote and you'll see what happens.

I just don't get some of us. We live in a country where the majority of the decisions that affect us are made by people that we elect and yet we feel that what happens politically won't affect us. If we do NOT vote, then the people who were elected by the people who actually voted will NOT consider our concerns when making decisions that obviously affect us. If you DON'T vote, then you can't elect the people who make very important decisions about your daily lives.

We vote for more than just the presidency. We vote on positions for the federal, state and local government as well as propositions that affect us. If you're going to stay in any country, then you need to participate in the decision-making process. If you don't, you might as well be a SLAVE.

YES, I VOTE.

I agree wholeheartedly and YES I do vote. However, I am a registered Independent and do not support the Dixiecratic or Republicratic parties. I may vote for some "Democratic" candidates if they have a proven track-record of working in the interests of the Black WORKING CLASS. That is to say, as a union activist, if they are Pro-Labor and have a history of making positive contributions to Public Education, or Black Business/community development in a practical manner.

SAMURAI36

11-02-2006, 05:14 PM

Let all qualifying Black people NOT vote and you'll see what happens.

We've already seen what happens:

http://www.afn.org/~iguana/archives/2000_11/20001105.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book10Ch.3.html

http://www.clark04.com/speeches/024/

None of this is encouragement to participate in the governmental process.

And citing rhetoric does not change the fact that this government, by both design and function, has never had any interest in allowing us to participate within it.

I just don't get some of us. We live in a country where the majority of the decisions that affect us are made by people that we elect and yet we feel that what happens politically won't affect us.

Actually, that's a confoundment of the issues. The actual issue is that, given the nature (mentioned above) of this system, we will be affected by it, regardless of whether we vote or not.

Further, the fact remains that voting is a sham. Democracy does not exsist in this society, and it barely exsists as an abstract concept anywhere else in the world, past or present.

If we do NOT vote, then the people who were elected by the people who actually voted will NOT consider our concerns when making decisions that obviously affect us.

You do realize, that this is not how the electoral process works at all, yes?

The person you did not vote for is not going to consider your concerns one way or another.

Clinton was seen as the so-called "Black man's President", yet how many Blacks did he have killed in Sudan and Somalia? How many Blacks did he turn away, coming from Haiti, while letting every one of his fellow Europeans from all over the world come flooding in?

If you DON'T vote, then you can't elect the people who make very important decisions about your daily lives.

The question is, when has this ever been the case regardless? The reality is, you don't "elect" those people to begin with.

No one can show and prove that the electoral process is fair and honest. In fact, the last 2 presidential elections have proven this.

We vote for more than just the presidency. We vote on positions for the federal, state and local government as well as propositions that affect us.

I maintain that the decisions made by these positions, from the highest to lowest, are made irrespective of our vote.

Who voted the "Patriot Act" in? Why is the VOTING RIGHTS ACT about to expire, with a slim chance of being renewed?

Why is it that not a single Congressman or Senator (both of these positions were non-Presidential) available to sign petitions from the Black Caucus, when BUSH bogarded his way into office?

Where was the "power of the vote" during that time?

If you're going to stay in any country, then you need to participate in the decision-making process. If you don't, you might as well be a SLAVE.

Firstly, not all countries operate upon an electoral process. Theocracies, Socialist countries, and others do not work that way. I personally would prefer these over the lie that is a "Democracy".

"And to the Republic, for which it stands......."

What does this mean for us?

PEACE

11-02-2006, 06:02 PM

Just because it's simple, does not mean that it is beneficial. I know people who do not vote, nor participate in the governmental process on any level, who do more in our communities, than any elected official has ever done.

I'm sure. But that does not mean that they are mutually exclusive.

The question being, when has this ever been done?

Keep in mind that politicans create and pass legislation, right?

Then there are many examples in the history of this country where Black people have used the American political/legal system to advance their agenda despite white resistance. (-I'm not just referring to Jim Crow era) This is one of the reason that I believe political/legal activism can be an used as effective tool.

#1) We have been turned away from voting polls numerous times, and at various locations

If our votes don't matter then why would they bother to turn us away? Why would they even attempt to make us feel disenfranchised?

#2) None of this negates the fact that as a people this system was set up against us, and not for us (see the "Pledge of Allegiance" above)

I agree. However, I look at it this way... The system was set-up for them, not necessarily against us. We were not even considered as part of the equation. However, today the white man knows that we, as citizens, can use their own system against them. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that we can elect a President. (We both know that the global conspiracy runs far deeper than the votes of 100 million African-Americans) but what I am saying is that we can effect change on legislation in communites where we live.(issues and referendums like "Utility Shut-offs", "Property Taxes", "Minimum Wage", kwk)

#3) We do not have to be a part of the system, in order to effect change. There are numerous groups, such as so-called Hispanics and Asians, that effect change not only on a local level, but also a Global one.....And participate minimally in this government, if at all.

Again, I don't think these are mutually exclusive. Community/Global Activists should continue to effect change as they do -however, consider adding political/legal activism as part of their toolkit.

If 99% of the eligible Black populace voted at each and every assigned opportunity, do you think that would have had an effect on what Bush did during both election terms??

At "each and every assigned opportunity"? Then of course. The political makeup would be different if 99% of Black people consistently voted. I contend that there would be more Afrikan District Representives, more Afrikan Mayors, more Afrikan Governors, the Congressial Black Caucas would have more influence. I think the entire political landscape would be strikingly different. (the reason I used Afrikan in this case it to distinguish from the Black sell-outs who are currently in office ( i.e Clarence Thomas) who only concern is advancing their political carreer)

But if you're asking if 99% of the Black population voted in the last Presidental Election... Of course not, because their would have been some Bush votes from the Black population. (even with the assumption that the majority of Black votes are for Kerry). Also, we know the Popular Vote ultimately means nothing and Electoral College votes for President.

Let me remind you that I'm not appealing to Black people to vote so that we can put a Democrat or even a Black Democrat in the White House.

Or upon the fact that the VOTING RIGHTS ACT is going to expire, and white people have no interest in renewing it?

Why would we want or even expect white people to have an interest having it renewed?

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." - Frederick Douglas

I assert that if we where more politically minded The VRA would have been made law a long time ago. (And the Constitution ammended, removing the "3/5 man")

We are an extremely potent people. But that potency need not manifest in the form of political participation.

No doubt. I used "impotent" in the context of this discussion of politics. "I thought we were "politically" impotent"... (-meaning : we want to, but cannot or don't know how -and conversely using apathy meaning: we can, but don't want to)

Apathy plays no part in this. Just because I could care less about politics, does not mean that I do not care about the progression of my people..
I didn't mean to suggest that.

Please know, that I personally care very much what happens to our people.
I believe you.

I'm just not interested in playing the Devil's game to effect change..

Whether we are interested or not, we are ALL playing.
"This is chess! It ain't checkers." - Alonzo -Training Day

My final comment. Were our ancestors misguided to sacrifice their safety and, in many cases, their lives to exercise this right to vote. -Or ... did they know something that we do not?

kemetkind

11-02-2006, 08:00 PM

SAMURAI36

11-03-2006, 09:34 AM

Just got back from the polls (early voting).

I would have to question the motives of any person actively encouraging black people not to vote...it's one thing to make your own decision to not engage, quite another to make it your business to vociferously encourage others to do the same.

Your questioning implies that this perspective is not a well-thought or prevalent one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement#Politics

Politics
Rastafari culture does not encourage mainstream political involvement. In fact, in the early stages of the movement most Rastas did not vote, out of principle.

http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/NationalElection.html

The National Election

By Messenger Elijah Muhammad

Reprinted from The Fall of America

The Black man of America has been privileged by the slave masters children for the last century to vote for whites for the offices to judge and rule. This freedom to vote has made the Black man in America feel very dignified and proud of himself. He goes to the polls very happy to vote for a white ruler. Today, he is gradually changing to a desire to vote for his own kind for such offices of authority. We must remember that our vote is strong and powerful only when and where the white man can use it to get in the office over his white opponent. After the election and the victory there are very few favors that come from his office to the Black voters who helped and aided him in getting in the office. Why? Because he does not owe the Black voter anything as long as he has to feed, clothe, and shelter him.

The Black vote could be cast or not cast. The white citizens of the government are going to win and continue to rule anyway. There is much talk of this man and that man (who shall the vote of the people put in the White House for the next four years?) How much good have the two parties (Republican and Democrat) done for us for the last century in the way of freedom, justice, and equality? Regardless of what party wins, the die is always set against us (the Black people in America).

Injustice, crooked politics, and the breeding of corruption under crooked politics have been practiced ever since Adam to the present day rulers. Adam was the first crook. There has not been justice for the Black man in this race of people, and this is why the race suffers from the effect of chaos today. There are Black politicians who would like to use their Black people for selfish greed and will throw them behind any crook with money. Black politicians of this type have sold their Black brothers to suffering and shame for self elevation with the crook. This election is one of the most serious in the history of American government, because either party that seeks the office of presidency is faced with the problem of saving the lives of the people of America. If the present party (Democratic) remains in office, you know the answer. If the Republican party takes over, you should know the answer. There will be a lull before the storm. The storm can be delayed and every hour and day that it can be delayed is to your benefit. The Black man should be very serious and careful about his voting because 90 per cent of the Black votes cast are cast by ones who do not have the knowledge of what they are casting their vote for. I still say, as I have said for many years, vote for Allah (God) to be your ruler and come follow me.

http://www.hebrewisraelites.org/deut28.htm

Just about everything "African Americans" have tried to do to improve our living conditions as a people, has failed. We have tried the political system (voting), the educational system (attaining college degrees), and economics (capitalism). But all these genres have been useless to us. Other Ethnic groups have been successful in bringing their people to a decent standard of living, when they use those same systems (political, educational, and economics). We have been in this country longer than almost every ethnic group accept the so-called Indians.

We are behind all those other groups in just about every category of society. Every time we try to make a move in POLITICS it fails, every time we try to make a move in ECONOMICS it fails, and so on and so on. And the main reason for this is because we have forsaken / forgotten Yah and have forgotten our special connection to him. Most importantly, we have forgotten that we made a covenant with Him, in which we promised to keep his laws. But we have broken that promise and now we are suffering for it.

All these are prominent organizations within the Black community. Do you question them as well?

You're going to be hard-pressed to find a Black cultural organization in these days and times, that condones or supports the Western Political governmental process.

PEACE

SAMURAI36

11-03-2006, 10:03 AM

I'm sure. But that does not mean that they are mutually exclusive.

Agreed, however that equally does not mean that both aspects serve the same purpose.

Keep in mind that politicans create and pass legislation, right?

This statement is counter-intuitive, in that it negates by implication, the fact that all the legislation passed is NEVER to Black people's benefit overall.

Then there are many examples in the history of this country where Black people have used the American political/legal system to advance their agenda despite white resistance. (-I'm not just referring to Jim Crow era) This is one of the reason that I believe political/legal activism can be an used as effective tool.

These advancements have only been at the convenience of and for white people, nothing more. And I speak of the times of slavery, up till now.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln was really a "slave abolutionist"? Or that Jim Crow Laws were abolished out of altruism? Or that they allowed you to vote because they felt "it was the right thing to do"?

Please consider the political climate at the times of all these instances. Nowadays, you actually should be a political scientist, in order to be a political activist. Otherwise, there is a whole realm of information that is amiss.

If our votes don't matter then why would they bother to turn us away? Why would they even attempt to make us feel disenfranchised?

Shock Value?

Your vote will truly matter, when you are able to elect a Black person, a woman, or some other minority with your vote.

Do you really think that is ever going to occur?

I agree. However, I look at it this way... The system was set-up for them, not necessarily against us.

Are you totally serious?

How does this perspective reconcile with the Constitution? Is being seen as "3/5's of a man", to be considered as "not necessarily against us"?

Is a man who sees me as not fully a human being, and has and is willing to treat me accordingly (There are Tree-Hugging Crackers out there, who are willing to "Save the Whales and Save the Manitees", yet Black men are dying by the 1000's) to be viewed as "not necessarily my enemy"?

We were not even considered as part of the equation.

That is because we are viewed as part of the problem; a burden that must be handled accordingly, in his view.

However, today the white man knows that we, as citizens, can use their own system against them.

When? Where? How?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that we can elect a President. (We both know that the global conspiracy runs far deeper than the votes of 100 million African-Americans) but what I am saying is that we can effect change on legislation in communites where we live.(issues and referendums like "Utility Shut-offs", "Property Taxes", "Minimum Wage", kwk)

I maintain that things in our community get handled irrespective to participating in the governmental process.

Again, I don't think these are mutually exclusive. Community/Global Activists should continue to effect change as they do -however, consider adding political/legal activism as part of their toolkit.

That's like saying I should add Boston Baked Beans, Lemon Heads, Now & Laters, and Jaw Breakers to my Vegetarian diet.

I have expunged those things from my eating habits for a reason. I am looking for a different and better way.

At "each and every assigned opportunity"? Then of course. The political makeup would be different if 99% of Black people consistently voted. I contend that there would be more Afrikan District Representives, more Afrikan Mayors, more Afrikan Governors, the Congressial Black Caucas would have more influence. I think the entire political landscape would be strikingly different. (the reason I used Afrikan in this case it to distinguish from the Black sell-outs who are currently in office ( i.e Clarence Thomas) who only concern is advancing their political carreer)

Is this mere supposition? They would have started turning us from the polls a long time ago, if we attempted that level of participation.

The fact is, they do not want us to be involved. Are you going to continue to knock on my door, if I have clearly demonstrated that I view as a trespasser?

But if you're asking if 99% of the Black population voted in the last Presidental Election... Of course not, because their would have been some Bush votes from the Black population. (even with the assumption that the majority of Black votes are for Kerry). Also, we know the Popular Vote ultimately means nothing and Electoral College votes for President.

You honestly don't think that the same process applies on lower governmental levels?

Let me remind you that I'm not appealing to Black people to vote so that we can put a Democrat or even a Black Democrat in the White House.

I'm aware of this. However, my perspective does not end simply there.

Why would we want or even expect white people to have an interest having it renewed?

All the more reason that I encourage others to look at their reasonings for wishing to participate in it, in the first place.

But more to the point, this discussion will become moot in about a year or so.

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." - Frederick Douglas

I assert that if we where more politically minded The VRA would have been made law a long time ago. (And the Constitution ammended, removing the "3/5 man")

I disagree; it's my assertion that the White man would have pushed for our extinction (even moreso than he already is), had we attempted to assert ourselves in his system.

I return to my statement above, regarding the fact that changes in this society did not occur for the sake of change?

Abe Lincoln "freed the slaves" merely because he was being pressured financially to do so.....The same applies to the Jim Crow laws, in which America was being harshly scrutinized in the world arena........In both instances, the benefit of the change (begrugdingly) outweighed the desire to hold fast to the principle.

No doubt. I used "impotent" in the context of this discussion of politics. "I thought we were "politically" impotent"... (-meaning : we want to, but cannot or don't know how -and conversely using apathy meaning: we can, but don't want to)

We should be focusing this potency of ours elsewhere.

There are in fact numerous examples of the benefit of doing this, even while we remain "politically impotent" as you say.

Can we be a prosperous people, despite our not participating in politics, yay or nay?

I didn't mean to suggest that.

The implication is there, though. See above.

People (not necessarily you) seem to think that politics is our only option for prosperity in this society.. This is a very faulty notion.

I believe you.

Whether we are interested or not, we are ALL playing.
"This is chess! It ain't checkers." - Alonzo -Training Day

I am indeed aware that the game continues despite my choice to forfeit.

However, the effect of the game loses potency, when I strive to change the rules.

My final comment. Were our ancestors misguided to sacrifice their safety and, in many cases, their lives to exercise this right to vote. -Or ... did they know something that we do not?

Given the climate and circumstances at the time of this plight, I would say YES, they were misguided. As well as uninformed.

The pledge of allegience was still the pledge of allegiance back then. The Constitution was the same then, as it is now.

The Illuminati, the Boule, and other components of the "conspiracy" that even you acknowledged were just as live--and even moreso now.

The difference between then and now, is that we are living in the Age Of Information.

I chose not to vote, not because of how I feel, but rather because of what I know.

I KNOW that this is a Republican nation, and not a Democratic one.

I KNOW that the electoral process, based on the structure of the above statement, is a sham.

I KNOW that the individuals "elected" into office, from the highest positions to the lowest, are nothing but figureheads for the real power.

This is no different than KNOWING the results of smoking cigarettes (I'm sure we all watch those "TRUTH" commercials), and continuing to smoke regardless.

My perspective is, we've tried the whole political thing for a half-century now....Why not opt for another option?

PEACE

11-03-2006, 01:49 PM

Agreed, however that equally does not mean that both aspects serve the same purpose.
They can serve the same purpose.

This statement is counter-intuitive, in that it negates by implication, the fact that all the legislation passed is NEVER to Black people's benefit overall.

These advancements have only been at the convenience of and for white people, nothing more. And I speak of the times of slavery, up till now.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln was really a "slave abolutionist"? Or that Jim Crow Laws were abolished out of altruism? Or that they allowed you to vote because they felt "it was the right thing to do"?

Never? The there been many advancements achieved by Blacks that did not serve the white interests and in spite of active white resistance. The anti-lynching legistlation that was introduced and passed through the work of Ida B. Wells is an example that immediately comes to mind.

Many of us understand that Lincoln was a politican, nothing more.

Jim Crow Laws were abolished because Black Activism.

Shock Value?

Your vote will truly matter, when you are able to elect a Black person, a woman, or some other minority with your vote.
Do you really think that is ever going to occur?
Come on! There are many Black elected officials. Districts Reps, Congress, Mayors, Governors. Many hold these offices not because of thier political vision or intergrity just simply because the are in a heavily Black populated area. I assert that if we took the political process more seriously, the same areas were the demographics are clearly in our favor we could elect Blacks with a pro-Black agenda, rather than the candidate who happens to be Black.

Are you totally serious?

How does this perspective reconcile with the Constitution? Is being seen as "3/5's of a man", to be considered as "not necessarily against us"?

Is a man who sees me as not fully a human being, and has and is willing to treat me accordingly (There are Tree-Hugging Crackers out there, who are willing to "Save the Whales and Save the Manitees", yet Black men are dying by the 1000's) to be viewed as "not necessarily my enemy"?

The 3/5ths phrase was not because they viewed our enslaved ancestors as a threat or their enemy. It was because they viewed them as property or a financial asset. So, what I'm trying to say here is that the so-called founding fathers in their arrogance didn't even have the foresight to consider that the slaves would someday be free. -giving them them same unalienable rights. This was an oversight. - And because of that The Constitution through effective political leadership can be ammended. This is what scares white America.

Don't not mistake my suggestion that Blacks be politically active with how I feel we are viewed by whites. I know my enemy.

When? Where? How?
Too many to list. Consider this instead... The major social/economic differences between our community today, and our community post-Civil War was through political activism.

Is this mere supposition? They would have started turning us from the polls a long time ago, if we attempted that level of participation.

Some may call it supposition. I call it VISION.

They tried to turn us away! Poll-tax, Grandfather-clause, Literacy Tests, kwk. Many were killed attempting that level of participation. Today, however, we've been effectively disenfranchised us so much that white America doesn't even have to take those measures. Some of our brightest minds talk us out of voting rather developing effective political strategy.

I disagree; it's my assertion that the White man would have pushed for our extinction (even moreso than he already is), had we attempted to assert ourselves in his system.
Just maybe that would spark the Revolution that many speak of. (Ya know... the one that won't be televised.)

I return to my statement above, regarding the fact that changes in this society did not occur for the sake of change?

Abe Lincoln "freed the slaves" merely because he was being pressured financially to do so.....The same applies to the Jim Crow laws, in which America was being harshly scrutinized in the world arena........In both instances, the benefit of the change (begrugdingly) outweighed the desire to hold fast to the principle.
Exactly. Lincoln freeing the slaves was a political move. "Slaves States" vs. "Non-Slaves" was almost the equilavent to the modern-day Democrats and Republicans. To prevent the "Slave States" from gaining majority control, Lincoln had to take slavery of the table.

Jim Crow laws were abolished by Black Activism. Since when has America yielded because of world pressure? Internal protests have been the only way America has shifted policies.

We should be focusing this potency of ours elsewhere.
There are in fact numerous examples of the benefit of doing this, even while we remain "politically impotent" as you say.
Can we be a prosperous people, despite our not participating in politics, yay or nay?
We should be focusing our potency wherever our talents lie.

The implication is there, though. See above.

People (not necessarily you) seem to think that politics is our only option for prosperity in this society.. This is a very faulty notion.
I doubt that many here view political involvement as a paneca.

Given the climate and circumstances at the time of this plight, I would say YES, they were misguided. As well as uninformed.
Even with 20/20 hindsight, I'm surprised at your arrogrance.

The pledge of allegience was still the pledge of allegiance back then. The Constitution was the same then, as it is now.
Agreed. But the Constitution can be ammended. (Sorry, I'm being visionary again.)

My perspective is, we've tried the whole political thing for a half-century now....Why not opt for another option?
I don't think we've applied our full political potential to even know if we should discard it as one of many nationbuilding strategies.

mrron

11-03-2006, 04:40 PM

I guess if your only issue is that the white man is going to continue to rule in a system where the majority rules, then perhaps you are right in that the majority of the winners are going to be white, because they are the numerical majority.

Voting is really about politics and not just race. Asians and hispanics are not dominating any political offices, but I've never heard this kind of non sense coming from their mouths about not voting because it's a white man's game. We have to vote on issues not race. There are plenty of white people of middle and lower class incomes who have the same concerns that we have, as black people.

Our vote is so important because, even if counted separately, we tend to vote mostly democratic. The white vote is more evenly divided then our's is. So when you consider that one white mans vote cancels out anothers, then we can indeed elect a candidate, he probably won't be black, but then the blacks that are getting notice these days, aren't necessarity concerned about the same things the average black man is concerned about, and some just have a disdain for their own kind anyway.

Repeating the same messages about the slave master's son is no longer a valid argument. The same with the negative comments about those blacks who have been elected to political office being impotent and ineffective. We have to believe in our elected leaders, stand behind them, and definitely vote for the candidate your feel who will best serve your needs.

George Bush got elected because of voter apathy, too many people stayed home and because they didn't believe the system works. Well it worked for George Bush, he got elected and now has a very low approval rating. Is this what was intended?

SAMURAI36

11-03-2006, 04:50 PM

They can serve the same purpose.

The the issue remains, that they most often don't. Don't you get the impression that you are voting, merely out of some sense of "respect" for what our ancestors went through?

Never? The there been many advancements achieved by Blacks that did not serve the white interests and in spite of active white resistance. The anti-lynching legistlation that was introduced and passed through the work of Ida B. Wells is an example that immediately comes to mind.

Many of us understand that Lincoln was a politican, nothing more.

Jim Crow Laws were abolished because Black Activism.

You quoted my statements, but did not take them into account when responding to them.

JIM CROW was not abolished because of Black Activism, but rather in spite of it; under the same auspices as Abraham Lincoln's "work"

It is well-documented, that the pressure from the rest of the world during the 60's was a major catalyst for the change.

During a time where the Cold-War was at its height, there was far more going on that had captured the attention of the white man's mind and sense of morality (whatever that is), than to treat Blacks with respect and equality.

Come on! There are many Black elected officials. Districts Reps, Congress, Mayors, Governors. Many hold these offices not because of thier political vision or intergrity just simply because the are in a heavily Black populated area. I assert that if we took the political process more seriously, the same areas were the demographics are clearly in our favor we could elect Blacks with a pro-Black agenda, rather than the candidate who happens to be Black.

Please forgive my incomplete statement; I meant Black Commander-In-Chief.

The 3/5ths phrase was not because they viewed our enslaved ancestors as a threat or their enemy. It was because they viewed them as property or a financial asset.

I agree; however property can be no less dangerous......If a mule not dangerous, if it does not wish to work for its owner/master?

So, what I'm trying to say here is that the so-called founding fathers in their arrogance didn't even have the foresight to consider that the slaves would someday be free. -giving them them same unalienable rights. This was an oversight. - And because of that The Constitution through effective political leadership can be ammended. This is what scares white America.

While I at least partially follow your logic, the portion that I have a problem with is that you are viewing this as an "oversight".

Their concept of seeing the world as their play-thing is not an oversight; if anything, it's their undersight. Via myopia, they lack the ability to see any other way, and history has proved this.

It was not different than in ROME, the First Republic (as mentioned earlier). And, as stated, they would rather make us extinct, than to change things beyond a level that becomes too inconvenient for them.

Besides, ammending the Constitution does not negate the fact that White people as a collective entity--and especially those in the highest seat of power in this land--have, do and will always consider us to be 3/5's of a man.

Yes, "Jim Crow" has gone away, but what was replaced with? The Patriot Act.

Instead of spraying us with waterhoses, the merely spray us with Bullets and tasers.

What use was the "Black vote", when a Black man was being dragged behind a pick-up truck?

Don't not mistake my suggestion that Blacks be politically active with how I feel we are viewed by whites. I know my enemy.

Fair enough. By this notion alone, you and I are equally aligned. However, the debate remains (both here, and all over our community) as to whether the most appropriate tactic is being employed.

Too many to list.

Surely 3 or 4 would suffice....?

Consider this instead... The major social/economic differences between our community today, and our community post-Civil War was through political activism.

I maintain that any changes that took place, were in spite of our efforts, and not because of them.

Some may call it supposition. I call it VISION.

Semantics........Either way, it does not negate the fact demonstrated in my statement: they would have turned us away a long time ago.

They tried to turn us away! Poll-tax, Grandfather-clause, Literacy Tests, kwk. Many were killed attempting that level of participation. Today, however, we've been effectively disenfranchised us so much that white America doesn't even have to take those measures.

There remains several key factors that you are omiting in your conclusion of the events.

Some of our brightest minds talk us out of voting rather developing effective political strategy.

What this implies, as stated previously, is that political involvement is our only strategy, despite the fact that it continuously fails.

There are other options, you know........Options that are in fact being employed, and with a much higher success rate to boot.

Just maybe that would spark the Revolution that many speak of. (Ya know... the one that won't be televised.)

Agreed; however this need not be the alternative. For far too long, we as a people seem to dwell on extremes.

Exactly. Lincoln freeing the slaves was a political move. "Slaves States" vs. "Non-Slaves" was almost the equilavent to the modern-day Democrats and Republicans. To prevent the "Slave States" from gaining majority control, Lincoln had to take slavery of the table.

Agreed, however:

Jim Crow laws were abolished by Black Activism. Since when has America yielded because of world pressure? Internal protests have been the only way America has shifted policies.

This is the myopic view that is produced of not having a more sophisticated understanding of world events. It's also why I'm becoming more and more convinced, that we as a people should in fact become "political scientists", if it means gaining all possible facts before we make the decision to participate in the political process.

There was a documentary running on PBS several years ago (early to mid 90's) about what all was going on in the world at the time of Jim Crow. Several world leaders were calling for the dismantlement of that law.

We should be focusing our potency wherever our talents lie.

Agreed, and thus I have no interest in the political process, as-is.

I doubt that many here view political involvement as a paneca.

The implication is nonetheless there. Most of our people don't even know, nor understand the implications behind the Pledge Of Allegiance, let alone how far (or short, for that matter)-reaching the notion of politics lie.

A case in point, is the world view of segregation at the time.

Even with 20/20 hindsight, I'm surprised at your arrogrance.

You mistake arrogance, with a mere stating of the facts. See above. Do you not agree, that our people are grossly un/misinformed?

Agreed. But the Constitution can be ammended. (Sorry, I'm being visionary again.)

Idealistic is perhaps the better term.......To which I would employ realism.

I don't think we've applied our full political potential to even know if we should discard it as one of many nationbuilding strategies.

My point being, "they" are never going to allow us to do so to begin with.

PEACE

SAMURAI36

11-03-2006, 05:05 PM

I guess if your only issue is that the white man is going to continue to rule in a system where the majority rules, then perhaps you are right in that the majority of the winners are going to be white, because they are the numerical majority.

Actually, that's not the logic at all. At least, not all of it. The crux of the argument is not about majority, but rather about power.

Voting is really about politics and not just race.

You are using 2 abstracts, in contrast to a tangible.

Asians and hispanics are not dominating any political offices, but I've never heard this kind of non sense coming from their mouths about not voting because it's a white man's game.

How often do you hear anything from Asians and Hispanics? They are smart enough to not divulge their ideals to outsiders; a tactic that we would do well to learn from.

We have to vote on issues not race. There are plenty of white people of middle and lower class incomes who have the same concerns that we have, as black people.

What you are mentioning here, is immaterial to the point. How informed are you, in regards to the political process.

Politics is not an inexplicable concept, nor is it self-explanatory. There are often unspoken and subtle pieces of information that can and do effect one's view.

How do you feel, to know that there is no such thing as "Democratic" in this nation?

Reference the Pledge of Allegiance.

Our vote is so important because, even if counted separately, we tend to vote mostly democratic.

See above. This sounds like you bobbing for green apples, in a bucket in which you have been repeatedly told, contains absolutely no green apples.

The white vote is more evenly divided then our's is. So when you consider that one white mans vote cancels out anothers, then we can indeed elect a candidate, he probably won't be black, but then the blacks that are getting notice these days, aren't necessarity concerned about the same things the average black man is concerned about, and some just have a disdain for their own kind anyway.

Are you speaking on a Presidential level? If so, then none of this applies; in fact, several times has the Supreme Court litigated over the notion of doing away with the Electoral College altogether. However, we all know that this is NEVER going to happen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_college#Electoral_vs._Popular_vote

Electoral vs. Popular vote
There is an anomaly to the electoral college system that can result in a candidate winning the presidency by winning the majority of the electoral vote even if he fails to win the popular vote. Although rare, this controversial outcome has occurred on three occasions in U.S. history.

In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes won 185 electoral votes to Samuel Tilden's 184, but Tilden won a majority of the popular vote with 4,300,590 cast in his favor versus 4,036,298 cast for Hayes.

In 1888, Benjamin Harrison won 233 electoral votes to Grover Cleveland's 168, with 5,439,853 popular votes for Harrison and 5,540,309 for Cleveland.

In 2000, George W. Bush won 271 electoral votes to Al Gore's 266, with 50,456,062 popular votes for Bush and 50,996,582 votes for Gore.

After this most recent occurrence in 2000, there were many calls for the elimination of the electoral college system in favor of a direct popular vote for the presidency. However, such a reform would require a constitutional amendment.

The rhetoric being espoused here, in no way trumps the knowledgeable facts about the issue.

Voting, and the governmental process as a whole, does not work in any remotely similar way to what Black people have been (un)informed into thinking that it does.

And it is with that knowledge, that I and others seek not to participate in it.

Repeating the same messages about the slave master's son is no longer a valid argument.

It's good that no one here (certainly not I) has done any such thing.

The same with the negative comments about those blacks who have been elected to political office being impotent and ineffective. We have to believe in our elected leaders, stand behind them, and definitely vote for the candidate your feel who will best serve your needs.

How does one replace one useless piece of rhetoric, with another? :confused:

George Bush got elected because of voter apathy, too many people stayed home and because they didn't believe the system works. Well it worked for George Bush, he got elected and now has a very low approval rating. Is this what was intended?

My friend, you are Grossly uninformed about the matter. None of this last statement is factual. Perhaps you are not aware that GW BUSH LOST the popular vote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Electoral_College#Controversy_over_the_curren t_system

Losing the popular vote
In the elections of 1824, 1876, 1888, and 2000, the candidate who received a plurality of the popular vote did not become president. The 1824 election was eventually decided by Congress and thus distinct from the last three which were decided without.

Proponents of the system counter that the Electoral College requires candidates to garner more widespread support throughout the Union; a popular vote system could elect a person who wins by a large margin in a few states over another person who wins by small margins in most states. The latter candidate, the argument goes, has to appeal to a broader array of interests than the former and is less likely to be a demagogue or extremist. However, the Electoral College is not guaranteed to favor the latter candidate in that scenario. In fact, given the 2000 allocation of electors, a candidate could win with the support of just the 11 largest states.

Further, there is currently no such thing as a national "popular vote," because combining the different popular votes into a single vote has serious statistical problems, and claims of the electoral college denying the "popular will" are specious. For example, voters in Massachusetts or Texas in 2000, as their respective states were sure to vote Democrat or Republican for President, were more likely to vote for a third party candidate, or not vote at all, since their vote for their preferred Democrat or Republican candidate was extremely unlikely to change the result. Conversely, a voter in Florida was more likely to vote Democrat or Republican, even if they favored a third-party candidate, because their vote was much more likely to make a difference.

Similarly, the effect might be more likely to affect one candidate than another; for example, as there was a large anti-Bush sentiment in 2004, voters in uncontested states might have been more willing to come out in favor of John Kerry, despite their vote being less likely to make a difference, as a sign of opposition to incumbent George W. Bush.

The effects of this phenomenon are somewhat known, but impossible to quantify in any close election, such as in 2000, when Al Gore had 0.5% more of the cast votes than George W. Bush, far inside the margin of error of any study. Because of the extremely thin margin, the only way to know who would have won the popular vote in 2000 would be to have conducted an actual popular vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_college#Electoral_vs._Popular_vote

In 2000, George W. Bush won 271 electoral votes to Al Gore's 266, with 50,456,062 popular votes for Bush and 50,996,582 votes for Gore.

Again, I encourage our people to actually take the time to invest in the knowledge about this government, and not participate in it, simply because our grandparents did.

This is no different than continuing to go to church, merely because your family doees, and not based on any intellectual undertaking therein.

As demonstrated, our people have a nasty habit of blindly following tradition.

PEACE

jamesfrmphilly

11-03-2006, 05:23 PM

i will be voting early and often.

omowalejabali

11-03-2006, 05:59 PM

I guess if your only issue is that the white man is going to continue to rule in a system where the majority rules, then perhaps you are right in that the majority of the winners are going to be white, because they are the numerical majority.

Voting is really about politics and not just race. Asians and hispanics are not dominating any political offices, but I've never heard this kind of non sense coming from their mouths about not voting because it's a white man's game. We have to vote on issues not race. There are plenty of white people of middle and lower class incomes who have the same concerns that we have, as black people.

Our vote is so important because, even if counted separately, we tend to vote mostly democratic. The white vote is more evenly divided then our's is. So when you consider that one white mans vote cancels out anothers, then we can indeed elect a candidate, he probably won't be black, but then the blacks that are getting notice these days, aren't necessarity concerned about the same things the average black man is concerned about, and some just have a disdain for their own kind anyway.

Repeating the same messages about the slave master's son is no longer a valid argument. The same with the negative comments about those blacks who have been elected to political office being impotent and ineffective. We have to believe in our elected leaders, stand behind them, and definitely vote for the candidate your feel who will best serve your needs.

George Bush got elected because of voter apathy, too many people stayed home and because they didn't believe the system works. Well it worked for George Bush, he got elected and now has a very low approval rating. Is this what was intended?
:darts:

Eks

11-03-2006, 07:42 PM

You all are too deep for me! In the paraphrased words of PhillyJ… “Vote early…vote often!” There is no greater psychological, cognitive, socio-political, healthy rush of power & control than the idea and eventual reality that “you” contributed – and mattered – to/in the greater good of your community/society. Voting is a universal vehicle for such hope & anticipation. Take a way a man’s hope, you’ve taken away his dreams. And as we know, when you take away his dreams…he dies! Brothers and sisters, don’t be so deep that we miss what is simply important. As one of my clients used to say… “paralysis by analysis.” VOTE EARLY! VOTE!!!!! And if you live in one of those crazy states where in we were literally robbed in ’00 & ’04, take a chair, pack a lunch, take your camera phone…. And when/if stuff starts happening phone it in to the major news media outlets, take pictures, and get names! BUT DON’T LEAVE IN FRUSTRATION OR START A RIOT! That will give them cause to shut the location down!

KWABENA

11-03-2006, 08:15 PM

Since the so-called 'Votings Rights Act' was "given" to us, how has it changed:

Affordable Public Housing
The Criminal In-Justice System crisis
Health Care
Drug cartels running through the Country
Financial Situations
Welfare
etc.

Peace-

KD

I still await an answer...

KD

KWABENA

11-03-2006, 08:23 PM

George Bush got elected because of voter apathy, too many people stayed home and because they didn't believe the system works. Well it worked for George Bush, he got elected and now has a very low approval rating. Is this what was intended?

Really?

I thought Religious Leaders who were close to him "prophesied" he was going to win by default, due to the fact that he was "saved..."

(By the way, this came from a Pastor who is close to Bush)

By the way, this Pastor mentioned it BEFORE the 2004 Election, and mentioned it again in the form of "I told you so!" in January 2005/06, while telling the congregation they don't even know what a "Democrat" is, considering she was voting for REPUBLICAN Bush.

Apathy was never brought up.

KD

jamesfrmphilly

11-03-2006, 09:38 PM

I still await an answer...

KD
i'll vote for you while i'm in there.

omowalejabali

11-03-2006, 10:15 PM

I still await an answer...

KD
Brother Kwabena, no disrespect intended and I hope that you do not take any of what I have to say personally.

Personally, I am a product of the affirmative action era. I attended the university initially in 1975 straight out of high school. Due to the legislation at that time, even though I was regularly admissable, the "equal access" and "special action" programs brought into the univerity system larger numbers of inner city youth and there were an abundance of Cal grants, Work study programs, Peer Tutoring and Counseling programs, Freshmen Summer Prograns, Transfer Student Programs, Black and Pan African Studies fellowships, Graduate Advancement Programs, Partnership Programs, Early Outreach and Student Exposure programs, Community Service Programs, Community Tutoring and Mentor Programs,.......

Over the years, as a graduate student (in Special Education/Teacher Education Program) and as a Graduate student represenatative I witnessed first hand the attack and dismatling of these programs and witnessed rapidly declining admission rates for "Third World" students, accompanied by cutbacks in all of the above services and programs.

I was one of a handful of students at UCLA that had worked for over 10 years to institutionalize our community programs, and in the mid 80s developed the Academic Supports Program and later, Student retention programs so that we could provide community service experience for interested granduate and undergraduate students while at the same time focusing on making sure those students matriculated through the university system, increasing their likelihood of working in the interest of the Black community upon graduation since we provided a campus/community base for them to make successful transition.

The point here is the core group were students who entered into the university in the 70s, students influenced by the Black panther party and the Nation of Islam, mostly from the inner city and if it were not for the voting rights act and subsequest affirmative action legislation none of this would have been possible.

One thing I must add also is that we were also able to establish a South African Task Force and initiate a divestment movement, cultural boycott and provide material aid to anti-apartheid groups and liberation movements in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe and the Congo, using university resources as we built a coalition and controlled student service organization funding for most of the 1980s, beginning in 1978, at one of the countires largest universities. This also enabled us to play a pivotal role in organizing a statewide Black Student Alliance (some of us also were active in the Black United Front and the National Black Independent Political Party (NBIPP).

I will be 49 next month and know numerous Black alumni who are major policy makers and lobbyists, community educators, gang intervention counselors, corporate executives, probation and correctional officers and counselors, substance abuse counselors, community policing advocates,lawyers, entertainers, ministers, engineers, court judges, et al.

I can in no way diminish the positive contributions of these individuals, all who were provided educational opportunity and advancement due to the struggle of the Black masses exercising their right to vote.

And if more of us proactively participated in the "system" the reversal of these formentioned programs would not have been legislated.

kemetkind

11-03-2006, 10:24 PM

omowalejabali

11-04-2006, 01:40 AM

What does it hurt you to vote? What do you gain by not doing so?

Does it cost anything other than a small bit of time?

Is the very act itself psychologically damaging?

Even if it were true that our only good reason for voting is out of respect for our ancestors - what does it say about us if
we acknowledge as much yet still refuse to do so....especially when it requires so little of us?

How can we claim to be serious about black upliftment without being willing to use any tool in our arsenal?

Sure, there are some concerns about this tool's efficacy, but just as surely we know there have been occassions it HAS been effective (see brother Omo's post).

We also know that if en masse we as a people REFUSE to vote, whatever our collective condition in this country is now, it can and will become much worse.

It is analogous of hezbollah shooting their rockets at Israel during their conflict this summer.

Their rockets were largely ineffective. Most of them missed their mark and those that found it did little damage.

They kept firing them.

They didn't say - "90% of our rockets don't amount to squat so I'm going to sit on my hands and whine about Israel's superior firepower."

They kept firing those inept rockets, and eventually their continued bombardment helped lead to a psychological victory.

They didn't know in advance if their weaponry would affect the outcome, but they had enough sense to know it would've had ZERO effect if they didn't bother using it.

We're depending too heavily on naked/raw intellect if we can "rationalize" sitting on the sidelines holding a weapon talking about how we've syllogistically deduced said weapon probably won't work, and are thus righteously justified in our inaction.

Let me extend my previous post and add a few things in light of this post.

Brother kemetkind makes some very valid points and an interesting analogy with Hezbollah. In fact, the incident a few weeks ago in Lebanon proved to the advantage of Hezbollah since it changed its status from underground militia to parliamentary participant. This gave them some legitamacy as a political party, thus an arena in the international community which Israel must recognize.

In my earlier scenario, the extension of the "Third World Coalition" at UCLA tranferred into the larger political Community in Los Angeles, Inglewood and Compton, and when I left Los Angeles my closest associates and alumni Brothers had established themselves in the Black Arts community of leimert Park, were working alonside my aunt Laura, the President of the local Merchant's Association, and were developing a program known as Community Build. The newly elected mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, a UCLA alumnus, was supported by other former Coalition members and it was through the use of the VOTE that a "minority" coalition of voters successfully voted in Antonio, whose staff included younger Black activists such as Karen Bass, who now is an assemblyawoman. Karen herself was once a key organizer with the South African Support Coalition working closely with former BPP organizer Michael Zinzun, a noted anti-Police brutality activist (Campaign Against Police Abuse-CAPA). Karen was also a grass roots organizer with the South central Organizing Committe with my sister Assata Umoja, who was actually responsible for getting me involved in the BSU while a student at CSUNorthridge. (See also Anthony Thigpen's Jobs For Peace)

I finally made the decision to move from Los Angeles recognizing that I did not need to live there to influence positive change because my best friends had extablished a political, personal and Business relationship with one of my closest family members (aunt Laura Hendrix) who herself is a local Business LEADER.

The key here is in each instance the above mentioned went from protest movement to "any means necessary" INCLUDING exercising the vote. One of my friends from elementary school, John Caldwell, had lost two city council campaigns, but he has helped to expand our "network" up into city hall, up to the State Lobby and even into the national level (via Maxine Waters, whose son Ed Waters was the head of the local Free South Africa Movement).

Another key person in this is a former Black Student Alliance chairwoman, Makai Themba (Nixon) who is not only a former state lobbyist, but a gifted writer and national lobbyist and policy-maker.
http://www.thepraxisproject.org/about/makani.html

Makani's brother is the former Columbia professor and essayist Robin D.G. Kelley
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/1998/july29/kelley729.html

Robin and Makani both participated in their youth in the Harlem BPP Chapters' Free breakfast Program and this is their later connection with Michael Zinzun after moving to Pasadena, but it also is a connection to Assata Shakur and the Panther 21, and also a link to the LA BPP chapter and the families of Geronimo Pratt and Tupac Shakur. It also is linked to the UCLA BSU's connection with the local BPP dating back to Bunchy Carter, as both Geronimo and Bunchy were BSU chairmen who also entered the university as former athletes admitted under the Special Action Program.

What I am explaining here can not be found in textbooks. It is an explanation based in Real Lives and Real Life Struggle. That is to say, community PRAXIS. I am fortunate to have been part of this Community BUILDING and to have a daughter who herself is coming of age an an extension of this struggle. My daughter Malaika has interned with several law firms, worked with Professor Kelley (a surprise to me when I found out since Makani and I used to be VERY CLOSE FRIENDS!) and she also has worked on Cynthia McKinney's campaign in Atlanta. My daughter is yet another extension of a group of former BPP and New Afrikan Family that "migrated" to Atlanta and Stone Mountain from california and established the Malcolm X Grassroots Organization, which, again, is one of the organizations that raised a young Tupac Shakur.

I will close by stating an axiom of Malcolm X. If you are not willing to exercise the ballot, you better be ready to utilize the Bullet.

This is to say, if you dismiss the political process within the system, you must prepare to dismantle the system by revolutionary action.

To do neither of the two is a betrayal of a historical mission and responsibility which must be fulfilled. Too many of our leaders have been assasinated and murdered and it is a dishoner to these Ancestors to do less than they have done for US.

Peace...

SAMURAI36

11-04-2006, 08:33 AM

What does it hurt you to vote? What do you gain by not doing so?

Does it cost anything other than a small bit of time?

Is the very act itself psychologically damaging?

To quote one of my favorite MC"s, HOLOCAUST, from the WU-TANG CLAN:

"We rage against machines, and protest at pointless venues/
While every dollar that you spend, enables it to continue......"

--Midnight In The Garden Of Good And Evil

Even if it were true that our only good reason for voting is out of respect for our ancestors - what does it say about us if
we acknowledge as much yet still refuse to do so....especially when it requires so little of us?

Just because our ancestors engaged in it, does not make it correct.

There is a such thing as a "DARK DECEASED"; that is, an ancestor that has cursed his lineage with wrongful or misguided deeds.

His/her progeny then has to put forth extra spiritual work, to not only clear their Kha if this unclean energy, but also lay the groundwork for future generations of their lineage.

I for one, am not interested in continuing to make excuses and justifications for the mishaps of our ancestors. Just because they are our ancestors, does not mean that they had not been misinformed.

What will the future generations say, about the misdeeds that many of our people at present--who will at that time become our children's ancestors--when they review their history (our present)?

Will they justify gang-banging, and drug usage, and teen pregancy? By your logic, their doing so would be no less justified.

The fact remains, that we blindly follow out of tradition. That is not honoring our ancestors. True honor would be to learn from the mistakes that they made, and not continue to make them.

How can we claim to be serious about black upliftment without being willing to use any tool in our arsenal?

A gun that shoots the shooter when it fires, is not a tool that is productive or beneficial. What sense does it make, to fire a bullet at my enemy, only to find that bullet back-firing on me, and lodged into my skull?

Sure, there are some concerns about this tool's efficacy, but just as surely we know there have been occassions it HAS been effective (see brother Omo's post).

A tool that is merely "occasionally" effective, might as well not be effective at all.

In the meantime, there are tools that ARE nearly ALWAYS effective, that are merely sitting in storage, collective dust and rust.

If the goal is to use all tools in one's arsenal, then it makes far more sense to utilize a tool with a high rate of success, rather than fretting over one with a low batting average, that is more miss than hit.

We also know that if en masse we as a people REFUSE to vote, whatever our collective condition in this country is now, it can and will become much worse.

There has never been any proof of this. However, what has been proven, is the fact that:

*"They" do not want us participating in it to begin with. Why go where one is not wanted?

*As a result of the above, "they" are going to take this PRIVILEGE away from us, one that they never really wanted us to have....Making all of this a moot point.

It is analogous of hezbollah shooting their rockets at Israel during their conflict this summer.

Their rockets were largely ineffective. Most of them missed their mark and those that found it did little damage.

They kept firing them.

They didn't say - "90% of our rockets don't amount to squat so I'm going to sit on my hands and whine about Israel's superior firepower."

They kept firing those inept rockets, and eventually their continued bombardment helped lead to a psychological victory.

They didn't know in advance if their weaponry would affect the outcome, but they had enough sense to know it would've had ZERO effect if they didn't bother using it.

#1) All of this is rhetoric. When will black people move away from rhetoric, and into the realm of concrete information?

#2) According to this analogy, hezbollah was firing all their arsenal on one occasion: this summer. They were not firing for the past 41 years, like we have been.

I'm sure, even as primitive as Hezbollah's arsenal had been, they would have gone back to the drawing board, to re-evaluate the effectiveness of their arsenal, as well as their strategy.

Only a severely misinformed people would take several decades to realize that a strategy does not work.

I'd almost quarantee that next summer, Hezbollah will be far better prepared.

In the meantime, Next summer, the one pea-shooter gun that we have will be taken away from us anyways. Go figure.

We're depending too heavily on naked/raw intellect if we can "rationalize" sitting on the sidelines holding a weapon talking about how we've syllogistically deduced said weapon probably won't work, and are thus righteously justified in our inaction.

Au Contraire; I don't think we are depending on intellect at all. And no one her has demonstrated any such example, with regards to the proponents of voting.

Rhetoric is not intellect. Our people would be best served coming to this realization.

Unfortunately, none thus far have demonstrated the keenest knowledge of the electoral process. In the meantime, the words "hope" "Believe" "have Faith", etc have been uttered, all the while the call for information has been ignored.

Every subsequent poster fails to acknowledge the fact according to this country's own Pledge, Democracy and the Democratic party and process does not exsist, outside of a fanciful ideal, nor did the founding fathers and those who further their legacy have any intention of it exsisting.

Regarding the analogy of "Hezbollah" and all parts related, it's ironic that "Democracy" is being forced into the Middle East, by the very same entity that would seek to take "Democracy" away from some of it's own "Citizens" next year.

If Democracy were a true concept, then you could not forcibly take it away from one entity, while simultaneously forcing it upon another.

In the process, one side is fighting and dying in the same manner to keep "Democracy" (that they never had to begin with), as those who are fighting and dying to stave it off (because they don't want it).

Oh, what a Wicked Beast we serve.

In the meantime, the continuous statements about "inaction" are blatantly false.

It has been stated and demonstrated that:

#1) Just because people opt not to vote, does not mean that are in the meantime inert;

#2) Many of those who do vote, do so to justify their laziness in all other aspects.

How easy is it, to merely say, "Hey, I voted: I honored my ancestors, and exercised my 'rights'.........." than it is to say (and do): "Hey Brother, I am hitting the bricks every day, effecting change in my community; I'm improving health, disseminating intellect, helping to create jobs, etc, all of which will advance and uplift my community....AND, I'm not waiting for the DEVIL to do it, based on a "vote" that he won't even recognize".

If rhetoric is all that we have to justify voting, then it (the rhetoric and the voting) is utterly useless, as one useless thing cannot justify the exsistence of another useless thing.

PEACE

kemetkind

11-04-2006, 09:14 AM

To quote one of my favorite MC"s, HOLOCAUST, from the WU-TANG CLAN:

"We rage against machines, and protest at pointless venues/
While every dollar that you spend, enables it to continue......"

--Midnight In The Garden Of Good And Evil

Just because our ancestors engaged in it, does not make it correct.

There is a such thing as a "DARK DECEASED"; that is, an ancestor that has cursed his lineage with wrongful or misguided deeds.

His/her progeny then has to put forth extra spiritual work, to not only clear their Kha if this unclean energy, but also lay the groundwork for future generations of their lineage.

I for one, am not interested in continuing to make excuses and justifications for the mishaps of our ancestors. Just because they are our ancestors, does not mean that they had not been misinformed.

What will the future generations say, about the misdeeds that many of our people at present--who will at that time become our children's ancestors--when they review their history (our present)?

Will they justify gang-banging, and drug usage, and teen pregancy? By your logic, their doing so would be no less justified.

The fact remains, that we blindly follow out of tradition. That is not honoring our ancestors. True honor would be to learn from the mistakes that they made, and not continue to make them.

A gun that shoots the shooter when it fires, is not a tool that is productive or beneficial. What sense does it make, to fire a bullet at my enemy, only to find that bullet back-firing on me, and lodged into my skull?

A tool that is merely "occasionally" effective, might as well not be effective at all.

In the meantime, there are tools that ARE nearly ALWAYS effective, that are merely sitting in storage, collective dust and rust.

If the goal is to use all tools in one's arsenal, then it makes far more sense to utilize a tool with a high rate of success, rather than fretting over one with a low batting average, that is more miss than hit.

There has never been any proof of this. However, what has been proven, is the fact that:

*"They" do not want us participating in it to begin with. Why go where one is not wanted?

*As a result of the above, "they" are going to take this PRIVILEGE away from us, one that they never really wanted us to have....Making all of this a moot point.

#1) All of this is rhetoric. When will black people move away from rhetoric, and into the realm of concrete information?

#2) According to this analogy, hezbollah was firing all their arsenal on one occasion: this summer. They were not firing for the past 41 years, like we have been.

I'm sure, even as primitive as Hezbollah's arsenal had been, they would have gone back to the drawing board, to re-evaluate the effectiveness of their arsenal, as well as their strategy.

Only a severely misinformed people would take several decades to realize that a strategy does not work.

I'd almost quarantee that next summer, Hezbollah will be far better prepared.

In the meantime, Next summer, the one pea-shooter gun that we have will be taken away from us anyways. Go figure.

Au Contraire; I don't think we are depending on intellect at all. And no one her has demonstrated any such example, with regards to the proponents of voting.

Rhetoric is not intellect. Our people would be best served coming to this realization.

Unfortunately, none thus far have demonstrated the keenest knowledge of the electoral process. In the meantime, the words "hope" "Believe" "have Faith", etc have been uttered, all the while the call for information has been ignored.

Every subsequent poster fails to acknowledge the fact according to this country's own Pledge, Democracy and the Democratic party and process does not exsist, outside of a fanciful ideal, nor did the founding fathers and those who further their legacy have any intention of it exsisting.

Regarding the analogy of "Hezbollah" and all parts related, it's ironic that "Democracy" is being forced into the Middle East, by the very same entity that would seek to take "Democracy" away from some of it's own "Citizens" next year.

If Democracy were a true concept, then you could not forcibly take it away from one entity, while simultaneously forcing it upon another.

In the process, one side is fighting and dying in the same manner to keep "Democracy" (that they never had to begin with), as those who are fighting and dying to stave it off (because they don't want it).

Oh, what a Wicked Beast we serve.

In the meantime, the continuous statements about "inaction" are blatantly false.

It has been stated and demonstrated that:

#1) Just because people opt not to vote, does not mean that are in the meantime inert;

#2) Many of those who do vote, do so to justify their laziness in all other aspects.

How easy is it, to merely say, "Hey, I voted: I honored my ancestors, and exercised my 'rights'.........." than it is to say (and do): "Hey Brother, I am hitting the bricks every day, effecting change in my community; I'm improving health, disseminating intellect, helping to create jobs, etc, all of which will advance and uplift my community....AND, I'm not waiting for the DEVIL to do it, based on a "vote" that he won't even recognize".

If rhetoric is all that we have to justify voting, then it (the rhetoric and the voting) is utterly useless, as one useless thing cannot justify the exsistence of another useless thing.

PEACE

If you, and those of similar "intellect", are content to remain in america as Black men and willfully forfeit your vote, so be it.

There are gaping holes in most all of your arguments in this thread...but as brother Lazarus mentioned yesterday, this amounts to a "trap"...one of senseless dialogue.

It's not worth the time.

SAMURAI36

11-04-2006, 09:27 AM

If you, and those of similar "intellect", are content to remain in america as Black men and willfully forfeit your vote, so be it.

That is not my ultimate goal, but fair enough.

There are gaping holes in most all of your arguments in this thread...

Yet, instead of filling these "gaping holes", your arguments that you rebut with, are filled with even more holes.

Merely telling me that I have gaping holes, does not alone substantiate any such claim. Especially when you have no intention of showing and proving, opting instead to forfeit the discussion.

I have never stated that my perspective, on this, nor any other matter, is untenable. But at least I'm willing to defend my perspective, until comes such a time when I am no longer able to.

but as brother Lazarus mentioned yesterday, this amounts to a "trap"...one of senseless dialogue.

It's not worth the time.

Fair enough; however, as proponents of voting, both of your respective forfeitures all the more solidify my own personal reasons as to why I opt to not vote....... If you cannot actively demonstrate the concrete reasoning for voting, beyond a passive-aggressive ideal of "it won't hurt not to" ("senseless dialogue" indeed), then you should indeed concede the point.

PEACE

jamesfrmphilly

11-04-2006, 11:17 AM

That is not my ultimate goal, but fair enough.

Yet, instead of filling these "gaping holes", your arguments that you rebut with, are filled with even more holes.

Merely telling me that I have gaping holes, does not alone substantiate any such claim. Especially when you have no intention of showing and proving, opting instead to forfeit the discussion.

I have never stated that my perspective, on this, nor any other matter, is untenable. But at least I'm willing to defend my perspective, until comes such a time when I am no longer able to.

Fair enough; however, as proponents of voting, both of your respective forfeitures all the more solidify my own personal reasons as to why I opt to not vote....... If you cannot actively demonstrate the concrete reasoning for voting, beyond a passive-aggressive ideal of "it won't hurt not to" ("senseless dialogue" indeed), then you should indeed concede the point.

PEACE
i'll vote for you, to, while i'm there..........

SAMURAI36

11-04-2006, 11:25 AM

i'll vote for you, to, while i'm there..........

LOL, OK...... :lol:

That Jones Boy

11-06-2006, 02:10 AM

Keita Kenyatta

11-06-2006, 09:31 AM

The question isn't about voting...it's about knowing what you're voting for. If you vote then vote to MAKE THEM ENFORCE THEIR OWN LAWS...if you can't vote for that, knowing that their laws affect you too, then you don't have any reason voting...PERIOD!!!

omowalejabali

11-06-2006, 05:53 PM

Hardly ever can't see the point both parties are self serving and selfish in general and neither have done a whole lot for black folk.
so maybe I might be tempted to make an anti vote to keep Bush/republicans out out but thats about it.
now some people insist we should vote but I don't get why yes I know there was a big fight to win us the right to vote, but right is the operative word can't see why it should be considered a must do.
neither party is any good to me.
Why the MUST vote if the choice were between the KKK and the Neo nazis should I still vote?
And many would argue that the present choices aren't a whole lot better than the aforementioned would be.

Have you ever voted for an independent party candidate?

Have you ever registered as an independent?

If the answer to either question is no then I suggest trying the system "independently" before deciding not to exercise your right to vote.

In many local and state elections there are ballot initiatives that directly affect your tax base, your property taxes, your community development, road construction, public utility rates, charter amendments, etc.

Why not engage in a decision making process in which you can play an active role rather than leaving decisions to others without any input your Self?

Monetary

11-06-2006, 06:56 PM

Thanks for the links. You provided some very good information to the Family. I applaud you for that.

HOWEVER, we must seriously take a look at this situation...the WHOLE situation that we, as a people, have faced, are facing, and will continue to face if we do not address it. We must find a way to participate in the decision-making process that involves OUR people. No matter how difficult that may be. No matter how many discouraging examples someone may come up with to deter us from this challenge...this fight. We MUST continue the fight regardless.

I believe that we must participate at ever level of the decision-making process in city, state and federal government. We must have people who have our best interest at heart. People will work together to fight for us on ever issue that comes before them. In order for them to get there, they must be VOTED in. That is where we come in at. We must hold the government (city, state and federal) accountable for any decisions that are made...and ride them until they amend their mistakes. This is the ONLY way we will get the justice that we seek...the justice that we deserve.

Participating in the decision-making process no matter where we are is essential. If we were in a country on the continent of Africa, the same conduct applies. We must NOT sit idly by and let others determine our fate because of injustices to us in the past.

We really need to sit down and think this problem through thoroughly and stop applying a bandaid to a gash or not participate at all in this process by doing nothing as others rule over us. Refusing to participate in this system will slowly lead to subtle slavery.

Peace....

SAMURAI36

11-06-2006, 07:13 PM

Thanks for the links. You provided some very good information to the Family. I applaud you for that.

No probs. :)

HOWEVER, we must seriously take a look at this situation...the WHOLE situation that we, as a people, have faced, are facing, and will continue to face if we do not address it. We must find a way to participate in the decision-making process that involves OUR people. No matter how difficult that may be. No matter how many discouraging examples someone may come up with to deter us from this challenge...this fight. We MUST continue the fight regardless.

I agree; however, that does not necessarily include furthering the scheme. There are plenty of things that our people can and often do engage in, that have nothing to do with politics, that help to advance our people.

I believe that we must participate at ever level of the decision-making process in city, state and federal government. We must have people who have our best interest at heart. People will work together to fight for us on ever issue that comes before them. In order for them to get there, they must be VOTED in. That is where we come in at. We must hold the government (city, state and federal) accountable for any decisions that are made...and ride them until they amend their mistakes. This is the ONLY way we will get the justice that we seek...the justice that we deserve.

Sorry, but I continue to disagree with this.

Participating in the decision-making process no matter where we are is essential. If we were in a country on the continent of Africa, the same conduct applies. We must NOT sit idly by and let others determine our fate because of injustices to us in the past.

If we were in Africa, then all of this would be merely a moot point.

In an African goverment, where Africans make decisions for Africans, I have no problem with.....With is why I thoroughly support the AU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union

That is where our energies should go; it has been theorized, that if African Americans can consolidate their resources (financial, intellectual, etc), we can perhaps join the AU.

Do you not think that America plays a significant part in the EU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu

We really need to sit down and think this problem through thoroughly and stop applying a bandaid to a gash or not participate at all in this process by doing nothing as others rule over us. Refusing to participate in this system will slowly lead to subtle slavery.

Peace....

I agree, but I also think that just participating is merely one aspect of that "Band-Aid".

As I have mentioned here, there are other opportunities

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