I know in the African American community the overwhelming majority of children are supposed to be raised without their father's involvement. I know this because the "statistics" say so. I know because I have heard countless "stories" of African Americans growing up without their fathers. Yet despite all of these reports & accounts...I continue to see African American fathers with their children on a daily basis.

I just got back from the store where I noticed a number of black men with their children. I was eating at Taco Bell with Mrs. PanAfrica, where once again I spotted a black man with his children. In some case these men are with the mothers as well, at other times they are with their children alone. However when ever I notice a black man with his children, I take note. I do this so often I wonder why I continue (as I said, I see them every day)? However even as I ask the question, I know the answer: I take note of the number of black men with their children, because black men aren't suppose to be with their children.

This is the stereotype of black men, and with each passing day, I am seeing it as just a stereotype. Indeed I believe that instead of taking mental notes, I am going to start taking pictures. Then the next time I see a news report about the lack of black male involvement in their children's lives, I can send them my portfolio as a rebuttal! I think I'll start with my family

Yeah.....the news does not take into account that a father can live in a different home from his kids and still be in their lives....also, it would not be "news worthy" to show the good situations where fathers (whether married to the mother or not) are doing what they are supposed to.

Yeah.....the news does not take into account that a father can live in a different home from his kids and still be in their lives....also, it would not be "news worthy" to show the good situations where fathers (whether married to the mother or not) are doing what they are supposed to.

Absolutely MrBlak:

The stats on out of wedlock births in the African American community (upwards of 70% according to some sources) automatically assumes no involvement of the father. The news reports on these stats imply the same. However my eyes suggest differently!

Pan when my children were small, and their dad used to take them places, he would tell me how he was the only black dad, or one of a few. I noticed the same. But nowadays I do notice many more. By the same token, now I notice more fathers of other races as well. Perhaps there are more men in general taking their children on outings, etc. than there used to be, regardless of race....I know that I often went places with my dad so, those so called statistics never applied to me.

so true they have today steped up more sort of speak

A lot of times I catch myself talking about how my daughter's father isn't there for her. I don't say it to be stereotypical but I say it because it is what it is. I see it daily with friends, co-workers, and family. It is a stereotype to an extent. But also I am beginning to see a lot of black men with their white girlfriend and mixed babies as a family too. That is a whole different thread but does that count? Those children are Black too and where I live I always see the Black man with his mixed kids. I hardly see the Black man with his Black lady and his Black kid(s). Unless they're married.

But also I am beginning to see a lot of black men with their white girlfriend and mixed babies as a family too. That is a whole different thread but does that count? Those children are Black too and where I live I always see the Black man with his mixed kids. I hardly see the Black man with his Black lady and his Black kid(s). Unless they're married.

I believe that if you have children, you should take care of them...regardless of it is with a black woman or white woman. A black man who has bi-racial children still deserves recognition for providing & spending time with them.

I don't know if you are suggesting that a Black Man is more likely to care for a child that he has with a white woman over a black woman. If this is what you are saying...I don't know if I believe that. I know black men who ignore children with white women, as well as those who ignore children with black women. I really believe the relationship with the particular woman matters more than the race of the woman.

Now I am a black man with a black woman, and taking care of my daughter by this woman. However I am also married, and was married when I had my daughter. Does this make a difference? I believe it does..it is easier to be involved with children when they are with you. This is not to say that no man should be involved with children if they aren't married to the mother, but again it makes the situation easier. When you are living two seperate lives (different house, city, state, etc)...it is much more difficult to get together. However, it still happens....there are more black fathers involved in their children's lives than the media will ever admit!

I love seeing black men with black children. That may sound funny to some, but here in Seattle I'll see black men with Asian kids or white kids...kids that are obviously not his. I can't help but wonder if he had black kids somewhere wanting his attention.

At any rate, my daughter's father never wanted a relationship with her outside of occasional phone calls. Although my daughter is his oldest child, he felt his "seeds" were meant to create boys and his interest was solely in bonding with his 4 boys. But my ex who I was with for 5 years loved my daughter, walked her to school, took her to the park and to swimming lessons and I always treated his girls the same. He and I are still friends and my daughter still talks to him on a regular basis.

My father has also spent quite a bit of time with her.

my daughter's father never wanted a relationship with her outside of occasional phone calls. Although my daughter is his oldest child, he felt his "seeds" were meant to create boys and his interest was solely in bonding with his 4 boys.

This is an ignorant attitude; however, it is one I've heard before. This is also something that women need to be aware of before you have children with a man (particularly if you aren't married). I think if a man is not mature enough to love all his children (female & male)...he is not mature enough to have children at all. That being the case...ladies if you aren't on the pill...get on it, and make him use a condom!

I hear you Pan, but we almost got married...and there was no sign of his attitude regarding the sex of a child prior to this. While I was pregnant he got involved with the 5 percent nation....and changed his views and his name. (which is why we did not marry) He then started becoming increasingly hateful which was a huge contrast to him being a "nerdy" loving type of guy. By the time my daughter was born he was convinced that he was supposed to only bear sons...and that I should have also bore him a son...as if it were my fault. LMAO!

I was just saying that the Black men are with their mixed babies more in MY area. It just seems like the thing to do, I don't know if it's the location and they're bored. I personally don't plan on dating outside of my race because I have no desire to. Even though I have seen many men come and go in my life leaving me hurt and my daughter's dad is one of those men. I still stay true to my Black men because it's nothing like them.

While I was pregnant he got involved with the 5 percent nation....and changed his views and his name. (which is why we did not marry) He then started becoming increasingly hateful which was a huge contrast to him being a "nerdy" loving type of guy. By the time my daughter was born he was convinced that he was supposed to only bear sons...and that I should have also bore him a son...as if it were my fault.

CarrieMonet:

No this was certainly not your fault, as it is the male sperm which decides the sex of a child (many men forget this though). Again this speaks to the maturity of your ex. The change you described was quite radical though. What attracted you ex to the 5 percent nation, and why did he wait until you were pregnant? I find it hard to believe that he could have gone through such a extreme transformation....perhaps some of those ideas were already there?

CarrieMonet:

No this was certainly not your fault, as it is the male sperm which decides the sex of a child (many men forget this though). Again this speaks to the maturity of your ex. The change you described was quite radical though. What attracted you ex to the 5 percent nation, and why did he wait until you were pregnant? I find it hard to believe that he could have gone through such a extreme transformation....perhaps some of those ideas were already there?


My great grandmother was one of the founders of a very prominent church here in Seattle. Edwin's family were members of that church, his upbringing was really strict. He was a really sweet person, smart, quiet but funny, and very competitive - which is what I liked. His parents were extremely religious.

He got into a motorcycle accident towards the end of my pregnancy and was unconscious for 3 or 4 days. When he woke up, it was like he was a totally different person. He'd always had a job at the hospital, was a straight A student and was going to college. The accident shattered his hip and he decided to quit his job and quit college rather than take a desk job. In his "downtime" he met a man who was Muslim, he even introduced the man to my father explaining how the man was going to show him to be self employed. The things the man taught him was to hate white people so much that everywhere he went he talked about it (including on television), and the Seattle police made sure he stayed in jail. It was in jail that he took a more radical approach to being Muslim and met someone who was 5 percent nation. When he was released he went to Chicago and "studied" his religion and beliefs and came back to Seattle meaner than when he left.

So I make no excuses for him and the road he chose to go. It was sad to see him change so much because my daughter never got to know the person I MET and loved, all she knows is her father is a politcal prisoner of sorts. But luckily my father also tells her about her dad and what he WAS like.

Her father has now been locked up in prison since the 9/11 tragedy, the actual charges they have against him are sketchy. I'm sure it had everything to do with the fact that his name had been changed to ALLAH. He was on the public access channel saying he'd kill all Seattle police if they didn't give him his sons back. Two days later they arrested him...Sept. 18th 2001.

Truly sad.

That is sad...there isn't really much I can say about that other than, "I'm sorry"! I am glad that your daughter has her grandfather actively involved in her life...that makes a big difference!

My ex-husband sees our son every week, for 2,3 days at a time. He tells me that when he has our son, he takes him evreywhere with him, and people are surprised to see that. He gets comments like, "oh, you're a good man" "you seem to really love your son" and my personal favorite "Wow! She let you have him?" LOL. It's very common around here to see fathers and sons at the barbershop together, fathers and daughters at the movies together. Yes, I know folks who actually tell me they "can't stand" their kids. One of my friends (wel, we used to be friends) recently got divorced and moved to another state. I asked him where his kids were, and he said, and I quote: "They with they mama. I don't like them ni**** and they don't like me."

My ex-husband sees our son every week, for 2,3 days at a time. He tells me that when he has our son, he takes him evreywhere with him, and people are surprised to see that. He gets comments like, "oh, you're a good man" "you seem to really love your son" and my personal favorite "Wow! She let you have him?" LOL. It's very common around here to see fathers and sons at the barbershop together, fathers and daughters at the movies together.

This is great Toylin! SMH at your other statement!

This is an ignorant attitude; however, it is one I've heard before. This is also something that women need to be aware of before you have children with a man (particularly if you aren't married). I think if a man is not mature enough to love all his children (female & male)...he is not mature enough to have children at all. That being the case...ladies if you aren't on the pill...get on it, and make him use a condom!


Amen to that brotha, I thought that this was a no brainer in terms of having childen! Sistahs, don't have a child with a man unless you know a man for at least 2 years, and never do it unless you're married.

Sistahs, don't have a child with a man unless you know a man for at least 2 years, and never do it unless you're married.

Amen to this brother Sekhemu! It scares me how casually people have children today, with people they hardly know. Then these same people get upset that the man/woman they didn't know turns out to be a bad parents. Ladies if a man is not worthy to be your husband...if he doesn't think enough of you to make you his wife...how can you consider having a child with him? A child is the greatest commitment two people can make. A marriage can be annulled or ended with a divorce. However a child links two people together for life! Most people today avoid marriage because they fear the "responsibility" it requires, yet these same people have children with men/women they barely know! This is backwards reasoning!!

Indeed there are married couples who wait several years before having children, because they aren't sure if they are ready for "such a responsibility". Although marriages do fail, they imply a certain amount of committment to a person. Only the highest level of committment should give a person the sense of security that their partner is worthy of having a child with. The sense of security that a child with be raised in an environment, which is beneficial for their upbringing. Having a child with a person without this level of committment (marriage) is extremely risky. Although currently most of the children in our community are born without the benefit of marriage...without the benefit of committment...this is not the natural order of our community (and it is contrary to our original cultural). I don't think our prosperity will change, until our families are restored to their natural order. That won't happen until we as a people change our habits.

Sistahs, don't have a child with a man unless you know a man for at least 2 years, and never do it unless you're married.
I knew him longer than two years..before I was pregnant and THANK GOD we didn't get married as planned, if he would have turned out the same as he did I would have been miserable.

People change regardless of how long you know them...not all but many do.

I believe brother Sekhemu was just giving a number as an example. However I would take his suggestion and strech it even further. I wouldn't suggest people have children until they have been married for at least two years. Again having a child is a bigger committment than marriage!

THANK GOD we didn't get married as planned, if he would have turned out the same as he did I would have been miserable.

I don't want to offend you CarrieMonet, but how do you think your life would have been different if you married your daughter's father? Because of the change in your ex-boyfriend that you described, I assume that he would have made a lousy husband. However as you ended the relationship, you could have divorced him just the same. An ex-spouse can be a distant memory just as an ex-boyfriend can be...that is unless there are children involved! Because you have a child together your ex will be always be linked to you. A wedding band can be thrown away or sold...A child can not!

Well...Pan, I'll give you that. He tells me all the time that he loves me and he loves my daughter. I could be wrong... maybe if we did get married he would have turned out differently... although I really doubt it.

I could have dealt with him possibly acting out a little rebellious after the accident since he had always been so restricted in his upbringing. But he went to the extreme left, virtually wiping out the personality that I'd known and loved.

I drew the line (and still do) at his belief that he could create children outside of our relationship/marriage and that I should allow him to do so. Again, that did not become a topic of argument until he changed his beliefs...but once it did become an issue that pretty much killed our relationship.

I guess I feel a bit naive though...not sure why it would make things better had we been married, I doubt that we would be together today - more than likely we would have divorced and I feel no difference in claiming him as my daughter's father, than as an ex boyfriend versus an ex husband.

I drew the line (and still do) at his belief that he could create children outside of our relationship/marriage and that I should allow him to do so. Again, that did not become a topic of argument until he changed his beliefs...but once it did become an issue that pretty much killed our relationship.

As you should have CarrieMonet, you deserve that respect, and were within your right to draw this line. You have described your "situation" on this board (and in this thread) before, and I agree you have a "unique" case. Although I do wonder if your ex's strict upbringing & youth (you were obviously young, and I assume he was around the same age) had more to do with his transformation than the accident?

I have a lot of respect for you, and your opinions on this board. However as I'm sure you have observed, I am pretty focused on restoring the black family (which I believe is currently the biggest threat facing our community). Indeed this may be the biggest threat that has ever faced our community, as the entire fabric of our being as a community is being threatened. I do not believe in out of wedlock childbirth! Although I know it happens, and can understand some people make "mistakes" in their youth. When a community like ours has the majority of their children born without the benefit of marriage (70% according to some estimates), the prosperity & continuity of that community is threatened.

What alarms me especially about this trend is that seemingly the majority of us have no problem with this trend. Even those that do see a problem with it, are not making the behavioral modifications necessary to change it. I find one of the attitudes that contributes to this pattern is that most of us view marriage as a more serious commitment than parenthood, which in actuality is the complete opposite. I try to counter this belief through education and example.

As you should have CarrieMonet, you deserve that respect, and were within your right to draw this line. You have described your "situation" on this board (and in this thread) before, and I agree you have a "unique" case. Although I do wonder if your ex's strict upbringing & youth (you were obviously young, and I assume he was around the same age) had more to do with his transformation than the accident?

I have a lot of respect for you, and your opinions on this board. However as I'm sure you have observed, I am pretty focused on restoring the black family (which I believe is currently the biggest threat facing our community). Indeed this may be the biggest threat that has ever faced our community, as the entire fabric of our being as a community is being threatened. I do not believe in out of wedlock childbirth! Although I know it happens, and can understand some people make "mistakes" in their youth. When a community like ours has the majority of their children born without the benefit of marriage (70% according to some estimates), the prosperity & continuity of that community is threatened.

What alarms me especially about this trend is that seemingly the majority of us have no problem with this trend. Even those that do see a problem with it, are not making the behavioral modifications necessary to change it. I find one of the attitudes that contributes to this pattern is that most of us view marriage as a more serious commitment than parenthood, which in actuality is the complete opposite. I try to counter this belief through education and example.

I do blame part of his transformation on the strict upbringing, I can't say the same for his youth considering he is now almost 39 years old and still feels the same about his parents (he hates his mother) and loaths anything overly religious.

I read a lot of what you have had to say regarding black families, broken or otherwise. I think what you found in your marriage is beautiful. In my situation once I was alone with my daughter I pretty much tried to avoid relationships. Technically I've only had one which lasted 5 years and again...he was and is still more like a father to my daughter than her own dad. When that relationship ended I thought it was best to raise my daughter without me getting involved with anyone until after she became a legal adult.

Deep down, I suppose I didn't want to be like my mother...who has been married 3 times. My parents have explained to me that they divorced for silly reasons...an argument that went wrong and neither wanted to apologize. Plus my mother's family would not butt out...which made matters worse. But my father and I have always been close, I never felt like I was from a broken family unit...despite the fact that we didn't live under the same roof.

I don't accept the "trend" as it is today, but I can only try to change it through my offspring....and I think she is on the right path.

I don't accept the "trend" as it is today, but I can only try to change it through my offspring....and I think she is on the right path.

That's wonderful Carrie! To change the subject somewhat, actually to bring it back to the original subject of disproving the stereotypes of black fathers. One of my favorite stories about how black fathers can be just as nurturing as white fathers (or how white fathers can be just as neglectful as black fathers), is the tale about my daughter's delivery:

When my daughter was born, my wife shared a hospital room with a white woman. Contrary to the stereotypes the black couple (my wife & I) were married, while the white woman was a single mother. I stayed with my wife during the entire 3 days of her hospital stay from the start of visiting hours to the end (which was from 7am to 10pm). The only time I left my wife & daughter was to buy food. During this time I changed my daughter, feed my wife, gave my wife a sponge bath, fetched her drinks, watched my daughter while she slept, and gave my wife any assistance that she needed.

On the other hand the white woman who shared a room with my wife got regular visits from her family & friends. But the child's father only showed up 2 times, and stayed only for a half hour each time!! Now this woman had a C-section, so she was in a lot of pain! Every time she got a phone call she would complain about her misery, and to make matters worse the baby was always crying. Yet despite all this her "boyfriend" could not stay more than a half hour, because he was "too tired" to stick around.

I don't take pleasure in other people's misfortune; however, I found the situation to be "ironic" that the black man was by his woman's side, while the white man was no where to be found! Needless to say this woman noticed the difference too, as did her family. I say all this to say that a good man is going to provide for his family no matter what his color. I also say this to point out that black men are some of the best fathers & husbands in the world!

I also say this to point out that black men are some of the best fathers & husbands in the world!
I agree! Maybe one day I'll know first hand how it feels to have a husband.

My ex-husband sees our son every week, for 2,3 days at a time. He tells me that when he has our son, he takes him evreywhere with him, and people are surprised to see that. He gets comments like, "oh, you're a good man" "you seem to really love your son" and my personal favorite "Wow! She let you have him?" LOL. It's very common around here to see fathers and sons at the barbershop together, fathers and daughters at the movies together. Yes, I know folks who actually tell me they "can't stand" their kids. One of my friends (wel, we used to be friends) recently got divorced and moved to another state. I asked him where his kids were, and he said, and I quote: "They with they mama. I don't like them ni**** and they don't like me."


Could this be a case where the man is hurting, and maybe the kids have said things to him that hurt him. I know women that have tried to completely destroy the father for reasons that only they know.

Could this be a case where the man is hurting, and maybe the kids have said things to him that hurt him. I know women that have tried to completely destroy the father for reasons that only they know.

This could be a case where the mother is trying to turn the children against the father (which happens too often). Without knowing the people sister Toylin was talking about, I can not say for certain. Too many people in our society use children as weapons against their ex! This is extremely selfish, and while it hurts the ex (man or woman) initially, ultimately it hurts the children the most! Children who are denied access to a parent, not because of the parent's lack of concern, but do to another parent's private war....often become bitter! A parent who truly loves their children seeks out the best for them. This includes allowing them to have a relationship with their father, regardless of how much he may have hurt or disappointed the mother!

This could be a case where the mother is trying to turn the children against the father (which happens too often). Without knowing the people sister Toylin was talking about, I can not say for certain. Too many people in our society use children as weapons against their ex! This is extremely selfish, and while it hurts the ex (man or woman) initially, ultimately it hurts the children the most! Children who are denied access to a parent, not because of the parent's lack of concern, but do to another parent's private war....often become bitter! A parent who truly loves their children seeks out the best for them. This includes allowing them to have a relationship with their father, regardless of how much he may have hurt or disappointed the mother!

Yes this is what I was thinking could be the case.....That is the only reason that I know a person would respond in such a way......

Late comer to this thread just want to say I have 7 children all from one woman my wife and we are together still after 19yrs of marraige

Late comer to this thread just want to say I have 7 children all from one woman my wife and we are together still after 19yrs of marraige

I want to commend you brother Kwaku, and thank you for adding to this thread!

I dont live wid mah babys momma. WORD But ah sent some child suppo't payment and visit wheneva I kin. Bein a pops aint easy, when ya' gots little respect fo yo self its hard tlet cho kids see ya likes dat. Man

Based on this post (and the others you have written), you are not the type of man I dedicated this thread to. Whenever you "kin" visit your children should be every day (at least everyweek). Sending child support payments should not be an issue, because a real man financially supports his children consistantly.

well said brutha Pan ............