does strict fidelity in marriage and prohibition of extra marital sex have a basis in traditional African culture?
what about premarital sex?

AAs on this site seem to forbid it all.
how is it handled in Africa?

It depends on the culture you are talking about. Some African cultures are extremely strict about sexual fidelity (calling for death to those who commit adultery). Also some ethnic groups will call off a wedding if a woman is not proven to be a virgin on the wedding day. On the other hand some ethnic groups prefer a woman to be pregnant before a wedding to prove fertility...it truly depends on the culture/ethnic group you are talking about. Africa is too immense a continent to apply this question in general.

It depends on the culture you are talking about. Some African cultures are extremely strict about sexual fidelity (calling for death to those who commit adultery). Also some ethnic groups will call off a wedding if a woman is not proven to be a virgin on the wedding day. On the other hand some ethnic groups prefer a woman to be pregnant before a wedding to prove fertility...it truly depends on the culture/ethnic group you are talking about. Africa is too immense a continent to apply this question in general.
is the question answerable?
how could it be phrased so it can be answered?
are the strict cultures black or Islamic?

most nationalists are very conservative in their sexual views.
i would like to know if this is something we bring with us from home or if it's something we learn form the puritans that we share this country with.

how can i learn that? :help:

There are black & islamic cultures which have strict sexual mores, but the amount are so extensive that I could not do them justice in this post. You have to study individual ethnic groups to get your answer brother James.

It depends on the culture you are talking about. Some African cultures are extremely strict about sexual fidelity (calling for death to those who commit adultery). Also some ethnic groups will call off a wedding if a woman is not proven to be a virgin on the wedding day. On the other hand some ethnic groups prefer a woman to be pregnant before a wedding to prove fertility...it truly depends on the culture/ethnic group you are talking about. Africa is too immense a continent to apply this question in general.

Hey, Pan, for a guy who couldn't "explain" what sexual fidelity means in African Culture, you did a helluva job of doing it - at least to my understanding...(smile!) Considering that "African Culture" is a major misnomer, attempting to explain such a thing in general terms would be impossible... It's more like African Culture(S) rather than one homogenous entity, right???

Peace!
Isaiah

Thank you brother Isaiah!

how bout west Africa, Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast.
what's the deal there? or is that still to broad?

what is the foundation for the american nationalists being so strict in their sexual thinking?
does it come from here or does it come from there?

Okay BrotherJamesfromPhilly...I'll give you some specifics:

Nigeria:

-In the Yoruba culture, it is common nowadays for the bride to be pregnant before the wedding, because the couple wants to ensure that they can have children (although traditionally both were suppose to be virgins).

-Among the Igbo, tradition still demands that both bride & groom (particularly the bride) be virgins.

Ghana:

-In the Ashante culture, it was also common for the bride to be a virgin. One thing you have to realize is that Africans take marriage more seriously than Europeans. Africans in general screen their potential partners and their families for any undesirable traits (contagious diseases, criminal backgrounds, common religious background, violent behavior, etc). Family interaction is an important part of the marriage process and both bride and groom will be checked out to see if they are respectable people. These methods have become loss in our Americanization; however, if they continued, I believe more of our marriages would be successful.

Equatorial Guinea:

-The Bubi also require that a woman be a virgin before marriage. In addition infidelity is punished for both males & females (usually public beatings, but harsher methods have been known).

-In Muslim cultures not only are women required to be virgins, but adultery can be punishable by death!

-These are just a few examples of many.

:teach: brotha man! Now that's some African Culture(s) teaching... :thanks: Yeah! :rolling:

Peace!
Isaiah

makes me glad to be an american

AAs on this site seem to forbid it all.

we don't forbid Sister Serena from dressing as provocatively as she wants ... :wink:

:heart:

Destee

Okay BrotherJamesfromPhilly...I'll give you some specifics:

Nigeria:

-In the Yoruba culture, it is common nowadays for the bride to be pregnant before the wedding, because the couple wants to ensure that they can have children (although traditionally both were suppose to be virgins).

-Among the Igbo, tradition still demands that both bride & groom (particularly the bride) be virgins.

Ghana:

-In the Ashante culture, it was also common for the bride to be a virgin. One thing you have to realize is that Africans take marriage more seriously than Europeans. Africans in general screen their potential partners and their families for any undesirable traits (contagious diseases, criminal backgrounds, common religious background, violent behavior, etc). Family interaction is an important part of the marriage process and both bride and groom will be checked out to see if they are respectable people. These methods have become loss in our Americanization; however, if they continued, I believe more of our marriages would be successful.

Equatorial Guinea:

-The Bubi also require that a woman be a virgin before marriage. In addition infidelity is punished for both males & females (usually public beatings, but harsher methods have been known).

-In Muslim cultures not only are women required to be virgins, but adultery can be punishable by death!

-These are just a few examples of many.
so there are NO African cultures where there is sexual freedom?

we don't forbid Sister Serena from dressing as provocatively as she wants ... :wink:

:heart:

Destee
there is a major distinction between private behavior and public display.

what you do in your bedroom is your own business.
what you do in front of international TV is the community's business.
i've had several people challenge me on this point, i don't understand why folk don't see it clearly.

i go by the olde school rule, "a lady in the living room and a whore in the bedroom".

so there are NO African cultures where there is sexual freedom?

Jomo Kenyatta in his book, Facing Mt. Kenya, wrote about some of the sexual practices of the Gikuyu. Among the Gikuyu, who practice polygamy, it was customary for men to provide one of their wives to a male guest. I would consider this to be sexual freedom.

It has been some years since I've read this book, so I'll have to get back to you later about some more specific details.

James, aint no freadeak like an ole freadeak, huh???(smile!) By the way you rap, brotha, sounds like you the circus is always in town with J.fromPhilly in town(smile!) BTW, does what you are saying further African Culture???(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

BTW, does what you are saying further African Culture???(smile!)
are we all here charged to "further african culture"?, i didn't realize.

as a fine artist i have been "furthering african culture" for many years.
if you look at my avatars, you will see my work, as i have been using them as a rotating gallery.

i have been an african american cultural nationalist for over 40 years now.
so, while my views may not agree with the group's, they are, indeed, quite firmly rooted.

i'm a child of the sixties and i have had a broader experience than some.
i've lived communally and i have lived in open relationships.
i may well be one of the last black hippies left.

it might not hurt folks to consider what i say, as i may not be around much longer.

Thank you Brother Pan for the history lesson on African cultures. But now that leads me to broaden Brother James' question to put a slightly different spin on the topic. Do you happen to know the root of the whole "virgin" issue is? Where did the whole notion of virginity stem from? Does it apply to age of people as well? What about men/women who used to be married but are now divorced? Do the same rules apply?

Queenie :spinstar:

Sister NN Queen:

I don't know of any society that does not prefer women to be anything other than virgins when they marry (I believe that is universal across the globe). One thing I can say is that in many African societies the average age for marriage is significantly younger (14-18) than in the United States. This of course makes it easier to marry a virgin.

are we all here charged to "further african culture"?, i didn't realize.

James, now, come on, brotha(LOL!) I guess you thought that only Serena and R. Kelly had that gig sewed up(smile!) You somethin', brotha - somethin' else altogether...

Peace!
Isaiah

i don't have quite the same media exposure as they do.

:grin: Some of how we feel about infidelity comes from our parents and what we saw as kids..myself my mother had other "friends" and I learned how to do that same thing...granted it's a choice that I made and make but the seed was planted watching her do her thing...

Mississippi Red

I never said I was a good man only a man

As usual brother panafrica’s response was very informative. I agree with much of what brother panafrica has stated and would like to expound even further. Not only are African cultures more complicated and multiplexing than this question could explore, but the variables in most modern African cultures are the same as many other cultures. You have traditional and modern ethics and mores that have been influenced by outside intervention for decades.

There is no such thing as one original or a constant African cultural or sexual norm, even in pre-colonial African social history.

Also we need to stop using Euro-centric moral constructs to define our sexual proclivities or ethics (i.e., virginal black women, as compare to whorish black women).

Quote: jamesfrmphilly

“…most nationalists are very conservative in their sexual views.”

I think this is a misnomer. Many nationalists say one thing in open forums and in their personal lives practice something different. Matter of fact, I’ve seen just as much sexual freedom practiced among black nationalist as I have seen among other social groups, …if not more.

Virginity, at most, is just a temporary state of being and should never have been deemed as some sort of super-moral religious or social concept for women (or men, i.e., Catholic priest).


Peace,

Brother Sun Ship

the question i'm trying to get at is this:

i see most nationalists being so conservative in their views and i wonder if that is african based or did we pick that up from the europeans?

As usual brother panafrica’s response was very informative. I agree with much of what brother panafrica has stated and would like to expound even further. Not only are African cultures more complicated and multiplexing than this question could explore, but the variables in most modern African cultures are the same as many other cultures. You have traditional and modern ethics and mores that have been influenced by outside intervention for decades.

This is absolutely true brother SunShip! Many African nations are undergoing a crisis of youth (the breakdown of traditional values), as they become more aware of western values/culture/influence.

Also to illustrate how extensive and diverse Africa's people are. There are over 75 different Ethnic groups in Africa: The Acholi, Amhara, Ashanti, Azande, Bambara, Baoule, Bemba, Berber, Bobo, Bubi (Mrs. PanAfrica's group), Chagga, Chokwe, Dan, Dinka, Dogon, Ewe, Fang, Fulani, Ganda, Gisu, Hausa, Ibo, Iteso, Jie, Kakwa, Kamba, Kanuri, KhoiKhoi, Kikuyu, Kongo, Kpelle, Kru, Kuba, Kung, Lozi, Luba, Lunda, Lou, Makonde, Makua, Malinke, Manding, Margi, Masai, Mbundu, Mbuti, Mende, Mongo, Mossi, Ndebele, Nuer, Nupe, Nyamwezi, Nyoro, Oromo, Ovimbundu, Pende, Senufo, Shona, Somali, Songye, Soninke, Sotho, Sukuma, Swazi, Tigre, Tiv, Tonga, Tswana, Turkana, Turu, Wolof, Xhosa, Yao, Yoruba, and Zulu.

Although some of these people fall under an umbrella group (like the Bantu for instance), and certain common beliefs/behaviors can be assigned to them. In reality there are also subdivisions within many of these ethnic groups. For example for my wife's people, the Bubi, language & custom varies by town. My father in-law & mother in-law both spoke different languages even though they both lived in the same country (a rather small country at that) & belonged to the same ethnic group. The same can be said for most African peoples. As a result it is clear that Sexual fidelity can not be assigned to Africa in general. One would have to explore the sexual beliefs of the over 75 different ethnic groups (as well as their subdivisions) that I listed. This would be an extensive study to say the least!!!

Peace Brother jamesfrmphilly,

Like I said before, I think Black Nationalists are just as diverse in their sexual orientation as anybody, including African tribes and ethnicities. I know nationalists who are poets, singers, musicians, activist and scholars and the list goes on. All have different ideas about sexuality, family/marriage and even Black Nationalism.

It is probably possible some clear African ideology about sex remain in our present African American culture, but remember it had to survive plantation breeding, white rape and pedophilia, black male castration, marriage being outlawed and other deviant practices during and after slavery that could distort and interrupt any social continuities from first generation African exiles brought here during the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Also, European cultural and religious indoctrination cannot be dismissed. Probably a lot of what we practice, we have invented out of necessity and our reactionary responses to this oppression.

I think, just short of being overly explicit, you may need to approach this query with more details.

Ashe,

Brother Sun Ship

i was born in 1942, graduated from high school in 1960 and traveled around playing music through much of the sixties.
coming of age in the sixties, i experienced "free love", communes, open relationships and various other permutations.
i had a ball (pardon the pun)

as i grew older, i became more and more of a nationalist.

i have never seen any nationalists who are diverse in their views.
the ones i run into are always quite conservative and moralistic.

i began to wonder if conservative sexual views just went with the territory.

even though i'm now retired from the field of battle, my views still remain open and free.
this leaves me, seemingly, considered an oddball to most folks on this forum.

the conservative sexual views of the nationalists closely resemble those of the WASP and the puritans.
so much so that i was wondering what the views were in africa.
i see africa as one big entity and so i don't break it down into the many different groups that you do.
looked at your way, my question may well be unanswerable.

i was just wondering where all this conservatism came from.
it wasn't around back in the day.

I know of Bi-sexual & Homosexual Nationalist....Kwasi Mfume has several children out of wedlock....I really don't see the conversative sexual views that you are talking about brother James. The only persons I know who promote sexual fidelity are Black Nationalist who also happen to be religious leaders (like Minister Farrakan); however, that is part of their mission.

I know of Bi-sexual & Homosexual Nationalist....Kwasi Mfume has several children out of wedlock....I really don't see the Conservative sexual views that you are talking about brother James. The only persons I know who promote sexual fidelity are Black Nationalist who also happen to be religious leaders (like Minister Farrakan); however, that is part of their mission.
well, i get the feeling that i am the only non conservative on this forum for example.
do you see conservative views here?

Dr Karenga is quite conservative and he is not a religious leader.
i said the nationalists that i run into, which is all i know.

are you of the position that black nationalists are free and open sexually in america?

I am of the position that it breaks down to individuals.

I am of the position that it breaks down to individuals.
well, i'm the only person i know who is both a black nationalist and also a believer in sexual freedom.
if you ever run into another, tell them to holla at me, i could sure use the company. :wave:

Write a book brotherjamesfromphilly...you might start a revolution!

well, i'm the only person i know who is both a black nationalist and also a believer in sexual freedom.
if you ever run into another, tell them to holla at me, i could sure use the company. :wave:


What exactly is a "black nationalist?"

:heart:

Destee

What exactly is a "black nationalist?"

:heart:

Destee
to me, it is a belief that black is equal to white.
some believe black is superior to white, but i believe equal.

in the american fine arts area, this is quite a radical view.

Pan Africanism espouse collective Black Nationalism at its core. Below is probably a classical and overly simplified definiton of (Black) nationalism from the dictionary.

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)

n.

1.) Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2.) The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3.) Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nation·al·ist adj. & n.
nation·al·istic adj.
nation·al·isti·cal·ly adv.

I think exploring the deeper ramifications of Black Nationalism is probably a thread in itself.

Peace,

Brother Sun

Excellent suggestion Brother Sun Ship and greetings! :wave:

Great discussion, btw...

Queenie :spinstar: