I always wonder why there are so many single parent households in the black communties? A topic in another forum prompted me to start this thread. Are black men the problem? Are black women the problem? Is there a lack of family values amongst black people nowadays? What is you opinion of this issue?

It stems from the sad state of black relationships. They are so brittle nd smash aprt easily. There is little trust and everyone is playing games....at least amongst those who get to play in "the game". It seems to me that many are left behind. The most marrige/family minded males are often single and alone barely able to get a daamn date while guys who just wanna screw around are forever getting women who wanna settle down, or who they end up knocking up.

There are responsible good women out there too that are left behind too. All the wrong connections are being made and that makes people bitter, making black relationships even more messed up.

Also, there is pure selfishness. Guys who wanted a reltionship, but not to take care of the seed they created....and women who want the man to support the baby, but refuse a permanent relationship with him becuase they dont wanna be tied down or decided they could do better. If they thought they could do better, why put themself in a position to get pregnant?? As for the guy, he gets bitter she rejected his offer and doesnt support the kid making the kid suffer.

Also, there are many people who are middle age that are getting divorced or were never married so it aint just young people....there are few role models for the young.

JMO

I think we lost way due to lack of faith and being true to ourselves
so many get married at young ages and really don't treasure the vows
of commitment we also have fewer role models who hold value in a marriage
to love is a secret vow held in the eyes of GOD we're having children at younger
ages that say we are not teaching them the values of commitment and how to
love a KING or QUEEN so play , cheating and disrespect come in we lose our
black women to other races for the lack of black men being true and fair in the
game call love loose tongue and women as well downing bruthas for lack of
this & that , it takes away any hope to stay together so we part on many
soft reasons in life everyone hold a different point of view the question is
WHERE DO IT END AND REBIRTH OF FAMILY MORALS AND LOVIN COMMITMENT
WITH VALUES START !???

I always wonder why there are so many single parent households in the black communties? A topic in another forum prompted me to start this thread. Are black men the problem? Are black women the problem? Is there a lack of family values amongst black people nowadays? What is you opinion of this issue?

This may sound funny, but bare with me. I think the reason why there are so many single parent homes is because of Single parent homes...lQQkin..
Did that make sense???..lol
O.K. when I lQQk at my friends, married and single, and there has been an issue of one cheating, the one cheating came from a single parent home.

Not to say that ALL single parent homes fail in raising children, but I think there is a connection that can't be ignored. A male not having a father figure in the home, or worse, having one who disrespects his mother, can't possibly know how to treat his mate. How can that male know how to respect a woman if he has never seen that example of a man. The same goes for a woman. If she grew up seeing her mother being treated bad by men, how can she learn to have respect for herself? How can either of them carry a relationship when all the examples of relationships have been bad ones?
When I separated, I blamed my husband for not being a man, and taking care of his responsibilities. It hit me one day, how could I be mad at him when he was screwed basically from the point of birth. His father didn't care about him, or support him in any way. On top of that his father had 2 other son in which he did care for, just think of how that must have made him feel...smh
He also had a stepfather who cheated on his mom alot and she allowed it. He brought beer and cancer sticks (cigarettes) in the house and let him drink and smoke...smh....
I'm angry at all the men that messed up his life, and me and my childrens lives.
That's why if you have a son or a daughter, watch what yo do and say. If you know you don't have anything positive to offer that child, then let them be. It's a start, maybe one day we can reverse this.
Peace
Nita

Man thats deep question
For me personally my father just like to club
Wasnt a father in the sense he was there emotionally for me
Yet was a man where he was there finacially for me
When I really needed him-To this day
He still clubs and parties all night
Its super crazy-My mother always laid back
Chill mode all the time-So maybe thats the reason
Yet me and my mother take shots of Tequila from timne to time
I use to cry about my father not spending time with me
But I learned there are harder things in life
Than worring about when my father would be home

So I think it deals alot with people
Not having there priorities in order

I always wonder why there are so many single parent households in the black communties? A topic in another forum prompted me to start this thread. Are black men the problem? Are black women the problem? Is there a lack of family values amongst black people nowadays? What is you opinion of this issue?


There is this current myth amongst sisters that you dont need or want a man getting in the femaoles way of raising THEIR child. This myth goes away right around the time the child becomes a teen.

There is also a belief, in spite of over 40 years of the feminist movement, that you can still entrap a man by having his baby

And some just stupidly dont protect themselves

There is this current myth amongst sisters that you dont need or want a man getting in the femaoles way of raising THEIR child. This myth goes away right around the time the child becomes a teen.

There is also a belief, in spite of over 40 years of the feminist movement, that you can still entrap a man by having his baby

And some just stupidly dont protect themselves

Yeah I can see what you mean

Boys that never become men

Boys that never become men

Its deeper than that sis
Believe that much deeper than that

Its deeper than that sis
Believe that much deeper than that

Why do you think there is?
Most women are more responsible than men.
When a woman tries to make it work the man has already mentally and physically moved on.
That's like asking why a black msn don't take care of his biological children but will move in with a women and take care of kids that are not even his.
Man and woman two different species, one wants to control and the other wants to dominate!

I think that we assimilate too much into mainstream society. We don't seem to have our own measures and beliefs about relationships, so we use "theirs". If we take time to stop, observe, and think we'd see that "their" relationships are worse than ours own.

Hotep

We must understand that we are at "War"! It has "Always" been this way from befor this present "Generation" was "Born". This is not a "Opinion" or a philosopic veiw of a thing...this is a "Historic" absolute "Reality"...and Europeans have been at war with (Us) so-called Africas for more than 5,000 years. After their "Invations" of (KMT) Africa and their "Savagery" spreading every ware they found (You) Africans and people of Color they Killed, Raped, Rrobed, Stole, Tricked, Lied, Deceived, Hoodwinked, Bamboozeled, Distorted, Fabricated, Spoiled, Lynched, Broke up Families, Spreaded "Their" False Religions, In-Slaved, Oppressed, Took your Names, took your true life away from you and here we are today wondering what has happen to "Us". For the first time in the "History" of the "Earth"!!! The so-called Black man has become too ignorant to deal with his Black-Woman?!! And on the other hand for the first thie in "Recorded-History"...the Black woman has become too ingorant to deal with her Black-Man?!! There is "No" argument today...that (You) the so-called Black African "Is" the "Origenal" people of the "Earth". We lived in compleat "Harmony" and raised "Beautiful-Families" for "Trillions" of years "Before" the "comeing" of the "Savage White People"!! Now all of a sudden in the last 400 years (We) The Black African has "Forgotten" how to treat each other in "Male-Female" relationships?? All of a sudden "We" are ingorant to the "Fatcs" of how it happen to "Us" and are pointing a "Dis-Respectful" finger at each other instead of pointing the finger at the "Reasons" for our "Ignorance and Lost of our Proper and Sane Minds". Today we call each other out of our names because we don't have our real names...we have the white man and white womans names that are not worthy of respect as long as a "Black-African" is wareing that name that represents nothing but "Slavery". No one respects a "Slave" not even the "Slaves" them self!! So as long as we continue to follow the example of a savage (European) people who only love "Money and Wealth" and will do anything to get it including "All" of the above and then some..."We" as a people will never in a billion years be successful in our "Relationships"...it is impossible!!! Slavery distroyed our ability to know our self and know our woman and to know our man as the "Mate". Today "All" of these Crazy, Filthy, Insane, Caotic, Dramatic, Foolish, Freakish, Disrespectful, Violent behaveyer is "Not" our origenal African Way. There is no such thing as a Low down no good dead beat black man except for those who follow the mind sets of the white suprimacy system that was forced on us during slavery. There is no such thing as a low down ***, who makes frequint trips to the "Abortion-Clinics", and says she don't need no man, Drama-Queen among the origenal Black African Queens of the planet Earth except those who follow the white suprimist system!! "People Know Thy Self" Return to your "Right-African-Mind" and return to "Sanity"!!!

Ase`

I would specify African American instead of saying black communities. Asking why there are so many single parent households in black communities implies that this is common among black communities worldwide, and fortunately this isn't the case. That being said, it is necessary to study why single parent households aren't as community among black communities in other parts of the world as it is in the US. From my observations the primary differences boil down to: Traditions, Expectations, and Behavior!

I would specify African American instead of saying black communities. Asking why there are so many single parent households in black communities implies that this is common among black communities worldwide, and fortunately this isn't the case. That being said, it is necessary to study why single parent households aren't as community among black communities in other parts of the world as it is in the US. From my observations the primary differences boil down to: Traditions, Expectations, and Behavior!

Here in the U.S it's very common!
Especially in the black communities!
I'm one of many!

There is this current myth amongst sisters that you dont need or want a man getting in the femaoles way of raising THEIR child. This myth goes away right around the time the child becomes a teen.

There is also a belief, in spite of over 40 years of the feminist movement, that you can still entrap a man by having his baby

And some just stupidly dont protect themselves

So, brother Kemetstry, it is all the sisters fault, huh???(LAUGH!)

The sisters chase the big, strong African man out of the house all over America, I guess... What kind of statement is THAT about the psyche of African American men??? My God help...

Peace!
Isaiah

So, brother Kemetstry, it is all the sisters fault, huh???(LAUGH!)

The sisters chase the big, strong African man out of the house all over America, I guess... What kind of statement is THAT about the psyche of African American men??? My God help...

Peace!
Isaiah

Hey Isaiah!:hearts3:

Hey Isaiah!:hearts3:
Hey, sister Cursed Heart, how you!?

Peace!
Isaiah

Hey, sister Cursed Heart, how you!?

Peace!
Isaiah
Tired!:weights: But good!:love:

To be perfectly honest, I think it's because some of our people think they can do it alone.

I know more than a few Black people who have made a concious decision to raise children on their own.

Obviously this is done for a myriad of reasons.

"The sisters chase the big, strong African man out of the house all over America, I guess... What kind of statement is THAT about the psyche of African American men??? My God help..."


This is true in a sense. There are a million and one reasons why the Black family is headed by single mothers across America. Believe it or not, it has one basic root-White Supremacy, and the complexities it brings upon people who are not welcome here(America) anyway(us). Since the family/home is where all gather at the end of the day, most likely this is the first to go to spoils in our communities, we have the children, mother, father, sometimes grandparents, and aunts/uncles who come home and drag in the negative energy from facing the world. This brings, tension, confusion, etc. Also, due to brainwashing, it is ingrained deep in many Black women's psyche that "she can survive", the Black man is the first to leave or get kicked to the curb, unfortunately. Yeah, I know,exhausted, but JMHO.

If they seperate mutually because of irreconsialable differences that's fine but black men have the tendencies to forget that they brought children into this world once the realtionship does not work out with the woman, and then have the nerve to make more babies!

If they seperate mutually because of irreconsialable differences that's fine but black men have the tendencies to forget that they brought children into this world once the realtionship does not work out with the woman, and then have the nerve to make more babies!

True, indeed, for a lot of the younger ones, leaving a baby is a way of saying F-you. That can be like a 21 year 'sentence' if you are not prepared.

So, brother Kemetstry, it is all the sisters fault, huh???(LAUGH!)

The sisters chase the big, strong African man out of the house all over America, I guess... What kind of statement is THAT about the psyche of African American men??? My God help...

Peace!
Isaiah


1. I never said anything was all sisters fault.

2. Some things ARE their fault

3. If they dont correct their part in this play, it still wont work

4. So attonement/admission, needs to be done together

So, brother Kemetstry, it is all the sisters fault, huh???(LAUGH!)

The sisters chase the big, strong African man out of the house all over America, I guess... What kind of statement is THAT about the psyche of African American men??? My God help...

Peace!
Isaiah


My statements come from actually asking sisters. I participated in the organization of the Million Woman March as well as, was a member of NOW. I dont speak these things in a vacuum

If they seperate mutually because of irreconsialable differences that's fine but black men have the tendencies to forget that they brought children into this world once the realtionship does not work out with the woman, and then have the nerve to make more babies!


Guys that are married/involved for extended periods of time, usually DONT forget. There have been studies showing that they are involved.

It is the Mookies that arent. Mookie usually doesnt stick around long enough to find out you're even pregnant. Or if he does, he usually is on to the next victim.

Why is Mookie so successful?

My statements come from actually asking sisters. I participated in the organization of the Million Woman March as well as, was a member of NOW. I dont speak these things in a vacuum

I would never want to be bothered with any man that I could chase away because I would have no respect for him.

If I could do that, that tells me that he's definitely gon fold when he's got to deal with the real enemy.

A MAN is not going to allow any woman to drive him away from his children.

I would never want to be bothered with any man that I could chase away because I would have no respect for him.

If I could do that, that tells me that he's definitely gon fold when he's got to deal with the real enemy.

A MAN is not going to allow any woman to drive him away from his children.


1. That is your issue. I think you will have long term issues with that attitude

2. Why should I have to fight the man all day long and then come home and fight you too? Arent you suppose to make our home a haven? If you cant do that, then of course the guy leaves.

3. I dont think you have a clue as to what a man is.

4. Dont take it personal, many sisters have a similar attitude. Which is a major reason they are alone. Relationships arent about YOU ( plural ), they are about US. I dont know any man worth his salt that will come home to drama every night

1. That is your issue. I think you will have long term issues with that attitude

2. Why should I have to fight the man all day long and then come home and fight you too? Arent you suppose to make our home a haven? If you cant do that, then of course the guy leaves.

3. I dont think you have a clue as to what a man is.

4. Dont take it personal, many sisters have a similar attitude. Which is a major reason they are alone. Relationships arent about YOU ( plural ), they are about US. I dont know any man worth his salt that will come home to drama every night

Remember, I have to fight the white man too since I'm out there working as a partial breadwinner these days. It's not my responsibility alone to make the home a haven. It's OUR responsibility since we're EQUAL partners.

We're also EQUAL partners in providing for and protecting our children and developing them to reach their potential.

Relationships are a TWO-WAY responsibility.
And don't take this personally, I don't think you have a clue either as to what a real man is. Many men have a similar attitude. I don't know any woman who wants to bust her butt everyday out there, come home to a 2nd shift of work, and deal with a man who'll throw up his hands and say F--K it and leave her and his children when the wind blows hard.

And I AM CONVINCED I have other options aside from getting myself into the single-mother situation that so many of my Sistas are in--that folks like you want to blame them for.

Guys that are married/involved for extended periods of time, usually DONT forget. There have been studies showing that they are involved.

It is the Mookies that arent. Mookie usually doesnt stick around long enough to find out you're even pregnant. Or if he does, he usually is on to the next victim.

Why is Mookie so successful?

I was married and then we had a daughter.
He worked hard and so did I .
He was smart ,business type,mason
,not even close to being a mookie!
He became abusive,alcoholic,cheater.
We split up after he jumped on me for waking him up out of a drunk stuper!
He came to see my baby for the first 2 months and then disappeared.
2yrs later I ran into him on my way to school.
He got back into her life for 3 months,moved and dissapeared again.
3yrs later my best friend saw him while getting her nails done and he didn't even recognize her because she had picked up weight.
He is in sales so she acted interested and took his business card.
I called he blamed me for everything as if I am suppose to play inch hi private i to make him a daddy!
He gets back into her life for 5 months,doing good,christmas and everything.
Mind you he had two more kids by different women through all of this.
He was engaged.
From christmas to april he disappeard again.
Came back the day before his wedding asking my daughter to be in it!
I was pissed but I'm a women and a mother first!
He said he didn't have any money to get her anything for his own dam wedding because he was getting everybody elses stuff! And his fiance was pregnant! I got a beautiful dress and shoes with my money for his wedding.
I spiraled her hair,did her makeup,earings only for her!
She came back the next day,brand new dress torn in half by his project ***** sisters kids . He was bragging on his honeymoon and said he would fix the dress!He never returned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not one once of childsupport ever given,i call he doesn't pick up,my baby calls he doesn't pick up!
Brand new house,new wife and a kid so now my baby doesn't exist!
This hurts me to see my baby suffer like this!
Anyway I'm getting emotional!:bye: :bye: :bye:

Remember, I have to fight the white man too since I'm out there working as a partial breadwinner these days. It's not my responsibility alone to make the home a haven. It's OUR responsibility since we're EQUAL partners.

We're also EQUAL partners in providing for and protecting our children and developing them to reach their potential.

Relationships are a TWO-WAY responsibility.
And don't take this personally, I don't think you have a clue either as to what a real man is. Many men have a similar attitude. I don't know any woman who wants to bust her butt everyday out there, come home to a 2nd shift of work, and deal with a man who'll throw up his hands and say F--K it and leave her and his children when the wind blows hard.

And I AM CONVINCED I have other options aside from getting myself into the single-mother situation that so many of my Sistas are in--that folks like you want to blame them for.


1. Sister, historically and even to the present, they dont kill females. They kill the men. Black women arent called an endangered species. You may have to fight, but not nearly as hard. There are no comparables here.

2. Though we may be both equal partners in many things, we arent equal in all. Again, if I have to fight ''the man'' and you as well, I dont kno wany brothers that will stay with you that long. I have proven qualifications and credentials as a man. I have yet to see you post yours

3. You may be convinced, but the stats say that more than likely ( 70% ) you'll end up on the short end of the stick. No amount of wishing and hoping is going to change that. It's not a matter of blame btw. It's their choice by law. They choose not to protect themselves sexually. They choose bad partners, who are not men. They choose to have the kid. They often choose to repeat the folly. Sisters average 2.3 oow births. Which means they didnt learn the lesson the 1st time. Having unprotected sex with something that isnt a man is foolish. Which says, many of you dont have a clue what a man is in the 1st place. Expecting that which isnt a man to suddenly become one, because you need him to is stupid. He can not be what he has never been taught to be. Continuing to enable this folly by embracing it, simply because it wears a skirt, is the worse crime against our race.

4. Get the mote out of your eyes 1st.

I was married and then we had a daughter.
He worked hard and so did I .
He was smart ,business type,mason
,not even close to being a mookie!
He became abusive,alcoholic,cheater.
We split up after he jumped on me for waking him up out of a drunk stuper!
He came to see my baby for the first 2 months and then disappeared.
2yrs later I ran into him on my way to school.
He got back into her life for 3 months,moved and dissapeared again.
3yrs later my best friend saw him while getting her nails done and he didn't even recognize her because she had picked up weight.
He is in sales so she acted interested and took his business card.
I called he blamed me for everything as if I am suppose to play inch hi private i to make him a daddy!
He gets back into her life for 5 months,doing good,christmas and everything.
Mind you he had two more kids by different women through all of this.
He was engaged.
From christmas to april he disappeard again.
Came back the day before his wedding asking my daughter to be in it!
I was pissed but I'm a women and a mother first!
He said he didn't have any money to get her anything for his own dam wedding because he was getting everybody elses stuff! And his fiance was pregnant! I got a beautiful dress and shoes with my money for his wedding.
I spiraled her hair,did her makeup,earings only for her!
She came back the next day,brand new dress torn in half by his project ***** sisters kids . He was bragging on his honeymoon and said he would fix the dress!He never returned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not one once of childsupport ever given,i call he doesn't pick up,my baby calls he doesn't pick up!
Brand new house,new wife and a kid so now my baby doesn't exist!
This hurts me to see my baby suffer like this!
Anyway I'm getting emotional!:bye: :bye: :bye:


I hear and feel your pain. But this is usually the exception. And we will agree to disagree about his Mookie status, k?

Btw, why havent you filed for support?

I was married and then we had a daughter.
He worked hard and so did I .
He was smart ,business type,mason
,not even close to being a mookie!
He became abusive,alcoholic,cheater.
We split up after he jumped on me for waking him up out of a drunk stuper!
He came to see my baby for the first 2 months and then disappeared.
2yrs later I ran into him on my way to school.
He got back into her life for 3 months,moved and dissapeared again.
3yrs later my best friend saw him while getting her nails done and he didn't even recognize her because she had picked up weight.
He is in sales so she acted interested and took his business card.
I called he blamed me for everything as if I am suppose to play inch hi private i to make him a daddy!
He gets back into her life for 5 months,doing good,christmas and everything.
Mind you he had two more kids by different women through all of this.
He was engaged.
From christmas to april he disappeard again.
Came back the day before his wedding asking my daughter to be in it!
I was pissed but I'm a women and a mother first!
He said he didn't have any money to get her anything for his own dam wedding because he was getting everybody elses stuff! And his fiance was pregnant! I got a beautiful dress and shoes with my money for his wedding.
I spiraled her hair,did her makeup,earings only for her!
She came back the next day,brand new dress torn in half by his project ***** sisters kids . He was bragging on his honeymoon and said he would fix the dress!He never returned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not one once of childsupport ever given,i call he doesn't pick up,my baby calls he doesn't pick up!
Brand new house,new wife and a kid so now my baby doesn't exist!
This hurts me to see my baby suffer like this!
Anyway I'm getting emotional!:bye: :bye: :bye:


You still didnt answer my initial question though


Dont get emotional. We all have scars. Emotionalism doesnt help

"Sister, historically and even to the present, they dont kill females. They kill the men. Black women arent called an endangered species. You may have to fight, but not nearly as hard. There are no comparables here."

Not necessarily so, if "the man" finds a Sister to be conscious/intimidating, she will be heaped into the mess right along with the Brothers, especially since a woman is the backbone/strength of a man. I am living proof that BW are under attack too. Many times BW go unnoticed because a man is distracted by a woman's sex appeal rather than her mind.......so much for the wise ol' WM...LOl jokes on him....and I soooooo get over in many ways. To kill man is to kill his woman. Vice versa. We're all inthe same boat. WM don't want to look like a bunch of bullies messin with women period, so they do it systematically.:geek:

"Sister, historically and even to the present, they dont kill females. They kill the men. Black women arent called an endangered species. You may have to fight, but not nearly as hard. There are no comparables here."

Not necessarily so, if "the man" finds a Sister to be conscious/intimidating, she will be heaped into the mess right along with the Brothers, especially since a woman is the backbone/strength of a man. I am living proof that BW are under attack too. Many times BW go unnoticed because a man is distracted by a woman's sex appeal rather than her mind.......so much for the wise ol' WM...LOl jokes on him....and I soooooo get over in many ways. To kill man is to kill his woman. Vice versa. We're all inthe same boat. WM don't want to look like a bunch of bullies messin with women period, so they do it systematically.:geek:


Dear, it is seldom that the bw is viewed as or becomes a threat. Historically, they dont kill you. This is documented. Not a matter of opinion. You are only a threat to us, because we love you so much. I will agree ultimately, we are in the same boat. But most of you just talk, not do.

All I ask, is that sisters stop giving so much to Mookie/rough necks/soldiers/thugs and start giving more play to the nice guys out there. Then, things may change.

Dear, it is seldom that the bw is viewed as or becomes a threat. Historically, they dont kill you. This is document. Not a matter of opinion. You are only a threat to us, because we love you so much. I will agree ultimately, we are in the same boat. But most of you just talk, not do.

All I ask, is that sisters stop giving so much to Mookie/rough necks/soldiers/thugs and start giving more play to the nice guys out there. Then, things may change.

Which is worse being psyhcologically slaughtered, outright killed period. I'd choose the quick death ove a slow drawn-out death(god forbid). Are you downplaying my role in the struggle. The ish is real with me, and I also understand how men are mostly threats to other men. I only persued nice guys in my lifetime, and my current is a nice guy/square. Being unthuggish doesn't necessariile equate being a good guy, at least in my experience. I don't want some turned out thug who can't grow emotionally with me, some ol' hard and calloused, hard-knock life livin' fool

Black women and children have been lynched and whipped historically. They have also been excluded from having the same rights black men have struggled for.

Just because white culture is trying to create a divide against black women & black men doesn't mean they have it 'better.' It's different, but not 'better.'

Which is worse being psyhcologically slaughtered, outright killed period. I'd choose the quick death ove a slow drawn-out death(god forbid). Are you downplaying my role in the struggle. The ish is real with me, and I also understand how men are mostly threats to other men. I only persued nice guys in my lifetime, and my current is a nice guy/square. Being unthuggish doesn't necessariile equate being a good guy, at least in my experience. I don't want some turned out thug who can't grow emotionally with me, some ol' hard and calloused, hard-knock life livin' fool


If you dont know that being lynched is worse, I cant help you. Being lynched is akin to crucifixtion. You really dont wanna go there, k?

No being nice doesnt necessarily equate. That is why chosing well is so important. But yall know what a nice guy is.

1. Sister, historically and even to the present, they dont kill females. They kill the men. Black women arent called an endangered species. You may have to fight, but not nearly as hard. There are no comparables here.

2. Though we may be both equal partners in many things, we arent equal in all. Again, if I have to fight ''the man'' and you as well, I dont kno wany brothers that will stay with you that long. I have proven qualifications and credentials as a man. I have yet to see you post yours

3. You may be convinced, but the stats say that more than likely ( 70% ) you'll end up on the short end of the stick. No amount of wishing and hoping is going to change that. It's not a matter of blame btw. It's their choice by law. They choose not to protect themselves sexually. They choose bad partners, who are not men. They choose to have the kid. They often choose to repeat the folly. Sisters average 2.3 oow births. Which means they didnt learn the lesson the 1st time. Having unprotected sex with something that isnt a man is foolish. Which says, many of you dont have a clue what a man is in the 1st place. Expecting that which isnt a man to suddenly become one, because you need him to is stupid. He can not be what he has never been taught to be. Continuing to enable this folly by embracing it, simply because it wears a skirt, is the worse crime against our race.

4. Get the mote out of your eyes 1st.

Black women were historically raped ,degraded, and de-feminized to the extent that many of our men til this day don’t see us OR our Black children as worthy of being loved, cherished, supported, and protected. Life for Black AA women certainly “ain’t been no crystal stair.”

If I have to go out there and fight with the white man every day and dodge his lusty hands, come home to work a 2nd shift, and not have my pain seen as equal to a Black man’s pain, or somehow minimized, then I wouldn’t want that type of Black man at home waiting for me. I don’t even want that type of Black man even near me.

Black men killin’ other Black men significantly adds to the “endangered species” status of Black men. Just look at what happens here on this board where Black men try to chop each other to pieces almost everyday. If words could kill, there would be a whole lotta Black men gone up in here by now.

I don’t have to post any credentials to prove anything to anyone. You say Sistas are "foolish" for not being able to read a Black man's mind and believing in Black men. I find that interesting.

I hear and feel your pain. But this is usually the exception. And we will agree to disagree about his Mookie status, k?

Btw, why havent you filed for support?

I have, he's a independant salesman!
Slick aint he?

I thought I did answer you!
He was not mookie status, he was weak! big difference!!!

The reason there are soo many single households......

Let's look at this thread and see all the damned responses. All we are doing is shooting accusations back and forth. It only takes one accusation or perceived accusation and the gloves come off. We are killing each other with our words. It's like who can come up with the harshest and most critical comment towards the other sex, or just a certain individual.

We can agree that we are in the same boat, but we think that our individual pain is greater. Or just because I'm a man, you should see it my way. Or just because I'm a woman, you should see it my way.


:shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup:

The reason there are soo many single households......

Let's look at this thread and see all the damned responses. All we are doing is shooting accusations back and forth. It only takes one accusation or perceived accusation and the gloves come off. We are killing each other with our words. It's like who can come up with the harshest and most critical comment towards the other sex, or just a certain individual.

We can agree that we are in the same boat, but we think that our individual pain is greater. Or just because I'm a man, you should see it my way. Or just because I'm a woman, you should see it my way.


:shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup:

I just wanted to share my experience but I have noticed what you said.
To be honest with you people do grow apart but your children are forever!
There are several reasons why there are single family homes in the black communities and each one has their own individual reason.
Inmaturity,maturity,cheating,beating,drugging,fina ncial reasons, but no there is not one reason why a man or a women should stop being friends or at least adults when it comes to raising our kids!
You don't have to be in the home, but just be there for God's sake!

I wasn't specifically talking about you. I know we all have had painful experiences in life, that's just reality. My son's egg-donor is a piece of ****. But, instead of complaining about it I got custody of my son and took care of his needs. Ain't no point in my crying about it, or trying to force someone to be something they don't want to be.


I just wanted to share my experience but I have noticed what you said.
To be honest with you people do grow apart but your children are forever!
There are several reasons why there are single family homes in the black communities and each one has their own individual reason.
Inmaturity,maturity,cheating,beating,drugging,fina ncial reasons, but no there is not one reason why a man or a women should stop being friends or at least adults when it comes to raising our kids!
You don't have to be in the home, but just be there for God's sake!

Black women and children have been lynched and whipped historically. They have also been excluded from having the same rights black men have struggled for.

Just because white culture is trying to create a divide against black women & black men doesn't mean they have it 'better.' It's different, but not 'better.'


The divide is being created by these statments. Quit trying to take credit for something you didnt do or know nothing of. Even Oprah wont say this any more. Corretta got her str8 on this topic.

Black women were historically raped ,degraded, and de-feminized to the extent that many of our men til this day don’t see us OR our Black children as worthy of being loved, cherished, supported, and protected. Life for Black AA women certainly “ain’t been no crystal stair.”

If I have to go out there and fight with the white man every day and dodge his lusty hands, come home to work a 2nd shift, and not have my pain seen as equal to a Black man’s pain, or somehow minimized, then I wouldn’t want that type of Black man at home waiting for me. I don’t even want that type of Black man even near me.

Black men killin’ other Black men significantly adds to the “endangered species” status of Black men. Just look at what happens here on this board where Black men try to chop each other to pieces almost everyday. If words could kill, there would be a whole lotta Black men gone up in here by now.

I don’t have to post any credentials to prove anything to anyone. You say Sistas are "foolish" for not being able to read a Black man's mind and believing in Black men. I find that interesting.


Let's see. Raped, etc and alive to talk about it and carry on, versus, lynched and definitely DEAD!. Nope, no comparision. Sorry


Let's see, having a bunch of womans' lib sexual harassment laws to protect you versus being lynched and definitely DEAD! Nope, no comparision. Sorry. Make our home a haven and I'll make it all go away


Hmmmm. More brothers DEAD, regardless of whose hands its by. ALL of them coming from OOW homes versus some sisters crying over my DEAD body. Nope, no comparision. Sorry


No, I didnt say sisters are foolish. I said those sisters that have unprotected sex with someone that doesnt qualify as a man are. That is a very clear distinction. But please tell me why you would defend a sister that knowingly has unprotected sex with Mookie? Please explain for a brother why, with all the STDs and problems with oow births out here, do you think it's justifyable?Please explain this in light of the fact that sisters are suppose to be more intuitive and mature quicker than males. Why would she go after a boy consistantly rather than a man? why does she then expect the boy to push some magic button and then suddenly become a man for her? ( Please note that many sisters require us to read their minds all the time. lol )

Because until you can solve this issue and we can solve ours, nothing will change. But you dont seem to be willing to even admit yall have an issue(s). Thus, we are now getting to the real problem.


You dont have to read a black man's mind. He'll usually show you by his action.

Btw, if you dont like the product, it is usually a good idea to stop producing it, isnt it???

I have, he's a independant salesman!
Slick aint he?

I thought I did answer you!
He was not mookie status, he was weak! big difference!!!


No, because he still has to file tax forms and that's usually what they go by

No you didnt answer it

I asked why so many sisters go for Mookie. Not you in particular

And he is a Mookie

If you dont know that being lynched is worse, I cant help you. Being lynched is akin to crucifixtion. You really dont wanna go there, k?

No being nice doesnt necessarily equate. That is why chosing well is so important. But yall know what a nice guy is.


So I guess all those strange fruit hanging from those trees in dresses were men? These days most BM are systematicaly screwed in the employment arena, longer than usual jail sentences, and subtly removed from the home. How do they screw the women?

1. They will use tactics to remove her kids from her through the state.

2. Is more than often left without a mate, to go on welfare*, a vicious cycle.

3. The media tortures her through a silly beauty standard.

4. Made to defend herself against WM, WW, and sometimes BM.

5. All too often must witness her children go through some stupid inferiorization process through the school system.


I will not sit here all night and debate on who's oppressed more harshly, which is a surefire way to prove how tight the noose still is on our necks, regardless the "we are all the same color underneath" propaganda. I won't even begin to testify my life personal life experiences, and how white supremacy shaped my view of the world.:spinstar:

"Why would she go after a boy consistantly rather than a man?"

Have you dated men in your lifetime? Why is it even in a man to step to a Sister knowing his ish ain't together. It's called supply and demand. For many Sisters it tends to be demand, and then supply. We get what's available. If not, we are demanding, complainers, and have expectations that are too high. :witch:

No, because he still has to file tax forms and that's usually what they go by

No you didnt answer it

I asked why so many sisters go for Mookie. Not you in particular

And he is a Mookie

Ok maybe my definition of mookie and your definition of mookie is different!
And fyi I don't think he files!
He was a college grad,intelligent,extremely funny,great stepper,had his own place,nice job,clean,handsome,we took carriage rides,skating,casino road trips,made love by the missippi river,picnics outside and the living room,ice skating,boat riding,expensive foreign restaurants,walks dowtown at night,he wrote me poetry, then the drinking started,then the abuse,then the cheating and more abuse and goodbye!That aint mookie! Mookie will pass you a blunt and a forty ounce and tell you to put on some bruce lee video, turn it on low,then put who's is this on by rkelly and turn you around to missionary position!:lol:
now to answer your initial question!
Maybe it's that thugged out sex,the realness,the game,the way they flaunt their manhood,the roughneck nice girl theme, well that was me back when.

So I guess all those strange fruit hanging from those trees in dresses were men? These days most BM are systematicaly screwed in the employment arena, longer than usual jail sentences, and subtly removed from the home. How do they screw the women?

1. They will use tactics to remove her kids from her through the state.

2. Is more than often left without a mate, to go on welfare*, a vicious cycle.

3. The media tortures her through a silly beauty standard.

4. Made to defend herself against WM, WW, and sometimes BM.

5. All too often must witness her children go through some stupid inferiorization process through the school system.


I will not sit here all night and debate on who's oppressed more harshly, which is a surefire way to prove how tight the noose still is on our necks, regardless the "we are all the same color underneath" propaganda. I won't even begin to testify my life personal life experiences, and how white supremacy shaped my view of the world.:spinstar:


Uh, no, they arent men. Yet for a while, sisters were going after these strange fruit as well. Just like Stella getting her groove back is still trying to do. ( pathetic skank *smh* ) Many males are setting themselves up to catch a case. Cosby is right about parent not doing their job.

None of this would be an issue if mothers didnt allow tv and bet to raise their kids. None of this would happen if mothers didnt allow media to dictate to them. You're suppose to have a mind, use it!

There is no debate. You have answered many of my issues. Being killed does not compare to anything sisters may go thru

Uh, no, they arent men. Yet for a while, sisters were going after these strange fruit as well. Just like Stella getting her groove back is still trying to do. ( pathetic skank *smh* ) Many males are setting themselves up to catch a case. Cosby is right about parent not doing their job.

None of this would be an issue if mothers didnt allow tv and bet to raise their kids. None of this would happen if mothers didnt allow media to dictate to them. You're suppose to have a mind, use it!

There is no debate. You have answered many of my issues. Being killed does not compare to anything sisters may go thru

Yes indeed!

"Why would she go after a boy consistantly rather than a man?"

Have you dated men in your lifetime? Why is it even in a man to step to a Sister knowing his ish ain't together. It's called supply and demand. For many Sisters it tends to be demand, and then supply. We get what's available. If not, we are demanding, complainers, and have expectations that are too high. :witch:


1. If his stuff aint together, he aint a man

2. If her stuff aint together she aint a woman

3. Much of this supply was/is/will be raised by the sisters you insist on defending.

4. If you dont like the product, change the manufacturing process

"Why would she go after a boy consistantly rather than a man?"

Have you dated men in your lifetime? Why is it even in a man to step to a Sister knowing his ish ain't together. It's called supply and demand. For many Sisters it tends to be demand, and then supply. We get what's available. If not, we are demanding, complainers, and have expectations that are too high. :witch:

I know a real black man! Some of these very issues you are speaking of so does he! Butttttttttt! He is about self most of the time,career this career that,no relationship because it's a label and things are exspected, I want to this and do that because I know my purpose in this life!
WEIRD!

Ok maybe my definition of mookie and your definition of mookie is different!
And fyi I don't think he files!
He was a college grad,intelligent,extremely funny,great stepper,had his own place,nice job,clean,handsome,we took carriage rides,skating,casino road trips,made love by the missippi river,picnics outside and the living room,ice skating,boat riding,expensive foreign restaurants,walks dowtown at night,he wrote me poetry, then the drinking started,then the abuse,then the cheating and more abuse and goodbye!That aint mookie! Mookie will pass you a blunt and a forty ounce and tell you to put on some bruce lee video, turn it on low,then put who's is this on by rkelly and turn you around to missionary position!:lol:
now to answer your initial question!
Maybe it's that thugged out sex,the realness,the game,the way they flaunt their manhood,the roughneck nice girl theme, well that was me back when.


Please know that there are Mookies ( dawgs ) with college degrees. They smoke blunts too, btw. If he doesnt file taxes, I'm sure the IRS would love to know that. I'm sure they can be a lot more pursuasive than you. lol

The divide is being created by these statments. Quit trying to take credit for something you didnt do or know nothing of. Even Oprah wont say this any more. Corretta got her str8 on this topic.

Excuse me, what did I say that was inaccurate? If you want a source to look at to prove what I said is true, I can provide this, but it I thought it was common knowledge that black men weren't the only victims of lynchings! Like another poster has said some of that 'strange fruit' had on dresses!

Divides are created when people post in condescending ways at responses that didn't deserve that type of approach. And as far as white culture creating divides... I would think this is another common observation, particularly with the Nationalist/activist stance this website promotes!

Excuse me, what did I say that was inaccurate? If you want a source to look at to prove what I said is true, I can provide this, but it I thought it was common knowledge that black men weren't the only victims of lynchings! Like another poster has said some of that 'strange fruit' had on dresses!

Divides are created when people post in condescending ways at responses that didn't deserve that type of approach.


You view as condescension becuase they dont fit your theories. They are facts. Like them or not.

I know a real black man! Some of these very issues you are speaking of so does he! Butttttttttt! He is about self most of the time,career this career that,no relationship because it's a label and things are exspected, I want to this and do that because I know my purpose in this life!
WEIRD!


If so many of you knew what a man is, you wouldnt keep ending up with all these losers. The losers arent men!

I think we have hit on what the real issue is, havent we?

Please know that there are Mookies ( dawgs ) with college degrees. They smoke blunts too, btw. If he doesnt file taxes, I'm sure the IRS would love to know that. I'm sure they can be a lot more pursuasive than you. lol

I get you, I think the IRS would like to know too:gossip:

I get you, I think the IRS would like to know too:gossip:


Hint, hint, hint.....

http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/lynch/doc7.htm

http://whgbetc.com/mind/jim-crow-apartheid.html

I got the quote below from the website mentioned above:

lynchings had become rare, there were 4,730 known lynchings, including 3,440 Black men and women. Most of the victims of Lynch-Law were hanged or shot, but some were burned at the stake, castrated, beaten with clubs, or dismembered.

There is also the Rosewood massacre, in which black men, women and children were killed with no remorse from whites!

http://www.displaysforschools.com/history.html

http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html (quote below)

"Of these black victims, 94 percent died in the hands of white lynch mobs. The scale of this carnage means that, on the average, a black man, woman, or child was murdered nearly once a week, every week, between 1882 and 1930 by a hate-driven white mob" (ix)"

http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/lynch/doc7.htm

http://whgbetc.com/mind/jim-crow-apartheid.html

I got the quote below from the website mentioned above:

lynchings had become rare, there were 4,730 known lynchings, including 3,440 Black men and women. Most of the victims of Lynch-Law were hanged or shot, but some were burned at the stake, castrated, beaten with clubs, or dismembered.

There is also the Rosewood massacre, in which black men, women and children were killed with no remorse from whites!

http://www.displaysforschools.com/history.html

http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html (quote below)

"Of these black victims, 94 percent died in the hands of white lynch mobs. The scale of this carnage means that, on the average, a black man, woman, or child was murdered nearly once a week, every week, between 1882 and 1930 by a hate-driven white mob" (ix)"


Dear, I never said some sisters didnt get lynched too. But there were no comparisions to the amount men, both known and unknown

Dear, I never said some sisters didnt get lynched too. But there were no comparisions to the amount men, both known and unknown


This attempt on your part to minimize the pain of Black women is shocking and very insensitive.

I grant you that not as many Black women were lynched as Black men, however, people can be destroyed without killing them. Remember, the body is the last to die. A peoples' spirit can die long before their bodies. Just look at AA's today for proof of that.

Also, it makes me shudder to think of how our female ancestors on those plantations could be sexually brutalized at will and have their babies taken from them and never EVER see them again, in so many cases. I can well understand why some mothers killed their babies to prevent that.

This is why I can NEVER understand how a Black man could willingly leave his babies today. If I could understand that, I could understand anything.

The pain of our female ancestors should NEVER be minimized by any Black person and especially not by a man because it is the role of males in all groups to protect their females--not minimize the pain after the women have been brutalized.

This attempt on your part to minimize the pain of Black women is shocking and very insensitive.

I grant you that not as many Black women were lynched as Black men, however, people can be destroyed without killing them. Remember, the body is the last to die. A peoples' spirit can die long before their bodies. Just look at AA's today for proof of that.


Also, it makes me shudder to think of how our female ancestors on those plantations could be sexually brutalized at will and have their babies taken from them and never EVER see them again, in so many cases. I can well understand why some mothers killed their babies to prevent that.

This is why I can NEVER understand how a Black man could willingly leave his babies today. If I could understand that, I could understand anything.

The pain of our female ancestors should NEVER be minimized by any Black person and especially not by a man because it is the role of males in all groups to protect their females--not minimize the pain after the women have been brutalized.


No. It is a rather tawdry attempt to place yourselves on the same level of those that did the sacrificing. Let me again state, they dont call bw an endagered species. Death is no comparision to those that are left still standing and able to be healed.

Todays issues are recent. Due primarily to a stiff necked generation that openly stated their resentment in having to join the struggle. I have minimized nothing. I have in fact exposed a scar with a very bright light! Dont try to kill the messenger.

The fact that even you must grant the death rate in the struggle of bm says your premise is wrong. Your pain can be healed. Thus far, we have no cure for death. Cosby is right!

Methinx yall doth protest too much!

No. It is a rather tawdry attempt to place yourselves on the same level of those that did the sacrificing. Let me again state, they dont call bw an endagered species. Death is no comparision to those that are left still standing and able to be healed.

Todays issues are recent. Due primarily to a stiff necked generation that openly stated their resentment in having to join the struggle. I have minimized nothing. I have in fact exposed a scar with a very bright light! Dont try to kill the messenger.

The fact that even you must grant the death rate in the struggle of bm says your premise is wrong. Your pain can be healed. Thus far, we have no cure for death. Cosby is right!

Methinx yall doth protest too much!

No, I think you protest too much in constantly trying to pin the blame for our devastated communities solely on Black women.

As to Healed? These wounds have not healed. Look at African-Americans! These are soul wounds.

You're constantly asking what's wrong with Black women who grab on to Black males who are not men. I don't expect you to understand this, but it's very clear to me that many of these women are still trying to hold onto and love those lost babies and children. These women know that's why these males are the way they are.

This attempt on your part to minimize the pain of Black women is shocking and very insensitive.

I grant you that not as many Black women were lynched as Black men, however, people can be destroyed without killing them. Remember, the body is the last to die. A peoples' spirit can die long before their bodies. Just look at AA's today for proof of that.

Also, it makes me shudder to think of how our female ancestors on those plantations could be sexually brutalized at will and have their babies taken from them and never EVER see them again, in so many cases. I can well understand why some mothers killed their babies to prevent that.

This is why I can NEVER understand how a Black man could willingly leave his babies today. If I could understand that, I could understand anything.

The pain of our female ancestors should NEVER be minimized by any Black person and especially not by a man because it is the role of males in all groups to protect their females--not minimize the pain after the women have been brutalized.

I agree with this assessment, for the most part.

However,I think you need to take a more balanced and deeper look into why some black men and WOMEN are abandoning their children.

And although this is a fairly recent phenomenon, probably starting no more than 2 generations ago.

I would surmise that what we're really talking about are the symptoms of Post Tramatic Slavery Disorder.

No. It is a rather tawdry attempt to place yourselves on the same level of those that did the sacrificing. Let me again state, they dont call bw an endagered species. Death is no comparision to those that are left still standing and able to be healed.

I have to disagree with that statement. The psychological and emotional effects from witnessing such a brutal treatment has been etched down for generations in the consciousness of every individual black person. For some, it has been the very fabric that caused Black people to strive for better. For others, it has ate at the mind and soul til all hope, determination, and self-pride is devoured, leaving behind an empty vessel we call a body.

The treatment of our ancestor's was so fierce, that some can't/won't even acknowledge the psychological affect it has on us today. No, they don't call BW an endangered species. But if you think about it, who gives birth (rather oow or married) to BM, BW. It would be unwise to think BW aren’t endangered too.

As for mookie, there is still hope and belief that he/she will regain their God given birth right as fathers and mothers of civilization.
It's not all mookies fault that there are so many Black single parent homes. History has been documented for Black people to feel inferior, useless, and unimportant. Therefore, the cause of so many single homes goes alot deeper than the choice of mate, it's a program created to continue the victimization of Black people. Unfortunately, it has been very successful throughout the years.

I agree with this assessment, for the most part.

However,I think you need to take a more balanced and deeper look into why some black men and WOMEN are abandoning their children.

And although this is a fairly recent phenomenon, probably starting no more than 2 generations ago.

I would surmise that what we're really talking about are the symptoms of Post Tramatic Slavery Disorder.

Yes, I agree that we are suffering from PTSD. Maybe, AAs just need to all take an agreed upon day off work and start the mourning process for the horrific losses of all types during slavery. We just need to start meeting in small groups across the country and start talking about it.

Yes, I agree that we are suffering from PTSD. Maybe, AAs just need to all take an agreed upon day off work and start the mourning process for the horrific losses of all types during slavery. We just need to start meeting in small groups across the country and start talking about it.


What an extraodinary Idea.

I agree.

What an extraodinary Idea.

I agree.

I concur.

Basically, both black men and women have and continue to suffer. It is so important not to dismiss the other gender's pain, and/or not even allow them a voice because of what white media purports.

Not only take a day off, but honor the spirits of our ancestors by recognizing them as an intricate part of our mental, spiritual and physical well being.

In short acknowledging them as a live and dynamic positive force in our lives TODAY

I concur.

Basically, both black men and women have and continue to suffer. It is so important not to dismiss the other gender's pain, and/or not even allow them a voice because of what white media purports.


True indeed,

I'm not about trying to supercede the pain of one gender over the other.

We've all suffered in different ways at times, but usually as a whole.

True indeed,

I'm not about trying to supercede the pain of one gender over the other.

We've all suffered in different ways at times, but usually as a whole.

I don't think we hear the other gender expressing pain, as much as we hear the accusations. If I hear a man saying, "You hurt me when you do this, this, or that," or if I hear him crying or saying, "I'm hurting," then I will listen and reach out to that man and try to comfort him but when someone keeps saying to me, "It's all your fault," my ears are closed!

Everywhere I turn, I hear AA men blaming AA women for everything, rather it's Essence magazine or the internet.

No, I think you protest too much in constantly trying to pin the blame for our devastated communities solely on Black women.

As to Healed? These wounds have not healed. Look at African-Americans! These are soul wounds.

You're constantly asking what's wrong with Black women who grab on to Black males who are not men. I don't expect you to understand this, but it's very clear to me that many of these women are still trying to hold onto and love those lost babies and children. These women know that's why these males are the way they are.

You said: I grant you that not as many Black women were lynched as Black men

This has proved my point.

1. We will agree to disagree that the individuals you refer to even qualify as a woman

2. These wounds are the wounds of buying into feminist myths and lies. One only had to read their history. It's in every library in the country. To only discover how at every opportunity, when a choice came to include blacks that initially helped form the feminist movement and betray them, they consistantly chose to betray us. No, everything isnt the females fault. But 50% is. Whether you like it or not!

3. If you are unwilling to change yourself and love the best we have to offer, what does that say about you?

4. If you dont like the product being produced, then you must change the manufacturing process. Basically, we all have forgotten where we came from.

You said: I grant you that not as many Black women were lynched as Black men

This has proved my point.

1. We will agree to disagree that the individuals you refer to even qualify as a woman

2. These wounds are the wounds of buying into feminist myths and lies. One only had to read their history. It's in every library in the country. To only discover how at every opportunity, when a choice came to include blacks that initially helped form the feminist movement and betray them, they consistantly chose to betray us. No, everything isnt the females fault. But 50% is. Whether you like it or not!

3. If you are unwilling to change yourself and love the best we have to offer, what does that say about you?

4. If you dont like the product being produced, then you must change the manufacturing process. Basically, we all have forgotten where we came from.



I don't think any Black woman I ever met would avoid accepting 50% of the responsibility. That's only fair. That means that Black men are also 50% responsible.

I must have misinterpreted you before because it seemed to me that you were blaming Sistas for being a lot more than 50% responsible.

No. It is a rather tawdry attempt to place yourselves on the same level of those that did the sacrificing. Let me again state, they dont call bw an endagered species. Death is no comparision to those that are left still standing and able to be healed.

Todays issues are recent. Due primarily to a stiff necked generation that openly stated their resentment in having to join the struggle. I have minimized nothing. I have in fact exposed a scar with a very bright light! Dont try to kill the messenger.

The fact that even you must grant the death rate in the struggle of bm says your premise is wrong. Your pain can be healed. Thus far, we have no cure for death. Cosby is right!

Methinx yall doth protest too much!


I'll explain to you what a slow agonizing psychological death is:

my only daughter was mysteriously diagnosed and suffered from viral meningitis at 8 1/2 months old, nearly died, and still/will suffer from moderate mental/and some physical incapabilities for the REST of her life. Have you dealt with this at 19 years alone? Do you think that is not draining on a single mother who is told later in her mid-20's that she is infertile?!?!?!?! I wonder who were the opressors then?

That is just the beginning of what a non-physical death can do to anyone. I won't spread all my bidness. Oppression is oppression, but when you have BM who are only infatuated with their own struggle, although they sometimes they contribute to it.............it sounds more like a whine rather than a valid complaint.

I don't think we hear the other gender expressing pain, as much as we hear the accusations. If I hear a man saying, "You hurt me when you do this, this, or that," or if I hear him crying or saying, "I'm hurting," then I will listen and reach out to that man and try to comfort him but when someone keeps saying to me, "It's all your fault," my ears are closed!

Everywhere I turn, I hear AA men blaming AA women for everything, rather it's Essence magazine or the internet.


Everywhere I turn, I hear AA men blaming AA women for everything, rather it's Essence magazine or the internet

Interesting, because I usually here alot of women blaming men for their problems.

I can't say I have EVER seen any man on this board or in black publications say it's ALL the black women's fault.

But what I have heard and seen is some black women say that black men are the oppressors of black women, rather than the white man.

Interesting, because I usually here alot of women blaming men for their problems.

I can't say I have EVER seen any man on this board or in black publications say it's ALL the black women's fault.

But what I have heard and seen is some black women say that black men are the oppressors of black women, rather than the white man.

I don't expect you to understand this. I'm just sharing it with whomever, but I'm oppressed by racism and sexism in subtle and blatant ways, and I realize that. I'm not saying YOU personally are doing it, but those patriarchial structures are still in place and many men support them.

I'm going to mention two obvious ways that women, Black and otherwise, are victimized by a patriarchial system that Black men, in most places, support.

Example 1: woman's value is still very directly tied to her looks in the majority of cases in this male-dominated worls. This is the case for most women in the world. Do Black men here support that system? Yes, they do. There are numerous threads on this site that testify to that. When I hear men saying, "That's just the way it is. Men are visual," that tells me that men don't even want to try to change that about themselves. That translates as support.

So, let's be frank. If all things are equal, an ugly/unattractive man can go a lot farther in life than an ugly/unattractive woman.

Appearance is about as personal as you can get. It affects a female's self-esteem to the core of her being. Is that fair to that woman? Hell no. If she is unattractive, she can't get away from her appearance the same way we can't hide our complexion in a racist society. So every day, she has to struggle in a man's world against men who judge her and often ridicule, devalue, and reject her because of her appearance.

Example 2: Being "heavy" is another no-no for a woman. I don't need to break that down, I'm sure.

Now, I can come up with several other ways in which women are at a disadvantage in a male-dominated world, ways that many Black men, even in this country, support. Come on now! All the chauvinist Black men are not in Africa. So to me, these sexist Black men are upholding a system that oppresses Black women.

I don't expect you to understand this. I'm just sharing it with whomever, but I'm oppressed by racism and sexism in subtle and blatant ways, and I realize that. I'm not saying YOU personally are doing it, but those patriarchial structures are still in place and many men support them.

I'm going to mention two obvious ways that women, Black and otherwise, are victimized by a patriarchial system that Black men, in most places, support.

Example 1: woman's value is still very directly tied to her looks in the majority of cases in this male-dominated worls. This is the case for most women in the world. Do Black men here support that system? Yes, they do. There are numerous threads on this site that testify to that. When I hear men saying, "That's just the way it is. Men are visual," that tells me that men don't even want to try to change that about themselves. That translates as support.

So, let's be frank. If all things are equal, an ugly/unattractive man can go a lot farther in life than an ugly/unattractive woman.

Appearance is about as personal as you can get. It affects a female's self-esteem to the core of her being. Is that fair to that woman? Hell no. If she is unattractive, she can't get away from her appearance the same way we can't hide our complexion in a racist society. So every day, she has to struggle in a man's world against men who judge her and often ridicule, devalue, and reject her because of her appearance.

Example 2: Being "heavy" is another no-no for a woman. I don't need to break that down, I'm sure.

Now, I can come up with several other ways in which women are at a disadvantage in a male-dominated world, ways that many Black men, even in this country, support. Come on now! All the chauvinist Black men are not in Africa. So to me, these sexist Black men are upholding a system that oppresses Black women.

I do understand, all to well in fact.

What you don't seem want to admit or perhaps choose to ignore is the role of our women in supporting the system that holds them down, actively and passively.

Do you not agree that some of our women are passive conspirators in their oppression?

That in fact both genders are no less responsible for the demise our people.

Show me a black man or group of black men in America that are preventing black women from getting jobs, or going to college?

How is the black man holding the black woman down in this country?

I do understand, all to well in fact.

What you don't seem want to admit or perhaps choose to ignore is the role of our women in supporting the system that holds them down, actively and passively.

Do you not agree that some of our women are passive conspirators in their oppression?

That in fact both genders are no less responsible for the demise our people.

Show me a black man or group of black men in America that are preventing black women from getting jobs, or going to college?

How is the black man holding the black woman down in this country?




Why didn't you address the appearance and weight issues? Do you need for women to tell you how critically important those issues are?

Way before I could even begin to think about getting a job, I had to think about my appearance. Even when I was a girl, I noticed how males really slammed girls who they considered ugly/unattractive or heavy/fat.

Luckily for me, I was in neither category. However, I'm a sensitive person, so I felt the impact.

These are 2 CRITICAL issues for females. Make sure you're never in a womens' session where they feel safe to open up and talk about these two issues. It's PAINFUL to hear how these women have been limited because of their appearance and/or weight!!

Why didn't you address the appearance and weight issues? Do you need for women to tell you how critically important those issues are?

Way before I could even begin to think about getting a job, I had to think about my appearance. Even when I was a girl, I noticed how males really slammed girls who they considered ugly/unattractive or heavy/fat.

Luckily for me, I was in neither category. However, I'm a sensitive person, so I felt the impact.

These are 2 CRITICAL issues for females. Make sure you're never in a womens' session where they feel safe to open up and talk about these two issues. It's PAINFUL to hear how these women have been limited because of their appearance and/or weight!!

Well said, Riada. Women who are unattractive and/or overweight are seen as not even being human in this society. Blacks tend to be more flexible, but there's still the distinction between 'phat ***' and 'fat ***' (to quote from Barbershop).

Of course, the excuse made is that fat is unhealthy and unattractive. But then again so is smoking. So is anorexia. So is starvation dieting. Neither of these are condemned with the exception of anorexia if the woman is less than 90 pounds. Regardless, I will never understand why men HATE women who don't fit their standard of beauty. There are physical traits as well as behaviors that don't attract me as much to a man.... it doesn't mean I will hate men that are like that.

I do agree with Sek to some extent though that women do perpetuate the cycle, but then again it's hard to break something that you feel you need to do to attract someone.

Why didn't you address the appearance and weight issues? Do you need for women to tell you how critically important those issues are?

Way before I could even begin to think about getting a job, I had to think about my appearance. Even when I was a girl, I noticed how males really slammed girls who they considered ugly/unattractive or heavy/fat.

Luckily for me, I was in neither category. However, I'm a sensitive person, so I felt the impact.

These are 2 CRITICAL issues for females. Make sure you're never in a womens' session where they feel safe to open up and talk about these two issues. It's PAINFUL to hear how these women have been limited because of their appearance and/or weight!!


No I don't need women to tell me how critically important these issues are, no more than I need to tell you about the crisis of black men being profiled on the nations highways.

Do you honestly think Black men don't have to be concerned about their appearance or how they present themselves when we go on an interview.

Have you ever taken the time to ask Black men what obstacles and challenges they face before being hired by White employees?

Trust me, white Employees prefer a certain African phenotype on every level of the food chain. Usually a non-threatening type.

Moreover, Black men are not the major employees of anyone in this country, so the discrimination black people comes almost entirely from white people.

You talk about weight issues relating to black women, what are black women doing about their weight? or their images that are portrayed?

With all the highly educated black women in this country, why are our women not taking a more pro-active approach, instead of talking about what the white man or black man is doing to them.

You're coming dangerously close to suggesting that the black man is the enemy of the black woman, and I'm not goin for it.

No I don't need women to tell me how critically important these issues are, no more than I need to tell you about the crisis of black men being profiled on the nations highways.

Do you honestly think Black men don't have to be concerned about their appearance or how they present themselves when we go on an interview.

Have you ever taken the time to ask Black men what obstacles and challenges they face before being hired by White employees?

Trust me, white Employees prefer a certain African phenotype on every level of the food chain. Usually a non-threatening type.

Moreover, Black men are not the major employees of anyone in this country, so the discrimination black people comes almost entirely from white people.

You talk about weight issues relating to black women, what are black women doing about their weight? or their images that are portrayed?
With all the highly educated black women in this country, why are our women not taking a more pro-active approach, instead of talking about what the white man or black man is doing to them.

You're coming dangerously close to suggesting that the black man is the enemy of the black woman, and I'm not goin for it.


I'm not talking about white people disapproving of Black womens' appearance or seeing Black women as ugly and/or fat, I'm talking about Black men regarding their women this way!! I'm not talking about an interview. I'm talking PERSONAL life here. That's where people live and breathe--in their PERSONAL life.

If you are a so-called "ugly/unattractive" or "heavy/fat" Black woman, you have to deal with YOUR OWN Black males from Day 1 in your surroundings seeing you as being as less worthy than a slimmer, pretty woman even BEFORE any white man sees you.

This is where a great big chunk of the damage to a young Black female's self-esteem occurs--inside the confines of Black folks--with nary a white face among them. And a lot of this occurs because that Black female is ridiculed and rejected by Black males. Yes, some Black women also participate in the destruction of this unattractive/heavy Black female for the same reason that Black people help white oppressors destroy other Blacks. It's the same dynamic at work.


Re: your question of what are Black women doing about their weight?
See, why does a Black woman have to be fixated on her weight?? If anybody is morbidly obese, that's one thing, but I'm talking about up to 50 lbs maybe over what's considered her "normal" weight and she has to deal with so many Black men, her own men ridiculing and rejecting her. I aint' talkin bout no white folks here.

I don't think any Black woman I ever met would avoid accepting 50% of the responsibility. That's only fair. That means that Black men are also 50% responsible.

I must have misinterpreted you before because it seemed to me that you were blaming Sistas for being a lot more than 50% responsible.


You're doing that in this thread. Berating me for the act of saying, that it's a fact that many of these sisters go out of their way to get into this situation. No, you like many in the amen corner, think an attack on one, is an attack on all. I was very specific in who I talked about. I also, put certain males in the same category.

As long as there are skanks out here, they will spawn a dog to meet the challenge. That's just how life is. When sisters respected themselves, the oow birth rate in our community was ~20%. Now it's 70%.

Just say no! Sometimes. k?

I'll explain to you what a slow agonizing psychological death is:

my only daughter was mysteriously diagnosed and suffered from viral meningitis at 8 1/2 months old, nearly died, and still/will suffer from moderate mental/and some physical incapabilities for the REST of her life. Have you dealt with this at 19 years alone? Do you think that is not draining on a single mother who is told later in her mid-20's that she is infertile?!?!?!?! I wonder who were the opressors then?

That is just the beginning of what a non-physical death can do to anyone. I won't spread all my bidness. Oppression is oppression, but when you have BM who are only infatuated with their own struggle, although they sometimes they contribute to it.............it sounds more like a whine rather than a valid complaint.


Though I feel your pain here, I fail to see what this has to do with the subject at hand. Unless you're implying that your daughter was involved in some sort of Tuskegee Project for females. This is apples and elephants and you know it. Dead is still DEAD!!!!

SAY NO TO MOOKIE!!!!!!!

I'm not talking about white people disapproving of Black womens' appearance or seeing Black women as ugly and/or fat, I'm talking about Black men regarding their women this way!! I'm not talking about an interview. I'm talking PERSONAL life here. That's where people live and breathe--in their PERSONAL life.

If you are a so-called "ugly/unattractive" or "heavy/fat" Black woman, you have to deal with YOUR OWN Black males from Day 1 in your surroundings seeing you as being as less worthy than a slimmer, pretty woman even BEFORE any white man sees you.

This is where a great big chunk of the damage to a young Black female's self-esteem occurs--inside the confines of Black folks--with nary a white face among them. And a lot of this occurs because that Black female is ridiculed and rejected by Black males. Yes, some Black women also participate in the destruction of this unattractive/heavy Black female for the same reason that Black people help white oppressors destroy other Blacks. It's the same dynamic at work.


Re: your question of what are Black women doing about their weight?
See, why does a Black woman have to be fixated on her weight?? If anybody is morbidly obese, that's one thing, but I'm talking about up to 50 lbs maybe over what's considered her "normal" weight and she has to deal with so many Black men, her own men ridiculing and rejecting her. I aint' talkin bout no white folks here.

I'm not talking about white people disapproving of Black womens' appearance as ugly and/or fat. I'm talking about Black men regarding their women this way

First you were talking about black men holding down black women, now you're talking about how Black men are not attracted to fat or unnattractive women.So in other words, Black men are oppressing and holding down fat Black women, no pun intended. Gotcha!

If you are a so-called "ugly/unattractive" or "heavy/fat" Black women, you have to deal with YOUR OWN Black males from Day 1 in your surroundings seeing you as being less worthy than a slimmer, pretty woman even BEFORE any white man sees you

And? How is this any different than the Black boy who gets ridiculed for being too dark or too fat or perhaps gets lambasted for sounding white in class.

Do you think Black males suffer from less ridicule and poor-self esteem than Black females. Trust me, they don't.

This is where a great big chunk of the damage to a young Black female's self-esteem occurs-inside the confines of Black folks--with nary a white face among them

Ah... you do realize the damage is equally effective for boys as it is for girls, no?

Do you honestly think girls don't ridicule boys, EVERYDAY. Well they do, I should know, I work for the NYC Board of Ed.

If not how do you explain the fact that the prisons are filled with black men who grew up with no father in the home, or never finished high school.

Tell me sista, is there a remote possibility of a correlationg between the high rates of incarceration of black men, gang violence, suicide and self-esteem?

See why does a Black woman have to be fixated on her weight?
I don't know, perhaps for the same reasons they complain about be ostracized for it.

If anybody is morbidly obese, that's one thing, but I'm talking about up to 50 lbs maybe over what's considered her "normal" weight and she has to deal with so many Black men, her own men ridiculing and rejecting her. I ain't talkin bout no white folks here

More victimization here.

You can't always control what other people think about you, or even how they treat you, but you do have the power to control yourself.

The question is, when are these women who constantly complain about what men are doing to them, going to do something about it? Instead of constantly being victimized.

If so many of you knew what a man is, you wouldnt keep ending up with all these losers. The losers arent men!

I think we have hit on what the real issue is, havent we?
HE IS! IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO KNOW WHAT A GOOD BROTHER IS SUPPOSE TO DO, HE MAY NOT BE PERFECT BUT HE IS A REAL GOOD MAN!
WHAT IS A LOSER IN YOUR EYES?

First you were talking about black men holding down black women, now you're talking about how Black men are not attracted to fat or unnattractive women.So in other words, Black men are oppressing and holding down fat Black women, no pun intended. Gotcha!



And? How is this any different than the Black boy who gets ridiculed for being too dark or too fat or perhaps gets lambasted for sounding white in class.

Do you think Black males suffer from less ridicule and poor-self esteem than Black females. Trust me, they don't.



Ah... you do realize the damage is equally effective for boys as it is for girls, no?

Do you honestly think girls don't ridicule boys, EVERYDAY. Well they do, I should know, I work for the NYC Board of Ed.

If not how do you explain the fact that the prisons are filled with black men who grew up with no father in the home, or never finished high school.

Tell me sista, is there a remote possibility of a correlationg between the high rates of incarceration of black men, gang violence, suicide and self-esteem?


I don't know, perhaps for the same reasons they complain about be ostracized for it.



More victimization here.

You can't always control what other people think about you, or even how they treat you, but you do have the power to control yourself.

The question is, when are these women who constantly complain about what men are doing to them, going to do something about it? Instead of constantly being victimized.

A woman's value is based largely on her appearance. That's the reality for most women, including Black women. This reality is very destructive to the self esteem of many, many young females, including many young developing Black girls.

Black men heavily support the keeping of this sexist reality that limits and oppresses females in place. In doing this, they're supporting that patriarchial system that crushes young Black girls WAY before these girls can begin to think about college and jobs. This is one reason why many of these girls and grown women too equate their worth with how sexy they are. Please remember this the next time you see the Black woman with the long, blond hair.

A man's value is not based on his appearance. Yes, Black men have self esteem issues, but it's usually not mainly due to their appearance and weight.

You wanted to know how Black men oppress Black women, so this is one MAJOR way: by supporting that aspect of the patriarchial system that connects a Black woman's worth to her attractiveness and her weight.

Now to me, it's WAY past time for you and I to 'agree to disagree,' yet sometimes when I've said that to you and others, some on here say, "Well, that doesn't solve anything, just keep on talking!"

I fail to see the logic of that because it's obvious to me that you and I can talk virtually forever and I'm not getting through to you and you're not getting through to me. So, what's the point?

First you were talking about black men holding down black women, now you're talking about how Black men are not attracted to fat or unnattractive women.So in other words, Black men are oppressing and holding down fat Black women, no pun intended. Gotcha!



And? How is this any different than the Black boy who gets ridiculed for being too dark or too fat or perhaps gets lambasted for sounding white in class.

Do you think Black males suffer from less ridicule and poor-self esteem than Black females. Trust me, they don't.



Ah... you do realize the damage is equally effective for boys as it is for girls, no?

Do you honestly think girls don't ridicule boys, EVERYDAY. Well they do, I should know, I work for the NYC Board of Ed.

If not how do you explain the fact that the prisons are filled with black men who grew up with no father in the home, or never finished high school.

Tell me sista, is there a remote possibility of a correlationg between the high rates of incarceration of black men, gang violence, suicide and self-esteem?


I don't know, perhaps for the same reasons they complain about be ostracized for it.



More victimization here.

You can't always control what other people think about you, or even how they treat you, but you do have the power to control yourself.

The question is, when are these women who constantly complain about what men are doing to them, going to do something about it? Instead of constantly being victimized.

I've been taunted about my weight since I was younger.
I wasn't even that heavy.
When I was a 7 I was too small for the brother that liked the thicker chicks.
When I was a size 14 which I am now to a 22 I'm either too fat or just right.
Some like it and some don't it's preference I suppose!
The guy i'm seeing now , I have a tendency of when I wear my nighties to say something about my weight and he says it doesn't bother him at all,that I'm shapely,porportioned and beautiful so stop doing that to yourself.
To tell you the truth, and I know my sisters are going to kill me for this but I'm not attracted to big men. I know I got nerve but I like what I like just as men do, but I don't belittle them or at least be polite when they come on to me. I usually attract,slim,muscle, to medium stocky men, not sure why but I like it!:karate:

I've been taunted about my weight since I was younger.
I wasn't even that heavy.
When I was a 7 I was too small for the brother that liked the thicker chicks.
When I was a size 14 which I am now to a 22 I'm either too fat or just right.
Some like it and some don't it's preference I suppose!
The guy i'm seeing now , I have a tendency of when I wear my nighties to say something about my weight and he says it doesn't bother him at all,that I'm shapely,porportioned and beautiful so stop doing that to yourself.
To tell you the truth, and I know my sisters are going to kill me for this but I'm not attracted to big men. I know I got nerve but I like what I like just as men do, but I don't belittle them or at least be polite when they come on to me. I usually attract,slim,muscle, to medium stocky men, not sure why but I like it!:karate:

Sis, I understand exactly where you're coming from. Your weight is a key issue in your life as it is for many Black women. Obviously, this guy made you want to bond with him when he assured you that your weight doesn't bother him. Do you notice though how HE had to tell you that you're "shapely, proportioned, and beautiful so stop doing that to yourself."This guy is very aware of your self-esteem level.

This is exactly my point. You sound like a very warm, loving, kind, generous, and very forgiving woman to me. You should have men standing in line to get you because you are a warm, loving, kind, generous, and very forgiving woman. You don't sound at all like your weight is at an unhealthy level, but HE realizes that what HE says about your weight is a big plus.

HE IS! IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO KNOW WHAT A GOOD BROTHER IS SUPPOSE TO DO, HE MAY NOT BE PERFECT BUT HE IS A REAL GOOD MAN!
WHAT IS A LOSER IN YOUR EYES?


If he's treating you right, then he is good enough for you.

Why did it take you so long?

Loser: Cant keep their word. Wont admit they're wrong. Destructively selfish. Seeks a lifestyle that allows them to do as little as possible for maximum gain. Incredulous as to why this choice seldom works. Seeks people to validate their faulty view of reality. Would rather spend time in the gutter than work to come into the light. Attempts to use others to get over. Thinks 2+2=6. Believes in myths. Refuses to seek out anything that contradicts the myths, regardless of how authoritative. Thinks their man/womanhood resides in their loins. Thinks personality is defined by the latest fad or fashion. Fake.

Any combination of these traits define a loser

A woman's value is based largely on her appearance. That's the reality for most women, including Black women. This reality is very destructive to the self esteem of many, many young females, including many young developing Black girls.

Black men heavily support the keeping of this sexist reality that limits and oppresses females in place. In doing this, they're supporting that patriarchial system that crushes young Black girls WAY before these girls can begin to think about college and jobs. This is one reason why many of these girls and grown women too equate their worth with how sexy they are. Please remember this the next time you see the Black woman with the long, blond hair.

A man's value is not based on his appearance. Yes, Black men have self esteem issues, but it's usually not mainly due to their appearance and weight.

You wanted to know how Black men oppress Black women, so this is one MAJOR way: by supporting that aspect of the patriarchial system that connects a Black woman's worth to her attractiveness and her weight.

Now to me, it's WAY past time for you and I to 'agree to disagree,' yet sometimes when I've said that to you and others, some on here say, "Well, that doesn't solve anything, just keep on talking!"

I fail to see the logic of that because it's obvious to me that you and I can talk virtually forever and I'm not getting through to you and you're not getting through to me. So, what's the point?


A woman's value is based largely on her appearance And whose fault is that? Oh, let me guess, the black man?

The reality is, is that women, all women must take more responsibility for the images being portrayed of them in popular media and in public.

For instance why do so many sistahs continue buying magazines and publications that do nothing to support their self-esteem and image? Is this the black man's fault as well?

Black men heavily support the keeping of this sexist reality that limits and oppresses females in place

What black men are you talking about? What institutions do they work for? Are you telling me there are Black men covorting with White men to somehow systematically keep Black women from breaking thru the corporate and political glass ceiling, while at the same time allowing the White man to keep us (Black men) from doing the same thing?. You're joking right?

In doing this, they're supporting the patriarchal system that crushes Black girls WAY before these girls can begin to think about college and jobs

So once again, we have the Black man helping the White man do all he can possibly do to keep Black women out of college and good jobs. Nevermind the fact that more Black females attend college, or that more Black males are incarcerated in far greater numbers than Black females.

I got it, Black women put pissed colored dye in their hair, worry about they're weight, wear blue and green contact lenses because black men make them do it or make them feel bad for not doing it, and not because they read it on advertisements and magazines?

Gotcha. The mystery has been solved

And whose fault is that? Oh, let me guess, the black man?

The reality is, is that women, all women must take more responsibility for the images being portrayed of them in popular media and in public.

For instance why do so many sistahs continue buying magazines and publications that do nothing to support their self-esteem and image? Is this the black man's fault as well?



What black men are you talking about? What institutions do they work for? Are you telling me there are Black men covorting with White men to somehow systematically keep Black women from breaking thru the corporate and political glass ceiling, while at the same time allowing the White man to keep us (Black men) from doing the same thing?. You're joking right?



So once again, we have the Black man helping the White man do all he can possibly do to keep Black women out of college and good jobs. Nevermind the fact that more Black females attend college, or that more Black males are incarcerated in far greater numbers than Black females.

I got it, Black women put pissed colored dye in their hair, worry about they're weight, wear blue and green contact lenses because black men make them do it or make them feel bad for not doing it, and not because they read it on advertisements and magazines?

Gotcha. The mystery has been solved


Now you know the reasons that sisters end up in the situations they do, has absolutely NOTHING to do with their poor decision making. We should all just accept that and apologize repeatedly until they decide to forgive us. Until the next time they make a poor decision. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: