On The 'Down-Low'
By Kweli I. Wright, BET.com Staff Writer

-- Just a few weeks ago, Star Jones, co-host of “The View,” and her fiancée, Al Reynolds, rejected reports that their whirlwind relationship and engagement was in trouble because
of rumors about Reynolds’ sexual preference.

Word that he had once shared a summer house in a gay section of Fire Island and attended an all-male Halloween party in his Speedos, ignited talk that Reynolds was on the “down-low” -- a man who
doesn’t call himself gay or bisexual, but has sex with men, often behind the back of his wife or girlfriend. Jones and Reynolds dismissed the reports, saying they discussed their “personal histories”
and, basically, that it was nobody’s **** business.


Men on the “down-low” is nothing new. In the 1990s, E. Lynn Harris’ popular books about bisexual African American men who lead double lives hit the stores. Today, the musical adaptation of Harris’
best-selling story of the same name, “Not A Day Goes By,” continues to spotlight this controversy in the African American community, which is far more than an issue of whether Black men are deceiving
Black women.

The issue of bisexual men and the potential for spreading deadly disease, including H.I.V./AIDS, is a major fear, especially considering the studies showing that African American women are more
likely to contract AIDS via heterosexual sex.

Government studies of 29 states show that an African American woman is 23 times more likely to be infected with AIDS than a White woman. In addition, Black women accounted for 71.8 percent of new
H.I.V. cases in women from 1999 through 2002. While the recent number of infections has stabilized, the incidence of picking up the disease through heterosexual sex has increased.

Other studies suggest that some 30 percent of all African American bisexual males may have the H.I.V infection – and 90 percent of that number do not know they are infected.

In 2002, African Americans – who comprise about 13 percent of the national population – accounted for 42 percent of those having AIDS, and more than half of those diagnosed with new infections.

Researchers believe that the high incidence of Blacks having sex with Blacks only keeps the disease within an African American “sexual network.”

Within this “network,” Black women outnumber Black men -- the 2002 census data show there are 12.6 women 21 or older, compared with 9.9 million Black men.

And on the heels of the Star Jones story, marriage rates in the African American community are dropping, which means folks are having more than one partner at the same time.

Does this issue make you stop and think: Have I dated any men who are on the “down-low?” In a society where African American men are more likely to keep their bisexuality a secret, have you gotten to the point where you assume that every man is bisexual, to be on the safe side? What is your solution to the shrinking pool of available African American men?

Does this issue make you stop and think: Have I dated any men who are on the “down-low?” In a society where African American men are more likely to keep their bisexuality a secret, have you gotten to the point where you assume that every man is bisexual, to be on the safe side? What is your solution to the shrinking pool of available African American men?[/QUOTE]

I think that being bisexual is ok IF the person that is, is open with a new partner. I think a lot of individuals have things in their closet so to speak. Honesty is the best policy. I am aware that not all african american men are being honest. If I were to date an african american man in the future I would discuss the bisexual question with him. Then take it from there.

As far as my solution to the shrinking pool of available african american men, I have no problems dating outside of my race.

Shadow

1 month ago I read in a newspaper advice column about a gay white man, who was upset that the married man he had a 1 night stand with won't speak to him anymore. I wonder if white women are going to deal with the topic of down-low "dudes" by dating outside of their race????

1 month ago I read in a newspaper advice column about a gay white man, who was upset that the married man he had a 1 night stand with won't speak to him anymore. I wonder if white women are going to deal with the topic of "down-low" dudes by dating outside of their race????


I'll drink to that...that was right on time. Given the fact that it came from them anyway...

Not to make light of a serious issue Queentswana, because I think the issue of DL brothas does need to be addressed. However, it seems that every time a negative report about Black Men comes out, "some" sistas buy into it hook, line, and sinker. Now every brother is on the DL (and all of them are infecting sisters with HIV), just like every brother is a deadbeat dad, player, or is in prison. Of course all of this contributes to the well documented "shortage of desirable black men", and the only solution to these dreadful numbers is to start dating outside the race. It is truly insane. There is no trend that is exclusive to black men (or black women for that matter). The only difference between negative trends in the black community with similar trends in white, Latino, or Asian communities, is that ours are more likely to be shown on the 6pm news.

I had heard about the Star Jones situation and if she's ok with it, I'm cool with it as well.
The Down-Low brother article, very sad to read. It hurts even more to see the AIDS stats, can't help but to wonder how many of those stats come from the Down Low brutha.
This was a good article, thanks for the read. :thanks:

The Down-Low brother article, very sad to read. It hurts even more to see the AIDS stats, can't help but to wonder how many of those stats come from the Down Low brutha.

I agree 100% Nita. I mean how exactly can we draw that conclusion from this data. This is definately an over-reaction. I see this DL behavior while definately disturbing, as probably nothing new. If anything it is further proof that we as a community need to start using condoms, which we usually do not. I always caution us as a community about championing every statistical report that comes out. We also have to question some of the conclusions drawn from these numbers. After all, if we look at the number of sisters with HIV in a truly analytical sense. The logical conclusion is that black men are at greater risk of getting HIV from a black woman than vice versa. The common belief is also that all sistas get HIV from black men, when logical would dictate, some HIV infections are coming from men of other races, drug use, etc. Again instead of jumping to illogical conclusion and hysterics. What we need to do is look at risky behaviors, and try to change them. Is sleeping with black men a risky behavior? Of course not! However sleeping with multiple sex partners without protection is risky. Having sex with 1 man who is known to have multiple sex partners, without protection is also risky. Sleeping with someone before you know them, their behaviors, and their history is also risky. The bottom line is: Don't be alarmed, just be alert, and change behavior that puts you at risk.

Its a dam shame
That MEN in general
Regardless of the race
Are having sex with other MEN
I dont know what race it started with
Really dont care to know
But this is horrible threat
To any race!!!

Its a dam shame
That MEN in general
Regardless of the race
Are having sex with other MEN
I dont know what race it started with
Really dont care to know
But this is horrible threat
To any race!!!

I agree!
But what pisses me off is it's alot of white gay men with wives,
where are the blasting and insulting articles about down-low whitey!
when george michael,boy george,liberache,mic jagger,richard gere all those white gay ***** actors on the cowboy movies came out they were like husssssssssssssssssssh dont say too much!
That's right scare the chit out them and make them not want to reproduce or think that every black man is a possible homosexual
That's right girl if he's been in jail, he's gay!
Only black men are gay and spread AIDS by sleeping with black women
Just about the entire continent of AFRICA IS HIV POSITIVE, WERE THEY DOWN LOW TOO?

The logical conclusion is that black men are at greater risk of getting HIV from a black woman than vice versa. The common belief is also that all sistas get HIV from black men, when logical would dictate, some HIV infections are coming from men of other races, drug use, etc.
This thread is saturated with misinformation. I'm not picking on you, Panafrica, but this statement here did a disservice to the remainder of your post and the one preceeding it, which were on point. Black men are at an astronomically lesser risk of infection from ANY STD than are black women. Any gynecologist or sexual health professional will tell you this. It is astronomically more probable to be infected if you are on the receiving end, whether you are male or female. In other words, because the infection has a convenient cavity for entrance into the body with both women and "bottom" homosexual men (receivers), those are the ones included among the largest percentage of sexually-transmitted infections.

Secondly, if we can trust the statistics, an extremely small number of black women are in interracial relationships compared to black men, and the number of black women who have been infected by non-black men is miniscule. IV drug users are a different story in terms of infection, but we are talking STI. Black females are at a far greater danger and risk when they fail/neglect to protect themselves than are heterosexual black males. That is precisely the main reason so many more black females are being identified as HIV positive--it is easier for them to contract an infection.

Next, there are some 11 million people in Africa who have been identified as having AIDS, and the syndrome is concentrated in a relatively small number of countries, namely Botswana, S. Africa, Rwanda, Uganda, Malawi, Zambia and a few others. 11 million out of 900 million is hardly "just about the entire continent of Africa." Furthermore, the method of determining infection is different for Africa than it is for the U.S. and W. Europe. There is no HIV test or HIV positive designation in Africa. It's simply AIDS, based on 3-4 indicators/symptoms.

The DL phenomenon is not unique to or concentrated among black males, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be. Your chance of finding a caucasian DL male is far greater in this country than is your chance of finding a black DL male, outside of prison. This is based fundamentally on population ratio.

This is a very, very old thread, and the misinformation cited by the article at the beginning of the thread is part of the problem. Our people have higher reported infection rates because our people are the ones being targeted for HIV testing, our people are the main ones being reported as having so-called HIV antibodies present in blood, semen, saliva and breastmilk (although that doesn't mean it is only our people carrying those types of antibodies), and our people are the ones with the greatest number of AIDS casualties because our people are the ones in Afrika being misdiagnosed and miseducated, and our people are the ones in amerikkka and the Carribbean and elsewhere who are taking life threatening, not life preserving drugs and drug coctails to stave off any of 29 different illnesses designated as the AID syndrome.

DL mania simply works in tandem with HIV test mania and other misinformation to lead us to distrust one another and trust the other, and gradually die off in the process. The whole catastrophe is just beyond sad.

This thread is saturated with misinformation. I'm not picking on you, Panafrica, but this statement here did a disservice to the remainder of your post and the one preceeding it, which were on point. Black men are at an astronomically lesser risk of infection from ANY STD than are black women. Any gynecologist or sexual health professional will tell you this. It is astronomically more probable to be infected if you are on the receiving end, whether you are male or female. In other words, because the infection has a convenient cavity for entrance into the body with both women and "bottom" homosexual men (receivers), those are the ones included among the largest percentage of sexually-transmitted infections.

Secondly, if we can trust the statistics, an extremely small number of black women are in interracial relationships compared to black men, and the number of black women who have been infected by non-black men is miniscule. IV drug users are a different story in terms of infection, but we are talking STI. Black females are at a far greater danger and risk when they fail/neglect to protect themselves than are heterosexual black males. That is precisely the main reason so many more black females are being identified as HIV positive--it is easier for them to contract an infection.

Next, there are some 11 million people in Africa who have been identified as having AIDS, and the syndrome is concentrated in a relatively small number of countries, namely Botswana, S. Africa, Rwanda, Uganda, Malawi, Zambia and a few others. 11 million out of 900 million is hardly "just about the entire continent of Africa." Furthermore, the method of determining infection is different for Africa than it is for the U.S. and W. Europe. There is no HIV test or HIV positive designation in Africa. It's simply AIDS, based on 3-4 indicators/symptoms.

The DL phenomenon is not unique to or concentrated among black males, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be. Your chance of finding a caucasian DL male is far greater in this country than is your chance of finding a black DL male, outside of prison. This is based fundamentally on population ratio.

This is a very, very old thread, and the misinformation cited by the article at the beginning of the thread is part of the problem. Our people have higher reported infection rates because our people are the ones being targeted for HIV testing, our people are the main ones being reported as having so-called HIV antibodies present in blood, semen, saliva and breastmilk (although that doesn't mean it is only our people carrying those types of antibodies), and our people are the ones with the greatest number of AIDS casualties because our people are the ones in Afrika being misdiagnosed and miseducated, and our people are the ones in amerikkka and the Carribbean and elsewhere who are taking life threatening, not life preserving drugs and drug coctails to stave off any of 29 different illnesses designated as the AID syndrome.

DL mania simply works in tandem with HIV test mania and other misinformation to lead us to distrust one another and trust the other, and gradually die off in the process. The whole catastrophe is just beyond sad.

This is something to think about!
I work in healthcare , I've had at least 3-4 patients who have been positive since the 80's.Never took any medications and they are not sick! There was even one that had a child and wife and neither were infected.
How is this possible?
And where did AIDS/HIV truthfully come from?

This thread is saturated with misinformation. I'm not picking on you, Panafrica, but this statement here did a disservice to the remainder of your post and the one preceeding it, which were on point.

Oh well...can't be right 100% of the time, thanks for clearing thangs up!

I don’t want to stop anyone from using, every and all precautions when necessary, when having sex with a stranger, lover or fiancée. But African Americans need to be more proactively investigating and analyzing the HIV/AIDS infection question for ourselves and stop being so passive and overly accepting of everything that the government is telling us via the media.

There are a lot of controversial but legitimate dissenting voices in the scientific and medical research community about the HIV/AIDS issue. We are accepting the information given us by the CDC and the media too haphazardly, and as a result we are still dieing off in large numbers.

Many unheard voices in the scientific community have tried challenge this media and financial driven campaign against HIV/AIDS. Some of the ideas that are academically challenged are; one, can condoms really protect from the HIV pathogen? Is HIV really the direct cause of AIDS? Are the transmissions in Africa really sexually based? And why are people being prescribed AZT, which is really automatic death sentence?

Some of the facts and arguments that are being made my preeminent and esteemed scientist and researchers are more than believable.

The DL scare, just like the Avian Flu scare, it is meant for a far more greater affect. The DL enigma is being fostered to alter the reproduction capabilities of African American people. We need to be more vigilant in our studies and always suspect of whites and the media.

What is your solution to the shrinking pool of available African American men?

As far as my solution to the shrinking pool of available african american men, I have no problems dating outside of my race.

Shadow[/QUOTE]

Didn't take em long did it?

Does this issue make you stop and think: Have I dated any men who are on the “down-low?” In a society where African American men are more likely to keep their bisexuality a secret, have you gotten to the point where you assume that every man is bisexual, to be on the safe side? What is your solution to the shrinking pool of available African American men?
As far as my solution to the shrinking pool of available african american men, I have no problems dating outside of my race.

Didn't take em long did it?
Tell me about it brother....

The more I think about this thread and others like it, Black women are buying into anything white folks say, and all the sensationalism of white-controlled Black women magazines as if it’s the gospel truth. Though there are statistics that reveal that Black women may be exceeding and excelling in higher education in greater numbers than Black men, it’s obvious they are not using their more educated minds wisely or introspectively.

What has happen to the mother-wit and common sense of your grandmothers, who could see through the white man’s tricks? The white folks are lumping up the accusations, lies and deceptions concerning Black manhood and are now shooting for the coup de grace.

If you follow the movies, media and these shallow negro magazines, it is being implied and viewed in some form or fashion, that all Black men are possibly either inept, thugs, gangsters, drug dealers, murderers, abandon their homes, incestuous, misogynistic and have now gone from oversexed to now bi-sexual (on the Down Low).

Then by default, the white man becomes an automatic option, as he’s viewed without stain, blame or blemish. As if white men don’t exemplify any of the above pathologies, and even sometimes in much greater numbers.

It seems like, it has become a sport and favorite pastime in order for the selling of books, magazines and movies to vilify, malign, castigate and now emasculate the nature of Black men.

Black women are like sheep falling off a cliff, following one decpetion after another.


Peace

MeMySelfNi
Does this issue make you stop and think: Have I dated any men who are on the “down-low?” In a society where African American men are more likely to keep their bisexuality a secret, have you gotten to the point where you assume that every man is bisexual, to be on the safe side? What is your solution to the shrinking pool of available African American men?
I definitely went through a stage of suspecting nearly all men of being on the DL. After reading JL King's two books, I went tripping out of my mind, I admit. I felt sure my ex was on the DL. I even cried hysterically after reading those two books, or maybe after the first one :lol:. That was just a stage. I came to my senses eventually. JL King maintains that not all, not even most brothers are on the DL. It's scary though the myriad walks of life where they can be found. I also told myself I would presume that possibility for all men, "to be on the safe side." I wish I could say that I have a solution to the shrinking pool of available Afrikan men, but it seems to me a lot of us are going to have to just hang it up unless we either "settle" or "share."

Running into the arms of yt could never be a solution for me personally, and you can put that on the record. For every sickness that afflicts some black men, I can name at least three that afflict caucazoid males. I've never heard of a brother raping a farm animal, for example, but that's common among caucazoid boys, from what I've been told. Not meaning to sound sick or perverse or graphic, but I've heard lots of folk say that. May or may not be true, but I want no parts of their culture regardless. I couldn't even imagine.

Tell me about it brother....

The more I think about this thread and others like it, Black women are buying into anything white folks say, and all the sensationalism of white-controlled Black women magazines as if it’s the gospel truth. Though there are statistics that reveal that Black women may be exceeding and excelling in higher education in greater numbers than Black men, it’s obvious they are not using their more educated minds wisely or introspectively.

What has happen to the mother-wit and common sense of your grandmothers, who could see through the white man’s tricks? The white folks are lumping up the accusations, lies and deceptions concerning Black manhood and are now shooting for the coup de grace.

If you follow the movies, media and these shallow negro magazines, it is being implied and viewed in some form or fashion, that all Black men are possibly either inept, thugs, gangsters, drug dealers, murderers, abandon their homes, incestuous, misogynistic and have now gone from oversexed to now bi-sexual (on the Down Low).

Then by default, the white man becomes an automatic option, as he’s viewed without stain, blame or blemish. As if white men don’t exemplify any of the above pathologies, and even sometimes in much greater numbers.

It seems like, it has become a sport and favorite pastime in order for the selling of books, magazines and movies to vilify, malign, castigate and now emasculate the nature of Black men.

Black women are like sheep falling off a cliff, following one decpetion after another.


Peace

What's new?

I've never heard of a brother raping a farm animal, for example, but that's common among caucazoid boys, from what I've been told. Not meaning to sound sick or perverse or graphic, but I've heard lots of folk say that. May or may not be true, but I want no parts of their culture regardless. I couldn't even imagine.

I once dated an East African guy who told me that the young males in his country regularly had sex with sheep there.

He said they do it because their society is very conservative and post-puberty males and females are kept separated almost completely unless they're chaperoned. There is no such thing as unchaperoned dating or premarital sex. Premarital sex is harshly punished or could get you killed. In other words, the only way for a man to have sex there is if he marries a woman, or buys sex from a prostitute and many young males are too poor to buy sex. They are also too poor to marry young because they have to get money for the dowry. So the sheep are the only thing left.

I once dated an East African guy who told me that the young males in his country regularly had sex with sheep there.

He said they do it because their society is very conservative and post-puberty males and females are kept separated almost completely unless they're chaperoned. There is no such thing as unchaperoned dating or premarital sex. Premarital sex is harshly punished or could get you killed. In other words, the only way for a man to have sex there is if he marries a woman, or buys sex from a prostitute and many young males are too poor to buy sex. They are also too poor to marry young because they have to get money for the dowry. So the sheep are the only thing left.


I wonder how many Brothers have actually studied the history of bestiality or homosexuality in Africa.

Some of the studies I have done are real eye openers. For example, some of the current political leaders who are the most vocal in blaming the white colonists for the rise of homosexuality never complained when many of these same gay and lesbian organizations gave them financial and material support during the anti-apartheid and anti-colonial struggles.

I wonder how many Brothers who are quick to profess Islam have actually studied how homosexuality is believed by many to have been spread by Arab slave traders, along the coast of EAST Africa...

Or how many African scholars don't necessarily blame white Christian colonists for spreading homosexuality but HOMOPHOBIA!!

:oops:

I once dated an East African guy who told me that the young males in his country regularly had sex with sheep there.

He said they do it because their society is very conservative and post-puberty males and females are kept separated almost completely unless they're chaperoned. There is no such thing as unchaperoned dating or premarital sex. Premarital sex is harshly punished or could get you killed. In other words, the only way for a man to have sex there is if he marries a woman, or buys sex from a prostitute and many young males are too poor to buy sex. They are also too poor to marry young because they have to get money for the dowry. So the sheep are the only thing left.

Why don't they masturbate? Even if that has shame attached to it that's got to be a better compromise.

I don't understand how sexual suppression leads some to consider behaviors that most religions, cultures, etc. consider MORE immoral. Like the Catholic priests... they are sleeping with little boys which most Christians would consider a worse sin. It's homosexuality and pedophila.

Why don't they masturbate? Even if that has shame attached to it that's got to be a better compromise.

I don't understand how sexual suppression leads some to consider behaviors that most religions, cultures, etc. consider MORE immoral. Like the Catholic priests... they are sleeping with little boys which most Christians would consider a worse sin. It's homosexuality and pedophila.

"Why don't they masterbate?"

They probably do.

The fact remains the ZOOPHILIA is believed to be a long standing practice among certain tribal groups not only in Africa, but among various indigenous societies..

Just research the topic for yourself...I am sure anyone who does so will be surprised to say the least...

I think the most shocking details are those which obviously link certain practices to ancient Egypt (Khemet), PRIOR to the adoptation of these same practices by the greeks and romans...

Of course, this is also a long denied historical TRUTH....

I once dated an East African guy who told me that the young males in his country regularly had sex with sheep there.

He said they do it because their society is very conservative and post-puberty males and females are kept separated almost completely unless they're chaperoned. There is no such thing as unchaperoned dating or premarital sex. Premarital sex is harshly punished or could get you killed. In other words, the only way for a man to have sex there is if he marries a woman, or buys sex from a prostitute and many young males are too poor to buy sex. They are also too poor to marry young because they have to get money for the dowry. So the sheep are the only thing left.


This is my first time hearing of this, although it is certainly not unbelievable. What country is the East Afrikan brother from?

What I find interesting is the variety of dynamics that compel people to engage in deviant sexual encounters. Personally, I can't imagine that any type of restraint of my having access to a man would compel me to engage in intercourse with a woman or animal. But we know that conditions like imprisonment without conjugal visits and the situation you described in East Afrika have a way of compelling some to deviate sexually.

On the other hand, we live in a society where just about anyone in the so-called free world can have intercourse on any day at any time they wish with another human being of the opposite sex, yet many choose same sex and animals. In THIS country, to my knowledge, it is caucasian males and females who choose sheep, chickens, goats, horses and dogs and the like. For this reason, among others, you have foreign germs showing up in the bodily fluids of humans, which wind up getting identified as the HIV-virus, which is very similar to a common bovine virus, yet are not in fact a HUMAN immunodeficiency virus, nevertheless those folk who worship the sexual liberation idea and screw around with whomever and whatever--eventually pay for their lack of discrimination--and wind up dead as a result.

Why don't they masturbate? Even if that has shame attached to it that's got to be a better compromise.

I don't understand how sexual suppression leads some to consider behaviors that most religions, cultures, etc. consider MORE immoral. Like the Catholic priests... they are sleeping with little boys which most Christians would consider a worse sin. It's homosexuality and pedophila.

Yeah, that Catholic church stuff is pedophilia, plain and simple. I don't know whether those priests only go after boys or what. I have no problem with homosexuality as long as it's between consenting ADULTS. I think pedophiles need to be forced to have their sex urge chemically supressed or sent to a desert island or somewhere, whether they hetero or homo because they are some very destructive people.

I think there are many sexual practices that go on in some cultures and societies that are done with a wink and a nod because they serve a purpose. In this case, having sex with sheep gave these young men a release and kept them from trying to "touch" and impregnate young unmarried females, which would have gotten them killed and the girls too. In other words, it helped to control their libidoes and we know that some libidoes are stronger than others. The sex impulse is one of the strongest to control everywhere.
.

This is my first time hearing of this, although it is certainly not unbelievable. What country is the East Afrikan brother from?

What I find interesting is the variety of dynamics that compel people to engage in deviant sexual encounters. Personally, I can't imagine that any type of restraint of my having access to a man would compel me to engage in intercourse with a woman or animal. But we know that conditions like imprisonment without conjugal visits and the situation you described in East Afrika have a way of compelling some to deviate sexually.

On the other hand, we live in a society where just about anyone in the so-called free world can have intercourse on any day at any time they wish with another human being of the opposite sex, yet many choose same sex and animals. In THIS country, to my knowledge, it is caucasian males and females who choose sheep, chickens, goats, horses and dogs and the like. For this reason, among others, you have foreign germs showing up in the bodily fluids of humans, which wind up getting identified as the HIV-virus, which is very similar to a common bovine virus, yet are not in fact a HUMAN immunodeficiency virus, nevertheless those folk who worship the sexual liberation idea and screw around with whomever and whatever--eventually pay for their lack of discrimination--and wind up dead as a result.

"For this reason, among others, you have germs showing up in bodily fluids of humans...."


I did not want to go there but, I encourage you to research some articles of ZOOPHILIA....

Folks are also linking the point you made to what has occured in Africa....and sheep are not the only animals, nor monkeys...


Goats....donkeys.....crocidiles....and some of these practices ARE believed to be linked to initiation rites of passage....

This is my first time hearing of this, although it is certainly not unbelievable. What country is the East Afrikan brother from?

What I find interesting is the variety of dynamics that compel people to engage in deviant sexual encounters. Personally, I can't imagine that any type of restraint of my having access to a man would compel me to engage in intercourse with a woman or animal. But we know that conditions like imprisonment without conjugal visits and the situation you described in East Afrika have a way of compelling some to deviate sexually.

On the other hand, we live in a society where just about anyone in the so-called free world can have intercourse on any day at any time they wish with another human being of the opposite sex, yet many choose same sex and animals. In THIS country, to my knowledge, it is caucasian males and females who choose sheep, chickens, goats, horses and dogs and the like. For this reason, among others, you have foreign germs showing up in the bodily fluids of humans, which wind up getting identified as the HIV-virus, which is very similar to a common bovine virus, yet are not in fact a HUMAN immunodeficiency virus, nevertheless those folk who worship the sexual liberation idea and screw around with whomever and whatever--eventually pay for their lack of discrimination--and wind up dead as a result.

I don't think it's fair to name the country because it may be practiced in a bunch of places there and everywhere for all I know.

Regarding people having sex anytime they want, are you sure? LOL!! I would agree this is probably true for most women, but some men are too timid to even buy sex, let alone get it from a woman in any other way. I've read this is one of the reason why some males and females become pedophiles. They are AFRAID of grown women or men and can only relate to children.

I wonder how many Brothers have actually studied the history of bestiality or homosexuality in Africa.

I wonder how many Brothers who are quick to profess Islam have actually studied how homosexuality is believed by many to have been spread by Arab slave traders, along the coast of EAST Africa...

:oops:
Brother omowalejabali, this is an excellent point; as we try to investigate the question about, how did homosexuality noticeably appear in early African history.

You’re right brother, these Arab enslavers were castrating Black men in east Africa and making them eunuchs in large numbers. And we know that this made these eunuchs physiologically effeminized, and in this unique case probably induced homosexuality. We sometimes forget that the Arab controlled transcontinental slave trade pre-dated the European Transatlantic slave trade by hundreds of years.

Also, I seen it mentioned about this so-called zoophilia. Remember Asiatics, Greeks and Arabs were pouring in and conquering in Africa collectively for a few millenniums (especially in east and northeast Africa), and through hegemony and acculturation, they may have inculcated African cultures historically in ways we are not aware of or have yet to consider.

Africans worldwide can sometimes be very adaptable people and this can sometimes be to our detriment.

Peace

"For this reason, among others, you have germs showing up in bodily fluids of humans...."


I did not want to go there but, I encourage you to research some articles of ZOOPHILIA....

The topic of zoophilia doesn't interest me, for one. Two, in the early '90s around 1993, I stumbled upon the topic of zoophilia while researching a completely unrelated topic via a newsgroup online, where a group of zoophiles had congregated and built an online safehaven for one another, were discussing the eroticism of their sickness, talking about the beauty and the consent of their dogs and especially horses, and defending their own and their pets' rights to engage in the practice. That was far more than I really wanted to know about the wickedness of that subgroup of humans.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be attempting to direct me to research some writings about bestiality among Afrikan groups. Whose writings?

Folks are also linking the point you made to what has occured in Africa....and sheep are not the only animals, nor monkeys...


Goats....donkeys.....crocidiles....and some of these practices ARE believed to be linked to initiation rites of passage....

Whose beliefs are we talking about?

I don't think it's fair to name the country because it may be practiced in a bunch of places there and everywhere for all I know.

Regarding people having sex anytime they want, are you sure? LOL!! I would agree this is probably true for most women, but some men are too timid to even buy sex, let alone get it from a woman in any other way. I've read this is one of the reason why some males and females become pedophiles. They are AFRAID of grown women or men and can only relate to children.

This is why I said "just about" any person in the so-called free world can have intercourse at any time. I am hopeful that pedophiles are a small minority of the population. Also, lots of pedophiles are husbands, so not all, or probably even most fit that category of the timid guy who is afraid of women, though certainly there are some in that category.

It's difficult to assess the validity of the claim you made when one can not ask persons of that area about their knowledge of the practice in that area. I would rather ask someone with direct knowledge of a particular culture than rely solely on heresay or the writings of anthropologists who have no real interest in the culture.

Brother omowalejabali, this is an excellent point; as we try to investigate the question about, how did homosexuality noticeably appear in early African history.

You’re right brother, these Arab enslavers were castrating Black men in east Africa and making them eunuchs in large numbers. And we know that this made these eunuchs physiologically effeminized, and in this unique case probably induced homosexuality. We sometimes forget that the Arab controlled transcontinental slave trade pre-dated the European Transatlantic slave trade by hundreds of years.

Also, I seen it mentioned about this so-called zoophilia. Remember Asiatics, Greeks and Arabs were pouring in and conquering in Africa collectively for a few millenniums (especially in east and northeast Africa), and through hegemony and acculturation, they may have inculcated African cultures historically in ways we are not aware of or have yet to consider.

Africans worldwide can sometimes be very adaptable people and this can sometimes be to our detriment.

Peace


I know this can get very heated and I do not intend on offending any of my Islamic Sisters or Brothers. Nor any of my People who are ATR practitioners or believe in Khemetic Spirituality...

But growing up in a Black community, being educated in a Baptist elementary school at a time period when Black preachers in Los Angeles were castrated and killed for belonging to an alledged "homosexual ring"...then atending a catholic church where a few of my sisters classmates are STILL fighting lawsuits against sexually abusive priests (re. St Agatha's)...I have some very strong reasons for not belonging to any particular religious faith or denomination...

We, African people, have a tendency to blame ALL of our sexual perversions and wayward behaviour on yt, even though within our own religious texts these have been recorded and written into CODE by the biblical and quranic texts....yet, too many of US are in self-denial of our own perversion...

Quite frankly, i'm tired of holding my tongue on most of the BS that is propagandized under the cloak of politically correctness and "Black Thought"...continued historical revisionision and romanticism which serves no purpose except contined delusion and schizophrenic behavior reinforcing a colonized, pathological "raping of our own minds"...

Just TWO suggested readings:

Islam's Black Slaves by Ronald Segal

White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million White Slaves...by Giles Milton....

The late Master Elder historian J.A. Rogers was at one time branded a communist and had his books banned because he went into very specific details, and IMO no one should even post in these kind of threads unless they have been SCHOOLED EXTENSIVELY by his "Sex and Race", "From Superman to Man", and "Africa's Gift to America"...

i would think that by now the teachings of Master Rard and the Hon. Elijah Muhammad concerning "Yacoub's History" would have been given an honest and thorough critique...

the FACTS are....in that body of SUPREME KNOWLEDGE alone is an explanation of how OUR own defective, mutative chracter and genetive make-up was used by an AFRICAN SCIENTIST to "graft and create" "the Beast"...

which is FROM US and a part OF US and OUR "genetic" mutation and de-evolution....

And when the Messenger spoke of how our "Indian" Brothers were "cast out" they were believed to have been guilty of the very same perversion and sexual deviation discussed so far in this thread....

and sadly enough, this perversion later spread to to very same shores along the EAST AFRICAN coastline...

long BEFORE any such thing as "europe" was even formed as a continental land-mass...

The topic of zoophilia doesn't interest me, for one. Two, in the early '90s around 1993, I stumbled upon the topic of zoophilia while researching a completely unrelated topic via a newsgroup online, where a group of zoophiles had congregated and built an online safehaven for one another, were discussing the eroticism of their sickness, talking about the beauty and the consent of their dogs and especially horses, and defending their own and their pets' rights to engage in the practice. That was far more than I really wanted to know about the wickedness of that subgroup of humans.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be attempting to direct me to research some writings about bestiality among Afrikan groups. Whose writings?



Whose beliefs are we talking about?

Since you state the the topic of zoophilia does not interest you I shall decline to specifically reference any particular writings explaining how this phenomenon is related to specific African cultures.....

The information has long been chronicled among a variety of sources, ancient and modern...

Peace!
Omowale.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be attempting to direct me to research some writings about bestiality among Afrikan groups. Whose writings?

Whose beliefs are we talking about?
Since you state the the topic of zoophilia does not interest you I shall decline to specifically reference any particular writings explaining how this phenomenon is related to specific African cultures.....

The information has long been chronicled among a variety of sources, ancient and modern...

Peace!
Omowale.
I know one thing for sure…I wouldn’t be talking about these subjects if I didn’t think we needed to get to the bottom of these issues once and for all!

If we overly romanticize our ideas about all of Africa’s history, cultural proclivities or possible practices, than we can’t find the truth of the matter as it comes to our present problems. The better you diagnose a disease, the better chance you have to surgically or holistically remove it. But also, if you are functioning on half-truths, rumors or outright lies, than you may constantly be deceived and the disinformation will always be a "thorn in our sides."

I would rather scientifically and scholarly investigate at some point, pedophilia, homosexuality and even zoophilia, for it is important to get the absolute final truth on the matter, and then eventually cure our people from any and all of these pathologies wherever they are present. We need to get to the root of the causalities and not just wrestle with these conditions one generation after the other. We also need to use our sciences, research skills, metaphysical knowledge, and wisdom, not just a lot of blowing in the wind at these deviant practices or lifestyles.

It’s just like HIV/AIDS, because we don’t have control over our health issues or the facts, instead of the pathogen or the condition being eradicated, the misdiagnosing and mistreating of the disease is eradicating the people! In medicine, you suppose to kill the disease not the host!

We the Black scientist and shamans of our cultural realities are responsible for our future, and should not be afraid of any issue in order to save and redeem our people from extinction!


Peace :cool:

We, African people, have a tendency to blame ALL of our sexual perversions and wayward behaviour on yt, even though within our own religious texts these have been recorded and written into CODE by the biblical and quranic texts....yet, too many of US are in self-denial of our own perversion...

In other words, you are using the Bible and Quran to point to so-called Afrikan perversions? Just correct me if I read wrong. Also, one can not be in denial of his or her own perversion if the perversion is not characteristic of self.

The late Master Elder historian J.A. Rogers was at one time branded a communist and had his books banned because he went into very specific details, and IMO no one should even post in these kind of threads unless they have been SCHOOLED EXTENSIVELY by his "Sex and Race", "From Superman to Man", and "Africa's Gift to America"...

If no one posted in these kinds of threads unless they were "schooled extensively" by J.A. Rogers, I am guessing there would be very few members posting in these types of threads. I own books by J.A. Rogers and have read some, though not all cover to cover. Does that mean I have nothing to contribute to this topic? Do those who have not read J.A. Rogers have nothing to contribute? It would be absurd to think so.

i would think that by now the teachings of Master Rard and the Hon. Elijah Muhammad concerning "Yacoub's History" would have been given an honest and thorough critique...

the FACTS are....in that body of SUPREME KNOWLEDGE alone is an explanation of how OUR own defective, mutative chracter and genetive make-up was used by an AFRICAN SCIENTIST to "graft and create" "the Beast"...

which is FROM US and a part OF US and OUR "genetic" mutation and de-evolution....

In which case is also a part of us THAT MUST BE DESTROYED.

And when the Messenger spoke of how our "Indian" Brothers were "cast out" they were believed to have been guilty of the very same perversion and sexual deviation discussed so far in this thread....

and sadly enough, this perversion later spread to to very same shores along the EAST AFRICAN coastline...

long BEFORE any such thing as "europe" was even formed as a continental land-mass...

Nevertheless, sexual deviancy seems to be a prevalent practice among europeons today.

On the other hand, we live in a society where just about anyone in the so-called free world can have intercourse on any day at any time they wish with another human being of the opposite sex.
say what? i can?
are you volunteering?

Nevertheless, sexual deviancy seems to be a prevalent practice among europeons today.



It also is very prevalent among Africans today and a leading cause for the high death rate due to AIDS/HIV....

The evidence to this is INSURMOUNTABLE...

The sooner that WE recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion, the sooner WE will get a handle on an escalating health crisis..

The sooner that WE recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion, the sooner WE will get a handle on an escalating health crisis..
^5
yes to that.
it may be a time to back up off the sex stuff.

It also is very prevalent among Africans today and a leading cause for the high death rate due to AIDS/HIV....

The evidence to this is INSURMOUNTABLE...

The sooner that WE recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion, the sooner WE will get a handle on an escalating health crisis..


I agree.

One of the first places to start would be in the prisons.

say what? i can?
are you volunteering?

Hell no.

I'm an exception to the rule. You all can make a joke out of the reality all you want, but from what I can tell, it's not that difficult to find for anyone. There are meat markets everywhere. The club. The office. The church. The corner. Even the dang public library these days, it hurts me to say.

Hell no.

I'm an exception to the rule. You all can make a joke out of the reality all you want, but from what I can tell, it's not that difficult to find for anyone. There are meat markets everywhere. The club. The office. The church. The corner. Even the dang public library these days, it hurts me to say.
i have never experienced your reality at all.
i don't suppose you might consider that you might be wrong on this point?

I agree.

One of the first places to start would be in the prisons.

The frightening reality is how the AIDS/HIV crisis escalated in South Africa between 1992 to 1998, despite all of President Mandela's effort to address the growing epidemic. Specifically, within the prison population and escalating sexual crimes within the general population.

Prison conditions all throughout Africa, particularly in Botswana, Zaire, and Burundi, just to name a few, are a leading contributor and I think an extensive study of how some of these relationships are transferred when some of these inmates re-enter society...

Really, there has to be some good reason why countries such as Zimbabwe have such a low tolerance for certain specific sexual practices.

It also is very prevalent among Africans today and a leading cause for the high death rate due to AIDS/HIV....

The evidence to this is INSURMOUNTABLE...

The sooner that WE recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion, the sooner WE will get a handle on an escalating health crisis..

If you are speaking of Afrikans of the diaspora, I'll give you that homosexuality seems to be prevalent and a leading cause of the AIDS death rate. But when I said sexual deviancy, I was speaking of beastiality.

The way that we need to recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion is to leave caucasians and same sex partners ALONE. Those are the top two avenues by which fatal sexual germs are being transmitted to and then among Afrikans. Some of you love to minimize the role of non-Afrikans in this mess we find ourselves in, while simultaneously shifting the origins of all social ills into the laps of Afrikans. While I wholeheartedly agree we need to clean up our own acts, we need not walk about blind to the fact that those ills have historically surfaced and multiplied out of control each and every time we have increased our contact and assimilation among non-Afrikans.

i have never experienced your reality at all.
i don't suppose you might consider that you might be wrong on this point?

I could be wrong. It may appear easier than it really is for some.

If you are speaking of Afrikans of the diaspora, I'll give you that homosexuality seems to be prevalent and a leading cause of the AIDS death rate. But when I said sexual deviancy, I was speaking of beastiality.

The way that we need to recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion is to leave caucasians and same sex partners ALONE. Those are the top two avenues by which fatal sexual germs are being transmitted to and then among Afrikans. Some of you love to minimize the role of non-Afrikans in this mess we find ourselves in, while simultaneously shifting the origins of all social ills into the laps of Afrikans. While I wholeheartedly agree we need to clean up our own acts, we need not walk about blind to the fact that those ills have historically surfaced and multiplied out of control each and every time we have increased our contact and assimilation among non-Afrikans.
"If you are speaking of Afrikans of the diaspora, I'll give you that homosexuality seems to be prevalent and a leading cause of the AIDS death rate"

I do believe that I mentioned the escalation of this problem in South Africa during a specific time period, much of which is well documented, and which has led to Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe's numerous legislations in regards to homosexuality in particular..

For the purpose of this discusssion I have not , nor do I intend to limit my focus on any one particular practice or sexual "deviation" in which Black African MEN are involved. At home, or in the Diaspora.

For one, I am NOT exhonorating or excusing on yt. If is my "opinion" that Black people need to GET OUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER, and focus on what WE need to do, instead of focusing on the influence of "outsiders" as our MAIN focus...

If i was in Cali and got locked down today i KNOW that my MAIN concern would be surviving among mostly Black and Brown men, and if would be from my own BROTHERS who I would have to keep a watch on to avoid getting turned out because most likely that is exactly who I would be locked down with...

And in AFRICAN PRISON SYSTEMS this is one of the leading vehicles for the proliferation of not only AIDS/HIV but hepatitis and other ailments as well...

If you are speaking of Afrikans of the diaspora, I'll give you that homosexuality seems to be prevalent and a leading cause of the AIDS death rate. But when I said sexual deviancy, I was speaking of beastiality.

The way that we need to recognize and correct our own sexual deviation and perversion is to leave caucasians and same sex partners ALONE. Those are the top two avenues by which fatal sexual germs are being transmitted to and then among Afrikans. Some of you love to minimize the role of non-Afrikans in this mess we find ourselves in, while simultaneously shifting the origins of all social ills into the laps of Afrikans. While I wholeheartedly agree we need to clean up our own acts, we need not walk about blind to the fact that those ills have historically surfaced and multiplied out of control each and every time we have increased our contact and assimilation among non-Afrikans.


By the way, the ESCALATION of AIDS/HIV in South Africa has scaled OUT OF CONTROL in "Post Apartheid South Africa"!!!

I know one thing for sure…I wouldn’t be talking about these subjects if I didn’t think we needed to get to the bottom of these issues once and for all!

If we overly romanticize our ideas about all of Africa’s history, cultural proclivities or possible practices, than we can’t find the truth of the matter as it comes to our present problems. The better you diagnose a disease, the better chance you have to surgically or holistically remove it. But also, if you are functioning on half-truths, rumors or outright lies, than you may constantly be deceived and the disinformation will always be a "thorn in our sides."

I would rather scientifically and scholarly investigate at some point, pedophilia, homosexuality and even zoophilia, for it is important to get the absolute final truth on the matter, and then eventually cure our people from any and all of these pathologies wherever they are present. We need to get to the root of the causalities and not just wrestle with these conditions one generation after the other. We also need to use our sciences, research skills, metaphysical knowledge, and wisdom, not just a lot of blowing in the wind at these deviant practices or lifestyles.

It’s just like HIV/AIDS, because we don’t have control over our health issues or the facts, instead of the pathogen or the condition being eradicated, the misdiagnosing and mistreating of the disease is eradicating the people! In medicine, you suppose to kill the disease not the host!

We the Black scientist and shamans of our cultural realities are responsible for our future, and should not be afraid of any issue in order to save and redeem our people from extinction!


Peace :cool:

I am hopeful that this is no implication that I am romanticising Afrika's history, culture and/or practices. Even if both homosexuality and bestiality originated in Afrika (which I doubt, but they may have), neither is a part of my own Afrikan nature anyway, and as such, I doubt a part of my own bloodline. At any rate, although I agree the root of sexual deviancy must be identified and traced, bestiality is simply not one of my areas of interest, not an issue I am going to devote an exhorbitant amount of time to, and not a practice with which I want any close encounters--I merely pointed out the commonness of the practice today among caucasians on this soil.

For one, I am NOT exhonorating or excusing on yt. If is my "opinion" that Black people need to GET OUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER, and focus on what WE need to do, instead of focusing on the influence of "outsiders" as our MAIN focus...

If i was in Cali and got locked down today i KNOW that my MAIN concern would be surviving among mostly Black and Brown men, and if would be from my own BROTHERS who I would have to keep a watch on to avoid getting turned out because most likely that is exactly who I would be locked down with...

And in AFRICAN PRISON SYSTEMS this is one of the leading vehicles for the proliferation of not only AIDS/HIV but hepatitis and other ailments as well...

SO True. Also, when those infected continental African men come out of prison and go home to their wives, unfortunately their women CANNOT SAY NO to having sex with their husbands without paying a very heavy price. African women don't have the right to say NO to sex with their husbands among the cultural cross-sections of women I've talked with. Saying No is considered a very western notion.

African women, I know, talk about this all the time--that if an African woman says no to having sex with her husband, his whole family will turn on her and sometimes hers will too. He can beat her or easily force her out of the house and take another wife, and she will get very little sympathy or support from others in the society.

We're just here with the luxury of talking about this stuff, but some of our folks are living it.

By the way, the ESCALATION of AIDS/HIV in South Africa has scaled OUT OF CONTROL in "Post Apartheid South Africa"!!!

No need to use "HIV" when speaking of any place in Afrika.

Now do you think that the preponderance of AIDS in post-Apartheid SA has nothing to do with europeans? Do you think it has everything (or even mostly everything) to do with homosexual/anti-sexual encounters among South Afrikans?

I am hopeful that this is no implication that I am romanticising Afrika's history, culture and/or practices. Even if both homosexuality and bestiality originated in Afrika (which I doubt, but they may have), neither is a part of my own Afrikan nature anyway, and as such, I doubt a part of my own bloodline. At any rate, although I agree the root of sexual deviancy must be identified and traced, bestiality is simply not one of my areas of interest, not an issue I am going to devote an exhorbitant amount of time to, and not a practice with which I want any close encounters--I merely pointed out the commonness of the practice today among caucasians on this soil.


Bless-it Sister Nia Maishani, please me hopeful, because I wasn’t personalizing my response, but speaking in general as it applied to what was being discussed. I’m just trying to respond to each of the issues and parlaying off of the different ideas and opinions being presented.

I have no problem with the supposition that bestiality or any deviant sexual practices didn’t actually start in Africa. But IF these distorted sexual practices have been assimilated by ANY African culture in any way, I want a realistic account of its origins, so we as progressive Africans can understand how to remove it. I’m just saying that, we all know African historical culture can sometimes be overly romanticized in our broader African-centered community. And also, if invaders have introduced foreign sexual perversions, than we should also know that for sure.

Like I have said before, “try all things by the fire” and burn away the misconceptions, lies and theories.

--I merely pointed out the commonness of the practice (bestiality) today among caucasians on this soil.
if one beast ***** another beast is that bestiality?

SO True. Also, when those infected continental African men come out of prison and go home to their wives, unfortunately their women CANNOT SAY NO to having sex with their husbands without paying a very heavy price. African women don't have the right to say NO to sex with their husbands among the cultural cross-sections of women I've talked with. Saying No is considered a very western notion.

African women, I know, talk about this all the time--that if an African woman says no to having sex with her husband, his whole family will turn on her and sometimes hers will too. He can beat her or easily force her out of the house and take another wife, and she will get very little sympathy or support from others in the society.

We're just here with the luxury of talking about this stuff, but some of our folks are living it.
and this is the reason why i do not take kindly to African cats critiquing AA brothers treatment of sisters.
if you live in a glass house, shut the **** up.
can U feel me?

and this is the reason why i do not take kindly to African cats critiquing AA brothers treatment of sisters.
if you live in a glass house, shut the **** up.
can U feel me?
Firstly, we're not here discussing how Afrikan men treat their women. Second, it's a blanket statement to even speak of how wives are treated in Afrika, a continent of 52 separate nations with a plethora of different sub-cultures (at least as many as there are nations). Third, although this should never be made into an "us" vs. "them" discussion in terms of Afrikans globally speaking, the united snakkkes leads the world in domestic violence incidence. Moreover, last I heard, a so-called African American wife (or unwed female mate, for that matter) had better NOT think of withholding. For ANY reason.

Next, we are living the same nightmare as they are in Afrika, just not on as large a scale. We, meaning Afrikans dealing with the AIDS crisis. And just like crack-cocaine, the health crisis was introduced into our neighborhoods by the enemy, and now we sit here helplessly looking at one another for solutions on how to slay the dragon (and blaming one another for its relentlessness).

and this is the reason why i do not take kindly to African cats critiquing AA brothers treatment of sisters.
if you live in a glass house, shut the **** up.
can U feel me?

Yes, James I can most certainly feel you on this!! See everything about Africa ain't pretty. I'm always telling AAs here that we romanticize Africa too much. It is what it is. It seems that AAs either romanticize and think it's heaven or they think it's hell. It's neither. Well, actually if you don't have some money there, it's pretty close to hell.

I love being there because the dollar goes a LONG way, so I'm like so RICH there. LOL!! I can afford a mansion there, complete with servants, a driver, belong to the poshest country clubs and all the rest. Lots of AAs are in Nigeria living large like that. It's pretty easy for AAs to live there because we can always leave when we want to leave and most of the cultural restrictions don't affect us. So we can participate in what we want and leave the rest.

BTW, you're one good-lookin Brotha!!! MY! My! I'm glad you stopped hiding behind that camera.

The frightening reality is how the AIDS/HIV crisis escalated in South Africa between 1992 to 1998, despite all of President Mandela's effort to address the growing epidemic. Specifically, within the prison population and escalating sexual crimes within the general population.

Prison conditions all throughout Africa, particularly in Botswana, Zaire, and Burundi, just to name a few, are a leading contributor and I think an extensive study of how some of these relationships are transferred when some of these inmates re-enter society...

Really, there has to be some good reason why countries such as Zimbabwe have such a low tolerance for certain specific sexual practices.

Brother omowalejabali, what’s interesting is that, this is prevalent in the U.S. prisons system also, but when I posed this observation to some of the young brothers they believe that sexual crimes are not that pervasive in the general population of the prison system or this will never affect those who are hard and thuggish.

They forget that, not only does a prison population who already had proclivities toward sexual deviation and perversion practice this sexual emasculation. But this is also in large part, an unnatural pathology that develops in most exclusively male institutions such as the Prison society. Basically where men are, for the most part artificially isolated from any female contact or interaction. These brutally enforced homosexual relationships are too many times a violent and distorted act of asserting male dominance; in other words a pecking order.

Firstly, we're not here discussing how Afrikan men treat their women. Second, it's a blanket statement to even speak of how wives are treated in Afrika, a continent of 52 separate nations with a plethora of different sub-cultures (at least as many as there are nations). Third, although this should never be made into an "us" vs. "them" discussion in terms of Afrikans globally speaking, the united snakkkes leads the world in domestic violence incidence. Moreover, last I heard, a so-called African American wife (or unwed female mate, for that matter) had better NOT think of withholding. For ANY reason.

Next, we are living the same nightmare as they are in Afrika, just not on as large a scale. We, meaning Afrikans dealing with the AIDS crisis. And just like crack-cocaine, the health crisis was introduced into our neighborhoods by the enemy, and now we sit here helplessly looking at one another for solutions on how to slay the dragon (and blaming one another for its relentlessness).

At a conference on Violence Against Women that I attended a couple of years ago, a Nigerian female M.D. listed the inability to say "NO to sex" as one form of violence against African women. She said it's a particularly insidious form of violence since the women can't say NO to sex without major repercussions. She said that many of the women get these terrible diseases from their husbands who feel it's their right to go out and whore around with whomever, get infected, and then some come home and have sex with their wives. I don't remember if she talked about men getting diseases in prison.

You're right that many women here do not feel empowered enough to say "NO" to sex with their men either, but there is no question that women here have many other options that they can exercise because women here are much more financially independent of men.


This MD also listed some other types of violence against African women. I was so sickened by what this doctor said that I discussed it with the women in my group, some of whom are Nigerians, Kenyans, Zambian, Tanzanian, and women from the Congo. They all agreed with what she said. As you said, these countries do not represent ALL of Africa.

SO True. Also, when those infected continental African men come out of prison and go home to their wives, unfortunately their women CANNOT SAY NO to having sex with their husbands without paying a very heavy price. African women don't have the right to say NO to sex with their husbands among the cultural cross-sections of women I've talked with. Saying No is considered a very western notion.

African women, I know, talk about this all the time--that if an African woman says no to having sex with her husband, his whole family will turn on her and sometimes hers will too. He can beat her or easily force her out of the house and take another wife, and she will get very little sympathy or support from others in the society.

We're just here with the luxury of talking about this stuff, but some of our folks are living it.


Do you think European women throughout Europe, Russian women, Asian women, Arab women, or even Latin women have any more substantial or quality of rights than African women?

.

Do you think European women throughout Europe, Russian women, Asian women, Arab women, or even Latin women have any more substantial or quality of rights than African women?

.

Actually, I doubt it, but I don't know precisely where there might be differences. I don't talk with these other women, but I do talk a lot with African women all the time. I'm very inquisitive about their interior lives as they are about what makes AA women tick. I know that many women throughout the world are not living in societies that empower them and this society that we live in doesn't either. Much of the power is synonymous with money in most places. If you don't have money, you just don't have many alternatives, even if you feel empowered. That goes for women and men.

Also, women do have a lot of money here, relatively speaking, and yet we still don't exercise the power that goes along with it because we get defeated by sexism that zaps us at an early age. It operates a lot like racism. Some of those -isms are so alike.

No need to use "HIV" when speaking of any place in Afrika.

Now do you think that the preponderance of AIDS in post-Apartheid SA has nothing to do with europeans? Do you think it has everything (or even mostly everything) to do with homosexual/anti-sexual encounters among South Afrikans?


"No need to use "HIV" when speaking of any place in Afrika."

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this statement but I am sure South African health officials would disagree.

As far as the questions which you directed to me, I did not state that this situation has NOTHING to do with "europeans" but YES, it does, OBVIOUSLY, have quite a lot to do with at least a recognition of increasing homosexual behavior in southern African societies and the fact that you would attempt to deny this is unfathomable.

Question: If this were not true, WHY would leaders such as Mugabe be so vocal on this issue? Why the heavy penalty for known homosexual behavior? WHY the preponderance of so many African countries which have passed laws forbidding homosexual activity? Why would an AIDS worker have been killed for revealing she was HIV positive?....


Earlier sister Riada declined to list one country in question, and I did the same but then mentioned a particular fact concerning post-Apartheid South Africa....my mention of Mugabe brings Zimbabwe into the picture....now your denial makes me mention one more....Kenya..

With all the articles concerning the sexual practices of the Masai...One of my best friends from grad school is a consulate general for the Kenyan government. Kipkorir Aly Rana. I am very good friends with his brother Hanif. Brother Aly's wife Phyllis works for a health relief agency, one which has also worked with groups in South Africa...

I have friends connected with the Black Consciousness Movement who have gone to Azania extensively. Working with AIDS relief and crack-addicted mothers.....I go what they say, which is why they are there working in the first place....establishing community programs and clinics in these two countries uniting efforts of continental Africans and African-Americans, and yet, these are folks that KNOW the similarlity of our conditions, at home and abroad, and have long acknowledged the reality instead of denying the FACTS..

Not only is this reality spreading among the southern african prison populations, but there are some practices particular to their "whifey" system. Furthermore, numerous instances of AIDS/HIV contraction have been linked even to the practice of tatooing...upon release from prison many ex-cons visit brothels....this contributes to rapid spread among the community of prostitutes, many of whom are intravenous drug users....

Cmon now....this is COMMON KNOWLEDGE.....and again, the similarities are striking in how much they are duplicated within american society among US...

Now I have mentioned at least three seperate countries....and if one researches the internet articles on zoophilia (yeah..back to that..) one will find numerous references to at least two or three tribal groups from these countries alone....

is this mere coincidence????:wink:

SO True. Also, when those infected continental African men come out of prison and go home to their wives, unfortunately their women CANNOT SAY NO to having sex with their husbands without paying a very heavy price. African women don't have the right to say NO to sex with their husbands among the cultural cross-sections of women I've talked with. Saying No is considered a very western notion.

African women, I know, talk about this all the time--that if an African woman says no to having sex with her husband, his whole family will turn on her and sometimes hers will too. He can beat her or easily force her out of the house and take another wife, and she will get very little sympathy or support from others in the society.

We're just here with the luxury of talking about this stuff, but some of our folks are living it.


Now let me add another dimension to this. Consider how this is played out in societies where POLYGAMY is common place, or where men are KNOWN to have multiple sex partners outside of marriage...

Ever seen Ousman Sembene's film "XALA" ??

He used a lot of symbolisim to explain how a lot of what is being discussed here has played out in post-Colonial Afrika and I find it very unfortunate that some folks still attempt to deny the obvious contradictions within Afrikan society and how deeply rooted these contradictions are, many of which PREDATE european colonialism...

Bless-it Sister Nia Maishani, please me hopeful, because I wasn’t personalizing my response, but speaking in general as it applied to what was being discussed. I’m just trying to respond to each of the issues and parlaying off of the different ideas and opinions being presented.

I have no problem with the supposition that bestiality or any deviant sexual practices didn’t actually start in Africa. But IF these distorted sexual practices have been assimilated by ANY African culture in any way, I want a realistic account of its origins, so we as progressive Africans can understand how to remove it. I’m just saying that, we all know African historical culture can sometimes be overly romanticized in our broader African-centered community. And also, if invaders have introduced foreign sexual perversions, than we should also know that for sure.

Like I have said before, “try all things by the fire” and burn away the misconceptions, lies and theories.

Brother, let me introduce yet another element.

There are many who claim that the Ethiopian "Beta IsRa'el" are the original "Black Jews".....many then claim that these same "Black Jews" included historical personages such as Moses, Solomon and Jesus....If "Moses" was Black then likewise was his brother Aaron....this further establishes a relationship with the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods...

Back to the "Law".....if these practices DID NOT exist in pre-colonial Afriak, why would the Beta Israel "Levitical Priesthood" be VERY SPECIFIC in prohibiting some VERY SPECIFIC sexual practices, and why would latter day "Hebrew Israelites" spend so much time focusing on Deuteronomy 28 which speaks of the generational curses inflicted upon "US" for violation of this very same Levitical Law???

See.....some Black folk want to have it both ways....Going back to my earlier reference to Elijah Muhammad's statements concerning our east "Indian" (Ethiopian) brethren......this was also a concern of VEDIC LAW.....and accounted for in Vedic literature!!

Again, some folks want to claim these ancient cultures then seek to deny or disclaim even their own literature and historical record!!

:yesno:

Firstly, we're not here discussing how Afrikan men treat their women. Second, it's a blanket statement to even speak of how wives are treated in Afrika, a continent of 52 separate nations with a plethora of different sub-cultures (at least as many as there are nations). Third, although this should never be made into an "us" vs. "them" discussion in terms of Afrikans globally speaking, the united snakkkes leads the world in domestic violence incidence. Moreover, last I heard, a so-called African American wife (or unwed female mate, for that matter) had better NOT think of withholding. For ANY reason.

Next, we are living the same nightmare as they are in Afrika, just not on as large a scale. We, meaning Afrikans dealing with the AIDS crisis. And just like crack-cocaine, the health crisis was introduced into our neighborhoods by the enemy, and now we sit here helplessly looking at one another for solutions on how to slay the dragon (and blaming one another for its relentlessness).


"And just like crack-cocaine, the health crisis was introduced into our neighborhoods by the enemy"

Let me stop there....this was part of the discussion I had yesterday with my homeboy Larry...and believe me....we would know because we LIVED THROUGH IT...

Firstly, in the early/mid 70s, long before "crack" brothers started smokin angel dust and PCP KNOWING it was used as "elephant tranquilizer"....I had a friend whose father was a dentist and he used to bring non-cut pharmaceutical "blow" to get our football team high....we went to a high school which was an open campus and brothers then used to bring in more drugs than the rich, jewish white boys!!!

It was US who went from "blow" to free-base, so by the time that cheap "crack" was "imported" I knew Brothers who were already long established with DEEP POCKETS in this game...

And I'm talking about a peer group that flooded the Hollywood Hills in the 70s and got XXXL in the 80s.....some now dead....some doing bids....but even more who are still rollin'...

and they now are in every fabric of Amerikkkan society...so please...not all of US have simply sat around helplessly looking for solutions...

Many of US have cleaned up our acts and now are raising our children to avoid making the same mistakes that many of US made...

Anyone helplessly looking for solutions ain't even in the game, let alone in a position to reach any "solutions"

GAME recognizes GAME.....:kickball:

And only an Old VET can accurately guide and teach a New Jack...

Brother omowalejabali, what’s interesting is that, this is prevalent in the U.S. prisons system also, but when I posed this observation to some of the young brothers they believe that sexual crimes are not that pervasive in the general population of the prison system or this will never affect those who are hard and thuggish.

They forget that, not only does a prison population who already had proclivities toward sexual deviation and perversion practice this sexual emasculation. But this is also in large part, an unnatural pathology that develops in most exclusively male institutions such as the Prison society. Basically where men are, for the most part artificially isolated from any female contact or interaction. These brutally enforced homosexual relationships are too many times a violent and distorted act of asserting male dominance; in other words a pecking order.

Brother Sun, the sad thing is now these young brothers who dont wanna listen, let them get caught up and do a bid in Cali, and find themselves gettin' turned out and tricked by them mexican mafia functionaries who Brothers used to run with an IRON FIST...

My Dad used to equate the "pecking order" with "sibling rivalry"....and you know how that's gonna play out in the future with the proliferation with all these wanna be thug "girly men"...

low end of the prison "stick game"...

Actually, I doubt it, but I don't know precisely where there might be differences. I don't talk with these other women, but I do talk a lot with African women all the time. I'm very inquisitive about their interior lives as they are about what makes AA women tick. I know that many women throughout the world are not living in societies that empower them and this society that we live in doesn't either. Much of the power is synonymous with money in most places. If you don't have money, you just don't have many alternatives, even if you feel empowered. That goes for women and men.

Also, women do have a lot of money here, relatively speaking, and yet we still don't exercise the power that goes along with it because we get defeated by sexism that zaps us at an early age. It operates a lot like racism. Some of those -isms are so alike.

Again, this points to my reference of Sembene's film "XALA"...it was a role reversal of exactly what you are explaining but with a focus on how this leads to the corruption and IMPOTENCE of many post-colonial African leaders...

and this IMPOTENCE is heightened with the rising social and political AWARENESS of African women...

Moreover, last I heard, a so-called African American wife (or unwed female mate, for that matter) had better NOT think of withholding. For ANY reason. .
where do you live? i want to come live in your world.......

You're right that many women here do not feel empowered enough to say "NO" to sex with their men either, but there is no question that women here have many other options that they can exercise because women here are much more financially independent of men.


This MD also listed some other types of violence against African women. I was so sickened by what this doctor said that I discussed it with the women in my group, some of whom are Nigerians, Kenyans, Zambian, Tanzanian, and women from the Congo. They all agreed with what she said. As you said, these countries do not represent ALL of Africa.
let me tell you a story.
an AA friend of mine had been going with an african cat for a long time.
she ended up in the hospital with a nervous breakdown.
when he came to visit her he asked her for a blow job there in the room.
she threw him out and then she called on me.
i'm one of those cats that they always call when they in trouble but never call when they got some ***** that they want to give up.
i was able to help her get back on her feet again as i have before.
last i heard from her they had her on a bunch of meds and in a group and she was trying to make it.

as i said, I do not take advice from africans.

"when he came to visit her he asked her for a blow job there in the room.
she threw him out and then she called on me."

He should've been the one in the hospital to get his head examined!!LOL. Good lookin' out, Jamesfrmphilly.

let me tell you a story.
an AA friend of mine had been going with an african cat for a long time.
she ended up in the hospital with a nervous breakdown.
when he came to visit her he asked her for a blow job there in the room.
she threw him out and then she called on me.
i'm one of those cats that they always call when they in trouble but never call when they got some ***** that they want to give up.
i was able to help her get back on her feet again as i have before.
last i heard from her they had her on a bunch of meds and in a group and she was trying to make it.

as i said, I do not take advice from africans.

James, I'm sorry to hear this about your friend, but it seems that her problems with him started a long time before she went into the hospital.

My question would be: why did she stay with him? I'm sure you've heard of other men treating women in a similar way. Surely, all the men who treat women badly are NOT African men.

The fact is that MANY women of all ethnicities and races allow men to treat them badly. While the men are SOBs, I focus on empowering women so that they feel worthy enough to DEMAND to be treated well. I demand the best treatment from a man because I'm worth it, so I get it. A man might think I'm a Blthch, but he's going to respect me and treat me well.

Sadly, there is a pattern in the lives of women who are like your friend. I've known LOTS of women like that. This type of woman will more than likely be poorly treated by most men of any ethnicity or race. In relationship after relationship, the majority are treated the same way.

I'm sure there are lots of African men in this country who are mistreating AA women this morning. I even know of some of them. These women are so happy to have a man until they stay right there and accept the abuse. The thing all of these women have in common is poor self-esteem that is rooted in being a female in a dominant, sexist, patriarchial structure. So you might as well be prepared for it because the mistreatment of women will continue for a very long time.