What's the deal with men and lesbian women? Why are so many men interested in lesbian women? Think it's not true? Go to personal websites and notice how many lesbian women post warnings-if you are a man don't write! What is it?

It is not the first time I've seen it. I have friends who think that getting involved with a lesbian would be a "great" relationship. What prompts this thinking? I have several lesbian friends who tell they are constantly pursued by heterosexual men who just won't take no for an answer. From their looks, I would be the first to admit that any male in his right mind would be interested in any of them, BUT-although I love beautiful women, my interest suddenly wanes when women aren't interested in me-no matter what their sexual persuasion.

So, why the hassle? I've seen men who can't no for an answer in heterosexual situations and they are the bane of disinterested women everywhere, but to pursue a woman who's interest is in other women seems like a clear chance to stay out of that no-win situation. Yet, they persist. Why? I am not naïve, but it seems so clear cut that why would anyone waste the effort? Do women try to seduce gay men?

I try my best not to judge anyone, but in this case I'm going to make an exception by saying that men who knowingly pursue these women either have no idea of what it is they are doing, which I doubt, or they don't care that they are invading another person's space.

Is it just me? Or, am I too sensitive to the needs of others? Any women who doesn't want my attention are spared my desires no matter how strong they may be. I would expect the same treatment from any woman whom I did not want. So, again, what is it with men chasing after lesbian women?

Amun-Ra :confused:

I'm in agreement with you RA, If she is not interested in me that's that. There are many reasons why men chase after lesbians. Number 1. They are challenged by the fact that there are some women out there who are just not interested in men. It's different than a woman saying you're not my type or I have a man already, but she is in fact saying that there is nothing a man can offer her that will satisfy her. This is a blow to the male ego, therefore he takes it upon himself to see if he can persuade her to think otherwise. I've heard many brothers say in regards to lesbians, that they just haven't met the right man or a real man yet. Brothers need to get up off the ego trip and push on. The second reason is that some men get turned on by the idea of two women in a sexual relationship with each other, and somehow hopes to join in with them. There are a lot of brothers out there who fantasize about being with two or three women at the same time. All of this is due as I said earlier to the ego, but if a man was really secure in himself amd with his ability to find a meaningful relationship, he wouldn't chase after shadows.

You said a mouthful there. When I think about it, I see that would be the ultimate in conquering--if there is such a thing. To make a woman who is a lesbian convert! I agree with you--that's ego talking. Personally, I wouldn't want my chops busted, but some folks don't get the message and will persist. I was asked to write this to see what kind of answers I got.

I pretty much agree with Bishop on this issue.
Hey Amun Ra :wave:
:peace:
Much Luv
Nita

Bishop has said it all....Like you Amun, if I know a woman is not interested in me, no matter the reason, then its time to move on....Why waste energy, when you can redeem the time? How many brothers have missed a good thing chasing after something that's not his to possess?

Enjoying you topics Master Teacher....

Mr. Columnist...

I must echo the Bishop.
I knew a guy who was friends with a lesbian. Somehow over the course of their friendship, he was allowed to be the "male instrument" between this woman and her lover.

He explained that is was the thrill of having two women and another check in his "I've done this sexually" book. So, I agree with the word "ego" being used, because this man's ego was definitely elevated! Out of all his sexual experiences, this is the one he STILL talks about (some 5 years later).

And...no, women do not pursue gay men... :) As much as I love black men, I would not pursue a gay man in order to show him what he is missing (as some males try to show lesbians what they are missing). Sexual orientation is a preference....be it for a month or years.

Keep writing thought provoking articles...

It seems like that to me--I guess some men are gluttons for punishment

Don aka Ra

Now that you have mentioned life choices--thgat brings another subject too the fore and that is--Is homosexuality a life style (choice) or is it something in which the individual has no choice? Personally, I am inclined to believe that there is no choice in the matter. I think no one chooses a lifestyle that in the United States and many other countries, invites personal abuse and humiliation from people who have taken the time to evaluate the question. The studies I have read indicate that homosexuality is no more a choice than the color of ones eyes. Now, obviously, I hang around with some skankty men because almost everyone that I know, with the exception of the more enlightened, think it is their duty to do something about this thing "lesbiansim" and if they can't then it is their duty to spout verbal abuse to show that they aren't afraid of homosexuals.

But now you have opened another--is homosexuality a choice?

Don aka Amun-Ra

This is great input! I think it is one we should discuss. Thanks for commenting on it. As soon as I can gather some coherent thoughts I will post a column on homosexuality.

Ra

...but I happen to see this situation alot. Men chasing lesbian women. Maybe it's the hope that they can JOIN into a lesbian relationship(the thinking in that is just backwards but some do think that way) I mean, am I the only one that notices that girl on girl action is like a big thing nowadays? Its in videos, movies, tv shows...now I ain't saying nothing against gays...gota lotta gay friends...but even they agaree with me. It's like an exploited lifestyle. Almost like it's hip to be square or whatever. Some fantasize about being with more than one woman...or to watch two women interact---but uh...apparently, it's a no man show. If they wanted men, they wouldn't be lesbians now would they? I think it also has something to do with the Superstud ego a lot of men have...thinking they can be the "one" that makes her realize that this was what she really wanted all along. Don't front like they ain't out there. lol

And yes...I have known women that pursued gay men. Well maybe not full court press...but they were on the hunt. I had a girlfriend that fell in love with her gay guy friend and actually just dedicated her time and lifework to him. She doesn't even pursue relationships anymore. Granted...this is a drastic situation and obviously there are undertoning reasons to her actions, but it does happen. She said it was because he made her feel safe and she could be herself...and most of all...she loved him. And that was all that was important to her. Twisted.

I think poeple fall into situations and relationships like that because of warped or twisted veiws. Maybe it's a fear of commitment or intimacy or just being a never tiring thrill seeker...but in the end it's not normal. It's not healthy to pursue and put energy into something that is doomed from the start. Why even put yourself out there? Why put your emotions out on the line to be stomped and disreguarded? I think the issue has to go much deeper than just being about sex...yes...musch deeper.

Introspection is greatly needed.

Than again...I hang with a lot of messed up folks so what I see may not be the truth! lol

I guess we do have some folks that just won't get the obvious. They trip and fall over what is clearly in front of them and wonder why? Everyone seems to be in agreement of this one.

Ra

ALL I CAN DO IS SHAKE MY HEAD!
ITS SAD AND SICK.....THATS THE BOTTOM LINE.

a beautiful woman just calls our attention, especially a beautiful woman who isn't available. Is that it?

Ra

I saw this title the other day and didn't have time to comment, my own technical difficulties.

You asked if homosexuality is a choice. I believe the answer is yes and no.

I think some people do it and it was a choice, to do something and exciting and liked it. But then maybe they had those tendencies to begin with.

I also believe that people do not choose, are born homosexuals. We all saw it when we were growing up. comedians always jokes about the boy who could double-dutch jumprope or the girl who could kick any boys' *** or was really good at sports.

Since male and female hormones are present in both men and women. I think that this could play a part.

Also Ra, do you think that homosexuality might be a natural birth control?

I never thought about it that way. Boy, you could take this one back centuries and get into such things as over population, female crisis, cultural differences (the Greeks) and even religious ceremony. I will look to see if any one discusses it from that standpoint.

By the way I agree. Personally, I think for a true homosexual--they had little choice in the matter. They were there when I was just a kid, but I also agree that some people do it just because or because they are confused.

Ra

I think there are people who do it for the shock value or the sheer sexual attention of it.

I'm gonna have you doing a lot of research. ;)

Wow, what a strange question and even stranger the answers, or maybe it is just me that is strange.

Men pursue lesbians because they find them attractive and the idea of two woman a sexual turn-on (too much porn), because they would not find it do much a turn on if the women looked like men it does not seem so appealing.

Is it a matter of ego, yes and so what of it? Should we never pursue the desire of our ego? If so, then why bother to have one? And, with my ego as a guide, I have pursued women past the initial and perhaps even the third or fourth "no."

Geez, talking a woman into having sex with me was part of the fun of talking to a woman at all. I like when guys are so high and holy that they would not do anything of the sort. It was simply more for me. Not that I am now or ever was a player, I just liked to get laid and sometimes that was all it was about

I didn't think you'd get here that fast. Well welcome. I did know that when you came, you would "stir the pot" some.

Wisdomseed meet Amun, Amun Ra meet Wisdomseed.

Now that you two have been "properly" introduced...

Poke holes in what theory?

I mentioned before I thought it could be hormonal, at least for those naturally inclined to be attracted to the opposite. Just as there are other living beings who have both reproductive systems (the earthworm and plants, there are animals who also display same sex relationships.

Kemetstry, how do you feel about homosexuality. I'm getting the vibe that you don't think it natural. You are coming it to homosuicidal individuals. I think this is all so complicated and maybe not even for us to understand, just accept of part of the plan.

In the realm of possibility is the y chromsome thay is not wuite "y" and the x chromosome that is more y than it should be. Why not? As a matter of choice who would consciously choose to live the ****** up life of a gay man or woman. And I am not talking lipstick lesbians, but those ones that wear plaid shirts, drive trucks and carry their wallet in their back pockets. They did not ask to be gay, and I doubt if they wanted to.

After watching my uncle grow up gay, but he didn't until he was at the tail end of his teens. The strange thing is, it never even occurred to him that he was gay. He like to wear women's clothes, he spent hours styling his hair, and he had a big crush on Chad Everett. He would rather watch the stories than go outside and play, he was feminine as any woman. Yet, he never even thought that he was gay, he just was not atracted to women. Of course, he was only one person. Taking into consideration that all during his schoolyears, his two best friends also grew up to be gay, and they all came to that realization about the smae time. But they were just like him. If I had not got to watch this under such pristine lab conditions, I would not have any knowledge concerning this. But having seen it, I know differently.

Of course their are people who are "socialized" homosexuals, but I thought we were talking about why men wanna be with women that don't wanna be with men! But I am telling you that is only the lipstick ones, them butch boys (girls) men don't want nothing to do with them!

I can see no reason any rational person would pick a life that invites trouble and that is why I am inclined to believe one is born that way. I know that science is just now starting to make connections, but my eyes have not deceived me. As a five year old kid, we knew who they were. They were like the rest of us. That is not to say that many did not fit in with the gang, it is just saying that whatever it is, IT is recognizable at some point.

On the other hand, I agree also that some people have no idea of theri sexual identity and try anything and everything trying to find out who they are. And, then there are the thrill seekers. I can't count these because they are those who will do anything just for the thrill and the more taboo it is, the more they are likely to do it.

Actually science does not bear you out. In looking for a "gay" gene, scientist may well be looking for the wrong thing all together. If the genes that determine the sex of the person is in someway altered, then being born gay would be simpley that. Does this happen? Yes it does, when one considers hermorphodytes (sp), people born with both sets of sexual organs, we are assured that genetic "malformations" or "mutations" that there is some genetic misinformation available as far as the sex goes.

Even as rare as that occurence is, it is telling. It is rare in the degree of its difference, but the difference is not so rare at all. Consider, a person born with two separate sex organs goes with which set as a person? Now since we know that Hermos are simple a degree of genetic change, what would happen to that same change to a lesser degree, a person born with one sex organ, but attracted to the same one.

We are not aware of the total amount of information passed in genetic material, nor are we aware of what happnes should those genes mutate in any way. We do not know why people have the personality that they have, as a matter of genes and not environment.

People may well be born with desires that we find disgusting and deplorable, but real none the less. There are places where we have to draw the line as a society. I say we draw it at consenting adults. If consenting adults wish to marry each other, they should have the full and legal right to do so.

Kemetstry,

How are gay people ramming their choice of mates down others throats? They are not advocating that you become gay, but they they should be able to live in the way that you do.

And let's not compare this to murderers or child molesters or even those deviants who tattoos themselves. (I'm being sarcastic). How is a gay person endangering your life? Or a tattooed or pierced person for that matter?

Science is in a flux on this one. There is evidence that shows that "homosexuality" actually runs in families. There is other evidence that says it does not. What is all amounts to is that it is all under investigation. Still, I will never believe that it is a choice, simply because of the negativity that is associated with anyone who would "make" such a choice. I can't believe that anyone would knowingly make a decision that they knew would make their life miserable.

As far as child molesters and others like them are concerned there is also investigation going on in that area. So far, nothing has been determined and that is another matter entirely. It is comparing apples, oranges and watermelons. They are all fruits and that is it and the pun is intended. We are falling into false analogies here and confusing correlation and causation.

Ra

Kemetstry, you can study as you like, you are apparently biased shows in your research.

And gays do not recruit, you do put them on the level of crminals. and yes there are teens, as pointed out by some statements of previous, children do know which sex they are attracted to at an early age.

But i can see that neither is going to convince the other to think differently, so I propose we agreed to disagreed on this one.

You are not the only scientist here and further, you have not exhausted the subject. I must agree that you have fit your result to match your theory which is a violation of the scientific method. Yes, there is disagreement, but it has NOT been definitively disproved as you state. Scientists are continually looking and unless you have read every study, evaluated every study, tested every study and produced a study of your own, then you can only do as the rest whether they are scientists or not and venture an opinion, and a "scientific" opinion as you put it is an argumentative flaw. It is the argument "from authority" which gives no proof what so ever. It is the same as saying "because I said so." As a scientist you should know this. So, I must chuckle also because it has resolved nothing. This is one area where we will have agree to disagree until all the evidence is in and has been evaluated and only the evidence speaks. I am not locked to this opinion, but as real investigation of this issue is relatively new, it is too soon probably to throw conclusion one way or another. I know this and admit it.

Keep plugging,

Ra

Kemetstry, what is your field of expertise, as a scientist?

my field of study

observing people...

i too understand some protocols...:)

That does not mean I trust science implictly or that scinece is beyond errors or is capable of satifactorily explaining everything at this point in time.

dude, this is not a matter of 2+2=4 it is more like
2X + 7Y = 3G and you need to solve for x, y & g. While my knowledge of biochemistry is limited, I do know how to do the math.
for while science has not proven a genetic cause for some homosexuality, it has not been able to positively conclude that there is no or can be no argument against a genetic predisposition. Now you should know as a chemist that two things happening in succession are not always relate, but that does not rule out that one is a factor of the other.

it is natural, it happens. and you said my logic was flawed? get a grip, I think you are spending way to much time in the lab and not enough n the real world.

If homosexuality were not natural it would not occur. It happens and it happens naturally.


So stop tripping already. What are you some kind or right-wing conservative homophobe?

Kemetstry, outside of the lab, do you know any homosexuals, have you talk to them, asked about their feelings, why they are attracted to the same sex, when they noticed these feelings, etc.

Do that kind of study and then come back to me?

Also, do some research and tell me if other animals exhibit same sex interaction.

{{{{{ohhhhhhh Wisdom, did he ask if you liked arguing? LOLVLEL!!! :D}}}}}

I am just a contrary mothafucka, but that is another matter. What I said in the religion area has more to do with child molestation. Which does in its own way contribute.

But Mr. Science, why would someone choose to be gay? ANd I want the scientific answer, not some homophobe bull****. How is this choice made? And why is there a choice at all? Since there is a choise, is one more noble than the other? How does someone approach this choice? And what brings one to this choice?

I have had morehtan one opportunity to engage in homosexual behavior, but I chose not to? Why would someone choose to? How does this choice come about? Can you choose as well not to be gay? Why would someone choose to be gay? Why would they choose to stay that way?

Well Mr. Science, tell us about homosexuality!!! What would you choose?

Kemetstry, this same science you are bowing down to, is the same science that tries to make us less human. they are still looking for ways to make us and others feel that we are ignorant, incapable of learning, valuable contributors to this universe. and since you name indicates that you have some connection to Africa, don't african also pierce and tattoo their bodies, just as other cultures do.

That's some interesting medicine you practicing...and yes, you are homophobic.

if you don't mind me asking a personal question: what is your age and where do you live?

35/MN

First off I'd just like to say from what I've seen of lesbians the real ones aren't the type exemplified in the media. I've known a few Lesbian couples and they aren't supermodels or nymphomaniacs. The media portrays them this way alot from what I've seen. I'd also have to say that I've seen some women pretend to be lesbians [and these are the women that are very good looking] just to get men to chase them! It's all very controversial and I don't think you can lump all the situations and circumstances together to get an end sum. In every case there are diferent factors. Similar cases are still not identical.

Science has very simple rules and regulations about how you define and study things. Junk science doesn't use these principals. It's abused in the media to take unrelated events and lump them together to create the image they want to promote.

To clarify what was said earlier, I agree with the statement by Amun Ra, that I don't understand why people would make such a choice to be gay. But I also identify with kemistry in the fact that I also don't understand why people get extreme body piercings. I'm not sure what I believe about gays in general or lesbians in general. For each situation there is a diferent opinion. When I deal with people in my life I just try to love them and not judge them for their mistakes.
The fact is everybody has choices they have made they are not proud of. The fact is we have all suffered the consequences for our choices or will. That is a fact no matter which way you turn.

We are back where we started. Is it a choice? Some say it is and some say it isn't. Probably the better point is does it make a difference and if it does, why does it? I can argue that men like beautiful women no matter what their preference, at least until they find out they have another preference, but most attraction is physical at first. So, a mistake could be made, but after that--it would seem to be pure ego.

As to the choice or chance, what difference does it make? Any? None? Who knows?

Amun-Ra

that in normal circumstances gays cannot reproduce without the help of a third party, but now that is a whole other can of worms we are opening because females can reproduce just as males can and there are ways to get it done. Now, we are into another realm that mixes ethics, morality, science and sociology.

Ra

I gotta put my two cents in here Ra, I think it might contribute. Along with the ego thing I think we're also dealing with a taboo issue. we want what we sometimes can't have. Black men have desired white women for the one simple reason that they were
supposedly off-limits(white only).Mom can spend all day preparing dishes in the kitchen and that one she tells us not to eat is the one that we will want to eat. It goes back to the beginning.
Eve could have had anything she wanted from the tree of life
but she choose the one thing that was forbidden. The men that
chase lesbians are reaching for the forbidden fruit. Why tax yourself. Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell expressed it best.
"AINT NOTHING LIKE THE REAL THING'

Ra..

your initial question was why are straight men attracted to lesbians...and I don't think there is any one definite answer to this, unless you are that straight man...could it be that the man thinks he is too good to resist and therefore proves that the lesbian just needed to be shown what a real man could do for her....it is that in some kind of way a man could get off on having sex with a lesbian...is it that he is not really straight in the first place and likes to experiment....there are so many answers...

and as to gay men needing help to reproduce, yes they do, in the form of an egg and a womb, provided by a woman...but the gay woman also needs the man..maybe not directly, but she does need his sperm to reproduce...so therefore neither gay men or women can reproduce without the help of the other...as you have said...but they can reproduce although not in the usual way...

and is homosexuality a choice...well I am no scientist like Kem, and I only know a few gay people, and I am not homophobic..I believe if thats their choice then so be it....but I do believe that homosexuality is a choice....

if it is not a choice and it stems from their genetic make-up as so many claim, backing this with the "fact" that gay men and women are born with more x than y chromosomes or vice versa and therefore predisposed to be gay.....

can someone please tell me why....there are people who are bi-sexual....doesn't that just blow that old x and y theory clean out of the water...because if it's not a choice and they are predisposed to be gay...then they are gay, men with men...or lesbian, women with women....there would be no going back and forth....

if they are going to explain their lifestyle with science, then they should have the scientific proof to back up their explanation....

the x and y theory just doesn't cut it......

K

. . . homosexuality is not a life style that does not have the feeling of rationality behind it, no matter that some may actively choose that life style, society clearly rejects it and has rejected it for centuries and I see no rational reason for anyone to choose a life style as such that might result in death at the hands of others when another choice would be just as easy to make. I don't think people choose to be born with genius, athletic talent or intelligence, but clearly they are and others are not.

There are many who are confused about there sexuality and may actually make a choice to be gay, bisexual or even heterosexual, but I think those choices are made for us. Every year thousand of babies don't have their sex dtermined until after they are born because the doctors aren't sure. It is nature.

I would have prefered to be tall and handsome, unfortunately there are few tall people in my family and there is no one who is handsome. I had nothing to do with that, although I could have recieved some of those kickback genes and gotten tall but I would never be handsome.

People have tried to blame homosexuality on overbearing mothers, mean fathers, liberal environments, and improper upbringing, but the fact remains that homosexuals have been here since the beginning of time and have been in all walks of life including the clergy, the presidency, the army, business, sports and entertainment.

I think the only choice in the matter is when a person finally gives up and admits they aren't heterosexual. That's what the world demands they be and I think most probably try to be just that but end up miserable, despondent and plain unhappy until they admit who they are.

As I said the evidence on this is inconclusive, but to me a conscious choice of homosexuality would be akin to wishing to be a slave. As much as we enoble the slave and understand their plight, most people would not wish such a thing on their worst enemy much less make it a choice and clearly it wasn't a choice, it was an enforcement. Although homosexuality is a far cry from slavery, I don't see any advantage to announcing to the world that you are gay, not this world, unless it is to be who you are and relieve the burden of trying to be someone else.

As far as men and their choices, I don't know what the deal is behind it. Personally, I like prettry women--all pretty women. I don't care if they are gay, fay or whatever. I like pretty women. However, I don't have much interest in women who don't have an interest in me and therefore, lesbian women would not be for me, even though I know some pretty ones who I sure wouldn't turn down if they needed a favor, but that is just male testosterone talking. I give them a wide berth and leave them alone despite whatever carnal thoughts I might have because I wouldn't want anyone to think that I force myself upon them.

This is an interesting one isn't it. I vacilate back and forth over the theories. Right now I am convinced the homosexuality is not a choice--except for those few who are just plain confused.

Ra

:toast:

I hate to put we men into the same boat because I know that not all of us are doggish, but I admit to it. I'd make to love to every woman in the world if I had time and they had the inclination, and I admit that sleeping with a lesbian woman seems to have a taste of the forbidden about it that makes it that much more attractive.

However, that's my carnal self talking and I know that I wouldn't even pursue it. I have a several lesbian friends who just happen to be very attractive, but I have never said a word in that direction toward anyt of them. Part of it is out of respect and the other part is out of fear of losing a friend. It has crossed my mind more than once, but I never want to go any place that I am not invited and in this case I know that I am not invited and so I put it behind me and keep my freinds.

Besides, why would any man want to give himself such grief in being turned down, ridiculed and ignored? My skin ain't that thick. I only go where I am wanted.

Ra

:toast:

no topic is too far away to discuss or to holy to write about--especially the ones that we aren't supposed to write about--I am in the business of eating sacred cows, flying where eagles dare and thumbing my nose at convention--I don't think there is a topic that I wouldn't write about from some perspective--gays are people and they are interesting and they live right here in the United States and the world and they are not going away--so why not ask why? However, I don't make fun of others opinions and respect their right to them and in most cases manage to keep my mouth shut about them--most cases.

Ra

;)

In my opinion. Homosexuality is a choice. We decide who to have sex with. We do not choose who to be attracted to. Because you're attracted to someone of the same sex doesn't mean you have to sleep with them.
The attraction may be physiological but the action itself is not.
Simply put. We all "choose" and "decide" who to take our clothes off for.

There are people who are definitely mixed up--However, I don't think anyone consciously picks a life style that will bring them grief and ostracizing--they are there and they have been there since time began--they will be there when it ends--Amun-Ra

:cool:

religion is such a trip. you can find scriptures to favor your opinion and others can find another one to disprove it.

i agree with Amun Ra, some choose homosexuality. however, i also believe they may just be choosing to live in the way they feel. i know quite a few homosexuals as well - lesbians and gays alike.

many of them have tried being "normal". you have men who have married, had children and then find years later they have can't live the lie anymore. i think society has placed that burden on them. many fight the feelings and as a result their lives become dysfunctional.

since it's been mentioned, the same sex cannot reproduce, perhaps homosexuality is a natural birth control.

though i 'm not sure about the x and y chromosone i will state that we all produce male and female horomones. some of us produce more of the other sex hormones than normal. the world is always evolving. who knows, years for now our bodies may have to adapt that two of the same sex can reproduce.

also, there are other species of life that demonstrate homosexual tendencies. there are plants and animals that have both male and female properties. you can call it adaption and necessity.

i think some men are attracted to lesbians because they have a fantasy of having a threesome or watching two women having sex.

Thandiwe

just a thought, but when we talk about "normal" relationships as in male/female, and people who have been married and then decide they really are gay and want to have same sex relationships, well I have to believe that this is purely a lifestyle of choice...

if you are homosexual or lesbian, and it is genetic, not choice, wouldn't this mean you are only attracted to same sex and the idea of having sex with the opposite sex would be a complete turn-off, a non-event....yet so many marry and then decide years later that they are actually gay....often with the women having children.....I can understand how you say they are "fighting the feelings" but I cannot understand their choice to live a lie, simply to hide their homosexuality or to not come to terms with it....

for me this subject has too many variations to believe that being homosexual is a direct result of genetics.....and I'm not against anyone being homosexual, if thats their choice then they are entitled to live the way they choose, and should not have to atone to society for their choice....but it makes me wonder, how it cannot be a lifestyle choice, when you have bi-sexual relationships, you have male rape ( of which a high percentage is committed by heterosexual males) and you have people who are "straight" and then decide to live life as a homosexual....

I think like in so many things in life you have the genuine article, then you have all the knock-off lookalikes...

K

Kitana, i believe many go into marriages by trying to play society's game. when they see they are playing a losing game with themselves, then they no longer continuing the charade of being "normal".

It would seem that no one would ever make such a choice considering the repercussions--on the other hand, when sexuality is involved there is no accounting for what people will do under the influence of hormones even in so-called "natural" relationships--for some people it is the idea of doing what is taboo--on the other hand, there are those who are always the same--have they been tempted? I'm sure. Have heterosexuals been tempted, I sure they have but how many would admit it? However, I think there is a difference between experimentation or life styles and true orientation--I think we all are tempted by things that out of the "norm" just because they are out of the norm, but I have a hard time believing anyone chooses to be abused. Of course, then we have menin prison--are they homosexuals, bisexuals or prisoners of nature? Is it about power or about sex? Is it a freeing of homosexual tendencies or a power trip? I like women--lots of women--homosexual women are included, although I doubt seriously whether they would include me, but that doesn't stop me from like females--so here we are back at square one--is it real or is it Memorex?

Ra

;)

these questions are reaching deeper--bravo!--maybe we can keep going and get to some real meaning or understanding--because that's where it all starts--understanding!

Ra

:)

i'm saying that people, particularly those who are homosexual and are led to believe, by society's rules, that they are less than normal. they try to become "normal" by denying their homosexuality by marrying.

do i believe marriage is abnormal. no, but i don't believe it is necessary to have a fulfilling, satisfying, productive life.

I completely understood your comment about gay people pretending to live "normal" lives ( I have a relative who did just this) but the point I was trying to put across was, if they are homosexual, how can they have any kind of sexual relationship with the opposite sex...to me that is the same as a straight male/female deciding to have sex with someone of same gender just to keep up some charade..how can they be truly homosexual if they can have sexual relationships with same and opposite sex partners.....to me this seems almost as if they are confused by what their sexual persuasion truly is......and by definition means they are bi-sexual....

I understand the social repurcussions of admitting your gay and practicing a gay lifestyle, and thereofre the reasons why someone would hide their homosexuality, but I don't understand that someone can live, in a lot of cases a happily married life, then suddenly admit that they are really gay..

K

this topic has had me running to do some research ....and I have to say that nowhere, in anything I have been able to read, does it state or offer positive proof that homosexuality is genetic...

it offers plenty of theories as to why a person may be homosexual but not proof that it is something of which a person has no control over ...

Ra...as to your earlier comment about having a hard time believing anyone chooses to be abused (choosing a homosexual lifestyle), what about wives who stay with abusive husbands/partners, or people who practice sadomasochism....these people willingly choose to be abused on a regular basis...

a while back I read an article on male rape, heterosexual males raping other males whether they are heterosexual or gay, and in something like over 70% of the cases, it was a power trip and had nothing to the act of sex itself....maybe it's the same for men in prison...it may be simply a power trip, the strong controlling the weak, and then establishing their place at the top of the animal chain....

I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said that we are temtped by things out of the norm, and doing what is taboo....

I think there are many homosexual people who are strictly homosexual and lead happy, fulfilling lives with a partner of their choice, but on the other hand I think a lot of people are just stepping outside the realm of what society deems "normal" behaviour, and their reasons for doing so could be many and varied....

K

Unfortunately scripture does has more than one meaning--to fundamentalists it has only one meaning--the problem comes when fundamentalists of different views come together--then the words "true believers" and "infidels" start being tossed around--otherwise, why all the different Christian denominations when they all claim the same leader, book and faith? Why? Because scripture is open to interpretation and the variety of interpretations led to Calvinism, Puritanism, and a bunch of other "isms" all claiming the "true faith." So, scripture is very much open to interpretation otherwise there would be only the Catholic Church, which is the original Christian Church until Martin Luther came along and brought the protest movement--Protestantism. Yes, scripture is twisted but it seems it is only twisted by others--not by the true believers.

Ra

;)

nothing personal Rosetta, but i feel the quickest way to quiet a conversation, limit viewpoints, and close the mind is to bring religion into the conversation. i don't subscribe to the bible. i see it as hearsay, a way to control people, to put us in one tiny box. i also believe religion does more to separate us than to bring us together.

i, however, do have spiritual beliefs. i live by what i see, feel, and experience, but also know right from wrong. i have the universe as a "god". that i don't need a bible to tell me.

Rosetta, do you know, personally, any homosexuals? i happened to know quite a few. i can tell you, there isn't much difference between us and them. only difference being what goes on in the bedroom.

Kitana, i would venture to say the this is a new investigation, you'll find little evidence to support homosexuality as being "normal" or genetically resulted. i'll also say that because of the majority belief, any evidence supporting it would also be disputed in other ways.

I have to agree to disagree with you on this point...I do not believe myself to be confused at all....I just do not share your belief and faith in the lord above and all that is written in the bible and therefore can not explain this topic with quotes from the bible and scripture....

Man has taught man that he is the highest animal on the food chain, that he is the only one to continuosly walk upright on two feet, that he is the most intelligent, and therefore the most superior animal...and in thinking that he is the most superior he therfore thinks he is above all else and can do as he pleases without regard for authority or consequence...

I do not question the "perversion" of homosexuality, that is not for me to decide or to pass judgement on....I believe in "to each his own" as long as the choice they make only involves the people/person making the choice...it is not up to me to decide whether homosexuality is unholy, perverted, un-natural or otherwise....I, like you, have my own opinion on the subject, and for you to say I am confused tells me that you think that your explanation is the only possible explanation there is...I do not afford myself that luxury....for all I know homosexuality could be due to a genetic trait, and science just hasn't found the proof yet...or it could be just a lifestyle choice that people do have control over....

I do know that I respect your belief in your faith, and if your explanation above is your opinion, then I believe you are entitled to it...

K

and though i said, nothing personal i see your went that route anyway.


keep your crutch, your bible, for yourself. actually you should take your head out of the bible and take a look around. if you don't know, the bible and christianity was used to control black folx as slaves. i see you still have your mind held captive and controlled. how many version are there anyway?

no need to copy scriptures because i won't and don't read them. if you wish to continue discussing this issue, we can do so with your own words.

it is not your job to spread the word, to conform me. your efforts will be in vain. in fact, your sentiments are the same that terroristic extreme muslims subscribed to. it is that same mentality that has them bombings our landmarks, strapping bombs to their bodies and all in the name of their religion.

keep the sermon and your holy ghost dancing for your sunday services.

so again i ask, do you know any homosexuals, personally?

it's always those christians who need to do the most work on themselves. yall are some of the most judgmental people around. you should start within yourself, start seeing your error in your ways before trying to clean someone else's house. cn you spell hypocritical. now go find the scripture that says, thou shall not judge. but then again, you may think of yourself as "god".

“The bane of hypocrisy is not its visibility to others, it is its invisibility to the practitioner.”--Michael Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things


“Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. -- Matthew 7:5

It always seems that others can see your problems clearly, doesn't it? Isn't that strange!

Ra--stirring the pot


;)

you getting this for your book?! :lol:

(((((((here cometh the fire and brimstone)))))))

rosetta said:

Unfortunately I know too many homosexual of all races and colors. .... and from my personal experience I can honestly say that there is a GREAT deal of difference between heterosexuals who love the Lord God and homosexuals who disregard the righteous law seeking after their own lusts because of demonic possessions. Most homosexual males don't even know how to have a simple conversation with a woman -- they no longer have the power over their own minds to bring the conversation out of the seat of their pants... and the same with lesbians. Much of the violent attacks committed against black women are done by homosexual black males who have completely lost touch with their natural God-given feelings towards women ... these are the rappers who don't mind calling their own mothers, sisters and relatives 'hos and ******* and saying all manner of profanity just for a nothing a lot of the times. "

thandi says:

from your personal experience, you probably have not talked to many homosexuals. i happen to know quite a few gays and the gift of gab seems to be an attribute in many. perhaps it is you who they don't feel comfortable talking with. especially with your fundamentalist viewpoints, why would they want to talk with someone who thinks of them as a demons. perhaps it is the venom you so quickly spout that they are careful of.

and you say they have lost their mind control. :lol: that's a good one. isn't it you who is relying upon the words of others, like i said before, heresay, to "guide" you. sounds like you are been guided to hate, unacceptance, lack of understanding and do a good job of accepting it all quite blindly.

and woman being raped most by homosexual males. where are you getting your information? are you speaking out of your own experience? or are you gonna supply another bible scripture to "validate" your viewpoints? :rolleyes:

now if you want to talk about rappers and such - that's a whole different conversation. however, i have noticed quite a similarity in their behaviors and yours. check the mirror, rosetta. what are the names you call people who don't have the same beliefs as you, people with my "mentality"? :lol:

for some reason, i keep expecting a collection plate to come out of my computer. :lol:

just so you know, most of your stuff you post, i don't even read. i saw your religious, distorted view on other threads and wasn't interesting in reading them then. perhaps you will see what a waste of time it is. if you haven't noticed, others aren't particular in agreement with your viewpoints either. :bored: save if for your bible study groups.

again, when you can think for yourself and stop thumping your bible, maybe we can have a discussion.

so with this conversation with you, i'm gonna turn the other cheek and let you continue to WORSHIP YOURSELF.

rosetta :rolleyes:, regarding your last post. i guess your own words don't pertain to you.

Adding a little fuel to the fire. This sounds like the worst of Afrocentrism. To dismiss an idea simply because it originated elsewhere is faulty and dishonest thinking. Here is a piece from a friend, that speaks to ideas that come "Europe."

From Fraces Parker-- . . . it is true that the West has its roots firmly planted in the intellectual traditions of Europe, to simply dismiss it, or any idea, based solely on its cultural antecedents, is incredibly erroneous. This fallacious argument is what I term the 'Appeal to Culture'.

This argument is generally masked in more traditional fallacies, such as Argumentum Ad Hominem or the 'No True Scotsman'. Usually, the 'Appeal to Culture' rears its ugly head in political debates (pro or anti-affirmative action), or socio-cultural debates (abortion, homosexual rights, feminism). The argument simply assumes that any position that is favored by the majority (White media), or has its roots in White grass-roots movements, is automatically incorrect, and is ultimately hostile or antithetical to the concerns of the African-American community.

. . . any African-American who expresses views that deviate from what is considered traditional African-American thought, are often faced with this fallacy.

If this argument is taken to its logical conclusion, however, one would have to dismiss practically every aspect of what is considered Western civilization, everything from architecture and literature, to economics and political systems. In fact, African-Americans would pretty much have to toss out much of the humanities and the sciences.

Interestingly enough, the 'Appeal to Culture' could also be used to attack Christianity as an European construct, since it was forged in the political and cultural turmoil of the Greco-Roman world. After all, this is the argument leveled by many Black Muslims. One could also point out the fact that much of the brutality and bloodshed endured in Europe (the Crusades, the Inquisition) was instigated by the Church.

But one need not look at history for the sins of Christianity. The pages of the bible itself clearly shows the horror. Imagine the events of the New Testament taking place instead, in the Jim Crow-era Deep South. Imagine, if you will, a young, 30-something Black man who speaks out against the injustices being suffered by his people.

He is arrested by the authorities, questioned, beaten, and nailed to a piece of wood and left to hang until dead. I wonder if this could in fact the real cause of why some within the community have resisted portraying Jesus as a Black man in their churches. Would portraying the bloodied, beaten body of a Black man suffering on the cross finally reveal to Christians how truly vicious Christianity really is?

The cognitive dissonance alone would probably force many to make unwelcome parallels between the plight of Jesus and the long, painful history of segregation.

This portrayal will hopefully get the African-American Christian to think. At least, he'll know not to dismiss an idea because it 'comes out of Europe'.

Ra--an excerpt from Frances Parker's "African-American Atheism and the Appeal to Culture"

:heart:

you don't get it, and probably never will. no matter who you are referring to, you still have a problem with thinking it is your duty to judge others.

:boring: :boring: :boring:

now i know why the homosexuals won't talk to you. if they won't say anything to you, perhaps you'll stop with all the judging. :rolleyes:

thandi walks out the room and leaves rosetta to her :teach:
:lol:

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

gotdammit! shut up already!!!! I mean, really!!!!

your post always detract from the original post. there is a whole section for religion and spirituality. if i wanted to engage i could go there.

also, if you are trying to spread the word of the lord, you need to work on your approach.

now go spread the word with someone who really is interested, cuz as you haven't noticed, I'm not interesting in your rhetoric.

damnnn, xhit, f*&@! give it a rest!!!!!

Last weekend , I attend a Me'shell Ndegeocello concert. My first thought after standing in line for a minute was I'm going to a black lesbian conference. The majority of the guests were lesbian couples. Should I be there? I love Me'shell's music but maybe I shouldn't be here.

As the DJ raved up the crowd, I found myself in the middle of an all girl party. Most were very attractive, well groomed ladies who happen to come in pairs. In the middle of dancing, I felt occasional eyes on me which I usually take as admiration. At several points in the hour-long dance session, two different ladies "Backed that thang up" against me, I assume with the approval of their girlfriends.

Now their was no doubt, I was intrigued by the possibilities, but the whole time, I was fully aware this was more a turn on to me than for them (I think). They felt totally comfortable with me because I respected them and their sexual preference. It was freeing for me to socialize with my sistahs on a purely platonic level, knowing no one's trying to get into my pants.

I am a big fan--"maybe Judas was a better man" is one of my favorite lyrics--I am sure you are right in your observations--dancing andloving are two different things--when everyone is having a good time--differences tend not to be noticed--to focus on the differences makes a nusiance and lessens chances for understanding--the last time I checked--everyone here is just trying to live the best they can and wish no harmto others--however, there are those who are waiting for a better life in the hereafter--power to them also, but I prefer the here and now--but any who desire to make that trip to the great homecoming in the sky early--feel free! It is not my duty to stand in your way unless you want to take me with you--M'Shell--love her--she was on Jay Leno recently and kicked much bass and keyboard--a superb musician and a lady unafraid to speak her mind--bravo--Amun-Ra

:toast:

actually dancing with gays are quite the same as you Black Orpheus. you don't have to worry about some guy thinking he can take you home because you had a dance. also, some of these women may not have been lesbians. when going out to clubs and concerts, i am mostly in attendance with my female friends.

too many times, we judge people or give them titles. in actuality, there are still just people. they breathe, bleed, cry, laugh, love, and learn just as we all do. it's not until their sexuality is revealed that judgments are passed. we don't concentrate on our commonalities but find every little reason to distance ourselves. (disclaimer: this was not directed to anyone in particular, just a general statement.)

M'Shell N'Degeocello (sp), is the **** though! i only have her first album, mostly because she doesn't get any exposure here in minnesnowta. but i love that bass! sorry i missed her on jay leno, he has given quite a few "little knowns" and "unknowns" exposure on his show.

I have to change this after reading your last line--this piece had nothing to do with abnegating African contributions to the world--it has to do with belittling an idea because of its origin--it has nothing to do with Kemetic contributions--it has to do with intellectual dishonesty--it has to do with accepting contributions no matter what its origins might be--in addition, the reference to Jesus, was meant as an indictment of American society--basically it was saying that if Jesus himself appeared as a black man during the Jim Crow era, he probably would have been lynched by white Christians--it's not fun doing this if you have to explain the punch lines--Amun-Ra

:smash:

rosetta, did you catch the remake of the movie "carrie"? you remind me so much of the mother's character...

hey, isn't there supposed to be at least one rest day of the week. but you are worst than a everready bunny. you just keep going, going, ohhh that's right your already GONE!


Originally posted by rosetta


... and now the spirit of profanity ... how many more besides the spirit of sodomy residing with you???

SPEAKING OF SPIRITS, PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY.

Lastly, "damnnn, xhit, f*&@! give it a rest!!!!".... BACK AT YA!! The USA and the black community has more than enough like yourself bringing it completely down ... down ... down.
:teach:
say good-by Thandiwe....

rosetta, NOW READ THE ABOVE, NOTE YOU SAID, "back at ya." you are a joke. I did want to part and say my goodbye with this gift. (((handing rosetta a mirror))) see, you really aren't any closer to "god","the lord", "your savior", are you? :lol: :lol:

ohhhhhhh, the hypocrisy!!!! you know what i've noticed about religious fanaticals, they are usually quite intelligent. thing is the intelligence stifles their thinking. now here, take my hand....step into the light. come on, don't be afraid.

btw, you could never know what contributions, attributes i have. instead you keep looking for darkness and you get it. too bad i followed you into your cavern.

i was talking with some friends about you. they said you couldn't be that bad. I told them that you would turn a conversation about clipping toenails into religious lesson.

hmmmm, thinking about it, you think "the lord" clipped his toenails?

just for your information, you've been put on "mute". any other responses from you to me, would be a mute point. (so what's new?)

now as you requested, "good-by Thandiwe". ;) :D

Thandie. . . I'm through--I quit--the forces of the unenlightened have overcome me--I quit--Thandie--carry on--this reminds me of the old saying--you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, do the backstroke or even tread water--it's a waste of time--some minds are so constricted by dogmas as to allow no room for independence in thought or action--I quit--Thandie you carry on--I have to admit when the forces of narrowness have overcome my patience--does the phrase blood out of a turnip sound familiar--beating a dead horse sometimes seems fun, but after a while even I get tired of the exercise even though the horse doesn't seem to mind--carry on brave soldier--this pagan is retiring to the intellectual page where arguments are based on logic, reason and science, not worn cliches and a book that is contradictory, mean-spirited and has caused so much despair in the world over the centuries--carry on Thandie--I pass--this is an exercise in mental masturbation--although it feels pretty good, the target is too easy and the payoff is severely limited--Ra

:heart:

I think most of us are riding dead horses and there are no bricks left in the wall either...time to get a fresh horse and build a new wall....

K

Ra, this soldier left this war awhile ago, it wasn't worth the fight. ;)

Kitana, you bring some bricks and i'll help with the mortar. :)

Thisis one of those one where there is nothing but frustration--minds that are closed remain that way until they have the revelation--then they discover that we shouldn't take things too literally or we are in for disappointment--anyway--I am weary of the unworthy skirmish and would rather expend my energies in other areas--Ra

:cool:

i'm with ya!

. . . the narrow minds would soon expand, but when you take information covered with cobwebs and resurrect in the today's light--there will be know bending, because they are brittle and the brittle break and never recover

Ra

:cool:

Ra...
Tell me why, in most XXX videos, are there always two women getting it on...
Men buy these things and get off on it. I always assumed the fantasy would be for the man to be in the middle. And maybe this is why some would pursue lesbian woman... or for just the challenge...
Why do so many women have gay guy friends? Maybe so they can turn them... or because it's like talking to a woman with a guy perspective?
There is a lesbian woman in my unit at the office... one of the young guys would always tease about kissing her... that she would go back to men... on his last day at work... they kissed ... one long passionate kiss. She went home to her ol' lady. It must not have worked. :)

I don't understand it all--but I think straight men in general like women and the idea of two women turns them on, even two women they can't capture--its a fantasy--it doesn't work that way with two men--two men is digusting if you're straight--two women OKAY--two men--NOT OKAY--I am a man and I know that's the way I feel. Somehow two women turn me on and of course if I could be up there in the middle of them--that's where I'd be--two men? I'd rather stick a needle in my eye.

Ra

:cool:

thaks for being honest Ra!

most of the men i know wouldn't mind being in a threesome with two women.

Hey, we're guys! We fantasize about this sheeet constantly. How many, tall, short, black, white, Chinese, Indian, African, Brazilian, size 38D, size 34, size 32--are you starting to get the picture--A lot of our thinking is centered on our--well you know--I know mine is and I haven't changed in years--I'd do it now if not for previous commitments--I'd do it if I was 90--makes no difference and I don't want any old women--only 18 to 36--ain't that disgusting--MEN!--cain't hep it--I know other men are thinking it, but they would dare say it--yes, all the hot flesh before it begins to sag, droop, dimple and stretch. Of course, we don't give a **** what we look like, but we know how we want those women to look--all right--I say its only me--I don't know how other men feel about it--but I know what I fantasize about and it isn't some 47-year woman with stretch marks, sagging breasts and hail damaged legs--it's my fantasy, so I can have it the way I want it--Realty? Well, I know that none of these women are interested in me and I am lucky to have the one I have complete with stretch marks and all--but when I fantasize--I pain the picture the way I want it--Ra

:eek:

Ra...

I had to laugh at your previous post and what you had to say about your (and most probably nearly every other red blooded males) fantasy...I have heard it said by so many men, that their ultimate fantasy is to be in a threesome with two women...

and I have also heard so many times that two women together is okay, two men together is a definite turn-off, and that has been said by both males and females...two women together just seems to be accepted so much easier...

K

:laugh: @ Ra

well maybe women ain't talking. maybe some think about two men and themselves. thing is, when men fantasize about a threesome they picture themselves in the equation but also the women "doing" each other.

when women think about threesome, they think about them and the men, but NOT the men doing themselves.

i don't know too many women who would admit to wanting a threesome, either way.

GUL YOU AINT LYIN YOU AINT LYIN YOU AINT LYIN!!!

Dese *****s approach me every day, whether wit my gal or not.

In high school, a young man told me "Tomboy p***y is the best p***y."

I don't know, maybe it just makes them feel undefeatable.

Where is the logic in that--but that seems to hbe the way it is--I admit to be a dirty old man, young man, middled aged man--just dirty--Ra

:)