Hoteph My Dear Beloved Sisters And Brothers:

Beloved, now to many of you, this subject immediately provoke the thought of
religion and it is appropriate for you to do so, because that is the way
your mind has so been trained to believe.

The US IN THE SUBJECT MATTER IS REFERRING TO THE CARBON NATION, Africans we
love to refer to ourselves as being.

The Lord mention here has nothing to do with Jesus nor the Christ, the
leading figure in the western world religious drama, a drama that has been
dramatically effective in transforming an entire Carbon Nation away from the
magic of the Truth, as it dance with only that which is real, supported by
the facts of metaphysic.

It is Time for you my Black Sisters and Brothers to Look once again, using
the inner vision to see that which is True and Real and when you are able to
do so you will know, at this Time, on this Planet and as I speak, there are
strange things taking place in the Universe, strange only to the sense of
perception, wrapped in the folly of religious belief.

Yet the Universe is now speaking with such fervor to the Carbon Nation and
we hear not. Speaking letting us know that the world is in a state of
destructive mode, destructive not in just a physical way but more
importantly in a body Soulful way.

The fact that Mankind has chose belief over the use of profound thought, is
what cause the Universe to now be in a cleansing mode, prepared to let loose
the Lord of the Elements upon those who have disobeyed its presence.

Well now, let us take a look at what the Lord really represent, it is
neither Jesus nor Civil, it is the Law of the Universe and now I say unto
you that the Lord is now upon us once again,requiring that we return back to
become obedient and respectful to the Lord of the Universe, which is the
Universal Law.

Lord = Law, the most cherished Fraternal Code within the annals of Masonic
secrecy, something the Carbon Nation did know, before the conversion to the
ignorance of Religious teaching.

No! I am not a member of any earthly Masonic order,just a by-product of the
Ancient Nubionic Mystery System as the Greeks so referred to such Profound
Teaching and Knowledge that was emanating from the wisdom of our Ancient
Carbon African Ancestors.

Yet you wonder why it is that I do not compromise the fact that our
Salvation is not to be experienced here in america, the other part of the
Diaspora, Europe nor Asia, as it is called today, but will be realized only
upon the Holy Ground of our Ancient Carbon African Ancestors and that ground
I speak of is known now as Africa.

We Children of the gods of Sirius by way of that planet now called Mars, we
have lost our way by the fact we abandon our True identity and now, our
every belief our every action is to see how we can force that which is evil
to accept us into their fold, not so my dear beloved, because you see, the
very people you are trying to fit into are the very people who know who you
really are and to allow you to taste Freedom, Justice and Independence would
be as if evil has submitted to becoming Just, peaceful and Respectful to the
Lord of the Universe.

Let those of you who are in the know about our Blackself, bear witness to
that which is True.

As I often say to you and you choose not to hear, Reparation is more than
political, nor is it ruled by Civil Law, Reparation is Divine and Spiritual
and is govern by the Lord (LAW) of the Universe AND WILL BECOME A REALITY
ONLY WHEN IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS IT HAS BEEN SO PROPHESIZED and that is the
Lord of the Universe must be obeyed, therefore, just as you were at the
beginning oh Carbon Nation, so shall it be once again.

We move not in a straight line but as the Universe, in cycle. Such a cycle
in relation to Reparation is thus so,that is, if we are to obey the Lord of
the Universe, which happen to be, Reparation = Repatriation = AfroDescendant
State = The Reunification of the Carbon African Nation and if this is
preaching Hate then yes my dear beloved, I am Rooted in it !!!

It Is Time To Condemn The Lie And Elevate The Truth!!!

Complete Love To The Carbon African Nation

Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
African Spiritualist
Lecturer, Public Speaker

Chief Osiris,

I hope things are going well for you today. I've read this post and understand your thoughts as touching upon the matters you mention. I'd like to make an observation in positive intent. Your expression is convoluted to some extent. There are a plethora of elements to the writing that make for a disjointed reading experience. This is no criticism, only an observation, I mean no disrespect to your efforts to communicate.

I'm curious as to the subject of the metaphysic. I would not expect you or anyone to be in a position to offer more than a subjective appraisal of what follows, nevertheless I thought it would be interesting to present for consideration. In speaking of perception, in particular as "strange things" occurring in the universe being perceived, it appears, at least as I've taken note of a number of perspectives reported to be rooted in metaphysical vision, there is no consistency in this frame of referencing. As indicated, I track a variety of revelatory oriented ministries who reference intuitive experience as the basis of what's perceived. Some identify with this resource as third eye, others as simply as heightened awareness, remote viewing, etc. In either case, the idea is of numbers of individuals tapping into the inherent ability to attune themselves to the phenomenology from which conscious experience is derived to evaluate or render a judgment of what manifests in their experience in psychic realms. In this population are individuals with notable credentials, as far as having proven themselves clairvoyant or similarly gifted. In this regard Sylvia Brown is very well known, along with others who exhibited extraordinary experience in perception and conscious awareness. In that regard, I am curious as to aspects that appear to be unique to the individual, rather than necessarily representative of broader aspects of reality.

Would you think Brother Osiris the metaphysic has features that funnel an individual into perceptual experiences that are tuned to their particular vibration, therefore interests and issues in life? In other words, is it feasable, at least in your opinion that what's drawn from experiences in heightened perception colored by the vibrational orienttion of individuals? Among psychic types I am aware of it appears their declarations tend to contain aspects that are consistent with the lines of their experience as human beings. Thereby, being oriented to reality from an African perspective this would guide your experience in perceiving the features of the psychic universe. Thereby, truth is as much a subject to our life orientation as it is to reality. In this frame reality is malleable, it can be whatever the circumstance calls for, which indicates, to some extent or another, there is a fluidity to reality. This fluidity is impeccable in its capacity to adapt to what system of thought it encounters. Thereby, in some paradoxical frame, there are features to extrasensory awareness that are hard fact, along with those that are like dreams, they are constructed to mirror what's unique to an individual's orientation to life. Thereby, while a Black may perceive a truth that bears significant features relevant to his experience, an Indian's visions bespeak of a reality that harmonizes with his life orientation. In the midst of the diverse expressions are immutable, unchanging aspects that all men find agreement. Nevertheless, even in the metaphysic community, you do see diversity rather than unanimity of conscious experience. That being the case there are aspects to "reality" we have to understand as being patterned to the vibration of a particular constituency, having no relevance to other kingdoms of experience. In that scenario no one can lay claim to absolute truth, because the absolute is not to be any people's or entities possession, except the Almighty, to who I attribute Jesus Christ as being the ultimate expression in the community of men.

On my last point I know you disagree. This is not in my purview to contest, as each man must live with his own orientation. By no means is faith an illusion however, because as indicated, even among those in the metaphysical community measures of faith are required because there is no uniformity in what's perceived by those who consider they are privey to "deep" insights to the exclusion of all others. The carbon nation scenario yields psychic perception of aspects that are unique to that orientation. An eskimo sage or others in the oriental, indian and other worlds of experience have their own understanding of universal truth. Again, there are mounds of material indicating a metaphysical awareness is malleable to the perceiver's orientation, however is not wholly accountable for the truth that's out there. The absolute is incomprehensible by any one orientation, nevertheless what slices any one metaphysician obtains is the reality of his own choosing or is defined by the nature involved in his making.

As to a cyclical process leading to a reunification of Black people, in being quite honest, in my frame of referencing I do not perceive any universalization of our experience as a people. There are Blacks in Russia, Blacks in the Carribean, Blacks in Europe, etc. I suppose there are those who are longing for this sort of thing, while others don't care less. Anyway, as a psychic perception the notion is interesting to note, however as a hard factual revelation I suspect it is a orientation of mind constructed by a universe who will work to show an individual what they want to see as much as what's real. What do you think?



Hoteph My Dear Beloved Sisters And Brothers:

Beloved, now to many of you, this subject immediately provoke the thought of
religion and it is appropriate for you to do so, because that is the way
your mind has so been trained to believe.

The US IN THE SUBJECT MATTER IS REFERRING TO THE CARBON NATION, Africans we
love to refer to ourselves as being.

The Lord mention here has nothing to do with Jesus nor the Christ, the
leading figure in the western world religious drama, a drama that has been
dramatically effective in transforming an entire Carbon Nation away from the
magic of the Truth, as it dance with only that which is real, supported by
the facts of metaphysic.

It is Time for you my Black Sisters and Brothers to Look once again, using
the inner vision to see that which is True and Real and when you are able to
do so you will know, at this Time, on this Planet and as I speak, there are
strange things taking place in the Universe, strange only to the sense of
perception, wrapped in the folly of religious belief.

Yet the Universe is now speaking with such fervor to the Carbon Nation and
we hear not. Speaking letting us know that the world is in a state of
destructive mode, destructive not in just a physical way but more
importantly in a body Soulful way.

The fact that Mankind has chose belief over the use of profound thought, is
what cause the Universe to now be in a cleansing mode, prepared to let loose
the Lord of the Elements upon those who have disobeyed its presence.

Well now, let us take a look at what the Lord really represent, it is
neither Jesus nor Civil, it is the Law of the Universe and now I say unto
you that the Lord is now upon us once again,requiring that we return back to
become obedient and respectful to the Lord of the Universe, which is the
Universal Law.

Lord = Law, the most cherished Fraternal Code within the annals of Masonic
secrecy, something the Carbon Nation did know, before the conversion to the
ignorance of Religious teaching.

No! I am not a member of any earthly Masonic order,just a by-product of the
Ancient Nubionic Mystery System as the Greeks so referred to such Profound
Teaching and Knowledge that was emanating from the wisdom of our Ancient
Carbon African Ancestors.

Yet you wonder why it is that I do not compromise the fact that our
Salvation is not to be experienced here in america, the other part of the
Diaspora, Europe nor Asia, as it is called today, but will be realized only
upon the Holy Ground of our Ancient Carbon African Ancestors and that ground
I speak of is known now as Africa.

We Children of the gods of Sirius by way of that planet now called Mars, we
have lost our way by the fact we abandon our True identity and now, our
every belief our every action is to see how we can force that which is evil
to accept us into their fold, not so my dear beloved, because you see, the
very people you are trying to fit into are the very people who know who you
really are and to allow you to taste Freedom, Justice and Independence would
be as if evil has submitted to becoming Just, peaceful and Respectful to the
Lord of the Universe.

Let those of you who are in the know about our Blackself, bear witness to
that which is True.

As I often say to you and you choose not to hear, Reparation is more than
political, nor is it ruled by Civil Law, Reparation is Divine and Spiritual
and is govern by the Lord (LAW) of the Universe AND WILL BECOME A REALITY
ONLY WHEN IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS IT HAS BEEN SO PROPHESIZED and that is the
Lord of the Universe must be obeyed, therefore, just as you were at the
beginning oh Carbon Nation, so shall it be once again.

We move not in a straight line but as the Universe, in cycle. Such a cycle
in relation to Reparation is thus so,that is, if we are to obey the Lord of
the Universe, which happen to be, Reparation = Repatriation = AfroDescendant
State = The Reunification of the Carbon African Nation and if this is
preaching Hate then yes my dear beloved, I am Rooted in it !!!

It Is Time To Condemn The Lie And Elevate The Truth!!!

Complete Love To The Carbon African Nation

Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
African Spiritualist
Lecturer, Public Speaker

Hoteph My Dear Astro:

My beloved my writing does just what it is intended to do, without any forethought and that is to cause you to think outside of the controlled use and method of thinking. I write not of myself but as it is given to me to communicate in writing.

Just as to some people it take an effort to read that book call the bible so does it take an effort to read that which is profound, absent of any grammatical and literatuary restraints. Now that is said,let us move on and see what you are inquiriing about.

First of all the Metapsychic is a method that require not action of the senses but that of conceptual recall, something that goes beyond our physical experiences.

I tatally understand what you are saying as well as suggesting and I can not disagree with you more in how you deal with reality and the metapsychic.

Though many of us of different ethnic background may make claim to the metapsychic connection, the method of clicking into such diminisonal innervision perception, absent of any guidance by our senses, may vary, the the data and knowledge as revealed by the universe does not cointridict its reality.

Contrary to what you ask in the form of a question but yet suggesting it being a stated fact, concerning Reality being what we perceive it to be, I most certainly respectfully have to disagree.

True and Infinite Reality is not fluid nor is it elastic and it most certainly has nothing to do with how we perceive it to be and such only take place on the sensual level, which is where illusion reside.

Illusion has no place in the metapsychic diminision and the universe does not speak to the dictate of our sensual experiences.

On the levl of extended consciousness, faith, belief and hope has no standing with respect to that which is Universal True and Real and such can not be understood by attempting to incert the physical with the Super Natural ( non physical).

I had no preception of what God is, nor had I had such a perceived experience with God to the point I could take It to such a diminisional level that defy all sense of perception, which is a sign of one remaing on the physical level, attempting to juggle personal experiences with that which is conceived on the metapsychic level.

It does not matter wheather you are in Africa, Russia or the pole of Alaska eskimo, if one has the aqbility to transcend the physical level of life and enter the level of eternal infinite existence, then what is conceptually seen is constant to the innervision of who so make such a claim and it has nothing to do with our sensual experiences, which happen to be the profane of that which is most profound.

The Carbon Nation is unique in and unto itself and such a fact has nothing to do with how we perceive ourselves to be creatively.

I am given the ability to recall that which I experienced not and I share and how I share, it is up to you in how you interpret it.

I too my dear,mean you no disrespct

Much Love
Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
Africal Spiritualist

I appreciate your ready reply to my post, thank you. There are a few points on which we disagree, which may lead to broader perspectives.

As has already been acknowledged the content of much of your writing derives from a metaphysical perspective. This rests on reports of direct experiences in conscious awareness, on a psychical plane. While I am aware of aspects of psychical phenomenology I have no substantive body of direct experience that supercedes perception in a third dimensional setting. Ordinarily, one may suspect psychic reality to be entirely incongruent to constructs common to third dimensional reality. You may want to comment on the following assertion. Being translatable to some extent, aspects of psychic reality are subject to being expressed in terms that are comprehensible to third dimensional thought without compromising a substantive description of aspects of the psychic reality. There are some commonalities aren't there to aspects of psychic reality to material reality, of patterns of constructs to some extent or another? Or, is the perceptual frame completely alien to our perceptual frame to the extent it's not possible to order the mind to speak accurately of what's experienced? If that's the case, how can you speak of your experiences in that realm, if there are to correlatable themes to speak of it in our own aspect of reality?

Concerning the last question, in scripture the Apostle Paul speaks of an experience wherein he was not able to tell whether he was in his body or not. He also spoke of having witnessed things that were unspeakable in the third dimensional frame of reference. I know you are not Christian. I am, nevertheless in your psychic recall experience you do speak in descriptive terms of what you experience. This implies, at least in terms of the level of your perceptual incursions into recall, you are functioning in a realm akin to our own in some aspects, otherwise, like the Apostle Paul you would not be able to speak in terms that are comprehensible in our frame in this dimensional aspect.

As to the aformentioned, matriculating in non-ordinary reality, or at least the aspect you can access by virtue of the extent of your psychic ability, iit seems apparent there is an aspect to your experience that's influenced by the form of consciousness you bring into the equation. It follows that we see a certain rule in all things, alll reality is bound together by a commonality of principles, including the metaphysical. You yourself spoke of Law, which in your frame is likened to Lord. In your use of the word Lord the term is metaphorical for law. This is acceptable, only to the extent of there being a pre-eminent authority bringing order and continuity to all expressions, including the metaphysical realm. However, in a christian frame Lord has identity, in terms of personality and intent, and creative expression by virtue of will.

Although decrying faith as profane to truth you wrote " I had no preception of what God is, nor had I had such a perceived experience with God to the point I could take It to such a diminisional level that defy all sense of perception, which is a sign of one remaing on the physical level, attempting to juggle personal experiences with that which is conceived on the metapsychic level." As indicated the Apostle Paul wrote in the same frame, however, in his frame, he pronounced a complete disassociation from an ability to judge what frame was actual for his existence. Of course, unlike a metaphysical experience in perception of manifest reality, when speaking of being in the highest estate, which would be with the Creator, one's experience would supercede all other levels of expression. In your writing you speak of an entity you cannot perceive as God, capitalizing the term rendering a real and personal view of the reality of this power's existing. I may not have read your writing as you intended, this is the impression however. In carefully delineating the experiences in recall you differentiate faith from truth, yet speak in terms of an entity existing you would at least honor with having attributes that supercede your own, since we are this entity's creation. There would be no reason to refer to this aspect as God, unless you view the absolute reality no more than an energy of some kind. If not, how do you consider the God entity in terms that validate your ability to judge? It wouldn't follow that a God entity would be something less than we are. We speak in terms of knowing and experiencing consciously, yet would sense an entity we refer to as God as lacking in qualities that are rich in our own beings. And, if the metaphyiscal recall falls short of comprehending the reality of God, by necessity you must refer to this unsearchable presence in faith terms to explain your inability to discern or perceive its reality. How do you acknowledge the reality of something that can only be perceived by faith? Therefore, even in a metaphysical frame and having access to universal reality, are you not also subject to having to grasp the idea of God by faith? And, does that profane your perception of what's real by virtue of what you've come to know through recall?

In light of the aforementioned consideration it would also appear that psychical perception has bounds. Those may be the very prejudices we both agreed can be in operation in one's perceptions of their experience in a metaphysical realm. I realize, as you indicate, referencing from a material frame can be corrupting of the reality of the psychical experience, nevertheless in what we see in a communication on this aspect there must be some values in communicating the experiences in this realm. If not, none of what's said need be taken too seirously, since the thoughts being formed to inform others of metaphysical reality are being tainted by the perceptual necessities of the material reality.

When replying to my observation of variances in psychic perception by psychics who are oriented along a certain vibrational line, e.g. based on their ethnic or other inherent aspect to their being, you wrote, "linnervision perception, absent of any guidance by our senses, may vary, the the data and knowledge as revealed by the universe does not cointridict its reality." There being this channeling into perceptual frames due to the individual's adaption to life, who's to say what is actual as far as anyone's report of "the data and knowledge revealed by the universe"? Who is truly the arbiter of reality, at least in the sense of the relative values of what they communicate as being true of its essential character?

In my mind, which again is that of someone living in ordinary perceptual frames, a data base on the psychic plane does exist. I am welll aware of word of the Akhasic Record, which Edgar Cayce tapped into to enliven his unconscious awareness of others conditions from afar and to formulate prescriptions for their cure. In your writing it seems you are saying the universe is especially harmonic with the Carbon Nation, as if all that flows from the divine power is calibrated to be especially relevant to our being as Black people. This, by necessity either deminishes or subjugates the values of others humanity on the scale of creation. In my thinking, conceiving a reality that's specifically calibrated to meet its highest potential in the consciousness of a certain kind of person is akin to acquiescing to belief, which youu say profanes Truth. Mankind is not the only form of conscious being in the universe nor do I perceive carbon being an entre' to a state of being most suitable to become aware of the truth. You and I can argue the point forever, this is a matter where other kinds of people who are conceptually gifted like yourself would probably take issue. I do not consider the metaphysical expression of reality incomprehensible altogether. The aspect of conceptual recall may be an entre' to awareness of a broader range of reality than can be perceived in the confines of our senses, even so, in elements of your writing it's apparent there are aspects of your interpretation that rely on a conceptualization of truth. As you alluded, psychic perceptions as to reality irrevocable data. Truth is a quality owing its existence to an authority, which according to scripture is past finding out, it's owner is God who, even the most sensitive type is incapable of discerning or having means to define.

I enjoy chatting with you. I know I can throw some curve balls, nonetheless no harm intended. My purpose is only to challenge what is problematic to what appears immutable in my thinking. Again, I make no claim on knowing all there is to know about what I speak to. I can understand articulation, whether it comes from my own mind or others. I appreciate your thoughts, however I perceive there are problems here and there, which are completely in alignment with our being human.

thank you for your time, I hope you find our talks as interesting as I do,

Astro :cool:




Hoteph My Dear Astro:

My beloved my writing does just what it is intended to do, without any forethought and that is to cause you to think outside of the controlled use and method of thinking. I write not of myself but as it is given to me to communicate in writing.

Just as to some people it take an effort to read that book call the bible so does it take an effort to read that which is profound, absent of any grammatical and literatuary restraints. Now that is said,let us move on and see what you are inquiriing about.

First of all the Metapsychic is a method that require not action of the senses but that of conceptual recall, something that goes beyond our physical experiences.

I tatally understand what you are saying as well as suggesting and I can not disagree with you more in how you deal with reality and the metapsychic.

Though many of us of different ethnic background may make claim to the metapsychic connection, the method of clicking into such diminisonal innervision perception, absent of any guidance by our senses, may vary, the the data and knowledge as revealed by the universe does not cointridict its reality.

Contrary to what you ask in the form of a question but yet suggesting it being a stated fact, concerning Reality being what we perceive it to be, I most certainly respectfully have to disagree.

True and Infinite Reality is not fluid nor is it elastic and it most certainly has nothing to do with how we perceive it to be and such only take place on the sensual level, which is where illusion reside.

Illusion has no place in the metapsychic diminision and the universe does not speak to the dictate of our sensual experiences.

On the levl of extended consciousness, faith, belief and hope has no standing with respect to that which is Universal True and Real and such can not be understood by attempting to incert the physical with the Super Natural ( non physical).

I had no preception of what God is, nor had I had such a perceived experience with God to the point I could take It to such a diminisional level that defy all sense of perception, which is a sign of one remaing on the physical level, attempting to juggle personal experiences with that which is conceived on the metapsychic level.

It does not matter wheather you are in Africa, Russia or the pole of Alaska eskimo, if one has the aqbility to transcend the physical level of life and enter the level of eternal infinite existence, then what is conceptually seen is constant to the innervision of who so make such a claim and it has nothing to do with our sensual experiences, which happen to be the profane of that which is most profound.

The Carbon Nation is unique in and unto itself and such a fact has nothing to do with how we perceive ourselves to be creatively.

I am given the ability to recall that which I experienced not and I share and how I share, it is up to you in how you interpret it.

I too my dear,mean you no disrespct

Much Love
Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
Africal Spiritualist

My Dear Astro:

My engagement in conversation with you, I consider it not to be an act of argument but reasoning.

Here is your problem with what I speak, in my opinion. You are attempting to restructure what I say and put it within the frame work of your religious teaching and belief. My position about belief, hope and faith is clearly stated and nothing I have conveyed here has the taste of faith, such limits keep one from venturing into the abyss of that which is True and Real.

I have already established my position about God and what I know it to be and an anthopomorphis Being IT is not.

I did not do the creating of all things and I had no say in the Carbonic make uo of a Nation that is entirely different from other members of the Hue - Man Family by pigment. I refute and reject the teaching and conditioning about the Mass of Darkness belonging in the pit of evil and is ungodly, such is what the creators of Religion so instituted, I am just setting the facts straight, regarding the mass of Darkness and our kin and likness of it.

Yet I do not so claim that there is none that is Just other than the Carbon Nation, I let the action and the behavior and attitude of Man, determine its place with God. God is alive and it speak, yet is without tongue, it see and yet is withour eyes, it hear and yet is without ears and it feel and yet can not be touched and IT PRESENT TO US THE VARIOUS DIMINISION TO THE UNIVERSE AND ALL THAT ARE IN IT, WHICH INCLUDE OTHER lIFE FORM.

No, God does not require a tangable body and is not being directed by what we call physical senses, this I know and need not faith to support that which I know.

My point of reference about the Universe and its creator is not physical but is metaphysical

God is all of that we describe IT to be and yet none of that.

What I share I remain firm and how it is interpret is the action of the interpreter and it is the interpreter that is making the judgement about what I share and so be it.

My Respect remain

Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
African Spiritualist

Much respector Chief Osiris,

No doubt we are on varying perspectives as to aspects of Creation and the reality of the Creator and its revelation. We have been engaged in an exercise of reasoning, I agree. The thoughts generated have been of testimonials we are either certain or are convinced in our knowing. Like yourself, I perceive what I've comprehended of reality are factual, where Jesus is concerned. The historicity of his existence is beyond reproach, yet you do not perceive this as so. It is not my purpose to wring varioius issues I have with your perspectives bone dry. I don't sense that's possible anyway, you express your points with consistency and a claim of being absolute in having identified or experienced what is true. We are on the same plane in that regard whose incongruence is far too complicated to resolve. So, I'll say this in concluding, there are frames of reference people adopt in light of what means and devices are cast in their path to structure their learning. You are as certain of the reality of the slant of your metaphysical experience as I am of what's been revealed of the Living God in scripture. I consider it unfortunate that some people forsake what may well prove a substantive exposure to the light of reality as it is expressed in verse. I hope you have an inkling of perceiving I am not a religious man, at least in the classical sense. I perceive you to be wholly committed to your system of thought, with a powerful means to express your points. Although it appears nothing more than interesting chat will ever come of our interaction, despite our respective frames I can relate to you in an honorable and respectful fashion. Ultimately, at least as I perceive truth, all men are aligned with what's most essential to reality is when they can view one another's reality without losing sight of the individual's right to be themselves. I respect your right to be yourself as I would expect you do the same in my behalf. I've enjoyed our conversation. I'll be dropping into your realm from time to time to render a thought or two. Likewise, always feel free to communicate with me if you find my conversation fulfilling, although there are points of variance in our appreciation of what's true and what's real.


Astro........ :coffee:


My Dear Astro:

My engagement in conversation with you, I consider it not to be an act of argument but reasoning.

Here is your problem with what I speak, in my opinion. You are attempting to restructure what I say and put it within the frame work of your religious teaching and belief. My position about belief, hope and faith is clearly stated and nothing I have conveyed here has the taste of faith, such limits keep one from venturing into the abyss of that which is True and Real.

I have already established my position about God and what I know it to be and an anthopomorphis Being IT is not.

I did not do the creating of all things and I had no say in the Carbonic make uo of a Nation that is entirely different from other members of the Hue - Man Family by pigment. I refute and reject the teaching and conditioning about the Mass of Darkness belonging in the pit of evil and is ungodly, such is what the creators of Religion so instituted, I am just setting the facts straight, regarding the mass of Darkness and our kin and likness of it.

Yet I do not so claim that there is none that is Just other than the Carbon Nation, I let the action and the behavior and attitude of Man, determine its place with God. God is alive and it speak, yet is without tongue, it see and yet is withour eyes, it hear and yet is without ears and it feel and yet can not be touched and IT PRESENT TO US THE VARIOUS DIMINISION TO THE UNIVERSE AND ALL THAT ARE IN IT, WHICH INCLUDE OTHER lIFE FORM.

No, God does not require a tangable body and is not being directed by what we call physical senses, this I know and need not faith to support that which I know.

My point of reference about the Universe and its creator is not physical but is metaphysical

God is all of that we describe IT to be and yet none of that.

What I share I remain firm and how it is interpret is the action of the interpreter and it is the interpreter that is making the judgement about what I share and so be it.

My Respect remain

Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
African Spiritualist

My Dear Astro:

Engaging with you on such a profound topic is thought provoking and such mental action is good. I don't think it is much about agreeing than understanding each other. You take the Bible as acurate historical fact I take it as a book full of a combination of required revealed interpretations, prose, metaphors and fables in part but that is neither here or there, the important thing is we can engage in conversation and remain civil and that I do respect of you.

I will look forward to our next encounter, wheather you or I initeate the call.

Respectfully

We are in agreement, isn't that interesting how that came about. You know, Chief Osiris usually when people find themselves on opposite polls of a subject they resort to recrimmination. It's a good thing we have regard for one another, because, all being said and done we do share a common heritage. We are both Black men, even more human beings. Above all, if we maintain those values, no matter how our minds form around an issue we should still be able to break bread and be respectful of one another in our disagreeing. I appreciate that aspect in dealing with you.

Astro.... :spin:


My Dear Astro:

Engaging with you on such a profound topic is thought provoking and such mental action is good. I don't think it is much about agreeing than understanding each other. You take the Bible as acurate historical fact I take it as a book full of a combination of required revealed interpretations, prose, metaphors and fables in part but that is neither here or there, the important thing is we can engage in conversation and remain civil and that I do respect of you.

I will look forward to our next encounter, wheather you or I initeate the call.

Respectfully

I just have a few comments to Astro. You sound very intelligent but how can you believe in a virgin giving the birth without question just because some man wrote such a thing also the parting of the red sea, that's not reasonable or realistic but yet you beieve in a religion that promoted chattle slavery and the carachters are in the image of the oppressors. The ones that beat and killed our fore parents to believe, have faith, and not quetions this christian religion and here we are doing the same thing. Aren't you a little curious about your parents African religion, nubian religioun, profound religion verses this hollywood mumbojumbo?

When raising questions of the reality of aspects that are extraordinary to what's known, the response must be framed to bridge the respective points of view on the issue. In other words, as I believe has been worked out with Chief Elder Osiris, I will attempt for develop a frame of reference wherein we can discuss your issues that will allow our respective views on reality to at least be partially preserved. Of course, there will need for a thought to take precedence, truth is unforgiving in that regard. In that light, as you've framed your question, on the surface, it's my opinion you have thoroughly considered what you've challenged me to respond to.

Let us begin on in a singular plane of consideration. I will assume you are involved in a frame of referencing reality based on aspects of African cosmology. I say aspects because the continent does not share a common view on all aspects of concepts of spirituality. There is no such thing as a uniform belief system all Africans subscribe to. In that vein, in prodding one to consider African spirituality I would ask what frame are you referring to out of the choices there are to be made? I'm not asking you to trouble yourself to consider the diversity of spiritual perspectives there are on the continent, only to bring attention to the fact that not all Africans have a common view on spiritual reality. There are commonalities throughout the continent in some aspects, but no uniform philosophy that all African peoples honor. Therefore, when speaking of African spirituality you need to consider there are aspects to that expression, some being quite different from others. This same phenomena is true of all belief systems, there's diversity in all schools of thought where men's conceptualizing the spiritual reality is concerned.

One concept that's common to the overwhelming majority of spiritually oriented belief systems is a belief in a deity. Among the few who expouse insights into a spiritual component to life who do not perceive the existence of a God entity are Buddhist. By necessity, their systems and what others there are who do not perceive a God entity must rely on naturalistic notions to explain the existence of life and intelligence. Most people in this frame of reference subscribe to the theory of evolution, whereas systems who conceptualize a God entity attribute the creation to its power and purpose.

Being Christian I subscribe to a God entity concept involving a conscious power, a being having pre-eminent authority. In this, it's not my concern or need to pooint to the God of Christianity, merely to speak to the concept of a God entity. In that light, since you are encouraging identifying with African spirituality I would think it safe to assume you ascribe to a spiritual concept that references its existing to a God entity. Those who ancestor worship subscribe to the notion of a God entity. Their idea is that the ancestors are positioned to forward matters concerning living relatives needs, hopes and dreams to a higher spiritual power than themselves. So, even though some folks are immersed in ancestor worshipping, they do so acknowledging the ancestors are not the last word in spiritual power and authority, that they are subject to something greater themselves, a God entity.

Now, on assuming you subscribe to a notion that acknowledges a God entity I would ask you what do you consider are the bounds of the God entity's power? In Christianity, "nothing is impossible for God." However, let's look at the concept of a God having no name or particular affiliaiton with any earthly belief system. What would you suppose would be essential to the reality of any God existing? There are a few things that come to my mind, which harmonize with what's revealed of the God who is presented in scripture. First, the God entity would have intelligence. It would not fare well for human beings to make a case for or against the existing of God, failing to realize their views are a consequence of their ability to reason. The first aspect of any God entity that appeals to reason would be a God of Reason. There are those who consider a God who has no reasoning, that it is a power having no conscious involvement. This notion puts man in a position where he chooses to speak authoritatively on an entity no man is in a position to make such determinations of. It does not follow that man can render judgment and exercise reason, when the power to which his existence is owed goes without. Therefore, at the root, it is far more reasonable to perceive a God entity would be conscious, that it would have a thought life, etc. Is this unreasonable?

In respect to your questioning the virgin birth, etc., assuming you consider what I've said so far as being reasonable I would also suggest you consider a God entities power. At the root of our being and the universe existing is the question of how these things came to be. The presentation of a God entity in the world's belief systems is a proposition accounting for the universe and our living. Is there anything substantive to give pause to reason a God actually exists? Oh yeah, there's plenty, however you must be informed of what's known to grasp the idea that men have become increasingly able to identify aspects that are pointing to the existence of a divine power.

Concerning the universe, at one time a theory called Steady State was embraced by many. In this idea the universe was eternal, wherein masses of gaseous clouds collected and heated under pressures and eventually exploded, leading to what you see in the universe today. This notion was destroyed by the Law of Entrophy, which I won't go into at this time. This left the Big Bang Theory standing all alone, unchallenged. The Big Bang indictes the material universe was generated out of nothing from some unfathomable external power. What might that power be you think? Nevertheless, through hyper-dimensional physics another idea has come, Super String Theory. In Super String the idea is of seven vibrational lines emanating in ten dimensional planes whose resonances firm the foundation on which our universe exists. This is not an outlandish idea, you see the principle every time you open your mouth. When you speak you create vibrations in the air, the vibrations travel and eventually travel in a descending circle in the cochlea. As the vibration resonates through the liquid in the cochlea it stimulates movement of hairs suspended in the element. In turn the hairs vibrating excites the generation of electrical impulses that travel to and are organized in the brain as coherent sound. Everything you hear and perceive, whether it be sounds, sights, feelings, tastes, whatever are constructs that come from expressions of power being generated by an external source. That being the case, reason allows one to consider there is a conscious power manifesting energies that coalesce into the materialization of our reality.

With the aforementioned scenario in mind, which I believe you would agree is quite reasonable, scripture indicates the Living God, in the original language, cast the creation down out of himself into existing. In short, out of nothing our reality came into being. The nothingness was potential that had not been expressed. It came into being on being chosen to be expressed, as you choose your words and, like your words was cast out fo the being of this power I will refer to as the God entity, to harmonize with the mind set in this forum.

If it's reasonably demonstrated a God entity is a very real possibility,, then, if there is a power that can create a material reality by the Word of its Power, which is what scripture tells, what would it be to manipulating the creation it brought into being? In that light, while some folks feel it preposterous that a woman could conceive without conventional impregnation, a body of water to seperate, a man raising from the dead according to his own word, etc. these things are quite plausible to consider. If you perceive there is a God entity, no matter what frame of refernce you consider the idea, why is it amazing that someone who has a view on a God entity would consider it plausible this presence could alter the laws that define our reality at his own choosing? Is it phenomenal to you that a Creator makes certain things his business to perform. Do you perceive you are in a position to call into question what a God entity may choose to do? I would have you to know there's much and scripture to break your teeth on if you want to mock the faith. I will simply count you as being spoiled by what your resentments, at the thought of what some have done in the name of God. What men may does doesn't cancel the call to consider the reality of this being's existence. You certainly believe in something pointing to a God entity, otherwise you wouldn't be referring to African spirituality. What say you reveal what your thoughts are on the existence of a God entity. I subscribe to the Christian concept of God, what do you perceive? Tell me. I'll deal with the other aspects of your post later. For now, let's focus on your position on the existence of God, I've laid out a reasonable foundation on which you can stand.

Astro....... :shades:


I just have a few comments to Astro. You sound very intelligent but how can you believe in a virgin giving the birth without question just because some man wrote such a thing also the parting of the red sea, that's not reasonable or realistic but yet you beieve in a religion that promoted chattle slavery and the carachters are in the image of the oppressors. The ones that beat and killed our fore parents to believe, have faith, and not quetions this christian religion and here we are doing the same thing. Aren't you a little curious about your parents African religion, nubian religioun, profound religion verses this hollywood mumbojumbo?

My last post is addressing ttmitchell4's questioning. I don't want Chief Osiris to think I was referring to him in this discussion, although, since its in his forum he and anyone has a right to speak on what's indicated.


When raising questions of the reality of aspects that are extraordinary to what's known, the response must be framed to bridge the respective points of view on the issue. In other words, as I believe has been worked out with Chief Elder Osiris, I will attempt for develop a frame of reference wherein we can discuss your issues that will allow our respective views on reality to at least be partially preserved. Of course, there will need for a thought to take precedence, truth is unforgiving in that regard. In that light, as you've framed your question, on the surface, it's my opinion you have thoroughly considered what you've challenged me to respond to.

Let us begin on in a singular plane of consideration. I will assume you are involved in a frame of referencing reality based on aspects of African cosmology. I say aspects because the continent does not share a common view on all aspects of concepts of spirituality. There is no such thing as a uniform belief system all Africans subscribe to. In that vein, in prodding one to consider African spirituality I would ask what frame are you referring to out of the choices there are to be made? I'm not asking you to trouble yourself to consider the diversity of spiritual perspectives there are on the continent, only to bring attention to the fact that not all Africans have a common view on spiritual reality. There are commonalities throughout the continent in some aspects, but no uniform philosophy that all African peoples honor. Therefore, when speaking of African spirituality you need to consider there are aspects to that expression, some being quite different from others. This same phenomena is true of all belief systems, there's diversity in all schools of thought where men's conceptualizing the spiritual reality is concerned.

One concept that's common to the overwhelming majority of spiritually oriented belief systems is a belief in a deity. Among the few who expouse insights into a spiritual component to life who do not perceive the existence of a God entity are Buddhist. By necessity, their systems and what others there are who do not perceive a God entity must rely on naturalistic notions to explain the existence of life and intelligence. Most people in this frame of reference subscribe to the theory of evolution, whereas systems who conceptualize a God entity attribute the creation to its power and purpose.

Being Christian I subscribe to a God entity concept involving a conscious power, a being having pre-eminent authority. In this, it's not my concern or need to pooint to the God of Christianity, merely to speak to the concept of a God entity. In that light, since you are encouraging identifying with African spirituality I would think it safe to assume you ascribe to a spiritual concept that references its existing to a God entity. Those who ancestor worship subscribe to the notion of a God entity. Their idea is that the ancestors are positioned to forward matters concerning living relatives needs, hopes and dreams to a higher spiritual power than themselves. So, even though some folks are immersed in ancestor worshipping, they do so acknowledging the ancestors are not the last word in spiritual power and authority, that they are subject to something greater themselves, a God entity.

Now, on assuming you subscribe to a notion that acknowledges a God entity I would ask you what do you consider are the bounds of the God entity's power? In Christianity, "nothing is impossible for God." However, let's look at the concept of a God having no name or particular affiliaiton with any earthly belief system. What would you suppose would be essential to the reality of any God existing? There are a few things that come to my mind, which harmonize with what's revealed of the God who is presented in scripture. First, the God entity would have intelligence. It would not fare well for human beings to make a case for or against the existing of God, failing to realize their views are a consequence of their ability to reason. The first aspect of any God entity that appeals to reason would be a God of Reason. There are those who consider a God who has no reasoning, that it is a power having no conscious involvement. This notion puts man in a position where he chooses to speak authoritatively on an entity no man is in a position to make such determinations of. It does not follow that man can render judgment and exercise reason, when the power to which his existence is owed goes without. Therefore, at the root, it is far more reasonable to perceive a God entity would be conscious, that it would have a thought life, etc. Is this unreasonable?

In respect to your questioning the virgin birth, etc., assuming you consider what I've said so far as being reasonable I would also suggest you consider a God entities power. At the root of our being and the universe existing is the question of how these things came to be. The presentation of a God entity in the world's belief systems is a proposition accounting for the universe and our living. Is there anything substantive to give pause to reason a God actually exists? Oh yeah, there's plenty, however you must be informed of what's known to grasp the idea that men have become increasingly able to identify aspects that are pointing to the existence of a divine power.

Concerning the universe, at one time a theory called Steady State was embraced by many. In this idea the universe was eternal, wherein masses of gaseous clouds collected and heated under pressures and eventually exploded, leading to what you see in the universe today. This notion was destroyed by the Law of Entrophy, which I won't go into at this time. This left the Big Bang Theory standing all alone, unchallenged. The Big Bang indictes the material universe was generated out of nothing from some unfathomable external power. What might that power be you think? Nevertheless, through hyper-dimensional physics another idea has come, Super String Theory. In Super String the idea is of seven vibrational lines emanating in ten dimensional planes whose resonances firm the foundation on which our universe exists. This is not an outlandish idea, you see the principle every time you open your mouth. When you speak you create vibrations in the air, the vibrations travel and eventually travel in a descending circle in the cochlea. As the vibration resonates through the liquid in the cochlea it stimulates movement of hairs suspended in the element. In turn the hairs vibrating excites the generation of electrical impulses that travel to and are organized in the brain as coherent sound. Everything you hear and perceive, whether it be sounds, sights, feelings, tastes, whatever are constructs that come from expressions of power being generated by an external source. That being the case, reason allows one to consider there is a conscious power manifesting energies that coalesce into the materialization of our reality.

With the aforementioned scenario in mind, which I believe you would agree is quite reasonable, scripture indicates the Living God, in the original language, cast the creation down out of himself into existing. In short, out of nothing our reality came into being. The nothingness was potential that had not been expressed. It came into being on being chosen to be expressed, as you choose your words and, like your words was cast out fo the being of this power I will refer to as the God entity, to harmonize with the mind set in this forum.

If it's reasonably demonstrated a God entity is a very real possibility,, then, if there is a power that can create a material reality by the Word of its Power, which is what scripture tells, what would it be to manipulating the creation it brought into being? In that light, while some folks feel it preposterous that a woman could conceive without conventional impregnation, a body of water to seperate, a man raising from the dead according to his own word, etc. these things are quite plausible to consider. If you perceive there is a God entity, no matter what frame of refernce you consider the idea, why is it amazing that someone who has a view on a God entity would consider it plausible this presence could alter the laws that define our reality at his own choosing? Is it phenomenal to you that a Creator makes certain things his business to perform. Do you perceive you are in a position to call into question what a God entity may choose to do? I would have you to know there's much and scripture to break your teeth on if you want to mock the faith. I will simply count you as being spoiled by what your resentments, at the thought of what some have done in the name of God. What men may does doesn't cancel the call to consider the reality of this being's existence. You certainly believe in something pointing to a God entity, otherwise you wouldn't be referring to African spirituality. What say you reveal what your thoughts are on the existence of a God entity. I subscribe to the Christian concept of God, what do you perceive? Tell me. I'll deal with the other aspects of your post later. For now, let's focus on your position on the existence of God, I've laid out a reasonable foundation on which you can stand.

Astro....... :shades:

I have laid a foundation to address the first issues raised in your note to me. In short, I wrote to indicate the plausibility of the existence of a God entity. I spoke in terms of what's known from a scientific perspective and current theory, and what's evidenced in mankind's belief systems. At the same time, since this is in Chief Osiri's environment, I want to acknowledge his raising this subject and honor his perspectives as they relate to this conversation, even though he may disagree with me on certain points.

You approached Astro in a manner that was in a negative slant, taking issue with people embracing the idea of a virgin birth, the parting of the Red Sea, etc. as being short in their thinking. I pointed out that, if indeed there is a God entity these would be well within his purview, since he is the Creator. If you acknowledge a God entity as Creator there's nothing to deny his ability to perform.

With the aforementioned in mind I also want to speak to the fact there are belief systems with God's who are not creative powers. These tend to be polytheistic like the Hinduus with 30 million gods. By necessity not every one of the Hinduu gods can be the Creator. The Christian God, who the Muslims speak to as Allah are singular entities. The Christian God is quite audacious in claiming to be the only God. Scripture indicates there is none like him. In the book of the Job 26.11-14 "The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. He divides the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiites through the proud. By his spirit he has garnished the heavens; his hand has formed the crooked serpent. Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?"

To subscribe to the notion a God entity does exist, which I do, with all there is in the creation to witness is no foolish man's idea. Another thing in scripture is "A fool has said in his heart there is no God.." I believe in a God entity whose names are revealed in scripture, at least I am convinced he is revealed in scripture. The God I acknowledge can do what men cannot come to terms with with ease. The God entity I serve can do all that satisfies the good pleasure of his will. Tell me about the God you perceive to be the the bearer of our existence and the universe' creation.

Now that I've spoken to what the God I serve is capable of performing and requested you tell me about yours, perhaps we can take notes to see how the two stand in the hallways of reason.

Now, on to your next phase, the idea of believing in a religion that "promoted chattle slavery and the characters that are in the image of the oppressors."
It may amaze you on hearing this, there are black eyes on Christianity as there are on any faith that men have gotten their grimey hands on. That has nothing to do with the factual aspects you see in scripture on the subject. In scripture you see God alllowing the children of Israel to be subjected to slavery for repeatedly transgressing observances that were outlined in the Law. They were under this bondage for over 400 years and cried out to be delivered for many years before they were delivered. What's interesting is they were in bondage the exact number of years they'd failed to perform the particular observances that were outlined in his Law. You go out and run somebody over, that's against the law. What should be the consequence of your action, go on as you please? There was nothing in this respect that was in violation of any principle we acknowledge in law today. If you are referring to African slavery by Whites, which appears to be the case in your writing, there's nothing in scripture to justify what happened to our people. Again, when men get their grimey hands on any faith it loses value in someone's eyes. Nevertheless, to blame the faith with what happened to our people is a flawed logic to say the least. There were Africans in on the slave trade as well, which some people find ways to turn their involvement into the White man's working. The White man has his sin in this matter, no doubt the greater portion, nonetheless to attribute slavery to Christianity is a false assumption. There's nothig in scripture directing this activity should have occurred, African slavery is entirely the work of Whites and those Africans who found it convenient and profitable to participate in. Whatever faith aspect they ascribed to, at least the "Christians" was no aspect of the faith, it was what they did as human beings wearing the faith as something they identified with. They were hypocrits, which is spoken against by Jesus in vigorous terms in scripture and other biblical writers who had direct experiences with him. So, trying to smudge Christianity with slavery is something you and others do to fuel the fires of your arguments. it's not correct however.

In regards to the matter at hand, I have to speak to Chief Osiris' perspective. He cites all religion as false and indicates reality has no shackles of religion attached. I agree, religion is largely rooted in deception and lies. It was the religious leaders of Jesus' day who were out to have him killed, not the people. Through religion, people have done with Christianity what they've done with any major belief system, engaged in behavior that has brought shame to the faith. Well, this is what menll, if given enough time, will do. Do you suppose that deminshes the reality of the faith or merely gives it a bad name? There are people who do things that give their family' a bad name, are we to view the family based on what a knucklehead son or daughter may do? Of course not. Your view of Christianity does not take into account this very simple logic. it's very tiring dealing with people who spout off at the mouth without a thought to what they're saying. You need to give yourself a break.
You also need to give yourself a break concerning how Jesus is portrayed in artistic renderings. It's normal for Whites to paint as they do in this regard, just as when you see paintings of Jesus in Japan he has slanted eyes. It's normal for people to conceptualize things in forms that are common to their beings. Just like you're trying real hard to be an African descendant in what you've embraced Eskimos, Japanese, Russians, Mexicans, etc. are all doing the same thing. Come on man, you need to get your mind on a higher level.

Anyway, I've spent the time to provide a substantive reply. Now, let's see what you're working with or are you going to fade into the woodwork having found you can't deal with Astro?

:jumping:
by the fact that also, keep as being worthy of our res
I just have a few comments to Astro. You sound very intelligent but how can you believe in a virgin giving the birth without question just because some man wrote such a thing also the parting of the red sea, that's not reasonable or realistic but yet you beieve in a religion that promoted chattle slavery and the carachters are in the image of the oppressors. The ones that beat and killed our fore parents to believe, have faith, and not quetions this christian religion and here we are doing the same thing. Aren't you a little curious about your parents African religion, nubian religioun, profound religion verses this hollywood mumbojumbo?

First of all with all due respect what I am saying is a lot more simpler than you are interpeting. But some people like to hear themselves talk verses getting understanding and recognizing truth. You talk is if there is no such thing as truth and you have to receiver from some other source other than your self to acknowledge it. My dear brother Astro my concept of African spirituality is you connecting with the univeral elements on a personal individual and personal level. In order to do this you must first know who you are and become fascinated and interested in the discovery of who you are and strive to elevate that which you find. Our Ancient African Nubian ancestors have left treasures of truths and answers to all therein and when others stumbled upon these treasures they shaped it and formed to fit themselve and their image and sold it to you and you bought it all in a very through and literal way with no question. Which is very sad because what they sold you was designed to enable you to acknowledge their treasures they left for you for your redemption and also the ability to recognize them within yourself. Sure we went through the middle passage for something and it wasn't to embrace the murders religion and land that whom kidnaped our mothers and fathers and sold them and treated them like animals. We went through the middle passage to establish ourselves as the priviledged ones that will take our mother and fathers land back to it's greatness with reparations and repartiate (exodus) back to our land as an independent nation-state of afro-descendants collecting our inheritance with an aim to unify Africa and to experinece real freedom which is something our parents nor us will ever experience here in america unless pharoh let God's people go. You see brother all these religions be it christanity, islam, etc. are all the teachings of our Ancient African ancestors so you and I need not to have differences about this issue because we have a connection my brother which is Roots. No black person can deny their roots. I believe no matter what kind of black you are be it Haitian, Jamaican, etc. we have common roots that is Africa. I'm not in any competition with you eventhough you're using that tone. If I said anything to offend you was not my intention, I just tell it from my point of view but I certainly respect yours. Furthermore, black people here in the diaspora has not conceptualized nothing on christanity they only mimic the other races, and take other races religions as there's when our ancestors left us a very profound theology of creation and God which all other religions is based on but yet we chose to continue in this slave mentality state of mind as if we never conceived or had an original thought
on this matter when it is our ancestors that had the first thought and conception of it all. Look how far we have fallen even to the point where a very intelligent minded person like your self don't have any knowledge of yourself and your greatness. Astro, if you take me speaking on the level and mind set of my African ancestors profound teachings as a negative slant than you really need to find your self because you are drowning and don't even know it but speak very well on the thing that is not of you not from you not about you which I call fanatical thinking. Our African Ancestor dealt in the concept of knowing not faith and believing for those concepts were created. only for a slave and they done an excellent job in selling it to people like yourself. You stated that christanity had nothing to do with slavery but human beings. slavery was endored by the catholic church which is the spearhead of most religion. Astro, who do you think wrote the bible when it was written what relationship whites had with us and whom did we get the bible from friendly whites that loved us? Christanity is the deception that our ancestors spoke of and Jesus Is the primary deception of the world.
The slavemasters of old sowed the seed of racism, profiling, stereotyping, injustice, and hatred in their children of today towards the black man and woman. The slaves of old sowed the seed of mental slavery that can't be broken in many of us but the good thing that will come out of this is that slavery did not stamp out the seed in many of us true black africans that have the desire, ambition and goal of reparations to repatriate back from whence we were stolen and unify africa to a free and flourising state for all africans in the diaspora by way of the middle passage and I truly know that to be the wishes of our mother and father and for that to be the truth. I have nothing but love for you Astro. I am not the enemy, I am only here to condemn the lie and elevate the truth.

hotep

To acknowledge your reply and what seems to be a workable attitude, we can continue our discussion in a way that's preferrable to our getting along as men should. 11mitchell4 it's very easy to perceive negative energy in a discussion. Where you have varying points of view on matters people are emotionally involved in there's a potential for negativity to arise. A bit of negativity here and there can be provocative for deeper thought, a cattle prod so to speak to get people to think. I don't mind negativity, as long as it's motivating someone to think rather than comply with a faulty idea.

No doubt, if you are hardened in your concept of Blackness we will have areas where we will not disagree. The world won't end at that, I don't have to be in your tribe, observe your customs, trip like you do to be Black like you. Brother Sekhemu had the nerve to accuse me of not being Black because of my conversation. Is it that tough to be Black? It might not be a good idea for me to be what I am if I have to be just like everybody else feels I ought to be. The impression I get from some brothers is we are validated as Black people by what we believe, but what we observe, by what we think, etc., etc. I don't buy that idea, not at all. What's important to me, most of all, is being myself. I know there's the idea of if you don't know where you come from you don't know where you're going. I've got one myself, if you're looking backward for your glory you won't see where you are right now, much less know when tomorrow comes. If you want to look way way back to ancient civilizations to consider their achievements and mystery, fine. I'm very interested in ancient artifacts, history, etc. I feel no need to become entangled by the necessities of customs and traditions as if, somehow, the richness of my experience depends on these things.

I'm not a drone mentality, I cherish my individuality and the freedom to be myself. I have no need to be identified with anyone or anything that requires I be type cast. Each man enters the world, in most cases, only to wind up looking and acting like everybody else in his environment. That's not me, I think for myself, evaluate and exercise reason to know what fits my style, rather than being forced into a style or be made to feel guilty. That kind of stuff doesn't work with me. I don't have to think like anyone else, but myself to get along. You don't have to think like me, the one thing we all must do is deal with one another's take on what's true. I've heard folks in here making statements that are out in left field. You talk crazy, I'm going to confront you. If I talk crazy, you can confront me. In either case, if a debate arises, I'm going to come with substance, not some weak mantra like you don't think like a black person should. However I think is alright with me, as long as I can argue my points and support them with information people can easily confirm for themselves. I don't engage in discussions without having my ducks lined up. I don't communicate out of an empty pocket, I do not appreciate people trying to work me with empty slogans or name calling. We as Black people need to do better. I as a Black man will be tough on brothers who want to lead others while they are in still in the dark themselves. if you don't learn anything from me it wouldn't be worth it. I believe those who encounter me find there's something to what I have to say. I don't take baseless positions.

Anyway, it appears we can discuss things with a relative degree of sensibility. That's a good thing. Look for following posts regarding things written in your reply. I've got some things to say that are not in agreement, nevertheless, in our disagreeing my hope is somebody learns something in our exchange and that our lives will be made better for it. So, buckle up and get ready to take off, Astro can be quite a rocket to ride. I'll be getting back to you soon.

Astro..... :fight:


First of all with all due respect what I am saying is a lot more simpler than you are interpeting. But some people like to hear themselves talk verses getting understanding and recognizing truth. You talk is if there is no such thing as truth and you have to receiver from some other source other than your self to acknowledge it. My dear brother Astro my concept of African spirituality is you connecting with the univeral elements on a personal individual and personal level. In order to do this you must first know who you are and become fascinated and interested in the discovery of who you are and strive to elevate that which you find. Our Ancient African Nubian ancestors have left treasures of truths and answers to all therein and when others stumbled upon these treasures they shaped it and formed to fit themselve and their image and sold it to you and you bought it all in a very through and literal way with no question. Which is very sad because what they sold you was designed to enable you to acknowledge their treasures they left for you for your redemption and also the ability to recognize them within yourself. Sure we went through the middle passage for something and it wasn't to embrace the murders religion and land that whom kidnaped our mothers and fathers and sold them and treated them like animals. We went through the middle passage to establish ourselves as the priviledged ones that will take our mother and fathers land back to it's greatness with reparations and repartiate (exodus) back to our land as an independent nation-state of afro-descendants collecting our inheritance with an aim to unify Africa and to experinece real freedom which is something our parents nor us will ever experience here in america unless pharoh let God's people go. You see brother all these religions be it christanity, islam, etc. are all the teachings of our Ancient African ancestors so you and I need not to have differences about this issue because we have a connection my brother which is Roots. No black person can deny their roots. I believe no matter what kind of black you are be it Haitian, Jamaican, etc. we have common roots that is Africa. I'm not in any competition with you eventhough you're using that tone. If I said anything to offend you was not my intention, I just tell it from my point of view but I certainly respect yours. Furthermore, black people here in the diaspora has not conceptualized nothing on christanity they only mimic the other races, and take other races religions as there's when our ancestors left us a very profound theology of creation and God which all other religions is based on but yet we chose to continue in this slave mentality state of mind as if we never conceived or had an original thought
on this matter when it is our ancestors that had the first thought and conception of it all. Look how far we have fallen even to the point where a very intelligent minded person like your self don't have any knowledge of yourself and your greatness. Astro, if you take me speaking on the level and mind set of my African ancestors profound teachings as a negative slant than you really need to find your self because you are drowning and don't even know it but speak very well on the thing that is not of you not from you not about you which I call fanatical thinking. Our African Ancestor dealt in the concept of knowing not faith and believing for those concepts were created. only for a slave and they done an excellent job in selling it to people like yourself. You stated that christanity had nothing to do with slavery but human beings. slavery was endored by the catholic church which is the spearhead of most religion. Astro, who do you think wrote the bible when it was written what relationship whites had with us and whom did we get the bible from friendly whites that loved us? Christanity is the deception that our ancestors spoke of and Jesus Is the primary deception of the world.
The slavemasters of old sowed the seed of racism, profiling, stereotyping, injustice, and hatred in their children of today towards the black man and woman. The slaves of old sowed the seed of mental slavery that can't be broken in many of us but the good thing that will come out of this is that slavery did not stamp out the seed in many of us true black africans that have the desire, ambition and goal of reparations to repatriate back from whence we were stolen and unify africa to a free and flourising state for all africans in the diaspora by way of the middle passage and I truly know that to be the wishes of our mother and father and for that to be the truth. I have nothing but love for you Astro. I am not the enemy, I am only here to condemn the lie and elevate the truth.

hotep

As indicated I would be getting back to deal with aspects of your post that are needing to be addressed. Primarily, I view this as an exercise wherein you and others will have a better understanding of who I am and where I'm coming from. So, bit by bit I'm going to deal with the points in your witing that are most provocative for thought.

The first aspect of your writing catching my attention was the following statement,

"But some people like to hear themselves talk verses getting understanding and recognizing truth. You talk is if there is no such thing as truth and you have to receiver from some other source other than your self to acknowledge it. My dear brother Astro my concept of African spirituality is you connecting with the univeral elements on a personal individual and personal level. In order to do this you must first know who you are and become fascinated and interested in the discovery of who you are and strive to elevate that which you find."

Everybody has the "truth card" in their deck. However, in most instances when you call them on their claim what you'll find is they slip back into the shadows. I've mentioned having tangled with Sekhemu, who as you're speaking, spoke in the same terms. In his case he pooed pooed the idea of the devil existing. I called him on that statement, not to indicate I have means to prove the existence of an entity by that name, but to make plain there are plenty of evidences that demonic presences do exist. I cited famous cases that are well documented in this regard, along with a case of a woman being repeatedly assaulted in Los Angeles by a spectral entity. This entity manifest in a controlled experiment, the only time wherein a manifestation of a discarnate entity was recorded in a scientific investigation. I had personal contact with the principle investigator of the case, Dr. Elizabeth Cooley. I read the research paper, a book on the case and saw the feature film that chronicled the story for all to see. Sekhemu made the mistake of challenging me to produce proof for the existence of Satan, which no man can do. However, I did the next best thing, I cited cases as indicated that clearly document the fact mankind is being interacted with by discarnate beings who are evil in their purpose. That being the case, there is a viable possibility an entity named Satan does exist. I challenged Sekhemu and anyone else to refute the material or come up with something other than empty conversation to substantiate their points. Subsequent to my posts nothing else has happened in the string. No one has tried to handle my challenge. They can't.

On your point of people wanting to hear themselves talk, I do talk, however I speak in terms that have substance, as the last example indicated. In a forum where darkness abounds, much talk is sometimes required to peel someone's eyes open. This doesn't imply I have nothing to learn, only that when I speak I speak with the power of knowledge confirming my statements. And, as indicated, while Sekhemu was hot to attack me, he's been cold as a dead body on being confronted with my challenge. So, who's talking only to hear themselves?

On truth, truth is no man's possession nor is truth having any substance unless it can be verified. The areas I speak in I speak on the basis of factual information. Yet, you've got brothers in here who want to sell a story on truth without one ounce of reference material to support the discussion they're trying to impress me I should be listening to what they have to say. It doesn't work with me that way. You've got some truth, let's hear what you think I need to know. Whatever we discuss you better know I'll give you background information, the only one who's given some information with any meat on it in here has been Chief Osiris. I have my disagreements with him, but, at least in his replies he engineers responses I can relate to, even though I may not fully understand or agree. For instance, I readily admit I have no insights into third eye experience, I've confessed that with him, along with registering points I feel are wise in calibrating stuff on psychic experience. Chief Osiris engaged me in every area I brought to his attention on a level where I can say, at least he made a real effort to deal with the material not feelings or attitudes. I appreciate that about him. Sekhemu has no respect from me as a debater. I respect him as a man, which is due to every human being. So, if you have some truth you want to lay down you don't think I possess put it down, I've got eyes to read.

I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about when you say "You talk as if there is no such thing as truth and you have to receive from some other source other than yourself to acknowledge it." To be quite honest a statement like that is presumptuous at best. Only a fool would deny truth exists. I won't even get into that part of your writing because it's nonsense. On the point of having to receive truth from a source other than myself to acknowledge it, there is intuitive knowledge that is within and, from without is learning. Now, Chief Osiris indicates having a psychic insight on which his appreciation of truth or reality is based. Okay, that's Chief Osiris, everything I know about the world largely derives from observation, reading, education, talking with interesting and learned people, stuff like that. I also research, otherwise, as indicated with Sekhemu I would not have been able to cite some solid material anyone could look up to assess the efficacy of my views on the subject we were discussing. Now, how do you learn? Do you learn without referring to material outside yourself? Are you psychic like Chief Osiris, thereby claiming to have means to extract truth of reality through your third eye? How do you learn, please explain if it's not by absorbing material from the world around? I'm very interested in being informed, because I know of no other way but to open your eyes and ears to what's to be learned from sources outside yourself. If you have another method it would be something the whole world would want to know about. I know you don't, however you can make a statement and make yourself look foolish when the expression can't be applied to reality, which is an expression of the truth. Men learn by acceessing material outside of themselves, that is if they expect to be broad based in their knowing. There is intuition, yes and great discoveries based on intuition, sensing something could be improved or created. Sometimes, people have dreams that point to new learning, that sort of thing is very spotty and not reliable for any consistency in learning. The overwhelming majority of learning is accomplished by knowledge being passed down through reading, talking, etc. into the mind of the initiates into schools of learning. I'm not ashamed to say I get the bulk of my learning in that way.

Before I go any further in answering your reply, let's see what you have to say in regards to learning processes and the few other points I spoke of in this portion of writing. It's not that much, so you can identify what's relevant to our discussion and respond to my response. Don't disappear like Sekhemu. If you do, you'll leave Chief Osiris the only one having my respect as far as debating or discussing matters are concerned. I'll be looking for what you have to say about the points raised in this section of writing only. Depending on the quality of your response, I will continue. I first want to see how you handle what's on hand. That's not too much to ask, since I've done the work to set this discussion on a course where we can find where the substance is in our discussion. I'll be looking for your reply, for awhile at least.

Astro..........

o in an effort to

First of all with all due respect what I am saying is a lot more simpler than you are interpeting. But some people like to hear themselves talk verses getting understanding and recognizing truth. You talk is if there is no such thing as truth and you have to receiver from some other source other than your self to acknowledge it. My dear brother Astro my concept of African spirituality is you connecting with the univeral elements on a personal individual and personal level. In order to do this you must first know who you are and become fascinated and interested in the discovery of who you are and strive to elevate that which you find. Our Ancient African Nubian ancestors have left treasures of truths and answers to all therein and when others stumbled upon these treasures they shaped it and formed to fit themselve and their image and sold it to you and you bought it all in a very through and literal way with no question. Which is very sad because what they sold you was designed to enable you to acknowledge their treasures they left for you for your redemption and also the ability to recognize them within yourself. Sure we went through the middle passage for something and it wasn't to embrace the murders religion and land that whom kidnaped our mothers and fathers and sold them and treated them like animals. We went through the middle passage to establish ourselves as the priviledged ones that will take our mother and fathers land back to it's greatness with reparations and repartiate (exodus) back to our land as an independent nation-state of afro-descendants collecting our inheritance with an aim to unify Africa and to experinece real freedom which is something our parents nor us will ever experience here in america unless pharoh let God's people go. You see brother all these religions be it christanity, islam, etc. are all the teachings of our Ancient African ancestors so you and I need not to have differences about this issue because we have a connection my brother which is Roots. No black person can deny their roots. I believe no matter what kind of black you are be it Haitian, Jamaican, etc. we have common roots that is Africa. I'm not in any competition with you eventhough you're using that tone. If I said anything to offend you was not my intention, I just tell it from my point of view but I certainly respect yours. Furthermore, black people here in the diaspora has not conceptualized nothing on christanity they only mimic the other races, and take other races religions as there's when our ancestors left us a very profound theology of creation and God which all other religions is based on but yet we chose to continue in this slave mentality state of mind as if we never conceived or had an original thought
on this matter when it is our ancestors that had the first thought and conception of it all. Look how far we have fallen even to the point where a very intelligent minded person like your self don't have any knowledge of yourself and your greatness. Astro, if you take me speaking on the level and mind set of my African ancestors profound teachings as a negative slant than you really need to find your self because you are drowning and don't even know it but speak very well on the thing that is not of you not from you not about you which I call fanatical thinking. Our African Ancestor dealt in the concept of knowing not faith and believing for those concepts were created. only for a slave and they done an excellent job in selling it to people like yourself. You stated that christanity had nothing to do with slavery but human beings. slavery was endored by the catholic church which is the spearhead of most religion. Astro, who do you think wrote the bible when it was written what relationship whites had with us and whom did we get the bible from friendly whites that loved us? Christanity is the deception that our ancestors spoke of and Jesus Is the primary deception of the world.
The slavemasters of old sowed the seed of racism, profiling, stereotyping, injustice, and hatred in their children of today towards the black man and woman. The slaves of old sowed the seed of mental slavery that can't be broken in many of us but the good thing that will come out of this is that slavery did not stamp out the seed in many of us true black africans that have the desire, ambition and goal of reparations to repatriate back from whence we were stolen and unify africa to a free and flourising state for all africans in the diaspora by way of the middle passage and I truly know that to be the wishes of our mother and father and for that to be the truth. I have nothing but love for you Astro. I am not the enemy, I am only here to condemn the lie and elevate the truth.

hotep

Excuse me Brother Astro, could you break down in maybe one paragraph your answer to the brother's question? Peace.

Brother Astro ... i have not read all you've said in this thread, but that which i have read concerns me. You said ...


A bit of negativity here and there can be provocative for deeper thought, a cattle prod so to speak to get people to think. I don't mind negativity, as long as it's motivating someone to think rather than comply with a faulty idea.

We work very hard to keep negativity to a bare minimum in this community. I would appreciate if you'd help us toward that end.


... Brother Sekhemu had the nerve to accuse me of not being Black because of my conversation ...

... I've mentioned having tangled with Sekhemu, who as you're speaking, spoke in the same terms. In his case he pooed pooed the idea of the devil existing ...

... I challenged Sekhemu and anyone else to refute the material or come up with something other than empty conversation to substantiate their points ...

... And, as indicated, while Sekhemu was hot to attack me, he's been cold as a dead body on being confronted with my challenge ...

... Don't disappear like Sekhemu ...

I don't know if you realize, but Brother Sekhemu has not posted in this thread. If you were having a discussion with him in another thread, you should keep it there and refrain from "calling him out," in threads he's never responded to, and possibly never read.

You also said, "In a forum where darkness abounds, much talk is sometimes required to peel someone's eyes open." ... Are you talking of this forum? If so, you could not be more wrong. Darkness does not abound here. You seem determined to discuss satan, you justify negativity, you suggest that our Brother is as cold as a dead body ... and you say darkness abounds here?! If it does, perhaps you brought it with you?

Please respect our home, and all those who live here.

Thank You.

:heart:

Destee

You are indeed the voice that cries out from the wilderness of the Chambers of Holies of Holies, where Spiritual Secrets lies.

I truly hope that all you say will be hidden in the people hearts, and COLLECTVELY we can unite as one (Afrikan mind-set) and Arfika will once gain BE BORN AGAIN.

You are the leader for the Afrikans living in america/Afrika.

Afrika is for the Afrikans (HMG)

Goddess IsIs

Mother of ALL Goddesses
Goddess Of Afrika
Being The Change The World Needs To See
Spiritually Raw
IAmness with Thou
Energy, Power, Spirit

The Beauty of Being a Woman IS the Power to transform whenever SHE VIBE like It.

IAM that IAM
IAM Me. IAM Free

It is time to condemn the lie and elevate the truth.

We must cause trouble (with the truth) until our liberation!!!

Completely loving the Afrikan Carbon Nation.

I come. I share. Either accept or reject. The choice is yours. I move
on.

well said brutha as u reach the mental minds of others

In the beginning word was law, loyality to the God of creation, every knee shall kneal, and every tongue shall confess, who is God, and unto the beginning it shall return, under one nation the almighty supreme God, for every man shall be accountable under the constitution of Allah our God, in this darkness of the man man law, the blue print written in blood of our brother, as he as I , the true loyal servant of Allah, Brothers and Sisters of the loyal script shall bring his brothers and sisters out of darkness, and unto the blue print of truth, it shall not be hidden, in the name of the highest creator of all One love, One heart, One God.

Hoteph My Dear Beloved Sisters And Brothers:

Beloved, now to many of you, this subject immediately provoke the thought of
religion and it is appropriate for you to do so, because that is the way
your mind has so been trained to believe.

The US IN THE SUBJECT MATTER IS REFERRING TO THE CARBON NATION, Africans we
love to refer to ourselves as being.

The Lord mention here has nothing to do with Jesus nor the Christ, the
leading figure in the western world religious drama, a drama that has been
dramatically effective in transforming an entire Carbon Nation away from the
magic of the Truth, as it dance with only that which is real, supported by
the facts of metaphysic.

It is Time for you my Black Sisters and Brothers to Look once again, using
the inner vision to see that which is True and Real and when you are able to
do so you will know, at this Time, on this Planet and as I speak, there are
strange things taking place in the Universe, strange only to the sense of
perception, wrapped in the folly of religious belief.

Yet the Universe is now speaking with such fervor to the Carbon Nation and
we hear not. Speaking letting us know that the world is in a state of
destructive mode, destructive not in just a physical way but more
importantly in a body Soulful way.

The fact that Mankind has chose belief over the use of profound thought, is
what cause the Universe to now be in a cleansing mode, prepared to let loose
the Lord of the Elements upon those who have disobeyed its presence.

Well now, let us take a look at what the Lord really represent, it is
neither Jesus nor Civil, it is the Law of the Universe and now I say unto
you that the Lord is now upon us once again,requiring that we return back to
become obedient and respectful to the Lord of the Universe, which is the
Universal Law.

Lord = Law, the most cherished Fraternal Code within the annals of Masonic
secrecy, something the Carbon Nation did know, before the conversion to the
ignorance of Religious teaching.

No! I am not a member of any earthly Masonic order,just a by-product of the
Ancient Nubionic Mystery System as the Greeks so referred to such Profound
Teaching and Knowledge that was emanating from the wisdom of our Ancient
Carbon African Ancestors.

Yet you wonder why it is that I do not compromise the fact that our
Salvation is not to be experienced here in america, the other part of the
Diaspora, Europe nor Asia, as it is called today, but will be realized only
upon the Holy Ground of our Ancient Carbon African Ancestors and that ground
I speak of is known now as Africa.

We Children of the gods of Sirius by way of that planet now called Mars, we
have lost our way by the fact we abandon our True identity and now, our
every belief our every action is to see how we can force that which is evil
to accept us into their fold, not so my dear beloved, because you see, the
very people you are trying to fit into are the very people who know who you
really are and to allow you to taste Freedom, Justice and Independence would
be as if evil has submitted to becoming Just, peaceful and Respectful to the
Lord of the Universe.

Let those of you who are in the know about our Blackself, bear witness to
that which is True.

As I often say to you and you choose not to hear, Reparation is more than
political, nor is it ruled by Civil Law, Reparation is Divine and Spiritual
and is govern by the Lord (LAW) of the Universe AND WILL BECOME A REALITY
ONLY WHEN IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS IT HAS BEEN SO PROPHESIZED and that is the
Lord of the Universe must be obeyed, therefore, just as you were at the
beginning oh Carbon Nation, so shall it be once again.

We move not in a straight line but as the Universe, in cycle. Such a cycle
in relation to Reparation is thus so,that is, if we are to obey the Lord of
the Universe, which happen to be, Reparation = Repatriation = AfroDescendant
State = The Reunification of the Carbon African Nation and if this is
preaching Hate then yes my dear beloved, I am Rooted in it !!!

It Is Time To Condemn The Lie And Elevate The Truth!!!

Complete Love To The Carbon African Nation

Hoteph
Osiris
Chief Elder
African Spiritualist
Lecturer, Public Speaker


Let US Continue to Bring Forth the Truth and Bury the Lies!