The topic thread says it all:


Could Wilt Chamberlain lead the NBA in scoring today?

Would Dr. J have won the 2004 Dunk Contest?

Could Joe Louis beat Lennox Lewis?

Would Walter Payton lead the NFL in rushing during the 2003 season?

Could Hank Aaron have broken the home run record against today's MLB pitchers?

Would Jack Johnson be heavyweight champion today?

Could Satchel Page strike out batters like he did in the Negro Leagues?

How many blocked shots would Bill Russell have if he played today?

Could Oscar Robinson have averaged a triple double against today's NBA defense?

What old school greats could dominate the current greats? :argue:

Magic Johnson could come back and lead the league in assist because no one knows how to pass anymore (especially Kobe). Plus when he had the ball, he has total control of the game. Dr. J couldn't have won the slam dunk title 2004 though. You have to be really flashy nowadays to do it. Most dunks have been done already. Muhhammed Ali would beat Lenox Lewis no problem. He's way too smart for him and he has the power also. If Oscar Robinson averaged a triple double back in the day, he could do it now. There's no such thing as defense anymore except in Detroit now. Ben Wallace is the man. If I played ball, I'd want to ball like that guy, with a little more offense though. He's fun to watch play. Even though scoring is down in the NBA, it's not because of good defense. At least I wouldn't think it was. It seems like it's more from lack of knowing how to shoot the ball and everyone falling in love with the 3-point shot. I think Wilt could win the scoring title because he would still be able to dominate most teams. He'd have some problems with Shaq and maybe a little with Yao Ming, but for the most part there would be no one to stop him. I mean, if Shaq wanted to I think he could lead the league in scoring, if he got the touches that he should get. I think it's similar with Wilt. If you feed him the ball all game long, the points will come. :toast:

can wilt lead the league in scoring today .....yes but surely Iverson and in Jordan era
would have gave it a go as well Mike would have beaten him to a point but who knows
because the D is mush weaker today it's a run and gun type of game with him getting
the ball 90% of the time he can rack points up for sure yes he can !

could Dr.J win intodays contest .......yes his leap ability was awesome and the
style he use but up against M.Jordan from his era i have to say no because Jordan
not only had the leap but such great creativity in the air he would rule that area
but Dr.J can capture the crown and would have in 03...

could Joe beat Lennox , Joe was a great fighter but i would say no Lennox is too
much for Joe ......no he wouldn't have beat Lennox

would Walter Payton lead NFL in rushing in 2003 .....NO !
he was one of the all; time rushing greats in his era days
but today their are too many who can run the ball and move well
Payton would have had trouble with no line in front of him if he was still with the
Bears in 03 but he would have been close maybe the third or forth runner up

could Hank Arron slap as many out today to break the record aganist these pitchers
NO..... maybe in the low 50's most he would have hit if that many i think after
the year SOSA & McGwire went at it and Sosa finish with 66 and McGwire with 70
it was the record that would stand but Sir Bonds came in and made baseball history
with his record breaking 71 st blast this will stand if they stop using those boaster
drugs that is why McGwire beat Sammy out and also broke him down with back
problems that ended his career....No Hank couldn't break it .

would Jack Johnson be heavyweight champ today ........NO !
too much Lennox and a few others that would have took him down

could Page drop batters with strike out today as he did in the negro league
yes he was one powerhouse pitcher i think he would be a strikeout King today !

how many block shots would Bill Russell have if he played today
let me say the way they come inside the paint he would have racked up
more then Yoa Ming & Shaq & Morning put together he was a deep defender
shot blocker inside the paint is like no score if he was on the court
his total could be countless but very well up their.

Could the Big O" do it again the tripple double in today game ....YES !!
i think he could and more then once the defense is soft , weak and sleep
he would have ruled that as Magic did in his era

if you took old skool players the greats and sized them up to the new school
great players the Old skool would win hands down ....why ! because the run and
gun game wouldn't work with Russell, wilt, Big O" to name a few you wouldn't see
a game like 150+ points it would be a lower score game with the
OLD SKOOL on top these are true winners in heart the love for the game and
awesome basketball players ......my thoughts not saying i'm right by a long shot
to all this but this how i see it and feel peace

Hello Brothers Rich & Kente417Mojo:

I didn't clarify this early, so let me be more specific. For the sake of arguement, let us consider anything 1985 or earlier to be "old school". Also by all means, don't limit the old schoolers to my original list. I say this mainly in response to Kente's Magic Johnson topic. I fully agree that Magic could lead the NBA in assist today. However I don't consider him to be an old school player, because he was still playing (and playing well) until 1992, when his career was cut short because of HIV.

To address some of what has been said, I think Ali might very well have beaten Lennox Lewis, because of his speed, and just general boxing ability. However, I disagree that Ali had the power to knock Lennox out. This would be a boxing match...a chess match...and I don't see anyone beating Ali in that game. About Lennox and Joe Louis though, as great as Louis was Lennox is just too big & powerful for him.

About the NBA!!! I think the defense of today's guys is under-rated, especially now that the zone is allowed. The old-schoolers might not have the free pass in today's NBA as some people think. However, one advantage the old timers had over today's NBA stars is shooting accuracy. These guys today are terrible shooters. The "hot" shooters in today's NBA only shoot 50%. Old school hot shooters literally didn't miss when they were open, and they didn't have to shoot 30 times a night to score 20 points.

I think Wilt would have been a super player today, but Shaq would give him problems. In addition if he played in the 90s when Hakeem, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, and Alonzo Mourning were around, he'd have a lot of competition, not like in the 60s where he only had Russell, or the 70s where he only had Kareem Abul Jabar.

ok and my answers stand because JORDAN AND MAGIC JOHNSON ARE new schooler
just greats upon the greats

I would love to see Elgin Baylor in today's NBA

Michael Spinks against Roy Jones Jr. at Lt. Heavy

Matheew Saad Muhammed against Antonio Tarver

Jim Brown or OJ Simpson in today's NFL

Carlos Monzon against Bernard Hopkins

Earl Monroe in today's NBA

Hey, PanAfrica, this is the quintessential question of the ages, and though we're speculating here, I have to say that most of the great players in baseball's bygone eras could probably compete in today's game... I say that because, unlike football and basketball, where cats have gotten so much bigger, faster, and BLACKER(SMILE!), baseball size and speed has rarely mattered... Remember Freddy Patek of the Kansas City Royals, like 5-foot-4 guy who hit a few homeruns in his time???

Pan, do you remember Willis Reed, George McGinniss, Wesley Unseld, Darryl Dawkins, Nate Thurmond, Connie Hawkins, Julius Erving, George Gervin, Larry Kenon, Marvin Barnes, Walt Frazier, Dan Issel, Super John Williamson, Rick Barry, Brian Taylor, Willie Wise, Moses Malone, Zelmo Beatty, Bob Lanier, Lonnie Shelton, Gus and Ray Williams, and many more???(smile!) These guys are all 1970's(Pre-'85 guys)players, and there aint one in the bunch couldn't play in today's game... Every last one of them were pure physical specimens, cats who could play rough inside, cats who had good height, and guys who actually created the template around which the game is played today...

It was Connie and Julius who started the whole soaring to the basket for the thunderous dunk, or elegant little finger rolls... They both had the huge hands, and could show cats the ball, cup it, and then throw it down with such cataclysmic thunda! Later George McGinniss and Chocolate Thunder, himself, Darryl Dawkins, started to utilize brute force and gentle athleticism in a great versatile mix that presaged the Shaquille O'Neal's of the world... Captain Willis Reed, of the New York Knicks, played center on those championship teams of the '70's, but at 6-foot-9, he could not play center in today's game - nor for that matter could Bill Russel or Wesley Unseld(6-foot-7)... But those guys, Reed and Unseld, were such monsters, such physical specimens, with feathery jumpers, that they could EASILY compete, and dominate at power forward in today's game... Walt(Clyde)Frazier, at 6-foot-4 was one of the taller guards in the game at the time, and as a point guard he could play in today's game... If Gary Payton can play in today's game, so could Clyde, because Clyde was one of game's great defenders, and was a much, much better shooter and passer than The Glove... Plus Clyde had to Guard the Jerry West's and Oscar Robertson's of the World, as well as the man who'd later become his teammate, Earl "The PEARL" Monroe... True, Clyde had mad difficulty when it came to guarding ESPN's Freddy "MadDog" Carter, Kevin Porter, and the great Nate "Tiny" Archibald, because they were so mad quick, but put him on the big boys, cat's his size, and he was devastating! Ask Jerry West(hahaha!) 36 points, 18 assists, and 7 steals in the 7th game of the NBA Finals in 1970... I think that compares to Magic's 42 points, 20 rebounds, and 7 assists 8 years later...

Bruhman, I could go on interminably with the basketball, but I wont bore you with that... Moving over to Football, man, aint no way these 250-pound lineman of that era could compete with the Reggie White's and Bruce Smith's of the world - no freakin' kinda way!!!! I remember Reggie taking Tony Mandarich, that 300-pound all-world flop at Left tackle, and flinging him aside like he was a little boy, and I just shook my head, man... Imagine being so doggone strong you can take a cat who weighs 300-pounds, and with one hand you just erase the cat...

Reggie White was a nightmare for any offensive lineman who ever lived, man!!! He's the greatest lineman ever laced up a pair of cleats in my opinion, and I've seen quite a few players, including Deacon, Bruce, Bubba Smith, Bob Lilly, Alan Page, Carl Eller, Buck Buchannon, Curley Culp, Elvin Bethea, Ben Davidson, L.C. GreenWood, and Reggie's only competition at linemen, I think, Mean Joe Greene... Mean Joe, also, had that kind of crazy strength, quickness, and attitude that stands out in your mind... Whew, them cats was scary, man...

How can the old linebackers match up against L.T. in his prime????????(smile!) This guy was one of the meanest, fastest, biggest, scariest brothers at his position in the game's history... Fuggedaboutit!!!(smile!) He's the template for the Derrick Smith's(God Rest his Soul), Greg Lloyd's, and Ray Ray of the Ravens... I also dug Ray Ray's colleague Jamie(names are escaping me for some reason!), and my main, Derrick Brooks of the Tampa Bay Bucs... These cats are so big, and so freakin' fast that even the O.J.'s and Jim Brown's would not be able to run away from them... I don't dig O.J. as a person, but this guy was so big, fast, and elusive as player that he could compete in any era - no doubt... Same with Jimmy B., no question that at his size and speed, he would dominate just like he did in the 60's... If little cats like Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith and LaDamian can dominate as they do now, so could some big brothers, like Jim and Orenthal James - no doubt... Yo' there's no substitute for speed, and them cats had that in abundance... Combine the speed and the size, and you get Bo Jackson, who put that boy Bosworth in the hospital one Monday night.. Yo' Sun, you don't know Bo??? Now, ya know so-and-so!

Great Athletes are great athletes, but I think size and speed are tangible elements in determining whether a guy could compete in any era... Of course, ungodly talent is the other great determinant, as well... Could Isiah Thomas have competed in the '50's and '60's with his talent, or would his size have been a liability??? Absolutely a Rhetorical question, as it is for all of the above-mentioned cats, and a whole bunch a folks I didn't name whom I think would be stars in today's game... Only football, I think, is a sport where cats would have to come with real major changes in their speed and body structure to compete with these monsters today...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Brother Isaiah, thanks for not letting this thread die!! I agree that many of yesterday's sports greats could be great today. I practically back your entire post except one comment: Willis Reed might be able to play center today, even though he was only 6'9". After all Ben Wallace is the same height and he has led the NBA in blocked shots & rebounds (and just won the NBA title). Alonzo Mourning also was a fierce center despite being undersized. Of course Charles Barkley was a short power forward (listed as 6'6", but most players said he was only 6'4"), but outplayed everyone he was matched against.

It is ironic that this topic would come back up, because just last night I was watching a Larry Holmes interview on ESPN. He feels that no boxer today could have competed in the 80s. In particular he said Lennox Lewis would have been unknown in his era (which I feel is harsh, and untrue). Larry Holmes is truly one of the greats, and probably could be champion today. However he reigned in an era of soft competition. Much of the criticism he placed against Lennox was said of him 20 years ago. It is interesting how history repeats.

Let me list 3 sports greats who I don't think could compete in today's world:

1. Babe Ruth (Yankees)
2. George Michan (Lakers)
3. Rocky Marciano (Boxing)

I think all of these men benefitted from soft competition. In today's sports world they would be undersized and unable to dominate. They might be decent, but they wouldn't be legends.

wow! Isaiah, u really took me back bro! tht wuz an outstanding post, which took me far, far slong n a stroll through memory lane, sports wise.

i wasn't familiar w all the names u mentioned, but i was w most of them. i don't think i could rememba any1 u didn't mention. u really kno ur sports. thanks 4 that. :shades:

My good brothers PAN and ALKEBULAN, thanks for the bigup(smile!) I admit to being a bit of a sports nut, and an admirer of great athletes... Pan, I grew up with Mark Breland and Otis Wilson(Chicago Bears Linebacker), and worshipped Lloyd "World B." Free as a child when he was a star at Canarsie Highschool in Brooklyn... Some additional cats from the community were Vinnie "The Microwave" Johnson, Dwayne "Pearl" Washington, Willie Randolph James "Fly" Williams, Eddie Mustapha Muhammad, and Mike Tyson - Tyson being the only cat among the bunch whom i never met...

Pan, I guess you're on point with the Willis piece... If he could play center in the 1970's, against Kareem, Nate Thurmond, Wilt, Walter Bellamy, and Bob Lanier...clearly he would be competitive against the guys of today - all of whom aint Shaq(smile!) Ben Wallace reminds me a little of Clifford Ray - remember Cliff??? He was that ferocious looking brother with the beard, who played for the Bulls and Golden State when Golden State went all the way in '75... Which brings me to some greats I didn't mention who would have a dynamic impact in today's game, Artis Gilmore and Elvin "Big E" Hayes... Artis would give Shaq some headaches with his strength and defensive ability, I think...

A sport I didn't touch upon is boxing, and that's because it's such a skill sport, and the size of the fighters has remained static and consistent since inception... But I take skilled guys over sluggers, and skilled guys who could slug over them both... Having seen the ethereal Sugar Ray Robinson's fight films, I must agree with the pundits, who say Ray was the greatest of all-times... Pan, they talk about Marciano's 49-0 all-time record, but they don't tell you that Ray had 115 pro fights before he lost... There were a few draws in there, but I think he won 84 in a row before the first draw... His boxing skills were superb, in a word, SWEET, and that's why they called him SUGAR(smile!) I saw one fight where he hit Gene Fullmer with a short, quick hook coming out of a clinch, it simply separated the man from his senses... His instinct kept pulling him off the canvas, but he had zero legs to stand on... he stumbled into, and bounced off those ropes about 3 or 4 times, and the ref ended it... Yeah, it's always those short snapping punches that come outta nowhere that are the most devastating, huh???(smile!)

Ali, well...at 6-foot-3 and 212, the fastest man pound-for-pound who ever laced on gloves... In his prime, he would've toyed with just about everybody - and he did! The Ali fight I remember most is connected to a Supremes song from the late 1960's, Love Is Here(And Now You're Gone), because that is when he was in the news heavy, refusing to be inducted into the Armed Services of the United States... He was fighting Ernie Terrell, and Ernie was disrespectfully refusing to call him Ali... I remember how angry Ali was about that, and I am sure, the events surrounding his refusal to be inducted into the Army... At the Weigh-In, Ali called Terrell "the White Man's ******", something he would not ordinarly do to another Black man... And the fight...well, he was malevolent, asking Terrell after every devastating combo, "what's my name, Terrell, What's My Name???!!!" I remember the caption above the picture of Terrell in the next day's New York Daily News: The Eyes Of A Storm... It was said that Ali could've disposed of the guy in about 3 or 4 rounds, but maliciously punished him for his lack of respect... I connect the song, because a few days thereafter, Ali was stripped of his crown, and an 8-year old kid became a fan for life... Ali was teaching us all what it is to stand tall and proud for your convictions, even in the face of persecution... Believe that my family members all made THAT clear to me(smile!)

I know I'm going off, brothers, but I'm on a roll, now(SMILE!~)... I believe Ali the greatest African American Athlete we've ever produced in this country, besides Jackie Robinson... I say that because they stood for something beyond the arena of Sports... Arthur Ashe, Jim Brown, Bill Russell, and Kareem, I also place in those categories, and Ervin Johnson is writting a great chapter with his establishing of businesses in African communities... God Bless You Ervin, you've always been my man, brother!!!

Meanwhile, these cats like Jordan...they're a disgrace!!! and I am gone end it there(smile!) Venus and Serena, OMG, they just so fine and juicee... Ahm out, yo!

Peace!
Isaiah

Another thing about the "great" Rocky Marciano:

Although he retired with a perfect 49-0 record, he was 43-0 when he won the title. In other words he only had 6 title defenses. 4 of those defenses where against aging black fighters: a 36+ year old Jersey Joe Walcott; 2 fights against Ezzard Charles (a middleweight/light Hvy, who was also in his 30s); and a 40+ year old Archie Moore. Despite their ages and diminished skills all of these fighters gave Marciano all he could handle. Rocky's remaining two defenses were against none descript white fighters.

Retiring undefeated does not always mean someone is great. In many cases it means they had soft competition, and just knew when to quit (which is something most boxers don't know when to do). The rumors about Rocky Marciano is that he quit because he didn't want to face an upcoming Floyd Patterson, or Charles Sonny Liston. Still he does deserve props for being the only heavyweight champ to retire undefeated. However his record of 6 title defenses pails in comparision to Joe Louis' 25 title defenses over 12 years; Larry Holmes 20 title defenses over 7 years, Muhammed Ali's 9 title defenses in 4 years (before he was stripped for not fighting in Vietnam), and his 10 title defenses (after he regained the title from George Foreman in 1974); Mike Tyson's 10 title defenses over 4 years, and Lennox Lewis' 9 title defenses over 4 years.

Yeah, Pan, and you can rest assured that were Marciano a Black Man, those factors would be trotted out front and center to diminish his accomplishments(smile!)

We see that kind of micro-analysis when it comes to breaking down Henry Aaron's homerun record, and now that Barry Bonds is chasing it, we are seeing him come under suspicion for steroid use(smile!) That's their outright attempt to tarnish and smear his accomplishments...

For years we have heard of how Joe Louis would knock out Muhammad Ali, though I think Jack Johnson would've had a better chance of doing that, as he was a tremendous boxer... Well, we know why they don't promote Jack as the great champion that he was, and it aint because they love Joe Louis so(smile!) As Langston Hughes character Simple would say, "the ways of White folks."

In truth, Larry Holmes would've demolished a Rocky Marciano... In fact, a young Jersey Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles, would've handled Marciano... But like you said, they were much older than he, and Charles was a great Light-Heavy Champion... Forget Archie Moore in his Boxing prime against Marciano... He would've frustrated him into a TKO easily... Dirty Mike, Michael Spinks would, also, destroy Marciano, in my opinion - one good elbow to his jaw, and that would've ended it(smile!)

I'd have liked to see Sugar Ray Leonard or Hearns against Hopkins or Roy Jones... Wilfredo Benitez against Hopkins, Hagler against Roy Jones... Pan, I think the late 1970's and early 1980's produced some of the great fights and fighters of all time, man... I aint the boxing fanatic you are, but I remember the above-mentioned cats, and a few more, like Aaron Pryor, Alexis Arguello, Hilmer Kenty, Donald Curry, Dwight Qawi(Braxton), Victor Galindez, Wilfredo Gomez, Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson, Hector Camacho, and Eddie Mustapha Muhammad... Whew, these cats had some wars between them...(smile!)

Peace!
Zeke

Calling me a boxing fanatic would be an understatement Isaiah. I probably have 75 videos of boxing matches (some dating back to the 1940s). Although based on your comments, you have quite a bit of boxing knowledge yourself. Indeed you present some interesting matchups:

1. Larry Holmes vs. Rocky Marcaino-I pick Holmes, too much skills, would have kept Rocky at the end of his jab all night.

2. Jack Johnson vs. Muhammed Ali-I pick Ali.

3. Muhammed Ali vs. Joe Louis-I again pick Ali, he was too big for Joe, and had a good chin. Joe could be outboxed, and few heavyweights had the boxing skills of Ali.

4. Sugar Ray Robinson vs. any welterweight-I pick Sugar Ray.

5. Roy Jones vs Sugar Ray Leonard-Toss up (although Jones is the bigger man).

6. Roy Jones vs Thomas Hearns-hmmm...I think I'll go with the "Hit Man".

7. Hopkins vs. Benetiz-Hopkins is too big, he'd take this one.

8. Aaron "The Hawk" Pryor vs. any current welterweight-The Hawk

9. Azumah "The Professor" Nelson vs. any current featherweight-The Professor

10. Dwight Muhammed Qawi vs Antonio Tarver-Qawi

11. Eddie Mustafa Muhammed vs. Roy Jones-Roy Jones

12. Hector Camacho-I was never impressed with him, I think a lot of today's fighters could take him.

13. Jack Dempsey vs Mike Tyson-Tyson

The match-ups are endless!! :toast:

Yes, Brother Pan, but my enthusiasm for the sport waned a great deal with the deaths and paralyzations of a few fighters in the 80's and early 90's... Additional stuff, like seeing Ali's condition, hearing the slurred speech of Iran Barkley, Hitman, and Sugar Ray Leonard, just made my a little queasy about things(smile!)

I guess that's why, initially, I didn't touch on the sport... Hey, even football turned me off a piece after seeing that horrible incident that happened to Napoleon McCallum in a monday night game some years ago... I didn't see the Joe Theisman incident in '86 against the Giants, but the replays were mad grisly... Dont' get me wrong... I'm a guy who worked in a hospital, and saw a lotta gore, but the venue was tailor-made, and prepared me psychologically for what I saw, including death...

Maybe that's why I've gravitated toward basketball more in the last 25 years, or so... I always loved the beauty and athleticism of the game, and Magic and Bird and Isiah and Michael made the game so easy on the eyes and mind... Having said all of that, though, I do remember being highly impressed with Pryor-Arguello, Leonard-Hearns-Duran-Hagler bouts, and deeply admired the great Salvador Sanchez, who died so suddenly, ending what would've been a great career... The '70's and '80's I must say, produced some of the great fighters of all-time... Legends, for all intents and purposes...

Haven't seen even one Hopkins fight yet, Pan - not ONE!(smile!) But I was impressed when he destroyed Tito Trinidad, whom I knew to be an excellent fighter... My friends told me he made him look like a schoolboy fighting his teacher... I remember how Hopkins had trash-talked the guy, bringing him some rice and beans for his last meal, and I was, like, this guy is gonna get killed - before the damned fight!(smile!) Well, I think he kinda intimidated Tito with all of his bravado... Be interesting to see him take on Roy, but...maybe a Hopkins-Tito rematch to avenge those nasty remarks brother made against his brother prior to that last fight(smile!) Well, that's another story, aint it???(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Boxing...............

Lennox Lewis could not beat half of the cats from the 70 or 80 era He is a paper champ, I mean who has he faught? A old Tyson? A Bar Room Fighter from Baltimore Md who Knocke hid the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggg out? He has not proved himself in my eyes. Does anyone think he would beat Ali? A Young Forman? or even Homes or even a Tyson in his prime!

Sugar Ray Lenoard.. could do damage aginst anyone in his class
Hit Man........ He didn't have that nick name 4 nothing theese catsa hav estudied theese fighters yes but to fight them in theis prime would be the real lesson taught to them today!

Foot Ball..............

Reggiw White..... (Philly) In his day it is true nobody could stop him and I dont see anyone in thismleague who could do it now! Dap'z on that one Isaiah!
O.J........... This cat was fast and strong he would be a leader in the nfl today
Walter Payton.... His ability to punnisg the D-fence and run would make him a Pro Bow player indeed
Deacon Jones was all about business but with the rules of todays NFL he would not be the same now u take theese sissy players of today to his era and there is no contest he would kill them all.
BNruce Smith... He would still be killing QB's today nobody got away from that cat.
LT... This is what Linebackers are made of he is what all LB's want to be on the field (lol) not off. This is why u have cats like Derrick Thomas (loved that cat RIP) Derrick Brooks ( a beast) Peter Bowlware and Ray Lewis but I think Ray Lweis is more of the Mike Singeltary / Junior Seau proto type.
Bo Jackson if not 4 his hip the record books would be a different place now!
Bo Knows Football yall and Bo would smoke you and Grind ya to the dirt.
Ronnie Lott was a recievers nightmare (ooohhh he could hit)
JIM BROWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO I HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING ASBOUT THIS CAT?


Basketball...................

Magis Johnson could compete and dominate today because when he has the ball he controls the whole game.
Wilt Chamberlin wopuld give Shaq fits down low and in my book come out on top because he is a better shot blocker and more mobile even though if Shaq is in shape he is as fast as the best of them.
Larry Bird come on now even though he was not the strongest, or fasest player he was smart and talented leave him a glimps of the basket and u will be going home with a loss.
Earl "the pearl" Monroe, Bob Macadoo, Daryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins, Dr J, Sleepy Floyd, Jerry West, Kareem Abdule jabbar and a list of others were greats because they were special (gifter with Game) They would be be leaders in todays game
In Defence of todays game you have to realive players are faster and stronger and Bigger most of the players who played center were like 6'9" or 6'10" and todays Power Fowards are tall like 7' and can move like a shooting guard so there would be match problems here. The D- is still good in the NBA but the shooting is not because everyone is worried themselves and how the look and how many shots do they get and how much time do they play. So if they want to win 4 real look at what the Pistons did to my Lakers!

Baseball I wont touch to much but the guys of yesterday didnt face pitchers like TRhe Big Unit or Roger Clemmons

Ok My 2cents are in and im out 4 the time being.

I also think Lennox Lewis would struggle against the heavyweights of the 1970s (regarded by boxing experts as the best in boxing history) with such fighters as Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, and a young Larry Holmes. However Lennox definately wasn't a paper champion, as he beat Evander Holyfield for the legit title of undisputed champ. In addition I highly doubt that Lennox would have struggled against the heavys of the 1980s (regarded by boxing experts as the worst in boxing history). The only champ from this era who I see beating Lennox is a prime Larry Holmes (who I think would probably beat everyone except a prime Ali). The other fighters from this era: Mike Weaver, Frank Tate, Michael Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, James Boncrusher Smith, Greg Page, Tony Tubbs, Trevor Berbick...all of these guys are extremely beatable for Lennox Lewis.

About the last 80s fighter you listed: Mike Tyson. I know Mike gets much love from the fringe boxing fan, but I think he is the most over-rated fighter in boxing history. Tyson had extremely soft competition as a contender, and as a champion. He fought no highly ranked opponents as a contender, and won his 1st title in 1986 against an aging 30+ Trevor Berbick (who was never that great to begin with). Mike won his 2nd title in 1987 against James Smith, another 30+ fighter, that wasn't good to begin with. Indeed to give an indication of their mediocracy, both guys lost in their 1st title defense. Tyson's 3rd title came against Tony Tucker, who was a young lion at that time. This victory was Tyson's best win as champ. In 3 years as champ, Mike defended against: Pinklon Thomas, Tyrell Briggs, Tony Tubbs, a mid-30s Larry Holmes (who hadn't fought in 3 years), Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks (Tyson's biggest named opponent, but only 30+, who hadn't fought in 2 years), and Carl Williams. An impressive list, this is not!!

There was a vicious up and coming contender during Mike's 1st title reign named, Evander Holyfield, who Mike avoided like the plague. Evander was the #1 contender for 2 years, and Mike simply refused to fight him. In fact the 3 belts threatened to strip Tyson of his titles if he continued to avoid Holyfield, so the fight was eventually set up. However Tyson fought one more fight against Buster Douglas, and we all know what happened there. Holyfield & Tyson would eventually met 5 years later, and what happened in that fights was the same thing I thought would have happened in 1990-91 (a Holyfield TKO). Throughout Tyson's career, he has avoided serious competition (when he was champ). I also have to point out that Tyson and Lennox were suppose to originally fight in 1996, and Tyson paid Lennox $4 million not to fight. Why? Because Lennox was a bigger risk than a now aging Holyfield. Again Tyson would met Lennox 6 years later with the result being the same way I originally predicted (a Lennox Lewis KO). It is hard for the causal fan to acknowledge, but Tyson was never that great! :hot:

Shaq vs Wilt:

I'm not so sure Wilt would win this match-up. If we look at their numbers, Wilt is a no brainer. I mean he is the only player to ever score 100 points in a game. In his second season he averaged 50 points, and 20 boards (which is absolutely sick)! Even though the 60s belonged to Bill Russell and the Celtics...Wilt was the most dominate player in the league hands down. All this being said, I can't help but notice the era in which Wilt accomplished these incredible achievements. Wilt was 7'1" and 290lbs! He was far and away the biggest player in basketball at that time, and the closest centers were only 6'10" (many weren't even that big).

Wilt was quite literally a man playing against boys in the 1960s. As a result, I think his dominance was solely because of his physical advantage (his size). One thing in particular makes me believe this. I remember an interview with Wilt in which he said Lou Alcinder (Kareem Abdul Jabar) was the 1st player he ever faced, who gave him trouble. Specifically he said he needed help guarding him. Considering that Kareem is also one of the greatest players in NBA history, this isn't an earth shattering statement. However besides Kareems greatness, I also realized that what made Kareem different than any other center that Wilt faces was his height. At 7'1" Kareem was just as big as Wilt was. For the 1st time Wilt was "picking on a man his size", and he had trouble doing so.

With this in consideration, I think we have to really consider what would happen if Shaq & Wilt faced off. Both players were horrible free throw shooters, so that is a wash. Both players make their home in the paint (and can't make a 20 footer to save their lives). This would be a battle of fighting for position...baby hooks...dunks...I'm not sure either player has an advantage over the other. However I will say this: Although Wilt was the strongest player in the NBA during his era, I would bet that Shaq is the stronger of the two, because athletes today are stronger in general. In addition, Shaq is used to playing against centers his size, and bigger (which I already demonstrated Wilt was not). The only clear advantage Wilt has over Shaq is conditioning, but I still lean towards Shaq in this match-up. If only I had a time machine!!

wilt was great for his size and what he faced back then but today he would
have a hard time up against centers like the shaq's and others surely he could
never had scored 100 in the game today Shaq would ware him down and over
power him to a point under the basket i agree with pan here on this .

You would know even better than I would Rich, as you've been watching basketball for longer than I have. I'll also say this...Wilt slowed down considerably as he aged (moreso than Shaq has), and as players got better in the 1970s. We have to consider the era that people played, and the competition they faced...not just their stat sheets.

Caramel, thanks for the correction on Derrick THOMAS, my brother(smile!) I was having Senioritis that day, for real(smile!) BTW, I agreed on most everything you said in that piece... Right on point!!! And yeah, rest in eternal peace, Derrick Thomas, you were one bad@ssed man!

Pan, Wilton Norman Chamberlain was a superb athlete, who entertained the idea of playing in the league when he was 50 years old... Glad he didn't do it, but to look at the man... Made ya go, hmmmm(smile!) I agree, Shaq is...well, I think Al McGuire used to refer to centers as the AirCraftCarriers... Shaq is the largest of the large, and the most dominating player in league history - on the physical tip... I think Jordan was the most dominant player ever as regards sheer talent, and all around ability...
Shaq would best Wilt, but not dominate him to the point of making him appear ordinary... Wilt was too good for that, and too intelligent... BTW, Kareem was actually 7'4" inches tall, and possessed the most unstoppable shot in league history... Once Kareem put that ball above his head from the foul line in, it was money in da bank... Beautiful, elegant, accurate, money...

Yao Ming is tremendous, but unless he developes that chip on his shoulders that makes Black players so much better than European players, he will just be great to watch, but never reach the fullness of his potential... Shaquille is not just big and talented, but the brother plays with attitude, with full confidence in his abilities... Whoever heard of hack-a-Wilt back in the day - even though Wilt was just as terrible as Shaq is from the foul line??? Teams actually are out there trying to physically hurt this man to limit his dominance... That says it all... Imagine if the "Jordan Rules" were applied to Michael by every team, every night during his era? He wouldn't have lasted 16 years in the league, no way...

I think Shaq would've found Kareem to be just as much a pain as Wilt did, because of the Sky Hook, because of Kareem's mobility, his ability to dribble, his ability to shoot the jump shot when he had to... Granted, Kareem would not have been able to guard Shaq, but who can, who has??? Shaq, even in his youth, had major defensive problems with Patrick, with Hakeem, and Robinson... All three had good outside games, and Hakeem had a zillion beautiful post moves, and cat quickness... That's how Houston swept Orlando back in '95... Too much of the Dream...

Fellas, I know there's a thread dedicated to TEAMS, but I'm feeling lazy enough to address it here...(smile!) Listen, you cats seem to be in agreement that the Bulls 72-win season made them The Greatest Team of All-Time(NBA) Guys, I gotta disagree... I cannot see how that team would've handled either the Lakers or Celtics of the '80's... Too much talent and firepower - and competition from each other, as well as, the Pistons and Sixers... Even the Hawks of the '80's boasted, at one time, Dominique, Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, Kevin Willis, Dan Roundfield, and Tree Rollins on their front line!!! Granted, Antoine and Cliff were young puppies at the time, but why this team didn't do better around playoff time with that kind of talent I don't know...

But that Celtics frontline would've demolished the Bulls frontline - and so would the Lakers, who had KAREEM, McAdoo, Mychal Thompson, Orlando Woolridge, Michael Cooper, and Mo Lucas on his last legs... I don't really believe the Bulls had the talent to deal with all of that, and benefitted from a much weaker league during their run... The '83 Sixers??? Maybe the Bulls could've competed with that team, but...even they would've given the Bulls fits...

In the NFL, I thought the 1970's Pittsburgh Steelers were the best football team I've ever seen... I thought they had a strange combination of power and finesse I've yet to see since... They were brutal and downright dirty when they had to be, and pretty and elegant and high-flying when they had to be... They had hall of famers at QB, RB, and Both WR positions, and about 6 or 7 of their guys on defense are in the HOF... When they failed to win Super Bowl titles in that era, people were genuinely shocked, because they were talented, they executed, and played like a street gang... Their games against the Oakland Raiders were like the Cowboy/Niner games of the 90's - National Television Specials, and those teams always put on a vicious and violent show(smile!) Chuck Knoll once had the nerve to say that Jack Tatum and George Atkinson, the Raider safties, were "part of the criminal element in the NFL", and everybody's eyebrows were raised by that...in laughter(smile!) His guys were the clothesliningest, most intimidating group the game has ever seen... The '85 Bears came close, but one championship can't compare... Same with the Ravens... The Niners, I think, come in a close second to those Steeler Teams...

Baseball, well, everybody says the Yankees, but I think those early '70's Oakland A's teams were pretty damned good, too.. Clearly, their reign as champions was short(3 years)but they were exciting, and like all champions, they knew how to win games... The Big Red Machine crushed the Yankees in 1976, but their reign was even shorter... Beyond that, well, I gotta give it to the Yankees(no brainer) Yo, as always, nice kickin' it with you cats!!!(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Fellas, I know there's a thread dedicated to TEAMS, but I'm feeling lazy enough to address it here...(smile!) Listen, you cats seem to be in agreement that the Bulls 72-win season made them The Greatest Team of All-Time(NBA) Guys, I gotta disagree... I cannot see how that team would've handled either the Lakers or Celtics of the '80's... Too much talent and firepower - and competition from each other, as well as, the Pistons and SixersBut that Celtics frontline would've demolished the Bulls frontline - and so would the Lakers, who had KAREEM, McAdoo, Mychal Thompson, Orlando Woolridge, Michael Cooper, and Mo Lucas on his last legs... I don't really believe the Bulls had the talent to deal with all of that, and benefitted from a much weaker league during their run... The '83 Sixers??? Maybe the Bulls could've competed with that team, but...even they would've given the Bulls fits

I think the best Bulls team was the 1991 squad, not the 1996 record setting team. I would matchup the 91 Bulls against any team in NBA history, and be confident of the results. I certainly wouldn't fear the Celtics, nor the Pistons (who the Bulls knocked out to advance to the Finals). Although I can see some of the Lakers teams giving them problems, I also like the Bulls chances in that matchup. After all the Bulls beat a Magic Johnson lead Lakers for their 1st title. Granted Kareem was no longer with the club, but a Laker team that was good enough to advance to the finals (past Portland no less), has to be given full credit.

Brother Pan, Pippen, Grant, Levingston, Cartwright, Stacy(forget the brother's last name!)Vs. Bird, Parrish, McKale, Walton, and Cedric Maxwell... Throw in M.L. Carr and Scott Wedman in that mix, and I doubt the Bulls even of '91 would be able to hang out with all of that... That's 4 to 1 in 50 greatest players of all-time...

As for the Lakers of 1991, they featured Magic and Worthy not at the top of their games, as each was in their 30's by then, and Magic was actually diagnosed witht the virus following that season... Instead of Kareem, they had Eldon Campbell... Instead of Mychal Thompson, Mo Lucas, McAdoo, and Michael Cooper(for Jordan), they had Sam Perkins, Tony Campbell, and....who??? I would most certainly NOT put that squad in the same category with the Laker dynasty of the '80's... One more very important element was the coaching of that team: Mike Dunleavy Vs. Pat Riley... A year later, with Riley as coach of the Knicks, they took the big bad Bulls to 7 games... That Knicks team had Patrick Ewing and zip, so what might have been his impact with a more talented, battle-tested Laker team in that final? Remember, now, at that point in their careers, Pat Riley had won 4 NBA titles to Phil Jackson's 0... Big difference in experience, my good brother...(smile!)

It's all speculation, but I think the Bulls benefitted from a far weaker league... Expansion teams, such as Charlotte, Miami, Orlando, and Minnesota, the latter 3 all in the Eastern Conference of the NBA did nothing to make life more competitive for them, and, of course, the great Pistons, Celtics, and Laker teams of the '80's had waned in their glory... The Bulls seized that moment in history to go on their run of championships, but who was their competition in the 1990's??? Did they have a rival to compare with those three monsters of the 1980's??? Would their competition in the '90's compare to any one of those great teams of the 1980's at their peak... I dare say, NOT!(smile!)

Sure, we can say that the Bulls were a great team in their time, but we must temper that much in the same way that we would, say, the reign of Larry Holmes as Champion in his time... It was not what it was to be Champion in Ali and Frazier's time... When you've got a superior rival hovering in your picture, challenging you to be great for all times, its a different set of circumstances... That's why those Laker-Celtics championship series carry such mystique, and so do their 2 matchups with the Pistons... Yeah, the Bulls met the Utah Jazz twice in succession in the '90's, but did anyone dare think those guys were in the Bulls class???(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

I have to say The Lakers was a very talented team in the 80's but the core
of the 91 BULLS would have proven their true core that was the best team the
BULLS ever had these was players on guts and glory in their route to the best
record of 72 wins also was good and very talented but also a show case by this
time M.J and pip had this team running and Rodman controling boards in 91 with
Jordan , Pippen , Grant, B.J , Paxton, cartwright and cast would have withstand
any core of the Lakers and Boston , now with Magic , Worthy , Kareem was the
depth of L.A i dare say that in each era where teams rule was in a class of their
own surely matching them all up i truely think the BULLS would have stood strong
against any of them what they learn was how to clamp down on teams and think
the BULLS didn't have raw talent like the Lakers and Boston had and they still
rose to the top of the game and best record ever in their championship runs
and i agree with Phil Jackson (quote) if M.Jordan would have kept playing and
didn't retire they would have won 8 titles
Boston & L.A was full of talent and great player -vs- the Bulls great chemistry
defense and ofensive out burst I can't take nothing away from these teams
and the Piston Bad Boys was the hill and team that made these BULLS become
what they was I would say the BULLS 90's -VS-Lakers 80's could have been
very very tight seeing both coming out win some lose some thing i give them
the even thumb ups over Boston but set the BULLS above by the feat of best
recored ever breaking the Lakers record setting of 69 wins

Awight, Rich and Pan, I notice that both of you cats are from the Big Windy, so objectivity aint even part of the program(LOL!) Still, you must admit that the Bulls played in a much weaker league than the Celtics and Lakers did, and by the time they went on their run, most of the greats of the '80's had done gone and retired from the game... Remember, the Bulls had Jordan, Grant, Pippen, Paxsson, and Cartwright together in 1987-88, no??? Check the rosters back then(smile!) But they were nowhere near the Championship picture among the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers... That was when Scotty would get those headaches thinkin' 'bout the Pistons... Think about it, now...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

that was doing the time where this BULLS team was beginning to mold
into a chemistry of there own from the hard times they had with the pistons
but once they jell together this team prove that was one of the elite teams
in history as they started the quest on the way the BULLS also took it up a notch
and made history if mike had not retired they would have controled and won 8
i really think that each team in their era was unique we can dis credit the BULLS
now when the Lakers was running they was the force of the league for years
no matter what team mix players they was no match i'll still say this BULLS team
of 1991 would have made the Lakers look and think again surely would have won
a few but i do say the Bulls are one of the best teams ever put together and top
three but i say i give each of these three teams the same respect ,
anyway doing that time the Bulls only had M.J scotty & Grant was learning
Bulls would have slam BOSTON the only team i think and bout know whould have
gave the Bulls any trouble is the Lakers any other so call great team would get
spanked i look at each ERA differently but to match them up in a -Vs- the Bulls
would have been better of the three this team had explosive power ,tri- defense
great chemistry they jell and knew what it took to win the close one's and how to
destory a team with great domination they had depth with really one true superstar
look at the reast and the great players that was together to make the team forces
yep by Far (Da Bulls)
but i hear you and feel what you saying just can't let you dis-Credit CHICAGO !

Awight, Rich and Pan, I notice that both of you cats are from the Big Windy, so objectivity aint even part of the program(LOL!) Still, you must admit that the Bulls played in a much weaker league than the Celtics and Lakers did, and by the time they went on their run, most of the greats of the '80's had done gone and retired from the game... Remember, the Bulls had Jordan, Grant, Pippen, Paxsson, and Cartwright together in 1987-88, no??? Check the rosters back then(smile!) But they were nowhere near the Championship picture among the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers... That was when Scotty would get those headaches thinkin' 'bout the Pistons... Think about it, now...(smile!)

I admit I am from Chicago and a Bulls fan since I was a youngin. However I don't believe the league in the 90's was weaker than in the 80s. I mean sure the 80s had the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and 76ers (in the early 80s)...besides these 4 teams, who else was there? Who exactly would make the 90s players thankful that they weren't born sooner? Many of the Laker's titles came against different teams, they didn't play the Celtics every year. The Pistons only had a 2 year ride to the top, and were dethroned by my Bulls. Yes Scottie Pippen had a headache against the Pistons...but Isiah had that stolen pass against the Celtics. Dr. J & the 76ers had "we owe you one" for 4 years before they finally one in 1983. When Pippen, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, and of course Jordan were put together they dominated pretty quickly. I'm afraid you haven't proven that this dominace was a result of weak competition (especially considering they beat 2 of the teams you are comparing them with). :teach: