I am truly seeking a better understanding of something. Last weekend I was watching the Discovery Channel which was airing programs about Egypt. The stories were about Egyptian mummies that have been uncovered along with other types of things that were buried in the Pyramids. Many of the museums that hold these precious and priceless artifacts are located in Europe as a result of archeologists from those countries and their research going to Egypt to reveal its secrets to them. As I listened to the stories I felt that these other countries were violating something sacred and, although the information was quite interesting, they had no right to do that.

How is it possible that these 'foreign' countries can gain access and control over Egypt's property? Does Egypt sell them the rights to it or what? How does this work?

>Hello NNQueen.

Most of the artifacts held by foreign countries were taken during a period when Egyptology was a solely European interest. Many of what was taken is small compared to that which was pilfered by the locals over hundreds of years, hence the reason most tombs are empty when found. King Tuts tomb was significant in that its treasures were intact not for its grandeur or its greater importance in Egyptian history compared to others. The argument by those who hold such treasures is that at this time there were no facilities nor local organizations capable of protecting nor storing these often delicate finds. Almost all was taken by the countries financing the excavations. Today no items are allowed out of Egypt, and if they are they remain the property of Egypt. There have been a few cases in recent history where items have been removed from Egypt without consent, the bust of Nefertiti being one, which is now in Germany.

Today there have been calls for the return of all removed artifacts to Egypt, which in a number of cases this in fact has happened. Mummies have been returned only in the last few months to the Egyptian authorities. The Argument now is, and it is expressed from both within the Egyptian Egyptology society as well as the countries holding then, that if it is all returned how could the average person appreciate the greatness of Egypt if they could not, like most of us, afford to go see it in Egypt. Regardless of the reasons, to which I feel there would be more than the fare share using this as and excuse to keep them, it does in some ways make a good point. I feel Egypt should be there for all, and I heard one compromise suggested that made perfect sense. This was, all artifacts should be the property of Egypt and its people, the items in countries other than Egypt could display and keep on "loan" only the artifacts. This would unfortunately give Egypt the power to remove anything they saw fit.

It should be pointed out that much of the science that is used and money given to support the salvation of many artifacts held in Egypt itself have been provided by other countries. The Cairo Museum has many problems still in the maintenance of artifacts, a percentage have perished because of insufficient facilities. This is also another reason Cairo expects financial support from countries involved in excavations.

The bottom line is, it would be nice to see all returned to Egypt, however it would become out of the average persons reach to ever have contact with such wonderful artifacts, and Egypt by no means has the capability at present to preserve them all.

Unfortunately Dr Hawass the head of Egyptology in Egypt is not a very popular man, and the trust to hand over everything is just not there, so i would not consider it possible for it to happen at present.

Peace Sister NNQueen :bowdown:,

I think, the even deeper question is, who in Egypt has the right to claim providence over these sacred artifacts. Egypt is no longer a truly Kemetic (original Egyptians) country; its like giving Euro-Americans possession of Native American artifacts.

ONE MAN’S ARTIFACT IS ANOTHER MAN’S HOLY AND SACRED RELIC.

The Arab conquerors of Egypt have no more right or respect for the Ancient Egyptian legacy than the Europeans. Many of the original looters of these tombs were Arab bandits. Dr. John Hendrik Clarke* was always diligent, along with Dr. Chancellor Williams* and Drusilla Houston*, about exposing the Arab's counteractive role, as related to the history of Africa and Africans.

Let it be also known, that history proves, that many West African tribes migrated from the Nile valley and beyond, not excluding the Nubian/Sudanese of the Upper Nile.

*- As you know, the life work of these historians are extraordinary!.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship,

P.S. – Dr. Hawass is an Arabian Uncle Tom and an Egyptian handkerchief head!!

Ozzy___ Ozzy____ Ozzy

First of all it’s interesting you mentioned Diop, I guess you are aware of how Diop requested to perform scientific examinations of some particular pharaonic remains to ascertain microbiological material in order to measure the concentration of melanin in the epidermis, to prove that the dynastic kings were Black Africans.

Europeans and Egyptian curators turned him down.

You have to research this on your own, but this racist episode is very well known in the world of African Studies.

This is why so many African scholars are suspicious of the Arab conquerors that have dominated African history and politics.

Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

Your arrogance has overruled your intellect. You as a Spaniard, who country was ruled for over 700 years by Moorish Kings (711-1492), have the audacity to talk about, “who has rights”. The African-Asiatic Moorish People literally brought the Europeans out of the dark ages and into the renaissance. But regardless of their long and impressive rule this did not prevent the Spaniards from kicking them out of Europe and reclaiming the land and the cultures of the past and that which was left behind. The fact that these so-called “non-white” people could rule over Europeans for so long, has almost removed them from the pages of public history.

And you seem unaware of the western migrations of now West African tribes, some like the Yoruba, not reaching their present homeland until 800AD, then forming the Oyo empire (not to say there were not existing Black Africans in West Africa before then). You need to brush up on your African history. Matter of fact a lot of the work that Dr. Diop and Dr. Ben was doing dealt with the linguistic links in West Africans and Nilotic cultures.

When the more honest researchers and Egyptologist look for the primitive roots of Pharaonic Egypt, they find extraordinary and striking similarities, in abundance, in the Sub-Saharan cultures. In the end concluding that the Ancient Egyptians descended from Black Africans and not Mesopotamians.

Interesting discussion!

One only needs to visit Kemet to see the obvious - it was a BLACK CIVILIVATION.

Just look at this break down of the Medu Neter

http://www.tehutionline.com/newpage9.htm

KMT: The Black City

by Akinjinde Bonotchi Montgomery

Kmt (Kemet) translated as the "Black Land" is a European Egyptological white lie. Almost the entire discipline agrees that the blackness that is referred to in the word kmt Kemet is the soil and not the black people that lived on the soil. European scholars will perform complex illogical mental gymnastics not to translate kmt Kemet as the "Black Community," " Black Town," or "Black City." They do this to avoid any idea or notion that the blackness that is referred to relates to the people who inhabit the land and not the soil. This confusion only exists because of racist scholars who attempt to cloud the facts of the text. The Medew Netcher is crystal clear if read correctly.

Perhaps Raymond O. Faulkner best illustrates this type of mental gymnastics in his book, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. In which he translates, kmt "the Black Land," "Egypt". (p.286) The next word in his dictionary is kmt. These two symbols followed by a man and a woman with plural strokes forms a collective and must be translated as "the Black People" or "the Blacks." Faulkner translates kmt as "Egyptians"? He couldn’t bring himself to write what is clearly before his eyes kemetu "the Black People." To translate this word kmt kemetu as Egyptians is nonsense. Egypt is a Greek word .

James P. Allen in his grammar book An Introduction to the Language and culture of Hieroglyphs, in which he translate " kmt (noun) "Egypt" (literally "the Black" referring to the cultivated soil along the Nile.)" (p.470) These scholars can only translate kmt as "the Black" by ignoring this symbol , at the end of the word. This symbol is used as a determinative and it is provided to clarify and make more precise the meaning of the word. Was this omission of the determinative a major mistake by Mr. Allen? I don’t think so, later in his book he translates this symbol nwt as a determinative for town or settlement. (p.439) His translation should read kmt "the Black Town" or "the Black Settlement," this scholar couldn’t bring his mind to make the logical connection between , and its determinative , the symbol, according to him for town or settlement.

James E. Hoch, in his unpublished book, Middle Egyptian Grammar translates, ", kmt (place name) "Egypt" (literally "the Black Land")"(p.291) He also disregards the determinative , and translates kemet in the standard manner "the Black Land." He also translate the symbol nwt as "city" on page 263 of the same book, ", nwt "city." Mr. Hoch’s translation should by logic be read "the Black City."

Sir Alan Gardiner in his monumental book Egyptian Grammar gives the following translations, km "black" (adj.); kmt, "the Black Land," Egypt." (p.597)

On pages 31-33, Sir Gardiner provides a list of generic determinative one of which is the symbol , and he says it is used to denote a "town" or "village." He and the other refuses to translate this determinative at all when it is associated with kmt. To translate kmt, Kemet as the "the Black Land" is inconsistent with the logic that is established by the grammar rules of the Medew Netcher language.

The break down of the word kmt is as follows: the first symbol (coal) is a biliteral symbol that has two letters to its transliteration, the two letters it represents are km. The next symbol(owl) is a uniliteral and only have one letter to its transliteration m and in this word it is used as a phonetic complement. Which is used to reinforce the sound value of the m. The third symbol (bread) is also a uniliteral and represents the letter t. This gives the transliteration kmt. The fourth symbol (village with crossroads) nwt is used as a determinative to clarify the word in use. Therefore in the word this symbol is used to denote a city, village, or community the correct translation is "the Black City" or "the Black Community."

The people of the Nile Valley called their country Black for the same reason and in the same sense that Detroit is called a Black city and Africa is called a Black continent, the majority population of all three are Black peoples.

Some common words in Mdw Ntr that are associated with land have the symbol for land tA, ta as part of their composition.

, ta "land" "earth" "ground"

, tawy "the two lands"

nb-tawy "Lord of the Two Lands"

, Ta-merry "the Beloved Land" another name the people used for Kemet. The name most used now by Doc Ben for the land.

Why are European scholars translating , Kemet as the Black Land when there is not a single symbol in the word you can associate with land or soil? The fact that ancient Kemet was a African (Black) country is something we should not expect European scholars to accept, but we can point out how the racist, yurugu mind will response with mental nonsense when faced with facts which destroys its perverted worldview. Like the simple fact that ancient Kemet "the Black Community" was a nation of Kemetu "Black People."

A European Egyptologist once said, "you know we can’t let those Blacks into the field of Egyptology because they will destroy the discipline."

All artifacts should be returned ASAP...

As well, mummies should not be on display in Kemet no longer.

QUOTE“Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

Who do you think I am, you have checked my location and assumed I am Spanish. Considered me white! And so insulted me. I was not born in Spain, I am not Spanish; I simply live here in Madrid. I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!

“I find it interesting”[/[/ that you have the arrogance to force your views on people you know nothing about and feel justified in insulting.

I have made no effort to insult, just to question, understand and inform. You however have
unfortunately shown that, what many Africans fear of Americans. A lack of understanding and an unwillingness to try to listen an understand. There are many and varied Blacks of the world, all with their own identity and culture, we work together and endeavor to understand our differences, it saddens me you are often excluded.

It also saddens me there is so much misinformation and quoting of outdated information. First let us consider the AFRICAN Berbers.

First you said [I]“Berbers ARE more properly define by linguistics than genetics” ARE! Being in the present tense, and defined by linguistics not genetics.

Then you say when I have responded that this is incorrect, “The ethnic Berber WAS originally group by linguistics, not excluding their RECENTLY FOUND Genetic commonalities”. Now it is WAS, (past tense) defined by linguistics, but not excluding recently found genetic relationships.

I think it is not me who needs to read your posts again it is you. I have said nothing more than the Berber tribes are an ethnically defined African group, who share genetic links. Your first statement is still incorrect, and contradicts your second.

You go on to say “When Berbers were categorized as a group, there were NO GENETIC SCIENCES that could analyze DNA”. Very true, but the history of the word Berber although debated, dates well back before the science of linguistics was ever born, and not a result of classification created by linguists as you suggest, again incorrect.

QUOTE“Secondly, you need to brush up on your anthropology. ALONG WITH DRAVIDIANS, so-called Negroids and Negritos, including Negroid-Dravidian racial mixtures also dominated sub-continental India. This fact is found archaeologically, historically and genetically. I’ve seen many East Indians with strong African features and I’m not just talking about skin color. Still, It is not surprising that the, more so-called Caucasian/Indo-Europeans types, are mostly represented internationally, because the caste system has always rewarded wealth and position to the lighter Brahmin caste, and then downward the color spectrum (though, as far as color, this was never an exact pseudo-science, as compare to North America’s Jim Crow system) Matter of fact, I find it interesting that several years ago I read a book and found several web pages where the Tamil (East Indian ethnic group) were exploring their sense of African-ness, basically redefining their history to reunite the sub-Saharan African and sub-continental Indian world”

Again I will ask, were this fact shown, archaeologically, historically, or genetically. Archaeologically there is no relationship with Dravidian technology with contemporary Africa, there is no historical text, religion, tradition, that connects it historically and genetically there is no closer relationship than the pre mentioned. For some one who has such strong feelings about a stolen heritage you seem quite willing to take another peoples self Identity and call them something else. The only relationship ever made were cranial classifications you have mentioned before which classify (racially) different peoples around the world into one group because of similar physical features. This classification was questioned by Diop and Obenga in their presentation to UNESCO at the Cairo conference in 1974 as being inconsistent and flawed. This is old outdated data and is again no lonnger used in any scientific disiplin.

QUOTE“I always find it interesting how all of this science is used to explain how the east African is so much different than the West African. But the white man will tell you how the Swede is closely related to the Australian Aborigine, who he still treats like a sub-human”

Who exactly in science is trying to explain how different East Africans is so much different from West Africans? And who in the world ever suggested the Swiss are closely related to the Australian Aboriginal. This is absolute fabrication, there has never been a scientific paper published claiming this connection. If you are referring to my questioning of your statement “Let it be also known, that history proves, that many West African tribes migrated from the Nile valley and beyond, not excluding the Nubian/Sudanese of the Upper Nile”, this is simply not a correct statement.

QUOTE“And that which makes a people related, can only be decided by the people themselves”.

Ask a Berber from Morocco and a Berber from Algeria if they are related. They will tell you yes, they are. By your own definition

Other inaccuracies are, cephalic indexes have nothing to do with hyper-dolichocephalism, pragmatism, nor steatopygia. Steatopygia for instance is represented by only two peoples on earth, and is not classified as a black or Negroid trait. Secondly the study of Anthropometrics goes way back to the 1800s and most then agreed that a useful measurement for racial classification would have to fulfill a number of requirements: ,” it would have to be resistant to environmental influences; it would have to be unaffected by cultural practices; and it should be possible to demonstrate heritability; “Head form (cephalic index) was thought to satisfy all these criteria. However measurements should always have a biological significance, as soon as they lose their significant they lose also their descriptive value”(Gould 1996; Marks 2002; Montagu 1997

Again an outdated method and classification and again one created by not Europeans but Americans. One should look at home before criticizing ones nab ours garden.

I could go on but I see no point. I have proved my point so I will close with the following and post no more.

QUOTE: UNESCO, General History of Africa, Ancient Civilizations of Africa.
"It is more than probable that the African strain, black or light, is preponderant in the Ancient Egyptian, but in the present state of our knowledge it is impossible to say more."

QUOTE: Cheikh Anta Diop.
"Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilisation. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective nor unruffled. He is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic. The ancient Egyptians were Negroes. The moral fruit of their civilisation is to be counted among the assets of the Black world."

Even with this in mind your statements are incorrect.

Time to move on, Thank you to those genuinely interested in the many and varied Black people of the world. There are many of us out here. Travel to Africa too see for your self.

Osman .

Quote, Ozzy

“Who do you think I am, you have checked my location and assumed I am Spanish. Considered me white! And so insulted me. I was not born in Spain, I am not Spanish; I simply live here in Madrid. I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

Unquote,

Quote,

“Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

Unquote

First of all, the white man has made you, a very defensive Negro, white man or Berber, or whatever you consider yourself. Any African who has to call himself an African "of Africa", to believe he is more of "an African" and then try to denounce African people, in any other part of the African Diaspora, to be even more "African", than those of so-called "African descent". May not be as much, as he thinks he is.

Annoucement:

AFRICANS BORN IN THE CONTINENT, DO NOT OWN A PATENT ON WHAT IT IS TO BE AFRICAN, AS IT APPLIES TO AFRICANS IN THE DIASPORA!!

Secondly if you don’t think Diop used comparative cultural analyses to show the connection between West and eastern/Nilotic African people you need to read Civilization or Barbarism AGAIN! Also grammatical errors (look at your own post), sometimes misrepresenting ones intent may occur in this type of forum, but YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS SAYING BY YOUR OWN COMMENTS and I don’t think Berbers are worried about their DNA and genetic markers as they continue to define their selves ON THEIR OWN TERMS!!

Third, I found it interesting that when talking to a Yoruba relative of mine. He talks about how these different North African and “non-negroid” African ethnic groups turn their backs on Black West Africans, especially when they are outside the continent, until it’s time to play soccer and they need some excellent players for their team, it is then, they would say. “Remember we are all Africans”.

Regardless of all the anthropometrics and biological investigations, many African scholars worldwide have been frustrated with the European scientific world as it applies to the science of Race and the primordial scientific paradigm of “what is an African”, to which they would simplify the question to the European, “ If an Ancient Egyptian or any of these other questionable ancient Black people were walking down the street, what would they be to you”.

This “I am of Africa” remark you made is old and tired my brother. Matter of fact Ozzy, you’ve proved my point concerning the divisiveness that can be derived from the science of genetics and race, for just as the scientist have played this “Hamitic Negroid” compared to the “true” West African Negroid game, for decades. Your understanding of genetics and culture did not prevent you from playing the “African descent” as compared to the “I was born in Africa” game. How do you know you are more African than I am? Do you have possesion of my particular genealogy or DNA? Did the ancestors tell you this? If you are more African than I am (whatever that means?) what do you do now? :lol: Can you sell your African-ness? :lol: This African “purity-foolishness” implied in your snide remark comes close to “Negro Nazi-ism" or some new sort of "African eugenics".

Brother I see the white man has done a job, on you.

The African’s that have survived the Diaspora, are not discouraged or intimidated by this type of silliness. Our ancestors have imbued in us, a relentless fortitude to ward off insults and misguided arrogance. Those Africans who were enslaved and exported all over the world died, struggled and fought to make us prideful of our place in the Pan African world and the world at large.

But look, you can attack me and/or all Africans in the America experience,

BUT THE TRUE STRENGTH AND CHARACTER OF AN AFRICAN, IS NOT WERE HE WAS BORN, BUT WHO HE IS.

And as far as you being a Spaniard or not. …..Who cares.

If it walks like an African and talks like an….well ok.

But if it walks like a duck and quack?...hm_mmm?


Sun Ship

I have once again experienced in this on-line community how the white western world has bamboozled, hoodwinked and distorted the minds of African people worldwide.

European science and education has taken away the African’s every sense of self-knowing, wisdom, spirituality, common sense and mother wit.

My mother use to constantly drill into me, “that a man without common sense and mother wit, is a fool”. It was the African, who first told the world that, “knowledge without wisdom and understanding is useless”. And believe me, you don’t need a footnote from a scientific journal to understand this, piece of great instruction.

AFRICANS, MUCH LIKE WISDOM, ARE IMMEASURABLE.

Ask any scientist, “what is a brain without the mind and can you accurately measure the mind’s quantity, quality and content?” If we attempt to do this with DNA or even Anthropometrics, (trying to define our quality or relationship to each other) we will find ourselves in a tailspin, towards the misguided slippery slope of eugenics and the scientifically based racial politics of the past centuries. For I have always said, “it’s the whole and not the part that make Africans and/or Black people an UNITED PEOPLE”!

What scientist has a firm grip on the determining factors of “where nature ends and nurture begins”?
This is a still a hotly debated topic in the academic community.

Better yet, where does the African end and the Black man begin? Or how far and long do a Black man have to be from continental Africa, before he stops being an African? Or what percentage of “Authentic” African DNA, will make him still in the family?

It’s interesting to hear white people using DNA, to proclaim that the “Out of Africa” theory makes ALL HUMANS AFRICANS (including them) and then convince BLACK Africans to subject their selves to testing, to clarify their genetic place in the Black world. A DNA testing, on Black people that assure them who are the true Africans and who are not Africans, amongst them. ??????????????

Its amazing how we trust anything that white people pour out of a test tube, as the absolute empirical word of God (liking to truth). And when the western scientific world revise or change a hypothesis or fact, do we ever scrutinize their original intentions and scorn them for, how many lives were affected by the pervious idea?

Recently I was looking at an ABC Nightline program on DNA, as it applied to racial and ethnic identity. Of course they focused on a presumed African American Black male who sent a DNA sample (mouth swab) to a Genetics testing lab. His results came back 0% African. This man was an educator who had promoted Black and African history and pride his entire career. But after the test he could no longer view his self as a Black man of African descent.

IN ALL MY WILDEST DREAMS, I NEVER THOUGHT THAT THE WHITE MAN COULD FOOL US INTO TAKING A TEST TO VALIDATE HOW BLACK OR AFRICAN WE ARE.

I am not saying, DNA is a useless science, but let me try to say this again, “truth and facts are two different sides of a very important issue. That issue is, “what makes you, who you are?”

Slightly digressing, another good example of what I am talking about is, I recently took notice to another news story about diet, lifestyle and health, whereas researchers had performed a variety of test that showed, that if properly approached, a low-cal diet could induce longevity among humans. Or lets review Dr. Dean Ornish findings, finally destroying a myth (originally called empirical scientific fact) that heart disease could not be reversed. These news stories should seem literally, “world changing”. But, in each circumstance the astute scientific community denounced these findings, even though they accepted the test and the results, because they believed the lifestyle changes needed in order to benefit from these wondrous discoveries, would be unacceptable to the populace at large.

The point I’m trying to make is, the FACT that a DNA driven future of medicine and biology, may be undeniable, and observing and charting its intricate components may be a worthy practice, for geneticist.

But the TRUTH is that DNA like everything else Europeans have their hands on, will be froth with politics, ethical issues, religio-socio implications, commercial exploitation and racial assumptions.

Other words, “everything that shines ain't gold”.

I wish I had my hands on an article, I once read dealing with the fact, there are very racist researchers who are in the academic closet, for they felt the “politically correct” scientific world, would not accept their views, in the popular arena of ideas. These men believed, that there is plenty of evidence that proves “race and genetics” matter when it applies to innate qualities of intellect (IQ) and the history of civilized people. They are waiting and salivating at the “scientific door” of humanity to spin genetic science.

What do you think the “Bell Curve” was all about? ___H-mmm. Here we go with Euro-science again.

Why do you think Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop found it important to research and write the book, “Civilization or Barbarism”, a book that has an extraordinary forward by John Hendrik Clarke. But I’m sure Dr. Clarke’s comments would not be interesting or important to brother Ozzy, because this world-renowned scholar is of the lowly caste called “people of African Descent”

As far as, the credibility of the white scientific oligarchy and their ethical objectives, you need to research what happen to the German Nazi scientific community after World War II. And then ask yourself what is really behind the science of Europeans.

Imperialist and racist can fit lab coats also.

And for those of us who are rejoicing over DNA results, releasing wrongly accused Black Men from the penitentiary, (which I think has been one the most important gifts of this science, FOR US) This is still like, “surgically cutting off a man’s hands and then sewing them back on, then waiting for him to clap for you, for helping him”.

So if Africans and Black people are relishing over the promise, that European science has for us, as we’re being ravished by every disease and pathogen known to man. Remember we are still waiting for the blessings of modern health care and scientific discovery of the past century.

Ashe,

Sun Ship

P.S. – I Apologize sister NNQueen for digressing from your original topic. This is my most humble opinion and I apologize for any grammatical errors.

Sister NNQueen :bowdown:

Once Again I apologize for digressing from your exact subject, in this very important thread. But, I just hope our ignorance doesn’t make us the mummies and ancient DNA specimens of the future, with a white forensic geneticist pondering over our remains, recording us as an extinct species and wondering, who we were, as a people.

Ashe,

Sun Ship

Brother Sun Ship...that is a dismal picture that you described and I hope it never comes true. You don't have to apologize for moving away from the topic because I viewed it as all relevant and interesting discussion, although I was lost on much of it due to it's depth and breadth of information of which I'm not as familiar. Yet, I still found it to be quite an interesting debate.

But help a less knowledgeable sister out, please. What exactly did you and Ozzy differ on in terms of the Egyptian artifacts and how they are being claimed?

As far as modern day Blacks...specifically African Americans, we don't necessarily have sacred burial sites, per se. Gravestones don't read: Here lies a Black man, Black woman or Black child. We don't have communal land ownership on a vast scale where we bury our dead and we certainly don't preserve our bodies nor bury any relics when we die. Or do we? :confused: Well, maybe Michael Jackson is preserved already but can you imagine what future archealogists will discover when they dig him up? What story will that say about us? :eeek:

Peace!

I don’t think Ozzy really harnessed the depth of my opinion.

When you consider the original premise of returning ancient Egyptian artifacts to Cairo, on the surface this seems like a worthy proposition. But I think the Ancient Egyptian mummified remains and many other artifacts belong more to the aboriginal Africans of Africa than the conquering Arab culture in modern day Egypt. Matter of fact, modern-day Egypt and Ancient Egypt are not a continuum. Sure there are ethnic groups that are closely related to, if not direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians, within Egypt proper. But the current culture, government and geographical boundaries of modern day Egypt are not the complete story of these people. Nowhere, are the remaining Black Africans of Africa included in this picture and we (Blacks) are definitely excluded from the intellectual circles of the Arab/Egyptian culture. Even though the majority of the ancient Egyptian people and royal pharaonic class looked more like us, than the average modern day Arab/Egyptian.

Look at these recent depictions that were reconstructed of Tutankhamen and Queen Nefertiti.

Nefertiti face
http://www.bet.com/articles/0,1048,c3gb7109-7928-1,00.html

Tutankhamen face
http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/face/face.html


Most of the looting and destruction of ancient Egyptian monuments were done by Christian and Moslem, Greeks and Arabs who viewed the ancient Egyptian culture and religion as an legacy to be trashed or stolen.

Lets go even further. It’s not like European curators, archeologist and researchers will loose control over the interpretation and analyses of these artifacts, once they’re shipped to Cairo, for they are the dominant force in Egyptology and fund much of the research. And I have a hard time imagining Dr. Zahi Hawass, befriending the broader African scientific community, as he seems to be a puppet of the established and more conservative Euro-Egyptologist community.

A greater hypothetical irony, which I ponder over, is, I wondered if the present day Arab/Egyptian scientific community would had been as forthright as the British, even. As far as, some of the new admissions through facial reconstruction that revealed what our scientist and scholars already knew, in reference to the African features of the royal class.

Ozzy, will not admit that there are a hereditary, cultural and racial connections between the broader so-called sub-Saharan Africoid community and the Ancient Egyptians, Nubians, and other east African/Nilotic Black people. But he loves to refer to Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop, who dedicated his life work to the Black African connections to Ancient Egypt. I have some facts and references I will post soon.

Now as far as, our own burial grounds in this modern time, I think the African Grave site in New York is an extraordinary testament of our respect for our African ancestry, even in a strange land. Also, there are probably many marked and unmarked African/African American graveyards all over America being desecrated, everyday for some sort of civic progress or something. This includes burials during and after slavery. I think some very subtle and important artifacts and historical chapters in our history become ignored, as we chase other high-minded ideas.

Peace and Ashe,

Sun Ship

P.S. – If Egypt receives all of the artifacts back tomorrow, I wouldn’t loose any sleep over it. For the truth will be revealed in the end.

Peace Sister NNQueen :bowdown:

Here are some links, to some extraordinary web pages that will show you the political, cultural and ancestral connections between Africans of the sub-Saharan and African/Dravidians of sub-continental India. These pages deal with modern and ancient connections.

If Brother Ozzy thinks the young Black East Indian sister on this first page, has nothing to do with Black African people than he is more blind and insane than I thought. :lol:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pasa.html

The following pages are at the same web site and are interconnected.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/caste.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/diop.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/dalits.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/elango1.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india2.html


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/bengal.html

Also read everything you can by RUNOKO RASHIDI. This brother, is one of the foremost scholars in the world, who deal with the African and African-Asiatic connection. He is well known by many distinguished East Indian and Dravidian scholars and activist. He has extensively researched and traveled India. Matter of fact, read his book, African Presence in Early Asia.

Also Ozzy’s claim, that Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop, does not use anthropometrics, iconography and linguistics, along with biology to make his case, about the interconnections of Black people in Africa and beyond, are fraudulent.

Please read Diop’s book, CIVILIZATION OR BARBARISM, An Authentic Anthropology, for your selves!!

Peace,

Sun Ship

Quote, Ozzy

“Who do you think I am, you have checked my location and assumed I am Spanish. Considered me white! And so insulted me. I was not born in Spain, I am not Spanish; I simply live here in Madrid. I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

Unquote,

Quote,

“Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

Unquote

First of all, the white man has made you, a very defensive Negro, white man or Berber, or whatever you consider yourself. Any African who has to call himself an African "of Africa", to believe he is more of "an African" and then try to denounce African people, in any other part of the African Diaspora, to be even more "African", than those of so-called "African descent". May not be as much, as he thinks he is.

Annoucement:

AFRICANS BORN IN THE CONTINENT, DO NOT OWN A PATENT ON WHAT IT IS TO BE AFRICAN, AS IT APPLIES TO AFRICANS IN THE DIASPORA!!

Secondly if you don’t think Diop used comparative cultural analyses to show the connection between West and eastern/Nilotic African people you need to read Civilization or Barbarism AGAIN! Also grammatical errors (look at your own post), sometimes misrepresenting ones intent may occur in this type of forum, but YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS SAYING BY YOUR OWN COMMENTS and I don’t think Berbers are worried about their DNA and genetic markers as they continue to define their selves ON THEIR OWN TERMS!!

Third, I found it interesting that when talking to a Yoruba relative of mine. He talks about how these different North African and “non-negroid” African ethnic groups turn their backs on Black West Africans, especially when they are outside the continent, until it’s time to play soccer and they need some excellent players for their team, it is then, they would say. “Remember we are all Africans”.

Regardless of all the anthropometrics and biological investigations, many African scholars worldwide have been frustrated with the European scientific world as it applies to the science of Race and the primordial scientific paradigm of “what is an African”, to which they would simplify the question to the European, “ If an Ancient Egyptian or any of these other questionable ancient Black people were walking down the street, what would they be to you”.

This “I am of Africa” remark you made is old and tired my brother. Matter of fact Ozzy, you’ve proved my point concerning the divisiveness that can be derived from the science of genetics and race, for just as the scientist have played this “Hamitic Negroid” compared to the “true” West African Negroid game, for decades. Your understanding of genetics and culture did not prevent you from playing the “African descent” as compared to the “I was born in Africa” game. How do you know you are more African than I am? Do you have possesion of my particular genealogy or DNA? Did the ancestors tell you this? If you are more African than I am (whatever that means?) what do you do now? :lol: Can you sell your African-ness? :lol: This African “purity-foolishness” implied in your snide remark comes close to “Negro Nazi-ism" or some new sort of "African eugenics".

Brother I see the white man has done a job, on you.

The African’s that have survived the Diaspora, are not discouraged or intimidated by this type of silliness. Our ancestors have imbued in us, a relentless fortitude to ward off insults and misguided arrogance. Those Africans who were enslaved and exported all over the world died, struggled and fought to make us prideful of our place in the Pan African world and the world at large.

But look, you can attack me and/or all Africans in the America experience,

BUT THE TRUE STRENGTH AND CHARACTER OF AN AFRICAN, IS NOT WERE HE WAS BORN, BUT WHO HE IS.

And as far as you being a Spaniard or not. …..Who cares.

If it walks like an African and talks like an….well ok.

But if it walks like a duck and quack?...hm_mmm?


Sun Ship

I find it interesting that you can come up with all this based on my asertian that "I am of Africa" which is factual, non offencive, and correct. It is clear you have a problem, a hatred that overflows to those who extend their hand, or even anyone who you persieve as more African that you, "as I certainly did not say that". You made that assumton from four simple truthfull words. It was a simple truthful statement directed at the hatefull and incorrect attack you made previously. which was the following.

"Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

Your arrogance has overruled your intellect. You as a Spaniard,

You yourself called yourself a descendant, what can we make of that? I made a truthfull statemant as blunt as yours, but mine is as you claim "defensive, a claim to be more African, purity-foolishness, African eugenics, Negro Nazi-ism, and other few things you were able to call me.

You have insulted, but debated and discused nothing. And you call me a "defensive Negro"

The more you write the more people see the truth, your current misqotes and lies concerning my posts are clear examples of your habitial need tto misquote and misinterpretate authors such as Diop.

I also find it interesting that you attack any area of science you feel is manhandled or manipulated by "white" science, but produce evidance to support your limited claims such as the nefertiti reconstruction. Which is the work of English forensic scientists, and Joan Fletcher, who is the Author of the "blond Egyptians theory". You pick and choose your data to support your preaching, and exclude the data contadicting your claims.

My consulation is that the readers are educated and will, and do, know you inacuracies.

You offered and extended your hand to me, to come to America, I now extend mine to you to come to Africa.

The reason for my presents on this board was to make aware to you the community that exists among world wide groups who endever to understand and exchange their many and varied cultures ( We do not just define ourselves by the phonotype or color of our skin). Many of us now call for reconsiliation, not revolution!, unfortunately it has too often excluded America for the very reasons you have shown on this board. I hope one day you too will become a part of this community, and not exclude yourselves. For the respect you have shown me is what most of our community fear of America. The lack of respect for individual and distinct cultures, and people.

I hope it will encourage at least some, to persue an understanding of the the few groups I have mentioned which will lead to the many that exist in out community.

Osman

http://www.arts.uwa.edu.au/MotsPluriels/MP1300sambspeacheng.html

NNQueen an article you may find informative of the current situation regarding the return of artifacts. Although I do not see eye to eye with Zahi, he has a passion for Egypt

http://www.egypttoday.com/issues/0309/880D/0309880D.asp

I will not be posting in the future, but as you have access to my details I would be happy to respond to your correspondance directly if you should so desire.

Regards

Osman

Also RUNOKO RASHIDI has been invited to speak but has declined when questioned about statmentments he has made on his home page, like,

"I heard Aboriginal Australians say that we all come from Africa, and that all Black folks have African roots. Black people truly are on the move".

Then on another page he post an article by Aboriginal GRACELYN SMALLWOOD*

"Thank you, Brothers and Sisters. I'd like to thank The World Uranium Hearing for giving me the privilege of being able to present today. I have ten minutes to give you 200 years of colonization of Indigenous Australia. So, I commence by giving a quote from an Aboriginal woman in my country, Jackie Huggins:

"Aboriginal Australians have lived in Australia over 40,000 years. It has been a long argued view of European anthropologists and prehistorians that modern humanity migrated South to Australia. This fails to explain, however, why older forms of modern human beings have not been found outside the continent. The legends and religious beliefs of modern Aboriginal Australia have "NO" stories of "MIGRATION". There is no evidence of migration memories anywhere in our country. This is a religious position taken by Aboriginal Australians, and science has failed to refute it."

These statement posted by him on his own web site refutes, and claims the total opposite of his previouse staments and when asked he is unable to produce or quote one Aboriginal to prove his claims. It is simply a lie. Not one Australian believes he is African.

Sunship you continue to misinform and denie ancient people thier own identity, shame on you! I feel not anger but `pitty you have to denie the history of others to support your own.

For a truthfull responce contact the people themselves ATSIC (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commision).

But sunship will tell you the very "traditianl owners" themslves do not know their own history, and are brain washed by the white man. Thank god we have enlightened people like him who have never set foot in any of the countries he speaks of but never the less know better than the very people themslves.

http://www.atsic.gov.au/tools/contact.asp.

He has made simular claims about Figi and New Zealand. All contradicting native legends, culture and history. Research for yourselves and expose the truth.

We know our differences an we know our connection, we embrace our individuality, we do not need to be the same to be a force!

OSMAN

Ozzy, it's too bad that you don't intend to see this discussion through to the end? Do you think that African Americans are too militant in their views? Do you think we're arrogant and should believe that we should all just try to get along? You seem to be quite knowledgeable. How much African American history are you aware of? What do you think of our experiences and how it has affected our thinking and living? Although our inventions may not be equivalent to Egyptian artifacts, but what do you think about all the things we have invented since being here and weren't given credit nor compensated for after they were 'stolen' from us? True, these inventions have benefitted more than just us now that they have been mass produced and made available to the world, but what do you think about that? How should we feel about that? I hope you stay around to respond.

Ozzy , you seem to be an educated man and you assume that, by just implying that I am wrong, without you providing specific documentation, that the readers of your post will just roll over and believe your assertions. This is the attitude that “white” academia has had for centuries. You have misconstrued everything that I have said and though you may be from Africa, I wonder if you are Black. I apologize for calling you a Spaniard, but your knowledge of Africans in the Diaspora is wanting and you know nothing relevant about the African descendants in America or how much we have contributed to the overall African conciseness of the Pan African world and/or the world at large. But, lets look at what you have to say, absent of any researchable facts.

Quote Ozzy:

“ …do not support Arabisination but I do support the right of a person born to egypt to call himself, or herself egyptian, just as an American claims the same right. Particualy when they may have a 1000 years history in that country.”

unquote

This statement you made in reference to Arabs, having the right to adopt and fulfill a hereditary right to Egyptian artifacts and remains, because of an 1000 year experience in Egypt, is like Africans accepting European colonization, if the Europeans could've stayed another century or two. And there are still Native Americans who do accept the Europeans claim over their birthrights, and they are retrieving their artifacts and remains everyday. They don’t care how long Europeans have been here, as far as they are concern they are still foreigners.

Quote: Sun Ship (from a previous post)

“Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.”

unquote

The ‘Johnny come lately” part of the above statement, was directed at the Africanized Arab community. Who have had a tendency not to see sub-Saharan Black Africans as their “soul-brothers” or equals, read Chancellor Williams’, Destruction of Black Civilization. The Arabs historically, have treated the Black African, with unfettered cruelty. They ruled and controlled most of the trans-continental African slave trade.

Lets take a closer look at your “ I am of Africa” response,

Quote: Ozzy

"I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!"

unquote

By implying the following,“I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have” “Your are of African decent”, your statement goes beyond my personal sensitivities, but insults, castigates and is demeaning to all the readers of your post, who may happen to be, of African descent. The inference is clear, and cannot be mollified.

From Ozzy’s post:
QUOTE: Cheikh Anta Diop.
"Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilisation. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective nor unruffled. He is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic. The ancient Egyptians were Negroes. The moral fruit of their civilisation is to be counted among the assets of the Black world."
unquote

If the ancient Egyptians were Negroes, tell me Ozzy, where does one Negro end and the other Negro began, in Africa. And if the West African did not come from the East, did they fall out of the sky or swim out of the sea??

I’m sitting before Diop’s books as I type,

“The African Origin of Civilization – Myth or Reality”

and

“Civilization or Barbarism –An Authentic Anthropology”

Over and Over again Diop uses Senegalese culture, Wolof linguistics, Dogon cosmogony and other Black African cultures, for examples of ancient Egyptian and Black African cultural congruency. There is obviously something amiss with your interpretation of Diop’s scholarship. I can’t believe you are a Black African.

And you never dealt with the African/African Asian evidence I posted. Something is amiss here.

The excerpt below is from Cheikh Anta Diop’s, Civilzation or Barbarism – An Authentic Anthropology, “Characteristics of Political and Social African Structures” __p.182

“There was therefore, at a relatively recent period, migration from east to west originating from the Upper Nile, which came to superimpose itself in the West African Sudano-Senegalese region on a more ancient north-south migration, whose first waves arrived 7000 B.C., with the beginning of the drying up of the Sahara. The last ones, during the protohistoric epoch, might have consisted of the porto-Wangara of the Mande language, whereas the tribes coming from the east brought the neo-Bantu languages.”

This is just one of many examples I can give you of east/west migrations of Africans to western Africa, some as late as 800 AD.

Ashe!

Sun Ship

Ozzy, you keep talking about Australian Aborigines, who the European anthropologist have been calling Caucasians, for centuries. You keep trying to construct an argument from out of your own imagination and you are still, purposely, misconstruing and ignoring the real subject.

Man, I always heard a "little" knowledge is dangerous.

Sister NNQueen, African American inventors have been some of the greatest inventors of modern world history and have been the “diamonds” of the modern Pan African scientific world. Ozzy knows, NOTHING about our greatness. And don’t understand, that the African world will go nowhere, without the input of the African Diasporic community.

More irrefutable facts of the east/west Nile Valley connections of Africans, from Diop. :teach:

The African Origin of Civilization – Myth or Reality
By Cheikh Anta Diop
Chapter IX – Peopling of Africa from the Nile Valley
Page 179

“West African legends report that Blacks migrated from the east, from the region of the Great Water.” __”From what we know about the archeology of South Africa, where humanity seems to have been born; from what we know about Nubian civilization, probably the oldest of all; from what we know about the prehistory of the Nile Valley, we can legitimately assume that the “Great Water” is none other than the Nile. No matter where we collect legends on the genesis of a Black African people, those who still remember their origins say they came from the east…” “Dogon and Yoruba legends report that they came from the east…”

Civilization or Barbarism –An Authentic Anthropology
By Cheikh Anta Diop
Forward by Dr. John Hendrik Clarke – xviii

“Diop states:

The general problem confronting African history is this: how to reorganize effectively, through meaningful research, all of the fragments of the past into a single epoch, an origin which will reestablish African continuity; if the ancients were not victims of a mirage, it should be easy enough to draw upon another series of arguments and proofs for the union of history of Ethiopian and Egyptian societies with the rest of Africa. Thus combined, these histories would to a properly patterned past in which it would be seen that (ancient) Ghana rose in the interior (West Africa) of the continent at the moment of Egyptian decline, just as the western European empires were born with the decline of Rome.”

Peace and Ashe!

Sun Ship

The Sudroid (Indo-African) Race

The Sudran, or Sudroid, race refers to the aboriginal populations of India. Formerly widepread over all of India, they were displaced from most of Hindustan (North India) and virtually all of the Deccan by invading Aryans. Sudroid includes the following peoples:


Sudroid

1.) Dravidoids (speakers of Dravidian languages)
2.) Untouchables or Avarans
_____a.) Antyajas/Dalits/SC
_____b.) Adivasis/ST
3.) Vedic Shudrs (Aryanized and enslaved blacks)

They are a black race, closely related to the Africans and Australoids, as evident from -

1.) Black skin , broad noses , thick lips and wavy-curly hair
2.) Linguistically, all the languages are related.
3.) Genetically they are closely related



The following footnote is from the web page links at the bottom of this page.


The Congolese linguist Th. Obenga proposed the term 'Indo-African' languages in analogy with 'Indo-European' [ Obenga ]. Prof. L. Homburger established close linguistic connections between Dravidian and Senegalese languages especially Fulani, as well as Kannada - Bantu and Telugu - Mande relationships [ Hom ].


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm

Ozzy? Brother where art thou?

Have thou runneth and cowardth, from the challenge of debate?

Haveth facts and information, I've presented stressed thee?

Lets look at that beautiful Indo-African princess one more time.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pasa.html

Tell your Spaniard friends about the web page link above.

Peace,

Sun Ship