Just a question I would like to put out...

Hello BlackEmpress ... Welcome to the Family ! :wave:

I think your question is a reasonable one and appreciate you asking it. Briefly, i do believe that far too many Black men have been raised without a Father and are in fact missing some major foundational support on which to build their lives. Unfortunately, it's not just Black men, but Black women too, that suffer from this. While there are many things that impact a life, missing this foundational support can only weaken the child, in spite of how unaffected they may appear.

Please, make yourself at home, because you are.

:heart:

Destee

I don't know exactly what is meant by the word 'weak' in the topic of this thread, but I'm sure it can have different definitions depending on different perspectives. Some might say that because I'm woman, I couldn't see this, but I don't view this question as an insult to Black men.

I'm glad that Black people have a different community viewpoint than whites. I'm glad that we see a need to analyze the many parts of the community, to see what makes it work and what doesn't. Racism has many influences on the mind. It could either make you see the glass as being half empty or half full. It's all about perspective.

Raising Black youth (men and women) to simply blend in with mainstrearm American society, could be viewed as a weakness. Some of our children only want to pursue the 'American Dream." Black parents allowing their children (men and women) to be consumed and controlled by mindless and mind altering activities put there to manipulate them to the advantage of and to cater to the dominant society, are raising 'weak' adults.

There's a saying that you get out what you put into something. Parenting is a major responsibility and should be taken very seriously. Whether it be a single parent or two-parent home, to me, it's all about what parents are teaching and demonstrating to their children. They will take away from you, the good and the bad.

MHO

The question is an insult. It actually assumes that Black men are weaker than other males. I keep seeing this statement or question. Weakness or lack of power is not sexual.
I think you have seen too many Terry MacMillan movies.

This question which I posed was in no way shape or form meant to disrespect my Black brothers, it is simply a question that I have indeed heard, not from any book or movie, but by mothers who are or have raised sons. They have questioned (and I feel are justified doing so) their parenting especially as a single mother.

Brother Isanusu ... this is a community made especially for Black folk and we will always have a majority of discussion, questions, etc., about Black men, women and children. I don't know why you expect discussions about white folk to be equally represented or even mentioned.

Both Queenie and myself mentioned the fact that none of this applies to men only.

In addition, you are welcome to start as many threads about women as you'd like. Matter of fact, i remember one specifically you started, PMS Put Me Straight (http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20441), where you ask,"If PMS does have mental and emotional effects, should women in positions of power and authority take monthly vacations?"This is insulting in my opinion, but i was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, as you should give this Sister.

I'm sure she's just seeking information, as you were in your thread.

:heart:

Destee

the question is a valid one because nowdays a disturbing amount of black families are single household families...i see it everyday with my lil nephew...i try to be there for him as much as possible, but growing up around nothing but women, i believe, has stagnated his growth a lil...sometimes i have to be big bad mean uncle just for him to listen...if his father was in the picture this might be a different case, but maybe not...i do know that black people need to really think of our seperate issues(male and female) as just one set of issues...because seperating them i believe plays into the jim crow mentality that has plauged our people for quite some time...im sure if da brothers had a forum that talked about black men issues with sistas...there would be a lot of :mad: and angry black women on this site...cause to me, a black womans problem is my problem, along with my problems being my problem...because black women are my queen and my link to the future...i hope this makes sense...
peace
khasm

'Kinda depends on whatcha mean by "raising."


We do our sons and daughters a disservice by catering to their every want.
Their sense of entitlement is fed and encouraged by the behavior of their parent or parents.

So, if a single mother or a two parent home is more a "friend" to their children than parents, then, YES, they're likely to release "weak," immature, lazy and selfish "adult males" into society who may likely remain "adult males" well into their 20s, 30s, and 40s.

And I say "adult males" because that's not the same as being a MAN.

the system of global white supremacy does

FOR WALKING AWAY WHEN A BIGGER BOY HIT ME......

FOR WALKING AWAY WHEN A GIRL DISRESPECTED ME.....

FOR NOT BEATING A GUY UP WHEN HE STOLE FROM ME....

FOR NOT BEATING A WOMAN UP WHEN SHE CHEATED ON ME....

FOR NOT PULLING THE TRIGGER ON A YOUNGSTER THAT VANDALIZED OUR CHURCH...

FOR REFUSING TO ARGUE ABOUT BLACK WOMEN NURTURING THEIR RESENTMENT FOR BLACK MEN.....


THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE HERE IS THAT I KEPT SOME VERY NEGATIVE COMPANY FOR MANY YEARS.....AND I AGREE WITH YOU JAMESFROMPHILLY.....

45 YEARS AGO THERE WERE WAY MORE TWO-PARENT BLACK HOUSEHOLDS THAN TODAY....IN MY OPINION , SELFISHNESS IS MOSTLY TO BLAME .

HOWEVER , THE FREEER WE GOT , THE MORE IGNORANT WE BECAME....THEREFORE , STRUCTURE AS A COMMON WHOLE WAS LOST......

I DO NOT BELIEVE WE ARE RAISING WEAK BLACK MEN......

I BELIEVE THAT TOO MANY OF US AS PARENTS HAVE USED PRIDE & DENIAL AS SHIELDS OF PROTECTION AGAINST HISTORY & TRUTH....

AND THE RESULT.....LOST , CONFUSED , HOPELESS , ARROGANT & MISGUIDED CHILDREN WERE PRODUCED.....


WARRIOR

I didn't think we could post on this side of the forum, I would like to add my 4 cents. I do feel that alot of sisters are taking for granted what it takes for the young brothers to become a man, if you didn't have a father in your own life you really won't have nothing to compare it to. The percentages of single mothers raising succesful black men are not as great as we would like to believe. Alot of our young men find their own identity and as you know when something grows not unde controlled conditions it grows wild. One one of the other message boards I am one of the brothers told us how one day while in the kitchen with his mom and aunt. His aunt says to his mother he was going to end up with a white girl and the aunt reasoning behind saying that was because he nephew(the brotha) was too nice for black women. For the record it wasn't me my aunt and my mother weren't close at all. I have taken my son to the park consistently and have gotten disgusted by how many times I hear these mothers saying to their son don't go up the slide that way or don't climb up there. I can't count how many times my son and some other little boy started wrestling and some mother put a stop to it because she was afraid they were going to get hurt. The boys were either on sand or grass. Of course I get this hostile look. ****! Let boys be boys no one stopped us from wrestling. To many of our brothers are being groomed for the thug lifestyle. Mothers dressing their boys in hip hop gear not making the correlation between dressing their son's like that at 2 and 3 years old and the level of comfort that develops with them having being used to dressing like that.

There are 2 brothers that I have kept up with who are now 17 and 19, I came into their life when they were 7 and 9. If you were to ask them they would tell you I am the closes thing to a father they have.These boys are not bad have found themselves in trouble. I got put with them alot being they initially lived directly behind me and I attended their church a few times in the beginning. I would assume the mom was looking for a surrogate not to mentor her boys but to free her up so she can be more available to her pastor that had her under lock and key in the beginning and yes he was married. He come a calling and she went a running. The boys got to spend more than enough quality time with me.

Sisters could help each other out so much by making a effort to form relationship with males no matter how platonic it is. Not to mention children whether boys or girls do not need to be sitting their butts in beauty salons or barshops directly in earshot of the gossiping going on. If you have a boy and he has to get his haircut don't drop him off and leave.

the system of global white supremacy does

WRONG! I raise my children!

FOR WALKING AWAY WHEN A BIGGER BOY HIT ME......

FOR WALKING AWAY WHEN A GIRL DISRESPECTED ME.....

FOR NOT BEATING A GUY UP WHEN HE STOLE FROM ME....

FOR NOT BEATING A WOMAN UP WHEN SHE CHEATED ON ME....

FOR NOT PULLING THE TRIGGER ON A YOUNGSTER THAT VANDALIZED OUR CHURCH...

FOR REFUSING TO ARGUE ABOUT BLACK WOMEN NURTURING THEIR RESENTMENT FOR BLACK MEN.....


THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE HERE IS THAT I KEPT SOME VERY NEGATIVE COMPANY FOR MANY YEARS.....AND I AGREE WITH YOU JAMESFROMPHILLY.....

45 YEARS AGO THERE WERE WAY MORE TWO-PARENT BLACK HOUSEHOLDS THAN TODAY....IN MY OPINION , SELFISHNESS IS MOSTLY TO BLAME .

HOWEVER , THE FREEER WE GOT , THE MORE IGNORANT WE BECAME....THEREFORE , STRUCTURE AS A COMMON WHOLE WAS LOST......

I DO NOT BELIEVE WE ARE RAISING WEAK BLACK MEN......

I BELIEVE THAT TOO MANY OF US AS PARENTS HAVE USED PRIDE & DENIAL AS SHIELDS OF PROTECTION AGAINST HISTORY & TRUTH....

AND THE RESULT.....LOST , CONFUSED , HOPELESS , ARROGANT & MISGUIDED CHILDREN WERE PRODUCED.....


WARRIOR

It takes infinitely more strength to walk away than to respond with our initial emotional response. That was strength that you exhibited.


I BELIEVE THAT TOO MANY OF US AS PARENTS HAVE USED PRIDE & DENIAL AS SHIELDS OF PROTECTION AGAINST HISTORY & TRUTH....
AND THE RESULT.....LOST , CONFUSED , HOPELESS , ARROGANT & MISGUIDED CHILDREN WERE PRODUCED.....

Amen! We have to put our pride, fear, and selfishness aside and embrace the journey to truth in order to become stronger.

This is not going to to be a popular statement but....Single mothers raise weak men. Case closed.

I know women do their level best, but it cannot be done. I have witnessed this in so many occasions. The only way it works is if a male person like an uncle or a grandfather is a consistent close presence in the boy's life. It is unlikely that a step father can fill the void because "You are not my father" jumps out of a kid's mouth in a second. And then here comes the mother to the rescue. My own mother was a single parent and I am far more prepared for life than my older brother is. It's sad really.

Maybe the solution is we need to be more careful who and how we procreate and once the procreation is done, we need to hold all the key parties responsible. Not just for money but for time as well. Because this new generation of children, quite frankly, fightens me.

Single mothers raise weak men.

i am not weak.

the global system of white supremacy raises up black children to be weak

i am not weak.

You will always have exceptions to the rule of thumb. What Bootzey is saying no matter how much a woman can try, she just can't teach a man to be a man. Symbolically she can't teach him how to pee standing up lack of a better word. Dr. Ben Carson is a example of a exception to the rule of thumb but he isn't a representation of that rule. Most of these knuckleheads out here were raised by women or if the father was in the house he was nothing more than furniture never moving two feet from the tv. Of course being raised in a 2 parent household is no guarantee but the odds are more for then against.

i concur with with sister bootzey said....
right now with the percentage of our brain in use....
we learn best by example...and that is 99.99% of human beings right now....
if there is no one around setting a strong example of what a man should be
ON THE DAILY...
the male child will take other examples...and most of the time the people/examples
the child chooses are not the best...especially when we have so many bad examples
on the boob tube...
i am still struggling with my nephew now but he's a smart kid so i know
things will work out in the end....

one love
khasm

you do not raise your children
the system of global white supremacy does

Originally Posted by Bootzey
Single mothers raise weak men.

i am not weak.

by design...
the global system of white supremacy raises up black children to be weak


wow.

First, not US but White supremacy "raises" our children.

But this does not apply to YOU cuz your single mother didn't raise a weak man.

Then, again, White supremacy "raises" our children to be weak.




Okay.

I have to agree with Sistah NNQueen - what exactly is meant by the word 'weak?' In all honesty, I am about to add both weak and strong to my collection of words that are mis-leading, over-used and abused, and worn out.

KWABENA

wow.

First, not US but White supremacy "raises" our children.

But this does not apply to YOU cuz your single mother didn't raise a weak man.

Then, again, White supremacy "raises" our children to be weak.




Okay.

You will always have exceptions to the rule of thumb..

i apologize if my moving from the general to the specific has confused you.
while it is better to have both parents around and many single mothers do struggle, it is also true that not all have a bad outcome.

i was abandoned by my mother who had mental problems and i was raised collectively by my grandmother and my aunts.
in my case, i was never weak but it did take me a long time to figure out how to be a man.

single mothers do the best that they can. if anyone is to be criticised it is the system that has promoted the situation in the black community.
the system that has torn our family structure apart. the system of white supremacy has been destroying black families since slavery.

lets fight that system rather than each other.

the system of global white supremacy does



MA`AT HOTEP

It has always been and always will be a "Fact"...that it takes a village to raise a child. Or today we can call that a "Community". What has happen to our communities across the U.S. is the same thing that has been going on from the beginning and that is for the systematic destruction of the "Quality" of life for the so-called African or Blacks.

We must know by now that the system of white supremacy has no concern what ever for the well being of the Black or any other people of color. History is the "Evidence" and there is no other examples of anything other wise to the contrary that can tell us anything different concerning what is "Fact".

History tells us and shows all of us what happens when black people who are just like every one else and even more so when it comes to "Family, Community, Spirituality etc."...tries to build a life here in the U.S. Every time this has happen...the "Racist" elements that seem to take over and set to destroy what ever it is "We" build.

Example after example are documented through out the pages of history...such as "Rose Wood and Tulsa Oaklahoma"...just to name two...there is no need to name the others because we know the story of these sick beings that hates to see black people do anything for them selves.

In the words of our great brother "Neely Fuller"..."EVERY THING THAT GOES WRONG IN THE SYSTEM OF WHITE SUPREMACY IS THE FAULT OF THE OWNERS OF THE SYSTEM OF WHITE SUPREMACY". Remember...Mr and Mrs Black...you don't own a thing...nor do you control a thing unless you control and own yourself "First"!!!

If we were left to our own devices...we would clean up our own "Mess" right away. We would come together right away and start to do what our ancestors did hundreds, thousands and even millions of years ago...before the time of the "Great Destroyer / Invasions"...that keeps us discombobulated and at their lack of mercy.

We are not alone because we have Ancestors but we must get to know our selves so that we can save ourselves and our children's future! We can do it but we must find that solution to our collective problem of ridding ourselves of the intrusions into our collective "Family Life" by a people who don't have our best interest at heart...nor will they ever.

The day is just around the corner...when we will take matters into our own hands as it should be...and stop the infiltration of "Racist, Perverted, Fake and Illusionary white ideas of any kind...into our collective "Minds".

Then and only then...will "We" stop...raising weak Black men and women!


Ase`

i apologize if my moving from the general to the specific has confused you.
while it is better to have both parents around and many single mothers do struggle, it is also true that not all have a bad outcome.

i was abandoned by my mother who had mental problems and i was raised collectively by my grandmother and my aunts.
in my case, i was never weak but it did take me a long time to figure out how to be a man.

single mothers do the best that they can. if anyone is to be criticised it is the system that has promoted the situation in the black community.
the system that has torn our family structure apart. the system of white supremacy has been destroying black families since slavery.

lets fight that system rather than each other.

The system of white supremacy has been in affect century after century. As a people, we have had to maneuver within and around that system for as long.

Freed slaves traveled even by foot to search for relatives sold away in order to reunify their families which had been torn apart by that white supremacy system.

Even within that supremacist system, Blacks strove to preserve/maintain some semblance of the family unit. When possible, fathers worked extra jobs for pay to buy the freedom of their wives, children and elders; and when some escaped, they returned to steal away others.

The white supremacy system is a constant. The onus of positive counter behavior falls upon us to heal and strengthen our Black families.

The system of white supremacy has been in affect century after century. As a people, we have had to maneuver within and around that system for as long.

Freed slaves traveled even by foot to search for relatives sold away in order to reunify their families which had been torn apart by that white supremacy system.

Even within that supremacist system, Blacks strove to preserve/maintain some semblance of the family unit. When possible, fathers worked extra jobs for pay to buy the freedom of their wives, children and elders; and when some escaped, they returned to steal away others.

The white supremacy system is a constant. The onus of positive counter behavior falls upon us to heal and strengthen our Black families.



Exactly! We have to hold each other accountable and responible. I always tell my son that he represents me and others that look like him he has a choice to either make us look bad or good!

The white supremacy system is a constant..

the problem with some things that are a constant is that some times we take them for granted and sometimes we forget about them.
let us not forget that pressure is always pressing down on us.
some of us are harmed and don't know how. never forget.



We have to hold each other accountable and responsible.
and while we do that we should not forget to hold the global system of white supremacy accountable.

the problem with some things that are a constant is that some times we take them for granted and sometimes we forget about them.
let us not forget that pressure is always pressing down on us.
some of us are harmed and don't know how. never forget.



The pressure is also a constant. We see it, feel it and live with it everyday.

If white supremacy is the culprit, what is the solution?

and while we do that we should not forget to hold the global system of white supremacy accountable.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging and confronting the role of white supremacy on our condition, but we must, for our own edification, differentiate between those things we have control over and those things we attempt to use a blanket race card defense for.

Lets take the family, as an example. While it is true white supremacy has had a devastating effect on the black family, I truely don't think a grown black man can claim white supremacy as the reason he would father multiple children by multiple mothers then not be a man, step up to the plate and provide for those children materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging and confronting the role of white supremacy on our condition, but we must, for our own edification, differentiate between those things we have control over and those things we attempt to use a blanket race card defense for.

Lets take the family, as an example. While it is true white supremacy has had a devastating effect on the black family, I truely don't think a grown black man can claim white supremacy as the reason he would father multiple children by multiple mothers then not be a man, step up to the plate and provide for those children materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

the owner of the system of white supremacy is responsible for everything that goes on in that system.

If white supremacy is the culprit, what is the solution?

the white man is the problem, the black man is the solution.
the first step is to make black people aware of the dynamics or the challenge that we face. when black people are aware of the true enemy at the gates we will channel our energy away from distractions and focus on the devil. the devil cannot fool you if you are looking right at him. his game is not that tight. so i would say the major solution is awareness. sunshine is the best disinfectant.

the owner of the system of white supremacy is responsible for everything that goes on in that system.

Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

No offense, but canned answers will not provide the level of details needed to produce actionable paths to our goals. So, I ask that you please address the questions I have posed relevantly and within the context of the subject of this thread. Have we been raising weak black men?

Most of us are aware of the system of white supremacy, but the real deal is that white supremacy does not control our individual actions. So, awareness is important, but not an answer in itself. If we are strong black men, we always have the choice to do RIGHT regardless of the situation before us. At least that has been my experience, I do not recall being in a situation where I did not have the option to do the right thing. This is especially true when it comes to a choice between doing things that were destructive to me, my family, or my people. Are we weak or strong? I submit that we are strong, and as such can ALWAYS choose to do right by ourselves, our families, and our people.

we always have the choice to do RIGHT
what is "right"? and where did you learn that?

during a city festival I saw three rastas with their male child in tow. The baby was carrying a balloon gun. Inside I thought to myself, this is part of the problem. Our young boys learn that guns and warfare are toys, and then we wonder why some of them grow up to be violent. With the level of violence in the streets of America, and back home, I would think we would be wanting to raise men who are thinkers, rather than soldiers, but that's just my HO.

Brother James, I agree that the WPS is a huge influence: RELIGION is at the top of this mind wash, and lack of knowledge of self coming in second. Selfishness, repressed anger, and a refusal to grow up are internal weaknesses that don't do any favors.

I do wonder why we use the term single mothers, instead of single parents? I realize that the majority of one parent households are mothers, but the fathers who are raising children alone ought to be recognized rather than ignored and further isolated.

Some parents have inappropriate relationships with their children on emotional levels, and although I don't know how prevalent it is, I have seen it played out between a mother and her son. When he was getting married, the mother told the fiancee that she was "stealing her best friend". At 24, this young man had grown up to replace the absent father, his mamma told him he was the man of the house when he was still a boy.

His marriage failed, for a few reasons. His anger being a huge part of it, and the mother in law's bad sideline advice having another contribution.

From wikipedia emotional incest is considered:
Covert incest was defined in the 1980s[2] as an emotionally abusive[6] relationship between a parent (or step-parent) and child that does not involve incest or sexual intercourse, though it involves similar interpersonal dynamics as a relationship between sexual partners;[2][7][8] it has also been described as a parent responding to a child's love with adult sexuality.[9] Problems between parents often facilitate covert incest; as the parents distance themselves from each other both physically and emotionally, one parent may begin focusing on his/her child. The child becomes the surrogate partner and source of emotional support for the parent.[10] The abusing parent may also be afraid or unable to meet their needs through a relationship with another adult.[6] Alcoholism and other substance addictions are also associated with the occurrence of covert incest.[11][4]

Covert incest occurs when a parent is unable or unwilling to maintain a relationship with another adult and forces the emotional role of a spouse onto their child instead.[6] The child's needs are ignored and instead the relationship exists solely to meet the needs of the parent[12] and the adult may not be aware of the issues created by their actions.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

I think that single mothers / fathers are actually doing a very good job here in Canada. One of the wisest, kindest men I ever had the pleasure of knowing was raised by his mom alone, and bar none this man is a gift to his community. Another young man whose parents had split, actually got into gangs as a young adolescent, only to have the community come and rescue him. Today he is a proud parent, and engaged to a beautiful African girl.
And lastly, my cousin who is now in her late forties raised her son with the support of her family, and he graduated high school, doesn't ever get into trouble, and has a bright future. She worked at a bank for over 20 years, was one of the first Black managers in that bank and never looked back.
So, I see a lot of success stories here, and of course plan to be one of them. Because what we focus on we become, so i have no time for negativity and low expectations.

There are definately some fatalistic viewpoints about single mothers floating around here. I ask us to consider how successful the children are from two parent homes? Do they end up in jail, or unemployed, or addicted to substances, or is it just one parent homes? Amazingly, no single parent has taken their life and the life of their children during this recession, but a lot of fathers who were considered successful did just that. Hmmm.... i guess that the WPS again, breaking down the Black man until he just can't cope and is forced to confront his emotional inadequecies through violence.

Okay then.

Brother Tribal House I'd like to address some points in your first post:


"One one of the other message boards I am one of the brothers told us how one day while in the kitchen with his mom and aunt. His aunt says to his mother he was going to end up with a white girl and the aunt reasoning behind saying that was because he nephew(the brotha) was too nice for black women."

This is an example of white supremacy at work. The mental chains are being transplanted onto the child, with a very disturbing message about Black womben. SMH... However, it's not uncommon that I've heard some real ignorant messages from Black womben to their sons about Black womben, I think that in these cases the de-humanizing of our Wombanhood and our Blackness destroys the self-worth and is then imprinted onto the children. So, even if he grows up to be attracted to a Sister he will subconsciously believe that he skin color determines how "nice" he has to be to interact with her.

Sisters could help each other out so much by making a effort to form relationship with males no matter how platonic it is. Not to mention children whether boys or girls do not need to be sitting their butts in beauty salons or barshops directly in earshot of the gossiping going on. If you have a boy and he has to get his haircut don't drop him off and leave.

Have to disagree with you on this. We will do ourselves the service of supporting one another, not entering into "friendships" with men. First off, there are too many predators amongst our communities to allow someone access to your child. It's not fair, but the reality is that a man who walks away from his family can continue to have a social life just like he had before. But just because he chose to not protect his child's mother, and raise his child, doesn't mean that she should post the position as open.

Let me relay a story about my friend Simone. Simone is early thirties, very attractive, and fun to talk with. She recently left her baby girl with me, so she could make an appointment downtown. Well, she arrived from the train station early, and decided to sit amongst the benches in the park and take in the beautiful day. A Sudanese man, Black as indigo looked at her, and she doesn't break a stare, so he decided there was room to meet her. They sat and spoke or a few minutes, talking about the history of Sudan, and how he liked being in Canada. The man's name was Abraham, and she said he was polite and quiet spoken. She told him she had a family, and he asked to take her to dinner anyway. She declined, expressing once more that she had a family at home that depends on her, but thanked him for the offer.

Simone said to me, "I'm not a single mother. I'm a womban with a family." Although the father isn't present, the vibration of being "single" just isn't accurate. The word single denotes availability, and hence this is where the trap lies. If you have formed a family, and it did not grow it's okay, but both parents cannot go back to being single. Single also implies no attachments or commitments, and children are the biggest commitment we can have.

I'm not suggesting that the parent who raises the child, ought to be cut off from socializing, friends and adult environments. What I am suggesting is that these activities and friends remain outside of the domain of the home - for the safety and protection of the child. Again, because the father may be absent does not mean that the need for protection is also absent, it is actually even higher here so that the family is not a target of merciless predators and scumbags.

The biggest obstacle womben face in this world, is being womben. We don't make as much money, and we are trapped in a reality of hypocrisy and reproductive control. The Christians, the Muslims all adhere to the belief that a wife has a "duty" to her husband (sexually) and vice versa. This is a spiritual law to control a man's access to sex in exchange for the illusion of security. This is a mandate of control over a womban's body - whether Christian womban want to recognize it or not, that's what it is. So many womben have willingly obliged this "spiritual law" because we know the alternative reality. Where men are strong enough to take what they want, and have done so time and time again. So, we think we win this compromise when we save ourselves for Mr. Right, and vow to love him so completely that whenever he wants to be intimate we are divinely instructed to oblige. In return for our compliance, he ought to keep a roof over our heads, and not beat us into a stupor or allow another man to do the same.

When womben decree their independence from the doctrines of religion, society turns a blind eye to the terror they face, being raped, beaten, sodomized, verbally degraded and emotionally vampirized. The womben on the motherland, the children of the world are crying - can we hear them? Or shall we be so ignorant to blame their condition on their autonomy from Christ and the "Great White Way"?

Sadly, the Caucasian race recognizes the value of it's womben and her reproductive merit. Black womben are constantly told that their eggs, their reproductive material is worthless - hence the rate of abortion and the ability of male mates to walk away reinforcing the dis-eased mentality.
Cacuasians have a term for those whose genetic material isn't worth protecting or saving - they call them trash, white trash. There is no equivalent in the Black world, because we haven't that hierarchy of distinction. We no longer seek pedigree for the advancement of our people, but for the pleasure and approval of the White Power System.

The real stink behind this, is that White people want Black children, and have proven how far they are willing to go to get at our genes. If our men and womben cannot and do not want to wake up and protect the most valuable assets on the planet, then I don't know what to say. A marriage license isn't going to give someone the enlightenment to overstand why his or her commitment is crucial to cultural survival, or genetic advancement. Nope it's not.

Unless both parents have equal access to live balanced full lives, our children will inherit the imbalanced equation and continue to solve it on their own.

during a city festival I saw three rastas with their male child in tow. The baby was carrying a balloon gun. Inside I thought to myself, this is part of the problem. Our young boys learn that guns and warfare are toys, and then we wonder why some of them grow up to be violent. With the level of violence in the streets of America, and back home, I would think we would be wanting to raise men who are thinkers, rather than soldiers, but that's just my HO.

Brother James, I agree that the WPS is a huge influence: RELIGION is at the top of this mind wash, and lack of knowledge of self coming in second. Selfishness, repressed anger, and a refusal to grow up are internal weaknesses that don't do any favors.

I do wonder why we use the term single mothers, instead of single parents? I realize that the majority of one parent households are mothers, but the fathers who are raising children alone ought to be recognized rather than ignored and further isolated.

Some parents have inappropriate relationships with their children on emotional levels, and although I don't know how prevalent it is, I have seen it played out between a mother and her son. When he was getting married, the mother told the fiancee that she was "stealing her best friend". At 24, this young man had grown up to replace the absent father, his mamma told him he was the man of the house when he was still a boy.

His marriage failed, for a few reasons. His anger being a huge part of it, and the mother in law's bad sideline advice having another contribution.

From wikipedia emotional incest is considered:
Covert incest was defined in the 1980s[2] as an emotionally abusive[6] relationship between a parent (or step-parent) and child that does not involve incest or sexual intercourse, though it involves similar interpersonal dynamics as a relationship between sexual partners;[2][7][8] it has also been described as a parent responding to a child's love with adult sexuality.[9] Problems between parents often facilitate covert incest; as the parents distance themselves from each other both physically and emotionally, one parent may begin focusing on his/her child. The child becomes the surrogate partner and source of emotional support for the parent.[10] The abusing parent may also be afraid or unable to meet their needs through a relationship with another adult.[6] Alcoholism and other substance addictions are also associated with the occurrence of covert incest.[11][4]

Covert incest occurs when a parent is unable or unwilling to maintain a relationship with another adult and forces the emotional role of a spouse onto their child instead.[6] The child's needs are ignored and instead the relationship exists solely to meet the needs of the parent[12] and the adult may not be aware of the issues created by their actions.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

I think that single mothers / fathers are actually doing a very good job here in Canada. One of the wisest, kindest men I ever had the pleasure of knowing was raised by his mom alone, and bar none this man is a gift to his community. Another young man whose parents had split, actually got into gangs as a young adolescent, only to have the community come and rescue him. Today he is a proud parent, and engaged to a beautiful African girl.
And lastly, my cousin who is now in her late forties raised her son with the support of her family, and he graduated high school, doesn't ever get into trouble, and has a bright future. She worked at a bank for over 20 years, was one of the first Black managers in that bank and never looked back.
So, I see a lot of success stories here, and of course plan to be one of them. Because what we focus on we become, so i have no time for negativity and low expectations.

There are definately some fatalistic viewpoints about single mothers floating around here. I ask us to consider how successful the children are from two parent homes? Do they end up in jail, or unemployed, or addicted to substances, or is it just one parent homes? Amazingly, no single parent has taken their life and the life of their children during this recession, but a lot of fathers who were considered successful did just that. Hmmm.... i guess that the WPS again, breaking down the Black man until he just can't cope and is forced to confront his emotional inadequecies through violence.

Okay then.

Brother Tribal House I'd like to address some points in your first post:



This is an example of white supremacy at work. The mental chains are being transplanted onto the child, with a very disturbing message about Black womben. SMH... However, it's not uncommon that I've heard some real ignorant messages from Black womben to their sons about Black womben, I think that in these cases the de-humanizing of our Wombanhood and our Blackness destroys the self-worth and is then imprinted onto the children. So, even if he grows up to be attracted to a Sister he will subconsciously believe that he skin color determines how "nice" he has to be to interact with her.



Have to disagree with you on this. We will do ourselves the service of supporting one another, not entering into "friendships" with men. First off, there are too many predators amongst our communities to allow someone access to your child. It's not fair, but the reality is that a man who walks away from his family can continue to have a social life just like he had before. But just because he chose to not protect his child's mother, and raise his child, doesn't mean that she should post the position as open.

Let me relay a story about my friend Simone. Simone is early thirties, very attractive, and fun to talk with. She recently left her baby girl with me, so she could make an appointment downtown. Well, she arrived from the train station early, and decided to sit amongst the benches in the park and take in the beautiful day. A Sudanese man, Black as indigo looked at her, and she doesn't break a stare, so he decided there was room to meet her. They sat and spoke or a few minutes, talking about the history of Sudan, and how he liked being in Canada. The man's name was Abraham, and she said he was polite and quiet spoken. She told him she had a family, and he asked to take her to dinner anyway. She declined, expressing once more that she had a family at home that depends on her, but thanked him for the offer.

Simone said to me, "I'm not a single mother. I'm a womban with a family." Although the father isn't present, the vibration of being "single" just isn't accurate. The word single denotes availability, and hence this is where the trap lies. If you have formed a family, and it did not grow it's okay, but both parents cannot go back to being single. Single also implies no attachments or commitments, and children are the biggest commitment we can have.

I'm not suggesting that the parent who raises the child, ought to be cut off from socializing, friends and adult environments. What I am suggesting is that these activities and friends remain outside of the domain of the home - for the safety and protection of the child. Again, because the father may be absent does not mean that the need for protection is also absent, it is actually even higher here so that the family is not a target of merciless predators and scumbags.

The biggest obstacle womben face in this world, is being womben. We don't make as much money, and we are trapped in a reality of hypocrisy and reproductive control. The Christians, the Muslims all adhere to the belief that a wife has a "duty" to her husband (sexually) and vice versa. This is a spiritual law to control a man's access to sex in exchange for the illusion of security. This is a mandate of control over a womban's body - whether Christian womban want to recognize it or not, that's what it is. So many womben have willingly obliged this "spiritual law" because we know the alternative reality. Where men are strong enough to take what they want, and have done so time and time again. So, we think we win this compromise when we save ourselves for Mr. Right, and vow to love him so completely that whenever he wants to be intimate we are divinely instructed to oblige. In return for our compliance, he ought to keep a roof over our heads, and not beat us into a stupor or allow another man to do the same.

When womben decree their independence from the doctrines of religion, society turns a blind eye to the terror they face, being raped, beaten, sodomized, verbally degraded and emotionally vampirized. The womben on the motherland, the children of the world are crying - can we hear them? Or shall we be so ignorant to blame their condition on their autonomy from Christ and the "Great White Way"?

Sadly, the Caucasian race recognizes the value of it's womben and her reproductive merit. Black womben are constantly told that their eggs, their reproductive material is worthless - hence the rate of abortion and the ability of male mates to walk away reinforcing the dis-eased mentality.
Cacuasians have a term for those whose genetic material isn't worth protecting or saving - they call them trash, white trash. There is no equivalent in the Black world, because we haven't that hierarchy of distinction. We no longer seek pedigree for the advancement of our people, but for the pleasure and approval of the White Power System.

The real stink behind this, is that White people want Black children, and have proven how far they are willing to go to get at our genes. If our men and womben cannot and do not want to wake up and protect the most valuable assets on the planet, then I don't know what to say. A marriage license isn't going to give someone the enlightenment to overstand why his or her commitment is crucial to cultural survival, or genetic advancement. Nope it's not.

Unless both parents have equal access to live balanced full lives, our children will inherit the imbalanced equation and continue to solve it on their own.


I understand the level of white supremacy but we also have to take some individual choices for ourselves and our community. I think you are aware that your country of Canada has a different dynamic than exists in the United States. I was raised up northeastern US in the inner city as well as spending some years in the south. I live in the south now. There is a differing dynamic for those living in the north and down south. I'm not suggesting just letting any old man that comes into the child's life. But be willing to allow a man in if you notice your child gravitates to him. When I take my son to the park, I have plenty of young children that come up to be played with or pushed on the swing because their mothers pretty much are occupied on their cells, in the car with the a/c, or chatting it up. I"m not saying that a woman should post a position open of looking for a father but she should be open to him having male figures that are postive. Many different teachings could do a child wonders. One man even a father can't cover everything. Just because a father is in the life doesn't mean he is a good influence.

I think alot of our women are so wrapped up into themselves they are not aware of the long term conditioning they are doing to their children. I especially don't think highly of this whole beauty salon mindset with all the gossip that go on and the kids are right there. The same goes for the barbershop. A separate area for children would be wonderful they don't need ot be within earshot of adult conversations.

In regard to spirituality or what gets intertwined as spirituality which is actually religion. A old episode of Gideon's Crossing is stuck in my mind as the older white female patient says to the main character he should know or remember his ten commandments. Since he comes from a church going race.
That term church going race has stuck in my head and its true, we have been conditioned for generations since slavery to look for the answers within a book and to look at a mythical invisible figure that if you think about it we are conditioned to see as a white male. Its sad to say but the least educated of our people tend to be the more religious of us and the more educated of us tend to be least religious. Its easy for us to follow something that has been passed down than to ask questions as so many of us have and to find out that we have rocked the boat. I don't want to disparage our sisters but with a so-called 70% rate of being single and if you look at enough personal ads and hear the talk, a bar as been set for searching for this elusive god-fearing man. In my experience this so called god-fearing man is one that has no true backbone and lets the sister have her way and you know how people are you have a interest in something when its a challenge but once you overcome that challenge your interest start to waver. Alot of our sisters are more infatuated with the hunt of these so called good brothers, god-fearing man, or a man that meets their level because it allows the status quo mindset to maintain itself. The thrill of the hunt is more exciting and interesting than the capture itself.

what is "right"? and where did you learn that?

For the purpose of this discussion, can we agree that "right" is the course of action that is not DESTRUCTIVE towards a mans own person, his family, or his community?

As an example, selling crack or other dangerous drugs can NEVER be "right" because it is destructive towards his own community if it is a Black man selling drugs within his own community. Furthermore, if he is a father and husband, he is jepordizing his responsibility in these positions, by jepordizing his freedom.

Knowing what is "right" is not rocket science. If you place your hand on the hot stove, that destructive result is a clear indication that it was wrong. Likewise, any course of action that has a very high statistically destructive result is obviously not "right" for us as black men, or any man for that matter.

I do not believe that we are brainwashed beyond the ability to exercise free will. Is this your assertion, that Black Americans are brain washed beyond the ability to make positive/right choices?

[QUOTE=phynxofkmt;590093][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Olive"]during a city festival I saw three rastas with their male child in tow. The baby was carrying a balloon gun. Inside I thought to myself, this is part of the problem. Our young boys learn that guns and warfare are toys, and then we wonder why some of them grow up to be violent. With the level of violence in the streets of America, and back home, I would think we would be wanting to raise men who are thinkers, rather than soldiers, but that's just my HO.


I want to put the whole gun thing in perspective because in some parts of the United States namely if you grew up in rural(country) areas many boys were taught how to handle and shoot a weapon responsibly. In many tribes in africa the same has been the case with hunting with spears. Weapons and males have gone hand in hand for centuries. In the military some of the best marksman have been men from country areas where hunting growing up is rite of passage. Our young boys in the inner cities are not being properly trained how to be a man and they are obtaining weapons with a idea that weapons gives them power. You take a young boy with no positive male influence in his life and let him hang in the street unsupervised he will pick up on the rules of the street. I remember one time in my neck of the woods back home, me and my friends were on the stoop of his apt building around the corner comes this guy and he is being chased by another guy who is shooting at him and of course we are ducking for cover but it looks like he was missing him. These young boys are growing up to be violent because they are not being taught in their own homes how to deal with their emotions. How can they when they are growing up in a society that dealing with your emotions is a sign of weakness. When the young boys are in a single parent household. The mother puts the responsibility of manhood on the boys, she equates certain behaviors his physical features as remindering her of his father, making him feel like he has to conform to what his mom wants for him. Now its worse because our young boys are growing up with a form of music that is everywhere so because they don't have a dad in their life they emulate the actions and behaviors of the hip hop culture that has gone mainstream. There is a video floating around with a group of young boys in a room and they are all practicing sexual acts with imaginary women.
The young boys need positive role models not rappers who only change their tune after they made their money after amassing a fortune on music with a negative lyrical content. i have personally been asked to substitute teach and the one guy said I should look into coming into teaching. I thought about it for quick sec and I have a few friends that have teached or are teaching. Outside of what little they get paid. You are taking your freedom in your own hands and sanity. Between the possible cuthroat attitudes of other teachers if you are actually trying to make a difference or having to deal with false accusations. A friend of mine has a hidden camera in his room just for his own safety and protection if he is accused of sexual harrasment of a student. Its sad that just a accusation no matter how false gets you in hot water.

I understand the level of white supremacy but we also have to take some individual choices for ourselves and our community. I think you are aware that your country of Canada has a different dynamic than exists in the United States. I was raised up northeastern US in the inner city as well as spending some years in the south. I live in the south now. There is a differing dynamic for those living in the north and down south. I'm not suggesting just letting any old man that comes into the child's life. But be willing to allow a man in if you notice your child gravitates to him. When I take my son to the park, I have plenty of young children that come up to be played with or pushed on the swing because their mothers pretty much are occupied on their cells, in the car with the a/c, or chatting it up. I"m not saying that a woman should post a position open of looking for a father but she should be open to him having male figures that are postive. Many different teachings could do a child wonders. One man even a father can't cover everything. Just because a father is in the life doesn't mean he is a good influence.

I think alot of our women are so wrapped up into themselves they are not aware of the long term conditioning they are doing to their children. I especially don't think highly of this whole beauty salon mindset with all the gossip that go on and the kids are right there. The same goes for the barbershop. A separate area for children would be wonderful they don't need ot be within earshot of adult conversations.

In regard to spirituality or what gets intertwined as spirituality which is actually religion. A old episode of Gideon's Crossing is stuck in my mind as the older white female patient says to the main character he should know or remember his ten commandments. Since he comes from a church going race.
That term church going race has stuck in my head and its true, we have been conditioned for generations since slavery to look for the answers within a book and to look at a mythical invisible figure that if you think about it we are conditioned to see as a white male. Its sad to say but the least educated of our people tend to be the more religious of us and the more educated of us tend to be least religious. Its easy for us to follow something that has been passed down than to ask questions as so many of us have and to find out that we have rocked the boat. I don't want to disparage our sisters but with a so-called 70% rate of being single and if you look at enough personal ads and hear the talk, a bar as been set for searching for this elusive god-fearing man. In my experience this so called god-fearing man is one that has no true backbone and lets the sister have her way and you know how people are you have a interest in something when its a challenge but once you overcome that challenge your interest start to waver. Alot of our sisters are more infatuated with the hunt of these so called good brothers, god-fearing man, or a man that meets their level because it allows the status quo mindset to maintain itself. The thrill of the hunt is more exciting and interesting than the capture itself.

all you do is vent negative against black people.
do you have anything more than that to bring to the table?

I want to put the whole gun thing in perspective because in some parts of the United States namely if you grew up in rural(country) areas many boys were taught how to handle and shoot a weapon responsibly. In many tribes in africa the same has been the case with hunting with spears. Weapons and males have gone hand in hand for centuries. In the military some of the best marksman have been men from country areas where hunting growing up is rite of passage.

Our young boys in the inner cities are not being properly trained how to be a man and they are obtaining weapons with a idea that weapons gives them power. Right, which is why giving the babies toy guns is simply irresponsible. You were concerned about the way the mother's would dress the child in hip hop clothing, allowing him to feel comfortable with it, but you don't make the same connection with weapons? :10500: And the biggest problem for any child is growing up in the "inner city". I've seen what is called the inner city, and it was not pleasant or easy, but when I compared it to the poverty in Guyana, it was a walk in the park.


You take a young boy with no positive male influence in his life and let him hang in the street unsupervised he will pick up on the rules of the street.Right here, you make my point for me. First off, if the child has positive authority figures in his life, with or without them being male, he will still manage to respect himself and others. Unsupervised children are the absence of any positive figures, not just male influences. I have seen this while I was in East Orange New Jersey. Broke my heart until I though I couldn't stop crying. Babies and young ones playing in the street until all hours of the night. I had never seen that before. To me, this wasn't a Black mother thing, or even a "Black" thing, this was a poverty thing.

I looked after a little boy who was 4 years old while I was visiting some folks. Sweetest little boy, beautiful face, bright eyes, but he rarely smiled. He would however, pinch and punch at you, and wear a look on his face that told you that life had already thrown him too much hardship. Well, one day his momma told me that she had a nervous breakdown and had punched him in his face when he was two. I stayed composed but inside I crumbled for them both. I offered them both what I had, and what I felt they needed. Love, attention and a little extra support in the form of my two hands. Amazing what cleaning up the house for a tired single mom can do for her spirit; walking her child to school, or picking him up from the dayhome.... so many little chores to do for a womban to make her life bearable. But when the men walk out cuz they're just too damned important to stay and do those little things, then we want to blame the womban for not coping as a work mule. hmpf.

The reality is that not all children that come from one parent homes become a case job. The reality is that poverty has more to do with hardship than anything else. Have you noticed the success rate of trailer park white people? There' no better, but you don't see middle class and rich whites using the poor among them as a measuring rod of standard. So why do we do it? I don't have a "cure" for poverty. All I know is that where I found hard economic times, I also found a need for LOVE.

Where I come from, my tribe, we take care of each other and keep each other from falling into the cracks. I am proud of that, because that is what will save me and mine. I've learned that anyone who will endanger the well being of me and my son, is not a loving person, and I ain't got no feelings of empathy or forgiveness to send their way. Poverty devastates generations of people, and because they know they don't have the knowledge, the resources or the willpower to change anything, they stop loving themselves and their families - doing just enough to get by. That's really part of the problem in some communities, and in our people. We all want to claim the excellence of Kemet, and the achievement of Kush, resonate with the intelligence of the Dogon, but we also want to sit on our tush and hope it will just happen. Complacency and mediocrity is a prison of the mind, that no one but the self can free you from.

...These young boys are growing up to be violent because they are not being taught in their own homes how to deal with their emotions. How can they when they are growing up in a society that dealing with your emotions is a sign of weakness.Some of the parents don't know how to handle their emotions. There are no good and bad emotions, there are only good and bad reactions to them. Children who witness or experience violence become violent. And some parents are violent criminals who ought to never been able to reproduce or bring innocent life into the world.


Dealing with your emotions is not a sign of weakness..... I'm not sure what society you're referring to here.

When the young boys are in a single parent household. The mother puts the responsibility of manhood on the boys, she equates certain behaviors his physical features as remindering her of his father, making him feel like he has to conform to what his mom wants for him. Are you talking about educated womben here, because again, I think the standard of measure is extremely low, and not representational of Black womben around the globe. I don't relate to what you're saying here, nor do i see much of it in my West Indian communities. Again, though, there isn't the same level of poverty which would breed contempt and hatred from those that are caught up in it.

Now its worse because our young boys are growing up with a form of music that is everywhere so because they don't have a dad in their life they emulate the actions and behaviors of the hip hop culture that has gone mainstream. There is a video floating around with a group of young boys in a room and they are all practicing sexual acts with imaginary women.
And boys with fathers don't fantasize about sex with womben?


The young boys need positive role models not rappers who only change their tune after they made their money after amassing a fortune on music with a negative lyrical content. i have personally been asked to substitute teach and the one guy said I should look into coming into teaching. I thought about it for quick sec and I have a few friends that have teached or are teaching. Outside of what little they get paid. You are taking your freedom in your own hands and sanity. Between the possible cuthroat attitudes of other teachers if you are actually trying to make a difference or having to deal with false accusations. A friend of mine has a hidden camera in his room just for his own safety and protection if he is accused of sexual harrasment of a student. Its sad that just a accusation no matter how false gets you in hot water.And this has something to do with their mothers? If you are considering teaching, please read "Kill Them Before They Grow", and "The Developmental Psychology of the Black Child"

I don't agree with your assessment, and I think you're missing the larger picture, but you're entitled to feel the way you do.

all you do is vent negative against black people.
do you have anything more to bring to the table?

i hold us to a higher standard and like I tell my son when he steps outside he represents us and he could either make us look bad or good. I have plenty to bring to the table and have. I am not venting negative against our people, I am calling us on our behavior. I actually go into detail not always saying its the global white supremacy.

I have led a boy scout troop mostly black youth as assistant scout master.

I have 17 and 19 year old boys who are brothers who I keep in contact with who consider me the closes thing to a father they ever had. I came into their life when they were 7 and 9. There mother was too busy running around with her church pastor.

I had started a online group for black single fathers like myseslf.

When my hours got cut at work from 60 hours to 40 I volunteered at my sons school on my off hours. I also was on the school SAC board.

This upcoming year my son's 3rd year of playing youth soccer will be my first full year as one of the coaches for the entire season.

If I can get somethings worked out I would love to go back to his old school and volunteer again and try for one of the local scout groups.

When I go to the park I make myself available to other children if they ask my assistance.

I do plenty and last but not least if I'm on the bus I don't hesitate to give my seat to a woman or a elderly person.
For the record there is alot more I would love to do but I have to be careful of how I extend myself and in what way and with whom. This area exist a expectation that if you are black you must or are supposed to be christian and I mean by us. I already lost my job last year due to a certain person at my job snooping coming across a old profile listing my earth based spiritual interest and using that as a reason to get me fired but under other pretenses which are now coming to light as having been false in the first place. Only a limited number of people here know my beliefs others i just go along with and let them assume or think what they want my beliefs are and generally they assume Im a christian just like them.

In my local area the young haitian men and women meet at on Sunday afternoons in a room to discuss issues relevant to the haitian community, they call it Club Fusion. I have attempted something of that but with something like that but it went nowhere.

Right, which is why giving the babies toy guns is simply irresponsible. You were concerned about the way the mother's would dress the child in hip hop clothing, allowing him to feel comfortable with it, but you don't make the same connection with weapons? :10500: And the biggest problem for any child is growing up in the "inner city". I've seen what is called the inner city, and it was not pleasant or easy, but when I compared it to the poverty in Guyana, it was a walk in the park.


Right here, you make my point for me. First off, if the child has positive authority figures in his life, with or without them being male, he will still manage to respect himself and others. Unsupervised children are the absence of any positive figures, not just male influences. I have seen this while I was in East Orange New Jersey. Broke my heart until I though I couldn't stop crying. Babies and young ones playing in the street until all hours of the night. I had never seen that before. To me, this wasn't a Black mother thing, or even a "Black" thing, this was a poverty thing.

I looked after a little boy who was 4 years old while I was visiting some folks. Sweetest little boy, beautiful face, bright eyes, but he rarely smiled. He would however, pinch and punch at you, and wear a look on his face that told you that life had already thrown him too much hardship. Well, one day his momma told me that she had a nervous breakdown and had punched him in his face when he was two. I stayed composed but inside I crumbled for them both. I offered them both what I had, and what I felt they needed. Love, attention and a little extra support in the form of my two hands. Amazing what cleaning up the house for a tired single mom can do for her spirit; walking her child to school, or picking him up from the dayhome.... so many little chores to do for a womban to make her life bearable. But when the men walk out cuz they're just too damned important to stay and do those little things, then we want to blame the womban for not coping as a work mule. hmpf.

The reality is that not all children that come from one parent homes become a case job. The reality is that poverty has more to do with hardship than anything else. Have you noticed the success rate of trailer park white people? There' no better, but you don't see middle class and rich whites using the poor among them as a measuring rod of standard. So why do we do it? I don't have a "cure" for poverty. All I know is that where I found hard economic times, I also found a need for LOVE.

Where I come from, my tribe, we take care of each other and keep each other from falling into the cracks. I am proud of that, because that is what will save me and mine. I've learned that anyone who will endanger the well being of me and my son, is not a loving person, and I ain't got no feelings of empathy or forgiveness to send their way. Poverty devastates generations of people, and because they know they don't have the knowledge, the resources or the willpower to change anything, they stop loving themselves and their families - doing just enough to get by. That's really part of the problem in some communities, and in our people. We all want to claim the excellence of Kemet, and the achievement of Kush, resonate with the intelligence of the Dogon, but we also want to sit on our tush and hope it will just happen. Complacency and mediocrity is a prison of the mind, that no one but the self can free you from.

Some of the parents don't know how to handle their emotions. There are no good and bad emotions, there are only good and bad reactions to them. Children who witness or experience violence become violent. And some parents are violent criminals who ought to never been able to reproduce or bring innocent life into the world.


Dealing with your emotions is not a sign of weakness..... I'm not sure what society you're referring to here.

Are you talking about educated womben here, because again, I think the standard of measure is extremely low, and not representational of Black womben around the globe. I don't relate to what you're saying here, nor do i see much of it in my West Indian communities. Again, though, there isn't the same level of poverty which would breed contempt and hatred from those that are caught up in it.

And boys with fathers don't fantasize about sex with womben?


And this has something to do with their mothers? If you are considering teaching, please read "Kill Them Before They Grow", and "The Developmental Psychology of the Black Child"

I don't agree with your assessment, and I think you're missing the larger picture, but you're entitled to feel the way you do.



I'm concerned with the clothing issue as well as the gun issue. The local municipality I live in had passed a ordinance to fine anyone wearing pants off their butt. It was voted on by most of the residents that reside here. I didn't bring up the weapons issue because the child's first impression and role model is the parent. After that is supposed to be the community. Anything a child is given should be supervised whether its a gun or not. At the same time I have seen many young boys at the park start to run up the slide or start to wrestle and gets yelled at because the mother is concerned for his safety which is the mothers job, her child safety. Of course that gets ingrained after a while and these boys start looking for other means as a outlet. I have seen the poverty in Kenya and Rwanda. The problem is they as well as people from the carribbean can come over here with next to nothing and acheive something by hard work and sacrifice.

If a a child is boy he will respond as that positive authority figure was a male. I didn't feel good about being a left handed person seeing everyone was right handed in my youth until my father told me that one of the best baseball players out was left handed, Reggie Jackson. To this day he is my favorite player of all time. A boy is more going to relate to a male than a female. Even as men who may be married if the man is having trouble in his home life and he feels he can't relate or talk to his wife he is going to talk to his boys, father, or male co-workers. Same goes for women who can't relate to her husband.

Some people choose to pick poverty and relish in it. In our communities in regard to education. Wanting to achieve a education was always seen as selling out or trying to be white while being cool was seen as acting black. There will always be those who relish living in poverty its the one that want to try that should be helped and supported. You asked why we do it because we have maintained a victim of mentality and another thing is we still exist in a slave mentality where alot of us think we know the bible as pastor relates it to us more than we know our history and the history generally told are of blacks throughout history that is not threatening to white society. Outside of major metro cities and depending on where you are at you have access to that information. Growing up north I remember all the events, information I was taught, and the study groups that my parents had me and my brother going to late at night. I took that for granted growing up but as a adult I value that information now and its up to me as to what I do with that information. But having been living in the south and not Atlanta I see some major differences that just are not the case for up north.

You are right on the reactions to our emotions, I would love to see more interaction but nowadays at least here we don't excited unless the pastors motivate it and they are pretty much for their own coffers. i wasn't saying that dealing with your emotions is a sign of weakness. I was saying that is pretty much what is taught young males. You never heard anyone say suck it up to the young boys. Maybe not where you are at. I have heard it enough and here in Florida well this is a football factory. Like Santonio Holmes said about his neck of the woods Belle Glade, FL you either sell drugs or you play football.If you know the mindset of the football atmosphere than you know they are saying that. When I lived in Virginia I played football my 10th grade year. I have witnessed pee wee football games that would make you cringe.If you don't mind put into google "Muck Bowl". Its a high school rivalry between Glades Central and Pahokee High School. Out in Belle Glade and Pahokee football is a religion. Both areas have put out large numbers of black males into big name college footbal and the NFL. You also got alot of black males working construction that was all they were taught growing up and didn't make it so was left to pick up the pieces of the broken dream. My own son's soccer league some of us joke they are doing combat soccer the way they play. When I go out I always observe other parents and their dynamic with their children. Some of it is good and some of it is bad. One of my former co-workers had a neighbor that if her young son was crying she would pop him in the chest and tell him to "Man Up" I'm pretty sure even if you haven't heard someone tell their child to suck it up you have at least heard the term Man Up!

I'm not talking about educated women per say I have heard some stuff where the boy is responsible. Here where Im at is one of the richest regions financially in the country. The Carribbean community depending on where you at is doing pretty good. We are not that far from the islands. We have constant people trying to get here by boat. That news report you just heard about with all those haitians on the capsized boat that alot died! That was here. I live right near the beach and saw the anarchy as they rerouted traffic for the emergency vehicles.

Yes boys with fathers fantasize with sex with women, hopefully their fathers are teaching them something. This generations of boys is nothing like the generations of boys coming up when we came up. More than likely I read the books you suggested a long time ago when I found out I was having a boy as well as Black Children and Beating The Odds:How to raise academically succesfull African American Males. Before my son came along I was raising my step-daughter at the time. Like I said before that with those two brothers i came into their life I did alot of activities with them as they grew up. I don't think I am missing the larger picture. I think we have a different perspective one of female and one of male. You are looking at one way and I'm looking at one way. Don't take it personal but like Bootzey said you can't take a boy and raise him up to a man. A man with a strong woman influence in his life can turn out well but just as well turn out like Tyler Perry.

Don't take it personal but like Bootzey said you can't take a boy and raise him up to a man. A man with a strong woman influence in his life can turn out well but just as well turn out like Tyler Perry.
things personally when people tell me what I can or cannot do.

Just a gentle reminder that your duly elected President came from a single parent home,
so our boy has more than just one option for how he turns out. I'm willing to bet in favor of greatness!

And I don't quite get what's wrong with Tyler Perry, thought he was a successful Black man.
The good thing about growing into adulthood is you stop trying to please everybody else, and just live your life.

things personally when people tell me what I can or cannot do.

Just a gentle reminder that your duly elected President came from a single parent home,
so our boy has more than just one option for how he turns out. I'm willing to bet in favor of greatness!

And I don't quite get what's wrong with Tyler Perry, thought he was a successful Black man.
The good thing about growing into adulthood is you stop trying to please everybody else, and just live your life.




Yes he did come from a single parent home but lets not bring him into it. He is more the exception to the rule. Are you forgetting his upbringing was one of white midwestern values.


Yes Tyler Perry is successful who became that by dressing up in a woman suit and did it so well better than anyone else. He also built his empire on the pain and anger of so many sisters. All of his movies done well at the box office except the one that really put brothers in a positive light(Daddy's Little Girl).
Maybe this gets talked about up in your neck of the woods. But there is this mantra going around that all brothers, especially in Atlanta or on the DL. Outside of Atlanta not to many people know for sure but within Atlanta within certain circles he is well known to be on the DL and yet he is practically worshipped like the Pied Piper by our sisters.


Don't take it personally its not a personal attack on you not to raise your son but a woman raising a boy to be a man is more exception than the rule without any other male influences to help along the way.Because you have knowledge and will instill that in your child he stands a chance but also he will need males to relate to. There are plenty boys out there who's parent don't have knowledge or will be wrapped up within themselves or tired from work. I exist in your world and if I took some of the attacks personally I would stopped along time ago. Just a few months I got a new doctor, she was a sister(I try and find our black professionals) and upon the initial intake questions she asked. She got out of line after it came up I had custody of my son, she went from neutral in her attitude toward me and got ice queen and some of her questions were out of line after that. Alot of crap comes my way that I don't take personal I just keep it moving. I used to have a co-worker named Andrella, she was on-call and was working 80 hour weeks. She had 3 kids, her middle child she sent to live with her brother up in S.C. after a while, that child is doing much better in school. Her oldest who is 19 now has two kids already. Her boyfriend used to come over all the time when mom was at work. The youngest who is probably 4 or 5 by now used to have run of the house and on time actually came outside with no clothes on. Luckily i was driving by. His mom was so exhausted she hardly even knew i was there. At the same time she never disciplined this child and though some of the things he would say was funny and got on her oldest brother who is dead now but when he was alive he used to tear that little boys butt up when he got out of line. i was almost like part of the family since I had worked with Andrella and her sister in law.

Even the haitian community leaders at least in South Florida has been addressing the issue of their young males who have become Americanized for lack of a better word. I used to work with two other guards at my location that were both haitian. Hugens who was 21years old raised by both parents,was in community college, went to church, had a girlfriend and very mature, respectful, and responsible. Fritzon on the other hand was 26 and acted like he was 16 years old,was raised by his single mom, went to church, had a girlfriend, immature, irresponsible, and not respectful in a serious way. Both young haitian men but only one I enjoyed working with and talking to(Hugens) Fritzon I had to gut check him a few times. I even dropped him twice on two occasions(I didn't punch him I applied Aikido) with him crossing a line. In the 90 days of him being at the job site the young man acquired a good 9 write ups I want to say. When discussing his father, he only seen him once when he was 11years old but when he finds him he was going to ask him for all the money that he owes him that he wasn't getting growing up.The young man kept a picture of his girlfiriend that were nudes and would go up to some of the guys and show off the pics. Even said to our resident pastor/garage attendant his girlfriend was home waiting for him and she was wet. His nudes pissed off alot of guys.I already told him he was lucky he didn't show me that mess I would of threw it off the building. :smash:

You said about your visit to East Orange and I can imagine what you saw at the same time. The dynamic of East Orange and other cities like that are much better than in some parts of the south. Up in New Jersey each city runs its school district. In Florida the county runs its school district. I could take pictures but at least in what passes for the ghetto here, alot of the schools are designed and look like warehouses while the white school have a more pleasing look to them and plenty of windows. Our schools just don't get the resources of the affluent white schools. Just in my neck of the woods when I was on the board a former neighbor of mine told me the last year prior both her and her husband went around and tried to get parents to come to the meetings, they were pretty much not concerned with coming and pretty young mothers. This was the year before I came on.

I am not venting negative against our people, I am calling us on our behavior.


every word that you have written has been a critique of black people. that is all you have. you do nothing else here.
you must feel that black people have not had enough criticism and you will correct the problem by offering more.

while it is certainly a good thing to be on your best behaviour, in the history of this country black people who were well behaved did not get treated much better than anybody else. when the lynch mob arrived, they did not test for manners.

the issue in this country is racism and class warfare. those on wall street who brought this country to its knees were very well behaved CEOs.
they attended the finest schools. they had the best opportunity. why did they turn out to be robbers and rapists?
the moral equivalent of the street corner thug?

they were following the rules of the system of white supremacy. plunder.

the issue is the global system of white supremacy. that is what blacks have been taught to turn their eyes away from. taught not to challenge.

every word that you have written has been a critique of black people. that is all you have. you do nothing else here.
you must feel that black people have not had enough criticism and you will correct the problem by offering more.

while it is certainly a good thing to be on your best behaviour, in the history of this country black people who were well behaved did not get treated much better than anybody else. when the lynch mob arrived, they did not test for manners.

the issue in this country is racism and class warfare. those on wall street who brought this country to its knees were very well behaved CEOs.
they attended the finest schools. they had the best opportunity. why did they turn out to be robbers and rapists?
the moral equivalent of the street corner thug?


they were following the rules of the system of white supremacy. plunder.

the issue is the global system of white supremacy. that is what blacks have been taught to turn their eyes away from. taught not to challenge.





What would you suggest as I'm waiting for your recommendation? What is the solution you have in mind and what are you doing about things? Keep in mind I have been in the trenches doing my part. As if talking here necessarily equates to action in the street. What you may suggest may be relevant in Phillie but may not equate in my neck of the woods, I guess you missed my suggestion at the attempt at copying the haitian model wih Club Fusion. This is a message board that is all it is nothing more nothing less. I have my own site to deal with. I"m bringing another angle that not to many get to hear. The mythical single father that hardly you get to hear the voice of. We are all adults and can stand some criticism. My take is a unique one and that is what I bring. You either take it or leave it. If I"m out of line I'm sure Destee and the moderators will call me on it or ban me. I'm not hear to reinforce some mass conspiracy that I personally see examples of blacks who do excel. I have worked with some wonderful people who overcome hardship to support their family. How long we going to keep blaming outside forces. Yes it exists but you also have people that overcome the odds, Dr. Ben Carson, Chris Gardener, and others. I have met quite a few extraordinary people of our people that have achieved something. Maybe up in you area you are constantly reminded of some things. That is here as well but you can also struggle and make something as well. I have no problem heaping praise when its warranted. If you perceive my views as harsh get over it, Im doing something within my community more than just talking on a mesage board.

Yes racism and class warfare is a fact of life. Does that stop your individual progress. Maybe where you are at. I can name a few individuals locally that had nothing and busted there ***. I used to work with a haitian man that graduated from medical school in haiti came here not speaking a lick of english and 3 years later is working in a Chiropractors office i used to work for has. He has much love and respect within his community. Even though he is not a licenced medical doctor his own community calls him Doctor. He sends money back to his wife and daughter in haiti, has built a house in haiti. About to go to chiropractors school himself.Eventually he wants to bring them over here. There are island people who face death trying to come over to Florida and if caught get sent back regardless of whether they make it to land or not. You have people who try to come over 3 or 4 times risking their own lives. Not only do they suffer the prejudice from white americans they will also suffer from the prejudice of black americans. Do they give up and crawl under a rock to die, NO! They struggle endlessly. I know a older jamaican man who sells insurance for Met Life has been doing it for 25 years. He came here with nothing and lives in a very affluent community. He has some nice vehicles but yet he drives a non-pleasing car to the office. He came here from England with nothing and now he has amassed alot.

When I worked at that office it took a while for the haitian patients, especially the women to warm up to me and let me work on them. I'm a trained massage therapist. In acquiring the trust I got to learn many things and hear many personal stories of hardship. I refuse to sit on my *** and say **** racism and classism are neve going to let me or my son prevail. I have been through the wringer and back, I admit I made some bad choices and done my share of dirt. I accept that it was my own doing. I have had my share of racism and classism, I know it's working against me. Don't mean I"m going to give up. When school was in I got my *** up went to the beach for my morning beach runs, followed by calisthenics, then hitting up the gym. It would be much easier to go woe is me and that is the same for us. To many of us are going woe is me.

what is "right"? and where did you learn that?

James,

As time permits, please let me know if we were in agreement on "right". If we are not, please let me know what your definition of "right" is.

Oh, I learned what "right" was from my Mother, Grand Father, Grand Mother, aunts and uncles.



The following is just a copy of the previous post that was possibly over looked.

For the purpose of this discussion, can we agree that "right" is the course of action that is not DESTRUCTIVE towards a mans own person, his family, or his community?

As an example, selling crack or other dangerous drugs can NEVER be "right" because it is destructive towards his own community if it is a Black man selling drugs within his own community. Furthermore, if he is a father and husband, he is jepordizing his responsibility in these positions, by jepordizing his freedom.

Knowing what is "right" is not rocket science. If you place your hand on the hot stove, that destructive result is a clear indication that it was wrong. Likewise, any course of action that has a very high statistically destructive result is obviously not "right" for us as black men, or any man for that matter.

I do not believe that we are brainwashed beyond the ability to exercise free will. Is this your assertion, that Black Americans are brain washed beyond the ability to make positive/right choices?

..... We are all adults and can stand some criticism......I'm not hear to reinforce some mass conspiracy that I personally see examples of blacks who do excel. I have worked with some wonderful people who overcome hardship to support their family. How long we going to keep blaming outside forces. Yes it exists but you also have people that overcome the odds.....


:toast:

I do not believe that we are brainwashed beyond the ability to exercise free will.

the most totally brainwashed person in the room is the one who does not believe he is brainwashed.


Is this your assertion, that Black Americans are brain washed beyond the ability to make positive/right choices?

the definition of brainwashing is that it makes you act against your own self interest.
black people as a group have a high incidence of self destructive behaviour.

why is that?

either we have a character defect or we have been brainwashed into self destruction. i believe the later. constant criticizing of black people and "tough love" is no more than an expression of the self hate that we have been taught to feel toward each other. we do not need "tough love", we need self love. there is not one black person in america who has not heard the litany of our faults. how in the world does any intelligent black person think that they can "critique" black people into shape? we are already the most criticised people in the US. white people, asian people, every body has a critique of black behaviour.

i think anyone who says that black people need more criticism is in need of a rethink. what you need to do is criticize the global system of white supremacy.

find a way to beat it. shine some light on the darkness. let's deconstruct the system of white supremacy. deprogram each other.

i notice that many of us cannot even bear to do that. we cannot even talk about the global system of white supremacy.
as soon as one of us points toward it, the masses get all kind of attitude toward that brother. not the system, the one who is pointing to the system.


coincidence?

Yes he did come from a single parent home but lets not bring him into it. He is more the exception to the rule. Are you forgetting his upbringing was one of white midwestern values.

Nope not forgetting he's part Caucasian, or how he was raised since it mirrored my own existence only with a lot less cash and influence. But I think we are insinuating that having some white in our coffee also adds to the potential for our success. Which I really don't have a problem accepting - since white and black do think very differently; it makes sense to me that some bi-cultural children stand a better chance at success than either their white or black counterparts, simply because they see into both worlds, and given the opportunity can actually master both of them.

Yes Tyler Perry is successful who became that by dressing up in a woman suit and did it so well better than anyone else. He also built his empire on the pain and anger of so many sisters. All of his movies done well at the box office except the one that really put brothers in a positive light(Daddy's Little Girl).
Maybe this gets talked about up in your neck of the woods. But there is this mantra going around that all brothers, especially in Atlanta or on the DL. Outside of Atlanta not to many people know for sure but within Atlanta within certain circles he is well known to be on the DL and yet he is practically worshipped like the Pied Piper by our sisters.

So his being potentially on the DL is the result of a single parent home? Um, i personally am not buying that one. But i did get a chance to watch Daddy's Little Girls, and Why Did I Get Married last Night, and I thoroughly enjoyed them both! I'd be proud of any child who can express his creativity and gifts in such an intelligent way.


Don't take it personally its not a personal attack on you not to raise your son but a woman raising a boy to be a man is more exception than the rule without any other male influences to help along the way.

I think what's happening here is a generational effect, like the mother didn't have her daddy, and the father's daddy isn't around either, etc... Male influence is not the end all, and be all. It's the quality of the environment that affects the child, and yes generations of absent fathers probably breeds some ill effects.

I do take the comments personally because it's no secret that I am a single parent. Marginalization is more than a word, it's a belief system that lives because people choose to be the lie rather than the exception.

LOVE is an action word, and you better believe that the only way to teach it, is to behave in loving ways, and be a loving person. That means doing more than enough to get by, but going the distance because excellence is a light that shines through the darkness of despair and hate.

Because you have knowledge and will instill that in your child he stands a chance but also he will need males to relate to. There are plenty boys out there who's parent don't have knowledge or will be wrapped up within themselves or tired from work.

No, knowledge doesn't equate to financial security, so all the knowledge in the world can't save us if we have no resources. What keeps me on the up is my family - straight up. The credit is theirs. My father and my mother have chosen to continue "parenting" me and their grandchild. They have chosen to help me fight my battles, drive me to appointments, babysit when I have to go places (especially places like the social assistance office, etc) and help me feed myself and our son. Some parents would not do this, even if they had the means - they would say, this is your mess, you fix it on your own, or clean it up the best way you know how. So no, it is not knowledge that saves us, it is the presence of LOVE, but thanks for the appreciation.

I used to have a co-worker named Andrella, she was on-call and was working 80 hour weeks. She had 3 kids, her middle child she sent to live with her brother up in S.C. after a while, that child is doing much better in school. Her oldest who is 19 now has two kids already. Her boyfriend used to come over all the time when mom was at work. The youngest who is probably 4 or 5 by now used to have run of the house and on time actually came outside with no clothes on. Luckily i was driving by. His mom was so exhausted she hardly even knew i was there. At the same time she never disciplined this child and though some of the things he would say was funny and got on her oldest brother who is dead now but when he was alive he used to tear that little boys butt up when he got out of line. i was almost like part of the family since I had worked with Andrella and her sister in law.

I know that the tri-state area is the most expensive part of the U.S to find real estate, and from what I saw in Jersey, owning a home is not so easy, and even then, you pay out the nose for them. 80 hours a week is crazy.
Lawyers work 80 hours a week, and at this point I gotta ask what career this womban had to be so locked down to a job? Personally, if life was that tight i'd move to a less expensive state rather than imbalance my life that way.
I'd also have my tubes tied.
Working that many hours, as a man or womban, you don't have time for family so of course there's delinquency in the children, cuz no on is paying attention to them.

Even the haitian community leaders at least in South Florida has been addressing the issue of their young males who have become Americanized for lack of a better word.

I have lost respect for the Haitian culture as a whole, so it's really not a better option than being Americanized.


You said about your visit to East Orange and I can imagine what you saw at the same time. The dynamic of East Orange and other cities like that are much better than in some parts of the south. Up in New Jersey each city runs its school district. In Florida the county runs its school district. I could take pictures but at least in what passes for the ghetto here, alot of the schools are designed and look like warehouses while the white school have a more pleasing look to them and plenty of windows. Our schools just don't get the resources of the affluent white schools. Just in my neck of the woods when I was on the board a former neighbor of mine told me the last year prior both her and her husband went around and tried to get parents to come to the meetings, they were pretty much not concerned with coming and pretty young mothers. This was the year before I came on.

Well, maybe there's something to be said then for integration. What's the point of staying in a community that has nothing to offer for opportunities?
I'm sure that there are people that can afford to move out of their neighborhoods but have a 'loyalty' to the struggle. I have a family member like that. Intelligent, good looking and amiable, but instead of getting out of the area that has kept him down, he feels a noble sentiment about the game, the poverty and the environment. Not my mentality, but like I said before, most of our limitations are the ones we impose on ourselves in an effort to build our identities as hueman beings rather than divine creations.

the most totally brainwashed person in the room is the one who does not believe he is brainwashed.


James,

I am trying to understand your perspective. Because you are not addressing my direct questions, I am not sure if you want me to understand your perspective or blindly accept your perspective as factual.

You asked me about "right" and where I learned what was "right". I answered your question and asked if we could agree on that definition, but you have completely ignored my response and subsequent questions.

I don't question the fact that our plight has had a psycological effect upon us all, but I question the extent of that effect and rather that effect can be applied as a blanket "reason" for all individual blacks who behave destructively to themselves, their families, or their community.

As I mentioned before, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

You ignored these questions in their entirety.



the definition of brainwashing is that it makes you act against your own self interest.
Actually that is not the definition, but I undestand the point you are trying to make. As I stated above, I do not dispute the fact that a pyscological toll has been paid by us as a people.


black people as a group have a high incidence of self destructive behaviour.

why is that?

either we have a character defect or we have been brainwashed into self destruction. i believe the later. constant criticizing of black people and "tough love" is no more than an expression of the self hate that we have been taught to feel toward each other. we do not need "tough love", we need self love. there is not one black person in america who has not heard the litany of our faults. how in the world does any intelligent black person think that they can "critique" black people into shape? we are already the most criticised people in the US. white people, asian people, every body has a critique of black behaviour.

To honestly look at this question, we must look at self destructive behaviour in all people groups. Is self destructive behavior in white people a "character defect"?

I want to honestly look at your suggestion that we can "self love" black people into shape. I am not totally against it, I just dont have a clear understanding of how effective your method would be in stopping the real self destruction we see on our streets, in our families, and in our communities. Can you give me a practical example of how this tactic would be deployed?



i think anyone who says that black people need more criticism is in need of a rethink. what you need to do is criticize the global system of white supremacy.

I am willing to rethink for the sake of results. I am not sure what you consider "criticism", but I don't consider an honest appraisal of our condition and accepting our portion of the responsibility as "criticism". I don't think we can act like " the owners of the system are responsible for everything that happens within that system" if we expect to SOLVE the problems.

If you can tell me how criticizing the global system of white supemacy will directly effect the out of wedlock childbirth rate in our community, or the murder rate, or the drop out rate, or improve academic performance I will certainly direct my efforts there.

On the other hand, I have never seen anyone go from destructive behavior to constructive behavior without first being confronted about what they were doing wrong and held accountable for their behavior.


find a way to beat it. shine some light on the darkness. let's deconstruct the system of white supremacy. deprogram each other.

i notice that many of us cannot even bear to do that. we cannot even talk about the global system of white supremacy.
as soon as one of us points toward it, the masses get all kind of attitude toward that brother. not the system, the one who is pointing to the system.


coincidence?

The system of white supremacy is self-destructing, it will not exist on a world wide level within another 20 to 40 years. By mere birthrate along, the white race is loosing the war to non-whites. They are progressively loosing ground to muslims and non-whites. With the lose of majority status, they will also lose political power.

At the end of the day, when white supremacy is no more, we as a people must still change our behavior to change our condition. The absence of white supremacy, in and of itself does not stop our destructive behavior. We must stop our destructive ways or we will self-destruct at a faster rate than white supremacy.

Just a question I would like to put out...

Why it is this chronic tendancy for some to feel and think when we--part of a so called minority group--aren't a reflection of the norms associate with the majority group in this nation--then there's something wrong with us--either as indiiduals and/or as a people?

Instead, at lest to me:

The words exploitation and oppression come to mind...

Also some of us have a different analysis of the same issues and problems:

So it might aid your own efforts if you took the time etc. to weigh the pros and cons of ours as well...

FYI...

From an ally:

Not a 'critic'...

Lastly:

Good luck and best wishes via your efforts to help resolve the issues and problems which aill our people in 2009!

Take care...

Peace...

Good insights etc. via your again on point/on time comments etc.

But, this isn't the seventies, i. e., unless some folks life experience etc. force them to heed their own reality checks/wake up calls, they will never contrast what they choose to believe with what we already know and understand to be true...

Too many of today's younger (or not so younger) generations of our folk are a bad example of the same things some of everybody is being exposed to,
via self appointed know it alls turned TV and radio talk show hosts, etc. filling folks heads with a lot of trite stuff aka the latest 'do your own thing' b. s., as though--yet again--we should merely strive to save ourselves as individuals, etc., which was and what the black and colored "I too am American" takes were and are about, otherwise they dare to exibit a contrived notion of blissfull ignorance, rather than be candid and honest about new compromises they've decided to accept, as regards whatever some of our peoples exploiters and oppressors need and want us to be about, so they can remain on the top/us on the bottom, aka 'superior' vs 'inferior, ad naseum':

Instead the very idea of us being an African (descended) people nobody or few even bring up on anybody's message boards anymore!

Uh...

Homefolks?

We are an African people!

And...

Uh...

The Last (Black) Poets got it right, back when they fortold what our regressions and retreats would lead to!

So, shall we continue to be whitewashed colored folk and black folk, or a true reflection of our peoples legacy, etc., on this side of the oceans?

Also the world's people of color are impatiently awaiting our answer to that question as well....

FYI...

Take care....

Later...

Peace...



every word that you have written has been a critique of black people. that is all you have. you do nothing else here.
you must feel that black people have not had enough criticism and you will correct the problem by offering more.

while it is certainly a good thing to be on your best behaviour, in the history of this country black people who were well behaved did not get treated much better than anybody else. when the lynch mob arrived, they did not test for manners.

the issue in this country is racism and class warfare. those on wall street who brought this country to its knees were very well behaved CEOs.
they attended the finest schools. they had the best opportunity. why did they turn out to be robbers and rapists?
the moral equivalent of the street corner thug?

they were following the rules of the system of white supremacy. plunder.

the issue is the global system of white supremacy. that is what blacks have been taught to turn their eyes away from. taught not to challenge.

What was and is true as well:

One can just choose to react to the way things are...

One can also choose to actually do things in order change them...

At the height of the last freedom struggle, some of us were striving for the collective empowerment of our people...

Such is what I feel and think it will take to resolve our peoples present issues and problems...

I. e., if and when we apply the African principles associated with what was just a oh so 'correct' alternative to what the white christians etc. were and are into, mostly only during the overhyped holiday seasons, as in--do our our lives and or our dealings with each other, etc., on a daily basis, we'd be much better off!

At least that's my take on this particular subject thread etc.

FYI...

Take care...

Later...

Peace...

The absence of white supremacy, in and of itself does not stop our destructive behavior....

you believe that black people have a character defect. i do not.

black people had stable civilizations that lasted for a very long time prior to being contaminated by the devils.
this would argue against some intrinsic self destructiveness among black people to me.

we have only been "self destructive" since encountering white people. co incidence?

we will just agree to dis agree.

Very good question BlackEmpress...
First of all I would like to say this post has generated some interesting conversation.
Know back to the question. The answer too Blackempress question is. Yes we have been raising Blackmen who have not been able to properly identify and critically analyze our historical, political, economic, and psychological reality. And come up with and adequate plan to re-socialize ourselves.

This is not because we lack the moral character. Are because of single mothers raising our sons.
Again these are just symptoms of a much bigger problem.
Even when we had more two parent homes. Blackmen were not being raised appropiately.
Why do I say that.. Easy just look at the consequences that we faced.
To a good extent the symptoms that we are talking about today in the black family. Is just the continued legacy of our inability to confront the harsh reality of how the world operates in it's relationship to black people.

Yes.
We have chosen as a whole to completely ignore the cultural, economic, and political intentions of other people. In reference to what they want and need from us.
We have chosen to do this for the sake of maintaining social relationships with other groups under the banner of multi-cultralism and love for all people.

Choosing to accept the token friendship of groups without closely examinizing their cultural intentions has been one of our most tragic mistakes.
Ladies and gentleman what do you think our history is for?
Our ancestors did not survive so we could continue the same traditions that left them vunerable.
They survived for a good extent. So that we could have the history in front of us. And would not make the same mistakes that they made again.

The real problem with Blackmen is that we have not collectively decided want our own cultural, political, economic and psychological intentions in this world should be.
And to be honest with you. A large part of this has to do with the fact that alot of our people do not want to truly discuss this. Out of the fear that we will upset and therefore damage the social relationships we have with these other groups.

Blackmen are not becoming the type of men we need to have to solve our own problems. Because we have not developed the correct dialogue and curriculum that would begin to create the type of cultural and political experience that would begin to transform the minds of our people.
Our men must be made aware of the intentions that other men have for our people.
This is the only way we will effectively come up with solutions to truly solve our problems.
If we continue to choose to ignore this reality for the sake having social relationships with others.
We will continue to suffer from the ills we are speaking about today.


Know what do I mean be that.
If we do not correctly define the intentions of other men against us.
How will we be able to develop the correct intentions for our people to solve our own problems and protect our own interest.
Right know we have not realistically defined the intent of Whites, Arabs, Jews, and Asians in relationship to us on a global level. So in affect we cannot properly define our own intentions in this world.

Men must be trained within a cultural, political and social situation that motivates and conditions them to act and relate to one another in ways that not only advances the interest of the people. But secures the survival of that group.
These type of social interactions have been severely damaged within the our history. And have been replaced with a alien substitute. Which has been designed for the self interest of the aliens.
And example of this is the fact that we have alot of our people who actually feel quilty and racist and morally wrong when confronted with the idea of making a conscious choice to spend money in ways that would support and uplift black business.
They become physically and psychologically uncomfortable when they are confronted with this notion.
Why?
Because to a good extent they do not want to face the ideal that this would upset the aliens that are in their community. Who by the way have no issue with not spending one red cent in any black business.

you believe that black people have a character defect. i do not.

black people had stable civilizations that lasted for a very long time prior to being contaminated by the devils.
this would argue against some intrinsic self destructiveness among black people to me.

we have only been "self destructive" since encountering white people. co incidence?

we will just agree to dis agree.

I do not believe that Black people have a character defect.

I know many many Black people with exceptional character, therefore it is obvious to me that there is no character defect that effect Black people as a collective people. I am not sure why you would suggest that I believe such a thing.

Good character must be INSTILLED in a person. All people, regardless of race, are fully capable of poor character, especially in the absence of training and guidance from positive influences such as supportive parents.

I respect your willingness to agree to dissagree, but IMO, you are not dealing with my points in a straight forward manner. You are trying to fit my points into a pre-concieved box..i.e. "anyone who think individual Blacks can decide to do "right" or choose to live constructive lives MUST believe Blacks have a character defect". This is not my position. I have not stated this nor anything that would give you that impression, yet you have choosen to force fit my position into a box it does not fit.

I respect your defense of the Black image and reputation. I get that. The next step of this defense is offensive measures against destruction from both internal and external sources.

Would you agree that if the sole source of our problems is White supremacy, we are completely dependent upon total annihalation of white supremacy in order to stop our self destructive behavior? I think we are fully capable of stopping our self-destructive behavior even in the presence of white supremacy, if we confront it straight forward and honestly. This demonstrates strength, not a character defect.

The absence of white supremacy, in and of itself does not stop our destructive behavior....
Good character must be INSTILLED in a person. All people, regardless of race, are fully capable of poor character, especially in the absence of training and guidance from positive influences such as supportive parents
I do not believe that Black people have a character defect

now you contradict your own self. if black people must have good character put into them by outside forces, then they have a character defect.

you believe that black people, as a group, have a character defect. i do not.
as i said, black people had stable civilizations for many years before they met white people.
how could self destructive people do that? black people invented civilization. how could self destructive people do that?

if i come in contact with the flu virus i may catch the flu. if i catch the flu i have to make enough anti bodies to kill the flu virus or i will die.
this does not mean that i am self destructive. i am infected with a pathogen. the course of action is to kill that pathogen.
if i can kill the pathogen and develop resistance, my person will be just fine.

white people are a deadly virus. we need to get that virus out of our system and then we will be just fine.

now you contradict your own self. if black people must have good character put into them by outside forces, then they have a character defect.

I did not say anything about Christianity. Where did that come from???

I did not differentiate Black people as being in need of good character put into them, I said:

Good character must be INSTILLED in a person. All people, regardless of race, are fully capable of poor character, especially in the absence of training and guidance from positive influences such as supportive parents.

If you had said that I said "all people must have good character instilled in them by their parents" you would have made an accurate protrayal of my statement. Unfortunately, in this case, you have twisted my statement to make it fit into your preconcieved box that it does not fit into in its original form. What is your motive for doing this?????? I would truely appreciate it if you would address my statements as I make them, not how you recreate them. By changing and twisting a few words you have created a contradiction that does not exist in its original form.

If you consider the need for good character to be instilled in a person by their parents as a character defect (I don't), then you must read my statement to mean that the entire world has a character defect. That is like saying that the need to teach children to read and write is a learning dissability.

You would twist it like this:
"now you contradict your own self. if black people must have the ability to read and write put into them by outside forces, then they have a learning defect"

So please, for the sake of progress, stop opposing positions and ideologies that I didn't say or even believe.

i said black people do not have to have good character put in them by an outside force. black people do not have a character defect. white people do.

i said black people do not have to have good character put in them by an outside force. black people do not have a character defect. white people do.

Please define "Good Character".

Please compare "Good Character" as it applies to my previous definition of "right".

i said black people do not have to have good character put in them by an outside force. black people do not have a character defect. white people do.

James,

This would suggest that if you were the parent of a Black child and kept that child 100% isolated from White people, that child would NEVER have a tendency to act self-destructively. He would never want to take a short cut to earning a living. He would never father children then abandon the mother and that child. He would never use drugs that are destructive to his own body. And, you as the parent would NEVER have to teach him any of these values because to have to do so would indicate an outside force having to correct a character defect. Please tell me if I am understanding your position accurately. I want to be certain not to twist your statement into something that it is not.

The only "outside force" I have talked about is PARENTS or family.

Please compare "Good Character" as it applies to my previous definition of "right".
the same. positive behaviour.

James,

This would suggest that if you were the parent of a Black child and kept that child 100% isolated from White people, that child would NEVER have a tendency to act self-destructively. He would never want to take a short cut to earning a living. He would never father children then abandon the mother and that child. He would never use drugs that are destructive to his own body. And, you as the parent would NEVER have to teach him any of these values because to have to do so would indicate an outside force having to correct a character defect. Please tell me if I am understanding your position accurately. I want to be certain not to twist your statement into something that it is not.

The only "outside force" I have talked about is PARENTS or family.

i think fuller said that if you do not understand white supremacy, everything else that you see will confuse you.

i have said to you repeatedly that when black people were, in fact, isolated from white people we built great civilizations.
the clear indication is that black self destructive behaviour came along with our contact with white people.

the same. positive behaviour.



i think fuller said that if you do not understand white supremacy, everything else that you see will confuse you.

i have said to you repeatedly that when black people were, in fact, isolated from white people we built great civilizations.
the clear indication is that black self destructive behaviour came along with our contact with white people.

Building great civilizations does not indicate that everyone within that civilization was great. It does not indicate that greatness came naturally and without parents instilling greatness into their children. There are great empires TODAY that are built by Blacks. We have the potential to build many more.

It is difficult to hold a conversation with you because you side step questions rather than answer them directly. You provide canned answers to questions you create rather than relevent questions presented to you. "If you do not understand white supremacy, everything else will confuse you" doesn't answer any questions I have asked nor does it speak relevently to my position on anything. It is simply one of the canned responses you seem to throw out there sporadically.

There is nothing about having built great civilizations that would indicate that good character came automatically and without parental training/guidance. Therefore, having repeatedly told me that we had built great civilizations does nothing to substantiate your suggestion Black children do not need parents to instill good character into them if they were isolated from White people.

I would call America a great civilization, but it is certain that not all Americans had good chracter nor does it suggest that those who did posses good character had it naturally and with parental intervention.

I would call America a great civilization
and i would not. i would call khemet a great civilization.

my knowledge says that there is no original sin. you do not have to teach each one to be good. we are good.
you have to teach people to be bad. parents are important to guide and nurture children.
they do not have to force good character on black children. black children have good character.

white people are devils. we are gods. what we need to do is find the god within.

i said we should agree to dis agree because you are not really able to open your mind to african concepts.
i am not sidestepping any thing. you are not prepared to hear what i am saying.
it's nobodies fault.
it just is.

Building great civilizations does not indicate that everyone within that civilization was great. It does not indicate that greatness came naturally and without parents instilling greatness into their children. There are great empires TODAY that are built by Blacks. We have the potential to build many more.

It is difficult to hold a conversation with you because you side step questions rather than answer them directly. You provide canned answers to questions you create rather than relevent questions presented to you. "If you do not understand white supremacy, everything else will confuse you" doesn't answer any questions I have asked nor does it speak relevently to my position on anything. It is simply one of the canned responses you seem to throw out there sporadically.

There is nothing about having built great civilizations that would indicate that good character came automatically and without parental training/guidance. Therefore, having repeatedly told me that we had built great civilizations does nothing to substantiate your suggestion Black children do not need parents to instill good character into them if they were isolated from White people.

I would call America a great civilization, but it is certain that not all Americans had good chracter nor does it suggest that those who did posses good character had it naturally and with parental intervention.


Just cut your effort on the conversation! You are hitting a brick wall! I'm sure the man has led by example and taught his own biological sons and/or daughters his lessons and they are out there leading from the front of the fight against the global white supremacy movement!

Just cut your effort on the conversation! You are hitting a brick wall! I'm sure the man has led by example and taught his own biological sons and/or daughters his lessons and they are out there leading from the front of the fight against the global white supremacy movement!

Cut my effort?

Tell me Tribal House, what does the fight against involve? What specifically does one do to fight against global white supremacy movement?

If I tell my children that any destructive behavior they display can be contributed to global white supremacy am I fighting global white supremacy?

I await your answer.

Just cut your effort on the conversation! You are hitting a brick wall!

Sho nuff. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll296/snugasaglove/beating_a_dead_horseemoticon.gif


I'm sure the man has led by example and taught his own biological sons and/or daughters his lessons and they are out there leading from the front of the fight against the global white supremacy movement!

Sarcasm at its best. lol

and i would not. i would call khemet a great civilization.

my knowledge says that there is no original sin. you do not have to teach each one to be good. we are good.
you have to teach people to be bad. parents are important to guide and nurture children.
they do not have to force good character on black children. black children have good character.

white people are devils. we are gods. what we need to do is find the god within.

i said we should agree to dis agree because you are not really able to open your mind to african concepts.
i am not sidestepping any thing. you are not prepared to hear what i am saying.
it's nobodies fault.
it just is.

As Tribal House has recommended, I will "cut my effort". I do agree to disagree with you on this matter.

You have avoided answering direct questions which would test your theory (knowledge). You do not consider that sidestepping. I do. I tried to hear what you were saying, but you expect your claims to be accepted without answering direct questions. If your "knowledge" cannot withstand the scrutiny of direct relevant questions then no, I would not be prepared to "hear" what you are saying if "hearing" means blindly accepting what my personal life experiences and observations tell me otherwise.

Thank you for the exchange. We agree to disagree.

Peace, brother.

Cut my effort?

Tell me Tribal House, what does the fight against involve? What specifically does one do to fight against global white supremacy movement?

If I tell my children that any destructive behavior they display can be contributed to global white supremacy am I fighting global white supremacy?

I await your answer.

I said cut your effort because you effort to get answers to your questions are not happening. He couldn't even answer my questions. I even directly asked him what was his recommendation and what is the solution and what is he doing about things? Im not taking up his point on this global white supremacy issue. I would assume he wants us to organize into para-military factions and strike at the heart of the global white supremacy movement.

I personally am not going to tell my son and any future children that their display of destructive behavior is contributed to this conspiracy. I think its a cop out and give you the proverbial boogie man in the closet to blame for your own individual actions. I always tell my son now that when he sets foot outside that door his actions can either make me look good or make me look bad. My son had a incident on the bus where he is one of the smaller kids and as you can imagine the older kids pick on the smaller ones. One of the older kids that has been one of the worse ones was bothering my son and finally my son just punched the kid in the eye. Kid never bothered him after that. I'm not going to blame that bigger kid bothering my son on the global white supremacy. I will blame it on he was bigger and he felt a smaller kid was weaker and my son had enough and popped him one good time. If the brother who wants to blame it all on the global white supremacy want to pop the global white supremacy in the eye one good time teaching it a lesson, I'm sure he can go and sign up with Al Qaeda and/the taliban fight alongside them as well.

Sho nuff. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll296/snugasaglove/beating_a_dead_horseemoticon.gif




Sarcasm at its best. lol

If that was sarcasm, I missed it....and owe Tribal House an apology.

I said cut your effort because you effort to get answers to your questions are not happening. He couldn't even answer my questions. I even directly asked him what was his recommendation and what is the solution and what is he doing about things? Im not taking up his point on this global white supremacy issue. I would assume he wants us to organize into para-military factions and strike at the heart of the global white supremacy movement.

I personally am not going to tell my son and any future children that their display of destructive behavior is contributed to this conspiracy. I think its a cop out and give you the proverbial boogie man in the closet to blame for your own individual actions. I always tell my son now that when he sets foot outside that door his actions can either make me look good or make me look bad. My son had a incident on the bus where he is one of the smaller kids and as you can imagine the older kids pick on the smaller ones. One of the older kids that has been one of the worse ones was bothering my son and finally my son just punched the kid in the eye. Kid never bothered him after that. I'm not going to blame that bigger kid bothering my son on the global white supremacy. I will blame it on he was bigger and he felt a smaller kid was weaker and my son had enough and popped him one good time. If the brother who wants to blame it all on the global white supremacy want to pop the global white supremacy in the eye one good time teaching it a lesson, I'm sure he can go and sign up with Al Qaeda and/the taliban fight alongside them as well.


Please accept my apology. I took you wrong.

If that was sarcasm, I missed it....and owe Tribal House an apology.


:10500: That's how I took it.

If my perception was in error, I owe him an apology also.

If that was sarcasm, I missed it....and owe Tribal House an apology.


I was being very sarcastic as hell! Maybe his knowledge and his answers work in the North Philly ghetto but won't always translate in other parts of the country. I have no problem with accepting the diversity that our people have. Some of us accomplish great things with obstacles against us while others just wallow in self pity and their environment. There is no one size fits all answer that works. What works for one doesn't always work for the other. We should care about what goes in our community but unless you have access to vast amount of wealth you can't tackle great big jobs and have to start off small.

I want to apologize to the OP because this thread got so off topic that was presented and the discussion went away from what the OP intended. I would totally understand if Destee or the moderators made this area off-limits to us men because we took it over and turned it into a pissing contest and we were out of line.

as i said, when ever one of us points to the global system of white supremacy the others jump on him. not the system that is oppressing us all.
co incidence? no, that is brainwashing in operation. we have been taught to not look at or challenge the system of white supremacy.
you folk prove my point for me.

as i said, when ever one of us points to the global system of white supremacy the others jump on him. not the system that is oppressing us all.
co incidence? no, that is brainwashing in operation. we have been taught to not look at or challenge the system of white supremacy.
you folk prove my point for me.

On the contrary, your point has not been proven at all. In the real world, when proving a point, you have to make a case for that point and answer direct questions which challenge the validity of that point. Making an unsubstantiated claim does not PROVE your point.

The sad thing is that I sincerely wanted to understand your persective, but your perspective is so shallow it spits out canned, irrelevent answers to questions that has not been asked.

It is not an issue of you pointing at the "global system of white supremacy" and being jumped on, it is you pointing at a real problem and applying it beyond its reach. Then your canned responses start spewing all over the place. The global system of white supremacy cannot reach into my character, it cannot make me act destructively. If you father children then abandon them and their mother, then blame the global system of white supremacy, you are being dishonest with yourself, your children, and your community.

Good day.

brother james makes a valid point...and he's been saying it for years on this site....
case in point...
everything of this planet earth works in a cyclical fashion...
day/night...4 seasons...birth/death...etc.
when we were captured and forced into slavery it set a deadly chain of events in motion...
the black mans ability to take care and provide for his family was neutralized
the black mans sense of worth was neutralized as they were made to feel less than a man
the black mans spirituality was neutralized as they were forced to adopt christianity or die in most instances....
i could talk about the effects on the woman also but this thread is about the brothers....

these cycles have to run their course...
when u here someone say u have to break the cycle...in most cases it's easier said then done...right now im in a deadly battle with the cycle and trying to break some of the nasty behavior patterns that my family has set in motion...
this is not an easy thing to accomplish nor does anyone in mortal combat with the cycle need to hear mockery from those who may or may not understand their plight...

in conclusion we as a people will get there...just like many things in life...it's easy to break something but it proves more difficult to mend what was broken....and they had over 400 years to break us people....
we have to be kind to ourselves as we continue to take these baby steps against the constant wind of white supremacy....

one love
khasm

brother james makes a valid point...and he's been saying it for years on this site....
case in point...
everything of this planet earth works in a cyclical fashion...
day/night...4 seasons...birth/death...etc.
when we were captured and forced into slavery it set a deadly chain of events in motion...
the black mans ability to take care and provide for his family was neutralized
the black mans sense of worth was neutralized as they were made to feel less than a man
the black mans spirituality was neutralized as they were forced to adopt christianity or die in most instances....
i could talk about the effects on the woman also but this thread is about the brothers....

these cycles have to run their course...
when u here someone say u have to break the cycle...in most cases it's easier said then done...right now im in a deadly battle with the cycle and trying to break some of the nasty behavior patterns that my family has set in motion...
this is not an easy thing to accomplish nor does anyone in mortal combat with the cycle need to hear mockery from those who may or may not understand their plight...

in conclusion we as a people will get there...just like many things in life...it's easy to break something but it proves more difficult to mend what was broken....and they had over 400 years to break us people....
we have to be kind to ourselves as we continue to take these baby steps against the constant wind of white supremacy....

one love
khasm

i've tried to break the pattern of some of my family as well i know exactly what you mean.

statements like this is why i invited you to the evolution

we're closing in on 500 years enough of this second class "citizen" crap

the black mans spirituality was neutralized as they were forced to adopt christianity or die in most instances....

This is not going to to be a popular statement but....Single mothers raise weak men. Case closed.

I know women do their level best, but it cannot be done. I have witnessed this in so many occasions. The only way it works is if a male person like an uncle or a grandfather is a consistent close presence in the boy's life. It is unlikely that a step father can fill the void because "You are not my father" jumps out of a kid's mouth in a second. And then here comes the mother to the rescue. My own mother was a single parent and I am far more prepared for life than my older brother is. It's sad really.

Maybe the solution is we need to be more careful who and how we procreate and once the procreation is done, we need to hold all the key parties responsible. Not just for money but for time as well. Because this new generation of children, quite frankly, fightens me.


There's an expression which says "Mothers raise their daughters and love their sons."

Far too often, mothers, single and married, coddle and enable their sons in ways they do not do so with their daughters. This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility.

A family member of mine was dating a single mother with an 11 y/o son. (The boy's father is NOT much a part of his life.)
He saw the boy was very spoiled and disrespectful to his mother as well as quite able to manipulate his mother into giving him what he wanted. And when he mentioned this to her, she became defensive. But, all her excuses went out the window when he said to her, "Why would you raise your son to be the kind of man YOU wouldn't even want?!"

THAT got her attention!

They've been married for almost 4 years and the boy is a much better behaved teenager with responsibilities and consequences for his actions when boundaries are crossed, and he loves and respects his step-father.

So, yes, we have been raising weak Black men. However, it is a vicious cycle of the "blind cannot lead the blind." When black men are not being the fathers and role models their sons AND DAUGHTERS need, those children become men and women who don't know WHAT a real man is and their children, yet again, are the ones whose lives are negatively affected.

The global system of white supremacy cannot reach into my character, it cannot make me act destructively.
the most thoroughly brainwashed man in the room is the one saying that he has not and can not be brainwashed.

This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility
are you characterizing the current generation of black men?

There's an expression which says "Mothers raise their daughters and love their sons."

Far too often, mothers, single and married, coddle and enable their sons in ways they do not do so with their daughters. This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility.

A family member of mine was dating a single mother with an 11 y/o son. (The boy's father is NOT much a part of his life.)

He saw the boy was very spoiled and disrespectful to his mother as well as quite able to manipulate his mother into giving him what he wanted. And when he mentioned this to her, she became defensive. But, all her excuses went out the window when he said to her, "Why would you raise your son to be the kind of man YOU wouldn't even want?!"

THAT got her attention!

They've been married for almost 4 years and the boy is a much better behaved teenager with responsibilities and consequences for his actions when boundaries are crossed, and he loves and respects his step-father.

So, yes, we have been raising weak Black men. However, it is a vicious cycle of the "blind cannot lead the blind." When black men are not being the fathers and role models their sons AND DAUGHTERS need, those children become men and women who don't know WHAT a real man is and their children, yet again, are the ones whose lives are negatively affected.


Originally Posted by cherryblossom
This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility

are you characterizing the current generation of black men?

I am characterizing ANY "adult males" to whom this applies, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE GENERATIONS if the Black family unit continues to be un-unified.

I repeat, there is a marked difference between an "adult male" and a MAN.

This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility
I am characterizing ANY "adult males" to whom this applies, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE GENERATIONS if the Black family unit continues to be un-unified.
i can't help but notice that these remarks are exactly the same as white racists have used for years to describe black men.
now the words have been passed over to black people to beat down other black people.

co incidence?

Originally Posted by*cherryblossom*
This, in turn, produces, a generation of adult males who are lazy and have little to no sense of personal responsibility

Originally Posted by cherryblossom I am characterizing ANY "adult males" to whom this applies, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE GENERATIONS if the Black family unit continues to be un-unified.

i can't help but notice that these remarks are exactly the same as white racists have used for years to describe black men. now the words have been passed over to black people to beat down other black people.

co incidence?

Well, I'm not describing “BLACK MEN.”

I'm talking about “BLACK ADULT MALES.” Again, there is a marked difference between the two.

Your own account testifies to having no father-figure in your life and was reared by women. Admittedly, it took you some time to transcend between being a “Black Adult Male” to being a “MAN.”

However, I do wonder in what context you're applying the word "weak."


while it is better to have both parents around and many single mothers do struggle, it is also true that not all have a bad outcome.

i was abandoned by my mother who had mental problems and i was raised collectively by my grandmother and my aunts.

in my case, i was never weak but it did take me a long time to figure out how to be a man.

single mothers do the best that they can. if anyone is to be criticised it is the system that has promoted the situation in the black community.
the system that has torn our family structure apart. the system of white supremacy has been destroying black families since slavery.


The original post in this thread is "Have we been raising WEAK Black men?"

And MY answer to the question is YES.

The Black family unit is disproportionately divided. Most households are headed by single mothers and grandmothers; and where there does exist a TWO-parent household, sadly, many of them are producing "WEAK" adult males into society because they are being "friends" instead of parents.

Yes, single mothers do the best they can, but they can not teach a boy how to be a MAN. And if a boy's father does not, himself, know in order to show and tell his son, then that is a vicious cycle of dysfunction; but, yes, there are exceptions. There are many Black men who have been the men and fathers to their own wives and children that their fathers never were to them.

Now, I'm not gonna go round-n-round with you because we will NEVER agree on this issue. But, as has been suggested to you before, you really should stop taking another person's words out of context and applying what YOU want it to mean.

I'm not describing “BLACK MEN.” I'm talking about “BLACK ADULT MALES.” Again, there is a marked difference between the two.
that's funny, the po po do not seem to see the difference.......

brother james makes a valid point...and he's been saying it for years on this site....
case in point...
everything of this planet earth works in a cyclical fashion...
day/night...4 seasons...birth/death...etc.
when we were captured and forced into slavery it set a deadly chain of events in motion...

I gave brother James multiple opportunities to support his claims. What you said and what he has said are not the same. If you are of the opinion that brother James makes a valid point, I am open to listen to you MAKE the point that brother James presented in an unsubstantiated manner, therefore, not MAKING the point at all.

Are you of the opinion that black children do not need parents to teach them to do right? Do you believe that if black parents were to isolate black children from white people they would naturally and consistently demonstrate good character? Do you believe that if black boys were isolated from white people they would not create fatherless children or look for short cuts to earning a fast dollar?

Those were James' assertions.


the black mans ability to take care and provide for his family was neutralized
the black mans sense of worth was neutralized as they were made to feel less than a man
the black mans spirituality was neutralized as they were forced to adopt christianity or die in most instances....
i could talk about the effects on the woman also but this thread is about the brothers....
I fully acknowledge the phsycological effect slavery and oppression has had upon us.

My concern is that as conditions for our people improved, our social conditions and family structure grew worse. While black men experienced dibilitating oppression, they did not abandon their children prior to the advances made during the civil rights movement. They did not father multiple children with multiple women then leave them all. The strength and character that existed in the Black man during those days was abandoned, it is VERY RARE today.

Are you willing to explore these facts with me? Lets look at the black family then VS the black family now. Lets look at the track record during the last 40 years then compare it to the track record during the 40 years prior to that. During that previous 40 years, black men raised their children, provided for them as difficult as it was, and was directly involved in their day to day lives. James was not willing to answer any questions concerning this. Since you consider James points valid, I am interested in seeing if you would be willing to disect this topic on a journey for truth?



these cycles have to run their course...
when u here someone say u have to break the cycle...in most cases it's easier said then done...right now im in a deadly battle with the cycle and trying to break some of the nasty behavior patterns that my family has set in motion...
this is not an easy thing to accomplish nor does anyone in mortal combat with the cycle need to hear mockery from those who may or may not understand their plight...
Hopefully you don't consider my position as "mockery". I simply dissagree with James, I don't "mock" my own plight. I don't think this "global system of white supremacy" has as much of a grip on me as James seems to think it has on him. This is in no way about me claiming to have overcome white supremacy, but about what my Mother, grandparents, uncles, & aunts instilled in me that cannot be taken away by white supremacy. While James thinks parents are not needed to instill good character in black children, my life experiences loudly proclaim the exact opposite to be true.



in conclusion we as a people will get there...just like many things in life...it's easy to break something but it proves more difficult to mend what was broken....and they had over 400 years to break us people....
we have to be kind to ourselves as we continue to take these baby steps against the constant wind of white supremacy....

one love
khasm

I agree with you that we will get there, but It will be by demonstrating the strong character we once did in the past, not by focusing on THEM.

What happened after the civil rights movement that made white supremacy so much more destructive against us than before the civil rights movement?

While opposing white supremacy where it is proven to exist is needful, it is counter productive to focus our efforts on them rather than us. We control our actions, not them. We can choose to be destructive or constructive regardless of what they do. Black men of character can consistently make choices that are not harmful to themselves, their family, nor their community.

I gave brother James multiple opportunities to support his claims. What you said and what he has said are not the same. If you are of the opinion that brother James makes a valid point, I am open to listen to you MAKE the point that brother James presented in an unsubstantiated manner, therefore, not MAKING the point at all.

Are you of the opinion that black children do not need parents to teach them to do right? Do you believe that if black parents were to isolate black children from white people they would naturally and consistently demonstrate good character? Do you believe that if black boys were isolated from white people they would not create fatherless children or look for short cuts to earning a fast dollar?

Those were James' assertions.


I fully acknowledge the phsycological effect slavery and oppression has had upon us.

My concern is that as conditions for our people improved, our social conditions and family structure grew worse. While black men experienced dibilitating oppression, they did not abandon their children prior to the advances made during the civil rights movement. They did not father multiple children with multiple women then leave them all. The strength and character that existed in the Black man during those days was abandoned, it is VERY RARE today.

Are you willing to explore these facts with me? Lets look at the black family then VS the black family now. Lets look at the track record during the last 40 years then compare it to the track record during the 40 years prior to that. During that previous 40 years, black men raised their children, provided for them as difficult as it was, and was directly involved in their day to day lives. James was not willing to answer any questions concerning this. Since you consider James points valid, I am interested in seeing if you would be willing to disect this topic on a journey for truth?



Hopefully you don't consider my position as "mockery". I simply dissagree with James, I don't "mock" my own plight. I don't think this "global system of white supremacy" has as much of a grip on me as James seems to think it has on him. This is in no way about me claiming to have overcome white supremacy, but about what my Mother, grandparents, uncles, & aunts instilled in me that cannot be taken away by white supremacy. While James thinks parents are not needed to instill good character in black children, my life experiences loudly proclaim the exact opposite to be true.




I agree with you that we will get there, but It will be by demonstrating the strong character we once did in the past, not by focusing on THEM.

What happened after the civil rights movement that made white supremacy so much more destructive against us than before the civil rights movement?

While opposing white supremacy where it is proven to exist is needful, it is counter productive to focus our efforts on them rather than us. We control our actions, not them. We can choose to be destructive or constructive regardless of what they do. Black men of character can consistently make choices that are not harmful to themselves, their family, nor their community.

basically what i'm saying is that of course parents have to do their job and more specifically black men in this regard....BUT the destructive cycle that we are now contained in will not be broken until we break the chains of white supremacy...i could go deeper into why this is...but for now this statement is a starting point to my position on this matter...

earlier in this thread i choose to look at the micro view of this problem...as it related to me...but now as this thread had progressed it would probably be better to look at the macro view...

one love
khasm

basically what i'm saying is that of course parents have to do their job and more specifically black men in this regard....BUT the destructive cycle that we are now contained in will not be broken until we break the chains of white supremacy...i could go deeper into why this is...but for now this statement is a starting point to my position on this matter...

earlier in this thread i choose to look at the micro view of this problem...as it related to me...but now as this thread had progressed it would probably be better to look at the macro view...

one love
khasm

OK, so you don't agree with James' claims and his point is NOT valid.

Now, what exactly do you mean by "until we break the chains of white supremacy"? The reason I ask this is because it seems you are placing a barrier to our success that does not exist. Beyond the phsycological limitations that we place upon ourselves, white supremacy has VERY LITTLE to NO control over our choice to exercise good character.

By placing this pre-requisite upon our success that we have to break the chains of white supremacy, you are adding an almost insurmountable obstacle for us AND giving them power over us that they do not truely posess. The ONLY thing we need to do to stop the "destructive cycle" is to CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR. I realize this is much easier said than done, but that is the 100% FACT.

As with the example that I gave James:

Lets take the family, as an example. While it is true white supremacy has had a devastating effect on the black family, I truely don't think a grown black man can claim white supremacy as the reason he would father multiple children by multiple mothers then not be a man, step up to the plate and provide for those children materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

The only difference between those who are constructive and those who are destructive is the choices they make and the character they posess. The system of white supremacy remains a constant, but it has little to zero effect upon an individual with the CHARACTER to CHOOSE to live constructively, be a man, and rise to meet his responsibilities without applying a blanket excuse for his shortcomings.

The bottom line is, if a man purposes in his heart to live in a manner that is constructive for himself, his family, and his community there is absolutely nothing white supremacy can do about it. So, why would we give our power to do right by our people away? Why would we act as though they have anything to do with our breaking of destructive cycles. Unless we are prepared to utterly destroy them, we would be eternally doomed if we needed to wait until we have destroyed white supremacy before we could stop our self-destructive behavior.

OK, so you don't agree with James' claims and his point is NOT valid.

Now, what exactly do you mean by "until we break the chains of white supremacy"? The reason I ask this is because it seems you are placing a barrier to our success that does not exist. Beyond the phsycological limitations that we place upon ourselves, white supremacy has VERY LITTLE to NO control over our choice to exercise good character.

By placing this pre-requisite upon our success that we have to break the chains of white supremacy, you are adding an almost insurmountable obstacle for us AND giving them power over us that they do not truely posess. The ONLY thing we need to do to stop the "destructive cycle" is to CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR. I realize this is much easier said than done, but that is the 100% FACT.

As with the example that I gave James:

Lets take the family, as an example. While it is true white supremacy has had a devastating effect on the black family, I truely don't think a grown black man can claim white supremacy as the reason he would father multiple children by multiple mothers then not be a man, step up to the plate and provide for those children materially, emotionally, and spiritually.

Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

The only difference between those who are constructive and those who are destructive is the choices they make and the character they posess. The system of white supremacy remains a constant, but it has little to zero effect upon an individual with the CHARACTER to CHOOSE to live constructively, be a man, and rise to meet his responsibilities without applying a blanket excuse for his shortcomings.

The bottom line is, if a man purposes in his heart to live in a manner that is constructive for himself, his family, and his community there is absolutely nothing white supremacy can do about it. So, why would we give our power to do right by our people away? Why would we act as though they have anything to do with our breaking of destructive cycles. Unless we are prepared to utterly destroy them, we would be eternally doomed if we needed to wait until we have destroyed white supremacy before we could stop our self-destructive behavior.

i'm sleepy...been working on reports all day today....
i'm not placing a barrier....white america is....
until our intercity schools are as good as the rest....
until our pay is equal for the same jobs....
until the judicial system is just across the board....
until the police stop stereotyping the black youth...
our progress will be hampered....
notice how i said progress...because even if parents were doing their job now...this system would still be holding us back from being what we can be in this country...if u can't see that then i'm sorry...i've done all i can do

there will always be exceptions to the rule....but again i am looking at the macro view of this problem...

one love
khasm

i'm sleepy...been working on reports all day today....
i'm not placing a barrier....white america is....
until our intercity schools are as good as the rest....
until our pay is equal for the same jobs....
until the judicial system is just across the board....
until the police stop stereotyping the black youth...
our progress will be hampered....
notice how i said progress...because even if parents were doing their job now...this system would still be holding us back from being what we can be in this country...if u can't see that then i'm sorry...i've done all i can do

there will always be exceptions to the rule....but again i am looking at the macro view of this problem...

one love
khasm
The biggest progress we can make is to stop self-destructive behavior. For me, this starts with proper family structure. This is the natural structure of a child being raised by his or her natural biological parents in a stable home where these parents are committed to the child and to each other.

From this foundation, we can do anything.

The reality is we are in a cycle that white america is powerless to do anything about. What can white America do about inner city schools? I know of inner city school systems that are very well funded, have almost exclusively black administration and staff, yet is over run with drugs, gangs, and crime. The city administrators are black as well as much of the power structure as well. What can white america do to fix these schools???

I have researched this matter in detail. Pay rates can more closely connected to education level and academic performance than any other factor, to include race and gender. This is not to say that some disparity does not exist, but we are talking about constructive vs destructive living.

I realize the justice system is not just in all cases. But we are talking about doing right and exercising good character. Even in the most unjust of justice systems, the system itself does not prevent us from doing right by our people. It does not contribute to the destructive cycle you mentioned.

Police stereotyping black youth is a very bad thing, but once again, this does not contribute to the destructive cycle. Youth don't say "Hey, the police racially profiled me so I am going to go sell crack to my community". Racial profiling does not prevent black youth from doing right by our people or living constructive lives.

So, it is clear that you make valid points concerning valid issues that should be confronted and corrected where found. BUT, these problems DO NOT hinder us in ANY WAY from breaking destructive cycles. There can be no connection made between these very real problems you have mentioned and the behavior which is destructive to ones own person, his family, and his community.

until our intercity schools are as good as the rest....
one love
khasm

As questioned in my post above, what can Whites do to improve inner city schools?

I know of a few predominately black schools both private and public, as well as a black organization that produces academic excellence and well disciplined students. The Harlem Childrens Zone is one example of outstanding organizations that promote such things.

What you will find is that in every case of Black schools or organizations producing excellence, it is because Black administrators and parents are making DIFFERENT CHOICES, not because they defeated white supremacy or because white people did anything differently. These schools exist in the same system of white supremacy as the failing schools. So, why some fail while others thrive? One Black school I read about some time ago in Illinois consistently produces students that perform on par with some of the finest schools in America. White people did not do anything to make these schools better, it was black people. So again, It puzzles me as to why you think THEY have to do something different to solve OUR problems. It is US who will solve our problems or they will not be solved. Furthermore, we have ALL OF THE RESOURCES we need to solve them RIGHT NOW. We don't need to wait on anything or anyone, we just need to stop making excused and DO what has to be done to change our behavior, actions, character, and choices which will change our RESULTS.

If you can think of something that white people could do to turn around inner city schools more effectively than WE could, please let me know....my ears are wide open.

we will just agree to disagree...

let me give u one final analogy b4 i vacate this thread as i have no more to offer it....

in the race we call life...
if white people are running on level ground...
while blacks are running on a steady incline....
a superior black runner would be the equivalent of a poor to average white runner...

thank you and good day....


one love
khasm

there will always be exceptions to the rule....but again i am looking at the macro view of this problem...



take a good look around brother/sister....
all that jazz ur talking didn't help the blacks against hurricane katrina did it?
is it helping them now?

one love
khasm

the most thoroughly brainwashed man in the room is the one who denys that he is brainwashed.



the neo con philosophy was started during ronald reagan's term along with black capitalism.
i see these same tricks are still present today. neo cons attacking the character of black people under the guise of tough love.
neo cons giving the devil a free pass. neo cons waving the bible.

this cat has been complaining that i do not answer his specific question.
at the same time i have present a query that he has ignored. i will present it yet again.

black people built great civilizations prior to meeting the white man. clearly we did not have a character problem then. why do we have one now?
could it be white supremacy?

we will just agree to disagree...

let me give u one final analogy b4 i vacate this thread as i have no more to offer it....

in the race we call life...
if white people are running on level ground...
while blacks are running on a steady incline....
a superior black runner would be the equivalent of a poor to average white runner...

thank you and good day....


one love
khasm

You have completely missed my point and completely failed to make your own.

Just because the black runner is running on a steady incline, this fact does not make the black runner stop and shot himself in the foot.

I understand the difficulties faced by Black people. I have been Black all my life. But you claim that these difficulties make Black people behave self-destructively. I ask that if you believe this, answer my questions about why some Blacks obtain excellence while others fail to thrive? Like James, you have completely ignored those questions. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid to challenge your own ideologies. I have a lot of beliefs, but I am not afraid to challenge any of them. I will delve into any of my beliefs and am fully willing to abandon anything I believe if a convincing case is made to prove my beliefs to be false. But James and you simply ignore questions that if answered might dismantle your belief system. Come on brother, don't run from the thread nor the questions.

black people built great civilizations prior to meeting the white man. clearly we did not have a character problem then. why do we have one now?
could it be white supremacy?

I directly address this question previously, but I don't mind addressing it again. I will continue to answer it until you are satisfied that it has been dealt with. Will you do the same and answer my questions?

The truth is that the "Slave trade" was exactly that. A trade. In other words Blacks participated in it. Sure there were some slaves that were captured, but the truth is most were captured, traded, and sold by opposing Africans. Now, if a group of white people show up at your house and you sell them your children does this mean you had good character? Does this mean that the only reason you had a character problem is because the white people showed up? Is it because the white people who showed up considered themselves superior to you???

You brought this up so lets get down with it. Lets explore it for truth without the canned, pre-programmed responses. Do you acknowledge or deny that Blacks sold or traded their own race to Whites and/or Jewish Slave traders? If you deny it provide proof that demonstrates otherwise.

Please answer the questions directly and I will do you the same for you. This is not about being a "neo con", it is about what it is going to take to fix our problems.

You have completely missed my point and completely failed to make your own.

Just because the black runner is running on a steady incline, this fact does not make the black runner stop and shot himself in the foot.

I understand the difficulties faced by Black people. I have been Black all my life. But you claim that these difficulties make Black people behave self-destructively. I ask that if you believe this, answer my questions about why some Blacks obtain excellence while others fail to thrive? Like James, you have completely ignored those questions. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid to challenge your own ideologies. I have a lot of beliefs, but I am not afraid to challenge any of them. I will delve into any of my beliefs and am fully willing to abandon anything I believe if a convincing case is made to prove my beliefs to be false. But James and you simply ignore questions that if answered might dismantle your belief system. Come on brother, don't run from the thread nor the questions.

DUDE...do u actually hear urself talk? lol....
u sound like clarence thomas or something...
one of the major problems in the black community is lack of self respect and respect for other blacks....
we have uppity negroes that look down on the blacks from the other side of the tracks...
where did we learn this behavior from....

tell the Jena 6 or multitudes of discriminated on blacks that rhetoric...
i'd bet you would get laughed out of the country...

i am a successful black man with a degree in mathematics who had parents that were there for me when i needed them...due to a variety of reasons...not all of them the black mans fault but mostly are...a lot of black children cannot say this and have to work even that much harder than i had to work to get to this point in my life....

u used the analogy of the runner shooting themselves in the foot but totally discount the police shooting the runner...i tire of this conversation....reminds me of previous arguments i've had with black republicans while volunteering...

at the end of the day u have to do what works for u and if ur ideologies work for u then God bless...

one love
khasm

DUDE...do u actually hear urself talk? lol....
u sound like clarence thomas or something...
one of the major problems in the black community is lack of self respect and respect for other blacks....
we have uppity negroes that look down on the blacks from the other side of the tracks...
where did we learn this behavior from....

I am not concerned about who I sound like. I am simply speaking truth. I don't care if it sounds like Clarence Thomas or Clarence the Crackhead. Truth is truth.

How convienient, you "tire of this conversation". Funny how that works.


tell the Jena 6 or multitudes of discriminated on blacks that rhetoric...
i'd bet you would get laughed out of the country...


Did you not hear me? I told you I have been Black all my life. Do you think I have escaped discrimination????? Of course not. But that is EXACTLY my point. Having endured discrimination never made me act destructively against myself, my family, nor my community. You cannot make the connection between enduring discrimination and shooting yourself in the foot. Or between being shot in the foot by the enemy then shooting yourself in the other foot.


i am a successful black man with a degree in mathematics who had parents that were there for me when i needed them...due to a variety of reasons...not all of them the black mans fault but mostly are...a lot of black children cannot say this and have to work even that much harder than i had to work to get to this point in my life....

Congratulations brother. I sincerely mean that. I don't have a degree, so certainly I respect other brothers and sisters who do obtain degrees. (Especially in disciplines such as math and science) While I don't have a degree, I have earned over 100K per year during the last three years. As I mentioned previously, earning potential can be more closely related to education level and academic performance than race. I am an exception to the rule. I work with several whites who have higher education levels than myself but I negotiated a better salary.

Now, lets look at your claim here. You are a successful Black man because you had parents that supported you and you made some correct choices that lead to your success. I submit that we as a people are shooting ourselves in the foot by having a very high percentage of our children out of wedlock where they do not enjoy the benefit of supportive parents who are there when our children need them. TELL ME DIRECTLY, WHAT IS CAUSING US TO HAVE SO MANY CHILDREN OUT OF WEDLOCK???? Please don't say white supremacy....I will ask you to connect the dots and prove it....I will ask you why we were not having even a fraction as many out of wedlock children from 1865 to 1965 when oppression was at its absolute worse. So, tell me, is it discrimination or white supremacy that is making black men make children then abandon them???



u used the analogy of the runner shooting themselves in the foot but totally discount the police shooting the runner...i tire of this conversation....reminds me of previous arguments i've had with black republicans while volunteering...

at the end of the day u have to do what works for u and if ur ideologies work for u then God bless...

one love
khasm

No, I did not discount the police shooting the runner in the foot. Now, what you have said is that many Black children did not have it as well as you did (having supportive parents who were there for you). Make the connection for me. How is it the white mans fault that black children do not have supportive parents? Your parents are proof that black parents who have endured racism are fully capable of being supportive parents. What does your parents have that blacks who abandon their children don't have??? CHARACTER.

Tell me, how did your parents manage to withstand the opression, discrimination, and white supremacism and manage to be there for you? Did they get a pass? Of course not, they live in the same world I do, yet made choices that are available to ANY OF US TO MAKE. Your success is based on choices that are available to ANY OF US TO MAKE. Sure it will be harder for some and easier for others, but the fact is the choice is there to be made. There is no policeman standing at the entrance of universities shooting students in the foot who attempt to enter. There is no success in this country that is not available to any Black man who chooses to pursue it.

I directly address this question previously, but I don't mind addressing it again. I will continue to answer it until you are satisfied that it has been dealt with. Will you do the same and answer my questions?

The truth is that the "Slave trade" was exactly that. A trade. In other words Blacks participated in it. Sure there were some slaves that were captured, but the truth is most were captured, traded, and sold by opposing Africans. Now, if a group of white people show up at your house and you sell them your children does this mean you had good character? Does this mean that the only reason you had a character problem is because the white people showed up? Is it because the white people who showed up considered themselves superior to you???

You brought this up so lets get down with it. Lets explore it for truth without the canned, pre-programmed responses. Do you acknowledge or deny that Blacks sold or traded their own race to Whites and/or Jewish Slave traders? If you deny it provide proof that demonstrates otherwise.

Please answer the questions directly and I will do you the same for you. This is not about being a "neo con", it is about what it is going to take to fix our problems.

i do not believe that black people were the impetus of the slave trade. i have no proof one way or the other. do you?
show me proof that blacks mainly sold blacks that was not written by a white man.

we were not having even a fraction as many out of wedlock children from 1865 to 1965
do you have any objective proof of this? do you have any comparison of the rate off OOW births of blacks vrs society as a whole?

why two people from the same background have different outcomes. i don't know why.
first no two people have the same background unless they are identical twins.
second no two people have the same character.
thirdly, i do not see what this has to do with anything which is why i did not address it.

i did not have a set of parents. i was raised by my grandmother and my aunts. i hit the streets. i did not get a formal education at all.
i married my first love and provided a stable home for our child. his mother stayed home and taught him. he was put through private school and yale.
now he works in silicon valley. lives in oakland.

the last year that i worked i made 85k. that was a few years back before i retired.

so what?

i can't put my finger on it blueprint but u definitely sound EXACTLY like a previous member i've had conversations with on this site...give me a second i will figure it out....

one love
khasm

i can't put my finger on it blueprint but u definitely sound EXACTLY like a previous member i've had conversations with on this site...
give me a second i will figure it out....

one love
khasm

the more he talks the closer it gets. they be clones?

Congratulations brother. I sincerely mean that. I don't have a degree, so certainly I respect other brothers and sisters who do obtain degrees. (Especially in disciplines such as math and science) While I don't have a degree, I have earned over 100K per year during the last three years. As I mentioned previously, earning potential can be more closely related to education level and academic performance than race. I am an exception to the rule. I work with several whites who have higher education levels than myself but I negotiated a better salary.



this is EXCEL isn't it....lol
u can't fool me brother...my middle name is kojack

one love
khasm

this is EXCEL isn't it....lol
u can't fool me brother...my middle name is kojack

one love
khasm


hahahaha....i knew it.....

one love
khasm

Originally Posted by Blue Print
... I have earned over 100K per year during the last three years. As I mentioned previously, earning potential can be more closely related to education level and academic performance than race. I am an exception to the rule. I work with several whites who have higher education levels than myself but I negotiated a better salary.


LOL! Well, if you're not Excel10K, you're a dead-ringer for him! rofl

i do not believe that black people were the impetus of the slave trade. i have no proof one way or the other. do you?
show me proof that blacks mainly sold blacks that was not written by a white man.

I said:
"In other words Blacks participated in it."

"Impetus" is far stronger than I suggested.

Since slavery is ongoing to this very day in Africa, It is obvious that blacks participated in slavery, they still are.

Is this not true? Do you deny that slavery of blacks by blacks in Africa is still ongoing?

This, however, really irrelevent to my main point and the question presented in this thread "Have we been raising weak Black men?"

From a "solutions" perspective, you offer no realistic or practical path to collective success. White people are here to stay. We cannot destroy all of them. Therefore, if collective success is to be gained, we must obtain it in and among them. Therefore, we must be strong Black men.

If we continue to live in the United States, we have no choice but to succeed in and among white people or accept an existence below our potential. Do you see any other alternative to this? If you see an alternative, is there any active movement or path toward that alternative ongoing?

As I look around, I see plenty of evidence that we have everything we need to obtain individual success as well as collective success. There are pictures of collective success all around us such as the Black school I mentioned in Illinois and the Harlem Childrens Zone run by Geoffery Canada, an OUTSTANDING brother, all demonstrate that we can do anything, be anything.

Will this help us escape racial profiling, stereotypes, or discrimination? Probably not. Will it help us avoid destructive lifestyles,allow us to reach our collective potential, build strong families, build strong community supported businesses, allow our students to perform so competitively that they are sought after by the Black businesses that WE build as well as the few white businesses who simply want THE BEST candidate for a competitive business environment? Yes, it can.

Those young Black brothers and sisters who are products of those schools and programs run by STRONG black men and women such as Geoffery Canada are living constructive lives and have proven capable of greatness. We simply need more of the same. White supremacy does not, nor cannot stand in the way of this progress. My point is that with strong Black men and women, we can avoid destructive lives and collectively do significantly better than we are right now.

do you have any objective proof of this? do you have any comparison of the rate off OOW births of blacks vrs society as a whole?

Absolutely, there is tons of objective proof.
http://www.blackpast.org/?q=primary/moynihan-report-1965
The Moynihan Report from the department of Labor in 1965 provided a very comprehensive description of this. At that time, the OOW birth rate was no where near as bad as it is now. But even then, with the rate at about 25% attempts were made to warn us of the problem. Black leaders at that time did not dispute the numbers, but they did dispute the cause. (Understandable) Although the cause was in dispute, the problem needed a solution. Well, because no solution was implemented we have gone from 25% to 70%. In 1965 the OOW birth rate for white folks was around 3%, today it is around 30%.

Casual observation would support this claim, but there is plenty of objective data that substantiates it as well. My numbers may be off by a percentage point or two because it has been nearly a year since I have researched this.

The cause is still not settled, but my question is: Do we agree that OOW is a problem? Do we agree that unless something is done, the rate will continue to increase as it has since the Moynihan report warned us it would? Do we agree that White people cannot OR will not (even if they could) do anything about it? Do we agree that solving this problem is up to us?

I think rebuilding our families is one of the keys to rebuilding our communities and reaching our potential as a people. From this solid foundation, we can rise up from any condition to realize individual and collective success.

The Moynihan Report.........
moynihan was a racist and classist cracker. i do not hear anything with his name attached to it.

like i said, we just agree to dis agree. you are way too far out there for me to comprehend.

why two people from the same background have different outcomes. i don't know why.
first no two people have the same background unless they are identical twins.
second no two people have the same character.
thirdly, i do not see what this has to do with anything which is why i did not address it.

The difference in outcomes is based on the different choices an individual makes. So if some can be successful based on their choices, then success is available to most, if not all within that same system.

The message to our people, therefore, should be that we have to make constructive and positive choices. Positve results are available to those who make positive choices.

This has a LOT to do with everything. Unless we have plans to bust out of this system, we have to sink or swim in this one. Even if we do bust out of this system, we have to sink or swim in the new one. So, we have to be prepared to make positive and constructive choices. Why wait until we bust out of this system (which may or may not ever happen) to start telling our young people they are responsible for making positive choices regardless of the condition they find themselves?

moynihan was a racist and classist cracker. i do not hear anything with his name attached to it.

like i said, we just agree to dis agree. you are way too far out there for me to comprehend.

Yeah, if you choose to deny facts that even a casual observation supports simply because the wrong persons name is on it, you are too far out for me also.

I just think it is important that we confront and resolve this issue. I see our families as keys to a lot of things concerning our collective success despite the obstacles we face.

Once again I do agree to disagree.

Positive results are available to those who make positive choices.
that has not been my experience on the planet.

that has not been my experience on the planet.

Hey, we agreed to disagree. That has been my experience on this planet. Perhaps that is why we cannot agree. I am ok with that. My life experience has been that I have always been my own worse enemy. When I have make positive choices, I have always been rewarded with positive results. There has never been an entity outside of myself that have kept me from obtaining what ever I have chosen to seek.

Make no mistake about it, I have seen and experienced racism, but I have sought big goals in my life and have obtain those goals that where within my personal ability and discipline.

So, considering my personal experience as compared to your personal experience, we really must agree to disagree. If I could look back at my life and say "You know, I could have been this or could have done that if it were not for the oppression I have faced or the white supremacist system I have lived in", perhaps I could relate to your perspective. But, in all honesty, I cannot. Sure, racism is an ever present and ongoing challenge/problem, but I don't think we can do anything to remove the existance of it. But, I do know we can thrive, both individually and collectively, in its presence. It is counter-productive to allow our children to be disabled or disenchanted by a problem we have no control over and which will probably be around forever. This does not suggest that we should ignore racism or attack it where we can.

Again, I agree to disagree. I don't want to debate for the sake of debate. Our different life experiences have left us with different ideas. From my persective, you are still my brother. I ain't mad atcha.

you've stated these exact arguments (exact) b4 brother excel10k....what is ur purpose in stating them again...we all know where u stand...do u have anything else to contribute that does not go against the grain?....the reason i ask is that u will probably get banned again on this current path u r skipping along on....
and don't think that i don't know u were someone else b4 that...i just can't remember the name u used that time....

one love
khasm

you've stated these exact arguments (exact) b4 brother excel10k....what is ur purpose in stating them again...we all know where u stand...do u have anything else to contribute that does not go against the grain?....the reason i ask is that u will probably get banned again on this current path u r skipping along on....
and don't think that i don't know u were someone else b4 that...i just can't remember the name u used that time....

one love
khasm

Tell me Khasm, can you not visualize a better day for our people? I hope that you can. In your vision of that better day, how do we get there? Are we on the path at this point to get there? Are you doing what you believe is needful to get us to that better day? Fifty years from now, do you think we will still be living among White people? Do you think they will have changed in any way beneficial to us? If things continue on the path we are now, describe what you think our economic conditions will be, our family structures will be, our academic conditions will be, etc. over the next fifty years. Are you satisfied with the conditions today? Are you satisfied with what you think will be in fifty years if we continue on the path we are on now?

We should be on the same team. I assume you want a better day for our people. If you don't agree with what I present as ideas to improve conditions at least respect that I am focused on presenting ideas that I believe will gain desireable results. Furthermore, anyone can criticize the ideas of others, but can you present ideas of your own? If you do not agree with my ideas, present alternative ideas that you believe will allow us to acheive desirable results...that better day I am speaking of.

If you do not agree with my ideas, present alternative ideas that you believe will allow us to acheive desirable results...that better day I am speaking of.

if i wake up tomorrow with a plan to save the world you will not be on my sort list......

if i wake up tomorrow with a plan to save the world you will not be on my sort list......

It is this lack of unity that significantly contributes to slow recovery from the effects racism and oppression.

We should be able to agree to disagree yet still come together for solutions.

Don't be a hater.

b4 i answer ur question let me say that it takes a fool to expect a different outcome from taking a path that has lead to disaster previously....

all one can do is try to make a difference individually...where is the difference that u have made to help the black community?

me myself...i work for a non-profit organization that helps teenage underprivileged mothers with getting prenatal care and early childhood education...we also conduct screenings for mothers that are depressed so that we can help them get the help they need...for them and most importantly the child...

if i remember correctly you are married to a white woman...so again i ask what have you done brother...

one love
khasm

b4 i answer ur question let me say that it takes a fool to expect a different outcome from taking a path that has lead to disaster previously....
one love
khasm

OK, I am waiting for the answers to the questions. You told me what you do for a living. What is the answer to the rest of those questions?


Nothing I have done has lead to a disaster. Perhaps your idea of a disaster is different than mine. It would be a disaster if we, as a collective community, do not come together to improve our condition. I await your answers to the questions I posed.

dude u are so pompous that i cannot in all good conscious give u anymore of my time...no one knows what the future holds and like i said...all one can do is try to make a difference individually....

u have been banned 2-4 times already...that is pretty disastrous in my opinion....

if u are not part of the solution then u are part of the problem...but u r not part of my problem anymore...u are officially nominated to be on my ignore list so i don't have to read ur whitewashed rhetoric again until ur next incarnation....

one love
khasm

dude u are so pompous that i cannot in all good conscious give u anymore of my time...no one knows what the future holds and like i said...all one can do is try to make a difference individually....

u have been banned 2-4 times already...that is pretty disastrous in my opinion....

if u are not part of the solution then u are part of the problem...but u r not part of my problem anymore...u are officially nominated to be on my ignore list so i don't have to read ur whitewashed rhetoric again until ur next incarnation....

one love
khasm

What SOLUTION am I not a part of????????? You have NO SOLUTIONS to be a part of. I have asked you to present your ideas for a solution rather than just criticize mine. You haven't even hinted a solution or pointed to anyone that has a solution. In fact, you have run from the offer to present one. You have no vision.

I have not been banned 2-4 times already. That is simply an untrue statement. Even if it were true I would not consider it disastrous if it were simply for presenting what I believe to be truth. Again, we have different ideas of what disasterous is. Disasterous is a people without a vison and clear objectives.

smh...its a shame that u can't even read brother...read my last 2 posts and maybe u will find my solution...im out

one love
khasm

.... Briefly, i do believe that far too many Black men have been raised without a Father and are in fact missing some major foundational support on which to build their lives.

Unfortunately, it's not just Black men, but Black women too, that suffer from this. While there are many things that impact a life, missing this foundational support can only weaken the child, in spite of how unaffected they may appear.




Every child, male and female, in some way, is adversely affected when there is not a mother and a father in the home.

why don't the neo cons have their own site to go to?
someplace where they can get together and complain about black people.

Every child, male and female, in some way, is adversely affected when there is not a mother and a father in the home.

i grew up without a mother and father in the house.

after i realized what my mother was like i am grateful that she did not have charge of me as a child.

i grew up without a mother and father in the house.

after i realized what my mother was like i am grateful that she did not have charge of me as a child.

James, no disrespect meant but you did say that your mother was a mentally unstable woman. So, she was not capable to provide for you in a stable home even w/o a father there. Then, you were reared by a grandmother and aunts. So, your formative years were spent with women in your home environment and you had no immediate exposure to male mentorship.


So, it is my stance that you and any other child, male and female, who does not have a mother and father in the home is, in some way, adversely affected, no matter what they acquired/learned/gleaned/experienced for themselves as they matured into adulthood.

myself included.

smh...its a shame that u can't even read brother...read my last 2 posts and maybe u will find my solution...im out

one love
khasm

Brother,

It is not about me being unable to read, it is about my expectations of you. I expected you to have a better understanding of the word SOLUTION. At the end of a solution, it requires that a problem was solved. According to you, the only option available to us is "all one can do is try to make a difference individually".

Why don't you stop running, stop using insults as a defense to your lack of answers and try to understand the fact that you have no solution AT ALL.

Hear what I am saying here, it is important and indisputable fact:

Your "SOLUTION" is "all one can do is try to make a difference individually".

That is like saying the gains made during the civil rights movement could have been obtained by individuals working independently of one another. If you truely understood the magnatude of our condition, you would know that without a colaborative, unified effort from a very large percentage of our people there will be no SOLUTION.

Imagine where we would be now without the colaborative, unified effort of the progenitors of the Civil Rights Movement. Imagine where we would be if they said "all one can do is try to make a difference individually". Imagine where we would be if there was never a mass movement of our people unified towards a definative set of objectives and a clear way of measuring the success of their efforts. Imagine where we would be if nobody had a vision for where we could be as a people. Imagine where we would be if nobody was willing to stand the heat of being criticized for trying to advocate unity and stategic peaceful tactics.

James, no disrespect meant but you did say that your mother was a mentally unstable woman. So, she was not capable to provide for you in a stable home even w/o a father there. Then, you were reared by a grandmother and aunts. So, your formative years were spent with women in your home environment and you had no immediate exposure to male mentorship.


So, it is my stance that you and any other child, male and female, who does not have a mother and father in the home is, in some way, adversely affected, no matter what they acquired/learned/gleaned/experienced for themselves as they matured into adulthood.

myself included.

i know what you are saying. i beg to differ. there are a bunch of kids out there with out the traditional home situation.
i am not willing to condemn them to a bad life experience.

while i was raised around woman, i do not think i am a bad man.

Brother,

It is not about me being unable to read, it is about my expectations of you. I expected you to have a better understanding of the word SOLUTION. At the end of a solution, it requires that a problem was solved. According to you, the only option available to us is "all one can do is try to make a difference individually".

Why don't you stop running, stop using insults as a defense to your lack of answers and try to understand the fact that you have no solution AT ALL.

Hear what I am saying here, it is important and indisputable fact:

Your "SOLUTION" is "all one can do is try to make a difference individually".

That is like saying the gains made during the civil rights movement could have been obtained by individuals working independently of one another. If you truely understood the magnatude of our condition, you would know that without a colaborative, unified effort from a very large percentage of our people there will be no SOLUTION.

Imagine where we would be now without the colaborative, unified effort of the progenitors of the Civil Rights Movement. Imagine where we would be if they said "all one can do is try to make a difference individually". Imagine where we would be if there was never a mass movement of our people unified towards a definative set of objectives and a clear way of measuring the success of their efforts. Imagine where we would be if nobody had a vision for where we could be as a people. Imagine where we would be if nobody was willing to stand the heat of being criticized for trying to advocate unity and stategic peaceful tactics.

why don't you go to a site where there are compatible posters?
in all your words you have not converted one person. we do not share your views.

i look upon you as some one who hates on black people. you even hate on the ancestor africans.
periodically you come around and pound the mess out of us here. why?
i am never going to hate on black people. why don't you go hang out with others like yourself.

James, no disrespect meant but you did say that your mother was a mentally unstable woman. So, she was not capable to provide for you in a stable home even w/o a father there. Then, you were reared by a grandmother and aunts. So, your formative years were spent with women in your home environment and you had no immediate exposure to male mentorship.

So, it is my stance that you and any other child, male and female, who does not have a mother and father in the home is, in some way, adversely affected, no matter what they acquired/learned/gleaned/experienced for themselves as they matured into adulthood.

myself included.let's be more positive

i know what you are saying. i beg to differ. there are a bunch of kids out there with out the traditional home situation.
i am not willing to condemn them to a bad life experience.

while i was raised around woman, i do not think i am a bad man.

No negativity intended. I'm not saying that you or any other person from a single-parent home is "bad" and I'm not 'condemning' anyone to a "bad life experience." (myself included)

I'm just saying that w/o the presence of two parents, ANY child's development is adversely affected, in some kind of way; and he or she has to, in a sense, play "catch-up" because of that void in their formative years.

Yes, single mothers do the "best they can" with what resources and skills available to them; but the bottom line is that children need a mother and a father.

No, there is no guarantee for children with both parents in the home, but the odds are greater for a more stable groundwork than with two instead of one.

why don't you go to a site where there are compatible posters?
in all your words you have not converted one person. we do not share your views.

i look upon you as some one who hates on black people. you even hate on the ancestor africans.
periodically you come around and pound the mess out of us here. why?
i am never going to hate on black people. why don't you go hang out with others like yourself.

James,

Why do you waste your time telling me where to go? Reading my post is 100% optional/voluntary.

My words are truthful. If someone, anyone, offered a "View" that offered real hope of a "SOLUTION" to our tangible condition/problems, I would shut up and listen to that person.

Those people who you claim I have not "converted" offer zero hope of a solution. They are not satisfied with were we are as a collective people, but they refuse to acknowledge that we have a problem because that would be "hating on Black people". If they do acknowledge the problem, they are fixated on/ distracted by White people. They lack the vision to see that this fixation/distraction is not a solution in itself. Therefore they have no solution and things will continue as they have. You cannot dispute this FACT.

If you consider what I am saying as "pounding the mess out of Black people", I am sincerely sorry. It does sadden me that my motives are so mistaken. With this information, I can only attempt to modify my delivery. I am willing to do that to improve effectiveness, BUT the CORE MESSAGE and VISION cannot and will not change.

I do not hate Black people at all. I am surrounded by MANY strong, positive, accomplished Black men and women. Most of my relatives are positive and accomplished Black men and women. Therefore, I have first hand knowledge of the potential of Black people when they live life without excuses and distractions.

The difference between you and I are that you do not understand what does and what does not constitute a SOLUTION. If you get to hate white people and blame all of your problems on them, you are perfectly willing to remain in the condition we are in if getting out of the condition requires you/us to change anything about our behavior/actions.

I am focused on the vision of getting out of our condition and on to our collective potential. I clearly understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to obtain this goal of changing our condition without changing our actions. If we continue doing what we have been doing, we will continue getting what we have been getting.

What I am speaking is factual and needful. If you disagree you can present alternative solutions, which you have admitted to not having a clue about. Since it is obvious that no solutions are forthcoming from you, It is clear that we are stuck in this rut if we don't do something. I will not shut up about this. If you don't want to hear it, don't read my post.

Simple.

let's be more positive



No negativity intended. I'm not saying that you or any other person from a single-parent home is "bad" and I'm not 'condemning' anyone to a "bad life experience." (myself included)

I'm just saying that w/o the presence of two parents, ANY child's development is adversely affected, in some kind of way; and he or she has to, in a sense, play "catch-up" because of that void in their formative years.

Yes, single mothers do the "best they can" with what resources and skills available to them; but the bottom line is that children need a mother and a father.

No, there is no guarantee for children with both parents in the home, but the odds are greater for a more stable groundwork than with two instead of one.

This is the absolute truth.

James,

Why do you waste your time telling me where to go? Reading my post is 100% optional/voluntary.

My words are truthful. If someone, anyone, offered a "View" that offered real hope of a "SOLUTION" to our tangible condition/problems, I would shut up and listen to that person.

Those people who you claim I have not "converted" offer zero hope of a solution. They are not satisfied with were we are as a collective people, but they refuse to acknowledge that we have a problem because that would be "hating on Black people". If they do acknowledge the problem, they are fixated on/ distracted by White people. They lack the vision to see that this fixation/distraction is not a solution in itself. Therefore they have no solution and things will continue as they have. You cannot dispute this FACT.

If you consider what I am saying as "pounding the mess out of Black people", I am sincerely sorry. It does sadden me that my motives are so mistaken. With this information, I can only attempt to modify my delivery. I am willing to do that to improve effectiveness, BUT the CORE MESSAGE and VISION cannot and will not change.

I do not hate Black people at all. I am surrounded by MANY strong, positive, accomplished Black men and women. Most of my relatives are positive and accomplished Black men and women. Therefore, I have first hand knowledge of the potential of Black people when they live life without excuses and distractions.

The difference between you and I are that you do not understand what does and what does not constitute a SOLUTION. If you get to hate white people and blame all of your problems on them, you are perfectly willing to remain in the condition we are in if getting out of the condition requires you/us to change anything about our behavior/actions.

I am focused on the vision of getting out of our condition and on to our collective potential. I clearly understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to obtain this goal of changing our condition without changing our actions. If we continue doing what we have been doing, we will continue getting what we have been getting.

What I am speaking is factual and needful. If you disagree you can present alternative solutions, which you have admitted to not having a clue about. Since it is obvious that no solutions are forthcoming from you, It is clear that we are stuck in this rut if we don't do something. I will not shut up about this. If you don't want to hear it, don't read my post.

Simple.
you have already figured out the solution and implemented it.
if you have a solution and no one of us does, why are you here?
what do you need us for?

you have already figured out the solution and implemented it.
if you have a solution and no one of us does, why are you here?
what do you need us for?

Why are you consumed with my presence? It will cost you nothing to ignore me.

Why are you consumed with my presence? It will cost you nothing to ignore me.

i ignore those who i chose to ignore.

now, i asked you a simple question.

you have already figured out the solution and implemented it.
if you have a solution and no one of us does, why are you here?
what do you need us for?

i ignore those who i chose to ignore.

now, i asked you a simple question.

you have already figured out the solution and implemented it.
if you have a solution and no one of us does, why are you here?
what do you need us for?

Likewise, I answer those whom I chose to answer. It is unproductive to answer you at this point. If I thought for a moment that you would be willing to have a civil discussion where we mutually addressed one anothers questions I would be elated to answer your questions. You have proven repeatedly that you have no interest in answering my SIMPLE QUESTIONS, therefore it is pointless to answer yours.

If you change your mind and answer my SIMPLE QUESTIONS, I will certainly answer yours.

Likewise, I answer those whom I chose to answer. It is unproductive to answer you at this point. If I thought for a moment that you would be willing to have a civil discussion where we mutually addressed one anothers questions I would be elated to answer your questions. You have proven repeatedly that you have no interest in answering my SIMPLE QUESTIONS, therefore it is pointless to answer yours.

If you change your mind and answer my SIMPLE QUESTIONS, I will certainly answer yours.

to my knowledge i have answered those questions that you have addressed to me.
i see here that you will not answer a simple one that i have directed to you.
oh well.

to my knowledge i have answered those questions that you have addressed to me.
i see here that you will not answer a simple one that i have directed to you.
oh well.

Standby, I will give you an opportunity to see several of the questions I have asked that remain unanswered. At that time (shortly) if you choose to answer those unanswered questions, I will promptly answer yours. Now, we will see whose evasion speaks volumes.

moynihan was a racist and classist cracker. i do not hear anything with his name attached to it.

like i said, we just agree to dis agree. you are way too far out there for me to comprehend.

Yeah, when presumed and assumed white liberal/reformists started being treated like they were the 'experts' on our peoples problems, and one of them wound up going turncoat in a particular white reactionary president's camp, some of our alleged or real black intellectuals at the time sure weren't watching our or their backs...

Flashfoward and yet another reason I'm glad to find out some folks these days are!

I. e., the BLACK COMMENTATOR'S contributors are case studies of it,
elder bruh...

So let's also do a much better job of getting the word out as regards people like them as well...

FYI...

:SuN020:

brother james...don't give him ur energy like that....
he knows no one here agrees with his vantage point so
his only purpose in being here is to create a disruption....
we have only fueled his current zeal....

one love
khasm

his only purpose in being here is to create a disruption....

i know. i just wanted to hear him say it

to my knowledge i have answered those questions that you have addressed to me.
i see here that you will not answer a simple one that i have directed to you.
oh well.

Would you agree that if the sole source of our problems is White supremacy, we are completely dependent upon total annihalation of white supremacy in order to stop our self destructive behavior?


YOU TAPPED DANCED ON THIS ONE CLAIMING NO TWO PEOPLE HAD THE EXACT SAME BACKGROUND. THAT IS A DODGE AND YOU KNOW IT. DEAL WITH THE QUESTION.
Also, how would we differentiate between two black men who are from the same background, with the same life experiences? If one of them are doing the right thing, being a man, and taking care of his business and the other is slacking, taking advantage of the women in his life and blaming all of his problems on white supremacy? They both have the same back ground and life experiences so what hinders one while the other thrives?

THIS WAS YOUR FIRST ANSWER....I HAD TO PRESS YOU REPEATEDLY TO GET THE TAP DANCE ANSWER.
the owner of the system of white supremacy is responsible for everything that goes on in that system.


Do you acknowledge or deny that Blacks sold or traded their own race to Whites and/or Jewish Slave traders


THIS IS NOT AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION ASKED, AS I HAVE TOLD YOU, YOU ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ASKED AND AVOID THOSE YOU DON'T WANT TO FACE.
i do not believe that black people were the impetus of the slave trade.
PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED.



Since slavery is ongoing to this very day in Africa, It is obvious that blacks participated in slavery, they still are.

Is this not true? Do you deny that slavery of blacks by blacks in Africa is still ongoing?


If we continue to live in the United States, we have no choice but to succeed in and among white people or accept an existence below our potential. Do you see any other alternative to this? If you see an alternative, is there any active movement or path toward that alternative ongoing?



The cause is still not settled, but my question is: Do we agree that OOW is a problem? THIS IS A YES OR NO QUESTION

Do we agree that unless something is done, the rate will continue to increase as it has since the Moynihan report warned us it would? SINCE THE CLAIMS MADE IN THIS REPORT HAVE PROVEN TO BE ACCURATE, RATHER YOU "HEAR" IT OR NOT IS IRRELEVENT.


Do we agree that White people cannot OR will not (even if they could) do anything about it? Do we agree that solving this problem is up to us?


Show a good faith effort and answer these questions.

Rather you "hear" Moynihan or not, I guarantee you Khasm13 knows that OOW child birth is a problem for us and he knows that the numbers I presented are accurate. (70% OOW rate for Blacks 30% OOW rate for Whites) He works for a non-profit organization that helps teenage underprivileged mothers with getting prenatal care and early childhood education...we also conduct screenings for mothers that are depressed so that we can help them get the help they need...for them and most importantly the child...

i ignore those who i chose to ignore.

now, i asked you a simple question.

you have already figured out the solution and implemented it.
if you have a solution and no one of us does, why are you here?
what do you need us for?

I have not figured out the solution in its entirety, but I know that it will involve a massive movement on the scale of the Civil Rights Movement and will involve us doing some things differently that how we do things today. This will mean a behavior change. Just like during the civil rights movement, we seen TACTICS employed that were focused on a definative, measurable goal. This was different from before (behavior change) where they complained about conditions individually but did little or nothing as a collective. The solution for us today is collective unity focused on a definative goal. This will require an honest assesment of our problems...rather we agree on the cause is not as important as an agreement that we need to SOLVE them. We can have civil discussions about the solutions once we decide to unify among ourselves.

When we fight as you and I have, when we should be on the same team, we are playing into the hands of racist white supremacist.

So, no I have not implemented the solution, but I am here presenting alternatives to the ideas that have not resulted in solutions over the past 40 years. I am working with groups of strong positive brothers who do agree with me and reaching out to those who don't.

Why am I here? Reaching out to those who don't agree with me. Not to convert, but to discuss. To have an exchange of ideas...not a shouting match or an attack of one anothers ideas. Those who want to have a civil, respectable exchange of ideas, I welcome it and will do so respectfully. Those who don't, we can respectfully agree to dissagree. But, asking me to go away will accomplish nothing at all with me. (unless your name is Destee) I consider that a sign of weakness, a sign that you are incapable of having a respectful exchange of ideas with those who hold opposing views...a sign that you lack skills in conflict resolution. So, complaining about my presence is a waste of time, I don't "hear" that noise.

What do I need you all for? Black people need us to be unified. Our people need us to secure a better future for our children. Just like those who endured hardship and sacrifice to secure a better future for us during the Civil rights movement, our children need us to unify against destruction, our condition, racism, oppression, and white supremacy....not against each other.

to my knowledge i have answered those questions that you have addressed to me.
i see here that you will not answer a simple one that i have directed to you.
oh well.

Now, I took the first step. I answered your "simple" question in good faith even before you answered mine. Lets see if you are willing to "man-up" and answer mine?

If you choose to, wonderful. If you choose not, we are back to agreeing to disagree. In which case, don't consume yourself with what makes me tick or why I am here.

Now, I took the first step. I answered your "simple" question in good faith even before you answered mine. Lets see if you are willing to "man-up" and answer mine?

If you choose to, wonderful. If you choose not, we are back to agreeing to disagree. In which case, don't consume yourself with what makes me tick or why I am here.

as i said, i have answered each of those questions. you did not agree with what i said.
you immediately called names and accused me of this and that.

you do not want an answer. you do not even want a conversation.
you want agreement. i cannot provide that.

Would you agree that if the sole source of our problems is White supremacy, we are completely dependent upon total annihilation of white supremacy in order to stop our self destructive behavior?

i have said on many occasions - the white man is the problem, the black man is the solution.

if you get the flu the flu virus is the problem, the antibody is the solution. if you cannot produce enough antibodies to kill the virus you will die. your role is to reinforce and strengthen the immune system. you take measures to make yourself stronger. going around saying stuff like "that virus ain't hurting me" will not get it done.
you will either produce antibodies or you will die. hating on yourself for getting sick will not help you.

we are not dependant on the annihilation of white supremacy but we are dependant on recognizing the source of our problems.
you cannot fight a war if you do not even know who the enemy is.

once you learn the source of the self destructive behavior it is fairly easy to stop it. at least it was in my case.

Brother Blue Print ... unfortunately, i think you're Brother Excel10k too. Members do sometimes come back, get back in, after being permanently banned ... but you're going to have to let more time go by, or not look like your own self, to be able to pull that off.

It's nothing personal ... but if you've been banned, and i believe you're back ... just days after, it's another sign of disrespect on your part, still not willing to abide by our rules and regulations, which includes, honoring the suspension / ban that was a consequence of your own behavior.

Much Love and Peace.

:heart:

Destee

praise the Lord.....

one love
khasm