Why do some people have problems when a Black woman identifies herself as a "feminist"?

Should a Black woman only be concerned with racism and ignore sexism?

There are some who blame Black feminists for the demise of the Black family. They think being a feminist makes a Black woman too aggressive, less subservient to her man, sexually promiscuous, morally corrupt by promoting single-motherhood and unable to raise sons.

Some people think that to be a feminist means you're a lesbian and must hate men in order to fight sexism.

During the 60s and 70s, many Black women were already race-conscious but they also became gender-conscious as well. Many of these women were becoming prominent writers and activists in their own right.

Some say that all feminists are opposed to "catering" to their husbands or partners needs. If she does and her husband also caters to her needs, what does that make her?

Some women "sell" sex: prostitution, pornography, music videos, etc. Some say that these women create a stereotype and make it bad for all women. Do you blame the women, the men who participate, both, or none.

If a man opposes the oppression of sexism, is he a "feminist"?

Can a feminist also be a Christian, a Muslim or practice any other religious dogma?

A Black woman tells of her struggle to discover who she is and calls herself a feminist.

http://www.blackculturalstudies.org/wallace/hellandback.html

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

Because racism for us is a much bigger problem than feminism. If the issue of racism is solved, both genders would have better financial lives and more respect.
:o

How do you weigh the difference between racism and sexism?

What makes you think that sexism is only about finances and respect?

So you, a Black man, has taken it upon yourself to conclude for ALL Black people, that how we're treated as Blacks is more important than how Black women are treated?

Why can't they both be important? So, what is the source of your information?

Peace

Keme...I think you're mixing things up a bit.

First of all, Civil Rights Laws includes race and gender. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race and gender, etc. The civil rights movement is not confined to race, but also includes gender, among other issues.

Sex discrimination is an act. Sexism is a combination of attitudes and treatment. Sexism is not just about equal pay for equal work for women. Your commentary is extremely narrow and I'm speaking of a much broader issue.

I agree affirmative action is still important although I do think it needs to be revisited and fine tuned. For admissions policies, there's no uniform way affirmative action is practiced and that's where institutions get into trouble. For employment, affirmative action standards are proscribed with a standard formula.

For Black women, I don't think addressing both "isms" is a waste of precious energy. In fact, I don't see how one can be successful without the other. Both deal with one's perception of rights to how people should be treated in a society. How can a Black woman feel complete if she has freedom as a Black person but not as a woman?

It's obvious I don't view sex discrimination and sexism the same as you. That's okay. I'm not sure that you understand where I'm coming from when I say that ALL "isms" are wrong and should be eradicated if they subject anyone to oppression and discrimination based on who people are which I consider superficial and biased reasoning.

Let me see if I can explain this one more time. Women, as a gender, as a group, are oppressed. In some societies more than others, women experience oppression of some sort because she's a woman.

Now, Black people are oppressed. In some societies more than others, Black people experience oppression in some form or another simply because of their origin and color of their skin.

As a Black woman, I'm in a dual dilemma, often referred to as a two-edged sword, for the reasons given above. Comparatively, men, overall, are not oppressed. BLACK men are however.

If anyone experiences oppression of any type, thinks it's wrong, suffers from the effects of it, and fights to do away with it, then they should understand why it shouldn't be tolerated in any form. How can a Black man want the freedom to "be" and not want the same for his woman in all aspects?

I don't think that I made an assumption that we can't gain freedom together. What I asked you was why you thought that addressing sexism was a waste of precious energy? I also stated my belief that unless a Black woman can be freed from sexist treatment, she will not fully experience what it truly means to be free.

MHO...of course.

Should I laugh or should I cry? *LOL*

Then why don't you cite them if you know them? Help all the readers out by providing some facts!

What in sam hill are you talking about man? Why is it that a discussion can never take place without you ALWAYS bringing up negative pig slop about WOMEN?? What is your problem???

This is NOT a thread about women who sexually harass people. Will you please GET OVER whatever is in your shorts!!!

Good grief. . .

I don't think there ever was a question that women aren't equal to men. People with small minds and narrow views always make it an issue and you prove my point.

I disagree that feminist views, independent of white women's involvement in a movement, are detrimental to Black women. The way a person is treated, irrespective of their race or gender, should always be an important issue when it comes to dealing with a racist/sexist society.

I repeat, this thread is not about sexual harassment and how women mistreat men! Get over it! It's about disparate treatment, specifically as it relates to people's views about Black women who fight for the eradication of discrimination and oppression. As is typical your style, you take the discussion out of context.

Yes I will continue to post Kemestry...in spite of you and because of you. Don't try to flip the script and accuse me of trying to control the conversation sir. You're the master of that. Because you can't deal with facts instead of the usual figment of your own imagination is not our problem. Whenever you're asked to provide proof to support your supercilious comments, you can never come up with anything substantial. So as you always do, you attack. As far as someone being sexist....ummmm...looked in the mirror lately?

It's too bad it seems I've touched a nerve. Aaaaahhhh...fatal flaw it seems.

Peace! :D

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

Showing that women are equal to men in doing wrong derogatory about women? This is a thread about the efficacy of feminism on black women. If you dont want to delve into it then dont post. I gave examples of you feminism has been a detriment. You're trying to control the convo for your own conclusion. You're using any evidence showing that conclusion may be wrong as an afront to all women. BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I submit your actions are sexist!


Interesting...I wouldnt' say its' been a detriment but I really would like to hear NNQueen's opinion of how the feminist helped bw.

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

Blackeyes
You say it hasnt been a detriment? Please look at the state of the black family structure, ( such that it is ) and tell me how it hasnt been a detriment? Because, I see very little beneficial things that came out of it.


One thing can't be the sole reason for the state of the black family structure. I just think that's another attempt to blame bw for the problems in the bfamily.

blackeyes....Welcome to the forums! :wave: I've been trying to answer your question for 3 hrs but I'm having serious computer problems tonight. This is my THIRD attempt... :(

I can't remember everything that I had written originally, but I'll do my best to answer your question as best I can. Hopefully, this version will post successfully! :)

How has feminism helped Black women? Approaching this as a Black woman, I can respond to this question in several ways. First of all, the feminist movement (which was never confined to White women only) has helped to put issues related to women on a public, private and political agenda. Any type of "ism" is not good, in my opinion, because they are designed to oppress and confine people to certain roles and responsibilities because of a human characteristic that is beyond an individual's or group's control.

Living in a male-dominated society, women used to fare unequal treatment politically, economically and socially in America. I personally don't believe that women should be treated differently just because she's a woman. I believe that women should be "free" to do whatever they choose in life as should men.

There's nothing wrong with being a wife and mother, if a woman chooses that path in life. Neither is there anything wrong with being a woman corporate executive and requesting a tampon dispenser in the women's washroom or even a unisex washroom in the workplace.

The feminist movement has helped Black women to also gain better access to colleges/universities, broader access to career choices and college degrees.

In the workplace, the feminist movement has helped Black women to better childcare benefits, maternity leave policies, protection against inappropriate treatment in the workplace, even to be able to address what she might perceive as sex discrimination in hiring and promotion opportunities.

Economically, access to credit and the opportunity for her to build a credit history without the co-signature/approval of a man, right to expect equal pay for equal work.

Health-wise, better research about diseases that affect women and women of color, greater control of her body and freedom to enjoy being sexual, right to say "No" and not be raped by husband, lover or acquaintance.

Just a few examples of the way I see how the feminist movement has helped Black women. It has increased her chances of being "free" as a woman, just as the Black movement is (should be) doing because she's Black.

Peace!

Here's additional information about Black women and the impact of racism and sexism:

"Throughout African-American history, African-American females have struggled viciously alongside the Black male in the fight against racism. To their dismay Black women failed to realize that not only were they oppressed because of race, but gender was the key element for their oppression. Black women further failed to admit that the Black male played a dominant role in their oppression. Consequently , thirty-five years of Affirmative-Action legislation has failed to affirm the rights of Black women.

African-American women must begin a drive to affirm their rights based on gender. They must fight against sexism. When Americans refers to the Black race, they are identifying with only the Black male. Unfortunately, Black males are a contributing factor in the oppression of the Black female, stemming from the fact that the majority of African -American households in America are headed by Black females. Subsequently, Black females can no longer allow negative stereotyping by the music industry and television."

http://erights4all.com/now/pinellasnow/affirm.htm

What do you think?

Black females are also a contributing factor to Black female headed households. I know some women who got pregnant by their boyfriends, he proposed, she said no. He was good enough for her to lay down with and produce a child, but not good enough to marry. Many Black women now don't want to get married. They just want a child.

as much as we black females contribute to our own dilemmas.. the concept of coming together, what nnqueen calls feminism, is very important. I think she has spelled out significant reasons for gender support.
I have always had a difficult time with the word feminism.. it seems to lead to tensions and misdirection of focus. That may be a generatiional thing. But the need for women of color to exercise a collective energy is historically proven.
<caron>he question arises nnqueen when you speak of feminism do you speak for the idea of women as a tribe or specifically women of color?
It is obvious that you are not negating the black male and recognize the need for we as a people to focus together and act to as a oneness for us to suceed on many levels. It is refreshing when women support each other and continually gives me hope.

AAahhh deepy...great questions. Welcome to the forums and thank you for sharing your insight! :)

To me, the context of feminism has a broad meaning and coverage. Although white women have been prominent and influential in this area, a feminist perspective is not just about them. Believe it or not, you don't even have to be a woman to be a "feminist." It's true, I know several men who refer to themselves as such and no, they're not gay.

I'm opposed to oppression of any kind, yielded toward anyone. But the focus that I lean heavily toward whenever I address feminism here, pertains strictly to African women and our struggles. For those who are ready to jump on me and say I'm biased, what I'm talking about when I say oppression is more than abuse. It's deeper than that. It's about subjecting African women to a social condition that is politically, psychologically and socially oppressive in nature simply because she is a woman.

From my perspective, I don't think it will ever be possible for us as a people to achieve the full extent of our greatness without coming together to fight the battles against racial and sexual oppression for Black men AND Black women. This is the only way that our families and our community will ever survive whole and healthy.

For us to focus our attention only on racism will not get us where we want to be as a people. We have to expand our thinking to include how Black women are treated and viewed in this society because of her gender. Black women need to stop contributing to her own demise and understand how her way of thinking and behaving could and often does perpetuate her unfavorable condition.

For us to blame each other continuously for the ills in our community, will keep the slave boot on our brows. For Black men to want freedom from an oppressive society and not recognize how he may contribute to the oppression of his woman, will keep tearing us apart. Black men cannot raise up in society without his woman coming along by his side. If any one among us is not fully free, then none of us are or will be.

I firmly believe that Black men NEED Black women and vice versa. Let's stop pulling away from each other and start moving toward each other. Sure, we can mix and mingle with people of other races, marry and even have mixed babies, but there's something powerful about what is familiar between us that we lose when we're not together loving each other and seeing to it that we're extending ourselves into the future by bringing forth healthy nations of people.

When a Black man looks at me, I want to know what he truly sees because when I look at him, I see greatness! I don't want him looking at me through a white man's eyes because the white man planted that seed of hatred and divisiveness in him. I may be short in physical stature but I want him to see me as his equal on the same eye level and KNOW that I am NOT his enemy! I am his way out of a terrible situation. Black women can help lead a Black man back home where he belongs. But we have to do it together.

My humble opinion! :heart:

i am so in agreement with everything you have said...so for me there (or their-thats always been a hard one for me) is little need for discussion except in how and or what can be done to enlighten each other. the question does arise, however, is it our place to lead or share in the realization . Does the word lead begin to take on a position of control...causing tension. I s their another word that would help in having a dialogue?

Let's not get caught up on words and lose sight of our purpose, mission and our bigger goals. That's been our problem in the past. We let our Egos distract us. A leader is not a leader unless someone is following them. If no one wants to follow you, then you're not a leader by that definition. If everyone wants to be in the lead regardless of whose behind them supporting them, isn't it quite possible that we would all be going off in different directions, accomplishing little to nothing?

Lead, guide, persuade, carry, show the way, uplift...call it whatever we want but let's get about doing it and reap the benefits that can be drawn from the effort.

On a battlefield when two soldiers are fighting side by side and one gets wounded, in order for both to survive that battle, the other must become stronger and fight twice as hard for both of their sakes. If the wounded soldier is a general and the healthy one is a private, does the general care whether the private is leading, guiding, in front of him/her, or is he/she thankful that they are capable of fighting to save both of their lives?

What can we do to enlighten each other? In my opinion, our best armor and weapon is knowledge. Continue to seek it and increase it. Equal to that if not more important is applying the knowledge. Knowledge is power when you act on it.

When we begin to ask questions, we start to grow. When we start seeking out others who might think like us, we begin to build a power base. When we begin to focus and get more involved in our communities by changing our individual behavior (evolving), working together for a common goal, I believe the revolution begins.

What does it take? A simple decision.

Good question deepy!

Peace :heart:

Originally posted by Regina
Black females are also a contributing factor to Black female headed households. I know some women who got pregnant by their boyfriends, he proposed, she said no. He was good enough for her to lay down with and produce a child, but not good enough to marry. Many Black women now don't want to get married. They just want a child.

Your point is well taken and what you write is true. There are Black women who behave this way and there's no denying it. As we can see quite obviously here, all Black women are not alike and there are positives and negatives to that.

But even though some of us behave this way, I'm hopeful they don't represent the majority of us. You certainly don't sound like one of those sisters and I know that I'm not. But still, in spite of my personal opinion about such behavior, I do not judge nor condemn these sisters because it's their right to choose how they want to live. Just because she chooses to be a single mother doesn't automatically make her a "bad" person neither does it mean that her community should desert her and withdraw their support of her efforts to raise a healthy, well-adjusted child. This holds true too for men who are single parents.

The issues I raise here are much bigger than the choices a Black woman makes when she has sex with a man. As we try to build a stronger and more progressive community Regina, surely we don't intend to do that by pointing the finger at and singling out certain brothers and sisters to leave them behind simply because of the choices they made in life.

Our community is us--all of us.

Peace :)

I am not judging but stating truth. I haven't deserted my sisters and brothers nor their children. That is why I am an active volunteer. If we don't help them, some will continue the cycle. One such young lady living at a shelter has 5 children by different men. She had the children by the age of 21. If someone had come into her life at an earlier age, her life could've been different. We can only help her, but we must teach her children this is not the way to go.

Regina,

This information was not included in your original statement. Now you supply a scenario that sends a different message than what you wrote about earlier. Because it appears this woman may be struggling to survive with her children, then yes, she's very fortunate to have you there to help her through these difficult times and I hope she appreciates that.

This thread is about sexism as it relates to male/female interactions politically and socially. I appreciate you sharing your opinion though, because this too is an important issue.

Keep up the great work!

Peace sister!

One issue some Black women have with some feminist groups is they push lesbian rights too. Some heterosexual women feel these groups are radical man-haters.

This is true Regina. Some Black women do have this issue with some feminist groups. Some feminist groups are like the one you described. I'm glad that not all are though.

nnqueen. on the one hand you are very right i think..not to allow words to get in the way of the goals. But it is language that we use to communicate with. It is language /words that help to identify us. As regina continued to voice..we learned more and experience more. when male and female speak don't we have to be clear about what we are saying.. Blue has so many hues...so the exact words that allow for continuance..that keep us thinking , discussing, not explaining what we mean...seem to me to be very important. Sometimes i find that until i find the right word, the specific word i am constantly trying to explain myself. You are very articulate and clear...not all of us have that immediate command. My daughter is a linguist and has begun to really make me understand that words are not judgemental..but until you are specific judgements can get in the way of free wheeling dialoguq between male and female...and even between ourselves...

Originally posted by deepy
...the question does arise, however, is it our place to lead or share in the realization . Does the word lead begin to take on a position of control...causing tension. I s their another word that would help in having a dialogue?

Ok deepy...I'm trying to grasp the point you're raising here. Are you asking is it a woman's role to "lead" vs. "share" and if a woman behaves as a "leader" could that be a point of contention between Black men and Black women?

And if it could be, are you asking whether we should not use that word in reference to whatever contributions women might make and call it something else that is more palatable and less disturbing to men?

What you wrote about language and words, I agree. I understand the power of language and words. You're right, when we communicate we should be clear that our message sent is the same one received by the person or people to whom we are communicating with. (And this is a perfect example of that :) )

I didn't mean to imply that words aren't important in dynamic communication. My point was that I know how people will often get stuck arguing over a word, wanting to call something by another word that never changes the context of what either word means (synonyms).

Is it so important what you call what I do as it is what I actually do?

Peace! :heart:

first...what you do determines , for me, what you or it is called...so the importance is of course in the action.
I am not asking if its a womens role to "lead" or share...i think in relationships and dialogue the "lead" continually shifts - or should.otherwise how can one learn if one is always ttaking charge. I think we, sometimes, in our need to explain, express don't always take that extra moment to find the exact word and that is what can cause tension. I really had /have no problem with the word "lead" as you had originally used it since i felt you were speaking from what i believe was the higher triangle - but i also recognized it as something that could take two people into arguing . which is not what i want to do at all get stuck on a word...enough said about.
am I clear.....thoughts are like throusand waves running through my head...throusands....

Originally posted by deepy
first...what you do determines , for me, what you or it is called...so the importance is of course in the action.

Agreed.

Originally posted by deepy
I am not asking if its a womens role to "lead" or share...i think in relationships and dialogue the "lead" continually shifts - or should.otherwise how can one learn if one is always ttaking charge. I think we, sometimes, in our need to explain, express don't always take that extra moment to find the exact word and that is what can cause tension.

Yes, I understand your point here. Time invested in good communication is time well spent.


Originally posted by deepy
I really had /have no problem with the word "lead" as you had originally used it since i felt you were speaking from what i believe was the higher triangle - but i also recognized it as something that could take two people into arguing . which is not what i want to do at all get stuck on a word...enough said about. am I clear.....thoughts are like throusand waves running through my head...throusands....

Yes, this is clearer and thank you.

Peace :)

Hello! I'm yaphet al-wynn. Kem does have a point on that. Linda Chavez was quoted as saying that her organization or the President's administration CAN still oppose affirmative action but won't, not because of making Black people mad, but making white women or moderates mad.

First of all I'm not a white woman feminist. In addition to being African, I am a woman. Through the course of the work that I do and often on a personal level, I've witnessed oppression of women.

Keme, it's interesting that you, of all people, can't see why a woman would define herself as "feminist". As I've read through most of your threads, it's quite clear to me that you are most judgmental of women, and in many aspects, assessing her less favorably for the same behavior exhibited by men.

I strongly believe in principles as opposed to titles. But sometimes titles are necessary to let people know where you're coming from and what you believe in. Because I refer to myself as feminist doesn't mean that I'm in bed with white women. No, my message and mission is still two-fold--I'm Black and I'm a woman. I am an advocate for the eradication of any form of discrimination and I think I've said this before in other discussions.

To confine one's vision to such narrow views is missing the point. It's about what we do, what we stand for and what we believe in that's more important. I could care less who started the concept of equality and non-discrimination for women and called themselves feminists as a result...my focus is in the principle behind the concept and not the title. I'm not into petty behavior--doing something simply to upset someone. Our work is far too important to reduce it to such penny-annie tactics.

Because some white women feminists don't want to associate with me because I'm Black doesn't bother me in the least. Let that keep them up at night trying to figure out a way to block me but I'm not losing any sleep over it. My people are too important to me for that. Yes, Keme, I'm well aware of the history of the feminist movement. But I don't let that shut me up nor will I allow them to shut me out or shut me down. I'll fight any feminist just as hard to win equality as I would a racist any day. But I will not abandon the principles of equality for women because of them.

Read my words, look at my work and don't be overly concerned about what I and other Sisters like me call ourselves. Sisters come up with another title to describe their combined mission, then let's talk about that. I've seen where conscious Black women literary artists refer to themselve as "Womanists"...because of their conscious writings. But I'm not a professional writer.

Peace!

Are you judging me and my personal choices, Keme? You prove my point!

White feminists have definitely used us for their gain. If you are a part of a feminist group, ask them why have they left Black women behind and check out their response.

I am all for equal rights for women but I will not intrude on the rights of others, namely my brothers. I attended a NOW meeting once and was so turned off by the fanaticism in the group. Being polite, I am not going to tell you exactly what I thought of the women. It could've been just that chapter or just an example of some of the radical people in the organization.

Until I see a dramatic improvement over their own personal and professional interests, I will not join a "feminist" group. Actions speak louder than words. All I see is a continual destruction of our families, an increased abortion rate and continual poverty.

It's interesting to me that when a person uses a label to describe their political beliefs that some people automatically assume that they know full well what that means and who they are.

I wasn't aware of the fact that in order to be a feminist that you HAD to be a member or affiliated with an organization that might adopt similar views. If someone said they were a civil rights activist, would you necessarily know them and the organizations they might be affiliated with? :)

Because some people make these gross assumptions, they completely miss the point because they have preconceived notions about it or they tend to stereotype people and put them in what they think are nice, neat little categories, much like the treatment Blacks receive in society. Interesting.

For example, I am not nor have ever had an interest in being affiliated with the National Organization of Women. I'm very aware of how that group originated and that Shirley Chisholm played a key role in it. I also know why she detached herself from the group. I know the history of the suffrage movement, as it's called when referring to white women seeking the right to vote. I know about the reasons behind the separation between (and prompted by) white women and Blacks.

It's okay to think differently and have your own set of beliefs, but why judge others or assume that you know who they are without the facts?

But nevertheless this is interesting discussion contributed to by diverse perspectives and I think that always helps people to learn and grow!

Peace :)

i still have to finish reading the entire article... but the part i did read i found very interesting... you hit me with so much info i still have to ponder... & digest this food 4 thought...

you ask can a Christian, Muslim, etc... be a feminist... well i'm still trying to figure that one out sis :)... i'm Muslim and i do all the wifey stuff (cook, clean, console, ETC, ETC, ETC!!!) but i find i do have Feminist ideas about somethings and it's causing conflict w/n... (gurl, i'm a gemini... & i don't know how much longer i'll fit in this box... trying to uphold my "so-called" duties as a woman)

i do believe in self-sacrifice for family... BUT i do think women need to sacrifice much more time for ourselves to find TRUE SELF...

peace

p.s... when i finish reading the article... i'll get back @ ya :)

Self-inspection is a good thing to practice in my opinion. A person should assess their beliefs from time to time because we are a dynamic people, we change as we grow and develop. What I believed in when I was a younger woman has changed over the years to some degree as I've gotten older. My experiences have made an impact on me as they do on all of us.

As you look into what is changing about you and think about the reasons why, may I suggerst that you don't let anyone make you feel guilty for doing this or feeling this way. Obviously you are woman enough to recognize that there may be more to our existence than you once believed and feel the need to explore what it might be. You might discover that what you've been doing all along is the right path for you, then again, you might see a need to make a few shifts and changes.

I look forward to reading what you think about the article when you've had the chance to read it completely.

Peace sister! :)

Shows you how much you know, Keme! :D

Peace NNQueen,

finally finished the first link given reference to... indeed she's had many experiences... i've read an extract by her in Margaret Busby's Daughters of Africa and found it very interesting...

personally i can relate to being surrounded by SUPERWOMEN all of my life... seems like many Black women, past & present, have had to run households & raise many children w/o Black men (for whatever reason he was absent)...

even looking @ the experiences in slavery... Black men weren't really allowed to be men... thus, Black women had to do what they had to do... since our men served as neither providers or protectors... perhaps the hands dealt & passed down from generation to generation have helped create feminist ideas & sentiments some of us possess...

also read the second link about Black men and the part they play in the oppression of Black women... this too, was so on point sistah...

reading some of the previous posts to this thread i see some have issue with what happens to family life when mama has feminist ideas... (another ex: Oprah Killed My Mama thread) but i would encourage we look closer @ why we have these ideas & how many Black men are quick to put women in "their place" w/o first examining what role he's playing in the division of the home...

i do agree that some of our men are serving as our oppressors right along w/ "the white man"... don't know if the majority of our men feel so belittled in society that they feel we must be belittled @ home to make them feel like big men... when in no other arena they feel that way...

there is much work to be done for sure... some how or another the Black man & Black woman have to come together and fix this mess!!!... to truly create some happy homes :)...

peace

p.s... i like the analogy you give about the soilders on the battlefield... makes so much sense... :)

NADIA*BINTA, my Sister/Warrior...how refreshing it was to read your post. And not because you agree with me but because you recognize the balance that is required in order for Black men and Black women to truly be free from oppression of any kind.

It is always easier to look outside of ourselves and point the finger at someone else, but when it's necessary for us to inspect ourselves and who we are, we get upset and make excuses for why we can't do something or shouldn't do something.

I firmly believe and haven't changed my thinking here that race is no more important that sex when it comes to discrimination. Both are social constructs and are pariahs. BOTH can be dealt with at the same time and no one has convinced me that they can't be or shouldn't be addressed that way.

So let's stop mincing over words and getting hung up by our egos and work together to help each other get what we both want--freedom to just "be" without the social poison driven by elitist attitudes!

Great post Nadia....Peace my sister!! :heart:

Peace, I'd like to reply to that. To NNQueen. Peace Sister. I feel that male supremacy is the parent to racism. There may well be no racism is there wasn't male supremacy. It's no waste of energy to get rid of male supremacy FIRST! And to those who think Black women seek out dysfunctional relationships, I would agree with NNQUEEN that no they don't. The man is usually the one who trips. 'Oh I'm a man! I'm the head of the house and all that.' If she trips, it's more than likely a reaction to his trippin that he's all that. OK Brothers. You want to be in charge? Then take the lead and admit how you would feel if the table were turned, and you were Mr. her. Personally, I am not looking for a wife. I want a partner. I live the life of a lone wolf. Not because of the sisters, I love all Black Women. To me they are the Creators of ALL life. I live that way first because I leave hardly any trail. And secondly, I do not want a woman who is content in playing the role the man has created for her. I want a warrior. A Spiritual warrior, like the Candices. I really didn't need to say all that in response to you, but I did anyway. I don't mean to bore you with my story. If ever I say anything to offend anyone of you, my apologies are forthwith. I love you all. I LOVE my people very much.

I understand fully why we live the life we do in america and around the world. I understand the Good and the bad in us.
And as far as supreme court rulings? Well you all know how I would feel about that. No safety whatsoever. 'WE THE PEOPLE' to me does not mean us. We were so-called property, when those two words were coined.

With all due respect to Queenie's thread and all who have contributed to it, i must admit that i've not read it all.

I did read Brother Chaka's most recent post and must let him know that the more i read him, the more i need him! Your words are so soothing! Do you know how many Sisters could press their way a little further, simply because they heard / read your words?!!

You really should host a voice chat Brother Chaka, allow us full benefit of your wisdom, insight and knowledge, while we can have it. WoW. Beautiful. Thank You.

:heart:

Destee

I second your opinion, Des! Come on Brother Chaka, please join us and let's do this together!

Queenie
:heart:

I really enjoyed reading your comments! I firmly identify myself as a black feminist / womanist...and I could careless what others believe or think about the manner. I define and decide what being a black feminist means to and for me.

"This past week there was a several part series on PBS dealing with the founders of the Womens' Right to Vote movement and how it spawned the modern feminist movement. It focused on Susan B Anthony and Mary Stanton. They were both raised in/with a staunch abolitionists background. They launched their movement largely because they began to recognized that women had a lot in common with slaves. They launched their movement by giving speeches, writing letters and forming alliances with other womens' groups. Including many of the black organizations of the time.
At their 1st major convention, none other than Fredrick Douglass himself, gave the key speech that got many of their key points ratified and pushed by the retcent males at the event. However, in oder to bring southern women into the movement, Anthony agreed to eliminate any clauses that pushed for black women/people to get the full rights of the vote and citizenship. In fact a key court challenge to stop women was used to created poll taxes and other obstacles for blacks.

In light of this betrayal, and the fact that today, white women have historically been the major beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. Why would any black woman call themselves a feminist?"


I kind of understand what kemetstry is saying in this post. Nnqueen, all of your posts were right on point and i agree with 99.9% of what you said, but i have a question

isn't it true that black femenists dropped the term feminist and called themselves womanists because they were(and still are) being descriminated against by feminist organizations? I've even heard the womans movement referred to as the white womans movement by angry black feminists. I see myself as more of a womanist than a feminist.


peace

Naturaltwistie, that's a good question. I'm not that knowledgeable about the division between the terms feminist and womanist. It wouldn't surprise me though that what you propose is accurate. I do know that certain literary Black women scholars refer to themselves as womanists. Alice Walker is among them. Personally, I try not to get hung up on words or titles and such. What's most important to me is one's belief and their personal commitment to it demonstrated by the way they live their lives daily.

I too understand the point that Kemestry tries to make. What I tend to disagree with Kemestry on is his argument that racial oppression is far worse and more important than gender oppression. In my opinion, any form of oppression should be abhorred and fought against and I don't know that it's feasible or even possible to weigh any comparison.

All things being equal, should a white person get paid more than a Black person for doing the same job? All things being equal, should a white person get hired or promoted over a qualified Black person? All things being equal, should a man get paid more, hired or promoted over a woman?

Sadie...I hear you sister! Our Black men should recognize that many times their sisters are subjected to a double form of discrimination and we need their support in fighting both kinds--race and gender. We need to support each other and not allow ourselves to be pitted against each other in the workplace and in our homes. We need to stop playing games with each other's hearts and minds and begin forming stronger and healthier bonds.

Instead of debating whether race is more important than gender, I would like to know whether our brothers understand why some Black women fight against being treated differently because we are women and how they feel about it.

I'm curious.

I like reading African feminist authors, but I only know of one which is Belle Hooks... What are some others???

Everybody wants to be in control of their own destinies, wants to be on an equal playing field, wants to be free; wether dealing with racism or sexism. I think that racism is more of a concern because it affects both men and woman. When it comes to being free from racism the sexes unite to fight the common goal. But since, well since here in the U.S. the struggle to overcome racism is slowly triumphing -I think the women who were focused on fighting racism have more of an opportunity to focus on the plights they face themselves. Therefore you have the feminist, the woman who is fighting alone, the woman who could definitely benefit from the support of her black man.

But how can a black man worry about his woman, if he himself is being persecuted? Well, I think the answer to that question is partly due to selfishness. I am inclined to think that if both black men and black women fought together against any persecution against them (wether racist or sexist), then the confessions of a feminist may include a sense of gratitude towards men, a and sense of self-consciousness or love for simply being beautiful, black and feminine.

Greetings Melanistic and welcome to our forums. We hope you take full advantage of the many opportunities we offer you here including our radio station, ************* and especially our dynamic chatrooms with Voice Chat features. There we offer classes on a variety of topics, live poetry readings but most of all, we offer a warm place to sit back to relax among friends and comrades in the struggle, while listening to our music. We have heard testimonies from people who never particularly liked the chatroom scene, how much they enjoy ours and have now become regulars.

Thank you for joining us and posting your comments to this thread. I found them to be very insightful. I do have one question to ask you though. Can you explain further, maybe providing some examples of, how the struggle to overcome racism in the U.S. is slowly triumphing?

I read your message several times, but I don't understand your question or subsequent points you raised. Your description of the evolution of dominance and power makes sense in terms of a time when physical strength was essential to one's survival...hunting and killing for food and shelter. But these are modern times and are you suggesting that the same holds true today?

I would suggest that today, mental strength is more critical today as opposed to physical strength. As such, this creates a whole new dynamic in the male/female paradigm don't you think?

During times when women couldn't physically overpower the strength of a man, used her brain power to survive and to help her family to survive. Women had much to offer in terms of the survival and extension of a society so she was seen as adding value to a tribe, particularly if she was in her childbearing years.

Are you suggesting, Keme, that men and women haven't changed much over time, that men still use brute force while women continue to use her brains?

Help me to understand your point...

answering the original question...
it's never wrong to stand up for what is right...never!!!!

but on the other hand we must look at the dynamics of the situation that black folks are living in...nowdays black women have it better then black men...black women do not feel the same amount of discrimination in the workplace as black men do...i see it everyday, black women are considered less of a threat then black men...black men are considered a threat to everyone, even ourselves...racism in this country affects blacks more then sexism...for every act of sexism i see, i see 20 acts of racism...to tell you the truth i can't remember the last time i have seen an act of blatant sexism...i'm not say'n that it doesn't exist cause it does but the levels are not equivalent, not at all...my thought process is that black women should be a activist against racism in this country first, then a activist against sexism second...sexism isn't the reason why black folks are have'n such a hard time now...it's brainwashing and racism...do women get turned down for homeloans because they are women...no...true, some women get turned down for promotions because they are women but which one is more important...fighting for women or fighting for black people in this country...because by fighting for strictly women you are also fighting for white women who could probably care less about you and what you stand for...don't get me wrong, i hope i live to see the day of a woman president...but i hope to see a black one first...seewhatimsaying?
peace
khasm

formerly Sadie Brown
Why should black women prioritize racism over sexism or sexism over racism? Black women experience sexualized racsim..it's not a simple either or. I believe black women to often are given a guilt trip by some well meaning and some not wo well meaning black men and women to abandon any discussion regarding gender inequality. When black men argue that black men are discriminated against in the job market and use this a the sole basis for putting race first...it's simple an example of who male oppression (here black male oppression is priviledged) Who decided that economics are the msot important factor? What about violence against women and children...what isn't this a priority....most of the violence women experience occurs in their home. What is more important money or family life? This is what is missed often. Sexism is not the same as racism gender oppression occurs in a larger contect but also in inimate relationships racism is not the same. This is a serious matter...some black men are inclined to argue that parterniship violence is a result of racism; however, this doesn't explain why white affluent men also commit partenship violence. I would like to also add that men continue to out earn women across the board (although white men out earn white women far more than black men out earn black women) also women a mostly represented in service positions compared to men.

Peace

Hello Sadie's Brown and welcome to our community. You make some very good points in your message and I agree, racism and sexism are not an either or situation. They are both important to understand and fight against.

While you're here Sadie, I hope you visit us in Voice Chat and have your speakers and mic handy because you won't want to miss any part of our interesting discussions, including sharing what you have to say.

Also, if you haven't already, you have to check out our Black Mic radio station. It's absolutely the BEST, and we guarantee it! :spin: The selection of music fits all occasions...while working, relaxing and for entertaining. You can't go wrong listening to Black Mic!

Peace! :wave:

@sadie's

to me...the ghetto deceided that economics is first...here in chicago things are pretty bad in terms of the economic growth of black folks...everyday when i go to work i see a black cat(usually male) sleep on the L because he's trying to stay warm from the harsh elements....i'm not puting figting for your rights down at all, not at all, but to me, all we are doing, in terms of divide'n our energies, is playing into white folks hands. I heard this old white man say onetime in passing that all you have to do is give a black man a television set and he'll get confused...the essence of the matter is do what you feel is right...with all the problems that black men are having right now in this country, maybe i should start up a power to the black man committee(lol)...naw, i digress
peace
khasm

btw...that show Good Times, was not a fictional sitcom...it's like that everyday all day for some folks...too many black folks...unity is the only thing that is going to pull us up out of the dregs of society...and the bottom of the economic ladder...question, does anyone care about who gets paid everytime we buy a diamond ring or ear rings?
i know i do...but again, i digress
peace
khasm

"...i'm not puting figting for your rights down at all, not at all, but to me, all we are doing, in terms of divide'n our energies, is playing into white folks hands..."

I wasn't quite sure whose rights were you speaking of black women's or black person's in general? Any right for a black woman is in fact a right for the black community. Gender differences in pay harms black families just as differences in pay due to race is harmful to the black family. Harm to black women and children is affects to the ablack fmaily and community. It shouldn't been seen as black women's right because black women are black persons also? If "we" are truly interested in economics we should also focus on how black women and other women of color earn less in general than white men, black men, other men of color, and white men.

I don't believe that these issues have to be divded...while I think that black women would benfit greatly from demanding that their double ism be one off the top priorities on any "national black agenda."... Yes racism affects black women and black men differently because of of gender and both black men and black women will have to understand and listen to how this plays out if we going to have any hope of an united front. I'm kinda of offended that sexism is seen as a energy divider. Okay where's the spell check button?

sadie...
if you are coming from a black family perspective then thas cool...i can dig that
what i don't like seeing is black women showing so much vim and vigor for fighting sexism
without showing the same for racism
to me...thas a huge slap in the face
because whether you can see it or not
there is a difference between sexism and racism....
they are both wrong...but from my opinion
racism plays a larger role in the reason
why we are at the bottom
this is only my humble opinion...:)
peace
khasm

sadie...
if you are coming from a black family perspective then thas cool...i can dig that
what i don't like seeing is black women showing so much vim and vigor for fighting sexism
without showing the same for racism
to me...thas a huge slap in the face
because whether you can see it or not
there is a difference between sexism and racism....
they are both wrong...but from my opinion
racism plays a larger role in the reason
why we are at the bottom
this is only my humble opinion...:)
peace
khasm


Very well said Khasm. Racism has historically been much more insidious to black men and women in this country. Racism is an assualt on the black family as a whole, not just one gender

Yes racism has affected "us" as a entire group;however, because of gender it has affected "us" differently. This doesen't necessairly mean black women have it worst or black men have it worst. It means we have it different! Why can't their be some dialogue about this fact without negating this fact? How can we have unity without trying to understand how racism is wounding to black folks differently base on all kinds of factors-gender, class, etc? We do not all experience racism the same way.

Peace!

Good question and points sadie's brown. Now let's see who can broaden their focus to at least give a sense that they understand what sexism means and how it impacts both men and women.

Khasm, here are some interesting essays that could help you understand why there is just as much of a need for black women(not just black women, but black men as well) to focus on sexism as it is for us to focus on racsim. both sexism and racism have a negative effect on black women AND black men. and, they both effect us in different ways. Race has always been male dominated, which is why black women need seperate political intities that deal specifically centered around black women. most of the time when the term black is used, it usually implies the black man. Meaning the main focus is on the black man. when the term woman is used, it's usually centered around a white woman. The black woman has always been implied but never visible. black liberation rhetoric has always been centered around black men, while black women were always secondary concerns in most cases. Feminism has always been centered around white women. Where do black women fit in to the equation? In my opinion, all black men should join black women and become black feminists just like most black women seem to be concerned with how race (which has always put the black mens issues first) has always affected black people. both black women and black men should be just as concerned with sexism as they are with racism. My sociology professor is a black male femiist because he realizes how sexism plays into every aspect of our lives as human beings.Most black women have always been concerned with race while denying that sexism even factors into their lives. but, anyway these articles should be a lot of help in helping you understand where black women are coming from when they become feminists or womanists.

1. Rosemary K. Curb, "Pre-Feminism in the Black Revolutionary Drama of Sonia Sanchez," in The Many Forms of Drama, edited by Karelisa V. Hartigan, University Press of America, 1985, pp. 19-29. Reproduced by permission.

http://80-galenet.galegroup.com.ezproxy.lib.uh.edu/servlet/LitRC?vrsn=3&OP=contains&locID=txshracd2588&srchtp=athr&ca=1&c=2&ste=6&tab=1&tbst=arp&ai=77826&n=10&docNum=H1104410000&ST=sonia+sanchez&bConts=15023

2.Race has everything to do with it

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/06/28/violence/

3. 'Which Me Will Survive': Audre Lorde and the Development of a Black Feminist Ideology

http://www.sistahspace.com/nommo/wom231.html

4. But Some of Us Are Brave: A History of Black Feminism in the United States
http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/thistle/v9/9.01/6blackf.html


5. Los Angeles Shooting -- Are Black Women the New Menace to Society?http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/5.11/990525-black-women.html

6. http://projects.is.asu.edu/pipermail/hpn/2000-October/001749.html

7.NO!

http://www.daveyd.com/newshiphopspeaks.html

8. Emerging from the shadows: Changing patterns in gender matters.

http://www.sistahspace.com/nommo/wom401.html

lktpolit---
like i said in a previous post.....
i can dig that
all i'm saying is that
black is black...
peace
khasm

Excellent post, Lktpolit! I agree with you that, just as racism is a community issue for Black people, so should be sexism and not either or! It's good to see students being challenged to think for themselves based on what they are being taught in the classroom. In this regard, it sounds like your prof is doing a good job in helping you help us to better understand sexism and its impact on us as a community.

Peace and Ashe!

Excellent post, Lktpolit! I agree with you that, just as racism is a community issue for Black people, so should be sexism and not either or! It's good to see students being challenged to think for themselves based on what they are being taught in the classroom. In this regard, it sounds like your prof is doing a good job in helping you help us to better understand sexism and its impact on us as a community.

Peace and Ashe!

Thanks a lot NNQueen, :sand:

sorry for such a late response. i haven't been on lately.

Allow me to set clarify something. those articles don't talk about how sexism affects both black men and black women, they talk about the reason there is a need to focus on sexism within the black community. But, in my opinion both sexism and racism affect black men and women in different ways.

again, thanks a lot for your words of encouragement. :toast:

p.s., my professor is a straight black man. Just felt the need to let people know that because the first thing people seem to think when they hear about a male feminist is that he is possibly gay for some reason. I tell ya, people have too many pre-concieved notions about feminists.


peace :heart:

what boggles my mind is that black women in todays time have more opportunities then black men do...look at the daily news...do you see more black women or black men as news reporters?...more black women are in college then black men and there is no comparison in federal assistance between the two sexes...none at all...custody laws favor the woman in all states in this country and treat men like dirt...what does the black man have that the black woman doesn't?

in my opinion and i am talking about rights...the answer to this question is nothing...i pose another question...what do white men have that black men don't?

this list would be too long to name and in doing so i might get mad and have this ruin my day...like i said earlier, i'm not puting womens rights down, but LOGIC not EMOTION dictates that the greater evil must be conquered before the greatest relief is felt...the greater evil has been and still is racism not sexism...i'm not here to try and convice someone to change their thought process...i just don't like seeing people fall for the oke-doke...united we stand, divided we fall...will women that have felt the pain from men continue to let this pain blind them to the big picture?...the big picture being black folks taking back what was taken from them...i know my wordz will be taken out of context...but i am glad just to be here to say them :)
one love
khasm

"what boggles my mind is that black women in todays time have more opportunities then black men do...look at the daily news...do you see more black women or black men as news reporters?...more black women are in college then black men and there is no comparison in federal assistance between the two sexes...none at all...custody laws favor the woman in all states in this country and treat men like dirt...what does the black man have that the black woman doesn't?"

Men continue to out earn women period. The masses of black women are not college educated. More than likely they are over-represented in service jobs. More women are attending college than men are period black or white. What's the deal about federal assistance? How would you feel if I reasoned that the over-presentation of black men within the criminal justice system and cost that results from this over-representation equals the assistance that black women receive? Custody laws favor children? How do they treat men like dirt (keep in mind my questions is about men across the board)?

If we (black folks) have not evolved enough to understand that sexism damages our community not just from an economic perspective or a legal perspective (rights as you named it) then we are in serious trouble. The amount of violence that is pepurtated against women anc dhilcren within our community, the politics of the church, and family iare reason enough to understand how sexism affects our community. Can this not be looked at while waging a war on racism?

Sadie's Brown, custody laws do favor women, the statistics speak for themselves. Women are traditionally seen as the caregivers.

Yes custody (physical_ is generally awareded to the mother b/c it's really the mother is the parent that provides the majority of care to children. No always but most the time. Men are just as capable to caring for children; however, most are not willing to "put up a big stank" about it..that is they are not willing to assume primary caregiving to children following the divorce (probably during the marriage as well). Because I have worked in the system before, I can say first hand....that there is intreseting empahsis being placed on having joint custody or encouraging fathers to have an active role in the children's lives. If a father winds that a mother is not allowing him to have "access"to the children he needs to request (a third party) mediation from the court. The system was created to ensure that men provided for their offsprings and it needs to be enforced more often!

One thing I really agree with is the conecpet that a man can only have one family. In other words, once a man as married and had three children and later divorces...and remarries another spouse (unless he is super rich) he will not be able to afford a new family. He is responsible for the first family (children that is) until they are "of age." I am largely in favor of this...because women often have limitations place on them since they assume primary caretaking / caregiving to children.They are also less likely to remarry. People continue to argue that money is being lost by men..however no one takes into consideration how having children drastically changes a woman's life beyond money. You can't put a dollar amount on it!

Now I don't agree with some of the alimony argues...but that's another story

Actually, I think there should be requirements to make it harder to get married. Classes such as conflict resolution, parenting, financial planning, etc. should be mandatory.

We tend to pick our professions, colleges, etc. with logic but fail to do the same with a potential life partner.

More and more men are taking on caregivers roles. I hate to see the animosity between parents when it comes to children. Mediation is the key but how can mediation work if one person (usually the woman) holds all the cards and is unwilling to bend? And, how much money is too much money? Is it fair to make a man live on the poverty level if he is an active participant in his children's lives and is financially taking care of his children adequately? What if he wasn't the one who initiated the divorce? Parents should share in the care of the children and the financial responsibility.

In the state of Georgia, the child support guidelines are a percentage of the non-custodial parent's income. They do not take into account the income of the custodial parent. Most of the state's have income shares guidelines which take into account both incomes. However, several of those states have percentage models disguised as income shares.

Some women use their wombs to assist their financial future by having a baby by a man with a high income. A good friend of mine, who played NFL football, said women would actually put pin holds into the condoms in order to get pregnant.

Yes, women with children are less likely to marry because men have a greater pool of partners to choose from and it worsens with age. I would think that would be a good reason for women to hang on to "good" men.

Actually, I think there should be requirements to make it harder to get married. Classes such as conflict resolution, parenting, financial planning, etc. should be mandatoryI agree.

We tend to pick our professions, colleges, etc. with logic but fail to do the same with a potential life partner.
[B]I agree.

More and more men are taking on caregivers roles. I hate to see the animosity between parents when it comes to children. I agree.

Mediation is the key but how can mediation work if one person (usually the woman) holds all the cards and is unwilling to bend?

I agree to a degree. Mediation CAN BE the key but only if mediators are properly trained and unbiased. In the State of Michigan, mediators are used in trying to settle disputes between divorcing parents but it's my experience that some are not too bright and show bias in their deliberations. And guess who toward? The man! Because the system wants fathers to be involved in their children's lives, I've seen where they will overlook any factual proof that shows he's not serious about it and don't care whether he's lying to them or not. Some men play the system very well when they want to spite the mother. So the door swings both ways and I don't think it's worth arguing as to who does it more than the other. The fact that it's ever done is problemmatic to me, regardless of who is doing it.

Parents should share in the care of the children and the financial responsibility. I agree.

Some women use their wombs to assist their financial future by having a baby by a man with a high income. A good friend of mine, who played NFL football, said women would actually put pin holds into the condoms in order to get pregnant.

This is sad, but true. It's also sad that some of these men don't learn from other's mistakes or even their own past mistakes and continue to take these types of risks. It's not rocket science. So if someone is looked at to place blame on for this, then who do you think should take responsiblility for their own behavior? I think the answer is obvious...everyone involved.

"Actually, I think there should be requirements to make it harder to get married. Classes such as conflict resolution, parenting, financial planning, etc. should be mandatory.We tend to pick our professions, colleges, etc. with logic but fail to do the same with a potential life "

>>This is a wise proposal ; however the majority of black children born today are born to singlefemales. Therefore many of these individuals in questions had not committed to one another (formally) ..marriage. So these individuals are not seeking a divorce in addition to the whole custody deal. Yes, people should pick both their partner and bed partner more "carefully. Frankly, child support isn't being enforced as it should...in other words, it'snot having a bigger enoguth affect on the lives of the "primary victims men." Why would I make this claim...because to many are willing to father children without considering the consequences.....most are not being hit in the pocket enough.

"More and more men are taking on caregivers roles. I hate to see the animosity between parents when it comes to children. Mediation is the key but how can mediation work if one person (usually the woman) holds all the cards and is unwilling to bend? And, how much money is too much money? Is it fair to make a man live on the poverty level if he is an active participant in his children's lives...."

>>Yes it's good to know that more men are taking on caregivers roles. Mediation works because a third party one who usually has the child's interest "as the primary goal." He or she coaches and directs the adults involved. If there are questions about fairness... for example the mother will not allowed the father to see his child these things can be ironed out and / or presented at court. I actually had an interview for a position like this one two weeks ago. Children should be provide for..that is there basic needs should be at least met. I believe the support should be based on the parent's salaries (with consideration given to certain expenses). This should be the case in my opinion whether the father or mother is actively involved with the child or not. As far as men having to live on the powverty level I am not sure what the alternative should be...if he doesn't provide his share then it falls back onto the mother...whether she is a 6 figure (earning) sistah or a welfare recp. he should provide his share. If the mother is struggling and receiving some tyupe of government assistance...guess what she is probably living on the powverty line with the children.

f"inancially taking care of his children adequately? What if he wasn't the one who initiated the divorce? Parents should share in the care of the children and the financial responsibility."

What difference does it make if he initatied the divorce or not? We really need to get away from fault divorces the children still have to be provided for. Why is there an assumption that the primary caretaker (mostly the mother here) isn't sharing in the care of the children and the financial responsibility?

In the state of Georgia, the child support guidelines are a percentage of the non-custodial parent's income. They do not take into account the income of the custodial parent. Most of the state's have income shares guidelines which take into account both incomes. However, several of those states have percentage models disguised as income shares.

>>Unless there is joint custody they take the income of the custodial parent into consideration? If I earn 75,ooo a year and anothe lady earns 30,000 should my children receive a different payment than the lady's child who is earning 30,000?

"Some women use their wombs to assist their financial future by having a baby by a man with a high income. A good friend of mine, who played NFL football, said women would actually put pin holds into the condoms in order to get pregnant."

>>This is true; however, this is not representatives of the thousands of women who do not receive the required or adequate amount of child support in this country. The majority of women will not have their chidlren by a NFL player. I have wokred on the other end and what I have experienced are situations in which low income- working poor, or other black women are not receive the support they need for their children.

Yes, women with children are less likely to marry because men have a greater pool of partners to choose from and it worsens with age. I would think that would be a good reason for women to hang on to "good" men.

>> I'm not quite sure aobut this statement

what boggles my mind is that black women in todays time have more opportunities then black men do...look at the daily news...do you see more black women or black men as news reporters?...more black women are in college then black men and there is no comparison in federal assistance between the two sexes...none at all...custody laws favor the woman in all states in this country and treat men like dirt...what does the black man have that the black woman doesn't?

in my opinion and i am talking about rights...the answer to this question is nothing...i pose another question...what do white men have that black men don't?

this list would be too long to name and in doing so i might get mad and have this ruin my day...like i said earlier, i'm not puting womens rights down, but LOGIC not EMOTION dictates that the greater evil must be conquered before the greatest relief is felt...the greater evil has been and still is racism not sexism...i'm not here to try and convice someone to change their thought process...i just don't like seeing people fall for the oke-doke...united we stand, divided we fall...will women that have felt the pain from men continue to let this pain blind them to the big picture?...the big picture being black folks taking back what was taken from them...i know my wordz will be taken out of context...but i am glad just to be here to say them :)
one love
khasm


“the slaying of Mom raises a bigger question, and a more serious concern. Her killing comes several months after Tyisha Miller, another African-American woman, was killed by Riverside police officers. This brought to five the total of African-American women shot under questionable circumstances by police officers in Los Angeles and Riverside in the past three years.”

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/5.11/990525-black-women.html


“Few could hardly have been surprised when nearly half of all black men in a recent survey said that they believed they were racially profiled by police. It is practically an article of faith among young, black males that they are more likely than whites to be stopped, frisked, spread-eagled, and arrested by the police, often on the flimsiest of charges. The issue of racial profiling of young black men has been one of the biggest items on the media and public's racial radar scope in the past couple of years. It has caused more angry tongues to wag, more fingers to point at police, and more politicians and public officials from President Bush to Attorney General John Ashcroft to wring their hands and swear they'll do something about the practice.”

But none of this is really news. What was news, but glossed over, was that one out of four black women also complained in the survey that they are profiled by police. In the eyes of at least some black women, if color trumps
gender, and cops see and treat them as thugs and misfits, there's a tragic reason why.


“Much of the media has burned into the public mind the stereotypes of black men as violent, crime-prone, and sexual menaces. They incessantly repeat the stats that one out of three young black men are in prison, on parole, or probation. But this obscures the reality that poor black women are also victimized by racial and gender stereotypes, criminal violence, and toss-away-the-key punitive laws. There are troubling causes and consequences of that victimization.”

“This
ignited a national furor, and tossed the ugly light on the mounting numbers of women, especially black women, arrested for illegal drug use. Nearly half of women behind bars are there for drug-related offenses. And studies show
that, unlike men, they are more likely to stay behind bars longer for these offenses.

Dangerous women: The state execution of Wanda Jean Allen in Oklahoma in February, police slayings of black women in Los Angeles, Riverside, California, and Chicago, a sharp upswing in violent crimes by women, and Hollywood films that show black women as swaggering, trash talking, gun-toting, vengeful Thelma and Louise types, have escalated public fears that black women are societal threats. This has made many prosecutors and judges even more willing, even eager, to slap black women with harsher sentences for crimes. One in four women are now imprisoned for violent crimes, and half of them are black.”

http://www.thehutchinsonreport.com/070201feature.html


Funny how none of these cases of police brutality against black women have popped up in the media and were completely ignored by the black community.



”Skyrocketing imprisonment: The draconian cuts by many states in welfare benefits as well as tougher eligibility requirements have shoved many black women into economic destitution, or to the streets. Racially discriminatory drug sentencing laws, biased judges and juries, media sensationalized female violence, the get tough public mood on crime and drugs, and the feminization of poverty have tripled the number of women incarcerated since the mid-1980s. Black women have swelled these numbers. They are eight times likelier to be
jailed than white women. Three out of one hundred black women are now in prison, on probation or parole. For the first time in American history black women in some states are being imprisoned at nearly the same rate as white men. And they are being jailed at even younger ages than ever. An American Bar Association study in April found that teen girls account for more than
one-quarter of the juvenile arrests, are committing more violent crimes, and are slapped back into detention centers after release faster than boys. Many of these delinquent teen girls will pack America's prisons as women. A higher percentage of these women will be black.

Many black women now think that being a woman means little or nothing to police, and that they will be treated just as harshly as black men. That's because much of the public is convinced that crime and violence no longer
comes mainly with a young black or Latino face, but with a black female face too.”

http://www.thehutchinsonreport.com/070201feature.html

Of course black men are CURRENTLY imprisoned at a higher rate than black women, but I also read somewhere that black women have had the fastest growing incarceration rate. In fact Black women's incarceration rates increased over 700% in the same time frame that black men's increased 150%. Yet we hear nothing from the black community about black women being the fastest groing number of people locked up and put in jail.the majority are so focused on black men that black women are being overlooked. If we keep allowing this to get overlooked, black women will be in prison at seven times the rate of black men. I believe we have to handle both the problems that black men and black women face at the same time.



"Though Black women are 7% of the U.S. population, they are 27% of the rape and sexual assault victims. Black women are raped at a higher rate than White women. For every one White woman that reports her rape at least 5 White women do not report their rapes. And yet for every one African American woman that reports her rape at least 15 African American women do not report their rapes. Black women are less likely to report a crime of domestic violence or sexual assault; are less likely to have their cases come to trial; and are less likely to have their cases result in conviction than White women. Black girls between the ages of 9-12 are more frequently the victims of child sexual abuse than White girls."

www.daveyd.com/newshiphopspeaks.html

"Black women are far more likely to be raped, assaulted, and murdered than non-black women. They are far less likely to have the media treat crimes against them as seriously as crimes against white women. "

"Image assault. The image of the sexually immoral and physically aggressive black woman puts black women at risk in law and public policy. In many cases police, prosecutors, and the courts ignore or lightly punish rape, sexual abuse, and assaults against black women."


www.pacificnews.org/jinn/...women.html


When the jury does find the assailant of an African American woman guilty of rape, her race continues to play a role in the proceedings. A study of actual trial outcomes indicates that, in combination with defendant race, victim race affects the seriousness of the defendant’s charge and the severity, location, and length of his sentence. Where a black man was convicted of raping a white woman, he was more likely to be charged with a felony, more likely to receive a jail term, more likely to serve his time in a state penitentiary than in a local facility, and received a longer sentence on average than defendants in cases with a different defendant-victim racial dyad.

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/victimraceandrape.html


peace :spin:

YOu make some very good points, with regard to statistics. And black women are definately the least protected in this society. This is the legacy of white male superiority. However, short of recruiting a critical mass of black men to turn tide around. Black women need to Organize and Galvanize around these same injustices, you so eloquently mention in this thread. With all the black women going to church every sunday, not including Gospel rehearseal. why are not more of our women raising this issue in church. Why are our women being so docile by letting the preacher take their money with out saving their bodies from this kind of madness.

I'm gonna say something that will make a lot of sistahs angry, but so be it. The problem with our women being so divided is that too many of you, are very catty. You compete with each other over foolishness instead of fighting the forces that oppress you. Sorry If I sound harsh. But y'all need to get rid of the preacher/pimps, and stop trying to out do each other by out dressing one another or going after another woman's man

Peace, I say this in all love“the slaying of Mom raises a bigger question, and a more serious concern. Her killing comes several months after Tyisha Miller, another African-American woman, was killed by Riverside police officers. This brought to five the total of African-American women shot under questionable circumstances by police officers in Los Angeles and Riverside in the past three years.”

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/5.11/990525-black-women.html


“Few could hardly have been surprised when nearly half of all black men in a recent survey said that they believed they were racially profiled by police. It is practically an article of faith among young, black males that they are more likely than whites to be stopped, frisked, spread-eagled, and arrested by the police, often on the flimsiest of charges. The issue of racial profiling of young black men has been one of the biggest items on the media and public's racial radar scope in the past couple of years. It has caused more angry tongues to wag, more fingers to point at police, and more politicians and public officials from President Bush to Attorney General John Ashcroft to wring their hands and swear they'll do something about the practice.”

But none of this is really news. What was news, but glossed over, was that one out of four black women also complained in the survey that they are profiled by police. In the eyes of at least some black women, if color trumps
gender, and cops see and treat them as thugs and misfits, there's a tragic reason why.


“Much of the media has burned into the public mind the stereotypes of black men as violent, crime-prone, and sexual menaces. They incessantly repeat the stats that one out of three young black men are in prison, on parole, or probation. But this obscures the reality that poor black women are also victimized by racial and gender stereotypes, criminal violence, and toss-away-the-key punitive laws. There are troubling causes and consequences of that victimization.”

“This
ignited a national furor, and tossed the ugly light on the mounting numbers of women, especially black women, arrested for illegal drug use. Nearly half of women behind bars are there for drug-related offenses. And studies show
that, unlike men, they are more likely to stay behind bars longer for these offenses.

Dangerous women: The state execution of Wanda Jean Allen in Oklahoma in February, police slayings of black women in Los Angeles, Riverside, California, and Chicago, a sharp upswing in violent crimes by women, and Hollywood films that show black women as swaggering, trash talking, gun-toting, vengeful Thelma and Louise types, have escalated public fears that black women are societal threats. This has made many prosecutors and judges even more willing, even eager, to slap black women with harsher sentences for crimes. One in four women are now imprisoned for violent crimes, and half of them are black.”

http://www.thehutchinsonreport.com/070201feature.html


Funny how none of these cases of police brutality against black women have popped up in the media and were completely ignored by the black community.



”Skyrocketing imprisonment: The draconian cuts by many states in welfare benefits as well as tougher eligibility requirements have shoved many black women into economic destitution, or to the streets. Racially discriminatory drug sentencing laws, biased judges and juries, media sensationalized female violence, the get tough public mood on crime and drugs, and the feminization of poverty have tripled the number of women incarcerated since the mid-1980s. Black women have swelled these numbers. They are eight times likelier to be
jailed than white women. Three out of one hundred black women are now in prison, on probation or parole. For the first time in American history black women in some states are being imprisoned at nearly the same rate as white men. And they are being jailed at even younger ages than ever. An American Bar Association study in April found that teen girls account for more than
one-quarter of the juvenile arrests, are committing more violent crimes, and are slapped back into detention centers after release faster than boys. Many of these delinquent teen girls will pack America's prisons as women. A higher percentage of these women will be black.

Many black women now think that being a woman means little or nothing to police, and that they will be treated just as harshly as black men. That's because much of the public is convinced that crime and violence no longer
comes mainly with a young black or Latino face, but with a black female face too.”

http://www.thehutchinsonreport.com/070201feature.html

Of course black men are CURRENTLY imprisoned at a higher rate than black women, but I also read somewhere that black women have had the fastest growing incarceration rate. In fact Black women's incarceration rates increased over 700% in the same time frame that black men's increased 150%. Yet we hear nothing from the black community about black women being the fastest groing number of people locked up and put in jail.the majority are so focused on black men that black women are being overlooked. If we keep allowing this to get overlooked, black women will be in prison at seven times the rate of black men. I believe we have to handle both the problems that black men and black women face at the same time.



"Though Black women are 7% of the U.S. population, they are 27% of the rape and sexual assault victims. Black women are raped at a higher rate than White women. For every one White woman that reports her rape at least 5 White women do not report their rapes. And yet for every one African American woman that reports her rape at least 15 African American women do not report their rapes. Black women are less likely to report a crime of domestic violence or sexual assault; are less likely to have their cases come to trial; and are less likely to have their cases result in conviction than White women. Black girls between the ages of 9-12 are more frequently the victims of child sexual abuse than White girls."

www.daveyd.com/newshiphopspeaks.html

"Black women are far more likely to be raped, assaulted, and murdered than non-black women. They are far less likely to have the media treat crimes against them as seriously as crimes against white women. "

"Image assault. The image of the sexually immoral and physically aggressive black woman puts black women at risk in law and public policy. In many cases police, prosecutors, and the courts ignore or lightly punish rape, sexual abuse, and assaults against black women."


www.pacificnews.org/jinn/...women.html


peace
[B]

YOu make some very good points, with regard to statistics. And black women are definately the least protected in this society. This is the legacy of white male superiority. However, short of recruiting a critical mass of black men to turn tide around. Black women need to Organize and Galvanize around these same injustices, you so eloquently mention in this thread. With all the black women going to church every sunday, not including Gospel rehearseal. why are not more of our women raising this issue in church. Why are our women being so docile by letting the preacher take their money with out saving their bodies from this kind of madness.

I'm gonna say something that will make a lot of sistahs angry, but so be it. The problem with our women being so divided is that too many of you, are very catty. You compete with each other over foolishness instead of fighting the forces that oppress you. Sorry If I sound harsh. But y'all need to get rid of the preacher/pimps, and stop trying to out do each other by out dressing one another or going after another woman's man

Peace, I say this in all love
[B]
One more thing I forgot to add, the buying power of black women today is greater than it is for black men. If black women started taking their money out of white banks, and stopped spending money with people who don't respect them, then I gaurantee you the courts, corporate america et al, would stop pullin the s#@* their doing to our people. Here we have a woman like Oprah in the position to make a change for black women, but she's not stepping up to the plate. BLack men have trouble saving themselves. Perhaps only black women can save themselves

One more thing I forgot to add, the buying power of black women today is greater than it is for black men. If black women started taking their money out of white banks, and stopped spending money with people who don't respect them, then I gaurantee you the courts, corporate america et al, would stop pullin the s#@* their doing to our people. Here we have a woman like Oprah in the position to make a change for black women, but she's not stepping up to the plate. BLack men have trouble saving themselves. Perhaps only black women can save themselves


The buying power for black women is greater then it is for black men.Good point, but I think that black women and black men have to put our heads together to save our collective @sses.Black men were not just exposed to the wille lynch syndrome, neither were just black women.Black women are catty and black men have enormous egos, we all have our faults.But if we ever want to get out of this rut...we have to climb together...
one love
khasm

You have a good point, however my point was that mentioning statistics about what is done to black women is not getting black women anywhere, black women are in a better position to make changes that affect them and only them. But they do not do it. Their are issues that only black women can address, this is a time honored tradition in africa. This was erased with the ending of the rights of passage for boys and girls. Don't look for black men to save black women, if black women doThe buying power for black women is greater then it is for black men.Good point, but I think that black women and black men have to put our heads together to save our collective @sses.Black men were not just exposed to the wille lynch syndrome, neither were just black women.Black women are catty and black men have enormous egos, we all have our faults.But if we ever want to get out of this rut...we have to climb together...
one love
khasm
[B]Don't look for help from others if you do not help your self. That is the point. Don't try to skirt this issue sista

That was a great post Lktpolit!

Sekhemu & Khasm 13
Your comments are clear examples of the double talk used or employed by "pro-black" males which has resu,lted or should I say has assisted in the prevention of the development of a black women's center movement. A movement that is needed in order to counter.two ancient myths: Black men have it harder than black women and Black men sexism doesn't give me privileges. The end result is the real belief that if only black men ever given the opportunity to o be "real men" than our problems would cease.

Violence aganist black women is largely a female problem the best way to deal with the problem is to unite as women howcer we are to catty to do so. The increase in the inprisonnment of black women is a black female problem not a male problem. However, the current war on the black male is a community problem??

YOu make some very good points, with regard to statistics. And black women are definately the least protected in this society. This is the legacy of white male superiority. However, short of recruiting a critical mass of black men to turn tide around. Black women need to Organize and Galvanize around these same injustices, you so eloquently mention in this thread. With all the black women going to church every sunday, not including Gospel rehearseal. why are not more of our women raising this issue in church. Why are our women being so docile by letting the preacher take their money with out saving their bodies from this kind of madness.

I'm gonna say something that will make a lot of sistahs angry, but so be it. The problem with our women being so divided is that too many of you, are very catty. You compete with each other over foolishness instead of fighting the forces that oppress you. Sorry If I sound harsh. But y'all need to get rid of the preacher/pimps, and stop trying to out do each other by out dressing one another or going after another woman's man

Peace, I say this in all love
[B]


“However, short of recruiting a critical mass of black men to turn tide around. Black women need to Organize and Galvanize around these same injustices, you so eloquently mention in this thread.”

Sekhemu, I agree with you somewhat in that the only people who can save black women are ourselves. But I disagree with you on the buying power. Black men still make more money than black women eventhough black women are more likely to work. I believe there are certain issues that black men just can’t help black women with being that they will never fully understand what we as black women go through or what’s needed to uplift black women. Black men and black women have different experiences in America. . I know MANY of you aren’t going to agree with me on this, but Black women know best what’s needed when it comes to other black females which is why I believe in political separation. The same goes for black men, a black man better understands what’s needed to help black men and boys being that they themselves are black men. . I believe there needs to be some form of unity between black men and black women as well as some form of political separation. Keep in mind that this is only on a political level, not on a personal level.
The way i see it, black women and black men(who have ALREADY done this) should focus more on problems concerning their own specific gender, while at the same time not turning their backs on issues concerning the opposite gender of their own race.black men have always focused on their issues first and foremost, yet the majority of black women haven’t yet gotten the message that they are in this alone and that prioritizing black mens issues before their own will get them nowhere. Many black women have been brainwashed into thinking that the only way our freedom as black women will come is though the upliftment of black men and the restoration of black masculinity. Many have also been tricked into believing that black men actually have it harder than them. Therefore many black women have historically put their issues on the back burner and prioritized issues concerning black men. So, black men are not the only ones to blame for the sexism within our community because many women helped reinforce the patriarchy that permeates our community.

I believe it's very possible to work both as a group AND seperately at the same time. I feel as though it's our job to take up for one another when we're being wronged by this oppressive system due to the fact that what affects one black person affects us all rather it affects us in a different way due to our gender or not, it still affects how we're treated and perceived in america.


Both sexism and racism perpetuate one another to affect both black men and black women in different ways. We shouldn't completely divorce ourselves from all notions of unity because they are what aid in our survival as a race. Whatever affects a black man affects me as a black woman in some way or another. Whatever affects me as black woman affects a black man in a different way rather it's socially, politically, or economically. How can i as a black woman completely divorce myself from being concerned with black mens issues knowing that my future son rather he is "full black" or "biracial"will have to go through the same things that any other black man has to go through due to the fact that he will be seen as just another "*****" in the eyes of america. That black man that was murdered at the hands of police brutality could have just as easily been my father or my little brother.

Whites (both men and women) have managed to exist both seperately and as one. This is the way i see it. when it comes to black people or any other people of color, the majority of whites will unify in order to remain in control. Eventhough many white women and men choose to focus specifically on issues concerning their gender, believe me the majority of them will find a way to unite when it comes to maintaining dominance over other racial groups in america.


“With all the black women going to church every sunday, not including Gospel rehearseal. why are not more of our women raising this issue in church. Why are our women being so docile by letting the preacher take their money with out saving their bodies from this kind of madness.”

Many black women have a hard time bringing their own problems up in church concerning rape and spousal abuse. Another problem is that the majority of black women are not gender conscious enough to know that they even have a problem not just concerning spousal abuse but concerning the way in which their gender affects their lives as black women. I know I’m generalizing but the majority of us have brought into sexist brainwashing.



”I'm gonna say something that will make a lot of sistahs angry, but so be it. The problem with our women being so divided is that too many of you, are very catty. You compete with each other over foolishness instead of fighting the forces that oppress you. Sorry If I sound harsh. But y'all need to get rid of the preacher/pimps, and stop trying to out do each other by out dressing one another or going after another woman's man”


you know what? You may have a point. A lot of women ARE catty, but I don’t think cattiness is the only thing stopping black women from saving themselves. As I said earlier, a lot of black women have brought into the notion that their issues are less important than issues concerning black men. And that their gender in no way affects how they’re treated within this society. Many black women don’t even see police brutality or incarceration as a problem that affects them because they have brought into the notion that this is a problem that affects only black men. This mentality is understandable considering the fact that black women are constantly told they do not have to suffer the same things that black men go through everyday.

That was a great post Lktpolit!


Your comments are clear examples of the double talk used or employed by "pro-black" males which has resu,lted or should I say has assisted in the prevention of the development of a black women's center movement. A movement that is needed in order to counter.two ancient myths: Black men have it harder than black women and Black men sexism doesn't give me privileges. The end result is the real belief that if only black men ever given the opportunity to o be "real men" than our problems would cease.

Violence aganist black women is largely a female problem the best way to deal with the problem is to unite as women howcer we are to catty to do so. The increase in the inprisonnment of black women is a black female problem not a male problem. However, the current war on the black male is a community problem??
:toast:

so true sadies brown, it has always been this way. which is part of the reason why political separation on some level is needed. we as black women can not continue to put ourselves in a subservient position trying to get other people to understand or show compassion for our concerns, we have handle this problem on our own.action has to be taken. Don't get me wrong, It's always good to educate people on your experiences because some people just innocently buy into male supremacy without even knowing it. when you have lived with it for so long, you are like a fish to water. it's around you so much that you unconsciously obsorb it.


we have blacks(both men and women) who have been socialized to just ignore problems concerning women and see problems concerning men as more important. it all comes along with male supremacy.

That was a great post Lktpolit!

Sekhemu & Khasm 13
Your comments are clear examples of the double talk used or employed by "pro-black" males which has resu,lted or should I say has assisted in the prevention of the development of a black women's center movement. A movement that is needed in order to counter.two ancient myths: Black men have it harder than black women and Black men sexism doesn't give me privileges. The end result is the real belief that if only black men ever given the opportunity to o be "real men" than our problems would cease.

Violence aganist black women is largely a female problem the best way to deal with the problem is to unite as women howcer we are to catty to do so. The increase in the inprisonnment of black women is a black female problem not a male problem. However, the current war on the black male is a community problem??

I really don't know how you can get double talk from my words when I say that racism plays the bigger threat.Anywayz...It is hard for me not to notice that you seem very anti-men in all 18 of your post...I've taken a chance to look at some of them...would I be wrong to call you a man hater? Even if those stats are correct that lkt posted, the overwhelming amount of black men in prisions far overshadows that of black women...I really don't see what point is trying to be made.This is the last thing i'm going to say on this thread because this discourse is very very very tiring. As long as black people cannot see themselves as people first, we will continue to get beatdown by this snake filled country. I'm dun here, I don't like being around hate.I wonder how many collective vibrators we have in this thread...
one love
khasm

You asked what does the black man have that the Black woman doesn't? Then other preceded to tell or show you. My sense of your response to the show and tell was "we're all black." Yes, we are all black we all face racism but because of gender we face it differently. How can we fight racism if we can't understand this fact?

I do not agree with separation mostly because we have a responsibility to one another. But how can I work with folks who believes that any suggest or any claim that gender makes a difference is secondary to the larger picture....when in fact it is part of the picture?

I am not sure if your calling me a man hater or anti-male is right or wrong....since you are doing the calling you have the power too decide. I won't even suggest that you prove it although I am tempted to do so. I have to tell you, though it's not the first or the last time I've been called such. My position is not for the fade at heart.

:nono: ">>>I wonder how many collective vibrators we have in this thread..."

I really don't know how you can get double talk from my words when I say that racism plays the bigger threat.Anywayz...It is hard for me not to notice that you seem very anti-men in all 18 of your post...I've taken a chance to look at some of them...would I be wrong to call you a man hater? Even if those stats are correct that lkt posted, the overwhelming amount of black men in prisions far overshadows that of black women...I really don't see what point is trying to be made.This is the last thing i'm going to say on this thread because this discourse is very very very tiring. As long as black people cannot see themselves as people first, we will continue to get beatdown by this snake filled country. I'm dun here, I don't like being around hate.I wonder how many collective vibrators we have in this thread...
one love
khasm

Double talk? how so, particuliarly in light of the fact you have contradicted yourself by the last paragraph in your reply!

Double talk? how so, particuliarly in light of the fact you have contradicted yourself by the last paragraph in your reply!

I have to agree with you sadie. Khasm, interesting choice in a name... obviously has a problem with men.

:toast:

so true sadies brown, it has always been this way. which is part of the reason why political separation on some level is needed. we as black women can not continue to put ourselves in a subservient position trying to get other people to understand or show compassion for our concerns, we have handle this problem on our own.action has to be taken. Don't get me wrong, It's always good to educate people on your experiences because some people just innocently buy into male supremacy without even knowing it. when you have lived with it for so long, you are like a fish to water. it's around you so much that you unconsciously obsorb it.


we have blacks(both men and women) who have been socialized to just ignore problems concerning women and see problems concerning men as more important. it all comes along with male supremacy.

Male supremacy? You need to be more precise in that comment. It's white male supremacy. There may be some black men who play a dominant role with respect to relationships, and that is neither here nor there, but white male supremacy in an institution that has subjugate the black man and woman for the last 500 years, so keep it in the proper context. Blackmanhood is not the enemy of the black woman.

I have to agree with you sadie. Khasm, interesting choice in a name... obviously has a problem with men.

Dude...what are you talking about...Firstly, I am a black man in corporate america who fully understands the forces that try to undermine black unity.Secondly, that last post was directed at sadie, notice you have more then 18 posts.This is wild, now I have people telling me that I have a problem with myself...lol...This thread is truely acursed.
one love
khasm

One last thing brother Sekhemu...
If you go back, it was sadie that acussed us BOTH
of double talk...please take heed dun
because I refuse to fight my brother for anyone...
one love
khasm

One last thing brother Sekhemu...
If you go back, it was sadie that acussed us BOTH
of double talk...please take heed dun
because I refuse to fight my brother for anyone...
one love
khasm
I stand corrected brotha. Peace!

no problem dun...

Male supremacy? You need to be more precise in that comment. It's white male supremacy. There may be some black men who play a dominant role with respect to relationships, and that is neither here nor there, but white male supremacy in an institution that has subjugate the black man and woman for the last 500 years, so keep it in the proper context. Blackmanhood is not the enemy of the black woman.

yes, white men have the MOST power in this society and have oppressed both black men and black women on the basis of BOTH racism and sexism as they are still doing at this very moment moment..... and black men have had a hand in the oppression of black women on the basis of sexism due to having male priviledge and exercizing their male priviledge against black women. this is very well documented throughout history and can't be denied....


also, if you want to know more about it, a good book to read on what i'm saying is a book called "Ain't I a woman" by Bell hooks. there is also a book by michelle wallace called black Macho and the Myth of the Superwoman...there are various other books that pertain to this as well.



I just thought about this one(as you can probably tell, because it may not make much sense)LOL........... but I will go even farther and say that there are black WOMEN as well who hve helped oppress other black women due to the fact that they THEMSELVES have been brainwashed into embracing a sexist and oppressive belief system that prioritizes men over women. Eventhough this system in NO way benefits them as black women, these women have put this very belief system into practice against other black women due to the fact that they have GIVEN an ALREADY powerful and dominant belief system even MORE power and influence over the lives of other black women. although.....it's imposible for those at the bottom to oppress those at the top, but it is very possible for people at the bottom to oppress those on their "level"(for lack of a better word) and beneath them by adopting a dominant and oppressive belief system that is detrimental to others on their own level....i guess it depends on how you define power.


"Blackmanhood is not the enemy of the black woman"


Although, i think there are very few men who DON'T embrace a sexist belief system in some form or another(be they black or white), I don't and never have seen black men as an enemy, not even the ones who hold on to sexist beliefs..In fact, i hadn't thought of it in that light(as an enemy) until you mentioned it.....i feel that both sexism and racism are a sickness that has to be learned...it's up to women who are facing it to attack and defeat NOT the individual...but the oppressive MENTALITY behind the individual that exists within this culture as well as others. the belief system is the enemy, not the human being. there are so many subliminal, as well as blatant messages circulating around that tell men they are superior to women(especially to BLACK women), that the majority of them can't help but embrace that belief system to some extent.

school has started back.... just letting you know, in case it takes me a couple days to respond back

i know a lot of people aren't going to agree with me but, oh well....you can't please everyone.

To heal completely requires that the entire disease be treated, not just a portion of it. To deny that problems exist between Black men and Black women is denying reality. To recognize that many Black women feel oppression of a different sort, is the first step to healing. Black men may not understand how these women might feel but knowing that she feels this way should be enough for him to want to make things better.

This recognition doesn't mean that we can't also focus on other issues that plague the Black community at the same time. Race and gender oppression can be fought against simultaneously. Some people argue that race issues are more important than gender issues. This is partly why we continue to experience these types of problems. Divide and conquer, as the saying goes, will keep Black people down as long as we see race and gender as two separate issues and not a single issue. If Black women were able to oppress Black men, then what will she gain? Nothing. The opposite holds true as well, in my opinion. The Black man wants respect and so does the Black woman. Can we start giving each other mutual respect by first acknowledging that we need to build better relationships with each other?

Peace :spinstar:

To heal completely requires that the entire disease be treated, not just a portion of it. To deny that problems exist between Black men and Black women is denying reality. To recognize that many Black women feel oppression of a different sort, is the first step to healing. Black men may not understand how these women might feel but knowing that she feels this way should be enough for him to want to make things better.

This recognition doesn't mean that we can't also focus on other issues that plague the Black community at the same time. Race and gender oppression can be fought against simultaneously. Some people argue that race issues are more important than gender issues. This is partly why we continue to experience these types of problems. Divide and conquer, as the saying goes, will keep Black people down as long as we see race and gender as two separate issues and not a single issue. If Black women were able to oppress Black men, then what will she gain? Nothing. The opposite holds true as well, in my opinion. The Black man wants respect and so does the Black woman. Can we start giving each other mutual respect by first acknowledging that we need to build better relationships with each other?

Peace :spinstar:
Before we start acknowledging anything, first we need to define who the "we" in "us are.

Your point is noted, Brother Sekhemu. My reference to "we" means, Blacks including African Americans. That is the group being discussed in this thread. Who would you suggest the "we" be?

Peace. :spinstar:

Your point is noted, Brother Sekhemu. My reference to "we" means, Blacks including African Americans. That is the group being discussed in this thread. Who would you suggest the "we" be?

Peace. :spinstar:
We meaning, like minded black people. Cause as you know, every brotha ain't a brotha and every sistah ain't a sistah.

Peace and health

:love: The Black Woman


The Black woman is the sacred grounds of Gods creation
She has been defamed by the representation who comes
In the form of some women.
The black women is the spirit not
the flesh all things of sacred treasures
must represent her self as one.
Follow not the flock but the sheep.
The image shall surely fade away.
The black woman is the treasure.

Seek not any representations other
than the creations of thy God.
Live not the laws of the land.
But the Queen who builds foundations for her King.
If you lye down with dogs you shall surely get flees.

The image of a warrior Queen is the blessings from
The Almighty God.
Yes we are the image that we represent,
but loyalty to image must be kept.
Embrace the hands with your sister warriors
To reclaim your inheritance which was given by God.
Woman who lives within a prison,
Which no man understands.
[B]
Victim within self as victimize by the world.
She pleads for
escape which the battle is within,
as she prays for her
sanity each and every day.
Why do you linger like a cancer?
Hidden within as those who only see the
maze from the outside. But not within
Oh how the struggles rips me apart
Screaming for freedom as the walls close in.

Point well stated, Brother Sekhemu. . .and I agree, "we" doesn't apply to ALL Black people. But I would like to revisit something that was stated earlier and that is, "the Blackmanhood is not the enemy of the Black woman." When I first read that, I quickly agreed, but then I read it again and realized that I may have been too hasty in my judgment. Instead of writing that as "The Black man is not the enemy . . ." the word "Blackmanhood" was used. What exactly does that mean and does it define the nature of Black men?

Sister Ashanta . . . your poetic representation of the Black woman was eloquent but can you help me in understanding what you wrote by interpreting your piece for me?

Peace :spinstar:

Point well stated, Brother Sekhemu. . .and I agree, "we" doesn't apply to ALL Black people. But I would like to revisit something that was stated earlier and that is, "the Blackmanhood is not the enemy of the Black woman." When I first read that, I quickly agreed, but then I read it again and realized that I may have been too hasty in my judgment. Instead of writing that as "The Black man is not the enemy . . ." the word "Blackmanhood" was used. What exactly does that mean and does it define the nature of Black men?

Sister Ashanta . . . your poetic representation of the Black woman was eloquent but can you help me in understanding what you wrote by interpreting your piece for me?

Peace :spinstar:

We as black women must represent each other. We are our sisters keeper.
Some men judge all women the same. Sisterhood no longer stands for unity. Many try to grand stand. Keeping it real is very important. We can ware the symbol of sisterhood but we do not wear the honor of a Queen. Many brothers feel that the real warriors black women no longer lives. Many times we don't listen when brothers speak. Jealousy and envy plays a great part in the name of sisterhood. Women must understand that the honor of black women must stand as one. Sisters close there minds to truth. No man is an island which we must
come together as family and support one another. A house divided shall never stand, and together we stand divided we will fall.


The black women must carry herselve as such, many of us are followers and not leaders
The virtue of a black women must always be worn as such. Many sisters think that a pretty face will be there source of deliverance, as life there are many pretty faces that stands on the corners. A man will lay down with a dog, but a women with morals he will always take home to meet his mother..

One thing females don't realize a man has three types of women,
one he loves, one he respects, and one he dogs.
Many females close there eyes to reality all for a moment of fame.
The failure to apply will be the destruction of all black women.
Many sisters feel if it dose not effect me who gives a dam.
Being a black woman I hold my head in shame, not because
I have lost values in what it takes to be a real women, but to
see how some of my sisters carry there selves with no respect,

Some will be save and some will be lost
Miss information Is the source of our people.
The black women must first understand the meaning
of a women. I am not bashing all of my sisters
because I truly believe many have not been taught.
Loyality, Respect, Honor, Wisdom , Truth.
Many sisters voices speak out loud, but when another
sister sings the same song. She turns her head like
she has said something wrong.

Understanding the concept of black men is not hard.
He is crying out for sisters to keep it real.
Understanding what a black man represents,
and not a boy representing his self as a man.
Sisters and brothers look through the same
glass windows, respect your self.
Every thing black dose not represent
the ancestors are brothers and sisters.


Mis understanding the meaning of a black
man will only confuse you, when you never
had the gift to apply.

A black man comes from a black woman.
Believe mama has taught him the do's and don't
Materials is a form of meeting
when it gets old he moves on.
Being a strong black man looks
to the future of tomorrow,


The women has the power of suggestions
to say yes are no.
Many sisters cry aloud when the man
leaves her with child, listen as the rappers
sing, you can't make a whore a house wife.
Yes I must admit we have fallen in our way.
We had the chose to say yes are no.

It is not hard to understand where
a brother is coming from put ego
a side and the truth will become clear.
If you keep your mind close
nothing will come in and nothing will come out.

Many sisters will scream and yell
what about the man.
But if the sister was loyal to
her self she would be without child.

So what is the black man saying to us.
Respect your self even though I am a dog.[B]

ashanta...you are the last person that i thought would group all men in one category...smh...i know i said i was dun in this thread...and i was...but my goodness...smh...i am disapointed...
one love
khasm

Sister Ashanta, you may not have meant to but it looks like you are, vilifying Black men and lumping them all in one group. Surely that wasn't your intent was it sister?

Queenie :spinstar:

I agree that in order to rise as a people we have to fight the battle together on all fronts. We cannot be lopsided and call ourselves free. I do not agree that the white feminist agenda is the way we need to go. Some may say it's not a "white" feminist agenda. It's just feminist. Yes and we are all just Americans when it suits the white man. This is what I have learned:

In her book, Terrible Honesty: Mongel Manhatten in the 1920s, Ann Douglas reveals that one of the tactics of the early feminists fighting to win voting rights for women was to promise the white man that if he gave the white woman the right to vote she would help him crush the black man's fight for his rights.

Given the history of the feminist movement is it any wonder that brothers cast a wary eye on our involvement in it? The benefits of feminism were no more meant for the black woman than "all men are created equal" was meant for the black man. It is only because of the civil rights movement that we have the benefits we ascribe to feminism.

We do not share the white woman's history so how can we share her agenda? She fights for the right to:

1. Work - Well we have alwalys worked. Who worked her fingers to the bone--who dragged herself home dog-tired after a full day of doing what the white man did not allow the white woman to do because she was "oppressed?"

2. Abortion - Well you know it's too many *****hs out there now anyway. Kill'm all!

3. No chivalry - I happen to love chivalry. I have been standing on my two brown feet for five hundred years. It's no skin off a brothahs nose to stay seated and let me continue standing.

In the halls of academia where the white feminist agenda takes shape they tell themselves that we can never be a real part of the feminist movement because we are too strong and their agenda is to unite on the bases of common victimhood. In their eyes our spiritual and physical strenth disqualifies us from being victims. They tell themselves that we can never help shape the agenda becausee our lack of education prevents us from knowing how to theorize. Yes we can describe the bruises and name calling but that's description not theory. They want theory. This may not be what they tell us but believe me this is what they tell themselves.

We need our own unique agenda based on our own unique history and the duality of our concerns as African-American women.

I agree that in order to rise as a people we have to fight the battle together on all fronts. We cannot be lopsided and call ourselves free. I do not agree that the white feminist agenda is the way we need to go. We need our own unique agenda based on our own unique history and the duality of our concerns as African-American women.

Very well stated and I very much agree with this river. There are a lot of issues that exist in our society and so many people are feeling disenfranchised because of the way they are treated. Much of this has to do with the dominant culture in America and as Black people we can't afford to take on the traits or adopt the beliefs that only serve to keep us oppressed.

We can't separate "isms" that we suffer if they deny any among us certain rights and opportunities. We must be balanced in our thinking and exhibit that thinking in the ways we approach these issues. We must think inclusive and not exclusive.

You make an excellent point and I also agree that the White feminist AGENDA including their tactics and approaches should not be the way we handle our business. Here again, to follow the ways and means of the dominant culture often doesn't reap us the same benefits that they are able to achieve. This has been proven too often to refute. But an agenda we do need that includes and addresses the issue of sexism because it's part of the culture we live in and the impact of it deprives Black women of certain rights and opportunities based on their gender.

Peace,
Queenie :spinstar:

Hey Queenie!

Yes, the issues are there and if the brothers would fight with us instead of feeling threatened they will reap the benefits too. I think it would be easier for them to perceive their own benefit in our struggle if they understand that we are not buying into the dominant culture or kissing up to the white feminist who could care less about either one of us.

One of the things black poets love to do is coin phrases and synthesize words into new words that express our meaning more precisely or more creatively. Like "bodacity" and "same difference." Can we create a word which expresses our concerns as African Americans and as women but doesn't evoke the kinds of fearful associations that the word "feminist" does? A word which does not contain its own "ism" (feminISM). A word which grows out of our struggles and our goals. We already have the word "Sistah." Yeah, the Sistah Movement! Groove with me. It's inclusive because where there is a sistah there is a brothah. It's relational becausee it defines the bond we all share and expresses how we want to be treated. And, unlike the white feminist movement, it is not elitist. Do you feel me?

peace
river

^5 sista river...you said a mouthful...
actually ^10...word
one love
khasm

What's up Khasm?

Really glad to see you here, Brothah. The Sistah Movement would not be complete without inputfrom the Brothahs. We all have concerns because we have all contributed to the wedge that divides us and we can all do something about it. We want to hear from you just like we want to be heard. If we start from this common ground I think we will all feel heard.

holla atcha girl
river

Hey Queenie!

Yes, the issues are there and if the brothers would fight with us instead of feeling threatened they will reap the benefits too. I think it would be easier for them to perceive their own benefit in our struggle if they understand that we are not buying into the dominant culture or kissing up to the white feminist who could care less about either one of us.

One of the things black poets love to do is coin phrases and synthesize words into new words that express our meaning more precisely or more creatively. Like "bodacity" and "same difference." Can we create a word which expresses our concerns as African Americans and as women but doesn't evoke the kinds of fearful associations that the word "feminist" does? A word which does not contain its own "ism" (feminISM). A word which grows out of our struggles and our goals. We already have the word "Sistah." Yeah, the Sistah Movement! Groove with me. It's inclusive because where there is a sistah there is a brothah. It's relational becausee it defines the bond we all share and expresses how we want to be treated. And, unlike the white feminist movement, it is not elitist. Do you feel me?

peace
river

Sister river, we're thinking alike...as I read your first post and started responding to it, I was thinking the exact same thing....what do we call ourselves as Black women and men who are joined in fighting against all "isms". Womanist defines a collection of Black women writers and authors who are enlightened about racism and sexism but because this word tends to be used exclusively to describe women in the liberal arts arena, I don't think that word would be appropriate for what we're discussing.

I agree that the word we use to define who we are based on our beliefs and proactive behavior should not end in "ist" or "ism", i.e., racist, feminist or racism and feminism. I also don't think it should be gender specific which could give the appearance that it is exclusive or the group's focus is only on one particular issue. But we need a name that also differeniates those among us too, don't you think? For example, those Africans that want to assimilate into someone else's culture versus those that are proud and want to sustain their identification with the cultures of our African ancestors. Just to call ourselves "Black" doesn't distinguish our differences on political, social and cultural levels. So, of the Black men and women who think like we do, how do we refer to ourselves?

Peace,
Queenie :spinstar:

You go Queenie,

You're so right. It should not be gender specific. I've been looking and I found "pamoja" which in Swahili means "together." Can you picture the Pamoja Movement?

You go Queenie,

You're so right. It should not be gender specific. I've been looking and I found "pamoja" which in Swahili means "together." Can you picture the Pamoja Movement?

Yes, I think you may be on to something Sister river! :) But let me ask you this. Do you think that the term Pan-African captures the same meaning as Pamoja? More than just what we call ourselves, but also a reflection of how we think, what we believe and how we LIVE!

Whatcha think?

Queenie :spinstar:

you didn't ask me NNQueen but i think Pamoja has a fuller richer and more inviting energy then Pan-African. Pan African begins to make one think of taking sides.."i call myself black", I am an African-American", "I don't like to label myself", etc. While Pamoja embraces our African Root and the concept of coming together fluidly, and the origin of the word leaves out no one of african heritage. A perfect reflection of our thinking and the potential for our coming together.
I like it river..It's musical, fluid..a step toward our loving ourselves and then loving each other ...
Okay NNQueen start us up...what should/can we do first?

This post interested me for a number of reasons. One being the correlation of what a feminist may find themselves dealing with in a masculine oriented environment as a Christian finds themselves confronted with in this domain where African oriented themes dominate. Being a resiliant mind I can deal with prejudice as a feminist is required to do in a setting where the cultural dynamic is very cool where being feminist seeks to connect to its source.

Another aspect to consider in this frame is something I've never seen anyone address. There is dimensionality to feminism, not every feminist is a Femi-nazi, always on the make for some issue to take offense. Some feminist are focused in their complaint and do not exhibit attitudes that detract from the strength of their arguments. You can be a Black feminist with it hardly being known, as far as what people expect of your demeanor and areas of concern. There is no one factor to feminism wherein a singular judgment or attitude is correct in reacting to the term/person.

There's been conversation on Laws and principles. That's fine, however there's something greater at the root of this and any issue concerning people's perceptions of their experience. Woman are feminist because they are aspiring to a greater sense of fulfillment as individuals. I have no problem with that hope myself. There are items in the process that give it a bad reputation however. The unleashing of bastardized versions of entertainment, e.g. Lil Kim, Madonna, Brittaney Spears, oops Janet Jackson, etc. are a consequence of the outcomes of feminism run wild. With no brakes, feminism can and has become a runway train in many respects, doing more harm than good in several areas. This is a call for males and females to maintain a dialogue that's laced with principles we all should observe in the quest to finding ways to live where we all get a sense of having a decent opportunity to get something out of life that's pleasing. But, again, to the feminist agenda abortion and other ugly gnarly issues is associated. To gain an impeccable view from others a Black feminist needs to affirm values that are crucial to principles that supercede personal interest to glorify God. If left to only seeking things that actually are demeaning to our standing as a people and human beings, feminism will always have a millstone hanging around its knock, doing more to bend your back than to liberate you to do what you want to do.

Astro......

Why do some people have problems when a Black woman identifies herself as a "feminist"?

Should a Black woman only be concerned with racism and ignore sexism?

There are some who blame Black feminists for the demise of the Black family. They think being a feminist makes a Black woman too aggressive, less subservient to her man, sexually promiscuous, morally corrupt by promoting single-motherhood and unable to raise sons.

Some people think that to be a feminist means you're a lesbian and must hate men in order to fight sexism.

During the 60s and 70s, many Black women were already race-conscious but they also became gender-conscious as well. Many of these women were becoming prominent writers and activists in their own right.

Some say that all feminists are opposed to "catering" to their husbands or partners needs. If she does and her husband also caters to her needs, what does that make her?

Some women "sell" sex: prostitution, pornography, music videos, etc. Some say that these women create a stereotype and make it bad for all women. Do you blame the women, the men who participate, both, or none.

If a man opposes the oppression of sexism, is he a "feminist"?

Can a feminist also be a Christian, a Muslim or practice any other religious dogma?

A Black woman tells of her struggle to discover who she is and calls herself a feminist.

http://www.blackculturalstudies.org/wallace/hellandback.html

This post interested me for a number of reasons. One being the correlation of what a feminist may find themselves dealing with in a masculine oriented environment as a Christian finds themselves confronted with in this domain where African oriented themes dominate. Being a resiliant mind I can deal with prejudice as a feminist is required to do in a setting where the cultural dynamic is very cool where being feminist seeks to connect to its source.

Another aspect to consider in this frame is something I've never seen anyone address. There is dimensionality to feminism, not every feminist is a Femi-nazi, always on the make for some issue to take offense. Some feminist are focused in their complaint and do not exhibit attitudes that detract from the strength of their arguments. You can be a Black feminist with it hardly being known, as far as what people expect of your demeanor and areas of concern. There is no one factor to feminism wherein a singular judgment or attitude is correct in reacting to the term/person.

There's been conversation on Laws and principles. That's fine, however there's something greater at the root of this and any issue concerning people's perceptions of their experience. Woman are feminist because they are aspiring to a greater sense of fulfillment as individuals. I have no problem with that hope myself. There are items in the process that give it a bad reputation however. The unleashing of bastardized versions of entertainment, e.g. Lil Kim, Madonna, Brittaney Spears, oops Janet Jackson, etc. are a consequence of the outcomes of feminism run wild. With no brakes, feminism can and has become a runway train in many respects, doing more harm than good in several areas. This is a call for males and females to maintain a dialogue that's laced with principles we all should observe in the quest to finding ways to live where we all get a sense of having a decent opportunity to get something out of life that's pleasing. But, again, to the feminist agenda abortion and other ugly gnarly issues is associated. To gain an impeccable view from others a Black feminist needs to affirm values that are crucial to principles that supercede personal interest to glorify God. If left to only seeking things that actually are demeaning to our standing as a people and human beings, feminism will always have a millstone hanging around its knock, doing more to bend your back than to liberate you to do what you want to do.

Astro......

Astro your words are truth and powerful. The term feminism generated from the organization of white women back in the 60's .

Feminism and liberation should focus on family, unity, principality, morals, first and most as you said spiritual confirment restoring the roots of our family tree, our children are dying and our culture is so far apart, uniting with our brothers to restore our house, charity begins at home and work abroad, how can there be a liberation when your backyard is full. Many of us as people take on the legacy of the devils and we cry black power, how can there be a revolution when you can't bond with one another. Our babies that lives in consertration camps without mothers and fathers, abused and neglected the system dictates there future, who hear there cries when no one is listening, living the laws of the land when man don't know what he is, and where he stands, follow the sheep not the flock it will always send you to hell. Wisdom was a gift to women, but many of us continue to adapt with those things that are not of our culture.

Who fights for our children, who gives to the homeless, who take care of the elderly, who mentors to the children, who ralley for the creator, the heavely father states man who lives for the earth, slaves of the devil there shall be no freedom until men and women become submissive to his orders. Children dying in the street, linking in gangs as families, what dose this say about the black women to day, liberation should begin counseling with our black men maintaining control of our children, conference at the table, how will we save our children, if not there will be no future and liberation shall be a word has no defense, when the black culture dyes, as the people sleep.

Spoken words of liberation. :bowdown:

To gain an impeccable view from others a Black feminist needs to affirm values that are crucial to principles that supercede personal interest to glorify God. If left to only seeking things that actually are demeaning to our standing as a people and human beings, feminism will always have a millstone hanging around its knock, doing more to bend your back than to liberate you to do what you want to do.

Yes, Astro, we are striving to build a dialogue in which both men and women are active participants. Because of the unsavory and traditionally anti-male history of feminism we must have a new dialogue--a new vision, but we don't want to pour new wine into old wine skins. That's why we are looking for some other name besides feminism to portray who we are and what we stand for.

I agree with deepy. Pan-Africanism already has its own agenda and history. It already has ideas and philosophies associated with it that while being good ideas and philosophies still leave a good segment of the African-American population alienated because it doesn't seem to take into account the American part of our heritage. Pamoja bridges so many gaps; male and female, African and American, young and old, crips and bloods, whatever and whoever. If we can promote the idea of togetherness it will totally change our approach and we will accomplish so much. Can you feel me?

Astro..I am not quite clear about what you said...so maybe i need simpler language to help me.\\
Sometimes we speak to the now and forget our glorious history of women of color who have never used the word feminist..and yet they distinctly are..Dorothy Height, Mary McCloud Bethune to note two...and yet their was/aare the Flo Kennedy's of this world who draped themselves in that term and argued for and discussed issues that women today are reaping the benefits of. I would never think of the entertainers you mentioned as feminist..but i guess you are right, in some vague way they have taken the surface of a movement and used it to their advantage,
In someother thread I have addressed the concept of women not talking about being and some not even thinking (realizing) they were/are. My mother a perfect example of striving for a greater sense of fulfillment. And yet does not the term represent those who consciously work to improve conditions forthemselves, for there children, for humanity in an active , participatory way? Like Height, Bethune, Kennedy,even Madame Walker?
I started this by saying i wasn't clear about what you wanted me to understand...so it may seem that I am rambling
and river...i can feel you...I've already told some friends ofmine who meet once a month..first it was a book club , but it has become a lets get together and commune club. they too like the work Pamoja..we may call our group that (always giving you props)

Right on, deepy! Spread the word

Hey Ashanta. You got the idea. And it's not just about being married and having children. That's not for everyone but if you are going to do it then there is a lot of fulfillment to be found in that depending on one's investment. But everyone doesn't have to go that route to be involved in building up the Black family and community. Like the Bible says she who is desolate has more children than she who has a husband. As a single woman I also have more husbands because I can lift up, support, encourage, chastise, whatever, many brothers since jealousy and fidelity are not an issue.

I believe that lot of "black feminism" actions stem from racism. Racism ain't every going away. Problems that we experience directly and indirectly from racism ain't ever going away, so . . . .around and around we go.

what boggles my mind is that black women in todays time have more opportunities then black men do...look at the daily news...do you see more black women or black men as news reporters?...more black women are in college then black men and there is no comparison in federal assistance between the two sexes...none at all...custody laws favor the woman in all states in this country and treat men like dirt...what does the black man have that the black woman doesn't?

in my opinion and i am talking about rights...the answer to this question is nothing...i pose another question...what do white men have that black men don't?

this list would be too long to name and in doing so i might get mad and have this ruin my day...like i said earlier, i'm not puting womens rights down, but LOGIC not EMOTION dictates that the greater evil must be conquered before the greatest relief is felt...the greater evil has been and still is racism not sexism...i'm not here to try and convice someone to change their thought process...i just don't like seeing people fall for the oke-doke...united we stand, divided we fall...will women that have felt the pain from men continue to let this pain blind them to the big picture?...the big picture being black folks taking back what was taken from them...i know my wordz will be taken out of context...but i am glad just to be here to say them :)
one love
khasm

Excellent post Brother.

Why do some people have problems when a Black woman identifies herself as a "feminist"?

Should a Black woman only be concerned with racism and ignore sexism?

There are some who blame Black feminists for the demise of the Black family. They think being a feminist makes a Black woman too aggressive, less subservient to her man, sexually promiscuous, morally corrupt by promoting single-motherhood and unable to raise sons.

Some people think that to be a feminist means you're a lesbian and must hate men in order to fight sexism.

During the 60s and 70s, many Black women were already race-conscious but they also became gender-conscious as well. Many of these women were becoming prominent writers and activists in their own right.

Some say that all feminists are opposed to "catering" to their husbands or partners needs. If she does and her husband also caters to her needs, what does that make her?

Some women "sell" sex: prostitution, pornography, music videos, etc. Some say that these women create a stereotype and make it bad for all women. Do you blame the women, the men who participate, both, or none.

If a man opposes the oppression of sexism, is he a "feminist"?

Can a feminist also be a Christian, a Muslim or practice any other religious dogma?

A Black woman tells of her struggle to discover who she is and calls herself a feminist.

http://www.blackculturalstudies.org/wallace/hellandback.html

Hmmm...:thinking:

Blessings Sister Rivers sorry it took so long getting back, I am an old warrior, I remeber the struggles of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, I remeber the Black Panthers, and the Huey Newtons, and the poets, and those who fought just to keep dignity and respect, the Sonny Carsons, and many warriors, and the Angela Davis, I remeber the 60's at a young age, Liberation was a reality, I agree with everything you said, blessings be upon your house. A true Liberation.