Successful, independent women intimidate men. That is what the popular conception says, especially when it comes to black women. The popular idea is that a strong, successful and independent black woman is too much for black men and scares them away. It is a popular story in Ebony and Essence Magazines but it is nothing more than an urban myth. Black men are not so easily intimidated as to strike a woman from their list simply because she is successful, strong and independent. There is more to the story.

A strong, successful and independent black woman intimidates some black men, but not all, in fact, not even most. Perhaps, we have been listening to the words of only one side too long and have begun to believe it since we have heard it enough times to remember it, but hearing it does not make it true. Black men have no problem with most women and the same is true for black women when it comes to men.

The issue that seems to be lurking in the shadows is relationships. There are women who could not form a lasting relationship if someone else supplied the tools and it has nothing to do with intimidation. It has to do with building relationships. Because a man calls it quits because its too difficult to make the relationship doesn’t mean that he is intimidated. It means that it is too difficult. Relationships can be many things but they shouldn’t be difficult.

Not many people, men or women, are willing to kiss ***, subjugate themselves or lose their dignity to have a relationship. It is much easier to work with someone who has the same interests. Honesty is called for in assessing these strong black females. They are no different from the strong black independent men who are used to getting what they want and controlling their own destinies.

These personalities work fine for getting ahead in the white dominated work world, but when it carries over into interpersonal relationships, the chances for a meaningful relationship suffer as fierce independence leads the suitor to say “it ain’t worth it.” When the idea of “I don’t need a man” to make it in this world becomes a reality, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because most men sense it and won’t waste the time auditioning for a supporting role and the same is true for black women in the same situation.

Has anyone wondered if these strong black, successful a nd independent women are alone because they want to be? Have they asked if they are alone because generally most men can’t stand to put up with them for more than three dates unless a fourth will get a romp in the hay? Have they considered that thir idea of a relationship might seem like a competition in which case the man simply concedes the game and moves onto a new arena.

Truly there aren’t enough eligible black men to go around or are there? Educated black men get married everyday. They have relationships with women everyday. Many are just as well educated and independent as any woman, so why haven’t they moved into this stratified union? Are the stakes too high? Is the demand for material wealth overwhelming the need for emotional expansion?

When it comes to college degrees, black men are sadly lacking compared to black women. Women are advancing in the workplace faster than black men. Black women are making more money than black men. Are they intimidated? No, they are not intimidated. If anything, they are out of place with a woman who says she has no need of him but openly flaunts a loneliness of spirit.

Perhaps, the intimidation is the other way around. Maybe it is the intimidation of becoming vulnerable and open to a real relationship that makes a woman strive to be unapproachable because that way the onus for the failure falls upon the man and his shortcomings, instead of on her shoulders which too weak to carry the lightness of love comfortably without placing it in a hierarchy of needs.

Finally, perhaps these women are single because that’s what they want to be and there is nothing wrong with that. It is wise to remember when we are setting standards for entry that the same standards are being applied to us by the person on the next level. Black men intimidated? Just no time for bull****.

Ra


:love:

where this mentality came from, and I've often wondered where the women who say this are finding men who is "intimidated" by them? As in another thread on the board, a brother met a woman that had "credentials" and could care less about that...but was more interested in the woman herself. The concensus of the male replyers was "bump the status and material things....what substance does she bring to the table?"

Whatever happened to just saying "it didn't work out!" ?

Arrogance and pride may be our greatest faults. Whatever happened to humility and compassion? There's something pathological going on between some Black men and some Black women and it's going to destroy us if we don't figure this out and get this right.

"Perhaps, the intimidation is the other way around. Maybe it is the intimidation of becoming vulnerable and open to a real relationship that makes a woman strive to be unapproachable because that way the onus for the failure falls upon the man and his shortcomings, instead of on her shoulders which too weak to carry the lightness of love comfortably without placing it in a hierarchy of needs." This really made me pause and reflect . . .

We need to establish a "Peace Day" and I don't mean in protest of wars between nations. Black men/women need to make peace with each other. We need to take measures to start the healing process to rid ourselves of scars and pain that run long and deep. Maybe a simple: "I'm sorry," and "I love you," :love: can do a lot to bring us closer together. But they must be said with honesty and conviction--not just for a brief moment.

Forget all that crap about how strong we are, how weak we are, how much money we make, how (formally) educated we are, how we look--focusing on that more than who we are to each other, is ruining us. Black men aren't intimidated by Black women and vice versa. We're misguided and confused (IMHO).

Let the words speak and may the truth be known . . .

It seems there is more to the story than meets the eye--what it is I don't know, but I don't believe the intimidation for a minute--there is something going on--no black man or black woman is going to put up with **** just to have some one whether they are educated, rich or poor and dumb--nobody puts up with attitude, arrogance and self-centeredness.

I think the women who make these claims give themselves way too much credit. It is easy to be difficult and with a little practiced we can become impossible, but that isn't conducive to building a relationship. Relationships are about building together, about using two tools to form one item. Relationships aren't for every body, especially anyone who will only give of themselves on only their own terms--that's a dictatorship.

Ra

:heart:

yes indeed NNQ u hit it right on da nail

Women have options just like men and they choose what they want--they make the decisions just like men--Ra

:cool:

intimidation cannoit be totally ruled out , although it's not always the case....most brothas do encounter drama, but at the same time, they seem to demand so much in such little time. i.e.instead of waiting patiently for the sex to bloom, he has a calendar on how many dates it should take, typically stopping somewhere around the second or third

secondly, many sistahs have been so bruised by our men that it's hard to feel compassion or love for them anymore.....they lie and cheat for no reason and expect us to take it laying down. when we cry because the pain hurts, they label us as Weak or too sensitive or crazy.

third and last both sexes need to learn to stop competing and stop trying to impress and just express.:toast:

yes more ya so right but females as well
do push it a bit flex when they sit atop by
a few pennies or coz they have a better job
then him if people would allow self to remap
the whole thing and express emotions not wealth
they will see light more then darkness

we have men that feel the same way
women cheat , coz crazy actions and feel they right

--a lot of these women are "crying with a loaf of bread under their arm."

Ra

;)

ummm hummmm!! i feel ya

Never do we stop to realize that even a degree or good schooling is a form of materialistic needs, being as working hard gets you what you want. Everything we do in life is to live comfortably and find love. It may be that a successful woman is using this also as a reason to catch a good husband, boyfriend, splackavellie, whatever she needs. Just as we may see a thug in a "G'd " up Benz or such, we think, probably subconsciously, 'He's in da game to get women or make money." If we see the same Benz containing a young woman in a business suit, why wouldn't we think the same thing??? If we didn't, wouldn't that be considered stereotypical???

I don't know if this makes any sense, cuz half the time my opinion is so diluted and mixed. But my opinion is somewhere in da basis of what i said. :)

:heart: :heart: PLAY :heart: :heart:

and that's why I brought it up--is there truly no one out there for these women--or--are they undateable? Meaning, that men can't stand to be with them--and they take it that the men are intimidated when in fact they don't want to put up with bullsheet?--Ra

:confused:

Ron Jackson
7/8/03


Helping my sistahs out.

Contrary to popular myth, black men who date/marry white women do not desire pleasure from merely having a white woman. It does nothing to enhance his stature in society. It does nothing for his financial status. It does nothing for his ego.

The black man in an interracial relationship derives his greatest pleasure from the looks of disgust he gets from black women. Nothing empowers him more than having as many black women as possible give him and his white woman "that" look.

If looks could kill, that white girl would be lynched on the spot. You know the look. When a black woman sees a black male with a white woman, she turns her head, not the whole body. She first looks the white woman from her feet to her head and back to her feet again. Her rolling eyes and other facial expressions do all the talking. Her nose does that upward twist thing, as she simultaneously does that thing with her mouth that makes her look like she's had a stroke. Her silence says it all, "You white *****. That would have been my man if you hadn't gotten your conniving *** hands on him."

The black woman then turns her glare to the man. Eyes asking how he could forsake her, a descendent from African royalty, a woman who shares the same history as his mother, for this, this, this no good "thang" who wouldn't want him if he wasn't successful. How dare this sellout bring her over here, in our world.

Oblivious to all this, the white woman just smiles as she clings to her Mandingo warrior. However, the brotha is full aware of what is being conveyed in silence. He has succeeded in hurting a black woman one more time. He has won. He has the white woman physically, but he is still able to manipulate the emotions of the black woman.

He is truly a king. Validated by the actions of black women, not the relationship he is in with a white woman. The white woman may be by his side, but the black woman makes him feel as if he is walking on air. He only gets this treatment when he is in the company of blacks. When he is in "white world," he is not treated as such.

So, black women, if you really want to let him know how you feel, ignore him, and her. Ignore them like teeth and they will go away. It's the lack of attention to things that destroy them.

Yes, black women, you are all that. Yet you give it to the least deserving. And he knows that and appreciates that.

Ron Jackson is an author, columnist, and Motivational speaker. He can be contacted at ronjackson@rijaxn.com or visit his website: www.rijaxn.com

Perhaps there are a few "brothers" who derive pleasure from seeing a Black woman squirm because they are with a white woman, but that isn't reality. It has nothing to do with Black men wanting to hurt black women, the plain fact is that black men are in demand by other women.

Black men are far more likely to marry and date non-blacks than are black women. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the incidence of black-white married couples quadrupled between 1960 and 1990. Also, African Americans are more in demand as husbands than as wives, some research suggests, partly because black men are seen as slightly more masculine than white men and black women are seen as slightly less feminine than white women.

The bottom line is the black women are staying single and undated through no fault of their own—or is it? By restricting themselves to a small selection pool a black woman’s chances at marriage and dating dwindle each day. If relationships are about love and understanding, perhaps it is time to consider other alternatives, but as a way to hurt to black women? I don't think so.

Amun-Ra


:)

Very good points,indeed, but gov't stats only tell you what is hapening,not why. Yes, I overgeneralized just to make a point. However, black women are staying unattached by choice.... Very good choices, seeing their options.

respectfully,

rijaxn

SOme of them stay that way by choice because they have or our culture has limited to the specific dating pool--you think sisters get mad when they see a brother with other than black, it works the same way for brothers--some brothers at least--I guess if the truth be known, black men are dating every woman under the sun regardless of ethncity--it doesn't seem to work the same for black women although it seems that more black women are starting to date outside the race--still, I cannot disregard your statement that some brothers get a kick out of rubbing it in, but in those cases I don't know if I would regard them as true men much less true brothers--they are people who are insecure in themselves and derive pleasure from thinkiing that others really give a **** about what they do--I never thjought I'd see the day when sisters dated outside the race, but I was narrow-minded--the selection of men inside the race is not the best due to prison, education, etc. So why should girls have fun also?

Ra

:D

Again, you make a great argument. Black women have dated outside the race for quite a while. Just not in the numbers black men have, as you accurately pointed out... they will date any woman under the sun.

I totally agree, the key is the gross insecurity of some black men.

rijaxn
www.rijaxn.com

Originally posted by Amun-Ra
Also, African Americans are more in demand as husbands than as wives, some research suggests, partly because black men are seen as slightly more masculine than white men and black women are seen as slightly less feminine than white women. Amun-Ra ... who counducted this research? Where can we read more about it? Do your life experiences support the findings, that black women are slightly less feminine than white women?

:heart:

Destee

. . . believe it or not there are more, especially when it comes to films and books, but look under gender studies on the web for more information and also check the American Psychological Institute for abstracts and theses.

here are a feew to get you started:

http://austin.che.name/docs/gender.pdf http://www.nationalreview.com/14july97/feature.html
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/EMTEL/Conference/papers/Helcke.doc
http://www.edifyingspectacle.org/sexuality/blog/archives/gender_studies/playboy_playmates_vary_wi.php
http://www.socresonline.org.uk/3/4/2.html
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/WoC/sexualities/collins9.html

Ra

:cool:

Amun-Ra ... thanks for the links. What about my other question ... do you agree with the research, that black women are slightly less feminine than white women?

:heart:

Destee

. . . with the perception. I believe that African American females are generally seen as less feminine than white women. However, I think it is more stereotype than reality. Much of the way black men and black women are perceived has been established in the media (films, books and television) and if you go by those views, then black women are less feminine. Again, this is all based on perceptions which are in part based on stereotypical information. My own opinion is highly biased because I don't buy the perception. However, I can't deny the perception that some, including black men have of black females. Interestingly, the white woman is not the winner. The female seen as most feminie by both white and black men is the Asian female! Go figure.

Ra

;)

women of all races are equally feminine( my research). Now kinky, white women may have the market cornered on that.

rijaxn
www.rijaxn.com

An attractive woman is an attractive woman in any race--that is my personal observance--Ra

:)

So we agree, Ra. But black women , when they payback, they are much meaner( again from my research) hahaha.

rijaxn

Personally, I think it is past time for Black women to consider dating and marrying someone else. The number of black men in prison is increasing daily. Now, there are various reasons for this, but the bottom line is if you are caught, you will go to jail. We are also killing each other in record rates. Black women are attending college in greater numbers and graduating. They are looking for men on their level intellectually, financially and emotionally. I see no reason for black women to spend their time waiting on some "ideal" brother to pop out of sky and be the one. Some people pray for things to happen and others hope things happen, but in this world, you have to make thingss happen. I think someone wrote a book entitled "All the Good Men Are Already Taken" and though I haven't read it, I suspect that is has some truth in it, if we are speaking specifically of black men. Unfortunately, while some black men were concentrating on winning a sports contract, something that only will happen to less than 1% of all athletes currently trying, black women have been getting educations and moving into the world of business where there is a paucity of brothers. Of course, there are reasons for that also, but it is also a fact that black men drop out of high school, college, go to jail, become drug addicts and engage in self destructive behavior and rates far higher than black women. So, I say it is past time for black women to consider other options. The tales of women sharing a man is often too true and at the same time it is not necessary.

Ra

;)

So, I say it is past time for black women to consider other options. The tales of women sharing a man is often too true and at the same time it is not necessary.

Hmm, not much i can add to this. I agree. Women need not depend upon man or society to decide what man or type is man is best for them. Find the person who willmake that long Sunday drive( relationship) the most enjoyable. One who will drive and one who will also makea great passenger. This is America, women can make their own choices.

rijaxn

You nailed it! It is about establishing relationships. It takes courage to do it, but I think Black women have always shown the courage necessary--now it is time to take action--if the brothers don't want to play, there are plenty of men--let me say that again--there are plenty of men of others races who find black women attractive as dates and wives--I've traveled a great deal and what was once unheard of, a black woman with a white man, is becoming more apparent.


Ra

:)

I've always said, " If Kmart aint got what I want, I'm going to Wal-mart."
I've always dated the woman I wanted, not one my mom would like, or that my race dictated. No one stops a woman from having her mate of choice but her.
rijaxn

Having a college degree does not automatically make a man or woman financially, intellectually or even emotionally on higher "level" than a person that has never gone to college or indeed have a degree. Having a college degree means that you passed exams, and that the cirriculum adminstered to you was assimilated, digested and exhibited to the respective instructers, as per there criteria. Perhaps we as people need to stop wearing our degrees on our sleeves and refrain from throwing it up in each others face. After all most of us do not own our own business in the fields of employment.

In a nutshell, it is not my belief that black women intimidate men, it's simply a matter of what is projected. Like in the movie Jungle fever... the sistahs were venting about brothas doin them wrong et al. It was the wife of Wesley Snipes character.... Vonetta McGhee that said. The brothas are there. they're the milkman, the post man, the electrian etc etc. but we constantly overlook them.


Wonder why?

Originally posted by Amun-Ra
I agree . . . with the perception. I believe that African American females are generally seen as less feminine than white women. However, I think it is more stereotype than reality. Much of the way black men and black women are perceived has been established in the media (films, books and television) and if you go by those views, then black women are less feminine. Again, this is all based on perceptions which are in part based on stereotypical information. My own opinion is highly biased because I don't buy the perception. However, I can't deny the perception that some, including black men have of black females. Interestingly, the white woman is not the winner. The female seen as most feminie by both white and black men is the Asian female! Go figure.

Ra

;) I'm sure there are studies that prove to those who are willing to believe them, that we, black folk, are less everything than white folk. White folk have spent hundreds of years conducting studies to convince themselves and us that they are better in all respects. Black women are less feminine than white women. Thick, coarse hair is not as attractive as thin, stringy hair. Wide noses, thick lips, big hips, round behinds, are not as attractive as those same thinner, body parts found on white folk. Little black girls are not as pretty as little white girls (how could they be if the study reveals that white women are more feminine than black women). I'm sure there are studies that prove that black men are more violent, bad fathers, stupid, and a host of other things when compared to their white counterparts. So many studies depicting us, black folk, as the lesser of all human beings.

It doesn't surprise me that their studies would reveal these findings. What surprises me is that you agree with them, and are posting them here. This community is not trying to be one more place in the world that lifts white women up over black women. There really are lots of places all over the Internet, television, magazines, books, studies, everywhere you look, that pay homage to the white woman and white people in general. They don't need this tiny little corner of the world to help them spread their good word. Our Sisters and Brothers do need this tiny little corner because there are very few places speaking positively and consistently about us.

This community is for lifting up the black man and woman. For embracing us, teaching, loving and building with us. A place where young black women can feel safe and comfortable and begin to heal from all the many assaults placed on her mind, soul and body as a result of all these studies and day to day reminders, that say she is less than all others.

Contributions such as this are counter productive. We already have to undo the damage done by mainstream media, studies, and the reality that so many of our own people believe this propaganda. It makes no sense to spend valuable time undoing, what doesn't have to be done, right here in our own house.

We have Members waiting for columnist spots in this community. Members who want to uplift our people and encourage them. Members who believe that we are the most beautiful people on this planet. Members who believe that black women are more feminine than white women. Members that want to help heal our people from the continuous assaults on our physical, mental, and spiritual being.

Amun-Ra, we've been together a long time. You were one of the first columnists here on destee, but this effort has grown bigger than you or i. We have young black Sisters (and Brothers) that frequent here, sharing their heartache and pain. They are looking to their own, the elders in the black community, that can help guide them and give them to know that they are special, beautiful and worthy of much praise. It's heartbreaking to know that you agree with the study you cited and i couldn't sit quietly by without making my disappointment known.

I am a black woman, born of a black woman, gave birth to a black woman and provided an opportunity for a black man to host his articles here for years, for him to tell me and all my Sisters that he agrees, black women are less feminine than white women. Go figure.

Destee

I have found this discourse to be interesting and not very uplifting as a Panafricanist and advocate of afrocentristic views.

Suggesting that Black women follow suit behind some Black men by dating and marrying outside their race may seem to be a plausible remedy to some but in my view, it only addresses a very narrow problem and creates a bigger problem, i.e., racial extinction.

Throughout this Forum the subject of so many threads here is an obvious appeal for us to come together for the purpose of BUILDING a stronger more loving and more positive African American community. I would like someone to explain to me how this would be possible if Black men and Black women desert each other (for whatever social reasons) and choose men/women of different races as their life partner? Where in that solution does our future as a people lie?

The topic is about Black women intimidating Black men and it seems to be the consensus among most replies that this is not true. I wholeheartedly agree. Ra, the perception (statistically based or not) that Black women are viewed as less feminine than women of other races reeks of racist poison and instead of reporting this as a statement of truth because some research data may support it, we should be quick to retort with our truth--that is if you disagree with that BS. Frankly I could care less about any data that supports only one premise--racism--and this clearly, clearly does. Think about it my brother, by whose standards is femininity and masculinity being defined?

It's my humble opinion, that if we agree that there is a disproportionate number of Black men in prison as compared to white men; if Black women lose a certain percentage due to homosexuality and substance abuse; if another percentage are lost to the Black woman due to his choosing to be with "other" women (bump the demand for him because no one is twisting his arm to choose), it seems to me that the solution is not to desert the Brothers that are left by choosing men of other races, but to work harder to recuperate our losses, give credence to those brothers remaining in the available pool and stick with the plan which is to build a stronger and better Black community.

If the choice was as easy as looking at other men, as it seems to be for Black men to make, then why is it a tougher more reluctant decision for most Black women to make? Why is the solution for Black women to change her thinking instead of encouraging Black men to change their views?

This sounds so much like when you hear people say, "White people do it, why not Blacks?" When are we going to learn that in some things, the answer is NOT to duplicate what we see others do, especially when it only serves the individual, but to do the opposite by holding true to your communal beliefs, especially when they serve the greater good of entire Black race.

P.S. Ra, what percentage of Brothers in prison do you think are really guilty of committing a crime and were tried in an objective and unbiased judicial system versus those that are there simply because they are guilty of being Black?

I said I agree with the perception because in the United States perception is reality--you will also notice that I said, I am highly biased in my opinion on what I think is feminine, but I didn't venture my opinion on what I think is feminine--I simply reported what the studies show and left my opinion on black women, white women, Asian woman, Latino women and any other women to myself.

In essence I took no stance. On the contrary, I went out of my way to point out the stereotypical basis for much of this negativity which is not all generated by the white community. Indeed, a great deal of the negative image in the general public domain is generated within the black community itself, but that is also old news. Whether we like it or not, black women are seen as less feminine by majority society and even by some within the black community.

Probably, the major issue with these opinion studies is that most of the respondents don't really know anyone from the black community on an intimate basis and the only point of reference they have is what they see in the popular media. For blacks who hold those opinions, I believe the same is true. They are probably far removed from the community and have little to draw on if they don't keep close family ties.

Shooting the messenger is not going to change those opinions, but changing the message might and changing the message means that we, as a people, must make what is real known. How? That is the most difficult part. Unfortunately, as I pointed out, these studies poll people whose only real contact with the black community is in the workplace or what they see or hear in the media.

The media is powerful in establishing images. It is those images that we must change. As an example, Spike Lee castigated Morgan Freeman for his role in "Driving Miss Daisy," in essence saying that Freeman was an Uncle Tom for doing the role. Actors act, and unfortunately, the number of black actors who work on a regualr basis is still limited. The role Freeman played was indeed a negative image, but at that time in history, it was reality. Should he have not done the role? Would someone else have done it if he didn't? Who knows?

The point I am making is that for much of white America, what they know of blacks is generated by what they see in and hear in the media. That is why I believe their perception, as skewed as it may be, it is honest. However, although it may be honest, it is based upon limited contact which is a distorted version of reality. Still, femininity like beauty is highly subjective--it is in the eye of the beholder.

I still haven't ventured my opinion because this wasn't about my opinion, it was about others' opinions about black women and why they might hold those views--nothing more. However, there is plenty here to chew on because we should be bothered that we are seen that way. Or, we should at least wonder why.

Ra

:confused:

I would buy part of that simply because there have always been those who wanted the other woman simply because she was white. It is well documented fact and it still happens today. You are right in that the results of the study should come as no surprise.

However, the sad part upon which you commented is that there are those in our own community who would agree to those studies and it is precisely because of the things I mentioned. Basically, they are blacks who have in some way become isolated from the black community. Unfortunately, with all the other "isms" we deal with from day to day, the black community is not immune from classism. Classes tend to separate into their own subgroups and it is not unlikely that some blacks have little day to day contact with the black community in general aside from their family and this might be one cause.

Racial hatred still exists within the community and is displayed in a variety of ways. We also cannot discount ignorance. Basically, the studies are based on majority male opinion that is largely ignorant of the black community. Still, I blame the media for perpetuating these negative stereotypes and I blame us for not taking them to task more often.

Letters to the editors may not seem to make much of an impact, but enough of them can. Withholding our buying power is another way. When we say enough is enough and back it up, then it will change. We have to change the perception and we have to do it by making the media accountable. We can't do it by complaining to each other, we have to be willing to take time to force issues.

Years ago, I can remember my father's frustration at the requests he got from friends and family to bring them a case of Coors beer. Coors was not available nationwide, but many blacks liked its taste. What many ignored was a black boycott of the Coors brewery because they didn't hire blacks. Not only did they not hire blacks, they said they absolutley wouldn't. Still, my father was constantly saying no to relatives and friends who wanted Coors beer.

We have to be a team to beat this or the stereotype stands as reality.


Ra



:smash:

Originally posted by Amun-Ra
I said I agree with the perception because in the United States perception is reality--you will also notice that I said, I am highly biased in my opinion on what I think is feminine, but I didn't venture my opinion on what I think is feminine--I simply reported what the studies show and left my opinion on black women, white women, Asian woman, Latino women and any other women to myself. You say you agree with the perception, and that perception is reality, but you've not shared your opinion?! By citing studies that lift white women up over black women, you have in essence voiced your opinion. It may not be your entire opinion, but you have given us a glimpse of where you stand on this issue. It would have been all too easy to post information lifting black women up, but you chose not to do that. Originally posted by Amun-Ra
In essence I took no stance. On the contrary, I went out of my way to point out the stereotypical basis for much of this negativity which is not all generated by the white community. Indeed, a great deal of the negative image in the general public domain is generated within the black community itself, but that is also old news. Whether we like it or not, black women are seen as less feminine by majority society and even by some within the black community.You went out of your way to avoid responding directly, to my direct question. As i said above, your stance was determined when you posted that information vs. information that would uplift black women. I agree that it is not all generated by the white community. We have a perfect example right here. You are black man, in a black community, posting negative information about black women. I don't care that the majority society think black women are less feminine. I don't even care if some in the black community believe this. My only concern is that a columnist on destee is posting this lie here.Originally posted by Amun-Ra
Probably, the major issue with these opinion studies is that most of the respondents don't really know anyone from the black community on an intimate basis and the only point of reference they have is what they see in the popular media. For blacks who hold those opinions, I believe the same is true. They are probably far removed from the community and have little to draw on if they don't keep close family ties.Black women were nursing their white babies, which required close and intimate contact, and they believed we were less feminine then too. White men were leaving their feminine white women, to rape black women, which required close and intimate contact, and we were still less feminine. White folk will think the worst of black folk regardless of how intimate we are with them, history has proven this. For blacks who hold this opinion, they hate themselves and anyone that looks like them.Originally posted by Amun-Ra
Shooting the messenger is not going to change those opinions, but changing the message might and changing the message means that we, as a people, must make what is real known. How? That is the most difficult part. Unfortunately, as I pointed out, these studies poll people whose only real contact with the black community is in the workplace or what they see or hear in the media.If the messenger is perpetuating lies and negative images of black people, in a community dedicated to uplifting black people, he needs to be shot. How do we change the message and make what is real known? We get conscious writers, columnists, poets, Sisters and Brothers, and we build a community where the real information can be made available. We build together, focusing on our positives, since we have so many that are rarely written about. We work night and day to make sure it's up and running properly. We require every Member to respect each other. We spend our money, time, and energy to support and keep it running. We make sure all the words found within, at least those posted by people in administrative positions (moderators, columnists, etc.), be moving us upward, toward that place that allows us to shake off the centuries of hate that has been rained down upon us. This is what many of us are doing in an effort to change the message and make what is real known.Originally posted by Amun-Ra
The media is powerful in establishing images. It is those images that we must change. As an example, Spike Lee castigated Morgan Freeman for his role in "Driving Miss Daisy," in essence saying that Freeman was an Uncle Tom for doing the role. Actors act, and unfortunately, the number of black actors who work on a regualr basis is still limited. The role Freeman played was indeed a negative image, but at that time in history, it was reality. Should he have not done the role? Would someone else have done it if he didn't? Who knows?I have absolutely no control over mainstream media, or what jobs they offer blacks, or if black folk accept the jobs. I think black folk should do whatever they must to live and survive. Our accepting jobs that we may not feel in our heart is what we want to do, to feed our families, is nothing new.Originally posted by Amun-Ra
The point I am making is that for much of white America, what they know of blacks is generated by what they see in and hear in the media. That is why I believe their perception, as skewed as it may be, it is honest. However, although it may be honest, it is based upon limited contact which is a distorted version of reality. Still, femininity like beauty is highly subjective--it is in the eye of the beholder.You speak for white america as though they briefed you on what to say, making excuses for why they portray us so negatively in the media. They created their skewed perception. It is exactly how they want it to be. They don't want to be any closer to you black man, than they have to be. They move as soon as you can afford a house in their neighorbood. They create private clubs and private schools so their women and children will never know you. They banish and disown that feminine white woman that has the loss of mind to lay with you. They love their distorted reality, and unfortunately, many black folk do too.Originally posted by Amun-Ra
I still haven't ventured my opinion because this wasn't about my opinion, it was about others' opinions about black women and why they might hold those views--nothing more. However, there is plenty here to chew on because we should be bothered that we are seen that way. Or, we should at least wonder why.You're writing about white people's opinions of us, and the black folk that agree with them, and why they hold these views? Why are you doing this? Hasn't history, and every mainstream media outlet provided this information, and continue to assault us with it non-stop? Why do you choose to share their opinions? Please share your opinion my Brother, it is much more important to us.

Destee

As I said, I haven't ventured an opinion and you insist on hanging one around my neck. As a writer my business is to provoke a reaction and to see what people think.

Not long ago a commentary appeared in the now defunct Emerge Magazine that talked about the Negro Thought Police who were described as the self-appointed gatekeepers of “correct” Black thinking and action. It was an interesting commentary claiming that one does not easily go against the grain in the Black community without risking serious consequences and penalties and this sounds like one of those cases. It is a curious form of Orwellian thought policing that only comes to the surface after the fact.

The fact that I have been marrried to same the same black women for 20 years is my opinion. When I say I am HIGHLY BIASED, must I spell it out so everyone knows where my sympathies lie? I thought that was a sublte enough hint. I took "me" out of this story. It was not about me and it still isn't.

Since we have we become afraid of opinions? Everyone has one and everyone who doesn't agree with those opinions think their opinion is right even though its just an opinion. The only fact reported here is that people have certain opinions. Whether we agree with them or not is another matter and hopefully that provokes a response.

I feel absolutely no need to display my black credentials, although I could, but then folks would be reading about me and that is certainly something that I don't want. I am interested in other people's ideas and opinions.

By the way, I enjoy the debate and find it refreshing that someone cares enough to be upset at me, even though that was not my intent. It seems no one else wants to take a stab here. I am surprised that only you came out with a strong opinion pro or con on a subject designed to provoke.



Ra

:confused:

Screaming "Fire!" in a crowded theatre will get a reaction. Posting the results of a study that claims white women are more feminine than black women, in an african american community, will get a reaction too. I'm not a writer and i don't know how writers rank eliciting a reaction vs. sharing truth, knowledge, wisdom, and guidance geared to lifting and encouraging our people. I would imagine it varies from writer to writer.

Certainly presenting this type of information can be the stimulus for a very lengthy, heated, and passionate discussion. Sisters and Brothers expending energy to debate whether the white folk's study is true, "Are black women really less feminine than white women?" All of this while our people are suffering, while our people are dying, while our people need love, support, and encouragement from each other, while our young ladies are allowing themselves to be mistreated by men, while our young men are full of rage for many reasons, while crack cocaine is devastating our lives, while black men are dying at the hands of black men, while prisons are overflowing with black folk that have done no more than white folk, while legal slavery in america exists (young, strong, black men locked up to be worked however the government sees fit), while our teenagers have sex and make babies long before they're ready, while AIDS ravishes our communities, while poverty and homelessness abound, while a small black child wishes someone would hug them, while our tired and weak elderly raise our youth, while our Sisters sell their bodies, while many of our people remain consciously asleep, blaming the victims, all of us just a few generations removed from slavery. Yes, we can debate the white folk's study, but there are so many more important issues we need to address.

You are a writer and an elder. You could be sharing ways for our young Brothers to overcome the traps and snares that are laid for them. You could share how you overcame, how you avoided prison and maintained a marriage to a beautiful black woman for 20 years, raised a family, and made it through. You can give them to know that in spite of all they may see or hear, success is possible. Do you know how many young black men (and women) never had a black man in their life, and would appreciate reading the encouraging words of a black elder male? It is not about black credentials. If a Black man in america has anything, he worked hard for it. Nothing was handed to him. No, it's not about black credentials, it's about leading, guiding, teaching, and showing our Sisters and Brothers the way.

You've been contributing articles here for years and i have never said anything regarding the content of them. I am not trying to police your opinions, nor am i afraid of them, but they can't degrade us. I am responsible for, and very serious about, the goals of this community. I believe we have an opportunity to make a real and positive difference in the lives of many of our Sisters and Brothers. I believe we can be about loving, encouraging, embracing, teaching, and building with our people. If a Member (especially a columnist or moderator) does or says something that appears contrary to this vision, i must speak on it and if necessary, act on it.

:heart:

Destee

Never thought would--but for this piece I wanted to see the reaction--unfortunately, the most responses came from women and although I do not discount there input, I really wanted to hear from men to see what they had to say about it--I have always been curious about our support of the black female and to tell the truth, at times I find it lacking. I am not afraid to broach the subject, but on thispartcular piece I hoped some men would step to the plate and say they thought black women were more feminine and her's why. I even thought we might have a brother with enough courage to say that he believed that others were more feminine. Okay, maybe I didn't expect that cause the brother would have to stupid because of the negative reaction the it no doubt produce, but I did want hear what men thought about it. We are the ones who decide a woman's beauty in all cultures, even though woman have their own standards. We me3n tend to set the standards of what we like in a woman including her femininity, beauty and even style of clothes. Fortunately, aot all women adhere to the standards men arbitrarily set, but a great many do and they influence other black men in how they see beauty.
Still, the greatest purveyor of what is beautiful is the media, including the black media. Look in our own media and see what we portay as beautiful for a woman. It's there in Ebony, Essence, Jet and a host of popular magazines. Check it all out and then let someone report what they find. I would be interested. I'd like to see if someone do it a report back to all of us. I mean go through the various magazines and check for body sizes, facial features and skin color. Check for the models for eye colors, hair textures, length of hair, how many possess certain attributes and which women receive the most press and if there is any commonality there. I'd love to see it.

But this is not controversial, my knew book will be released in August and I have tackled atheism in the black community. They are out there and we walk past them everyday without even knowing. My book introduces the world to what no one thought existed--the black atheist.


Ra

:heart:

Originally posted by Amun-Ra
We are the ones who decide a woman's beauty in all cultures, even though woman have their own standards. We me3n tend to set the standards of what we like in a woman including her femininity, beauty and even style of clothes. Fortunately, aot all women adhere to the standards men arbitrarily set, but a great many do and they influence other black men in how they see beauty.

Ra

:heart:

Are you deliberately trying to start a riot in here?

Amun-Ra...the sheer arrogance of this statement makes my head spin and want to spit! Seconds after reading this I wanted to hold my stomach and laugh. Shaking my head, I thought of how sad it is that, just because you're a man, AND a BLACK man at that, you are caught up in your own sense of power and control to even THINK that you and other men set the standard for beauty--not only in America but all over the globe? *lmbo*

My, my...nothing could be farther from the truth! You think that a group of Gay men in the fashion industry dictate what makes a woman beautiful? You think that because men drool and grab their crotches whenever they see women dressed in a provocative way, it's him that determines her standard for beauty? And because some Black men sniff behind white women with their tongues hanging out their mouths--that makes Black women want to be like her or jealous of her because you think she's beautiful? What are you thinking?

Are you and other Black men who think like this really that shallow and egotistical to believe that the fraternity of men decide what makes a woman beautiful and what doesn't? Do you really THINK that men control everything in the world and all women do is skip merrily along waiting for him to drop her a crumb and a notion so that she can try to morph into your image?

A man's LUST for women does not determine beauty nor does it set the standard for what beautiful means. If that was the case, then why are there some men who don't subscribe to this notion that white women are more beautiful and feminine than Black women? Are these the lost brothers of some dying tribe?

This is disturbing! Wake up! :maddd:

Of course I'm trying to start a riot! If it isn't clear by now I wanted this topic to pizz people off and provoke some insightful and thoughtful answers as to why someone might even hold these opinions, what is reality and a whole host of other examinations of a distasteful topic. I see the men have conveniently stayed away from commenting or they don't know were discussing it. Still, there have been more objections to the topic than to examination of why someone might hold such views, is there any validity is such views, a defense of black femininity, how such views may come about, why would a black man hold some of these views, why do some black women agree with these views and a whole host of other views on an admittedly distatsteful subject, but the main response has been to the topic itself and that is not a discussion. There are issues inside of issues in this topic, but no one has tried to harvest them. Perhaps my mistake was not the topic, but in expecting the discussion. Yes, this is designed to provoke, but the provocation was for thought, careful examination and then mindful response. That is all, but I still learned a couple of things from this topic even though it wasn't about the opinions presented. I learned that contoversial subjects are dealt with by protesting the subject and that the messenger takes the chance of being blamed, and that's all right, I knew it was risk when I presented it.

Ra

:cool:

Ra you said
I see the men have conveniently stayed away from commenting or they don't know were discussing it.

I for one didn't know you guys were discussing this. It took me about an hour to read the thread to gain an insight into the discussion. I originally responded to the original topic "Intimidated Black Men?" and was trying to figure out how it evolved to the preception of black women being less feminine to other. I originally thought that you injected that study to spawn discussion perhaps in provoking thoughts on the whys of such perceptions but the responses were everything but.

Let me be on record by saying the study is hog-wash!! To me, black women enhances any/and all standards of beauty applied to this society. We don't have to entertain studies to define us. We don't have to defend negative allegations thrown at us, but sometimes we can't ignore these allegations as well.

We KNOW bettah than to believe these studies, but what if we didn't know bettah? Sistahs I've heard your opinions on tattoes and they haven't been too complimentary; I've heard your opinions on long fake fingernails and they haven't been too flattering; I've heard your opinions on the dress of some of your sisters (baggy clothes, thong exposing, this "hard-look" and other uncomplimenting styles); I've heard your opinions and you seem to be concerned about these things because you know in the greater society at large, that these images will come to paint all black women with the same broad stroke. So if we didn't KNOW bettah, I can see how such a perception occur. But WE KNOW BETTAH!! ... They DON'T!!! Their view into our community is through unrealistic vision.

Should we be concerned about this study? NO! ... should we be concerned about those images mentioned? I don't know ... should we?

Destee, NNQueen...in your Sister-Chats, do you ladies discuss perceptions like these with the younger sisters? How do you approach perceptions that you might feel is negative but is very popular among the general populous in the black community?

Studies like these shouldn't bother us in the least because we KNOW bettah so Ra I don't think it will start a riot, but does it warrants even a minute of thought? I'm asking because I don't know.

as the disseminator of the info, I didn't want to put my comments on this topic, but as you said--this topic is redicously easy to debunk--it is opinion which everyone has, but more importantly we know better, but because we know better--does that mean that we don't comment on it--I don't think so, I think we respond to all the people who promote this other issue to let them know different--but I couldn't seem to get that response-- I would hate to get into affirmative action, school vouchers, the recent supreme court decision or abortion--this these topics I posted were simply opinion of other folks and should be easy blow out of the water--hopefully, we are so recalcitrant to comment on other topics that really have meat of the bones--all this was about is perceptions--and we all know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder--but except for one--we never reached that simple conclusion. No riot--just discussion.

Ra

:heart: