My Sisters ... (of course Brothers are welcome to comment too) ... what do you mean when you tell a "man" to "be a man?" I don't know what made me just think of this, but i did. :)

I'm wondering how we can suggest for a man to be a man, when God made him a man. Are we any less a woman because we may not live up to the expectations of others? I know there is no single act that can take my "woman-ness" from me. So why do we sometimes suggest that a man can be less than a man? Should we challenge ourselves not to attack our Brother's very manhood? And, if there is any truth to the cliche, it takes one to know one, aren't we the last ones to be suggesting that a man isn't a man?

Just wondering what yall think ...

:heart:

Destee

Des, great topic and it should spark some interesting discussion. I'll join Keme and get the ball rolling.

First, we don't live in an androgynous society where men and women are viewed as being "equal." I think that paternalistic (male dominant) societies (like America) and some religions (like Christianity) have set the standard by which men are thought about by themselves and by women.

American society dictates in a number of ways the roles it assigns to men and women. For example, television in the 1950s and 1960s showed what America thought about the acceptable roles of women as nurturers and men as providers. (I won't bother to make the distinction about race differences at this point). The Bible describes roles and duties of a husband and a wife. That belief is woven in the fabric of our society.

So, I think that when some women say "be a man," what they're saying is, what the Bible describes that a man should be like in every way.

"Should we challenge ourselves not to attack our Brother's very manhood?"

I think you're right. Women shouldn't strip her men of their manhood no matter how angry or upset she might be. And also, women shouldn't dehumanize men and then EXPECT them to be understanding and willing to work with her on relationship problems. Once the words have been put out there, you can't take them back.

"And, if there is any truth to the cliche, it takes one to know one, aren't we the last ones to be suggesting that a man isn't a man?"

Yeah, I think there's truth to that cliche' Des, however, maybe it doesn't apply in all things. You know as well as I that Black women have been forced to wear both hats in her family since coming to these shores. It's not her fault nor is it the Black man's fault. It's the affects of a racist society. So a Black woman has worn a Black man's shoes before and I think she can relate to his struggle. But that's not to say that Black women wouldn't willingly give up a man's role and turn it over to her man but I think what happens sometimes is women want to see men take responsibility for things they do in relationships. And yes, that pendulum swings both ways and should.

"be like I want you to be" :confused:

Men (as well as women) have a multitude of character, some good...some bad. So what is saying to someone "Be a Man" really mean? What part of "being a man" does that implies? Man is defined as a male adult. So the implication is not on the "man" part but, I would venture to say, more on the "adult" part which is subjective to say the least. This is why I say what they are saying is "be more like I want you to be" :)

I further believe that saying something like that to a man can possibly be construed as an attack of "manhood" only because society has been conditioned to group behavior into defining the sex of a person. Saying that is not being very constructive, it probably does more harm than good, imho.

NNQueen quoted:
So a Black woman has worn a Black man's shoes before and I think she can relate to his struggle

Could you please elaborate on your statement, particularly on how black women have worn black men's shoes? I understand who women can relate to the struggles of being black, but I just want to be clear on how women have worn our shoes :)

ZG...Ooooo...I feel a challenge coming on and me thinks I have struck a nerve *lol*

First let me qualify my comments to state that I'm not coming from some lightweight perspective that incorporates the unyielding drama that exists in a lot of superficial relationships today. I'll let someone else address the senseless "stuff" that happens when people are immature and seem to thrive off hurting each other.

So having said that, what I meant WAS . . .when a man is thought of in a "traditional" sense . . . head of the household meaning that he provides for the family, acts to protect and defend his family, helps to guide and live by example . . . etc., Black women, in the absence of a Black man present in the home, have had to share that role, AS WELL AS, be the "traditional" nurterer of the family.

I don't think this is a novelty experience confined to modern times either. I think from the time that we stepped foot on these shores, Black women have worked side by side with the Black man in many ways. Neither one of us have had the luxury of being "privileged" in our roles in this society. When the Black man was stopped and shut down by Jim Crow, the Black woman stepped up and took over many times to keep the family going.

I don't intend for my opinion to demean the Black man in any way or strip him of his manhood. I don't find fault nor place blame on him when a Black woman has had to do what a woman has had to do to survive. So, that's what I meant when I said that Black women have worn Black men's shoes. And I still think it's wrong for a woman to tell a man to "be like a man," and yes, you're correct that what she means is "be like I want you to be." That notion leads me to another thread about how we "choose" our mates, but I won't bother straying too far from this topic.

Hopefully this is clearer and I'm open to different opinions--as always!! :)

Queen...you didn't strike a nerve :)

I just wanted to be clear on your meaning or better yet ... my interpretation of your words.

Your qualifying comment really addressed my concern in your statement, and I concur with your position on [the senseless "stuff" that happens when people are immature and seem to thrive off hurting each other].

The intent of the hurting of others was what I needed to be clear on, because I think the words "be a man" is about that and not one of an uplifting nature (i could be wrong about that). Sometimes you might hear a woman say, similar to what you said, to a man in a not-so-flattering way as well. I thought you might have been addressing that from the perspective of the thread as a further demonstration.

I'm clear.

I'm glad I could be of help, ZG!! :)

P.S. You're far too busy these days and I miss your posts! I hope that duties will permit you more time in the future!

Of course Queenie is speaking figuratively, Keme.
DDDUUUHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Shaddup Keme and put a sock in it!!! Ignat!

point is one can't judge of man as man nor woman
yet forth the judge is cast by the Father only whom
is the judge
when one speak of be a man as to pose grow up
some down the manhood of a man's beings
once man is molded he is to be not judged
nor can woman be of higher speed
yet in today's world man & woman is sought to be equal
by the same jobs the same pay scale and yet very different
wo-man cannot fill shoes of man ...............

now tell me how do u define MAN ????

Keme, you must try harder to control your tirades. Please explain why you think a woman can't "wear a man's shoes"?

And stop attacking Scorp (monetg)!!

i probably should go back and read the posts, but when a woman says, be a man, she probably means just that! MAN UP! be a **** man! handle your business, suck it up, handle dat, get over yourself, nobody wants to hear you cryin'...be a **** man! i think it's self explanatory. ok, so redlady is in a mood today...but you all know i don't usually post like this.

My thoughts on this are much the same as Zerogravitys..

I think it is a derogatory term to tell any man to "be a man"...because who decided what "being a man" entails...the term would have individual/personal meanings for everyone..so when we say to someone to "be a man" aren't we really saying, be a man according to what I perceive a man to be...
what one person may see as a manly attribute may not be viewed in the same light by another...

K

I agree with kitana, let a man define his own manlyness I wouldnt know nothing about bein a man...LOL I'm all woman

I agree with triniti

I do not dare to say that to a man, i do not like to hurt feelings but sometimes i just notice that my ovaries are just bigger! Probably i mean that i just have more guts, more dominance then the man in question, especially when they think i'm less because i am a woman.

I fully understand what is meant usually if a woman tell a man to be a man, but what i don't think what a lot of woman don't understand is to be a woman in the traditional sense. I say this because when words like "be a man..." are said it's awayz in the traditional sense of the man taking care of everything. So if any woman was to tell me that I'd tell her to stay in a woman's place. Why because she obvious thinks there's a place for a man, which I have no problem as long as she has a place for a woman.

very good points Im_the_truth and Triniti. A lot of women are quick to tell a man " be a man" have no Idea what it means to be a man, especially a black man, simply due to the fact that they are female. I can't tell a woman to be a woman. I can observe how feminine a woman can be, but not what makes her a woman. I believe... in many cases, that women who often say this, have some issues with the dominant male in their childhood. Perhaps the father was not around or if he was, he was very abusive in one way or the other. So, as a consequence they were never exposed to a healthy experience and/or proper guidance from the father while growing up. To be very frank here... many women who say this are angry at men.

truth:

1. in traditional african communities of west africa. women officiate the rites of passage for girls.
2. in traditional african communities of west africa. women confirm the passage of girl to a woman.
3. in traditional african communities of west africa. men officiate the rites of passage for boys.
4 in traditional african communities of west africa. women and men confirm the passage of boys to men.

5. contemporary women hold too many emotional (read biases) hangups to continue to do so.

BUT -

until black women can resolve the following issues, they are can not and should not make qualitative judgements about manhood.

1. men are not all dogs. and the debate ends.
2. boys will not "just" be boys, as an excuse for bad behavior.
3. the majority of men are capable of thinking above the waist, but socialization, not nature inhibits that.
4. there is no gender war worth continuing in the black community.
5. release any hate or resentment of the black male.

ifasehun,

I agree!

Originally posted by ifasehun
truth:

1. in traditional african communities of west africa. women officiate the rites of passage for girls.
2. in traditional african communities of west africa. women confirm the passage of girl to a woman.
3. in traditional african communities of west africa. men officiate the rites of passage for boys.
4 in traditional african communities of west africa. women and men confirm the passage of boys to men.

5. contemporary women hold too many emotional (read biases) hangups to continue to do so.

BUT -

until black women can resolve the following issues, they are can not and should not make qualitative judgements about manhood.

1. men are not all dogs. and the debate ends.
2. boys will not "just" be boys, as an excuse for bad behavior.
3. the majority of men are capable of thinking above the waist, but socialization, not nature inhibits that.
4. there is no gender war worth continuing in the black community.
5. release any hate or resentment of the black male.


I have to also say that I agree with what is stated here, especially about how contemporary women hold too many emotional hangups...ain't that the truth!!! I often hear some women I know claim, "I'm a woman, we are just emotional." But I have always wondered if we over-exaggerate this base on this society's conditioning or if this is a universal truth. However I will rely on my instinct and say that in this society women have been conditioned to be over emotional..
In my opinion Ifasehun your commentary is on point....

IMO, when a woman tells a man to "be a man" she may be referring to the fact that he is either not being responsible and is acting out the boy inside of him. some men on one hand want to be the dictator, and still want to do what children do. they may only be thinking of their, own emotions at times and behaving in ways that are not conducive to the bettement of either partner.:toast:

i told my man be a man when he start neglecting his duties to me. it became hard on me when he lost his job. i love him with all my heart but i couldnt carry his load no more. he a child not by me and wasnt meeting his obligations. even tho his baby mama and i don't get along. i told him being their morally isn't enough he needs to provide finacially. you know they are reforming the child support order now. now both parents must pay instead of the absent father. this is making all the men around the world happy. i say its not right, and the monies they award sucks too. this world is expensive. i love him dearly but i had just snap and told him he should be taking care of me. its not my responsibility to feed ya, clothe ya, sex ya, oh wait a minute scratch that, get your beer, have dinner ready when i'm working hell naw. brotha had to go i told him get a job stop mooching off of me. and in plain words i said BE A *********MAN! I WAS MAD AS******************* SORRY JUST VENTING!!!!!!!!:kiss1: :maddd:

My Sisters ... (of course Brothers are welcome to comment too) ... what do you mean when you tell a "man" to "be a man?" I don't know what made me just think of this, but i did.

I'm wondering how we can suggest for a man to be a man, when God made him a man. Are we any less a woman because we may not live up to the expectations of others? I know there is no single act that can take my "woman-ness" from me. So why do we sometimes suggest that a man can be less than a man? Should we challenge ourselves not to attack our Brother's very manhood? And, if there is any truth to the cliche, it takes one to know one, aren't we the last ones to be suggesting that a man isn't a man?

But I don't think a woman born in this society should ever tell a man to "be a man".

Not knowing what it's like to be a man nor having the proper education on masculinity, she's in no real position to question anyone's manhood.


Plus, a lot of times women use that phrase too lightly and often at the wrong time.

I was working with a old girlfriend in the school office one time....we were in our teens....and she wanted me to go somewhere with her.
I said no, and she jumped up smiling and kept saying "be a man" "be a man and go with me down there".
Then the female teacher who was with us started saying the same thing in a joking manner.

"Come on...be a man and go with Noel down there, maybe she'll need you for something".

So both of them were on me with this "be a man" crap.


I wasn't hurt or anything like that, but I was a little irritated that these two chicks...if both of them were combined.....wouldn't be as strong as me had the nerve to tell me who wasn't even 18 yet to "be a man".

I think for someone to challenge your manhood they should atleast be a man and have a thorough knowledge of manhood themselves.

I think most (rational) people would agree that when they say "be a man" they're telling him to be responsible, to be the head of the household, to "put his foot down" and behaive in such a way that properly compliements his "manhood." In the face of everything, we (in society and most mainstream religions) are told that men are supposed to maintain, support and protect women, and women are their partners, help-mates, whatever. The problem is that in this day and age, gender roles are not clearly defined. But I definately think that "be a man" means taking care of responsibilities rather than trying to shirk his duties, especially in a family sense. Too many men are getting themselves in situations and not picking up the slack. (Now, the women... that's a whole'nother can of works....)

I feel that no woman is in the postion to tell a man to "be a man".

First of all, what woman knows what it's like to be a man and what it takes to be a man?

Secondly, if you have to tell your man to "be a man", then obviously you don't know anything about men....because you picked the wrong one.

Third, usually when a woman says "be a man", it's because she's trying to belittle him and get him to do something, whether it's right or wrong. Women try and mess with a man's ego in order to manipulate him into action. Also, many times it's regarding MONEY.

The only one who knows how to be a man...are men (and not all men at that). That's why women are raising so many little hoodlums, because they have no idea what it takes to be or raise a man. If you can't even mold a little impressionable baby into a man, how do you think you can tell a grown man to "be a man". It makes no sense. If a woman utters those words to a man that's secure in himself and the way he lives his life, she might find herself along with the majority of women in this country......single.

I feel that no woman is in the postion to tell a man to "be a man".

First of all, what woman knows what it's like to be a man and what it takes to be a man?

Secondly, if you have to tell your man to "be a man", then obviously you don't know anything about men....because you picked the wrong one.

Third, usually when a woman says "be a man", it's because she's trying to belittle him and get him to do something, whether it's right or wrong. Women try and mess with a man's ego in order to manipulate him into action. Also, many times it's regarding MONEY.

The only one who knows how to be a man...are men (and not all men at that). That's why women are raising so many little hoodlums, because they have no idea what it takes to be or raise a man. If you can't even mold a little impressionable baby into a man, how do you think you can tell a grown man to "be a man". It makes no sense. If a woman utters those words to a man that's secure in himself and the way he lives his life, she might find herself along with the majority of women in this country......single.

I think that instead of telling a man to "be a man", women should simply say what they are really thinking. They should just say be responsible, be mature, be supportive, be productive, etc...

However women are not single-handedly creating hoodlums. Men contribute to this, when they leave the woman to raise their child in substandard living conditions, rather than being responsible, mature, supportive, and productive as fathers. As a result of a father's absence, a woman raises a child, not a hoodlum...who may decide on his own one day to associate himself with negative people and things to make up for that absence.

Also men have been both defining and confining the feminine attributes that a woman should have, and her place in the world. How is this practice (which is centuries old), any less degrading than telling a man to "be a man".
Don't get me wrong, they are both unjustified acts of disrespect, but for some reason some people just can't see an injustice until it is directed at them.

This is a subject that seems to pop up from time to time…and I guess it’s because of the instability or absence of traditional family structures in our community.

There seems to be this ongoing debate concerning the difference between a “male” and a “real man” or the anatomical definable “male species” vs. the ethically and morally defined man. Though it’s easy to dismiss a Black man who seems to be irresponsible and insecure as being less than an acceptable definition of a man, but I think this is putting a distinction and judgment on African American men that is without cultural or historical merit.

When young men in Africa as young as 13 or 14 years old go through a rite of passage, which traditionally initiates them into “actual manhood” they usually are still without many of the skills and responsibilities of a full-fledged mature man. But still they are considered a man and nothing less. To deny ANY Black man the title of MAN, leaves him with no construct in which to be judged by or aspire to. We should expect Black men to act like men and develop whatever skills needed to perform as a man because we should refuse to see him as anything less than a man. I myself have used this play on words and standards (male vs. man) in describing the virtues of a man, but I realize we must all be careful with these analogies or we’ll be unknowingly feeding the self –loathing and self-destructive behavior of those who seem to lack the ability to realize what is expected of a man.

Secondly, it’s easy for a lot of Black men and women to celebrate Black men who seem to be progressive, successful and faithful, showing stability and security (and truly, they deserve to be recognized and celebrated). But one thing I have noticed over time is that the truest and most esteemed virtues of manhood are not the observations of a man’s actions during the good times, but how a man responds to adversity. I’ve seen many a man bolster and maintain the semblance of uprightness when things are going relatively well, but when tested by an unsuspected challenge…they fold. It’s easy for those who are not “under the gun” to use the so-called “good for nothing” brother as a example of why so many Black men are not “what they suppose to be”, but rarely do we remember that some of the brothers in the gutter were once the same ones we celebrated and bragged about in the yesteryears.

I know this much to be true, if you think America has seen terrorism so far in it’s worst form, let middle-class white males start to loose their jobs, homes and security in the same astronomical numbers as Brown and Black men…there wouldn’t be a bus, plane or any public place safe in America… A jobless and insecure white man will become unnerved, unraveled and leave or lose his family quicker than any man in America.

And please don’t try to use a statistical analysis to see how well jobless Black men fair as compared to jobless white males, because a large number of Black men have fell off the charts years ago.

My Sisters ... (of course Brothers are welcome to comment too) ... what do you mean when you tell a "man" to "be a man?" I don't know what made me just think of this, but i did.

I'm wondering how we can suggest for a man to be a man, when God made him a man. Are we any less a woman because we may not live up to the expectations of others? I know there is no single act that can take my "woman-ness" from me. So why do we sometimes suggest that a man can be less than a man? Should we challenge ourselves not to attack our Brother's very manhood? And, if there is any truth to the cliche, it takes one to know one, aren't we the last ones to be suggesting that a man isn't a man?

Just wondering what yall think ...


Hello Destee,
Glad to be here. I agree with what you said. I believe we as Women expect so much out of men. When Some are what we want and some are not. But I think it is all what we as women think a man should be. I learned from experience that if you really care for someone you should accept them for who they are because when you expect so much from him and he is not meeting your requirements we get upset and call him a bomb or a scrub cause he is not the way we want him to be.Like you said God made man. A lot of them have different qualities that we all like but we just have to be content with what we have or spend the rest of our lives being miserable trying to make a man be what we as women think a man should be... when God may not have intended him to be like we want them to be. For Gods ways and thoughts are much higher then I ...so then again you never know.

However women are not single-handedly creating hoodlums. Men contribute to this, when they leave the woman to raise their child in substandard living conditions, rather than being responsible, mature, supportive, and productive as fathers. As a result of a father's absence, a woman raises a child, not a hoodlum...who may decide on his own one day to associate himself with negative people and things to make up for that absence.


Notice, you said "Men contribute to this, when they leave the woman to raise their child"? Leave, not all men leave, many are forced out sister. As hard as it is to believe.

Anyways, I know that men leave some of the times, my point wasn't to dispute that or soley blame the woman for the way the child comes out. My point was, that most women are quick to utter the words "be a man", yet all these single women can't seem to raise a man out of a child that is right there waiting to be molded. If women knew what it takes to be a man, these boys would not be scarred by their fathers not being there, because that all-knowing woman could take up the slack. But we all know that is not the case, and that's why the father being absent is such a loss. I think we are saying the same thing, because both points show that both mother and father are needed equally, because women have a way with children that men don't. I agree with you though. Just saying what's on your mind as a woman goes a lot further than telling a man to "be a man" and trying to break that man down in the process.

Tell me this. I know of a situation where a young man was raised by both mother and father. Learning how to be a man following in his fathers footsteps. Doing all the right things to please his women out in the open, but after he has his own mind and see that he can make his own decision , he becomes abusive physically & mentally , but his father never taaught him to treat a women that way. What I am trying to say not trying to start anything, I feel that man or any person is just gonna be who they are regardless if both parents are present showing the man child how to be.Another point some men can be raised by a single parent and be the best man in the world ( so we as women may think) We have to realize nobody is perfect, everyone has there flaws. Some men don't want to work and be depended on and some want to be, etc honestly I am speaking for me and a lot of women I know personally . We still look for a knight in shining armor, a perfect man. When truly there is and there is not a perfect man . It depends on what we are content with. A rich black man that owns his own house and take care of his kids could be the perfect man to one women. Then a man who doesn't take care of his kids and does not keep a steady job could be just the opposite, But ...what a lot of women still love that man with 5 kids , and no job , nothing to call his own. In his eyes you still there so he is a man. So how could we really tell a man to be a man seriously when we as women will still be with a man that might not be perfect but you love him and thats all that matters. Stop trying to be his mother, and telling him what he should be. We as women put up with a man that is not responsible and so called dead beats etc...so if you see it from my point of view we uphold a lot of what they do, so in there eyes they might be a man. We steady telling him to be a man but we allow him to bombish. Love him , encourage him, stand by him, work together. In a relationship both female and male learn things. Have we ever thought that in a mans point of view we as women could be so much better then what we are? Whats a real women?

Right....

Whether or not a man is "perfect" depends on what the WOMAN is looking for.

Whether or not a man is "perfect" depends on what the WOMAN is looking for.
so true brother...

Every time we have these discussions it looks like we just deal with the extremes…either a “real man” is the ideal Ebony man “man of the year” and flawless, or we talk about the gangsta’, dope dealers and bums. Most Black men and women are in the middle somewhere. Even many Black entrepreneurs I know and responsible African-centered brothers are trying their best to make it in a country and economy that’s not always that stable. They have ups…downs…good years and sometime bad years. Both sexes have to bring something workable to a relationship along with self-love and a lot of love to share. Then you try to see what you have in common and what can be negotiated…and with this possible unity than you have to see if you can negotiate together through life. Along as a brother is trying to make it and he floats your ideological or spiritual boat or both…then that may be your definition of a “real man” properly defined.

Like I said, you don’t know what you got sometimes, until you have to deal with adversity. Or like my blessed grandmother (peace be upon her) use to say about life, “you got to pay for the ride, ...only the bumps are free”

Peace

SunShip

so true brother...

Every time we have these discussions it looks like we just deal with the extremes…either a “real man” is the ideal Ebony man “man of the year” and flawless, or we talk about the gangsta’, dope dealers and bums. Most Black men and women are in the middle somewhere. Even many Black entrepreneurs I know and responsible African-centered brothers are trying their best to make it in a country and economy that’s not always that stable. They have ups…downs…good years and sometime bad years. Both sexes have to bring something workable to a relationship along with self-love and a lot of love to share. Then you try to see what you have in common and what can be negotiated…and with this possible unity than you have to see if you can negotiate together through life. Along as a brother is trying to make it and he floats your ideological or spiritual boat or both…then that may be your definition of a “real man” properly defined.

Like I said, you don’t know what you got sometimes, until you have to deal with adversity. Or like my blessed grandmother (peace be upon her) use to say about life, “you got to pay for the ride, ...only the bumps are free”
The problem is, many of our youth are being given a false image of how love and relationships are supposed to be by the idiot-box and these fiction novels so many of our sistaz are reading.

It distorts thier sense of reality and they end up holding thier potential mates to ridiculously high standards.

When I say, "Be a man!", what I am saying is to NOT be a child, which means don't be immature; be a mature human being.

KWABENA

When I say, "Be a man!", what I am saying is to NOT be a child, which means don't be immature; be a mature human being.

KWABENA
lol thats funny!

Notice, you said "Men contribute to this, when they leave the woman to raise their child"? Leave, not all men leave, many are forced out sister. As hard as it is to believe.

Anyways, I know that men leave some of the times, my point wasn't to dispute that or soley blame the woman for the way the child comes out. My point was, that most women are quick to utter the words "be a man", yet all these single women can't seem to raise a man out of a child that is right there waiting to be molded. If women knew what it takes to be a man, these boys would not be scarred by their fathers not being there, because that all-knowing woman could take up the slack. But we all know that is not the case, and that's why the father being absent is such a loss. I think we are saying the same thing, because both points show that both mother and father are needed equally, because women have a way with children that men don't. I agree with you though. Just saying what's on your mind as a woman goes a lot further than telling a man to "be a man" and trying to break that man down in the process.

Though a woman can force a man out of her own personal life, she can not legally force a father out of his children's lives. Men do have legal responsibilities, but with those responsibilities come rights. Any man who isn't willing to assert himself legally for the well-being of his children is probably not too concerned in the first place. Of course, if a man knows he isn't taking care of his legal responsibilities, he probably realizes that a judge will not be as sympthetic with granting him his rights.