Without question, Black people have style. We can put outfits together, dance steps together and words together to create a unique "fashion" statement that is emulated throughout the world. These qualities seem to come easily to us and we learn them very quickly by observing, listening and practicing the various techniques. But what about our substance?

What I mean by substance are the qualities about us that go far deeper than what we wear, how we talk and how we dance. Other races of people are described for things they do as well, i.e., how to make money, good at math, good business sense, good at technology, etc.

In your words, what do you think are the sum and substance of African Americans and how do we apply it?

IMHO... we are the sum of our experiences and the substance of our past. The problem is we have be separated from both. We have a work ethic and strength equalled by no other race on this planet, as proven by our perserverence and accomplishments during and through slavery. Yet...we have started to believe (and subsequently conform to) the lazy stigma given to us by the white man because he was angry that we didn't want to work ourselves to death for free anymore.

We (and a small amount of english desendants) are the only cultures that are completely cultured by America. We don't have any roots (that we know of).
Sure we are from Africa and Jamaica, but very few of us have any of those cultural traditions left. So.....we are left as a people builiding our own "american" culture from beliefs set by whites and not explored (or challenged) by us. Thus, we are leFt swinging in the wind trying to find ourselves through materialism and/or religion (both established by the white man) and we seem to continullly come up short because we have no sense of unity, community, self-love, or free thinking.

So...to answer youR question... We are the sum and substance of slavery (because that is our legacy) and even though we carve our own paths through style, we are left empty because we won't free ourselves by thinking for ourselves and becoming a COMMUNITY OF UNSELFISH, ENLIGHTENED, AA'S, FOR THE PURPOSE OF CREATING OUR OWN SUBSTANCE

Wouldn't creativity be considered substance?

Queen, you stated in the beginning:
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"We can put outfits together, dance steps together and words together to create a unique "fashion" statement that is emulated throughout the world. These qualities seem to come easily to us and we learn them very quickly by observing..."
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Why wouldn't these qualities be of substance?

I believe we posses qualities about us that go far deeper than what we wear, how we talk and how we dance. We are definitely not monolithic by any stretch of the imagination...perhaps the sum of us is our diversity and our substance is that which makes up that diversity.

Dre', you stated that AA's are the sum and substance of slavery. You think that because we were separated from our experiences and past (I assume you mean our African experiences and past), we are left to struggle and build our own culture in America from beliefs set by whites. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think that the solution to our problem is by developing a sense of unity, community, self-love, and free thinking.

Dre', for the four elements you propose as a solution, do you see any that are more critical than the others and how would you rank order them in terms of importance? To counter the influence of the "white" culture, what do you see as the common element that would draw AA's closer together?

Keme you approach this from an economic standpoint. True, we have a tremendous amount of purchasing power and we are quick to spend each dollar we earn. But do you think this is a new phenomenon? I don't know that much about the slave-trade history but the little I do know is that some African chiefs traded his people for trinkets and shiny baubles and rum brought to them by European traders. If we could do that then, why would we want to buy products from an American Black when we can continue to trade (now dollars) with the same European manufacturers for things we value more?

Z(Mr. Positive)G :) ...yes, creativity can be considered substance. It's certainly what we are known to have and as I stated before, what is emulated worldwide. True, there is substance in how diverse we are as a people. And substance doesn't always have to be measured by its monetary value or even it's potential for such. But I ask you, without some measure of wealth potential, where has our unique substance (creative diversity) gotten us as a people? In conversations you've had with Black friends/family etc., do you think that on average, we are satisfied with our own creative potential and it's impact on our community as a whole? Particularly compared to people like Jews, Asians and middle to upper class Latinos? Surely our rewards were not meant to be received only in Heaven...or are they?

What do you all think? And, why is it that I tend to be the only woman having these conversations with you guys? :D

Queen--

I would have to say free thinking would be most important. From that we will become wise and understand that our self-esteem and unity will provide a nourturing, thriving, strong comminity.

The common element is how we are treated and sociallized in this country simply because of the color of our skin.

compared to jews, asians, and upper-class latinos I think we rank right along with them on all levels.

Queen, you asked "...without some measure of wealth potential, where has our unique substance (creative diversity) gotten us as a people?" --- It's gotten us to where we are now, and it will get us to where we would want to be. I say this to say...it appears to me that we (AAs) seem to think that we make no contributions to society at all. The same creative diversity that shapes the fashion world; the same creative diversity that shapes the arts and performing segments of society is the same creative diversity that lends itself to inventions, innovations and methodologies used throughout the world by everyone sharing this great planet. For some reason beyond my comprehension, we just don't accentuate the positive and that to me is the disservice we do to our communities.

In your second question you asked "...In conversations you've had with Black friends/family etc., do you think that on average, we are satisfied with our own creative potential and it's impact on our community as a whole? Particularly compared to people like Jews, Asians and middle to upper class Latinos?" --- I personally think we hold our own against any ethnic group. I don't see where any group has the market cornered on any one thing. The false perceptions we project on ourselves lends itself to us believing that their ice is colder than ours.

There's an active thread on "self hate" in one of the discussion categories...If we see no substance of quality in our existence and contributions to society...I think that's the ultimate form of self-hate, because imho, we have substance in abundance.

ZG---

With respect I would like to say that if you think we stack up to Jews and Asians in regard to managing finances, taking care of our own, and having some measure of power through finances and education, you have not looked at the numbers.

We make almost as much money as Asians yet they are far more in control of their own destinies , in that they seek to have independant education(separate from the school system), own businesses, employ their own, and manage theri wealth well.

We are FAR from being as wealthy as Jews. They control 75 percent of hollywood, and 60 of the music industry. We make them money with every rap and r &b CD. The only reason they have that control is they were a UNIT when they sought to take the industries over. We have yet to be a unit with a singular purpose (even in the civil rights movement).

correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading from your reply that your measuring stick for quality "substance" is financially based. Queen question was preferenced with "...without some measure of wealth potential...", which I took to mean outside of wealth...perhaps I misunderstood the question.

I'm also hearing you say that every ethnic group is a UNIT except AAs...that we have to be a unit with a "singular" purpose in order for us achieve anything of worth or purpose. We are not monolithic and never will be...neither are any other ethnic groups you care to mention. Not all asians or jews or latinos or whites think alike, so why must all AAs think along one singular mindset?

I don't get into comparing cultures here in America, because each ethnic group arrived on these shores differently...as far as what AAs are doing or not doing...I once heard someone say that the financial struggles of AAs in this country can be put into an analogy of a monopoly game. Imagine playing a game of monopoly and you're the only player with no money. Every move you make you end up owing someone and owning nuthin'. That's how we started out here.

Okay, I see where you all are coming from but I don't have time to respond cause they are working a sista hard today. *lol* But I'll be back and ZG, do you wear glasses? "Cause if you do, I want the same kind of lenses you look at the world through. I like the way you think, but it does cause me to question why so many threads posted here appear to me to be incongruent with your extremely positive perspective. Don't change!

ZG---

You know what??? I think we both misunderstood. Queen...if i'm correct...was asking where has our substance got us (since we don't have any wealth potential). Then...I misunderstood your reponse because you were saying that we can measure up with any race when it comes to 'substance' meaning our creativity, style, and contributions to the world. Well...I believe you are correct. We to contribute a lot to the world in terms or creativity (jazz, rock and roll, blues, black art, spoken word, rap, r & B, and other things). My point is...with all of this greatness...why are we not farther along in our power to control our community( crime, drugs, poverty, poor health, lack of spirtuality, lack of knowledge)?

I agree with you in terms of us not having to all think alike. But...I submit we do not have to all think alike for us to all work towards unity and the betterment of our communities. In fact, we need for people think differently in order for us to be diverse and take on different roles .

What cha think?

I think we found that common ground that we both can come to an understanding. I really like the way you think and challenge AAs to think and look for alternative ways in approaching solutions. I commend you on what you said you are instilling in your son...we all should be about becomin more self-reliant.

Dre you said "...But...I submit we do not have to all think alike for us to all work towards unity and the betterment of our communities". Your comment I think is the core of our adhesiveness, yet it can be argued that, that simple idealogy eludes us. That summed up my diatribe in it's simplest form. Basically, that's all I was trying to convey.

I was not only speaking of our creativity in terms of the arts and entertainment, I was saying that same creativity that we apply to those thing are applied to other disciplines as well. If you look deeper, it will reveal itself. Overall, we share the same passion, which shows that what you said is live and well :) It's always a pleasure sharing idealogies with you, not only are you respectful in your delivery, but you offer great insight as well.

Dre', I think you're right. I think you did misunderstand my original post and that's probably because I didn't make myself very clear. I apologize for that. As much as I don't like to admit this, Keme came close to the point I wanted to discuss--economic power.

ZG...you wrote:

"Queen, you asked "...without some measure of wealth potential, where has our unique substance (creative diversity) gotten us as a people?" --- It's gotten us to where we are now, and it will get us to where we would want to be. I say this to say...it appears to me that we (AAs) seem to think that we make no contributions to society at all.

First, I hope I didn't give you the impression that I don't believe that AA's have made any contributions to this society. By no means do I believe that and I know all too well that we have and continue to. See, I'm with you on that! *smile*

You wrote that our creative diversity "has gotten us where we are now and it will get us to where we would want to be." I can't disagree that we are where we are and will be where we end up based on who we are and what we do. But I'm not sure that I think where we are or where we wind up as a people will necessarily be where we want to be, particularly if we don't do some things differently today. Was I clear on this point? *lol*

I asked you, " In conversations you've had with Black friends/family etc., do you think that on average, we are satisfied with our own creative potential and it's impact on our community as a whole? Particularly compared to people like Jews, Asians and middle to upper class Latinos?"

You wrote, "I don't get into comparing cultures here in America, because each ethnic group arrived on these shores differently...as far as what AAs are doing or not doing...I once heard someone say that the financial struggles of AAs in this country can be put into an analogy of a monopoly game. Imagine playing a game of monopoly and you're the only player with no money. Every move you make you end up owing someone and owning nuthin'. That's how we started out here."

I can understand your reasons for not wanting to compare AA's with people of other cultures. It's true, we were dragged over here to this country against our will. Europeans tried enslaving Mexicans and they said to heck with that and crossed the border. The indigenous natives, succumbed to white diseases and greed and were placed in the equivalent of horse corralls spread across the nation.

We live in a land of haves and have nots and the differences aren't hidden. Alone, on average, we are at a financial disadvantage. But collectively as consumers, we can be an economic influence. I don't see making comparisons as a bad thing in some circumstances. Otherwise, how will we ever learn about each other and grow to our fullest potential if we're always focused only on ourselves? (MHO)

My purpose of this thread is not to tear down the AA or our community. I'm sure you can tell by now that I loves my peoples! *smile* I just want to keep the positive dialogue about us out in the front of a lot of these discussions because we often are bombarded with the negative. So let's discuss how great we are and what contibutions we make to this society and the world community OTHER THAN sports, music and our unique stylishness. Let's identify the sum and substance of us.

If we all can agree that AA's have more in their favor and to their credit than just that, then why are those of us who know that countering the negative publicity with such positive publicity? Why can't we convey those messages in the movie scripts, the news media, the advertising, etc.?

My point of discussion is, if AA's are doing so good, then why do most of our people feel so bad? Why isn't this information penetrating from the wealthiest among us down to the grassroot population of AA's? And if we don't like how we feel, do we have the capacity to change it by doing things other than dressing nice, talking hip and demonstrating the latest dance steps? (rhetorical question)

On a basic human level do you agree that in a capitalistic, free enterprise system, money is assigned a certain amount of power by giving an owner of money freedom to purchase goods and services at a rate determined by their wealth (or accumulation of money)? The more money you have, the more G/S you can buy and vice versa...

If you agree then let me ask you. In a worldly sense, how many of the problems experienced in the AA community today do you think can be solved or influenced by money?

Poverty? Education? Unemployment? Healthcare? Retirement? Housing? Just to name a few...could any of these?

Is it too naive of me to suggest that AA's have the ability to redistribute their wealth to the extent that they can use it to influence their current economic condition and thereby, resolving some of their community problems? But it would require a change.

What do you think? (Whew, a sister's fingers are tired! lol)

I guess I missed that focus (economic power) all together.

Queen you wrote:
"...I don't see making comparisons as a bad thing in some circumstances. Otherwise, how will we ever learn about each other and grow to our fullest potential if we're always focused only on ourselves? (MHO)" --- I agree with you that making comparisons are not a bad thing in some circumstances, I just don't get into comparing cultures because cultures differ and circumstances are not the same.

Queen:
"...My purpose of this thread is not to tear down the AA or our community. I'm sure you can tell by now that I loves my peoples! *smile* I just want to keep the positive dialogue about us out in the front of a lot of these discussions because we often are bombarded with the negative. So let's discuss how great we are and what contibutions we make to this society and the world community OTHER THAN sports, music and our unique stylishness. Let's identify the sum and substance of us. " --- Yes, I've felt your passion for AAs...I know you "loves" us :) You're right, we are bombarded with negativity all the time. In my opening responses to this thread, I alluded to contributions we make to this society and the world...and I didn't mention sports, music or styles.

Queen:
"...My point of discussion is, if AA's are doing so good, then why do most of our people feel so bad? Why isn't this information penetrating from the wealthiest among us down to the grassroot population of AA's? And if we don't like how we feel, do we have the capacity to change it by doing things other than dressing nice, talking hip and demonstrating the latest dance steps? (rhetorical question) " --- Most of our people feel so bad? Please elaborate more on the "feel so bad" part. Whew! I'm glad that second part was a rhetorical question :D

Queen:
"...If you agree then let me ask you. In a worldly sense, how many of the problems experienced in the AA community today do you think can be solved or influenced by money?

Poverty? Education? Unemployment? Healthcare? Retirement? Housing? Just to name a few...could any of these? " --- I don't think any of them can be solved solely by money, but money can influence perhaps the behavorial change that I think is required to reach resolution.

oops...as soon as I scrolled down to capture your next point, I realized that you answered the question above :) ... I concur.

Thanks ZG---

The feeling is mutual.

Queen: Is it too naive of me to suggest that AA's have the ability to redistribute their wealth to the extent that they can use it to influence their current economic condition and thereby, resolving some of their community problems? But it would require a change.

It is not naive at all. It is (at this time) unrealistic, because even though we have the ablility we don't have the desire. That is mostly because we (our wealthy and educated) don't understand that by distributing the wealth and helpling others it would facilitate them getting more...not take away from what they have.

I will address this in a separate post entitled ' Have You Ever Heard of the Boule?" check it out.

ZG: "Please elaborate more on the "feel so bad" part."

I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am and I'm usually a very optimistic person. But, what I meant by that statement was that as I surf the various threads here, chat with e-friends, talk to my other AA friends where I work and live, engage in panel discussions in my community and at work, facilitate AA discussion groups, listen to AA ministers in pulpits preaching, watch and listen to people around me, on tv, read articles in magazines, there always is a common theme that can be found as part of the conversation among all these various arenas...the problem in the AA community... and... it's SELDOM (I won't be presumptuous to say NEVER) is positive discussion.

This is my perception. Now, in my view, that conversation reflects a bad feeling among us. How often do I hear conversations on a daily basis about the positive aspects happening among AA's? How often do I hear us praising our gains except around MLK, Jr. Day or during Black History Month? (Wow, a whole month). SELDOM!

Ok, it's still around full moon time so maybe my outlook will improve later this month! *lol*

that I try to accentuate the positive; we have enough of gloom and doom being spreaded around so much until we get swallowed up in it.

What is your response to this attitude or feeling about our community? What do you say to those that feel this way? If you were to give a "State of the Black Community" address...how would you describe it? What focus would you emphasize?

(Ok Queen...I passing you a soapbox to stand on... :x: ) lol

LOL...

This system is tripping. I just wrote a response to your question ZG and it suddenly disappeared. :maddd: But that's ok, it was probably starting to get too long anyway. lol

So, in summary, to answer your question, I think that, overall, the AA community is thriving and productive. We're more educated, we're spreading throughout the workforce from unskilled trades to executive level positions, we continue to be active in politics, in our community churches and social organizations, we're more health conscious and aware, there does exist a sense of unity among us in how we celebrate the more prominent AA heroes and heroines nationwide and we continue to believe in the institution of marriage and traditional family values. We are the product of our experiences and out of those experiences came a people that has strength to persevere through a history of hard and difficult times. AA's are a people with the phenomenal ability to take lemons and turn them into lemonade.

Cheers! :toast:

I love lemonade :)

That's the way I see it....so what's the problem? lol ...why are we so sad? *smile*

Cheers! :toast:

You are workin' a sista!!!! LOL

I didn't say I WAS SAD...I was referring to the tone of most of the threads and discussion that takes place here at this forum, man! LOL You put me through all that 'cause you thought I was sad? It's not possible for me to be sad 'cause my medication doesn't allow it! :D

Ok...j/k about the meds!! *lol*

Now I'm going to meditate in a quiet place with a glass of fresh lemonade!

;)

we need to learn how to undo the damage from slavery. yes, no one wants to admit it but many of us are still trapped. We have greed and envy which tops our priorities and shadows our true abilities. we have been taught not to committ to anything, even ourselves. Many of us have some serious undoing.

Queen:

LOL! I know YOU aren't sad :) that's why I offered to get you a soapbox....if I had thought you were the one feeling sad I would have offered you a "couch" so you could relax as you tell your troubles LOL!

I understood you Sis...loud and clear :)

substance is not the value of your bank account, but the value of the life we lead. yes, we are the product of slavery. truthfully speaking african americans changed religion to include our rythmical nature.we brong the gospel. we influnced the music that changes the cultures of other nations. yes, some african americans prefer clothes to savings accounts.but you don't judge a book by reading only one page. there is substance oozing from this descusion. i would say substance is a combination of style and life. african americans cornered the market on substance.

jaemary, you are absolutely correct when you wrote: "substance is not the value of your bank account, but the value of the life we lead." That's exactly the point that I wanted us to address in this thread...what type of life are we, as African Americans, leading that is more than just clothes, music and sports? Can you elaborate more on what you meant when you wrote: "i would say substance is a combination of style and life. african americans cornered the market on substance?" Can you give examples?

:)

These days people tend to want style and have little or no substance. People are caught up on the social status thing, who you with, what you wearing, etc. People seem to have no creativity. Look at a lot of rap music these days. The same beats are recycled, nothing more than a base line and a melody, and verbal part is about women, money, and/or material things. Not like the days of Earth Wind and Fire when the music was very melodic. Some fail to see that styles come and go, like a fad. Substance is something you cannot put a value on, good credit, education, health, etc. A good education will go a long way compared to that platinum chain and those 24 inch rims on your car. Unfortunately people want to be accepted, be part of the in-crowd, instead of just being an individual. Just like peer pressure when you was a teen, maybe you donot want to do something but everybody else is.

Thumbs up to you! I agree with your opinion, it was stated very well. Style is a driven by whimsical ideas--it comes and it goes. It's interesting that you wrote: "Substance is something you cannot put a value on..." but you define it as tangible things, such as "good credit, education, health, etc." You don't think that some value (including monetary) can be placed on these things? After all, don't you think that good credit, education and, to some degree, health can be purchased?

What do you think?

In my opinion style is an tangible, but I donot consider things like good credit, health, and education as tangibles. You really can not put a value on those. You can spend top dollar on health treatment. Although if you do not take care of yourself, (somking, alcoholic, drug abuser), all the health care will be negated due to your poor health choices.


Furthermore, there is a saying, donot just get a degree , get an education. You can go to the most prestigious university but if you do not handle business, you are in trouble. A lot of people try to major in the computer field because they heard they would make a lot of money when they graduated. True enough you can make a lot of money, but having money as your motivation is a sure path to failure. I have seen and heard people majoring in computers and not knowing anything. A good education will help you be successful no matter what your major is.

Having money can make things better, but then people have to take initialtives also.