The following is a collection of excerpts from a much larger work concerning the affects of religion in curbing bad behavior. Large portions have been omitted to give the reader just a general idea.

************************************************** **********

African American belief in God is unequivocally positive. An overwhelming number of African-Americans identify themselves as Christian and in a poll conducted by the Barna Research Group; the top-rated goal selected by 94 percent of African-Americans when asked to identify their goals in life was "to have a close, personal relationship with God", surpassing even choices of good health and comfort, which ranks significantly higher than either whites or Hispanics.

Church is also important in African America with nearly 50 percent of African-Americans attending church on a given Sunday, which is about 5 percent to 10 percent higher than the national standard. In addition, 83 percent of African-Americans say their religious faith is very important in their lives compared to 68 percent of whites.

The International Social Survey Program received 62 percent favorable response to the question; "I know God exists and have no doubts about it," in the white community, whereas nearly 90 percent of Africans American responded favorably. In fact, 82 percent of African Americans believe that God is "the all powerful, all-knowing, perfect creator who rules the world today."

Statistics for praying and reading the Bible also vary widely as 94 percent of African Americans reported praying regularly compared to the national average of 77 percent and were twice as likely compared to other Americans to have read from the Bible in the past week. The national average for Bible readership is 31 percent. Research also showed that blacks are more likely to believe the Bible is totally accurate 64-41 percent compared to whites showing a considerable gap in those who believe the Bible to be inerrant.

Not only are African Americans more likely to believe in God, they are also more likely to believe their prayers are answered and in times of crisis 92 percent of African-Americans are "absolutely certain" they can count on God to answer their prayers, which is substantially more than whites or Hispanics.

However, that actions speak louder than words is a truism meaning that what one does often overshadows what one says. That we often do not 'practice what we preach' is another truism that has its roots in the observance of how belief and behavior are often at odds with one another.

Normally, the difference is not worth commenting on except when it is made a key element or differentiator among groups and individuals. When we claim to follow a higher standard that differentiates us from the rest of common humanity, then we are expected to live up to that higher standard and we will be judged at that higher standard without the benefit of mercy.

Christianity and Christian education is viewed by a vast majority of Americans as being able to solve many of the problems of American society. However, it appears that this view of Christianity may largely be a case of "preaching to the choir" as more than 85 percent of the United States all ready claims to be Christian. Simplistic, one-dimensional thinking invites interpolation to say it is the remaining 15 percent who are the problem, but a closer examination shows that the real problem may be closer to home.

Following the thinking that if 85 percent of the country identify themselves as Christian then it must it must follow that the other 15 percent is causing all the problems we are experiencing in this country, it seems that the cause of the problems has been identified. Of course, this is ridiculous and for a variety of reasons and foremost among them is that it shows an improper correlation. For instance, 90 percent of state and federal penitentiary inmates identify themselves as Christian but to say that Christians are the root of crime is just as ludicrous.

Although the number in the black community claiming Christianity is even higher than the national standard, it is readily apparent that in both the white and black communities there is much lip service paid to moral living as the figures do not bear out the success of religion or anything else as being effective in curbing bad behavior.

George Gallup Jr., son of the founder of the Gallup organization saw the trend in 1995 when he said, "While religion is highly popular in this country, survey evidence suggests that it does not change people's lives to the degree one would expect from the level of professed faith."

A close look at professed faith and actual behavior reveals a clear disparity between the two that shows that religion has little to no behavioral effect on the majority of the nation as a whole as well as in the black community showing that there is a significant gap between believing and behaving.

In the black community, the incidence of crime, illegal drug use, alcoholism, illegitimate births and lesser social bad behavior has remained constant despite the high degree of Christianity. There are a variety of reasons for this discrepancy including living conditions, poverty and social stigmatization.

. . . As much as Americans like to blame teenagers for a variety of social ills, in reality we find that when we point a finger that at least three of them are pointing back at us and that's because in reality-adults are the source of many of our problems. For instance, 80 percent of the children born out of wedlock are born to women over 20 years old, with almost half born to mothers between 20 and 29. The same statistics hold true for abortion with less than 20 percent going to females under 20 years old. Even the rate of sexually transmitted disease is significantly higher among adults.

Official views of premarital sex are largely hypocritical as moral conservatives are quick to condemn it as long as it involves teenagers, but the moral police are not so vociferous when it comes to premarital sex between "consenting" adults. More than half of Americans believe that it is not wrong for adults to engage in premarital sex, while nearly 75 percent believe it is wrong for teenagers to do so. Teens seem to catch the brunt of the criticism for behavior that is not only common among adults but also is accepted and is even depicted as acceptable in regular television programming and movies. In other words we have adopted a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude regarding sexual behavior.

The subject barely crosses the lips of the clergy who now seem to turn a blind eye to adult behavior of this type and maybe with good reason. A survey of Southern Baptist pastors by the Journal of Pastoral Care said that 14 percent of the pastors surveyed admitted to engaging in inappropriate sexual behavior. The same pastors reported that they had counseled at least one woman who reported having intercourse with another minister.

If the recent "love child" scandal involving the Rev. Jesse Jackson is any indicator, it is clear that not even the clergy are not immune to the whims of human behavior. In fact, a 1997 Newsweek article pointed out that various surveys show that as many as 30 percent of male Protestant ministers have had sexual intercourse with women other than their wives. A survey of Protestant clergy by Leadership Magazine found that 12 percent admitted to sexual intercourse outside of marriage and that 23 percent reported doing something sexually inappropriate with some one not their spouse. The same researchers also interviewed a thousand Leadership subscribers and 45 percent admitted to sexually inappropriate behavior and 23 percent to extramarital intercourse.

A 1992 survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago showed that 90 percent of the men and 94 percent of the women surveyed felt that extramarital sex was wrong. However, out of this same group 25 percent of the men and 17 percent of the women had been unfaithful. Obviously, there is a double standard in place or-blinders.

To add more fuel to the morality fire a 1997 Associated Press survey showed that 22 percent of married men and 14 percent of married women have strayed at least once during their marriage. The poll also showed that there is no appreciable difference in infidelity rates between women or men. Still, 90 percent of Americans believe that adultery is morally wrong.

Although divorce rates have remained stable in the United States, one out two marriages still end in divorce which has a destabilizing affect on families, birthrates and even sexual behavior. Still, it is strange that in an overwhelmingly Christian country Christians are more likely to get divorced than other religions. Nationally, 27 percent of Baptists have been divorced. The number is even higher among non-denominational Christians at 34 percent. Atheists and agnostics had the lowest rate overall at 21 percent.

Increasingly marriage rates are down and birthrates are up. The major increases in the never-married population have occurred among blacks. Between 1975 and 1999, the percentage of blacks that have never been married increased from 32 percent to 44 percent. The percentage of blacks who are married declined from over 42 percent in 1975 to 32 percent in 1999. Nearly 23 percent of African American households are now headed by women with children.

The number of births to unmarried women came to an annual total of 1.3 million in 1999 of which more than half were born to women over 20 with the highest increase among African American women between 20-29. While it seems Americans may wink their eye at premarital sex between adults nearly 39 percent of nonmarital births are due to an increased amount of "shacking up" among unmarried couples, which is 10 percent increase over years earlier.

. . . Approximately 11 million people use marijuana on a regular basis and almost 2 million use cocaine regularly with African Americans constituting 15 percent of current U.S. drug users and 15 percent of cocaine users. According to ASAP Family: Drug and Alcohol Statistics, 10 percent of all workers have an alcohol problem and 6 percent of all workers have a drug problem. Currently, the illegal drug industry ranks in size with Mobil Oil as our second largest business-only Exxon is larger making cocaine our leading cash flow drug at 26-32 billion per year.

Basically, this is just a brief surface brush as I have left out figures for gambling, prostitution, users of prostitutes, pornography, lying, cheating and stealing among other social crimes. In my book, I go into each of these categories and tell who is doing it and their ties to religion. The research I've done so far shows nothing more than human beings being human beings. However, this in no way absolves either the religionists, believers or nonbeliever of their transgressions, it simply points out that religion hasn't had much affect in curbing the excessive behavior of humanity and that there is no logical reason to assume that more religion will make a difference.

Ra,

now you know we've had many good conversations on such and i have read all of your columns. i was actually sitting back awaiting for you to come full circle and post a subject that i couldnot stay silent on. well, you found one. :lol: i have read a lot of the resaearch material you discussed in this particular subject area because i wrote an ethical papaer on adultery. i may share it her by posting it sepaqrately, but as for my response to this forum i shall rest and reread your column for there are specific points that i want to speak on.

continued soon...

This is one of those topics that is just so fascinating, not because of writing about it, but in doing the research. It would seem that there is a major slip between the cup and the lip when it comes to behavior. Oh, heck lets fuel the fire even further and say "it appears that a few beams must be removed before taking the mote from others eyes." D--you know I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Ra

Ra,

i am really going to enjoy this one but listen i wanted to post an ethical papr i wrote pertaining adultery. you will find most of the same research you used. i'm certian that both forums will provide interesting insight to the readers. let me know if its okay to post here in your column area or should i post it somewhere else?

D--Bring it here so we all can see it!

Brother, this is a thought provoker. So what I'm going to do is "inner sit" on your piece then i'll reply. thanks for the mental exercise. I'll be back.

one love,blak

Your have done your homework....But might I add that in this day in time evryone who says they are a Christian are not really Christians. Christianity has become a popular label for people today and everyone wishes to wear it. However many do not understand it. The word christian means to be Christ-like, although in the early church at Antioch it was used as a form of mockery for those who followed Christ, yet the Christians wore it as a badge of honor and did not mind suffering mockery and shame for the sake of Christ. Now over 2000 years later everyone wants to wear that title, and while on the surface it seems great, we must understand that a title doesn't mean anything...It's the lifestyle that the person lives. The bible states that we are living epistles read of men. The way we live our lives determines if we are really Christians. Unfortunately those who have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof, are making the life of Christianity seem like a joke. However we cannot discount the role of the christian or the church because of the actions of some. We all must stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give an account of evry deed done in our mortal bodies. Just as society wants to stereotype african americans by saying we all like bbq, we all are athletic, we all can dance, or all of our young men are either dead or behind bars...We cannot allow this way of thinking to discredit our race, neither can we allow this way of thinking to discredit the value of Christianity. First of all Christianity is not a religion, it's a way of life.....A religion is something that is done out of habit, but we as True Christians have something deeper motivating us to live the life or righteousness, I often say everyone wants to be a Christian, but very few wants to live saved. I love this piece you put together, and I'm interested in seeing the feedback on this one.......Especially from Dnommo.




Bishop

http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=1371

here's the paper Ra, i got a column for now. i didnt post it here because it was way too long and i wented others to not be discouraged by the length. read respond and i shll post here tomorrow...

You are so right. I've researched this book for more than a year and I found so many interesting things. For instance, a majority of people hold that the Bible has the answers to humanities problems today, but of that majority more than 60 percent said they had never read the Bible. It seems there are many who just latch on and have no idea of what they are latching on to.

I found the same thing for atheism. I researched several large databases that listed belief and race. I contacted many "black atheists" who later "blessed me out" because they were Christians--they didn't really no what an atheist was.

I had Pentacostals, Jehovah Witnesses and even Baptists who didn't know they were Christians. You are so right. Many just join the club by claiming a name and are in fact not really a part even though they claim to be.

Ra

Check out dnommo at
http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=1371. There is some good information there Read it and then come back and get in the discussion.

Ra

my answer is of course not.
religion CAN'T work. i agree with Bishop concerning the "titles" people wear pendulously. they mean nothing just as someone putting a shrimp label on a lobster tank, and yeah, that has happened :lol:

while i can agree with you on the FACTS within statistics, however i differ with many who think that Christianity holds ANY power to create, change, and empower anything;
it is the power that Christ gives to Christianity the
"christian people" have not used, misused, or don't even possess.

so does religion work?? no. Christ does.
dnommo laid down some sharp references for us to review.
i will come later with references.

Amun-Ra this was outstanding bruh, keep it up.

knew you would come 'here' again, Ra. I appreciate the copious amount of research given to this topic. I, however, have come to disdain the term 'religion' or 'religious'. Most of us get up and go to work, 'religiously'. It connotes only habit or routine. I am more inclined to embrace what I've come to understand as 'spirituality'. And THAT speaks of the most powerful ingredient, "a relationship with Christ". Bishop & J'hiah speak well about this. There are many who claim to be Christians, but exhibit none of the characteristics of Christ. And, MANY of these folk are IN THE CHURCH. Those of us who believe Bible prophecy, believe this to be one of the signposts of where we are in earth's history. The end times. The wheat will grow together with the tares...The Lord will do the sifting. We also understand that, according to the Bible, men and women will be given over to strong delusions to believe a lie, leaning unto their own understanding. All of the great minds and the great philosophers throughout time have examined, searched for, or tried to disprove the existence and/or the power of Jehovah God...many have problems understanding why there needed to be a blood sacrifice for our salvation.

I submit, that spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

I anxiously await the writings, papers, and dissertations forthcoming from you and Dnnomo.

peace to you all

A

This is where the dilemma lies. One thing my research has brought to my attention is that there is considerable distance among believers when it comes to Christianity. I was aware that Protestantism had varying divisions such as Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans etc., but I had no idea that worldwide there are more than 10,000 different Christian groups not counting Catholics who are divided into Eastern Orthodox and Roman.

All of you have hit around this in some way because of differences in "Christ" theology, which does not seem to be the same from one religion to another and is definitely different among individuals. You are certainly right in pointing out that many who claim the cloth probably do a disservice to it, but they are also thinking the same of those who do not believe as they do.

Another interesting piece of data that came out of ths research is the number of Christians in Africa, especially considering that in 1900 nearly 100 percent of Sub-Saharan Africa followed indigenous tribal religions, but now 100 years later nearly 325,000,000 continental Africans are Christians and are located mostly in Sub-Saharan Africa while Northern Africa is dominated by Muslims (about 315,000,000).

A strange tidbit I found was that among many white fundamentalists anyone who is not "born again" is not considered a true Christian. I hadn't ever given Christianity much thought along that type of divisional line, but my research showed me that in the eyes of some self-identified Christians, not all Christians are the same nor or they a particularly respecting of each others beliefs.

Amun-ra you have opened a much needed can of worms here,

Now if we look at the many cultures, religions and beliefs, we will find that the most divisive and genocidal belief is that of Christianity. Why? Because the consensus is that if one group of Christians does not believe what we believe then they are not welcome into what is believed to be truth. On almost every corner in America you will find churches sitting across from each other: Missionary Baptist on one side, Full Gospel Baptist on the other, Catholic on the left and Methodist on the right while in the center are the drug dealers, addicts, thieves and every criminal possibility around. This goes against what true Christianity is: to love people that way Christ loved us. To go out and share the good news with those who have not heard.

Before I go any further I want to clear up something. First, we are talking about Christology in this thread because Theology is the study of God’s way, which is not in question here. It is safe to say that the majority of the world believes there is a GOD and most of them call out to HIM in some form or manner. The Islamic religion believes in ALLAH, the Arabic name for GOD. Christians believe in JEHOVAH, the Hebrew name for GOD and a whole assortment of different names. But what is in question here is how Christians who study the beliefs of Christ are so hypocritical in their stance, especially in the African American realm. Well, the reason being is that every generation since Christ walked the Earth, our society has taken a softer stance on basic biblical principles of life. Now 2000 years later, the stance is so soft that it is no longer important. In the time of Christ, committing a crime meant being crucified stoned impaled or whatever tactic used to cause death. Today, it means jail time and in some situations a slap on the wrist. It comes from not abiding by what the bible instructs us for living in this world. We will wear the WWJD wristbands as we walk past the needy, helpless, sick on our way to our girlfriend’s house while taking the wedding band off. It comes down to punishment of the deed. The right punishment instills greater discipline. No punishment, no discipline.

Now on the subject of practice what we preach. It is hard to practice this if we don't live it in our lives. Christianity requires a higher level of integrity for once you label yourself as such that means you cannot do what you used to do. Sin should bring forth a level of conviction so great that stepping into that place would cause great pain and yet Theologians (Luther, Aquinas, Kierkegaard, Tillich, Stoic, Socrates, and many more) have taken so much time into study the truth in the bible that they have created a level of confusion in the body of Christ. Then with a new era of more highly educated preachers, the level of preaching today is working not only to educate the believer but to help them clear up some generational beliefs about Christ that are not even written in the Bible.

Unending grace had given Christians a license to continue committing sin and immoral acts because they know that "God will forgive them" but the word tells us that after salvation any sin commit will receive a greater punishment. This is due to the fact that we are aware of right and wrong in Christ whereas before we were considered ignorant of HIS ways. This concept of "greater punishment" is never talked about and never embraced because it leaves an open door policy for anyone who doesn't feel like following Christ today. The level of discipline, coupled with accountability, is needed in order for us to "practice what we preach".

Religion in itself will not change the lives of anyone for religion is simply the devotion and discipline to follow something. People watching television all day long because they know nothing else to do is religion. The love of flashy items is religion. The desire to follow Christ teachings is religion, but the true change in one's life comes from the discipline. The discipline to know what is needed and to abide in it. The discipline to read the bible and follow its ways. The discipline to prayer and a "mustard seed" faith system will create change. Anything less will create anarchy.

Watchman Nee once spoke of a process in Christians called brokenness, which is the breaking down of one’s, will in order to allow GOD to fully work in our lives. This means to do away with out thinking and seeking GOD in a way that nothing can come between you and him. This is a hard place to be and the majority of the Body of Christ has never experienced this process. This lack of brokenness if the reason for the gap between believing and behaving.

Ra, I am in the process of finding any statistics relating the levels of crime and disparity in the black community to the degree of faith based living in the home. Although many can say that it even happens in the homes of religious leaders, one must ask how strong is their faith and how well do they stand on the scripture that says, "as for me and my house we shall worship the LORD." Housecleaning must be done before going out to offer a cleaning service to someone else.

Now, pertaining to Jesse Jackson and the fact that clergy are not immune to human behavior...

Just because they are in ministry does not mean that they are not tempted. I find it unfortunate that, at many times when I have been in the pulpit and assisting leaders, people of both sexes have no problem trying to tempt the men and women of GOD. Many times have I seen pastors have ushers to bring cloths to the ladies on the front pew because one in particular is fanning her legs at the pastor and winking at him. I have seen people who come up for prayer attempt to fondle the man or woman of GOD. There are certain things that can be done to avoid this but it takes an understanding that the leaders and human also and tempting them should not occur. But, it comes down to believing "if I marry a preacher then I get a free pass into heaven". It doesn't work like that. We all have our own particular walk with GOD. It is specific for us and us only and in the midst of that walk we are faced with the perils of society, the politics of the world and keeping our family in a place of safety from it.

Christianity is not a label you can buy on a wristband or a T-shirt. It's not gold cross-worn around the neck nor a tattoo on the arm. It is a way of life, a discipline that all should strive for but very few seek. Instead of preaching about how we are going to go to hell if we don't do what is right, we must teach the right way to live. Move away from the emotional side of religion and get down to the practical side for Christianity is with us no matter where we go. Wearing it like a badge of honor is actually a way of avoiding the issue without realizing that bringing self-promotions of your religious beliefs can at most times backfire if you don't walk in the true teachings of Christ. It can bring you an unnecessary amount of criticism and suffering because of it. We must walk in integrity and in complete submission to GOD.

A greater testimony is not the battles you've won but the discipline you've acquired. When someone sees you can't be moved then this is when CHRIST, GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT gets the true glory. This reminds me of a testimony someone spoke to me. They were troubled about evangelizing to a group of addicts and ex-cons. They said they didn't know what to tell them because they followed CHRIST so diligently that they have rarely gone through what the people went through. They were never faced with such temptations. I told them that that is there testimony and to share it....

I look forward to your next can of worms my friend.

Amun! This topic is great, and I am in agreement with the scibes on the page...and allow me to reiterate what the others have already said....Christianity is not a religion but a way of life. The Bible says ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free, the reason many folks in the church don't practice what they preach is because many of them don't know the truth. I'm not simply talking about knowing it in terms of having heard the truth and applying it, but I'm talking about the intimate meaning of the word "know". We must "know" the truth and that truth being Christ, therefore in order to live according to the way the Bible tells us to is that we must have a intimate relationship with Christ. Whom the son has set free is free indeed, but if you don't know the son, if you have not developed a relationship with the son , then you cannot enjoy the benefits of being set free by the son. The reason why so many "Christians" are not living up to what the bible says is simpy THEY DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH. when you know the truth then you are guided by the truth, but in not knowing the truth you are blinded...The scripture says that the God of this world has blinded the minds of the people. Satan desires to keep folks in darkness. He doesn't care if you wear the label of Christian, he just doesn't want you to live the life, and allow me to say this he goes to CHURCH AS WELL, and his role? To cause confusion, division, to tempt us to do those very things that you are talking about in your column....NO!! RELIGION DOES NOT WORK!!!! but living the life of righteousness DOES!!!

I think that all would agree that because we call ourselves something does not not make it so. The point has been made the "Christianity" is a way of life and for those who have been steeped in Christian dogma this is unequivocal and those who truly follow whatever belief they favor (Christianity, Islam or Hinduism) there seems to be a core or "practicing" followers. By practicing, I mean those who consciously try to live their lives according to those tennants.

Punishment has been mentioned as a necessary element of some aspects of Christianity and normally consequences should always be considered in anything we do. However, coercion of any type makes the goals suspect. Example: If I do right because I want to go to heaven and not go to hell, then it seems that I have been intellectually dishonest because I submitted to coercion. Or, to do right because of fear of punishment at all is another form of coercion. To even do right because it will make God angry is another form of coercion.

To me, it seems that doing the right thing is not about going to heaven or avoiding hell or not pissing God off, it is about "doing the right thing" because it is the right thing to do PERIOD. Let's stir this pot a little further.

Do we need God to be moral? Christianity is the number one religion in the world with almost 2 billion adherents. Now, here comes the curve, depending upon which source you use nonbelief is second with with almost 1.4 billion. Others list Islam as second with 1.3, but as you can see nonbelief ranks very high. Hinduism comes in either third or fourth depending upon the source.

Among those 1.4 billion nonbelievers there are sure to be some good people. They have no God. Why are they moral? Or can they be considered to be moral without God? So far, it seems to come down to the individual and their willingness to "do the right thing" regardless of what their beliefs may be.

Here's another intersting tidbit I got from the Barna Research Group. More than 90 percent of African Americans they surveyed believed the Bible to be 100 percent accurate, including the Genisis account of creation, while white America weighed in a less than 65 percent. What do you make of that?

Ra

stirring the pot

Ra,

man you sure know how to keep me in this room huh?

Here's another intersting tidbit I got from the Barna Research Group. More than 90 percent of African Americans they surveyed believed the Bible to be 100 percent accurate, including the Genisis account of creation, while white America weighed in a less than 65 percent. What do you make of that?

well, let me just say that the reason most African Americans believe the bible to be 100% accurate and ture is becuase that is what they have been brought up to belive. I strongly feel that if this is the basis of their fatih system then they should follor through on that but when the knowledge to learn more comes into play, sometimes it becomes a wedge and not a bridge to understanding.

The Genesis story in particular has been argued by many from religious leaders to scientist and it wasn't until recently that both have begun to arrive at some sort of agreement on the matter. It is a work in progress but it is a close work.

the difference percentage wise i would say comes from knowledge. Whites in this matter seek to get to the bottom of any situation. They don't follow the concept of blind faith. Evan after a miraculous event occurs in theior lives they still seek to want to know more. Knowing more cane create questions left unanswered. Thomas Aquinas suffered this problem during his youth for when he read the bible and was told by the priest that GOD was a loving, gracious GOD, Aquinas wanted to know how this could be. After reading the old Testament, all that Aquinas saw was a GOD of wrath and death not one of grace and mercy so he began to look deeper. One question drew him to look further. The fact that the priest could not answer him made him hungry for more.

African Americans for a long time were not given the access to such knowledge. True theologians of such nature have not been commonplace in this community. The concept of such is a preacher and that's it. But now becaus eof higher education available to blacks, the concept of gaining a deeper knowledge of the word is available. BUT professing that deeper knowledge creates a fear. A fear that too much information will cause the pastor to lofe his congregation. To discover that certain concepts and verbage that was misquoted so long ago IS NOT in the bible can cause so dissention. I think they the fact that so many believe 100% in the bible and yet don't live it comes from the need to belive in something. When a miracle occurs in their life whom should they give the credit too?

I don't delve into the disparages between blacks and whites because int he church there is a major difference. The style of preaching, music and the way services are held differ so greatly. In this day and age, the lines are being erased and the concept of believing 100, 50 65 percent of the bible is being addressed.

i'll come back to this one...

It is surely true that many African Americans are functioning from what they have been taught about the Bible and the selected readings of th emost popular parts. Personally, I believe the general life of Christ makes a much better model, than the overall Bible simply because it is fairly straight forward, at least depending who you are reading John, Paul etc.

However, the Bible opens the door to wide and varied interpretation, mistakes, errors, and faulty science. I know that creationist have been trying to tie science and Genesis together for years, but I don't think it will ever happen as long as they continue to picture the Bible as inerrant and Genesis as a literal account of creation.

Few people even notice that there are two different stories of creation in the Bible. Which one is correct? As allegory or metaphor, it wouldn't much difference, but as absolute science it does. This is the area where I think fundamentalists do a major disservice to their relgion of choice. Do we really believe that Balam's *** talked or is it just a clever metaphor to indicate the power of God. If it is not a metaphor, then it makes a shambles of arguments for scientific authenticity.

Still, I take your point well that many have not learned any different and have not investigated to find out any different. To investigate with no predetermined conclusions takes courage and it takes just as much to accept whatever it is that you find whether it is to have renewed belief or to forego it all together. Perhaps, the main point should be that an uninvestigated life is alife that is largely lived by someone else's rules.

If you are Christian--be a Christian, but be a Christian for the right reasons. This was the most troubling thing that I found in my research--that many people are just joiners. They don't investigate, question or even know the rules--they join because others have or that it seems the best thing to do.

So, I guess overall I was not surprised by the nonbelief I found, I think a certain amount is to be expected, but I wasmore surprised by the numbers that kept cropping up in the majority Christian black community that reflected behaviors that were far different from beliefs. I had an idea, but that just came from personal observation. So I thought to myself that maybe I just lived in a messed up community, but when I found it to be more wide spread, that's when I started to wonder about the effectiveness of religion in affecting human behavior.

On the surface it would seem that secular law (penal codes) have been far more effective in stopping bad behavior because people are afraid of punishment at the hands of anybody's law. I also, found that what I consider to be one of the primary and most attractive aspects of Christianity--its code of forgiveness--may actually be one of its most troubling. I didn't want to go with it at first, but finally I admitted that no one expects to die in the next second, minute, day or even month and with that in mind, many folks are willing to take a chance on doing the wrong thing figuring they can get right with God before their number comes up. I didn't particularly like that conclusion because it doesn't say much about humanity, but in a way I suspect that many people feel they have the ultimate escape clause in forgiveness.

Anyway, I won't stir the pot any further. I'm trying to get a handle on Yeshua Ben Pantera right now. Although, Jesus is notably absent from history written at his time, the name Yeshua ben Pantera appears about 100 years befort Christ. Interestingly, his story is remarkably similar to story we know as Jesus in the Bible. "Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ" by Alvar Ellegard is a very interesting book. Check it out, I know you would be interested.


Ra

i shall check it out and by the way..there are actually more than two creation story but they very from different cultures....

I'm smiling because it appears we have read many of the same texts. Your statement on the creation story tips up both off. Not many people are aware of the multiplicity of creation stories and their similarity unless they have done some study outside of the general track. Obviously, you have done both. I commend you for being so well read. It is always a pleasure.

Ra

Instead of criticizing you for using what first appeared to be sheepish perception mixed with one-sided statistics, I thought a little further and with the help of my better half, I was able to come to the conclusion that this could be indeed positive. So after thinking on it, I say thank you for creating dialog that will at the very least shake us out of our comfort zones on the subject matter.

My opinion is that Christianity is a vessel to God. I believe that my relationship with God is made possible through Christ. Aside of the other obvious points of view regarding the wearing of labels and Christianity being a way of life, I think the issue that we need to address is what a Christian belief system is to each of us on an individual basis...for ME it is the foundation of the life and walk of Jesus Christ of which my life is built around. It is #1 on my hierarchy of needs. Please, do not use that information to form your ideas about me. Accept me for who I am, not what I do or the group I belong to. I get the feeling that you’re formulating your equations to create a label for people using "loose" variables. What you fail to understand is that although peoples belief systems may be somewhat the same, the physiological hierarchy level may be different. Causing they're conscious and unconscious behavioral attitudes to differ.

When I look at your statistics, I’m concerned because there are so many crucial factors at hand that you’ve failed to discuss. There is absolutely no way to make an assessment about the ills of society and expect that the title of Christianity alone would cure them, furthermore blaming the hypocrisies of the two on the institution of religion. The only thing that was revealed was that YOU have accepted two things....1) the statistics are correct and 2) you have accepted the variables as correct. Hence, you now have a way of showing your question about religion as it pertains to your life. Please, its ok, just say how you feel.

As to the issue of the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Before Mr. Jackson was a reverend, before he was an activist, HE WAS A HUMAN. Subject to the same physiological needs as every other human being. Because he is a human being, he is subject to the same conscious and unconscious behavior issues as with all of us.

What we really need to be discussing is why we as people have this obsessive fascination with labeling and categorizing people. What is this craving to have people figured out about? Think about that for a moment. Society only labels people so that they can box them into some category and therefore know how to pass judgment. Christian, young, old, rich, poor, middle class, light skin, dark skin, cute, skinny the list goes on and on.... Its ridiculous. People are gonna do what they wanna do- THATS what your statistics tell me. The fact that they "say" or identify themselves as Christians is neither here or there.

My thoughts to you as I believe you to be an "out of the box" thinker is.... First.. say how you feel… You don’t need anything or anyone to validate you. Secondly, know that your statistics are just that.. statistics. Although I believe you relayed them accurately, I’m sure you know they are always subject... Third and most important, please..don’t look for the external to define the internal because the external is always subject to change.

I apologize to you if it sounds as if I’m being harsh, I’m really not, just speaking the truth as I see it.. (maybe stirring the pot as well-lol) Thanks again for the topic...
Peace..

8th Wonder!

~always consciously competent~

By the way Amun-Ra, what is your personal view on religion? Are you of any particular faith? I'd like to know.... I understand if you'd rather not say...
Thanks brotha..
Peace..

8th!

Oh my gosh Amun-Ra, i looked up and you've posted something new to chew on!!! its almost 4 in the morning!! Going to bed.. i'll respond later today...
peace!!

8th!

Church is 98.75% entertainment. I do not find any of the disparities shocking. Religion is a scam.

98.75% entertainment? well, sir, exactly what book of statistics did you draw this conclusion from or is it from that .25% viewpoint who prefers to criticize instead being a participant of change...

please, indulge us with some insight instead of "sucker punches"...

The statistics were a joke (but then so is church!). If they took the entertainment out of church, who would go? The vast majority of black churches are personality cults, one asy way to tell is to listen to the members talk about the pastor.
Is there somthing wrong in a system that allows or even worse encourages, not simply homosexuality, but child molestation. I know it ia hard to think of a 15 year old boy as a child, but they are. Haven't you ever wondered why there is such a large gay male population in the church, yet there is no corresponding lesbian population?

Is there something wrong in a system where the mother of Jesus gave birth a 14 and yet sex is not even discussed in a practical manner? I understand that in many churches there are also pregnant 14 year old girls (even one many is too many), all they know is that sex before marriage is a sin, and it insures that you have a boyfriend.

Is there something peculiar in the idea that so many people follow without question (I could have just ended the sentence there and let you fill in the blank) a book that has undoubtedly been edited and re-edited, lost and found and filled to the brim with contradictory information? Isn't it just a little weird that the very thing that Christ put up, Paul tore down and the masses accept it as gospel without question? (I felt the need to put without question twice, because at some point some things should be questioned)

The whole atmosphere is that of a facade, what could it be but entertainment? People put on their Sunday best; clothes, face and spirit, and parade to the church to be hollered at. They sit there enjoying the flash and ignoring the substance, that is if there is anything of substance there. They will tel you how so&so sang and how so&so preached, but they can not tell you what so&so was talking about. They use words that they don't know what they mean as though they did, it has become a secret language that only they understand and is only fit for Sunday worship.

The truly sad thing is that the real power of what a church can do is right there, right in front of them every sunday, entertaining them. They get so into the entertainment, they miss the real lesson being taught. After you read this, I will tell you what it is.

This was not an exercise in proselytizing. People take their beliefs seriously and to denigrate or belittle another is treading carelessly. I have no right to force my beliefs on any one and no one has the right to force theirs upon me. Perhaps it is "funny" to even assume that religion would have an affect on people's behavior, but that wasn't the point. The point was verification.

Just about any observer of the world would be hard pressed to say that people "practice what they preach," but to apply that to all people is generalizing. That's why we do research, we start with a hypothesis and then see if it will "hold water." If it doesn't, we come up with another until we finally say that as far as we could find out "the facts don't fit the theory." It also means being willing to throw out a theory that is wrong. Science is self-correcting in that way. Eventually, theories change or are adjusted.

No, it is not amusing. My whole point is that people "preach and don't practice". Bringing Satan into this only makes Satan a co-defendant for bad behavior. People choose to do bad things and religion "properly applied" or "improperly applied" has never stopped it as hundreds of years of bloodshed in the name of religion (the Inquisition, the Crusades, witch trials, slavery, the Holocaust, Ireland, the Middle East, Sri Lanka, etc.) show. There have been over 2,000 years for it to be "properly applied" and it hasn't stopped anything that man wants to do. Bringing Satan into the discussion only opens another can of worms and is a distraction from the narrow confines of "belief and behavior" that I will not even venture to discuss because it would require a detailed discussion of theodacy, omnipotence and freewill, which requires much more space than we can take up here.

For those who are curious, I term my self a "humanist". If you have had no exposure to humanism check out the African Americans for Humanism website at http://www.secularhumanism.org/aah/. As a secular humanist, I have no belief in God and therefore, I have no belief in Satan. As to whether or not a god, gods or goddesses exist, I claim the position of the agnostic and have no clue and neither does anyone else, despite their claims to the contrary. I believe we are all born atheists. We have no concept of God but are introduced to it by our parents, family and associates who also came about it in the same way. It seems that ones belief is largely a product of proximity. For instance, if you were born in India there is a good chance that you would be Hindu. Likewise, if you were born in Egypt more than likely you would be a Muslim and if you were born in the old Soviet Union you would probably have no belief at all.

There are also those who do not have a high opinion of the black church. Part of that skepticism is justified because of the charlatans who have fleeced the flock in the name of God, but overall the black church as an institution must be seen in a favorable light because of its work in the area of human and social issues. It is the one institution that blacks have constantly controlled and it plays a valuable role in the lives of many people. Many would decry the black church as a hopelessly outdated institution that teaches superstition from the handbook of slave masters, but they are not familiar with the traditions of the black church. Still, there is no need to defend the black church, that also, is another topic.

My point? Simple. Religion doesn't seem to be very effective in deterring bad behavior. That is all. I could have drawn that conclusion from general observation, but then it would just be my opinion. Am I advocating that people drop out of religion? Absolutely not. Am I proposing that anyone should not believe in God? Absolutely not. Am I even proposing that people should stop using religion as a moral guide? Absolutely not. Then what is my point? Religion doesn't seem to be very effective in deterring bad behavior.

RA,

as we have discussed before, i applaud your standpoint and your effort to look deeper into the workings of what issue, (be it political, social, or moral) and address them objectively. I thank you for opening this can of worms for it seems the viewpoints are varied and some are accurate. Continue to seek and i shall seek with you...

Now Wisdomseed,

i find it unfrotunate that you take such a volatile position towards the church without looking at the good that it is doing. Like i said when i first oposed the question, i feel that you are taking the pulpit and the congregation and surmising that this is church and this is all it is. Well there is oh so much more. Church is a place of worship to GOD. the reason i say GOD alone because there are many different beliefs and they all attend some sort of place of worship. Most of them will call it a church for it is an acceptable name for it. it is true that there is more entertainment occurring on Sunday morning but you must understand that this is a day of replenshment. it is a time of prasie and worship to GOD. this can done in any way as long as GOD is being pleased. The time for edificationa dn education normally occurs on midday Bible study. The preaching on sunday is to address social issues and to encourage the body to be strong in ther faith. Church is more than Sunday mornings and those who are disciplined in their fatih will walk in it everyday. If you are dissatisfied with the way the church worships then might i suggest you seek another way to worship whom you worship. i say that in such a way as nt to offend for i do not know your faith system.

once again i must say that i hear you...it seems you have the knowledge to incite change and yet you choose to stand back and criticize. why hold on to the information that could change lives. do you find it more comfortable to ridicuale someone's belief system for that is not what this forum was for. it was to encourgae and instill deeper insight. please revela to us this information that you hold so dearly....

Dnommo
if the good even slightly outweighed the bad, then it would be beneficial, but as it is, the bad outweighs the good, and the good the "church" does can be accomplished without the church.

There is no more to the church than the people in it, sadly often times the whole of it is less than the sum of its parts.
The key to what you said is those disciplined in it, that would be a whopping 3% (kidding, but it really can not be higher than 8) How can it be useful when it can not even get its own members on the straight and narrow to any great degree. If a shepard kept losing 86% of his sheep, he may want to become a barber!

I am not even going to attempt to try an change something so ineffective as the black church. It is too bad, it needs to be replaced with Oprah or something.

But the real power of God is shown through a good choir. Not in the singing necessarily, but the lesson a good choir teaches. That lesson is:

If you take people, and discpline them in their own joy, to work as a collective unit, towards a specific goal it is then you will see the real power of God. The choir stands as reminder of what miracles are, every Sunday morning.

I am certain that you will add to that your own inflection of holiness as abilical perspective kind of thing, but that is the nut of it right there. Practiced, disiplined, a common goal, each working in their own joy, their own creativity. That is a beautiful sight and a wonderful lesson. But the church only lets the choir get it, every body else just gets to sit there. And I know, you know what I am talking about, I know you get it too, when you are in a room filled with holy rollers for bible study. Not that pretend one on wednesdays, but that real serious one, where every one gets to go deep, real deep and you can sit around and relish in the joy of understanding. The church, as much as it generates power is unable to tap it for good.

Nope dude, I have no interest in church now, even though I still like a good choir. I am not a bible beleiver and I have no want to be preached to. If someone would talk to me like Jesus talked to people, I might sit and suck some of that up, but I am not for that Pauline crap. I don't have to follow anyone to find God. I have to get my joy on and i ain't in church. Beleive it or not Oprah know what she is talking about more often than not, and she does have a following, but they are stupid for following her instead of finding their own way.
But you know what, I bet the people that follow Oprah are more moral than those in church. Makes you wonder don't it. (Well not you personally, you got the bible, you already know everything there is to know as far as spiritual matter are concerned. I will tell you what I tell all xtians. Put down you bible and see if you can find God)

hmmmm, very interesting. i do believe the choir is a staple in the church and a strong sample of good discipline but remember, it is a part of the whole. a good choir will do its job: ushering in the presence of GOD. music has always been one of my favorites ways to enter into the presence of GOD and a good choir will do it everytime. BUT, discipline still comes into play. if you take the choir out of the church (meaning into the secular world not in a ministry capactiy) then the choir is still a good choir, just not one worshipping GOD. if we continue to take the positive activites out of the church then yes the church will just be a building.

I agree with you one thing...i would feel very uncomfortable if someone came up to me and talked to me as if they were preaching to me. This happens to me all the time though and it is amazing the responses i get from those trying to get me "saved" when they realize that i am already a minister. I believe that God dwells in us adn that we are to be an avenue for others to see but, like this forum initially spoke of, i don't agree with the propaganda of promoting Chrisitianity by those who lack the desire nor disciplne to follow in obedience. Because this society has found no fear or relevance in going to church then they take libereties of hiding behind the cross they wear around their neck and yet not really understand the ignificance of it. one thing would hope you understand... the true church cannot be held within the walls of a building. once again i reiiterrate...church is more than a building on sundays. the building on sundays is a place for people to congregate to worship GOD. Although some may not see it that way, it is true. Jesus destroyed the tables in the synagogue because the people turned it into a place of profit. Rest assured he will do it again to those who prostitue the word of GOD.

If you ever crossed my path ont he street, i would want to hear your views and one thing you can be assured of. You will not hear me speak to you as though i am more sanctified than you. we are all human beings and because there awas no particular chrisitan language when Jesus walked this Earth, why should there be one now.

What Would Jesus Do? He would talk to you without pulling his bible or preaching to you. he would make it so simple and plain that anyone would be willing to listen. I pray that i continue to grow to that place.

i respect your comments and views and i thank you for sharing. it is good to hear all sides of the spectrum...

oh by the way, Oprah does have a fatih system but the reason peaople follow her is because of the things she does. whe gives ways as muich money as she earns. That is true spiritually living: to be a blessing not just to be blessed. Don't you think?

i commend her on her humanitarian efforts...

If you take the choir out of the church and it was just a bunch or people undergoing the same process, they would be as powerful if not moreso, because their creativity would be just as focused and tempered, but have other avenues to explore.

The fact remains it would be an excellant model for the rest of the church to follow, but it is not. One of the biggest failings of the balc church is that it enjoys creating a void, but is want to how to fill it. Of course you will say that God fills the void left by having morally corrected oneself, but the numbers do not bear that out. To the contrary, we have to fill the void. You fill the void with bible study, but everyone is not gonna go deep, so it does not satisfy every one to just read and study the bible (however a little study every day is a good thing).

If you as a woman in your church who seems to cook like a wizard, how she feels when she cooks, she really can not describe it, or the man who works on cars all the time, how he can hear a car, know what is wrong with it and get lost in fixing it, or you can ask a writer or a singer what it is like to get into that area of your work where you just get "caught up" in the creative experience or an athelete in "the zone" That is God, that is the presence of God, achieved through creation through discipline and goal. If these people want to stay moral, the will do as Oprah says and find their joy and keep some balance in their life, morality is simple to achieve. The church, should be where there people can do that, or at least find the path to do it themselves, but it is not, so people pass through the church on their way to where ever.


The church is not in balance and does little to balance people. We all know it is wrong to steal, but after church we can over pastor's house and watch some bootleg video of a movie still in theaters. Jesus told you even a little leaven, leavens the whole loaf (or was that Paul?), not matter, because it is true. A slong as you allow a little, you make room for a lot. But you don't hear a preacher saying don't watch bootleg movies, you do not hear preachers talking about why drugs should be legal, they simply pass on the error that if it is illegal, it must be immoral, as though the two were the same.

If there is any one thing I have learned in my searches for truth, knowledge and wisdom it is that the search never ends for once we believe that it has ended we cease to grow. We believe that we have found all we need to know and become intolerant of differnt ways and new things.

Strange, but this is the most ignorant I have even been in my entire life. I call it progressive ignorance as it grow exponentially with every new thing I learn. I have discovered that it is only through learning and understanding that we come to know that we know hardly anything at all and then suddenly we are painfully aware of how much there is to know and that we will never know it all.

It is strange how we move from knowing everything in our teen years to knowing hardly anything at all as we gain more and more knowledge. That is why it is intersting to have these discussions. I always pick up something. I've been stealing knowledge from everyone on the poetry pages for almost two years. Some of the most profound things I have learned come from people that I don't agree with, but the veracity of their thought is beyond question.

Thanks to all for sharing with me.

first point, well taken, but if the choir's main purpose was to worship GOD and ushering in HIS presence and you take THAT choir out fo the church fior they don't need the church then you take away one of the true avenues to worship GOD.

Choirs are an excellent model for the rest of the church to follow, but it is also a model for how the church should not be. You spoke earlier of homosexuals in the church yet very few lesbians. I beg to differ...There is just as large lesbian community in the church as it is gay men. The difference is that they do not profess it as much through their demeanor. This is a completely different discussion for a later date (watch out for a post). But, in the choir, you find the large majority of gay men. They rarely take any other position in the church except of a position of leadership. So, if the choir is to be the role model for the church and yet there is a problem addressing gays, then how valid can the choir be as a role model? Just curious,

Second poit is that you won't hear preacher supporting the legalization fo drugs because drug abuse is destroying the temple of GOD in the person. it is also a dependence so great that it pulls the drug user away from any faith system they have other than the one they have in the drugs.
The church will not support something that will help to continue something that destroys families, increases crime and tears down the moral fabric of socety. leagalizing drugs is saying we give up and the additions win. that is a must point. Second, anyhthing illegal is immoral. Please tell me what's illegal that is not immoral also?

My next point is I find that you seem to follow the many teachings of Oprah who, by the way, takes most of her advice from religious writers, and yet what you have said is the same thing that is being taught in many churches. You can find joy in anything you do. Many find joy in going to church. Many, such as you, do not, but that is not the majority. If it was then the prolifferation of church memberships would not be so as of late. If it was just entertainment, then it would be just a concert. It is not just the choirs that bring them in because the churches that have world reknown choirs do not have large congregations. The larger church body comes to learn more about GOD and if that church depends on the choir to do the work of the preacher, then they are wrong.

i am not sure what experiences you have had with preacher's but if you have been in the house of a preacher who had a bootleg movie then maybe you should question their integrity instead of bearing the weight on a genralization of all preacher's. Because of your negative experiences you choose to sit back and say all preacher's are like that but, sir this is invalid and i am saddened to continue to read your views on that. It seems to me that your eyes are closed to the matter and yet, you have studied the BIBLE. I understand that you have given up on church but please do not place every pastor, preacher, and minister into the same category for they all do not abide by your concept of who they are. MOST walk in integrity and if you took the time to see that then you would discover many who have lived their lives in obedience and service to GOD.

your views have no real validity nor do they provide support. You have stood on the foundations of OPRAH to support your thoughts when in reality, the views you have stated are well intstilled in the church. My suggestion to you is to seek a place of worship to GOD in whatever capacity and allow GOD to open your eyes to the truth. This dicussion did not give general indictments of the church. It is seeking solutions to an ongoing problem. You have some good ideas and yet. like many frustrated with the church, have chosen to sit back and throw stones. The church can be fixed and working in the aspects it should be so why leave it to those you feel are not doing what they are supposed to do?

Amun-Ra gave specific statistics from Christian and non Christian reseachers on particular topics. Most of which i have studied in depth. You sir, have not supported your stance but given generalities and used this room to promote your disgust and hatred for the church of GOD. If the experiences you had are the only basis you are using then sir, i ask that you please reach further into the book of Knowledge and receive some insight. There are many churches doing many wonderful things under the leadership of men and women of integrity. i tried to understand your views but enough is enough. Knowledge is power but haterd is ignorance and this forum has gone from understanding to tearing down.

Amun Ra, i thank you for the forum. Up to this point i have enjoyed the discussions and i respect the many opinions but i have had enough of the "church" witch hunt. i am stepping away from this discussion until it returns back to its main focus: Finding solutions to the problems.

Final answer: Religion doesn't work but a strong faith system does, through obedience and knowledge...

God Bless all of you.

On your first statement, you see God as a being, but I see God more as a power, power that is the Universe. So we differ about what a choir removed from the church can accomplish.

My problem with gay men in the church is not that they are gay, but the preponderence of child sexual abuse that happens there. Gay men in the choir are cool with me, as long as they sat away from teenaged boys, that is where myproblem with them is. Since I am not a bible beleiver, I don't have a problem with homosexuality. It is on the planet, simply so we can get over it.

Preachers don't support that legalization of drugs because their morality does not respect life. We can deal with problems created by addictions, even better if they did not have the stigma of illegality attached to them. If we drugs were legal, lives would be saved, no doubt. But that is another thread altogether. And thanks to the church for putting the kibosh on any real discussion of this issue in or community by the way.

I actually do not follow Oprah, I just understand what she is trying to accomplish, and I also understand why. IN actuality I am a devout fan of the Jerry Springer Show, unadulterated sex and violence on TV.

I am certain that choirs are just part of the reason people go to church, and I am just as sure that the pastor of the church is a larger contributing factor, because churches are cults of personality and little else. They pay more homage to people and institutions than ideals. Religion should be about ideals, but it rarely is.

No I never went to a preacher's house and watched a bootleg movie, I refuse to watch a bootleg movie anywhere. I am disgusted by the idea of stealing. Every time I talk to a Christians, they think it is some bad experience that keeps me from church. If it is an experience, it is church itself. I just don't care for it, structurally or spiritually. But oddly, I envy people who go and like it. I wish I could, but I can't and don't.

As far as my statements having no validity, I have to disagree, well partially because they are my statements, but mostly because the validity of them is born out in the ineffectiveness of the church to create a moral direction for the people who attend, and even less for those who do not. You continue to tell us how wonderful and effective the church is, and as they get all crowded up on Sunday's thier real effect is minimal if at all.

The church has no want for people such as myself and you know it. The whole idea of the church is to convert you , not to change it. If the churrch would change, so would the people. But essentially the church is the same way it was when it was one hundred years ago, which actually makes it worse. If you want me to tell you how churches could change for the better, I would tell you in a minute, but this is not about how they could change, this is the first step of repentence, the recognition of error, and that places you at a step previous to that which is denial. As soon as you accept that the church is in sin, the sooner you can get the grace need to make the changes to have a better more effective church, instead, you say, there is no problem.

I really think it disrespectful of you to run fromt he discussion, but sadly I am not surprised. I understand you r want to defend something you love, but maybe it is time God opened your eyes to the truth, but you would rather close them and ignore the issues that need to be addressed and defined. I think you oughtta pray on it before you run.

sir please do not twist my words.

how can you speak of repentance and denial when it is you who speaks negatively of an institution of GOD. Sir, i do not repent for the actions of the church for once again it is a building. The activities occurring inside are for each personal to surmise. To once again provide a general statement about the church in whole and not look at the broader picture is walking the same shoes of those who crucified Christ. That sir is where the repentance should occur. The church, since its fisrct creation has provided a sofeter stance on the maroality of life. if you had read my first response heere, you would have seen that, but instead you jumped to the conclusion that it's all entertainment. tell me, can you provide information that states all churches do absolutely nothing to correct the moral injustices of the world or is this another one of your assumptions formulate from blind inaccuracies. I am not sure what your concept of what church is supposed to be but seeing how i am in denial i would like to be enlightened. I appreciate your candor opinion of where i am on this matter and i can safely say you are very wrong. This conversation has been a constand barrage of assumptions by you that i will attack you with the bible and yet, i am seeking you to understand that just because i am a Chrisitan does not mean i will "beat you" with it. My walk is between me and GOD, that's it. it is individual obediance and sacrifice. If you are seeking validity on your comments about how bad the church is then why do you envy those, such as i, who find peace, joy and balance in theri lives by going to church. Their should be no envy but i appreciate the confirmation.

Also, i never said that church was without sin, nor have i porclaimed that church is so good they can do no worng. i am aware of the disparages in and out of the church but what i am saying is that the discussion was pertaining to the whole concept of religion not just the institution of church. Yes many people would assume that you may have had a negative experience within the church for the words you speak ring of one who was traumatized by someone or something within the church. this is why i made such a statement. second of all, i am not running from the forum i am stepping away until the discussion returns to the issue at hand. the discussion dealt with religion in whole not just part but you sir found it an avenue to browbeat the church. i don't love the church i love GOD and my purpose hear to is listen to all sides of the discussion but i will not allow assumptions to come into play. The church stands on many moral issues dealing with homosexuality through drug addiction and so forth, but from reading your last comments it is obvious that i am not the blinded one here sir but you are. Tell me, is it okay to your GOD that men sleep with men? is it okay to HIM that man abuse their bodies through drug addiction?

I am curious to know that if you have never experienced the church (allowing a reasonable amount of time studying it) then how can you draw such conclusions about something you obviously know nothing about. As for me, i have experienced many beliefs , cultures and backgrounds and once again, I choose Christianity, but that is neither here nor there. am not inflicting my beliefs on you but in the same breath i will not allow someone who obviously has no clue to beat down someone else's beliefs. I would like to uderstand your viewpoint but i find it difficult when you use a place that you've not given a personal chance, as your excuse to be so negative. Enlighten me on that sir for i run from nothing or no one...

eyes and ears wide open for serious discussion not petty bickering and assumptions...

If the instituon of God, does not benefit people, then what good is it? You know when I am talking about the church, it is not a building, it is a group of people who attend on a regular basis.
You say it is people like me who crucified Christ, but in actuality, it was more people like you! People who defended the scriptures, traditions and of the church against the accusations Christ flung at them.

The conclusion I jumped to is the black church is ineffective because it amounts to nothing more than entertainment. You do not have to agree, but the truth of it is there. There are more churches than you can throw a stick at in the black community and yet that same community is rife with all sorts of immorality, even the immorality preached against in those very churches. The failure of the church to be effective is what I am talking about.
If you are trying to understand me, then you are going about it the long way. You keep bringing up this biblical, non-existant, quasi-spritual thing that does not exist and defend that. You are talking about the spiritual concept, called the body of Christ, but I am talking about people in the big building two blocks over. You, seem to me, to be talking about the supposed, the perfected church; while I am talking about the real one.

Dude, don't pat yourself on the back so quickly, I envy xtians for their ability to swallow great heaps of BS and say it tastes good. It must be nice to never question and still have all the answers.

If you don't love the church and you do love God.... No wait, you are not making a clean separation of God and Church are you? Would there also be a separation of God and the Bible to follow? As far as people assuming that I had a bad experience with church, they are right, the experience is called church.

I can not begin to tell you how much hypocracy the church's stand on homosexuality is. One thing that God requires is truth and they will not deal with the truth of it. But that is a whole nother issue that I do not want to get sidetracked on. If you ever want to talk about it, I would be happy to offer my more than scathing views of the church and homosexuality.

Where is the statement that drug use is drug absue? Excess of anything is sinful, but as far as recreational use goes, the bible does not say anything against it. I know you will trot out that body is the temple thing, but I think that just applies to monks or something. Christ, according to the book of John turned water to wine, is there that much difference in water to wine or rope to a joint? Is it getting high that bothers God? I don't think so. Addictive personality disorders can be a problem, but that is addiction to anything, church included.

Dude, I went to different churches over a twenty year period. Even after I stopped attending services I still went to Bible Study and Sunday School, but eventually that began to offend me as well, so I left.

Oh and you are quite a biblicist, that is a beleiver in the divinity of the bible. As much as I like the bible, its veracity is questionable at best so I don't accept it blindly, and please don't go 2nd Tim on me. That verse eats itself up!


What we were discussing here, or so I thought, was the vast difference between what people say and what they do as pertains to the church. Many black people profess some degree of religiosity and yet our community is rife with crime and all sorts of immorality. Why? Because the church, religion in our community is rarely a lifestyle as much as it is a good show for a dollar!

Email, my brother!!

WisdomSeed,

you made my point for me....Thank you sir for validating what i said earlier...

i step away to allow the disussion to return to it original purpose...

I think my original point was that religion (any religion) has not been very helpful in stopping man's inhumanity to man and in many cases has actually encouraged it. There are those who would say think how bad it would have been without religion and I think that I would have rather chanced it.

My personal opinion is that there is a core of good people who will always do what is right or at least try to regardless if they have religion or not. Some of these folks belong to organized religion and some don't, but I firmly believe they are the ones who set the examples for the rest of us. There is some evidence to suppport the 20 percent figure.

We all know those who actually live by their principles unerringly. I wish I could be one of them, but I am far too opinionated and skeptical. I have a brother-in-law who seems to always do the right thing even when it causes him to be on the losing end--needless to say I admire him--but I'm not even close.

Ra