I do agree that communication is a key factor. However, I believe self-reflection and growth are the answers to poor relationships.

Simply put we have not dealt with all of our issues before we engage in relationships and we don't deal with them once we are in the relationship. We need to deal with all of our insecurities and low self-esteem at some point. Of course it is easier with a loving, trusting, understanding, enlightened partner, but the fact is many of us can't find that in a partner because they haven't become that person yet. We all have things that have happened in our lives that makes us apprehensive, insecure, scared, and imperfect. Where we fail is we never deal with them. So...since we all react in different ways...we become these people that have imperfect relationships because we ourselves are imperfect and we do nothing to work towards perfection. Do I believe we will ever be perfect??? Hell no. But in the journey, however painful, we will discover strength and self-esteem which will help us get past those pains in the past so we will not cause pain in our future. Will we ever be free from pain??? Hell no. But we will be able to sustain strong, loving, fulfilling relationships because the lines of communication will be open because the fear that stemmed from those previous hurts will no longer cause us to sabotage our relationship.


As for men being dogs. As I said previously, we all deal with our insecurities different. Many man become dogs. They don't trust women, for whatever reason(real or percieved) so they dog them out so as to not be dogged themselves. The truth is they becomve very good psychologists and judges of charactor. They tell women what they want to hear in order to get what they want and the sales pitch has been carved to near perfect. They simply master their craft. Women fall for it because of some insecurity in them. Maybe they feel they can't do better. I don't know.

Some men don't have problem with trust. They have a problem with their manhood. For whatever reason they feel that sleeping with countless women and having control over their emotions makes them men. Everytime they are not feeling good about themselves they find a woman to conquer so they can for a short period of time.

And finally the is the perpectual kid. Some men just refuse to grow up. Their own happiness is their only concern. If the means being single, having freedom, and using women along the way so be it. There is no since of responsiblity. They just want to do what they want to do. That could be both pain in the past and lack of effective training. They don't see themselves as dogs because they 'tell the women they dont want a relationship' but they know there will be feelings developed so it is irresponsible to stay until she falls in love and then pull away be ' they told you'. If they were the players that they thought they were, they would just come right out and say "I just want sex and when you fall in love I am leaving."

The bottom line is we all need to deal with our problems at some point. Fear of the pain it will cause is not an excuse. Some may need professionals. Some may need to just be by themselves to work it out. Whatever the case may be we need to work towards being complete without a partner so we can be at peace when we have one.

Let me know what yall think.

Dre'

I think that it is true, we have to deal with things before we get into a relationship, However if we have a true partner they will always be they to assist in what we are dealing with, because everone has there own issues. If we are open enough to know what we want and communicate that clearly relationships will be fine. Its all about being honest feel your emotions and let them be heard.

Rain: Every Emotion

I agree Rain. However, it is a sad fact that our fear, insecurity, low self-esteem, and distrust are what we are trying to cure but its those same things that keeps us from communicating effectively; thereby keeping us from fully healing when faced with trying to get help from a partner. If we weren't afraid of the world's/our partner's reaction to what we feel and say it would be easy to communicate honetly and openly which would make it much easier to heal. But...we are afraid. So.. facing the issues are sometimes easier by yourself(if one is strong enough) or with a stranger i.e. therapist. In both cases there is very little fear of reaction, retaliation or loss of love/affection/understanding. We just have to find the courage to start addressing our issues in some way.

Dre'!!! You gave away all the secrets, man!! *lol* The "male" fraternity is sweatin' now because you just gave us all the insight about how men think and why they behave the way they do!!

I sure do appreciate the honest man's perspective. Some men would rather have chopped off their fingers and tongue first as opposed to expose themselves that way. When a person reveals who they really are to another person, they open themselves up for either respect or rejection as a result. Only a well-adjusted individual can do this without fear of harmful repercussions.

This quote from you says it all for me:

"The bottom line is we all need to deal with our problems at some point. Fear of the pain it will cause is not an excuse. Some may need professionals. Some may need to just be by themselves to work it out. Whatever the case may be we need to work towards being complete without a partner so we can be at peace when we have one."

Amen!

007 -

I always say that one should be happy with him/herself, where you are in life, what you are doing, and the man/woman you have become or becoming. If not, 'go back in the house, work out what you need to work on, and then come back out'. To try to merge/mix your complicated, broken, painful, ugly, twisted life with another without any attempt to 'fix' yourself is abusive to me.

My tolerance level is very low for people like this, because (more so than not) these people know that they are 'messed up', but want someone to put up with them. They know it and I have met some people who have said, 'I know I need to change'. My response is, 'change then'. Another person cannot 'fix' or make up for something one lost or didn't get.

Because we will always have to contend with people you descibed 007, and others who didn't make the list, it's important to know how and when to set parameters for these type people. Also developing a sense of discernment will help when dealing with people who lie and tell you what they think you want to hear to only get what they want.

Insecurity is such a turn off to me, too. And plays a big part. A secure man has moved and continues to move further and further up on my list of most desirable traits.

I see life as a gift from God and I cherish that gift by the way I live this life. The quality of this life is dependent on who & what I allow in it. The quality of people I allow in it is determined by their character, personality, and spirit. As it is their life coupled with mine that will enhance me and them to do more & better.

We all have stuff we need to deal with. It is my responsibility to know what 'stuff' I need to work on. I.e., friends may help by saying stuff like, 'don't be so hard, allow for one mistake gosh.' Then I have to evaluate myself to see that I'm not too much of a perfectionist and making life miserable for others. Or, I know when I am acting 'crazy' and know that my mama & daddy 'didn't raise me like that'. So I 'stop it and act right'.

Rain-

I'll be there if a person sincerely want and are trying to do better. But to say, 'this is how I am', or 'accept me for what I am if you love me', or 'stop trying to change me', when you know you are messed up will make me lose all respect for and patience with you. Sometimes these people are not open about who they are, what they need, and poor, poor communicators. They bully, do other things to distract your attention from seeing the 'real them'. So it is imperative to know yourself and what you will/will not tolerate and what you want.

The only person that you can change is you.

That's what I think for now. I may have other thoughts later.

Queen thanks...much respect.

Anana... you said volumes with

"But to say, 'this is how I am', or 'accept me for what I am if you love me', or 'stop trying to change me', when you know you are messed up will make me lose all respect for and patience with you. Sometimes these people are not open about who they are, what they need, and poor, poor communicators. They bully, do other things to distract your attention from seeing the 'real them'."

I second that.

Do you all think that most Black people are supportive of professional therapy? The men that I've met who I thought could benefit from such an experience, were vehemently opposed to it.

Men aren't supposed to cry, they aren't supposed to be afraid, they aren't supposed to be sensitive, they aren't supposed to seek therapy, they aren't supposed to nurture others, when lost, they aren't supposed to stop to ask for directions, and they aren't supposed to eat quiche!!!

Gender roles and definitions are extremely influential in this society. Boys and girls are exposed to society's idea of who they should be while still in the womb. How our parents/guardians interact with us. The way we are dressed, what we are encouraged to play with, what professions we counseled to choose, how we carry ourselves. All role-playing, from cradle to grave.

To be honest, I don't think there's much difference between men and women, not even biologically. But because of the way we are socialized, some of us feel gulfs between us as large as the Grand Canyon. It's no wonder that we often find ourselves hurt and confused when we try to come together. But the good news is that we don't have to remain broken and confused. Some of us have figured this out and found our "real" selves through enlightenment.

Men aren't from Mars and women aren't from Venus. We're born on the same planet but we've become so disconnected that we don't recognize how similar we are. The forums I've visited here in the past week or so, I've read some phenomenal posts by men and women. A lot of the messages between the two are saying essentially the same thing when it comes to love and relationships. Many have the same dreams. If we're really that close in mind and spirit, then why do many of us feel so lost and alone?

We need to learn how to speak the same language...starting with the language of genuine love: of self and of others.

Queen---- You go girl. You hit the nail on the head. You sound like you are one of the enlightened ones. Great post.

Dre'

Kem--

Women are committing to dogs because they have issues that they have not dealt with ;self-esteem, pain, insecurity, self-love or patience. In many cases women are taking the first average looking man that has SOME of the qualities that they look for in a man because they are just tired of being alone. And, dogs are out there looking for just such women. Basically it is easier to find a dog than a good man because dogs seek out vulneralbe women and good men are not nearly as aggressive. And let's face it we take the easy road when given the chance. Once women(and men) have looked inward and have made real progress towards positive resolution of thier own issues, facing the world from a position of strength will allow us to take the road less traveled when looking for a possible mate. The end result will be a woman who is a better judge of whom will be a positive influence in her life and have to strength to dismiss those whom are not. She will look for honesty, intelligence, integrity patience, good communication, good friendship, and good goals rather than someone who is OK to fill a void.

Dre'

Ummm..Keme, what did you mean "Polyannaish"? I don't understand what that term means and what relevance it has to the context of the previously intellectual comments made on this topic?

I never can understand why you continue to speak in generalities and make such broad sweeping statements that can apply to almost anything in life.

"Many never get past the pain and continue the pattern or just plain quit." True, but what's your point?

"Assuming there is nothing out there." Why make an assumption about nothing?

Kem--

I agree with you completely. You asked why women continue to commit to dogs. So I answered. Then you answered almost too...people just plain give up. That doesn't make it right. But, it is an answer to your question.

Keme, you asked: "Why is a woman knowingly committing to a dog?"

Dre' replied: "Women are committing to dogs because they have issues that they have not dealt with ;self-esteem, pain, insecurity, self-love or patience. In many cases women are taking the first average looking man that has SOME of the qualities that they look for in a man because they are just tired of being alone."

Offering a woman's perspective, I will agree with Dre' but would also add this: It might be possible that SOME women just like men who have the qualities that you call a "dog". Now it's true these types of women may have all or some of the qualities that Dre' has described already, but still, some might not and still like a "dog." Don't you think that's possible?

I think very often when we observe people who exhibit traits/behaviors that we consider questionable, maybe dysfunctional, and so different from our value system, we have a tendency to assume they have some deep psychological or emotional problems. I'm not sure that's always the case. Why can't some perfectly sane and stable person simply like being a **** or "dog" and at the same time, why can't these same types of people simply exercise their right to choose to be with someone like them? Isn't there several sayings that ring true to explain this, one being: "Birds of a feather, flock together"?

HOWEVER, I also agree there are those described by Dre' (the perpetual whiners and do nothing about it kind of people). But I also wanted to offer another perspective and possible explanation.

Whatcha think?

Queen--

I am inclined to agree with you on the matter of some of those people just wanted to be a dog and wanting to be with a dog ....I would say to that....Then leave me alone about it. When the man or the woman starts complaining to me..my response will be; if that is what you want (which you are demonstrating that it is by your willingness to stay) then quit bitchin about it...or at least not to me.

Dre'...

The power to choose doesn't get the recognition or the respect it deserves, IMO. It is probably the single most powerful tool that we have and we underplay it in our daily living. It's rich with possibilities and it has either freeing power or it can imprison you. It all depends on the choices you make.

It's not a commodity that only belongs to the rich or the white. Everything that we do requires that a decision be made. How can anyone in America say, "I didn't have a choice." There are always options or alternatives. The only choice we don't have is whether to be born, but we have the choice as to whether to live or die. That leaves a lot of room in between and a lot of other choices available to us to make.

Choosing to be with someone when you're unhappy with them, is an independent decision. The simple truth is that once you choose, you have no "right" to complain. Not really. When the choices have been made and you still complain, you're exhibiting qualities of insanity. One definition of insanity that I've heard is, when you continue to do the same things over and over again but expect different results. The logic just doesn't work.

So people should exercise their right to choose and stop complaining about the results if they aren't what they want. When that happens, don't complain, just make a different choice and move on.

:toast: And you know this!!!! Queen.