Looking at the political and social history of Blacks in America, any change that took place on a grand scale on behalf of Blacks always seemed to be led by people that were called "leader". More recently, King, Malcolm (Nation of Islam) and even the Panthers were able to attract worldwide attention for Blacks in America. They did things that made a difference for the Black condition. They are either no longer with us or play a prominent role and there doesn't appear to be a single person that has surfaced since to be the voice of the Black community. A few have attempted, but none have caught fire like the others mentioned.

Do you think the Black community is in need of a "leader" today and who would you suggest that might be?

Maybe you think we already have a leader(s), if so, who?

Could a Black woman be a powerful and persuasive leader for Blacks in modern America?

u're wrong for not including Bill Clinton :D

you know what? l think the aforementioned leaders were needed for such times that we presently don't live in.

l think now we don't need a leader(s) and that we are in a place where we can be independent of a leader.

lol@Bill Clinton...we won't talk about who felt the impact from his "administration" moreso than others...

So you don't think that the challenges Blacks face today warrant some form of mass movement behind a single leader? That's an interesting perspective.

Well then do you think there's a single cause that Blacks can rally around independently as opposed to collectively, particularly one that will have a far reaching impact? Do you know of any racial/ethnic group that has ever succeeded at such a thing in modern history?

Personally, I can't see how Blacks can act independent of each other to make a difference for us all without having a common cause to rally around or have someone (call it a leader if you will) guiding the movement. If that was the case, then are we having such difficulty today? Sure we can all do our share as individuals but shouldn't we be working toward a common goal and how would we know what that goal was if there wasn't someone overseeing that the message was communicated to everyone.

What do you think?

indeed we can be our own independent leader we havew become
more open then ever but yes i do still feel a great leader to face
da nation of blacks are needed to confront the mask of these
times today
now i see a few who can spark fire and yes i see a woman
with a strong force to lead our people into a new venue

Bill was the latest know for us not in the shin but the whole
heart he was of our well beings leading full force til his rupted
mask cover him as always they come to de throne hope


but yes we can use a new leadership

Hey there PAN...

Isn't that the purpose of our community churches? Aren't they a form of organization, among other things, geared toward our liberation...for people who want to work to improve themselves and help their fellow members? Aren't they doing a good job?

Even organizations have to have someone at the helm leading its members. Everyone can't be speaking for the group or there's a risk that the groups's message might get diluted or lost. And I'm drawing my opinion from watching how organizations such as The Black Panther Party and the Black Muslims have operated. I think I understand your point though about not needing a single individual leading us. But regardless of whether it's one person or an organization, there has to be a cause, a structured plan and some ability to mobilize that plan. Who's going to deliver the message?

Do you think a Black liberation movement can be effective today?

NNQueen,
we have to ask ourselves
. what is our common goal? (as you stated)
. why is it our goal?
. who or what group is eligible to lead it?
. what are we hoping to achieve?

hmmm... l presume that our biggest issue is family, it's dysfunction and divide.... Who would we "elect"... who could we elect for such a private and spiritual entity as family?

But if l had to choose a particular issue up for improvement, l would say it would be history awareness. l bet then, we wouldn't have as many people saying "****** and *****" all the time.

l think there should be schools set up by us to specifically teach our generation and older the black history of the bible, of Africa,
Egypt, lsrael all the way down to America. Most of all, l dare say, We should teach them the ways of Christ.

peace NN

j'hiah, I agree that we need to determine what our common goal(s) are before we can do anything to advance or improve our social condition. But first that requires that we know ourselves individually before we can do anything collectively.

On an educational level, learning and getting in touch with our history is another point I agree with, and I don't mean just studying history of the slave trade and when we set foot on American soil. True, we might not know the specific communities of our ancestors, but what would it hurt to learn about the original peoples and where we all came from?

In order to go forward we might need to take a step back first. How can you know where you want to go unless you know your past? Sure we might be able to make choices without that knowledge and many people do. But I think as you get older and, hopefully, more enlightened, we discover how important that information is to us. It completes us. That might be a reason why children who are adopted tend to seek out their birth parents. They need that connection.

On emotional and spiritual levels, I agree that we also need a spiritual connection with our Creator to seek knowledge and understanding about ourselves as spiritual beings.

But what exactly do you think it is that our history can teach us that will make a difference to people today? Have our hearts been so hardened by this modern society that we don't care anymore?

I hope this makes sense...

you need to go into politics girlie :)

NNQ has my vote :D

peace

poeticd

Yes we need a leader(s) or some type of organization for us to unite and/or just get the people stop and think. This reminds me of the story of about a bundle of sticks. It is simple to break a single twig but many together is not so easy. With numbers comes power. There are too many side battles going on.

Furthermore, people need to leave their religon at home because once it comes up there will disagreements between the masses. Even brotha Malcolm said leave your religon at home. It will only divide us not unite.

I say the main priority is education.
People donot plan to fail they just fail to plan.

Nfant...I like the stick analogy...good point. I think you're right, people's religious beliefs should not enter into any conversation that tries to find some common ground because we don't all have the same religious beliefs. On that same note, what do you think about politics? We don't all agree on that front either. Is that another topic that shouldn't enter the picture? I don't see how it couldn't, but maybe someone else can.

lol@poe...politicians scare me!!

We have so many leaders right now. They might not be like the malcolm and martin but we are all leaders in our own right we all have ajob to do. We cannot limit ourselves to believing that just because so and so has not "caught fire" means they are not a leader you are a leader and so is everyone else who is dedicated

Rain, you're absolutely right. There are leaders already among us that are dedicated, motivated and doing great things in our communities. I think it wouldn't be difficult for any of us to think of one person who would fall in that category. But I was speaking of someone more on the national level that could serve as a "general" (if you will) to inspire those qualities in us on a larger scale. To mass mobilize an agenda, be it political, social, educational, or economic, that we could all stand behind and press forward together.

But like someone has already stated, maybe you agree that we don't need such a person or even an organization to help pull us together to become a unified force working toward a common goal. Is it possible that we can do it alone...individually...and make a greater or minimally, an equal impact?

Nfant_De_Milieu said "Furthermore, people need to leave their religion at home because once it comes up there will be disagreements between the masses. Even brother Malcolm said leave your religion at home. lt will only divide us not unite us."

you could not have been more blind with this comment.
People operate by faith and belief, just as "brotha Malcolm".
He took his religion with him all the way to Mecca back to the Harlem ball room so your comment was ignorant (no pun).

And religion is not the only podium of disagreement.
Christ is an experience not a religion.

dun, people hate to bring up faith b/c the world has none.

peace.

I agreed with Nfant because some of us know all too well that there are some among us who believe that their spiritual beliefs (including religion) is THE only way and have no tolerance for others who are not like them. People who have such opinions can be arrogant, condescending, prejudicial, judgmental and discriminating. This attitude and behavior can be extremely destructive as well as divisive. When that happens, everything else good that you're trying to work toward often comes to a screeching halt. We know that people will "come to the table" with many different points of view drawn from their own set of values, beliefs and experiences. When I agreed with Nfant, I'm not saying that people should turn their backs on their own personal beliefs, but when it becomes a part of an agenda that should be inclusive and not exclusive, issues always arise unless everyone is in agreement with that perspective. I also disagree that people hate to bring up faith because the world has none. There are people in the world that have faith and are faithful to their beliefs. In my opinion, those that do don't always see a need to go around talking about it in every venue. A person's faith can be witnessed by the things they do as well.

I agree great topic

This topic has raised a few questions. I will attempt to be clear but breif.

We do need a leader. The reason we need a leader is because--sadly-- most of us are followers. We seek to make things as easy as possible in our lives and it is VERY difficult to lead. There is responsiblity and scrutiny that comes with the territory that most of us are not strong enough to handle so even being our own leaders becomes a chore. I do believe we have the strengh, courage, intelligence, and resolve to bring about change. What we don't have someone that brings out the best in us at the helm of an organization that has positive change as its singular goal. If it were not the case that we need leader(s) the black panther party would not have had a steady and fast decline once the leaders were taken from them. As far as the churches go, unfortunately most have the advancement of their own church or organization as their goal...not the liberation of our people. Because, if liberation were the key they would put aside their difference to further the cause. There were no denominations in the civil rights movements..and even though there were "clicks" in the panther party they all were striving for the same goals. That is not the case for churches.

As for the education...of course we need to know our past in order to know where we are going, but i feel like it is much more important to know where we want to go. It doesn't matter where I have been if I have no idea where im trying to go. Our problem is lack of focus. If we all started right now to teach our children to honor their ancestors by taking responsiblity for themselves AND OTHERS. We HAVE gotten away from family and community. But, when we were at our strongest as a black community we did not have a singular focus on intergrity and econmics. Because when you get right down to it ALMOST every problem we have in our black community can be solved by economic change. Money is not everything ...but it affect everything that is important to us. We need to educate our youth and empower them to educate themselves about how to make money, how to manage money, and most importantly how to use money to affect change for our people because right now the priority is to floss and bling bling.

This bling-bling thing is crazy. Todays youth is too caught up in social status, who you with, or what you have. I always try to talk to these young cats to forget about those "Air Force 1s" and ascertain that Calculus 1. I know that the stock market is down but donot let televison fool you. If you are invest in foreign currency, such as the Euro, you are making some money right now!! Either you know or you donot.

My suggestion for leaving your religon at home, not abondoning it though, came from my interpretation of Malcolm's speech,"The Ballot or the Bullet".


I'm not here to argue or discuss anything that we differ about, because it's time for us to submerge our differences and realize that it is best for us to first see that we have the same problem, a common problem, a problem that will make you catch hell whether you're a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Muslim, or a nationalist.


I do agree with you Jhiah about that people donot want to bring up faith because many have none. Although, being a scientist and knowing other scientist, not all people operate on faith and belief. Sometimes facts and scientific theory guides people. I know many scientist who are atheist.

the scripture even says "only a fool would say there is no GOD"

THEREFORE, those scientists are among the world's list of intelligent fools.

peace

poeticd

:)

it was written :toast:

Nfant and Dre', good feedback.

Dre...I agree with your first paragraph. I think leaders are important and can play a key role in a group's efforts to be heard, taken seriously and to advance an agenda on a small scale as well as a large scale. Leaders are only leaders if they have followers. Leaders speak for themselves and other people who agree with them. Effective leaders can take groups of people and form a cohesive unit around a concept or a cause. Parents are leaders, teachers are leaders, politicians are leaders, ministers are leaders, etc. Separately they can be effective in their own right, but when they come together for a common purpose, I think they become more powerful. To speak on their behalf, they most likely will select from among them, a leader to spread their message.


Also, I understand your point about knowledge of our past versus knowing where you want to go. But a question occurred to me as I read that. Why should one be more important than the other? I came to the opinion that if you want a future that is truly meaningful, neither should be mutually exclusive of the other, they are both essential.

Don't you think that oftentimes some of us lack vision because we don't have a clue as to who we are and where we came from? We're just living for the moment, good, bad, or indifferent. So how can we decide where we want to go if we know nothing about how we got where we are? When a person develops wisdom, does that wisdom come from their dreams of where they want to be or does it come from past experiences?

I'm thinking that we agree in principle and where we might differ doesn't matter as long as we agree that both perspectives are important.

Maybe we need to start a new thread for the point that Nfant and Dre raised about the bling blinging and flossing that seems to be prevalent in our communities because this could be another good topic.

I don't think the "bling bling" concept is confined to our youth but I do think that it might be more pervasive among the younger urban population. I work on a large midwestern college campus and I'm constantly amazed...jaw dropping amazed...at the kinds of cars African American students drive, the labels on their clothes, salon hair/nails, but not one is ever mentioned on a distinguished scholars list at the last board meeting each year. Now, I'm not trying to put all Black students in this category but there are enough out there to make me wonder what happened and when did it happen to create this new breed?

This is a predominantly white campus/town so there's not much here in the form of social entertainment offered for Black students. In other words they have all the time in the world to study and it's not like we don't provide the educational support on this campus. We have support programs up the wazoo but still some students don't see the correlation between attending class and getting a passing grade. :eek:

Where is the $$ coming from to support these students' lifestyles? Are they living in a manner to which they are accustomed contributed to by their parents?

what is crazy is that we want to accomplish things that needs the intervention of God.

l agree that our people need focus on education, finance, management, etc...

Nfant, l agree that the same things befalls anyone of any culture, just as the Bible says.... (such conditions are also the way of life),
but that tells me that there is a deeper root to the problem.

(and trust, l'm not religious at all) but the Bible does say that the Enemy (Satan) "comes to seek all who he may devour."
culture vs. culture or culture for culture.
family vs. family or family for family
my dough is my dough yo dough is my dough :D
PARTIALITY in other words (or maybe bias.)
The enemy divides and conquers.

how can anyone
on this thread neglect the spiritual foundation that is desperately needed for the betterment of family, education, and prosperity?

Again, the world has no faith.

j'hiah...

You wrote..."how can anyone on this thread neglect the spiritual foundation that is desperately needed for the betterment of family, education, and prosperity?" From what I've been reading and writing, I don't see where anyone has neglected the importance of a spiritural foundation as long as one's personal views and beliefs aren't imposed on others who might have different beliefs. What about the atheists or agnostics? Suppose they disagree that spirituality is important but they still support and work toward the betterment of family, education and prosperity?

J'hiah-

I understand where you are coming from. Speaking only for myself with this reply, I purpose avoided sprituality and religion because people really don't want to hear what I believe..but I will address it as not to avoid it.

There are two reasons why spirituality should not be included as a focus in order to further our race. Number 1...We are not strong enough to separate our actions from those of God (or whatever higher power you believe in). God has given us free will. A freedom he believed in so much that he even gave us the ability to not believe in him. Many of us mistake our will, our plight, our failures, and even some of our successes with God's will. We attribute it to God's perfect plan. Well... that is a myth. God does have a perfect plan but it is plan for the world, that he has set forth, that plays out in stages. If it were a perfect plan for each of our lives then there would be no reason to grant us free will, because there is nothing under our control. We are not strong enough in our faith to realize that OUR actions and reactions cause of to suffer, fail, live ignorant/poor, and our successes. This belief that God is controlling all has made us lathargic in our contributions to our own success. Countless many believe that the only way that they get what they want is if God blesses them with it. Therefore, they put for very little effort because "if it is God's will I will have it". WE have to be responsible for our journey. This includes, but is not limited to our walk with God and acknowleging him for his HELP through strentgh once our journey has brought us to a point where we have become at peace.

Number 2....We can not separate spirituality from religion. Because we are men/women and it is in our nature to be selfish we twist, turn, disfigure the word of God to conform to our lifestyle so we may feel more comfortable and in our haste to feel good about our faith we have divised denominations. These denominations DIVIDE us. It has been happening since before there was a written Bible and continues to happen now. Because there is disagreement about our faiths and it is what we cling to most as our strentgh, when people disagree we us about our faith we become defensive and dissatisfied. Ultimately we begin to get side tracked by religion. When our focus becomes divided between our goal of uplifting our race and what religion we should practice we lose our affectivness. It has happened in the NAACP and all of the other organizations that get side tracked because people decide we need to become more 'spiritual'. I do agree that one should have faith and be faithful to it, but since we are nowhere close to having the same faith it only prevents us from focusing on why we came together in the first place. Being spriitual is personal...religion is for a group. Like I said before, we can not separate the two.

Queen, I do believe that both are important. The reason I gave more importance to knowing where you are going is because it is possible to have vision and get to places if you know where you are going. Let's put it in terms of us on a map. It is possilbe to get to New York from Dallas if you don't know you went through Arizona. But it is impossible to get to New York if you have know idea that it is the place where you are going or need to be.

I know that is a simplistic way to look at it, but it seems to be acurate. I do believe it is necessary to know where your history to be fullfiled when you get where you are going. I don't believe it is essential in getting there. Of course it would help and make the road less bumpy to know in advance, but it is not absolutely necessary. Let me know what you think.

NNQueen... I agree with 007 that we need a leader because the majority of us are followers. And need someone to tell us what to do, how to do it, when to do it. Maybe, because it's easier than doing the work for oneself. Or the ability to garner support may be lacking.

Of course, I think that a lot of us have some sort of leadership qualites/abilities and express them in our everyday lives: taking care of families, running households, some of the jobs we hold, businesses we run and church leadership roles.

Now on a larger political scale, some of these same people may not have the wherewithal, abilities, etc. to take a big stage to be a leader, but will know and have (should have) what it takes to support one who will.

With all the different destructions we are distracted by and have our attention, molding and directing our lives, for me, the concern would be (1) the type of support a leader would get, (2) the amount given, (3) the consistentency of support.

People rallied & flocked to and behind MLK and Malcolm. It was because they tackled issues that affected everyone and they along 'with the people' were willing to die for a better life. They wanted a better life for themselves and their children and children's children. That made them targets for destruction. Their ability to incite and maintain a strong following. We were the better for it.

My favorite scene from the movie about Malcolm X was when Malcolm went to the jail to see about one of the brothers. A group of people followed. When they were leaving, no one moved until Malcolm said so. He didn't shout' 'let's go!', or 'let's bounce!', nor 'let's get up outta here!'. But with a gesture of a finger, then everyone moved. And when they did move, it was in unison. I get choked up whenever I see that. And I think about it often. To have the ability to incite that type of unity is what made the white man say 'that's too much power for one man'.

Good discussion by the way.

Your words (NNQueen)"From what l've been reading and writing, l don't see where anybody has neglected the importance of a spiritual foundation as long as one's personal views and beliefs aren't imposed on others who might have different beliefs."

read your very positive reply to Nfant (much respect) after he quoted Malcolm X's "leave your religion at home" quotes.
leave= neglect.
A007 (respect) listed the spiritual ailment (church) and not a spiritual ingredient- neglect. (that's not to say that he wouldn't).

And by no means would l impose to force on another.,, to place/set a burden my belief on anyone here. cyberbeatdownz are not the way :D (and no kind for that matter).
However, l will say the words of Christ (not mine):
what does it profit man (leaders, groups,,) to gain (prosper) the world (desires, focuses) and lose their soul (God's will, the Spirit within, life).

There is a way to have one and not lose the other for the sake of balance (God hates imbalance) and that way is Christ b/c he is the only one out of so many people and beliefs who didn't limit his teachings, miracles and focus to one single culture, group, or gender as we do today (and he was extremely educated).

and then your other words "What about the atheists or agnostics? Suppose they disagree that spirituality is important but they still support and work toward the betterment of family, education and prosperity"?

they can work towards it but again "what does it profit man to gain the world and lose your soul."- Christ.

lt's not really the subject of family, education or prosperity, it's who is the Creator and there is 1 and only 1 Creator with expectation "to whom much is given much is required"

lt is going to take more than family, education and money to make the world a better place, trust.

love.

Anana...I agree, great discussion flowing here and your comments, as usual, were right on point.

Let's see, where do I begin...you all have my brain sweatin'...*lol*

Dre'....topic of spirituality and religion, I'm in complete agreement.

j'hiah...I have nothing but respect for you! You are obviously deeply rooted in your beliefs and I applaud you for that. I don't think that I can express my thoughts any better on this point than what Dre' (A007) has already explained. But you know what? In the end, we all have to do what we believe is important and best. To me, this is not about who is right or who is wrong.

Dre', on the topic of the importance of knowledge, for the most part, I'm agreeing with you and I'm not sure exactly where we're disagreeing at this point except to say that, I still think that the more information you have, makes your goal achievements that much sweeter.

I agree, you don't NEED to know the past in order to know where you want to go. I'm sure there are many people who have gotten where they are without knowing where they came from (good and bad). No argument there. But I still believe equipping yourself with that knowledge, helps a person to focus better on the "right" target, set better goals, gives you stronger armor to get you through the difficult times that lie ahead, helps you to better identify obstacles and gives you tools to clear the hurdles.

I'm willing to concede that knowing one's past is more of a quality enhancer as opposed to an absolute necessity. So if one's vision about where they want to go can be vastly improved being armed with knowledge of who they are, which option would you choose?

Whatcha think? :D

J'hiah

I agree with you 100 percent. It is going to take more than family, education, and money to make the world a better place.
However, I thought we were talking in terms of needing a leader to help us prosper while we are here. In that regard, It is not advisable to mix religion with wordly prosperity. The dissention in religious beliefs will always undermine the goal of the organization. Take the Nation Of Islam for example. There were factions created when Malcom came back from Mecca enlightened. The differences in beliefs and split leadership cause the Nation to lose most of its power to affect cultural, political, and economic change. So maybe the answer would be to have a leader/organization to lead us in for social change and a different leader to spur us to have spiritual growth. Mixing the two has never worked before so why would it work now. It profits a man nothing to gain the world and lose his soul. So maybe they worldly gains should be kept separate from the heavenly gains as long as the worldly gains do not hinder us from gaining and growing spiritually.

Dre'

Queen--

Well put. To answer your question, I would choose knowing the past for all of those great reasons you gave. But let's face it most are not as smart as you and I...just kididng...lol:D

much love

Dre'

l think you all are great with good intention.

l enjoyed this and maybe will comment again..

good topic NNQueen and l enjoyed it to the fullest :toast:

I think that what we do hear in the discussion forums helps us all to become leaders, the past leaders paved the way
for us to empower each other. we are all leaders, what I take away from boards like this is new ideas new ways of thinking
new friends, strength when I have none of my own when my back is agents the wall I have my bothers and sisters hear
to help guide me in the right direction. when I go out in to the real world I take what I have learned and apply it, today I reach out where once I was afraid.

I think that what we do hear in the discussion forums helps us all to become leaders, the past leaders paved the way
for us to empower each other. we are all leaders, what I take away from boards like this is new ideas new ways of thinking
new friends, strength when I have none of my own when my back is agents the wall I have my bothers and sisters hear
to help guide me in the right direction. when I go out in to the real world I take what I have learned and apply it, today I reach out
where once I was afraid.

I agree this board is a blessing in disguise. I often read and try to interpet what the females posters write. Just trying to find an interface with females to better relations among us. It is easier to ask for help where in other situtations a person may feel akward or emabarassed to ask. There are also other cats up here who are good connoisuers. I know I use to associate with this one sistah and she was always a little to nice too other males in my presents, in my opinion too friendly, or maybe I was being too over protective. Then one day I was reading in Mike Ramey's column and came across something topic about women. In the passage it had something about how a sistah cannot show her teeth to everybody. It is not always the person who gives the best advice, sometimes it is the person who makes you stop and think.

are appointed into office?

all glory and honor must be given where
credit is due and that is GOD

he runs this show :D

peace

:)

Hey PD, do you believe in the theory of "Evolution"? Not to pick at you, just trying to see from your point view and to see if you are open-minded to other ideas.

:toast: poetic delight...
l definitely feel you, though others may not...

love.

Nfant (respect), not that l'm trying to speak up for her (she can very well speak for herself), but l think just b/c you believe in God doesn't make you close-minded or narrow-minded to your surrounding.
lt is possible to hear, understand and be open to other ideas and disagree w/o imposing judgement.

Many consider those who love and proclaim their God to be "closed" to other views. WRONG!
lt could be that whoever thinks such, is close-minded themselves.

the scriptures say "only a fool would say there is no GOD"

therefore, i won't entertain the theory of evolution

peace

poeticd

:)

"seek not that of your own understanding but for the Lord to lead and guide you"

there will come a time in your life when you will lean on the word of the scriptures for support and refuge from what ails you in your life

people who bring up the topic of evolution usually are seeking that of their own understanding to see if Jesus is real and from
my personal experience in life i know he's real his great works of
love lives and reigns within each one of us we are all a living testament of his love

you may not see it now but the Lord has done great things for you-don't entertain the foolish suggestions of the people in this world who seek the truth but are blind in their own mind

the test of time will reveal to you that the scriptures bear truth

:heart:

Ummm..are we still discussing whether we need a leader or are we on the topic of evolution versus creation theories?

"People who bring up the topic of evolution usually are seeking that of their own understanding to see if Jesus is real."

Poe, I don't think that is always true. I don't believe that everyone that raises the subject of evolution is usually seeking to understand whether Jesus is real. To those that claim to be Christians (I would like to think) believe that he was here in the flesh, was crucified and rose from the dead. I don't think the question of evolution has anything to do with Jesus but has been an issue among evolutionists who question the power and existence of God as a spiritual-head because it is written that He created the world. They believe in the "big bang" theory...and you probably know the rest.

That's just my two cents on that topic.

your cousin NM brought it up

NNQ if people were not trying to disprove the word of the scripture, then they would not even be entertaining the science of evolution

in my opinion, i feel that they want evidence or proof that a GOD does in fact exist and is responsible for all creation

if people truly had faith and trust in the word of the Bible they would not continuously go into outerspace through our space program and risk their lives to defy the written word if GOD is the beginning and the end then what good will all the research do to extend life and start new life on other planets

if GOD is the center of all creation, then their efforts will prove to be useless if GOD has a sudden change in plans for his creation

for instance, the tower of Babylon was built to reach heaven and was destroyed and not one single man for ages has ever tried to do that again but we'll take a short space expedition in a heartbeat

now, why is that? is it because of they're pure fear of GOD? but that couldn't be b/c they believe in the theory of evolution right.

please, deep down in their hearts they want to believe, yet it's like they're doing all of these things simply to entertain themselves in this life

i'm done entertaining the very thought :)

pd

I respect everyone's rightful opinion. Oh, and I didn't realize I had a new member of my family...Nfant...*lol* I'll accept that as a compliment too, by the way.

Peace!

Some people think Blacks need to get organized and come together politically. Others argue that unity can't be achieved unless Blacks come together spiritually as well. Then there are those that think Blacks don't need to be led at all because we're all "leaders". Personally, I think we need a leader if we really want to improve the condition of Blacks on a massive scale. So, we might need to stop doing what we've always done if we don't want what we've always gotten.

Bold efforts to unite as a people have been attempted in the past and some that were launched, were successful in their mission, but only up to a point. Eventually something happened to erode their foundation--scandal, government infiltration, mismanagement, greed, petty jealousies, to name a few--and they either crashed and burned or they still exist but aren't able to effectively do the job.

On the other hand, White feminists seem to have had more success in sustaining their political agenda than organizations built around race. Sure, there's the N.A.A.C.P., but let's be honest, how many of us are members and what is it focused on?

Feminists have been able to maintain and keep their focus on an organized agenda. They've managed to win a few battles, they've lost a few...haven't been without their scandals or in-fighting, but they still have a huge following, even claiming some women of color among their ranks.

The National Organization of Women (NOW) to name one such organization, continues to stay in front on political issues and is visible on many levels covering many issues that impact women. They don't claim to speak for ALL women but how much difference does that really make as long as they succeed in being heard and get what they want?

I use NOW and feminists as a point of comparison to Blacks in America because our histories in the "struggle" for freedom and equality seem to parallel one another.

I think Blacks do need a leader and I don't necessarily mean one person. An organization comprised of people with a common purpose and a people-centered goal, can be a "leader", in my opinion. But the organizations of the past might not be what we need today. Not entirely.

What will it take?

Good Topic!

I think the Black community lacks leadership because there is no crisis in the community that requires a leader.
When a people are in real crisis, leaders emerge.

During the Civil Rights Movement we were all united behind one common goal: Freedom.
Now that freedom has arrived and everyone has their forty acres and a mule (in todays figures it comes out to 1.5 acres and a Expedition, or Escalade for you true ballers) the movement has stalled.

Sure, there are causes we could unite behind:

Teen Pregnancy (but my daughter is a good girl she doesn't do stuff like that)

Apathy In Government (why should I vote? They do what they want to do anyway)

The Spread of Aids (It don't feel as good with it on...plus I know he/she is clean)

Education

But we don't unite because those causes don't stir us up...

When we reach a real crisis again...leaders will emerge.

BESSED LOVE

NNQEEN your topic is VVVVVVVVEEEEEEEERRRRRRYYYYYYYY IMPORTANT

To me the only way to our liberation is to KNOW AND TO AKNOWLEGE MARCUS GARVEY.
There is nothing new under the sun.
With his teachings, we can elavate our selves, as individuals,and then as a nation.
When u listen to GARVEY u find out, that he is talking to u, to those before u and also to the ones that are comming .
GARVEY is the LIBERATOR, teaches us to be our own leader.
REMEMBER WE NEED NO ONE BETWEEN US AND OUR CREATOR, CAUSE HE DWELL IN US, WHEN U DO GOOD IT IS YAHWEH(GOD) WHO MANIFESTED HIM SELF THROUGH U.
WHEN U DO WRONG IT IS SATAN THAT'S MANIFESTED ITSELF TROUGH U.
SO WE SHOULD CLEAN, HEAL, PURIFY,BLESS OUR HEART, MIND, SOUL AND SPIRIT FOR THE CREATOR TO DWELL IN US FOR US TO BE ABBLE TO ACCOMPLISH RIGHTEOUSNESS IN LIFE AS INDIVIDUALS AS WELL AS A NATION

PEACE MY KINGS AND QUEENS.

QUEEN RISUPNOW

PS:correct my english

s-jerard...you knows mah peoples very well...:D *lol*

But you are so right..."When we reach a real crisis again...leaders will emerge." I'm just wondering what we view as a crisis. If freedom used to be what most Blacks wanted and they managed to rally the troops and get behind a mass movement toward that goal, then what happened? What did we want to be freed from and have we achieved it?

Is all that we wanted was to live where "they" lived, eat where they ate, ride the bus the same as they did, go to their schools and be treated at their hospitals? Is all that we wanted was to be able to look them in the eye and not the ground when we greeted them? We just wanted to mix and mingle with "them"?

Curiously, we don't seem to mind going to predominantly white schools to receive an education, but how many of us attend predominantly white churches? Just a thought that crossed my mind as I thought about this.

Crisis? s-jerard...the list you made is about life and death...death to the mind and death to the body and possibly the spirit. And for those reasons we don't see a need to form a coalition one again...heck, for no other reason than to just survive?

Riseupnow, my sister...your passion should be contagious! For those that read and focus on grammar and spelling, RUN is not from America.

Thank you both for responding.

:toast:

I think the decimation of the Black family needs to be our first concern...through building a strong family the economic gains will become a reality.

We need several people to serve as leaders (and to cooperate with one another in their various projects)... not just one person leading the masses. Furthermore, people must look to find the leader within themselves. When I dive into activism projects, I sometimes find myself being sickened by the backlash I get from my own people. Nobody passed Martin and Malcolm a torch!


That's my brief bit. :)


GCB

As was mentioned earlier, we have many leaders, on diffent levels of the struggle. We must continue to appreciate all of our different leaders, like wise we must continue to support our leaders.

Farrakan, Joyner, Sharpton, and Smiley, are extremely different individuals that focus on different aspects of our struggle, but they are all high profile, we must also remember leaders that are not as high in profile.

Each member that particiapates in this forum must also be considered a leader, if only for the fact that they are making statements that will continue to be read, said, and repeated for days, weeks and years to come.

Lead on my Brothers and Sisters.

Peace Queen,

to a certain extent i do believe we need REAL leaders, but to an even greater extent i believe The God within us serves as a righteous leader for self when we take time to listen within...

those were effective leaders you mentioned and yes, i do believe we have a leader in our midst now... Minister Louis Farrakhan...
yes there are others but to me he's the main one standing out and speaking out for us... bowing down to know man... fearing noone but God...i believe he is truly a FREE BLACK MAN and would never sell his people out...

Nadia, thank you for your post and welcome to the forum.

". . . to a certain extent i do believe we need REAL leaders, but to an even greater extent i believe The God within us serves as a righteous leader for self when we take time to listen within..."

I agree.

You know, I've read and considered all of the opinions expressed here and they certainly vary to some (sometimes even a large) degree. There are certainly those high profile "leaders" that JT_A and others, including myself, mentioned. But we also know there are less well-known people out in our communities that are leading as well.

There are some who are of the opinion that African Americans and Blacks in the diaspora should come together--unite, if you will. As JT_A wrote, and I agree, there are people like Farrakhan, Joyner, Sharpton, and Smiley, Mfume, who are extremely different individuals that focus on different aspects of our struggle. Knowing that, how is it possible that we could ever feasibly unite as a people?

Maybe we're focusing too much on the men and not their messages. Should we realize that there will always be small details that we'll never all agree to, but there are larger issues that we can because we all have something in common which is our original heritage? Are there Blacks anywhere in the world that haven't experienced racism, displacement, invasion, anarchy or alienation to some degree?

There has to be a common thread that binds us that we can see and rally around. Are we all fighting for the same thing?

Just some rambling thoughts...

As we approach the next presidential campaign, there are a mixed group of individuals vying for the oval office in the White House. (Why not call it the presidential estate...but the "white" house?) Anyway, I digress...

Al Sharpton is in the race. Over the past several years his name has been prominently displayed around issues involving race and social injustice. He's gone to jail and fasted in support of his principles and beliefs. Or was it just a political ploy?

I'll admit, I don't know that much about Al. Oh, I've seen him on tv, heard him talked about, but I really don't know him well enough to say at this point in time, that I can or will vote for him.

Certainly, because I believe that all who can should vote, I think it's important that we know as much about all the candidates as possible before punching a card or pulling a lever in a voting booth. I will study Al more closely in the days ahead.

Those that know more about him--not just what he's doing in the news ttoday now that he's a presidential candidate--but his past and his history and his record on issues, etc.--what do you think of him? Is he a leader we can push forward and put in the chair of the highest office in this country?

BELOVED, all to often we seem to buy into the wrong information. How many times have you heard someone begin a conversation saying, “The slaves who came to Amerika?” or, “But we came here as slaves!” The moment you here anything like this again, you should immediately smack them in their mouths. Why? Because slaves did not come the Amerikas, Afrikans did, and they were ‘made into slaves’. Our history does not begin with slavery in the so-called New World. It is far more ancient than that. It took a brutal seasoning process to transform a free Afrikan citizen into a chattel slave. Slavery is but a period where our lifestyle was disrupted.

So too, many people have brought into what I like to call an ‘Inverted Second Coming’. They simply say “Don’t worry about anything, God is in control!” But, how are you supposed to get to heaven, least you fight to remove the hell from your life on this earth? Because, even if you get there, how the hell are you suppose to know the difference? Remember, faith is an action word!

Along those same lines, is the idea of messianic leadership. Who is the Black leader? This idea, in many ways, had been somewhat foreign to Blackfolk for over four thousand years, and I have always considered it a ruse. For centuries, although a fiqurehead of some sort did always exist no doubt, in the traditional afrikan scheme of things, institutions were not simply governed by the personality of one indiviual. They were governed by a set of principles, and it is principled organization that had made many an empire successful. The contemporary model of this could be seen in The Black Panthers and their Ten Point Program, or The Malcom X Grassroots, and The New Afrikan Independence Movements and their Seven Principles Of Organizational Unity. Like I said, messianic leadership is a ruse, postulated upon the Black nation. The idea is, to stack upon one man, the full measure the people’s aspirations, so that when you decide to slay the aspirations of the people, all one need do is to cut off the head!

I strongly believe we do Queenie

The times have changed since Malcolm and Martin we are now in a glamorous world with glamorous things. Our children are truly caught up in this world. They want it quick fast and in a hurry if that leader isnt blinding u with jewelry or cars or the womans body parts arent hanging out they dont see it. So we need someone with that cross over appeal like Malcolm and Martin to win over their hearts and make them believe.

Russell Simmons is doing good things he is just not the aforementioned two persons. He is appealing to our kids and the community.

Farrakhan alot of folks dont want to follow him because he is Muslim and they are baptist catholic etc.. Farrakhans basis I think would be very good for our people.

Sharpton is a excellent speaker he goes after good causes. I truly dont understand why he isnt more popular with our people.

I cant really think of a woman at this point that is at the fore front of empowerment for our people.

Just my opinion

We need someone to voice our agenda--- whenever we decide what that agenda is. Martin and Malcolm were mere spokemen for us... Martin spoke for those of us who thought constructively during the time--- they were smart enough to not give their hard earned money to be relegated to the back of the bus... but they dropped the ball when, instead of building and or buying their own restaurants etc... in their own communities... they died to sit and eat and give there money to Whites and others...
Malcom spoke for mainly the young and the tired who decided that by any means necessary--- an eye for an eye, etc... and in many cases it worked, but they did not see how in some areas that made them like their oppressors.... if anything can be learned from Malcolm, and what I look to him for is --- I don't have to hate "You" to love myself...

Farrakhan-- preaches self-reliance, that is what can be taken;
the Black Muslims saved many of our men and boys from lives of destruction and self-hatred.... but they seemed to have stopped, why? Is it because federal funds stop being given, is it because my love for my brother is dependent upon how much money I can get for loving him enough to help?

Jesse- is a voice that is always heard... it seems that he has veered off the path; a little, by putting his will before the will of his people... I just wish and pray that he would get back on the path; because his voice can and does make a difference.

Al- is smarter than I think most of us know... he too, gets his voice heard... but too many times he too, let's himself get veered off into nothingness... he like Jesse can transcend their roles in out community if they ever decide to focus....

NAACP still does some good things.... but they too, unfortunately, are not focused on what the community as a whole needs.. and that is a revamping of what we need and what we want, and how we want to get it...

Our contemporary "Voicers" are not focused, and have not coalitioned with each other; and if they want to continue in those rolls they have to refocus and do it now, or we are going to get lost in the shuffle of this everchanging world of ours.

They have to stop fighting for everyone else... not stop empathizing with whatever plight others may incur, but use their energies and abilities to help our community... they seemingly, are the only ones doing that...

We each, too have to become leaders in our own right. We have to look and listen to ourselves and each other.... it should not take anyone telling us how to react to things that happens to us... it should be inate..... and we have to decide on whose behalf, and for what reasons our persons are being used....

For example, and this is just my opinion, Al has no right to say that the Black Community is enraged at what happened to that African Immigrant in New York.... he doesn't have the right to say what the Black Community will or will not do b/c of what happened--- that is what I mean when I say, we have to decide who and what are our fights.... I did not hear Al say, the African community in NY was going to do this or that, or not do this or that because of what happened to that lady who was scared to death by NYPD.

Until we do that, and relearn resilience and restraint--- whether we have "leaders" speaking for us or not... we are lost.

In the thread, "wake up", I think this is proof of the effectiveness of "unity" that the Black community frequently criticizes itself for not demonstrating.

I also believe that this republican coalition demonstrates how important is to have a "leader" when you have a political agenda and want it implemented effectively. Many voices being represented by one that is powerful enough to be heard and listened to.

Sure, we can all do our thing on a grass roots level in our communities, but what is each individual's master plan for spreading or multiplying the impact of what is being done beyond our communities or isn't this important? Don't you think that what we each do indivdually should be a microcosm of what's happening on a national, international scale for Black people? Threads only become cloth when they are woven together and then they become stronger.

All African Americans will not be a part of the final cloth, just as all whites aren't a part of the republican agenda. But every Black person should take racism seriously and join together to fight against it.

MHO!

Minister Farrakhan is a great leader, a fearless leader but my understanding is that he does not want us to follow him. He wants us to follow his message which he got from Elijah Muhammad. "Do for Self"

How long are we going to complain about how these people do not want us to prosper. We must follow the seperatist, nationalistic spirit of the Nation and pan-africanism. It is our only hope for survival.

pdiane...thank you for your post. I have a few questions. In regard to Min. Farrakhan,

Do you think he's as effective today as he was 10-15 years ago?

What do you see as some of his strengths and what are some of his weaknesses?

How do you think he is perceived in the general Black population?

I analyze that everyday. As I grow and become more knowledgeable about our history and culture, I am not sure if the patriachal religions of Islam, Christianity, Judism and the rest is the answer for our people. I would like so the Nation evolve to more afro-centric, kemetan way of life. but of course that is my opinion.

I have come to realize that we had and have a spiritual system that incorporates women and that our ancestors felt that one had to come through a woman, the mother, to trully be great and balanced (Maat).

Ministers Farrkhan always says that he is student of the Hon. Elijah Muhammad, so to me he will never stray from the patriachal teachings of Elijah or Islam. That is certainly his perogative. However, I have the greatest respect for the work the the NOI does in the community. Although it may be patrichal, the organization does not advocate the abuse demonization of Black woman. Woman also hold key positions within the organization although I see lots of room for improvement. This is key.

The media has been successful in minimizing the effectiveness of the NOI, leaving us to question it, but if we delve into what the organization does, with the Final Call, its farm land, its prison program, securing our communities etc. we must give it our praise and support.

I think we should support them in every way we can. Dr. Ben Jochannan saw it fit to give the Minister his library, much to the dismay of afro-centrics. But I think the Dr. Ben sees something in the Minister, as I, that is beautiful, fearless, strong and profound. yet not perfect.

I think that anyone who criticises that NOI, doesn't have a clue of what it does in the cummuniity and in Hip HOp for that matter.

I hope that we all can learn to be independent thinkers and not let the white media brainwash us.

pdiane, thank you for the feedback. Please, if you can, give more detail about what you think are the strengths/weaknesses of the NOI and/or Min. Farrakan.

What types of things is the NOI doing for the Black community and where can it improve?

What do you see is the greatest barrier for the NOI and what are some of the criticisms hurled at it and how does it deal with them?

Since integration, black people have been inundated with the idea of the "melting pot" coupled with the belief that material wealth is the key to freedom and happiness.

One or a few leaders for the many won't work as well as it did before, because we are facing the same foundational issues but with different frames. Therefore, our approach will have to contain the same force but with different methods.

Effective leadership will start within the homes, the neighborhoods, the organizations, the schools where the problems begin. Actually, that is how the civil rights movement began, even though they ended up giving in rather than moving on. We know better now.

YES we do need leaders!

The problems is that too many people believe that leadership is a charismatic leader calling all the shots.

That isn't going to work.

What we need is a national movement with hundreds of leaders at the local level, and a whole lot of solidarity.

The leadership can come together, and work out ideas democratically. No one person has all the answers.

That is what happened in the civil rights movement. We all know the big names, but nothing would have happened without all those no-named individuals who volunteered their time.

Stick a fork in the charismatic leader idea - IT'S DONE!

People have the most ridiculous reason for choosing a leader.

Many of these dudes have no ideas, but receive support because they are funny, look good, and can talk jive to the people.

Give me a break!

Lostinthought---

I agree with you on the fact that we need local leaders to champion our grass root causes as well as get together with others community leaders and form an agenda based on democratic discussion.

The question is....Why is it so hard for that to take place in this day and age?

Is it because MOST are followers and NEED a M.L. King or Malcolm X to believe in and follow?

Many believe that we have achieved all that we can through group action. We are now, as the theory goes, in a period where individual action is the only relevant tool left.

It is a legitimate viewpoint, but I think that it isn't applicable to everybody. A precious few will be able to self-motivate - move ahead - achieve their dreams - but too many will be left behind.

Thank you for your question NNQUEEN. I think I shared some of the things the Nation does. In my community they give workshops on health, prisons, gang peace and all types empowering subjects. They have a well attended mens group that attracts men from all walks of life, twice a year. The women do the same but do not get the response that the men get.

As far as improvements are concerned. Personally, I think they are doing the best the can with what they got. They get no federal state local dollars. Almost everything they do is on a volunteer basis. Some of us have to start taking up the slack. Most of our people are not willing or feel the necessity to put on long dresses and cover up their bodies. It takes great sacrafice and commitment to do that. But that does not let us off the hook. How many Black organizations have a newspaper that speaks for us by us and on the issues that we need to know about. How many websites for that matter.

As a matter of fact I am delighted that I located this site, it is wonderful!

There is a lot we can do collectively. OUr churches, our mosques our ethnicity, our philosophies, should not stop us from forming an Afrakan Union.

What if the Nation and the Churches and the PanAfrakanists got together for a Stop the Violence and AIDS campaign? What if athletes and entertainers pooled their monies to form Black business, schools and wealth. What if they put thier beliefs aside and kept their eyes on the prize, in terms employing our people by forming businesses in Afraka, the carribean and in amerikkka.

I know Minister Farrakhan wants to do that, what about the rest of these so-called leaders and institutions. That is our role today. I hope I live to see it. I am going to do what I can to make sure it happens what about the rest of us?!!!!!

I believe this is our time now and we have to sieze the moment. Hotep. May God and the ancestors be with us.

It is good to see so many compelling arguments for and against the idea of a national black leader. I had to think about the question myself for a minute. Well, I have to say I agree with the idea that we do need someone to remind us that what the martyrs gave their lives for in the sixties was only the begining, that we still have much further to go. Some one said that civil rights are being eroded all over this country and this is so true. We need a leader that has the communication skills to make us aware that the day has not yet come when we are judged by the content of our character as opposed to the color of our skin. We need a leader who can use his or her charisma to unite the various factions that have arisen within our community. And I will agree with the poster that said that we need many leaders and also we as individuals need to behave as if we were that leader so that we can set an example of true character for future generations of black children to follow.

As for a black woman being a leader ... we have enough of these already calling themselves politicans and civil rights leaders and political appointees. The result has been and will always be ONE GREAT BIG DISASTER for our race. NO WOMAN, no matter what color is capable of matching might on a daily basis with the white germanic, turkish, slavonic, italian, iberian males who presently rule this world ... and treat all women like whores. As written in the Holy Scriptures, it is considered a PUNISHMENT for women to rule over MEN. It is MAN whom our Lord YHWH created in HIS image as "Lord of the Earth" ... not the woman.

If women cannot accept their duty here on earth as helpmate and wife to man, who is "Lord of the Earth" ... how will they expect to live in the Righteous kingdom ruled by our Lord YHWH as the final destiny for all people born into this world?

Good thing I'm not religious.

Sister, I wish to God and the ancestors that Black women could find men who would love, cherish, support, maintian them and their children. Unfortunatley, because of our experience here on earth with satan we are the most fractured people on earth with not enough in tact and functional marriges.

What are we to do? I don't have all of the answer to that question. But I do know that we can't sit back and wait for our poor men to take the ball and run with it as we mothers who are raising our children try to survive here in Amerikkka.

Fortunately we have great role models like Queen Tiye, Ida B Wells, Ahmose Nefertari, Harriet Tubman, Sarrounia, Queen Amina, Queen Mother Moore, Hapshepsut and the like who displayed great queenship and wtihout degrading their men, helped in the upliftment of their people.

I don't think we need to be in the limelight to be leaders and helpmates, because you are right, women like Babara Lee, Cynthia McKinney, Winnie Mandela have been lynched before our very eyes by these mutated people that we have to live among.

We simply cannot sit back and watch our demise happen. We must speak out and do something.

<<<Good thing I'm not religious.>>>

Im with you Deepa LOL....As a black male, I could apprieciate the leader ship of a strong black woman. Women like Queen Hatshepsut, Queen Kahina and Queen Nzingha displayed great leadership in ruling their people. The Black Nation can use the likes of them today.

Ok but I Ain't Religious

I am spiritual though.

Don't worry, sexism still exists, so there will be plenty of red and blue texting for you to do against those of us who subscribe to equality and respect.

i suppose u could assume that sista rosetta but I dont think thats what deepa was implying...she is simply separating one from the other...and acknowledging that a black woman can be a "helpmate, wife and mother to her race" and still recieve her own sense of security equality and respect...

one could also conclude from your comment that being a "helpmate, wife and mother to her race" is not a role of equality and respect but i doubt if that was what u meant as well my sista.

Rosetta---

I am sencing some real hostility coming from you :lol: Why are you so mad at everyone who does not believe as you do? Do you believe that you have the market cornered on knowledge and/or truth? Your religion is hardly the only one that believes that women were created to be helpmates....however isn't it POSSIBLE that "helpmates" could be a little broader term than what YOU AND YOUR RELIGION believe to be???

As I have stated before....Religion(s) is simply a way for them to divide and conquer us. WE WILL NEVER ALL AGREE ON A SINGLE SPIRITUALLITY!!! So wouldn't it stand to reason that we should work towards something that we WILL all agree on? We need UNITY before any REAL progress can be made. And it seems (just my perception) that your responses (and some other hostile people on here) are pushing us in the opposite direction. What do you think?

lol @ A007 i think sista rosetta is just passionate lol :)

"Once again, you give the same old typical racist white political think tank response ... referring to the person telling the TRUTH as allegedly 'hostile' or 'mad' . LOL! LOL!"

Number 1...just because YOU believe something does not make it truth. You have offered NO evidence or even a reason for you thinking the way that you do. Number 2....there is nothing typical, racist, white, or political about ANY of my responses. I am free to think as I like, not as some religion and/or people tell me to.

" ... Why are you so 'mad' at those who WON'T fall for your bull****hz ? What's the matter? ... 'mad' that someone is discussing white america's military plan for germanic world conquest using women lib as a warfare strategy?"

I am not angry at you or anyone else sister. I love you and anyone else that cares to express their respective opinions on how to help black people as a whole. If my responses come across as hostile I sincerely apologize. In my defense I will only say that UNITY is what I see as our best hope of changing our fate, so any time someone threatens unity with delibrate attacks on peoples belief and/or opinions, I have to say something. I simply believe we have to have peace before we have unity.

"The Holy Scriptures are very clear on what the terms 'helpmate' and 'wife/concubine' refers to."

If this is so, please list the scriptures that make it very clear.


"Your religion is nothing but the brainwashing and mind-programming warfare strategy of white america ... calling it 'integration' or 'multiculturalism' or 'racial diversity' wherein Black america is being destroyed through massive IMMIGRATION"

I don't have a "religion" perse and I definately do not wish to brainwash or mind-program anyone. It is my sincere wish that we ALL think for ourselves, which seems to be a stretch for many of us.

"... leaving millions of us without jobs, without homes without, legal or medical services, unjustly imprisoned, etc.... running from state to state like economic refugees in our own ancestral homelands."

This has more to do with economics than any racist indoctrination as you believe it to be. I have addressed this in previous posts, so I will not go into it right here.

With all due respect Rosetta regaining of our ancestral homelands and the end of racism can ONLY be accomplished by us propering economically first.... because money and guns are the only important things to the "ruling" whites.

wow... i see how this thread went down avenues not anticipated and 1 member was banned...i wish i would have seen this thread while it was developing...thank you queenie for pointing me in this direction...here are my 2 cents...

from what some were saying earlier in this discussion, ecomomic and political leadership cannot go with religeous leadership...the reason is that religon will exclude some blacks in this instance and we need everybody on the bus for economic and political equity...leaders are needed in the black community like yesterday...we are aimlessly existing in this country with no goals as a race and no direction...this is the information age and the media is the percieved truth nowdays...we need a couple of champions in the media to fight for our case, our cause...maybe if this happened, some of the knuckleheadz would get with the program and live to get better in life, just not live....a007 said that most people are followers, this is truth, this is human nature...will anyone in our generation step to the plate and at the same time keep their dirty laundy out of the public eye?...only time will tell this tale of the black race in america...i hope i see it before i cease to exist in this plane...
one love
khasm

How does the “head” bring the body into Unity?

http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26160

i miss Malcolm
i miss Martin
i miss Huey, real bad

we crying for leadership
we dying for leadership

not one person, but many
who can think clear, articulate

i just want to see him, hear her

i swear i never seen so many whack black in all my life
brothers and sisters the clock is ticking :shades:

The body only has one head, not two or more. That's the nature of life, we must accept.

Yes, there are many, many, important NERVE GROUPS in the BODY that are considered LITTLE BRAINS but AT THE TOP, there's only ONE BIG HEAD, calling the shots, controlling the body, in charge.

If we are divided on the base of Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology, than that DIVISION and DIS-UNITY with be seen in how we regard the HEAD.

if we don't AGREE WITH and like, the Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology of the HEAD/LEADER, we won't JOIN and help the BODY/group.

So we can not SEPARATE the Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology of the HEAD/LEADER from ECONOMICS or politics.

If we don't like or agree, COLLECTIVELY (as the BODY) with a LEADER'S (head), Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology, then we WON'T ACCEPT their leadership.

We MUST DO THE IMPOSSIBLE and unite ourselves FROM TOP (Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology) to BOTTOM (economics, politics, etc.).

Yes, we are in Theology, Philosophy, Culture, Ideology CONFLICT and DIVISION and DIVIDED. Lets face the truth and fact of the matter.

But the conflict, division WILL LEAD to ONE TRUTH WE CAN UNITE ON and ALL AGREE ON.

The MORE we ENGAGE in the conflict of IDEAS and concept and OVER COME the conflict and division and AGREE collectively on one truth, the quicker we can UNITE collectively.

Coming to a Universal Truth we can collectively agree and unite on is a PROCESS, that takes TIME (yes, I know we DON'T have time). But there is no getting around the PROCESS. We have been trying to do just that. But we can't get around it. So we continue to come back full circle to the beginning of the process, over and over, each generation.

The Chines People are ONE BILLION people with ONE HEAD/leader, we are not even 50 million, we MUST DO the IMPOSSIBLE, unite on one truth, one head. Like it or not, there's not getting around it.

Yea, we can have many, many, many, little local, community leaders, but only ONE NATIONAL head at the top.

Jesus, gave us a PRINCIPLE OF LEADERSHIP, "life me up and I will draw all unto me.

The LIFTING UP of the HEAD/leader at the TOP is done by subordinate leaders, under-leaders, under-boses, who LIFT up one head, one leader.

Once we DO THE IMPOSSIBLE and find, agree, UNITE on ONE UNIVERSAL TRUTH, we WILL UNITE THE WORLD

We will become WORLD LEADERS

We will LEAD the NATIONS of the World

We WILL have MORE INFLUENCE than ISRAEL IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Right now Israel IS INFLUENCING THE WORLD THROUGH THE CONFLICT with the Palestinians but we will INFLUENCE the WORLD by our EXAMPLE of ONE TRUTH, one unity, one powerful people of technology, science, culture, righteousness, ethics, values, spirituality.

Kannte

With all due respect, I disagree. There is no such thing as a universal truth. If it were so don't you think we would have at least scratched the surface of it in our thousands of years of existance?

I also disagree because after Malcolm's "enlightenment" and defection from the Nation, his cause (the uplifting of our race) was embraced by Muslims, Jews, Christians and others. I do agree that we need UNITY and a singleness of purpose. However, to focus on our respective religions, politics, ideologies is a mistake. I would venture to say that it the reason we are so divided now. The divide and conquer war tactic has worked on us since slavery and continues to prevail. The way we think, believe, practice our lives in terms of the bible, qu'ran, or other texts are the WORDS of God and/or do we have the right to tell other grown people what they can and can't do to themselves will always separate us. However, I believe we can all agree that 1 dollar plus 1 dollar equals 2 dollars and 2 dollars can buy us whatever costs two dollars.

IMHO what we need to do is focus on the things that we DO agree on. Isn't that what we do in romantic love? Our partners do not agree with everything that we say and/or believe, but the things we do agree on(have in common) seem to be enough facilitate us forming a relationship. We agree to disagree on the other things for the sake of the relationship. This is a form of LOVE. This LOVE is what we should demonstrate to our people in order to form a relationship that empowers us to make changes in our lives personally, community wide, nationally, and globally.

What do you think?

IMO, we don't need a leader. Leaders can be corrupted. I think we need an organization that is genuinely dedicated to us to move on the issues that are important. I mean really move on the issues....not looking at how it will upset the white folks to determine whether the issue in fact becomes an issue. This organization needs to be fully funded by us without any input or donations from any other groups...period. NAACP....well, we know what's up with that. Plus, we as people need to get our heads on straight. We are too caught up in things and images that lead us away from what really is important to us. We as black people no longer care about eachother. We only care about drawing a check and "making paper". I mean...a lot of black people would rather be rappers than leaders sending positive messages to uplift our people. Not all black people...but alot of black people I know have that veiw-point, so I assume we all probably know alot as well. I think we are so comfortable at the bottom that we start thinking individually and forget about issues that affect us all. Other races love the fact that we can't get it together. They know we don't stand by eachother nowadays. They know we forget about issues that will bring change to our situation as long as we can make a quick dollar. The first thing we need to do collectively is get out of this negative, ignorant thinking that many of our people are infatuated with. Start thinking smarter and long-term. Will this ever happen? I have no idea. We are like those donkeys on cartoons and white media keeps waving those carrots in our face to make us walk the way he wants us to walk.

We can't try uniting on religion. Black people are too passionate about this subject. We will not be able to function as one when religion is the cornerstone that guides many black people's lives. If we have 100 different religions then we will always be moving 100 different ways. We need to just realize as black people that no matter what religion we are in....we don't want to be at the bottom looking up anymore. We need to realize that everyone and everything is passing us by. We're born in this world at the bottom and we leave at the bottom. Whether people want to admit it...we are hurting ourselves more than alot of the issues that are piled up against us....because we're not willing to fight against it. We're not willing to fight stereotypes or ignorance and people see this....that why they keep piling it on.

Very good point, A007. Good to see you again too! :)

Brother Kannte, to address what you wrote, I'm not sure that the analogy you made between the body and Blacks as a people is as equivalent as the way you describe. In theory it sounds good, but in practice, I'm not sure it's a practical observation and certainly not our only solution.

In comparison, show me where that analogy applies to people of other races that seem to be making progress in the world? Do they all agree or are all compatible on every level? I doubt it.

I do think, and agree with Brother A007, that what's important is for people to find that common ground or common purpose and proceed from there. That is the place where movements are launched, certainly not waiting for every aspect of your thinking and behaving to be equal. If that was the case, then we'd all be stagnant and surely become extinct as a species.

Universal truth...is a subjective concept in my opinion. Basic truths...life, liberty and freedom to be who you want to be. Within those parameters people can and often do, find a common ground upon which to build.

A so-called leader is anyone who has people that follow them. Some followers will understand and agree with the basic tenets of the leader and others will simply follow because they don't know any better.

What is the value of a leader and is leadership inherent in our socialization as members of the human race? When you look at the way society is constructed, leadership plays a prominent role throughout our history. It seems that we always need a pilot or driver of a group of people for a specific purpose. Some figurehead or working brain that calls the shots and makes the decisions. But WHO really makes the decisions? Is the leader alone OR is the leader simply the mouth piece through which messages and ideas are conveyed? Where does the REAL power lie, within the leaders themselves or among the followers? When followers get tired of leaders or feel they have served their purpose and their usefulness is no longer desired, they rid themselves of that particular leader, thereby relieving them of any power and control they once had over that particular group.

A question becomes, when and in what circumstances does a group need a leader and when don't they need one?

Queenie :spinstar:

There is NO RELIGION that is higher than TRUTH.

We must DO THE IMPOSSIBLE. Find the one universal truth, and unite on it.

In fact that is really what we are doing. The struggle and internal battle for the great truth is ALREADY engaged in us, here now, as a nation and people, this is WHAT we are doing right NOW. Its already on, we just need to ACKNOWLEDGE it, and roll with it until the end.

Yes, we are passionate about religion, as we should be, but we ARE DIVIDED on THEOLOGY, we will continue to be divided on the base of THEOLOGY, until we DO THE INTERNAL BATTLE for the one universal truth of it all and unite on it. And if we have to make a NEW RELIGION - SO BE IT.

I say lets battle it out, until we get to the bottom of it all, and battle and battle, and discuss it, and discuss it, until we solve it. It is a internal battle for truth on the HIGHEST LEVEL of all knowledge.

As long as we are divided on the base of THEOLOGY our MONEY WILL BE DIVIDED.

Our HALF A TRILLION (500 billion) dollars FOLLOWS our THEOLOGY, if we are collectively divided on the base of Theology and Philosophy, we will not be united on WHERE and HOW we use our MONEY to BUILD for our self.

No, this our struggle, this is our internal battle. We are the most educated black/African people on the planet, then we surely can use our intelligence to come to ONE TRUTH, that is higher than all and any religion to unite on.

After 440 years of slavery we are compelled, we have been shaped and fashioned to find, and resolve the division of humanity in our nation that we may SURVIVE as a people. God is one, truth is one, we live on one planet, we have one common DNA, we must do the IMPOSSIBLE, and become one people.

If necessary, we will make a NEW THEOLOGY, based on Truth, and battle, until we fine it, cause we ain't going no where until we do.

I do believe that it is time for a new leader (or 4) rise up to unite the masses. However, I also believe that each one of us can be a leader in our own right. We need to ask ourselvs why we are so eager (or not) to hand over the reigns of control to someone. Why do we feel the need to be led (or not)?

I really don't think we need to be led. I don't think handing over the reigns will do anything right now. I don't know if you guys would agree, but do you think black people need a real serious situation to happen before we get entirely fed up with our standing in America. Like in the 60s and 70s they had alot more open racism, that was seen everyday and wasn't hidden like it is now. So there was no way to battle it but to fight. So we united more than we do now. I see alot of black people who are content and really appear to believe that this is a free country. Simply because we can now use the same restrooms, sit where we want to on the bus and land a job here and there. I think our being so content is our enemy too.

ACTIVITY
African American Leaders Today

Just as Washington, Du Bois, and Garvey differed in their visions for black people, African American leaders today do not all hold one viewpoint. Form the class into sets of two students. Each set will research one of the following current African American leaders:

Julian Bond

Ward Connerly

Marian Wright Edelman

Myrlie Evers-Williams

Louis Farrakhan

Jesse Jackson Sr.

Coretta Scott King

John Lewis

Kweisi Mfume

Carol Moseley-Braun

Colin Powell

Condoleezza Rice

Al Sharpton

Clarence Thomas

J. C. Watts Jr.

Andrew Young


I found this exercise and thought it was interesting and a good tool for us to learn about the above list of people that are viewed by some as being our leaders. Whether you agree or disagree, it might be good to learn more about these people by researching their backgrounds on specific topics that we often raise in our discussion threads. Of course you can feel free to add to the list and provide background information about each addition as well.

Research the life and accomplishments of any of the African-American leaders. Research the leader's ideas and views on current issues such as affirmative action, reparations for slavery, hate crimes, housing, tax policy, foreign affairs, or other matters important to him or her.


Queenie :spinstar:


Source: http://www.crf-usa.org/brown50th/three_visions.htm

after watching Sharpton dance on TV:

i think the current "leadership" is non functional.
that's sad but on the other hand it leaves the field wide open for someone new to came along.

we need new leadership that is both righteous and charismatic.
we need people who are pro black and will not be corrupted.
we need people who know their history and are intelligent.

but most of all we need someone who loves us. :luvv:

i was saddened to see Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson grinning from ear to ear and posing for the camera with Bush at the urban league meeting.
how can you say you oppose a man when you giggle like a teen age girl at a rock concert when he comes around?
like the end of "animal farm", i had trouble telling them apart from Bush.
these guys are pimping so hard it's impossible for them to be real critics of the system that feeds them.
we need new, raw, righteous leadership!

i was saddened to see Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson grinning from ear to ear and posing for the camera with Bush at the urban league meeting.
how can you say you oppose a man when you giggle like a teen age girl at a rock concert when he comes around?
like the end of "animal farm", i had trouble telling them apart from Bush.
these guys are pimping so hard it's impossible for them to be real critics of the system that feeds them.
we need new, raw, righteous leadership!

sharpton, jackson seem 2 b in it for the money. lately p. diddy seems to have more balls then any of them. i believe instead of a leader, we need an orginization. thats simply for financial growth, nopt religion or $$$

i was saddened to see Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson grinning from ear to ear and posing for the camera with Bush at the urban league meeting.
how can you say you oppose a man when you giggle like a teen age girl at a rock concert when he comes around?
like the end of "animal farm", i had trouble telling them apart from Bush.
these guys are pimping so hard it's impossible for them to be real critics of the system that feeds them.
we need new, raw, righteous leadership!

I wholeheartedly agree!!

Queenie

mm making that sound in tha mm like "'you bet...""





and he gonna come..






jee what a world today.....



Yall wanna know why this happening why that happening...


where is the love where is tha love...



just open chapter "revelations"'



or just open tha book.....




And YES People RIGHt Musicians at the vma,s """VOTE VOTE ""




cause man....



aww naw man ...





they gotta move their ***** out those easter country,s.......




thinking that devil has a face ...Thinking terrorism is the evil....


They aint fighting tha real evil...



better say they dont know how to fight it..




it is .......but it goes deeper but of course yall know that...

it goes deeper than that...



Yall know that....








and somepeople still think that ....


the word is some kind of play.....



the things that are written...







Lord have mercy....




bless us all with love lord ......


alll ....not one country ALL....


some saybut we got to fullfill tha book












Lovelibertylady:heart:

Remember when I said "If you something done right, DO IT YOURSELF?!"

People like me do not count on people to lead. I understand that if I believe in leadership in the Black Communities and across the globe to portray Brother King and Brother Malcolm and such I will need to step up myself. Because we still do not have freedom, and we still are treated unfairly. Of all the people on that activity list for Brown v. Board, Which one of them will be the first one to die for change? It seems to me that when our leaders died, nobody wanted to replace. Colin Powell is probably the only African-American allowed in the White House and he is concerned about war, not the vurrent state of the Black Communities, not the fact that young black men are being thrown in prison for $35,000 A YEAR! What are our leaders doing about that? I will be darned if I went to prison for $35,000 a year so that the government can build a new prison for more young black men. We can't count on leaders, we need to do it ourselves, or meet up with the leaders, and work together to get things done.

Cedric Denson

LEADERS DON'T GET THE HEADLINES IN THE NEWS PAPER FOLKS. THE ONLY LEADERS WE NEED IS A BLACK MOTHER AND A BLACK FATHER TOGETHER RAISING THEIR CHILDREN WITH PRIDE AND MORALS. MESSY JACKSON AND AL SHARPTON ARE GETTING OVER ON THE RACE ISSUE. YES, RACE IS A CAREER FOR THOSE GUYS.


THAT'S MY "BIG" OPINION.

I think before we can say we need a Leader we must decide what direction we want to go in or where we want to be led. One of the biggest problems facing the descendents and residents of Africa is we are going in plenty of directions as individuals or even in small groups but we are making very little strides as a people comparatively. As long as we segregate ourselves we will alway think like a tribe instead of a nation. A leader is merely a servant of the people representing the voice and power of the people. The people bestow power upon the leader. I think many of us are confusing a leader with a superhero or a messiah. That's the lazy man's approach to solving his own problems. A leader is a representation of an idea. Leaders can come and go the idea never dies. Once the idea is dead so are the people figuratively. When the people are dead the leader is dead. A leader will emerge from the people when the people have the same idea, same plan and same voice.


Peace

Radical Faith

and what i mean with a leader is not in a form of a man or woman...





i,m kinda mean it like more in energie....



and spirrit....


sumthing like love.....




real love....

and what i mean with a leader is not in a form of a man or woman...





i,m kinda mean it like more in energie....



and spirrit....


sumthing like love.....




real love....

I like that idea. Why put faith in man? We need to put faith in ourselves and realize that we need change and then act on it. :peace: LibertyLady

Throughout history, leadership has proven to be essential to man's survival. A leader--someone guiding others who are following them. To some degree, we are all leaders, but our influence may be limited only to those whose lives we will directly come into contact with.

It goes without saying that as individuals, we can all do our own thing...separately and independently. But that doesn't mean that each of us will be moving in the same direction, functioning with the same set of values and beliefs, or that we will be able to make a difference or impact on a large or grand scale. Collectively, there is, as the saying goes, "strength in numbers."

A mass movement of people with the same purpose and goals, is usually led by a leader because there's a need for an organized agenda with specific goals and objectives and history has proven that one voice carrying the message on behalf of many is more effective and easier to listen to. It also makes it difficult to break the group apart when there's someone leading them who has garnered the respect and approval of the masses.

Simply put, these individuals want to make a difference on a large scale in ways that benefit them and their heirs. Most movements today (if not all) are political in nature. There's a saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." When a group stands silent and without a leader, who is paying attention or listening when there are so many voices saying different things?

The rise and fall of great nations throughout the history of man, be it political or religious crusades, were pushed forward and advanced by a leader on behalf of either a large number of people or people with political and economic influence or both. We should not underestimate the value and potential power of leadership no matter what level or circumstance.

I believe that sometimes we're too philosophical and less realistic when it comes to our condition as a people. Love and strong spirit are important for people to have in my opinion, but with that we need to do something more than simply confine our energy to ourselves, individually. We must find our "community" of spirits; people with like minds and become a mass movement toward a common set of goals. Without a leader, what significant impact would we be able to make?

Queenie :spinstar:

I think blacks need leaders, REAL leaders, not these symbol jokes with no power, and lack of responsibility like faraCON and messy jesse, who tackle black issues and actually hold political power and clout. but are also upstanding and can give inspiration to blacks, someone that looks like them they can emulate, the whites have this in many men and women.... we have al sharpie

Oba, my initial reaction to your post was to go somewhere I did not want to go, but out of respect for you and Destee I am going be as respectful as I possibly can be.

To me, this site is for thought provoking information things brings us to a higher level of knowledge and understanding. Make generalized statements without facts is pointless and as far as I am concerned should be posted on sites where people who just want to spout out generalizations.

YOur calling Minister Farrkkhan names and then praising white leaders as quite interesting and personally I want to know where exactly you are coming from.

So let me leave at this, please do me the favor by qualifying you statements about so-called Black leaders, so that I may be enlighted, if that is possible.

Thank you and peace.

I think the time of the messianic leader is past - and I'm glad about it!(smile!)

I think THAT kind of leader put African people in a very tenuous spot, because losing that leader seemed only to cause chaos in our ranks... It demoralized us, and struck fear into the community... Additionally, those messianic leaders tend toward a whole lot of the egotism which we seem to despise, so developing leadership among the masses was seen as a diminution of their "power." Only the Honorable Elijah Muhammad seemed to have developed leadership from among his followers...

Another very terrible aspect of messianic type leadership is in our churches, where these preachers have been used like a tool by White Supremacists...and unfortunately, they loved it, screwing us without grease... I say, we must lead by example, and we must develop leadership... That is why I am constantly talking about the building of self-perpetuating institutions, peops... Institutions - as long as folk are abiding those institutional goals - are in place to perpetuate our collective aims, goals, our desires, and dreams... Unchecked messianic leadership is in place to perpetuate the goals, aims, desires, and dreams of the leader and his progeny... Aint no room in that for millions of starving mouths, and outstretched and impoverished hands...

Pdiane, I agree with you that brother Oba is "off" when he talks about the talented leaders in the White Community... Brother, that is a misapprehension of what White leadership is set up to do... Hey, study White Leadership's role during the Jim Crow era, and you'll see how they kept the poor White Trash constantly at war with Africans, while keeping both groups PO'! They gave these fools the right to humiliate and harrass Africans, and that seemed sufficient enough for these hillbillies... It was not about their excellent leadership, it was about their followers being straight dumb... Check the record...

I think African people are smarter than that, and that is why we raise these questions... For one, leadership comes from a great many alternative places in our communities... Denying us the right to vote for so long actually provided us with an advantage... We need to use all of our options, which actually serves to strengthen our communities in places where other communities are weak... Our long years of experience at organizing ourselves outside of the political construct of the white man, has given us strength, not weakness... It seems we are weak when it comes to studying ourselves, and our capabilities...

African people need institutional power, we need Lobbying Groups that go into congress, and procure things for our communities much in the way that AIPAC does for American Jews... They have a third of our population, but 10 times our political power... How is that??? Study what AIPAC does, and you'll understand... They strategically throw some dollars here and there at various politicians, and voila, those politicians do their bidding... Israel gets their 10-billion a year of African people's tax dollars, because African people are operating in a very primitive sphere of of the political arena:voting... Voting gets a person in office, but it don't control his or her actions... Them dollars do... Hard cold facts Africans, is that just as this discussion board requires our dollars to keep operating, so too does it take dollars to keep a congressman's career in Washington afloat... They will go where the money leads them, and they will do the bidding of those who pay the most... That is how politics in America works... Again, we gotta build businesses and strong institutions to fulfill our needs socially, economically, and politically... That requires the WE ALL pitch in... When we as a people have become that TIGHT on our game, any would-be leader will know to bow his or her head humbly, and ASK us what it is WE WANT, rather than telling us what we should want... Just my opinion...

Peace!
Isaiah

During the Jim Crow era not all African Americans were poor, Jim Crow had absolutely nothing to do with the white trash attacking blacks, affluent or not during and after slavery. in new York city the whites attacked blacks because they did not want skilled slaves who had worked in those fields for centuries taking their jobs and making millions like many blacks had done by the 1870s. Middle class and poor white trash attacked blacks all over the country; their communities burned their financial centers burned. Don’t blame that on Jim Crow, that’s just silliness. I will get on those other people tomorrow I’m not to fond of those shake down artists who patronize their own people to get over.

During the Jim Crow era not all African Americans were poor, Jim Crow had absolutely nothing to do with the white trash attacking blacks, affluent or not during and after slavery. in new York city the whites attacked blacks because they did not want skilled slaves who had worked in those fields for centuries taking their jobs and making millions like many blacks had done by the 1870s. Middle class and poor white trash attacked blacks all over the country; their communities burned their financial centers burned. Don’t blame that on Jim Crow, that’s just silliness. I will get on those other people tomorrow I’m not to fond of those shake down artists who patronize their own people to get over.

My beautiful brother, Oba, I believe we have somewhere posted on this website a breakdown of lynchings by state, and all of those states which adhered to the caste system which we now call Jim Crow head the list(smile!) That would be enough to lay waste your claim that it is "silliness" to "blame Jim Crow..." But, by the way, I didn't "Blame" no Jim Crow for nothing, brother... I took issue with your ridiculous assumption that white people have all of this wonderful leadership, a leadership which, during Jim Crow, literally chased 6-million of it's best and brightest workers, artisans, and scholars to the north... I ask you, brother, what is so brilliant about that???(smile!)

That was a leadership that presided over the daily lynchings of African American soldiers returning home from fighting THEIR enemies in WWI and WWII, precipitating, not only the flight of some great individuals OUT of the south, but stimulating insurgent forces within the Black community to finally tear down the grotesque monstrosity they'd erected called Jim Crow Segregation... Oh, how I love their brilliant leadership, my beautiful, my beloved brother, Oba!!! Makes me wanna preach, makes me wanna-ah-holla, and throw up bof muh hands!!!(smile!)

Sorry for the digression, my brother... But This thread asked the question of Do We need a Leader, and my answer was we need many leaders, and the reason we need many leaders is to head of brothers like yourself who get straight indignant, and start calling folk silly when they are not agreed with(smile!) So, in effect, you rendered, perhaps, the best of example of why we would tend to need a checks and balances system of true democracy among our leaders, and within African America, rather than the autocratic and dictatorial style of leadership, heretofore, present in our leadership class... I remind you and them, it don't take a brilliant man to call folk silly for expressing a perspective different from your own, good brother...(smile!)

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

White leaders did things for THEIR people, WHITE people. I know of how the whites reneged on their deal in 1877 and started placing Jim Crow laws on blacks. I’m **** sure not endorsing Jim crow, but to say that white leaders enacted it based on some imaginary class war to cause conflict between blacks and their poor white brothers, is kind of silly to me. But white trash was still killing blacks before slavery ended. I don't have the slightest idea why blacks can't understand that whites simply didn't like them. That is why they move away when blacks start moving into their areas. It’s happening here in Washington State.

Besides it's not about them, I'm talking about how politicians inspire and lead white Americans, they give them someone to emulate. There are white women who look up to Hillary Clinton and patty Murray etc. Jews who look up to Liberman, Sharon etc., Lobbying firms that fight for the needs of white Cubans, etc. whites especially Italians that admire Guiliani, people paid 250 bucks just for tickets to see him speak, the list goes on these people benefit and inspire their OWN as well as meet the mandatory obligations of their offices, (not saying they are devoid of corruption, benefit blacks or any others, but they DO hold REAL political power). And can make REAL moves within their communities, and I’m sorry to say, but Farrakhan, Sharpton, and ole messy Jesse, have lost any credibility they could have had LONG ago.

Blacks need real leaders, with real political power, that actually work for their benefit. To give them real social, political, and economical success on a large scale like all of the other groups within these borders even African born citizens and 2 gens have and are establishing their own leaders. And those symbolic "leaders" that supposedly represent African Americans now with little to no responsibility are not cutting the mustard, they need to stick to their little cults and stop trying to run with the big dogs of the political arena, which I think they know better than to do, but if they can cash in on false hope like some preachers do they will obviously pass around that offering plate. There are real people out there that can represent black Americans, and benefit them all regardless of class, but these clowns with their gimmicks and cults need to get lost, I'm sorry but I'm just sick of these jokers they don't have any valid purpose power or ability to change anything.

[QUOTE=Oba Iparankanru]White leaders did things for THEIR people, WHITE people. I know of how the whites reneged on their deal in 1877 and started placing Jim Crow laws on blacks. I’m **** sure not endorsing Jim crow, but to say that white leaders enacted it based on some imaginary class war to cause conflict between blacks and their poor white brothers, is kind of silly to me. But white trash was still killing blacks before slavery ended. I don't have the slightest idea why blacks can't understand that whites simply didn't like them. That is why they move away when blacks start moving into their areas. It’s happening here in Washington State.

Brother Oba, please get your facts straight... Then things would not seem so silly to you... Understand that during slavery, Africans were regarded as a commodity, as property, and no slave master was going to allow hillbilly White Trash to drag his "property" off his property to be murdered for some perceived slight, such as was routinely during during Jim Crow Segregation... In point of fact, some historians have concluded that as crazy as it sounds, Jim Crow Segregation was far worse on the African body, mind, and soul than actual slavery... Note, there are no records kept of lynchings prior to 1882, and there's a reason for that... There were far more lynchings of whites prior to the end of slavery, than Blacks... Why? Because Our Ancestors were a most valuable economic commodity...

Now, as to why rich whites would want to have class warfare among poor Whites and Blacks, there is nothing silly about that, it is a time-honored tactic of control of the masses by the rich... As long as we fight among one another, the rich will always be there to play the "good guy" in our disputes... In that way, he or she maintains control over us both... If you study the labor movement, Africans were used as scabs to undermine the unions, and those very same unions were the ones discrimminating against us, and making it all so possible for the super-rich to exploit us both... When those unions finally came around to allowing Africans into the union, they finally solved their problem - at least temporarily... Through inclusion of African Americans, and working together, they undermined the rich owners of the assembly lines...

Another example of how these games are played is in real estate... The big boys tell white folks their property values will go down if an African moves into the community... Meanwhile, they will be the first to move an African into the community, causing the whites to sell their property rock bottom, and flee... Who benefits from this??? The big real estate tycoons who control the real money in this society... Meanwhile, you and I are fighting one another over Bush or Kerry, and neither of these cats are gonna be running the country(smile!) Big Business runs this country, and Bush and the rest aint nothing but figureheads... What more do we expect of a Jesse Jackson that for him to be a figurehead... He aint got no money... He doesn't control any jobs, and nor does Sharpton... They are limited by the fact that they don't own anything but their reps, and that's just good enough to get THEM ovah...

Once again, power is a complex thing... And it is different than leadership... We Africansn need POWER, not more leaders... POWER in this world is about institutions and systems, and those are created by commerce in the world we live in... Any strong leader has institutional power backing him, like Martin had the Church, and Malcolm had the Nation.. What have Sharpton and Jackson backing them??? Who is at fault for that AFricans??? Should Jesse and Al and Farrakhan be supermen, and challenge the system, while we sit back whining and criticizing??? Perhaps, if we were far more supportive of the leadership we have, they'd behave differently... We just have not learned these lessons, yet, and that's why we continue to complain...

Back these leaders up with money, back them up with being your own leader, and you and I will see a change in the leadership of tomorrow... They'll know they can't half-step around African people, because we're watching them, and we'll just remove 'em when they aren't doing what we want them to do...

Peace!
isaiah

My Facts are irrefutable, actually the whites slaughtered rich blacks as well poor as was documented in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida, South Carolina and Illinois. That’s non-issue, it was RACE related, they used Irish as scabs as well, also Russians and Italians in Louisiana the Italians were murdered for being scabs but that’s the only place, why if it was about scabs taking jobs were Russians and Irish not slaughtered just as Negroes were? Not to mention the blacks killed during slavery whenever someone attempted to revolt and the militias would form and mob against free people and slaves? Lynchings were brutal, but miniscule compared to the other ways blacks were outright slaughtered. And to deny this is ludicrous.

They killed many free blacks in the north that were nearly 1 million by 1810 because of the manumission laws in states like New York and Vermont in the late 1770’s. From 1812 to 1865 80,000 were killed via militias, escapee executions and the civil war itself. I don’t know how many ways to put it to you, but whites just didn’t like blacks unless they were benefiting from them. Slaves were designated livestock. But like livestock 10 dead cows across 100 counties are easily replaceable via the West Indies and the continued illegal trafficking.

The Nation of Islam is and was nothing, lets face it Malcolm was basically irrelevant other than being a symbol of black militant pride in the 60s and besides that same nation is what led to his demise. Farrakhan is a joke, he has money and NO POWER, during the Million Man march he showed he could draw in large numbers of people, Black people, unlike the NBC local liberal politicians and other actual figureheads and power holders. They came to listen to him to see what he could do but in typical NOI fashion he was just a performer. Even bush and his boys can pretend to solve problems in the nation, he doesn’t, but he actually knows the economy was tanking and that education currently sucks etc., Farrakhan hasn’t addressed anything nor have the other “leaders”, just complained for silliness like reparations. Also what did he actually do with this newfound opportunity to lead? He went on a tour of Europe; he formed 2 other marches, which boils down to absolutely nothing. He uses his newspaper to write about things he never actually does anything about in the city he lives in and has deep pockets in as well.

Until Black Americans get some real political and economical power within your own nation, you will continue to be a joke, lacking the same medical, educational, social, and economical benefits that Africans, Asians, Caucasians, and Hispanics (black, Indian or white) that come here hold. Only the black middle and upper classes that were able to hold on to their riches and companies during the white trash rebellions have on the same scale the opportunities to do the things my people and the rest can. Indeed big business runs the world this is known well in countries like Nigeria and India. But like any other organization or group, when the leader isn’t doing a good job, he is criticized and or replaced. The average African American doesn't, and will not even stand up and question these leech groups like the NOI and messy Jesse to take responsibility for the roles they’ve chosen. Tell me this, who in the passed 30 years has actually addressed the issues facing your community? Any, like heart disease, loan discrimination, housing discrimination (and yes uppity Negroes face it too), lack of health coverage, failing public education in predominately black areas and other things? Black people are so busy trying to stick it to the rich man that they are missing the boat while everyone else knows well how this country and world works. African Americans are getting railroaded and ending up just like the white trash that raped their ancestors.

Isaiah and Oba, I'm reading you but I'm not sure I'm following where you two are differing in your opinions. Oba are you stating that Black Americans do need a leader but one that is different than a Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan?

Brother Isaiah, are you saying that Black Americans don't need a leader but need to take leadership stances individually by understanding the political and economic machinery in America and becoming active participants in those systems?

Where am I losing the thread between your two arguments?

Queenie :spinstar:

I'm saying black americans need real political figures that acknowledge and benefit blacks and their issues instead of patronizing their vote because they know it's gaurunteed. and stop acknowledging symbolic leaders that have no real benefit or use like the above mentioned. Like everyone else in this nation if you have no economical social and political power you are doomed to fail. and I am saying blacks need to take advantage of that instead of listening to people like farakahn.

Isaiah and Oba, I'm reading you but I'm not sure I'm following where you two are differing in your opinions. Oba are you stating that Black Americans do need a leader but one that is different than a Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan?

Brother Isaiah, are you saying that Black Americans don't need a leader but need to take leadership stances individually by understanding the political and economic machinery in America and becoming active participants in those systems?

Where am I losing the thread between your two arguments?

Queenie :spinstar:

Queenie, I am not hard and fast on any one route to the goal post(smile!) I'm flexible, and will not allow anyone to tell me that they've got the master plan... That's in the hands of The Creator, not Isaiah...

I am, however, saying that as I analyze our history in the United States, this thing about charismatic leadership that we have is over-rated... Doing the psycho analysis of these kinds of leaders is enough to alert me to their detriment to the collective, the group...

Additionally, my beautiful sister, so many wonderful things have been done by some unknown and unsung people in our communites over the years, that I am convinced that it is only because so many of us TALK and give power to the theory of Charismatic leadership, that we disempower those who could make a difference with proper inspiration and teaching... As I have read about the Fred Shuttlesworths, Clarice Carrie Ruffins, and Harry T. Moore's, I begin to understand how African Americans operated back in the day when it was not wise for ONE individual to stand out in the open, and proclaim themselves our leaders(smile!) In the era of Jim Crow, when African Americans could NOT VOTE, our communities produced the BEST and the MOST EFFECTIVE leadership we've ever had... Think about that...

If that be the case, it seems to me that we are actually exercising LESS POWER than we did when we didn't have the vote, and when we didn't have integration!!! At least then, we had some economic power, and could do our shopping with other Africans... Now that we have been integrated, and are wedded to the illusory notion that real power rests in our ability to vote, and elect people to office, we are actually less powerful... Interesting no???(smile!)

This is why I said earlier, that I believe POWER and LEADERSHIP are two different entities... A community can have power without leaders, but leaders aint got no power without the community... MLK was a ZERO without those Africans following him, same with Malcolm and Garvey, charismatic and brilliant as they were... What we need, in my humble opinion, is an educated community, which understands that it's social and economic unity gives it the power to self-determine it's affairs; a community that KNOWS from jumpstreet that it can select and deselect leaders at it's whim, based on that leader's effectiveness, is what we need... We do not need people playing the Skin Game with us, just folks who're gone do what we want them to do, what we are paying them to do... A torrent of false promises should always tip us off to the game a politician plans to run on us, too(smile!)

Finally, my argument with Brother Oba was based on some things he said regarding White Leadership... I am not an expert, but there are some things I do know about so-called White Man's Leadership(smile!) Aint White Man the one who wrote The Prince(Machiavelli), which is his deceitful and brutal blueprint for leadership - the one every single president of the united snakes of america has used in deceiving his white constituencies???(smile!) Got them - and seems like a whole lot of us - so deceived, they think he's brilliant... Call me silly if you like... But I do know betta(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

Brother Isaiah, based on what you just wrote, I am in agreement, particularly when you wrote: This is why I said earlier, that I believe POWER and LEADERSHIP are two different entities... A community can have power without leaders, but leaders aint got no power without the community. What we need, in my humble opinion, is an educated community, which understands that it's social and economic unity gives it the power to self-determine it's affairs; a community that KNOWS from jumpstreet that it can select and deselect leaders at it's whim, based on that leader's effectiveness, is what we need... We do not need people playing the Skin Game with us, just folks who're gone do what we want them to do, what we are paying them to do... A torrent of false promises should always tip us off to the game a politician plans to run on us, too(smile!)

Oba (I don't know if you're a brother/sister or else I would show you more respect by acknowledging you as either), I agree with your statement as well to the following extent: I'm saying black americans need real political figures that acknowledge and benefit blacks and their issues instead of patronizing their vote because they know it's gaurunteed. and stop acknowledging symbolic leaders that have no real benefit or use like the above mentioned. Like everyone else in this nation if you have no economical social and political power you are doomed to fail.

Now my question to you both is, at some point when it's clear that we need someone to represent Blacks in the political arena, be it that they are called a leader or whatever, do you think it matters whether that person be Black or not?

Queenie :spinstar:

Now my question to you both is, at some point when it's clear that we need someone to represent Blacks in the political arena, be it that they are called a leader or whatever, do you think it matters whether that person be Black or not?

Queenie :spinstar:

I am not certain that it must be an African person, but that is what I would prefer... I have gone on record at this board as having a preference for some sisters to enter into prominent positions of leadership... Give sisters a chance to show their mettle, and exhibit their wit and intelligence on a larger stage...

Personally, I have completely soured on political leadership... I think that even when you've got principled leadership in politics, the process is so convoluted and corrupted, it is bound to frustrate the best and brightest of us, causing them to flounder around, and look as if they are doing nothing... Our most effective leadership has come from the grassroots - with the possible exception being Adam Clayton Powell... Adam became effective after he gained seniority, and that's the problem... It simply takes so long to come to a position of real power in Congress, that folk appear as if they've been doing nothing for a long, long time(smile!)

I would that we would develop leadership in schools developed by our communities... Create Generals and Admirals just like the United States does, right here among our youth, boys and girls... This would empower PEOPLE, and not the politicians, and that is what I would like to see... Power to the people...

Peace!
isaiah

Well I rarely see Mexicans speaking for the Vietnamese community so I wouldn’t expect non-blacks to speak for blacks, although I see Caucasian liberals do it all the time. I think with a stable community blacks would be a lot better off. Hmm how can I put this, have a united community similar to how it was pre civil rights (economical and socially between blacks) while taking advantage of the rights gained now and having reps in the community and leaders that will help to obtain the resources needed to cure some of the problems that unnecessarily persist in the black community.

yeah im a dude lol

What a ridiculous thread! I don't need a leader. But if you feel you do, then you go get one; blind sheep.

What we need is cohesion. We all need to think like leaders, but be willing to follow. Get it!? knowing who has the best vision, and being willing to step to the side and play as a teammate in that effort is just as important as leadership.


Black is Still beautiful!!!
************* (http://www.*************)

deb0...your tone sounds bitter and you act as though someone is forcing you to participate in this discussion. You say the thread is ridiculous YET you find the need to add your opinion. For whatever it's worth, thank you for sharing and I sincerely hope that you find other threads that are appealing to your interests.

Queenie :spinstar:

I apologize, I never meant to be confrontational or negative. To me, its a very simple question that has a very simple answer.

Sometimes, I think we as people make a subject more complext than it really deserves to be. That's the point of my statement of the thread being riduculous.

Children need leaders. Adults need cohesion. That's where I was coming from.
Just think what all the people on this board could do if they did it TOGETHER instead of doing it behind a leader? Feel me now!?!!?

Again, my apologiies.

I apologize, I never meant to be confrontational or negative. To me, its a very simple question that has a very simple answer.

Sometimes, I think we as people make a subject more complext than it really deserves to be. That's the point of my statement of the thread being riduculous.

Children need leaders. Adults need cohesion. That's where I was coming from.
Just think what all the people on this board could do if they did it TOGETHER instead of doing it behind a leader? Feel me now!?!!?

Again, my apologiies.

deb0, thank you for your humble apology for it is graciously received! :bowdown:

The clarification and points you make are excellent and I agree with you for the most part. I fully appreciate the value of us becoming a more cohesive group that collaborates in more positive ways overall. To say the least, we, as African Americans can definitely benefit from a more universal understanding of this concept and it would be nice if we were as focused on that as opposed to the things that hold us back. However, I still think that at some point in the process our r/evolution, there's a place and a need for uniform and consistent guidance whether it be in the form of an individual or group. Our political system in America and one that is becoming more common around the world bears this point out very well, I think.

Queenie :spinstar:

Oba, what do you have against Minister Farrakhan? Also, are you an African born in Amerikkka?

Wondering????

YOU'RE A SORRY @$$ INDIVIDUAL IF YOU NEED SOMEONE TO LEAD YOU!

THAT'S MY "BIG" OPINION.

Are you saying you've never been led before or followed anyone, Bigtown?

Queenie :spinstar:

WHAT DO BLACK PEOPLE NEED A LEADER FOR QUEEN? WHERE DO YOU EXPECT TO BE LEAD TO? YEARS AFTER THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, AND WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR MARTIN LUTHER KING PART II. GIMMME A BREAK.


THAT'S MY "BIG" OPINION.

Does anyone think having one leader takes away from the message that is being given? I mean, we all know how people like to make celebrities out of everyone nowadays. Wouldn't it be more of a distraction to have one person delivering a message and being "our leader". I think we should be on the same page as a whole instead of relying on one person. I don't know, to me it just seems like it would turn into more of an individual thing and the message would be lost.

UNTIL BLACK FOLKS START MARRYING AND GET OUT OF THIS SINGLE PARENT MESS AND START RAISING OUR CHILDREN TOGETHER AS A FAMILY. START GIVING OUR CHILDREN KNOWLEDGE A VALUE SYSTEM AND AN IDENTITY, AINT NO SO CALLED "LEADER" GOING TO MAKE A CRAP OF DIFFERENCE.

1. MALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN THE HOME IS LEAST LIKELY TO COMMIT A CRIME
2.FEMALE WITH FATHER IN HOME IS LEAST LIKELY TO BECOME A TEEN MOTHER.
3.MALE AND FEMALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN HOME ARE LESS LIKELY TO DROP OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL.
4.MALE AND FEMALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN HOME ARE MORE LIKELY TO PERSUE A HIGHER FORM OF EDUCATION.

"LEADERS" ARE TALKING HEADS ON T.V. BEFORE THE MEDIA DISMANTLES THEIR CREDABILITY.

THAT'S MY "BIG" OPINION.

My leader is God and the Word, my leaders are the spirit of my mother and father and all the wonderful and encouraging advise they gave, my leader is the spirit of my ancestors who wanted us to be free, my leader is anyone who bucks the racists system and put his or her life on the line for Black people, yes that includes, Mugabe, Farrakhan, Maxine Waters, Babara Lee, and all those Black folks that have literally risked their very lives and lost their lives for the freedom of African people.

Maybe we are having problems with the word "leaders" but to me these are role models. These are people that changed my life for the better.

Am I following them like sheep and waiting on bated breath to do what they tell me to do? Heck no!, but they are examples for all of to emulate. Their fearless spirit has lead me to do fearless things myself.

So the answer is yes, some people are simply born to lead, born to show us the way, and as far as I am concerned we should take what they have done and use it to better our selves, our children, our community and our African world.

Well, I guess we have to judge by what we witness with our own eyes and that includes what we see in terms of individuals and groups and what they do or don't do in our behalf. It's interesting that some don't seem to find any value in a single leader yet we give people permission to lead us every day--and we willfully follow. There's nothing unusual about having leaders in societies and most groups do, yet some Black people think it's ludicrous or completely unnecessary for us to have them or even given consideration to any. If we can voluntarily follow ministers and other religious leaders, even our supervisors on the job and others like them, then why can't we seem to see clear as to consider ANY benefit that having a leader(s) might have to carry forward a common message and further a group cause? When you go to the voting booths in November, aren't you going to be voting for leadership? Because Black people can't agree on this or many other topics, what should we do, just continue to be different than any other group of people by doing it alone or individually--every man for himself? Because Martin got killed even though our civil rights movement was strong, and things seem to come to a screeching halt for Blacks afterwards, we should give up on ever trying to come together again by developing someone who thinks like we do and can speak on our behalf in places where it really counts? Although some may "poo poo" on the value of a leader, when you stop to compare the movement of Blacks when we had them during the 60s, to where we are today, weren't we more politically active then than we are now? How realistic is it to wait for the day that we all think alike and behave alike as citizens, parents, husbands, wives and children?

These are just a few questions that cross my mind as I read the various opinions offered on this topic. I'm not saying we NEED to have a single leader, but I'm wondering whether we're really better off without one or even a group, than we could be if we had someone who was willing to stand up and take the "shots" that a great many of us don't seem to be willing to take!

Just some more random thoughts on what appears to be a very relevant subject.

Queenie :thinking:

Well, I guess we have to judge by what we witness with our own eyes and that includes what we see in terms of individuals and groups and what they do or don't do in our behalf. It's interesting that some don't seem to find any value in a single leader yet we give people permission to lead us every day--and we willfully follow. There's nothing unusual about having leaders in societies and most groups do, yet some Black people think it's ludicrous or completely unnecessary for us to have them or even given consideration to any. If we can voluntarily follow ministers and other religious leaders, even our supervisors on the job and others like them, then why can't we seem to see clear as to consider ANY benefit that having a leader(s) might have to carry forward a common message and further a group cause? When you go to the voting booths in November, aren't you going to be voting for leadership? Because Black people can't agree on this or many other topics, what should we do, just continue to be different than any other group of people by doing it alone or individually--every man for himself? Because Martin got killed even though our civil rights movement was strong, and things seem to come to a screeching halt for Blacks afterwards, we should give up on ever trying to come together again by developing someone who thinks like we do and can speak on our behalf in places where it really counts? Although some may "poo poo" on the value of a leader, when you stop to compare the movement of Blacks when we had them during the 60s, to where we are today, weren't we more politically active then than we are now? How realistic is it to wait for the day that we all think alike and behave alike as citizens, parents, husbands, wives and children?

These are just a few questions that cross my mind as I read the various opinions offered on this topic. I'm not saying we NEED to have a single leader, but I'm wondering whether we're really better off without one or even a group, than we could be if we had someone who was willing to stand up and take the "shots" that a great many of us don't seem to be willing to take!

Just some more random thoughts on what appears to be a very relevant subject.

Queenie :thinking:

You are so right Queenie, you know, some of us are our own leaders and that is real and should be the case, but when it comes to politics, and injustice to a group of people, most of us are not willing and in some cases able to buck the systematic racist way that this country deals with us.

How many of us could call a million man march that affected the way men acted after the march? HOw many of us would have been willing to be the only one to say that they did not agree with the war in Iraq, (Babara Lee did that in case some of us don't know), sorry but I didn't see a lot of us deal with racial profiling like Al Sharpton did, his actions caused serious rethinking on how police do business in our cities.

Now are any of these people the ultimate leader, the only leader, No. But they are leaders nevertheless, and for what they have done they should be praised and respected.

pdiane, thank you for adding your wise perspective to this discussion because you are correct. When Black people mess up, we tend to "throw the baby out with the bath water", so to speak. We have no qualms about overlooking even some of the good that people do, because of something else they did that wasn't so good. I include myself in this group because of my reaction to and dismissal of Bill Cosby caused by his recent commentary.

This discussion is really causing me to stop and take a good look at myself and others among us as we express our thoughts about this issue. Are we so angry or bitter because of what we see happening in our communities that we can't see how we may be hurting ourselves more by the limitations we place on us that are no one's fault but our own?

Sure, there are a lot of things Black people SHOULD and COULD be doing to better our condition in society and the fact is, that many of us are. But acting independently, what impression or impact is what we are doing alone having on us as a whole?

We need a mass movement don't you think? A movement that consists of people with more in common than our differences. A movement that is led by strong and brave and competent leadership. We need a movement of collective ideas and strategically placed energy that is constant and driven by a common purpose. We don't have to all want the same things except the desire to rid ourselves of a society that is determined to keep us down and hold us back and disenfranchise us as a group.

Everyone in the "group" have daily and important tasks to perform and responsibilities to uphold. Parents, children, teachers, businesspeople, spiritual leaders, politicians, mentors, etc., all have an obligation to live by a standard that propels us toward our common goal. When this mass movement becomes cohesive and people begin to sit up and take notice, we know perfectly well what "the man" will do, but if we stick together, we will overcome the barriers.

Leaders may not be worth much to some, but they can at least take our message to the Congress, to the news media, to the pulpits around the nation, to the U.S. Supreme Court if need be, to the "White" House, etc. and the world will be watching and listening. Individually, we can do our part by being good leaders in our homes, as parents, as teachers in schools, spiritual guides in churches, social and political activists in our communities.

There's so much more that we all can do, but we have to stop sitting around and just talking about what we should do and do it.

Queenie :spinstar:

No doubt my sister, look at the political action group in Detroit "Call em OUt". They are kicking you know what and taking no prisoners. They came to Boston and told us of their stratergy in terms of getting rid of politicians (black and white) that are no good to Black folks in Detroit.

Their position may seem radical to some but they have sturred up so much trouble that they have forced the mayor to change, counselors to change and they are in the process of working with Claud Anderson, a profound economist and author on establishing an African Village, that will comprise of entrapreneurship unity among Blacks in Detroit.

People can read about them on google of course.

They are the examples of leadership.

As a matter of fact, the people in Boston voted in droves to get the first Black woman to be the Head of the Sheriffs department and that is not easy feat. Boston is run by the irish and guess what, with our vote she beat her irish opponent. Wow, wow, that was so wonderful. She has already gotten rid of 20 abusive corrections officers and the their union is up in arms. Oh well!

They had a sign in the Black community of Roxbury, next to a prison, on a highway entrance that says "If you do a crime you would be home by now". She got that taken down immediatley.

Let us not give up on good leadership. Let us help them.

Yes I'm an African born in America I do not like symbolic MLK/Malcolm X type leadership it is silly and irrelevant to me it makes blacks look incompetent. I think people have got a different idea of leader than I do. What I am saying is that blacks need someone, or a group, to address and remedy some of the bigger realistic issues in the black communities that shouldn't exist, i.e. education, medical care, home ownership and rental, and economic opportunities. I mean those guys were fine and dandy for the things in 1965 but I’m talking about the real world and real problems that should have been remedied years ago. And little to no one especially them talk about them except for the people suffering and they’re usually ignored, and liberals who patronize blacks for votes rarely do anything about it short of maybe HFH (habitat) and that’s only if it happens to be in their area. if someone needs a leader to tell them how to raise their children they're just retarded. those types of things are cultural problems that need to be worked out over time nobody can fix that.



And on Farrakhan the guy just seems like a con artist and TV hound to me, he’s like the American Obasanjo he doesn’t have a real purpose. He attracted many people to DC back in 95 with a bunch of other groups which put him in a position for people to listen and ask him what really are problems facing blacks in America? And he took a trip to Europe and then called for 2 more marches, which = nothing. I mean if that’s your group fine but I know a hustler when I see one and like many who represent blacks world wide, he’s just another hustler using blacks to gain glory and money. Because his newspaper reports the crime and poverty going on in Illinois all the time, the brutal cops in calumet city and that wacko mayor and police in Cicero that terrorize blacks, the disgusting blatant housing discrimination lil’ richies office has been practicing on African Americans in Chicago since he got in office. But his organization doesn’t do or say anything about it. If you’re not willing to take responsibility for the role you claimed (because nobody appointed him) then have the balls to take responsibility for it.

"And on Farrakhan the guy just seems like a con artist and TV hound to me, he’s like the American Obasanjo he doesn’t have a real purpose. He attracted many people to DC back in 95 with a bunch of other groups which put him in a position for people to listen and ask him what really are problems facing blacks in America? And he took a trip to Europe and then called for 2 more marches, which = nothing. I mean if that’s your group fine but I know a hustler when I see one and like many who represent blacks world wide, he’s just another hustler using blacks to gain glory and money..."

YOu know what brother, I am not going to even try to convince you of that Minister Farrakhan is a good man. You are clearly a victim of white supremist media literacy. But get your facts straight he went to Africa after the MMM not Europe. Any way, I don't know a lot of hustlers who have schools, farmland, newpapers, trucks, land in Africa, prison programs, counseling programs and the list goes on.

The fact of the matter is that Black people are stubborn and most of us have the illusion of inclusion and don't want to leave the white man's side no matter how many Marcus Gaveys, Malcom X's, Elijah Muhammad's, Queen Mother Moore, Harriet Tubman's, Lumumbas, Mugabes, Nkrumah's, Nzinga's, Clara Muhammad's there are who told us and are telling us to get away from these people and their way of life.

So please, don't blame it on the leadership, blame it on us! We want to stay here and suffer. Plain and simple. We think these people are going to wake up one day and change and love us. And for you to sit up here and talk about leadership who are doing something in our community.

Let me ask you brother, what are you doing? Let us all sit back and listen to your efforts and plans, since you are so critical of others.

That’s just the thing I'm not claiming to be some leader of blacks, and he isn't doing anything, he went to Europe and he went to Africa, he actually supported Al Bashir, and Sani Abacha, 2 of the most detestable and detrimental people in black history. He didn't touch on the human smuggling of African children in Naija and the slavery of Dinkas and Nobas in southern Sudan, or the killing of Nubians in the dafur region. He hasn't helped blacks, nor did Elijah Poole or that white man Wallace Dodd ford aka fard Mohammed, I'm not victim of the white media, I just know that he has his snakes as our leaders and, on that one point you are right, its our fault we let them lead us.

Again brothers and sisters many of us are missing the true concept of leadership. There are many forms of leadership the one I will touch on is the leadership we as a people need. I will start by saying that anyone who does not thinks they need a leader has a false sense of what being civilized or living among a civilization is. I think those individuals are confusing a leader with a dictator. I agree that no one needs a dictator or a tyrant or a despot. Take the word leader and replace it with representative. We need a representative. We need representation. We need to represent. The key word here is "we" not "I". Let's compare African Americans to a freighttrain. What make a freighttrain successful? A freighttrain's success depends on several factors. No component of a freighttrain is greater than the other. The boxcars and tankers are useless without the engine pulling them and engine without cars of freight to pulled serves no purpose. Brothers and Sisters do you see where I'm going here. I left one thing out and this is the most important aspect of a freighttrain; the track. Before a freighttrain can go anywhere there must be a track between where the train is and where it's going. Look closely at this dynamic. The engine pulls the cars to their destination all on the same track. So my point is before we consider leaders we all must be on the same track.

Peace

Radical Faith

What does your name mean?

And with that response, I am certainly more inclined to support the emergence of leaders. Would you agree that leaders are best or most effective and valued when forged from a cohesive group?

UNTIL BLACK FOLKS START MARRYING AND GET OUT OF THIS SINGLE PARENT MESS AND START RAISING OUR CHILDREN TOGETHER AS A FAMILY. START GIVING OUR CHILDREN KNOWLEDGE A VALUE SYSTEM AND AN IDENTITY, AINT NO SO CALLED "LEADER" GOING TO MAKE A CRAP OF DIFFERENCE.

1. MALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN THE HOME IS LEAST LIKELY TO COMMIT A CRIME
2.FEMALE WITH FATHER IN HOME IS LEAST LIKELY TO BECOME A TEEN MOTHER.
3.MALE AND FEMALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN HOME ARE LESS LIKELY TO DROP OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL.
4.MALE AND FEMALE WITH BOTH PARENTS IN HOME ARE MORE LIKELY TO PERSUE A HIGHER FORM OF EDUCATION.

"LEADERS" ARE TALKING HEADS ON T.V. BEFORE THE MEDIA DISMANTLES THEIR CREDABILITY.

THAT'S MY "BIG" OPINION.


BigTown nails it down! Frame this Post Plz!!!!!

I don't believe we need a leader...

We need leaders because we have so many different communiteis in this land.

Those leaders need to have a common goal, a common agenda, a common mindset, so as not to have division within the communities.

To have one believing love thy neighbor and 2 have one believing by any means necessary will show a weakness, a seperation.

As brother Malcolm said, "we must first have black-black solidarity before we can have black-white solidarity".

Peace.

Sister... two years later and the answer is still clearly... YES!

i don't know about who i think it should be... i'll have to think on that for a minute... however... the person who would have the greatest chance to be deemed 'leader' would be Barack Obama

the person who would have the greatest chance to be deemed 'leader' would be Barack Obama

He didn't even have the balls to vote along with the other Democrats (white) to fillibuster Sam Alito a few months ago...how the hell is he gonna lead black people? :lol: We don't need a leader, we need to individually get a backbone then come together and build up ourselves in whatever society we want to be in. If our leaders want to come along after that, then fine as long as they get their ***** together too. Our "leaders" are a joke.

400yrs and we're[STILL]lookin for the messiah,we've come close-mlk-malcolm-frederick douglas,but in this day and age i don't see any,so we'd better do the best we can and lead ourselves.

I think it's very important for us to have a leader. Someone to be the spokesperson for the majority. No, that doesn't mean they soley make all the decisions. Such decisions should be organized so every interested Black person gets to vote on the decisions and the overall votes rules. To give one person to much power would be a mistake. This way we keep the the decisions governed by the people and not a selected group of people.

We need to take control of our own fate whilst having one person represent it.

"Do we need a leader" nah ..............I'll pass on having some cat I've never met speak for me........and be considered "my leader" that's ok....



MississippiRed

I would be more comfortable with certain progressive individuals forming a sort of "Black Congress" and having equal power, influence and responsibiliy. That way, if one takes a bribe and tries to sell us out, the others will have a say in getting rid of them. They have to be people that have no history or desire to take money, endorsements or anything from white people. I don't like the idea of having one person with the camera in his/ her face all the time, talking to media all the time and having more power than anyone else. Even that "Black Congress" should be funded entirely by black people, because we are very critical people. If something is not moving in the direction that we'd want it to go, we should vote to replace people and pull money if it continues. I think that sort of model is better than having one leader, because one leader can easily be corrupted or killed off. If you have a whole orginization (a real one, not the NAACP), comprised of individual, progressive black people acting soley in the interest of black people, you can't buy them all off or kill them all without raising a whole lot of eyebrows. It should not be corporate type individuals that are dead set on making a buck, because they take pay-offs and sell us out just like white people do. I'm not talking 5 people either, I'm talking about 20 or so who all have equal power and who all constantly make moves to help black people. Maybe more than that depending on the amount of people who qualify themselves as real and serious about progress. Not the religious, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton type leaders either. It has flaws of course, but so does every plan.

"Do we need a leader" nah ..............I'll pass on having some cat I've never met speak for me........and be considered "my leader" that's ok....



MississippiRed


I haven't read through all of the post but Brother how do you suggest we handle the political issues of Black People? If you posted it already, I would love to read the link.

I can't see how ("we") individually can speak on issues and collectively come to one agreement or process to implement. We are so diverse in our thinking. I keep getting this picture of us arguing at the podium and never leaving go.

If anyone can help me see how this can be done without appointing someone as a spokeperson, it would be much appreciated.

I haven't read through all of the post but Brother how do you suggest we handle the political issues of Black People? If you posted it already, I would love to read the link.

I can't see how ("we") individually can speak on issues and collectively come to one agreement or process to implement. We are so diverse in our thinking. I keep getting this picture of us arguing at the podium and never leaving go.

If anyone can help me see how this can be done, it would be much appreciated.


To be honest I don't have an answer.........but think something akin to what Kente proposed be the best way to go........


MississippiRed

We need to take control of our own fate ...if one is "looking for leaders", the implication is that one is a "follower".

any putative leaders are gonna have the same number of arms, legs; the same cardio-vascular system, the same central nervous system and the same cerebral cortex. i guess the difference must be in how that stuff is used?

asking this sort of question, begging your pardon, is the cop-out that keeps us where we are. no? and to fan the flames even further; shows the "demasculisation(sp?)" (in general; NOT gender specific) of our society/culture. "life's a beach and then you fry".

children hate to hear it said: sometimes the right thing to do is really, REALLY hard - but it still must be done/said. i reckon it is even harder for adults to hear!

"the axe is in your hands!"

To be honest I don't have an answer.........but think something akin to what Kente proposed be the best way to go........


MississippiRed

Yeah, I like his idea too.

if one is "looking for leaders", the implication is that one is a "follower".

any putative leaders are gonna have the same number of arms, legs; the same cardio-vascular system, the same central nervous system and the same cerebral cortex. i guess the difference must be in how that stuff is used?

asking this sort of question, begging your pardon, is the cop-out that keeps us where we are. no? and to fan the flames even further; shows the "demasculisation(sp?)" (in general; NOT gender specific) of our society/culture. "life's a beach and then you fry".

children hate to hear it said: sometimes the right thing to do is really, REALLY hard - but it still must be done/said. i reckon it is even harder for adults to hear!

"the axe is in your hands!"

I hear ya but like you said it may all depend on how that stuff is used. We all aren't design to lead in the same areas. You may be exceptional at battle techniques. I may be exceptional at organizing the weapons. At some point we must learn to trust someone else.

I think the cop-out is not asking the question at all. There is more than one way to rock a boat. If everybody is rocking the boat using different methods at diffferent times, we stand a greater chance of flipping the boat over instead of moving forward.

I'm hearing you though and see where you are coming from too. Correct me if I'm wrong, basically your'e saying we shouldn't wait for a leader to handle ours, we need to be putting in the work ourselves. I agree and we would be. The people would be dictating to the spokeperson/s what it is they want accomplished and how they want it accomplished. Not vice versa. The spokesperson would only be relaying the message because this is his area of specialties. He knows how to make an greater impression by using one voice to address many.

Is Bush a "leader"? If so, what makes you think that he is? If not, why not?

Hotep

It is obvious that "Truth" is not popular, it brings out resentment, anger, imbarisment, humiliation, jelousy, envy to only those who have something to "hide". If the "Preachers" would begin to tell the absolute "Truth" to their congragations starting this "Sunday"...their members would be gone and the church, masjid, temple, synagoge would probly have to close for "Lack" of support and money. Mostly no one wants to hear the "Real-Truth" because that would men that "We" all would have to go to work to "Clean" our selves up to be truely exceptable to G-d. Most are not ready to make a true and honest commitment to our selves, family, communities or G-d to be what we are suppose to be. We all make excuses to support our "Weakneses" and are not willing to give up our "Bad" habits but would rather fight to keep them in the closet and behind closed doors...hence "The only ones who fear or hate the Truth are those who have something to hide".
We have become use to and have resign our selves to allow "White People" to pick and choose those so-called "Leaders" who only they except for "Us" and who are approved by them. We in our personal arogance and short comings only approve those among us who will except our "Weakneses" and won't demand us to change...then and only then we will give them our over all support to build a big and mighty house of so-called "Worship". In the End we are only fooling ourselves by excepting "Corruption".
There are "Universal Laws" that are left over from the old times or ancient times befor men and women allowed them selves to except being "Corrupted" by "False" ideas and habits. One of the "universal Laws" is..."You must be a good follower before you can be a good Leader". If one can not follow there is no change of that one ever becoming a good Leader, hence...the Tyrent, Dictators, Emperors and Kings who "Force" their wills on the "Masses" with the hands of "Fear and Intimidation", death, torture , oppression and slavery. Another universal law is...when ever there is more than one persons together and is going to a meeting it is most "wise" for the group to pick one from among them to speak and the others say nothing unles personaly addressed. It is also known among all wise men and women of the Earth that the so called Christ, Masiah or Mahdi is one who is forever to "come" meaning that there will always be one from among a people who will be that one to speak with the "Voice" of that people as we have had in our time with MLK, Elijah Muhammad and others and this will continue into the distant future for ever...they will continue to come. A leader is born and not chosen by any one except G-d but even then there will always be those who will not except his or her leadership as history tell "Us". We say privately to our selves or to the others who are weak..."Who does he / she thing he or she is and if we don't like what is being said well must distroy and kill that one as history also tell us has happen but only by those who have allowed them selves to "Become Corrupted" by false ideas that they want to continue to practice.

Ase`

Note: A true leader will never be one chosen by populer opinyon unles it is ment to appear to be*

Is Bush a "leader"? If so, what makes you think that he is? If not, why not?

No, he's a puppet. He doesn't have power to make decision. Congress calls the shots. He just does as he is told.

He didn't even have the balls to vote along with the other Democrats (white) to fillibuster Sam Alito a few months ago...how the hell is he gonna lead black people? :lol: We don't need a leader, we need to individually get a backbone then come together and build up ourselves in whatever society we want to be in. If our leaders want to come along after that, then fine as long as they get their ***** together too. Our "leaders" are a joke.

that's a good point... sometimes if we must have a leader s/he has to be white people friendly and not visibly threatening to them... and then i think there is no way in hell that s/he would get anywhere... that person must be able to ruffle some feathers... then i think... how the hell is s/he supposed to get anywhere doing that... so i don't know... shame to admit it...

you have to learn how to play the game.... if you don't invovled then how can you ever change the rules from the outside? we gotta get in the game first... btw.. someone said something about G W being a puppet.. that congress had all the power... so by default since we vote these people into power then we have the power... why can't we come together to take it back and put people in the seats who represent what 'we' want....

anyhoo... as long as there is so much discord in the black community there won't be a community to lead... so i guess you are correct.. we need to get a backbone personally...before we can do anything about anything collectively...

We all have leaders in our lives in different arenas (spiritual, cultural, political, etc.), whether it's someone in our community or our misguided (or rightly guided) selves. It is naive to look back at our history and contend that we ever had a leader that was accepted by everyone. It's just not the case. It didn't happen with Malcolm or Martin, although we repeatedly bring them up now since they're dead. Those that lead today who try to follow in the legacy of previous leaders are not respected and accepted by everyone either.

What type of leader are we looking for? Someone who will unite all Black people? To do what exactly? We have proven time and time again that we can always find fault in those who do stand up to lead us, so why would anyone step up to the plate anyway? We are often ungrateful and suspicous of our own Black leaders without cause, but give white folks all the passes in the world because we believe what they tell us. Many of of our great Black leaders (Paul Robeson, Marcus Garvey, etc. etc.) died alone, broke, and heartbroken, not by white folks, but by us. I personally don't think we deserve anymore leadership. If we haven't figured it out by now we justify the end of our own existence in any progressive manner.

Many of of our great Black leaders (Paul Robeson, Marcus Garvey, etc. etc.) died alone, broke, and heartbroken, not by white folks, but by us. I personally don't think we deserve anymore leadership. If we haven't figured it out by now we justify the end of our own existence in any progressive manner.


Wow, I agree. We really don't take care of our own, and this is why even black people who would be interested in leading us, probably opt out. Also, they have seen that we don't hold on to the ideas that are set before us after our past leaders have passed on, so why would some waste their time, just to see us fall right back into the same situation. Like I said, first we need to get some backbone and individual get it together. Maybe then we will support eachother and hold on to ideas that serve our best interest, even if the "leader" is jailed, killed or corrupted.

Wow, I agree. We really don't take care of our own... Like I said, first we need to get some backbone and individually get it together. Maybe then we will support eachother

Interesting truths Brother.

We have proven time and time again that we can always find fault in those who do stand up to lead us, so why would anyone step up to the plate anyway? We are often ungrateful and suspicous of our own Black leaders without cause, but give white folks all the passes in the world because we believe what they tell us. Many of of our great Black leaders (Paul Robeson, Marcus Garvey, etc. etc.) died alone, broke, and heartbroken, not by white folks, but by us. I personally don't think we deserve anymore leadership. If we haven't figured it out by now we justify the end of our own existence in any progressive manner.

Yeah, we do need leadership but we don't support our leadership when they're out there risking it all for us. We just want a leader to go out there and kinda do magic for us without it costing us any time-money-work. :look:

You know what they say, "People ultimately get the leadership they deserve."

Yeah, we do need leadership but we don't support our leadership when they're out there risking it all for us. We just want a leader to go out there and kinda do magic for us without it costing us any time-money-work. :look:

You know what they say, "People ultimately get the leadership they deserve."

Very true... even some of our greatest leaders didn't do it alone.

Whether people agree that Bush is a leader or not, he's out front in the public eye being touted by his supporters and partners as one, to move a mutual political agenda. He's the spokesperson for his supporters and he has a certain amount of power (public and private) that comes with being in that position. He has access to and can easily move and operate in circles of other powerful people. He must be recognized by people around the world because of his position. Because of his position, he can influence stock markets around the world, he controls a powerful and sophisticated military. Now, this may not be a "leader" is some people's eyes, but whatever you want to call it, it's something that the Black community can benefit from if we had that kind of power.

Some of us think we need a leader, and some don't. One thing we probably all agree on is the fact that those among us who have been leaders in the past have seldom, if ever died of old age or from natural causes. That is definitely an occupational hazard that few would voluntarily opt for.

Bush and his supporters are able to realize their dreams today. Black people choose to wait by trying to change one person at a time....individually. At that rate, none of us will most likely see much change for the better on a massive scale for Blacks, in our lifetimes--unless some drastic action (whatever that might be) is taken, and reasonably soon.

Whether people agree that Bush is a leader or not, he's out front in the public eye being touted by his supporters and partners as one, to move a mutual political agenda. He's the spokesperson for his supporters and he has a certain amount of power (public and private) that comes with being in that position. He has access to and can easily move and operate in circles of other powerful people. He must be recognized by people around the world because of his position. Because of his position, he can influence stock markets around the world, he controls a powerful and sophisticated military. Now, this may not be a "leader" is some people's eyes, but whatever you want to call it, it's something that the Black community can benefit from if we had that kind of power.

Some of us think we need a leader, and some don't. One thing we probably all agree on is the fact that those among us who have been leaders in the past have seldom, if ever died of old age or from natural causes. That is definitely an occupational hazard that few would voluntarily opt for.

Bush and his supporters are able to realize their dreams today. Black people choose to wait by trying to change one person at a time....individually. At that rate, none of us will most likely see much change for the better on a massive scale for Blacks, in our lifetimes--unless some drastic action (whatever that might be) is taken, and reasonably soon.


Well, I agree in that context... but I think it's also important if one takes a view we need a leader that the people they choose are leading in a proper direction. On the same token though, we can't pick on every little flaw if overall they're doing good.

For example, some have criticized Farrakhan for whatever reason. Some have even criticized Martin Luther King. :confused: But if you look at what these men did OVERALL it has been something positive... that is what needs to be the main focus.

I think sometimes people get too sucked in by 'leaders' that have a lot of charisma, but when it boils down to it aren't leading... yet some discredit other leaders because they have a different approach or judging by some other factors.

However, this is not to say that if a leader goes adamently against your goals, that you don't have a right not to accept their representation.

We obviously need leadership, not necessarily "one" leader. One thing we should have learned from our history is that we need a group of leaders because if a lone Black leader is moving large numbers of us in a positive direction, he or she will be brought down in one way or another.

Has there been any group of people in history that moved in a way that advances them without a leader or a body of leaders, like a council? I don't think so, but would like for someone to prove me wrong.

Of course, Bush is a leader. Disgruntled ones of us don't want to recognize him as one because he is obviously not our leader, but he is one.

So we need a compelling leadership group with vision and goals that the majority of us will embrace that will pull and push us into making that vision a reality. However, this group of leaders should not be in the public eye, for obvious reasons. There are ways that this could be done.

We obviously need leadership, not necessarily "one" leader. One thing we should have learned from our history is that we need a group of leaders because if a lone Black leader is moving large numbers of us in a positive direction, he or she will be brought down in one way or another.

Has there been any group of people in history that moved in a way that advances them without a leader or a body of leaders, like a council? I don't think so, but would like for someone to prove me wrong.

Of course, Bush is a leader. Disgruntled ones of us don't want to recognize him as one because he is obviously not our leader, but he is one.

So we need a compelling leadership group with vision and goals that the majority of us will embrace that will pull and push us into making that vision a reality. However, this group of leaders should not be in the public eye, for obvious reasons. There are ways that this could be done.


Great post Mayn! And welcome to Destee.com!

Great post Mayn! And welcome to Destee.com!

Thanks Kemetkind and I love your avatar. I'm embroidering a beautiful one similar to it.

BTW-where do y'all get the avatars?--just in case I want one here.