Sisters -

Are we spoiling men and causing them to become lazy by accepting behaviors, treatments, habits and attitudes that should be unacceptable? Are we creating problems for ourselves and each other by not holding men to a higher standard? Are we creating problems for ourselves and each other by not holding ourselves and each other to a higher standard when it comes to men? Are we making poor choices out of haste and pressure to have a man, i.e., getting emotionally and physically involved with an already committed man, or one who doesn't want to commit?

If we required/insisted/demanded better from men and each other, our relationships would improve. More marriages would be successful and our children more emotionally stable. And ultimately, our community will be better. Women have been known to influence men with our behavior, walk, talk, smell, touch, smile and mere femininity.

Can we influence more positive reactions and responses from men? Or...is it too late?

What do you think?????

Good question for the sisters, Anana. Being a woman, I tend to take a bias viewpoint on this topic. My comments are strictly confined to a woman's perspective. I think a lot (not all) Black women have settled too much when it comes to choosing a partner. I think that because society has changed in recent years, some Black women do raise their sons differently today than our mothers and grandmothers raised theirs. The family structure to some degree has become extremely relaxed and permissive. I wouldn't necessarily describe this as "spoiling" Black men, but I do agree it affects their behavior in negative ways. Regardless of the onslaught of negativism portrayed in music videos, television programs and the like, I still believe that if our homes were better managed, we might not be witnessing such an overwhelming impact in our homes and ultimately in our communities. In order to get our children back, help our men get on the right track, improve our relationships, make better choices, feel far less desperate and frustrated, Black women can't wait for the Black man to take the lead. Black women have the capacity to step up and speak out and get things done and our history proves that time and time again. I'll never forget reading the book "When and Where I Enter" by Paula Giddings which addresses that fact. Black women can open the door to setting her people free. If there's a problem that needs to be fixed with our relationships, Black women need to take a stand individually and collectively to improve the situation. If that requires that we practice some "tough" love, then so be it. True, some men might cross over to find other women that will let him do what he wants to do and that's okay. We can't prevent that. But I have to believe that there will enough Black men who are truly committed to his nubian queens to hang in there and work with her to make a better life for themselves and ultimately their communities.

Don't settle sisters. Hold out until someone comes to you with the qualities that you feel you deserve. Remember, if you don't expect much, then you'll never get much.

It feels chaotic now, but I believe that we (men & women) can step away from the complexity and the confusion of it all and begin to make better/positive decisions and choices. Because of the influence women have or can have, it can begin by demanding more & better (even from ourselves). Just like we made crazy statements like 'I don't need no man', we can begin to speak more positively. And let our actions copy our words.

Because, our young sisters are not going to listen to lip service, if more mature sisters are not setting better examples.

It can be a start.

NNQueen -

I agree with your statement that if we don't expect much, then we won't receive much. Because it seems like a hopeless case, it may take some 'tough love', rocky times, and even more lonely times for some of us, but we have to do it.

I have been told that I think that all problems can be solved by simply saying 'stop that'. So, I realize that the response to my 'first step' to solving the problem, for some, may be 'it's not that simple'.

Take care

Keme, in my opinion, what you describe are merely symptoms of a bigger problem. The behavior you describe that Black women have is not inherent in Black women, my brother. Black women didn't just one day wake up in the20th century and declare that she no longer needed the Black man for anything more than simply "stud" service as you describe it. As I've stated before, something is happening to cause Black men and Black women to hurt each other. Whatever that "something" is, makes most of us feel hopeless and helpless to find ways to stop the madness and turn things around for the better.

Keme, you sound very bitter toward Black women and you constantly place blame on us for all the negative things that happen to our race. You assign no responsibility to the so-called human walking erections (men). When did the Black man become a helpless victim of Black women?

Can't you see that it truly does take two to tango? Do you honestly believe that Black women are so uniquely different than women of other races and such ice queens that we don't want to give love to and receive healthy love from our Black men? I realize that there are the immature among us who are contributing to this every-growing belief that we're a troubled and lost people. But all is not lost because there are also those among us who do believe in us and continue to hope for a better future.

My brother...expand your mind. You're looking at things too superficiously. Black women alone aren't the problem! We are not your enemy. We are just as confused as our men as to how we got here. Pain is a symptom that something is wrong. Until we begin to communicate more openly about what hurts us and work on ways to stop the pain, we will continue to falter and wander blindly through this wilderness.

Have you ever seen the civil rights documentary, "Eyes On The Prize"? Given where we are today as a people, what do you think the prize is that we should keep our eyes on?

I believe that this is why HIV is so prevalent in our community. Is this Gods way of speaking to us to look at ourselves and what we are becoming. We continue to prove ourselves with our bodies, and our music and the video content seen on TV doesn't do us justice at all. I was shocked to learn that more men in their middle 30's and up are most impressioned by this hardcore rap music than the younger gender. Hey I would like to know what do we do, there is no need to blame, we are all in this together. This war is bigger than 9/11 we are at battle...for what?,..we are at war,..for what? it's everybodies fault but our own....why? and we are dying...because before you get yours,..I'm gonna get mines,...what's going on my black brothers and sisters.

I don't think it is too let to insist that our men step up to a higher roll and i do believe that our men treat us accordingly. If we are passive when it comes to our mens behavior then they will say hum... maybe i can do this this and this you are right we have to influence our men to become stronger in there life so in turn our families will also. Heres a thought maybe we should look at what roll history has played in our men being the way they are now. Ps Black men stay strong and the true sistas will always have your back.

Hi Special -

Living a righteous/clean life is an individual choice that should (and can be) be exercised for the well being and health of that individual, relationships, familes, our community and ultimately of our society. When choices are clouded with selfishness, ignorance, greed, etc., then everyone suffer - as we are now.

It is easy to do whatever one wants and then try to escape responsibilty for those actions. But we do it. It's easier to search for someone to 'put up' with us than to work and improve ourselves. But we do it.

Some people are going to do whatever they want. They are the people that go left just because someone suggest they go right. You can't tell some people nothing. That's the way it is, but does not mean we have to resign from doing right because others will not. Maybe some will be 'won over' from the actions of others: influence.

I will piggyback on what NNQueen stated and agree that we can't wait for men to step up. Or anyone, for that matter.

I know that the thought processes of some of us include selfishness and 'getting mine'. We are at war. Not a physical war, but one of principles, ways, thoughts, differences of opinion, etc.

What do we do? As an individual I must...
1. Know what is expected of me from God, myself and others.

2. Establish personal values and be honest about them. What I
want, what matters to me, etc.

3. Live according to my values that will enhance my life and
others around me, conscious of my decisions and choices.

4. Grow from experience.

Those are some things I share with my circle of sistah friends and especially to my neices, nephews, the girls in my Sunday School class, and the girl I mentor.

I know it starts with me, the people I touch, the people they touch and maybe it will eventually touch...you.

With Much Luv -

Hi Rain -

True. Our history has been plagued with abuse, wrongs and a whole heap of pain. But evenso, we are still here and we still have each other. If we think about what kept us going in spite of all that abuse, etc. We can do the same to rise above the abuse, wrongs & whole heap of pain we are causing ourselves and each other.

I have nothing against spoiling people that I genuinely care about. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with doing things to show affection for the purpose of contributing to another person's happiness. But is "spoiling" someone a reward for acceptable behavior or is it something that only makes the giver feel good? Shouldn't it be both?

I know that a lot people talk about unconditional love and I support that concept for the most part but I think even that doesn't happen without some boundaries. It's good to love someone so much that you don't put conditions on the relationship or expect things in return, however, I only see this genuinely happening in positive two-way relationships where there are positive outcomes for both partners.

When a partner exhibits behavior deemed unacceptable to either the other partner, to others outside the relationship or society as a whole, is it good to continue to spoil that person?

What are women afraid will happen if they stop "spoiling" their men and expect their behavior to change for the better? What is the WORST thing that could happen?

Faith, courage and discipline. All good qualities to practice but not always easy to do.

Hi NNQueen -

Faith, courage & discipline are sometimes very hard for me to practice consistently. I know that it would have been very easy for me to accept behaviors from men (and platonic friends) I knew were not good for me because I want to be loved, liked, etc. But these people would have strained my spirit with their toxic behaviors.

Do I get involve with a man because I know he will pay my bills even though he has shown me his mean side? Do I accept broken dates time after time, and accept that 'at least he showed up'? Do I continue in a relationship with a blatant womanizer to show my family that 'I have a man'? Am I going to be with someone to keep my family from asking 'does she like men'? I had to struggle with pressures from family and friends.

I am one of those sistahs that love hard. And I too spoil. I spend time during the day thinking...'now what can I do to make him smile today'. And because I love to cook, I'm thinking 'now what can I fix him good to eat.'

So when I am loving, I give the best of me. For me, a certain type of man will either make it easy for me or difficult. And I don't want it to be a chore nor someone I have to put up with.

My sister once said that, 'you're so hard on the men. You expect so much'. But God expects the best of me, I expect a lot from myself and so, I have to expect a lot from any man who expresses interest in sharing my life.

Some realized that I wasn't playing nor stuttering & moved on. Others tried to 'bring me down a peg or two' to show me. Still others tried to 'handle me'. While others just said that 'I don't have to work that hard for 'no woman'. Did I modify my values? No. Did it hurt? My feelings were very much hurt. But I was never afraid.

Why be afraid? Yes, a man may leave. So what? You'll still have you, and a better/stronger/healthier you. Even if you have to continue this life's journey without a 'him' in your life, the trip will still be good because you are equipped to do good for yourself and others. But if 'he' shows up, doesn't leave, and gives you his best, then you will have your best to give right back and not junk left over from what someone else you allowed to dump on your spirit.

So we are responsible for what we allow to be placed on our spirit. Will people generate energy to allow and help you to become a better you, or take so much energy as to leave you depleted?


Much Luv To Ya

I mentioned the word 'spoil' because a man told me once that he was spoiled. I tried to get him to be specific and tell me what the woman (women) did to spoil him, but no success. He was complaining about me and making a comparison.

I first got upset with him assuming that I would do what those other women did or were still doing (for all I knew), and for not paying attention to anything I said. But my attention left him and I began to think/focus on what these sistahs (who he referred to) were doing. Whatever if is/was, to him, they spoiled/are spoiling him.

When I specifically and clearly say what I am looking for, etc., and to assume that I was a potential 'booty call' kind of upset me a bit. I wasn't taken seriously, maybe thought that I would change my mind, maybe thought that he could pretend long enough to 'get some', etc. I realize, however, later that this is how he operates. But if you've already established your ground rules, it doesn't matter how anyone approaches you, what their MO is, or what their agenda is.

Then we can say what we mean (with clarity & firmness) and mean what we say. Even when somelse will do what you won't.

If we both want the same thing, no problem. But when I am not getting my needs met after we have discussed our life's goals, intentions, etc. I have a problem and have no desire, motivation to think of ways to keep a smile on his face or to fix him delicious and healthy food to eat.

To stand in a long line at the farmers market to buy fresh vegetables & fruit, and stand over a stove to fix him a good meal because it's something I can do to show my love, and tolerate unacceptable behavior would be spoiling him. My spirit would be bleeding, but he'll be happy.

Every person who visits this forum should read your messages here my sister!! Every man and every woman. You expressed some deep insight into what is really important in a relationship between a man and a woman. You painted a picture of how beautiful love can be between two people who care about and respect each other. What a blessing such a union would be if we would just hold out and wait for 'him/her' to arrive at the right place and in the right time. You could definitely teach a lesson to us all. Some of us might know what you speak of from personal experience; some of us may be hopeful that this kind of love is possible to have, but so few, including myself, have put it so eloquently. I could relate to everything you wrote. It made me pause several times to reflect on its meaning and each time I had to smile. Your message is filled with hope and not gloom and doom. It's a message about REAL love and not the kind where people just go through the motions. Wow, I don't mean to go on and on about this, but you really touched me. Thanks for the powerful message...:heart:



If it is to be, then it's up to me!

Anana, I agree with NNQueen, your message is straight to the point. I enjoyed reading this thread and I'm loving the way the sisters are expressing themselves.

What I find interesting is the way we have turned something good into something that is now frowned upon. "Spoiling" was once something that everyone (men and women) tried to do to their mates and it was good because it was received in the spirit that it was given. "Spoiling" is nothing more than loving someone. The difference now is how it is being received. "Spoiling" today has a stigma attached to it now. We no longer see it as love and receive it in the spirit that it is given, we now take advantage of that affection and characterize it as a sign of weakness. If someone is good to us today... we get suspicious! They're up to something. We have changed the perception of a "good" man or woman to a person that is boring. We have changed the perception of a person that is dependable to a person that is too predictable.

Someone will always be "spoiled" in a relationship. A good relationship is one where BOTH parties are "spoiled". The term "spoiled" in this sense means "loved"

I enjoyed the dialogue.

Hi Friends -

First I want to thank you all for letting me talk. I just lost my mother and she & my father were married for 55 years. 55 years!! Wow, I find myself saying. I've been thinking what it could possibly be like to be married to someone for so long, what it takes, how to keep it. I was there in the house, was it something 'special' they did.

Now -

My mother was one to crave attention. She had to have it, and my father gave it to her. So, I guess he spoiled her. She was a wonderful cook and put together a meal in no time flat. Even when we had the wooden stove. At the dinner table, well we had to have a picnic bench in the kitchen for all their 13 'chilren', he would go on & on about how good the food was. I was maybe 12/13 and during one of my moods, I would sit there thinking 'would he just shut up already, we know the food is good'. Yes I thought it, would never say it aloud because I wanted to keep my teeth. But each time we had macaroni & cheese he would say 'this is the best I've ever tasted'. I would think 'you said last week was the best you had'. But he knew she soaked it up and so gave her what he knew soothed her.

And -

My father was a good provider to her. He farmed and we had good food all the time. People would come from the neighborhood for corn, peas, tomatoes, etc. My mother would get on the phone telling people, 'yes, this may be his best crop of corn, or he brought me a 'mess' of peas to cook and they turned out to be real good'. Each spring she would say the same thing. She gave the praise right back to him.

Now I know for sure. It was something special they did.

Thanks, NNQueen for your insight. Like you say, 'if it is to be, then, it's up to me'. Can I tell my girls that? I'll make it our theme. It has been my attempt to encourage, and I am pleased to see that it has been received as such. And not tryin to lay blame on anybody. We are in this together and some are stronger than others.

And yes, Kemetstry. That's enough. And if I may take a bold step and make the following announcement on behalf of the sistahs: 'that's what we want'. (Now, sistahs don't get mad at me for 'speaking for you').

For, Kemetstry, when you recognize that all the things she does to cater to your needs, making you feel like a king, is because she cares so much for you and to inspire you to do and be a better man. And if you recognize that, you will love her for it, appreciate and be thankful for her and she will get the best of you. And so, your actions will/should mirror those feelings toward her. That's sweet. You will warm her spirit and she will try to think of more things to make you feel more kingly. And you will try to do more to show her how you feel. And...wow... I just can't imagine what may happen between the two of you! That's sweet. Yep, that's alright.

To grab on to what ZeroGravity said- not reciprocating, though and taking the 'special treatment' given as a green light to act any ole kind of way, would make for a strained & unhappy relationship.

Both my mother & father were spoiled, I guess. They spoiled each other, as they both got what they needed. Plus 13 children hahahahaha.

Thanks for indulging me in my reflection on the relationship my father & mother shared. Y'all been sweet.

Yep, when I was younger, I would say that I would never do certain things like my mother did.

But...I've been told that I want a replica of my father (the kind of man she had). And I too crave attention and find myself asking, 'how's your steak?' You know...like...fishing for compliments.

Bye

Zero...I'm starting to think that this thread beats paying for therapy! :D I agree with you completely. When you hear or see the word "spoiled", immediately we begin to think negatively. Something good has been changed to mean something bad and I wonder how or even why that happened? The scarier part is how people have become twisted because they no longer value in the act of spoiling or being spoiled. Sheesh!

You wrote:

"Spoiling" is nothing more than loving someone." Maybe that's the root to the problems that some people experience in their relationships...they don't know what real love is or what it feels like.

"If someone is good to us today... we get suspicious! They're up to something." Could the reason be because some people are in relationships where they are more frequently treated badly and their partners are dishonest and conniving?

"We have changed the perception of a "good" man or woman to a person that is boring. We have changed the perception of a person that is dependable to a person that is too predictable." Whenever you ask a person to explain what is a "good" man or woman, you never hear them say people who are abusive, liars, unfaithful, selfish or just plain stupid. None of those qualities are ever mentioned, yet so many people find themselves "hooked up" in relationships with people that have these qualities and they make excuses for staying.

It's true you can't tell who people are (usually) by the way they dress, or talk or often behave in public. We've all met some well-dressed, good smelling, attractive looking cretins. But if what we say we want are the men and women with the "good" qualities, then what happens when we meet them? What tells me is that people aren't being totally honest about who they are. People with dark spirits can't hide for long.

So much information is put out into the public arena by the media. Nothing is private or held sacred anymore. We're becoming a nation of voyeurs as we sit in front of our televisions for hours upon hours each day watching other people and how they act and interact. To a weak minded person, maybe what they take away are messages (or seeds) that have been planted in their minds about the way things are supposed to be. So, look at the kinds of programs being aired, look around you at the people you see and most likely you'll be able to tell which ones spend a lot of time sitting in front of tv.

Whatever comments I share here that you find helpful are yours to use! Your comments have certainly helped me and I'm much appreciative! :toast:

Thanks NNQueen. And I will tell them that a sistah friend shared it with us. I like to talk to my girls about positive things that people say & do, some times they get into their little moods and think that I am making stuff up. You know how kids can be sometimes.

And I also do it to remind them that positive people are everywhere, as some are going away for college soon.