COLUMNIST NOTE: The following column is on a very controversial subject. Keep your smelling salts handy. You can't say that you haven't been warned!

THE ASSUMPTION DILEMMA

Brothers, we are going to head for the tall grass on a topic that many have ‘blown by’ for the sake of being politically correct. That topic is Abortion. Of course, I’ll ‘cliff’ the historical background of the issue in a few lines, but let’s get to the aftermath of the matter as it affects men, manhood, and fatherhood.

Thanks to our American feminized culture, the assumption has been put forth that-- in the matter of an unplanned pregnancy--the man has no say in a ‘woman’s right to kill that unborn life’. As a matter of fact, this belief has become so ingrained in the social mainstream that many women have taken the ‘easy way out’ and ‘assumed’ that the father of the child doesn’t care, one way or the other, as to the mother of his child terminating a life that it took two people to create. The truly sad part is this assumption has made its way into the Black community, and into the Black church.

Now the one thing I can say in support of the women who have been brave enough to allow that life to continue. Yes, it has been rough. Yes, it has been a major trial and test of your belief in biblical teaching to allow that life to continue. Yes, you could have ended that life--to the applause of feminists, your friends and family.

But, you have remained true. And, for that, you get my respect and admiration.

We can chew on single parents all we want. At the bottom line, though, they have made the decision to be true and keep their children. I’d like to also add that some of them have gotten married, and had their husband treat ALL the kids as his!

Another group of women also get my respect and admiration. These are the single women who have given their children up for adoption. There are a LOT of married couples that cannot have children because of infertility. The gift of hope and life passed on by these sisters to families who can take care of the children is nothing short of heroic.

Might I also add that this is something that has been a part of our Black culture and heritage. The passing on of life, instead of terminating it because life is ‘too hard’.

Then, let’s not forget the extended family members. The grandmothers and grandfathers, the uncles and aunts, the foster parents and many others who have stepped in to help a young life along when everyone else seems to be stepping out of the picture.

They also get my respect and admiration.

However, there is something that many single women and single men remain blissfully ignorant of concerning abortion. This is what I am going to lay out in this month’s column.

A CLIFFED HISTORY LESSON ON ABORTION:

When Roe v. Wade came to the attention of the U.S. Supreme Court back in the 1970s, one of the assumptions was that abortion was needed to ‘solve’ the rising tide of pregnancies due to rape and incest. Well, thirty years have gone by, and a few interesting things have happened along the way:

1. One of the key participants in the case eventually became a Christian and admitted that she was ‘coerced’ by feminists (and others) to put her plight into the legal arena.

2. The statistical information has come back, showing in part that some 40 million abortions have taken place since that court decision became the law of the land, with nearly a third of those murders being those of Black babies.

3. More than EIGHTY percent of the abortions in this country have taken place because the mother of the child felt that the baby would ‘interfere’ with her life goals, while less than two percent of the abortions took place due to rape or incest.

4. More Black extended family members, including Black men, have stepped in to take care of the children forfeited by their mothers, rather than allow them to be killed in an abortion clinic.

5. More and more of those who took part in the abortion industry has stepped forward to testify about the horrors of the process, and how lying to potential patients is commonplace in such clinic settings.

6. Lastly, more and more doctors have put their foots down and said that they would no longer do the abortion procedure, as it was a solid breech of the Hippocratic oath.

Now, I’m not trying to ‘heap’ guilt upon those sisters who have had abortions. What I am striving for in this month’s column is to bring out the reality of the matter from a man’s point of view. And, there are a LOT of men who have something to say about this mass-murder industry. That is, if women would take the time to ask…and listen.

ASSUMPTION #1--BLACK MEN DON’T CARE ABOUT THE UNBORN:

This assumption is largely false, but has been given life because of the feminized nature of our current society. Many assume that Black men don’t care about the unborn, simply because they haven’t ‘heard’ us say anything in a ‘dramatic’ fashion. Still others assume that when a Black man gets the news that the woman he has been with announces: “I’m pregnant”, they are going to head for the door.

Well, to be perfectly honest and bold, many women ‘stack’ the news of an unplanned pregnancy and spin it in such a way that they secretly hope that the brothers DO run! Thus, they can continue the ‘mantra’ that ‘Black men are no good’, and head off to the nearest murder clinic to get the deed done.

I’ve heard from many a brother who has said, upon receiving such news: “Well, let’s get MARRIED!” This news causes the sister to back up and run the other direction, leaving the brother who thought he was doing the right thing, scratching his head in confusion.

Black men have ALWAYS been about sacrifice and provision. We can’t help it if some sisters can’t, or won’t, see this reality. I know brothers who HAVE popped the question, or suggested that they be allowed to serve in the role of father and husband after an unplanned pregnancy, only to have the woman in question listen to her ‘sistahfriends’ and drop kick the man--in order to maintain their ‘independence’.

Oh, I know this may be ‘new’ information for some who read my column, but trust me on this. My mail speaks for itself. I get letters from brothers all the time--some of them with tearstains on my screen--who want to be a father to their children after a divorce, or after an unplanned pregnancy, and they are the first to say: “She’s got my baby, and my money--and doesn’t want me around.”

ASSUMPTION #2--BLACK MEN DON’T CARE ABOUT CHILDREN:

If this were the case, why are so many Black men working two or three jobs AND serving as mentors and Big Brothers in many communities? Why are many brothers whom I talk to not only concerned about the direction of Black youth, but go out of their way to contribute time, money, and effort in order to teach and reach the young--at the same time they are taking care of their own children?

This is yet another ‘assumption’ that Black women--and others--make because they don’t take the time to COMMUNICATE with Black men. They ‘assume’ that Black men are not interested in the youth of our communities because they don’t ‘see’ Black men in front of cameras and microphones with press conferences and statistics to ‘prove’ that they are doing the job of fatherhood and serving as mentors to the next generation of young Black men and women.

Let me clue some of you: A Black man does NOT need a press conference to show that he is taking care of business! Things would be a LOT worse in the streets if we weren’t on the job!

Let me digress for just a few lines. During the last Super Bowl and World Series games, I saw Black and white men with their sons on the gridiron and the ball diamond being carried and hugged by these brothers in a time of celebration. Right in front of the cameras and reporters. Some of these sights made Page One of many a newspaper. But, I suppose that we have quickly forgotten these images.

Or, at least some wished that these images weren’t real.

ASSUMPTION #3--BLACK MEN CAN‘T RAISE CHILDREN:

Well, this is another ‘false’ assumption cooked up by feminists, and their allies in the feminized mainstream press, and been swallowed whole by some Black women. Might I remind those who can read that the U.S. Census Bureau came out with facts and figures a few years ago, highlighting that more than two million single parent homes are headed by MEN--and many of the by BLACK MEN?

Oh, I guess many sisters didn’t get the paper the day that report was released.

When Mama decides to ‘bail’, and brothers are left holding the diaper bag, a lot of them have stepped up to the plate and did the job to the best of their abilities. Often sacrificing job promotions and trips out of town for better employment to stay where they are and raise their children.

Like I said earlier: Black men are about sacrifice and taking care of business. Just because one brother may not be all that, it is not fair to paint ALL Black men with the same brush! Nor is it right for some sisters to shut the father of their child out of the decision to terminate a human life. Not only is that selfish, that shows the woman has no class, no matter how many poets she can quote, or how many social causes she may join.

ASSUMPTION #4--HIS NAME IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR MY CHILD:

Another assumption that has been floating around many a hospital ward is that the mother’s name is the name the child should carry. Sorry, but that won’t wash with me, and with many other Black men. By allowing society to dictate the name a child should carry, many Black men have been frozen out of the fatherhood and marriage process.

A child carrying the name of his/her mother does not have the same heritage as a child carrying the name of their father. Sister, if he was good enough to lie with, he is good enough to marry. You need to carry his name…and so do your children. Why go on national TV and try to remember whom the father was? You KNOW who the father was when the pregnancy took place!

WRAPPING THIS UP:

The real deal about Abortion is that it is a crime of convenience. Even though it is legal, and even though law supports it, it does NOT make it right. Remember, the same courts that have said that a woman has a ‘right’ to end her unborn child’s life are the SAME courts that said that Black folk were only three-fifths of a person, and that slavery was legal, and segregation was honorable.

Abortion has been proven to be the leading cause of breast cancer, sterility, and host of other physical problems among the women who have had this medical procedure done. Not to mention the emotional baggage that women often carry with them afterwards.

I never have ‘bought’ the notion that it takes two to procreate, and one to terminate. I have ‘bought’ the notion that some women, for one reason or another, have made up their minds as to what they are going to do and get mad with a brother because he won’t ‘sign off’ on the murder warrant known as abortion. If Black men are good enough to lay down with, sisters, why aren’t they good enough to marry?

Let me take this a little further for the sisters, if they didn’t hear me the first time around. If Black men are good enough to pay child support, and provide for the cost of raising a child, when a child is carried to full term, why are they NOT good enough to marry, sisters? Why are they NOT good enough to put their name on that child when he/she is born?

Yes, the images in the Rap videos and movies portray one thing concerning male/female relationships. However, I am addressing reality. And the reality is Black men are MORE than willing to be husbands and fathers. Provided that when a Black man speaks, folk are willing to listen.

I’ve read more than a few columns and articles from women who have had abortions. They are a combination of sorrow and anger. However, I have heard the pain from brothers who were told ‘after’ the fact that an abortion had taken place--without their consent. The mother in question based her assumption on the misguided notion that the man in question didn’t want to be a father and husband and she ‘did it for him’.

We may never know how many brothers have secretly visited cemeteries, praying to God for release from that pain. The pain of not having a voice in a choice that was made by two, but decided by one. But then, many who believe in abortion never think that far in advance, do they?

MIKE RAMEY is the author of THE MANHOOD LINE. A syndicated, monthly column written for men, from a biblical, business, and common sense perspective. Email welcome to manhoodline@yahoo.com. © 2003 Mike Ramey/Barnstorm Communications International (14).

This is a necessary topic to discuss in our community...It is also one we often push under the rug...

Thank you for this article!

here what we fact in fact men should have a more say in the role of a unborn as u said the two took part in forming this beautiful
life and where we in our community should become more aware
this topic is a grand stand
many as mother's to be has been forced into abortion forth so
young but i also study it somewhat and found that 73% of men
try to be a family bond and for the groweth of a child to a well
beings , not long ago where men seem not to care of the
decision now has movin into a higher love for the unborn
yes men now taking part more & more in decision made about
a life he so help created the seed of his own laid to bloom
has taken affect .......

personally all out against ABORTION !!!!!

now can we say that women who partake in this murder theme
of abortion killing life so new so precious is forgiven
not in the eyes of GOD
Behold he so giveth life spare life

without life given unto you our world would be of none
the higher courts need to refined the Law to kill at will
and be free of mind
ABORTION is a rule of less emotions taking place
where life is meanless to the carrier forth the womb
is curse

life is beautiful the study is true and real
but how long will it take for reality to set in ...?

thanks MIKE

yes so true Keme.......so many so young
babies having babies can't handle it
but again we have greater love one who can
just wont !
life given , life taken
study should look deeper into a better answer
for the life of a new born

man ........ it makes you wonder what if !!
such as if u was in the place of these little souls
hmmmm!!

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

In most cases I'm against. But I do realize that there are some that are not equipt for child rasing. Why have one from the first place?! If they are not equipt for rasing a child? :confused:

Engima: You've hit it out of the park! Good one!

Mike Ramey

so many not ready yet fall in a massive bliss and seed touch
yet not ready .....it's not that always they are equipt to carry
it out them self so where do you turn! ? who do you turn to ?
these are the lacking of many and that's where Abortions
now take place
young scared and somewhat confused
yet still against it...........who have da rites to kill...?

I was sitting here thinking of a lengthy reply, quoting statistics and refuting each point of the argument represented here but decided instead to speak from my heart.
Mr Ramsey, until you hop up on that operating table as I have you will never know what it's like. Do you think it's easy to wake up and decide one day to terminate the life growing inside you? Well, it's not. It is the hardest thing I ever had to do.
Do you think that each time I attend a baby shower or see a Mother cradling a newborn that my soul doesn't weep? Well, it does.
But ultimately I know that I've done the right thing. I'm not going to go into my reasoning because it's not for you to understand or accept them or me. But I will say, the Father of my unborn child was consulted and included and he was supportive from the time we lay down till this very minute.
I will also say this, no matter how well intentioned- the protestors outside of clinics with their posters of bloody, mutilated, fetuses and chants of "DON'T KILL YOUR BABY" are only throwing salt on a wound.
You say "I know of Brothers" who sacrifice and propose......... while making women seem as if we are some diabolical succubus who live to emotionally drain men by getting pregnant and exterminating their precious seed.
Here are some things I know--right about now there are more Brothers incarcerated than in college. They have a higher recitivism rate and also serve more time than Whites for the same crime.
Currently, the national divorce rate vascillates at between 55% to 60%--so these Brothers are proposing but are they STAYING married?
There are thousands of Black children languishing in foster care, or "up for adoption" so there is an ample supply just waiting for the childless couple--where are these prospective parents? Maybe leary to invest in a child whose "been in the system"? Afraid to gamble on a child whose Mother woefully ill-prepared but "being true" brought a child into this world as an afterthought on the bathroom floor?
Maybe these abortion providers who have "put their foot down and swore" to no longer perform abortion are not suffering from attacks of conscience but fear attacks from fanatics who committ murder by shooting Doctors and bombing clinics?
In a perfect world, abortions wouldn't be necessary but they are in this one. Yes, there are plenty of women who now speak out against their decision to terminate but there are millions more who still stand by our decision and we ALL carry emotional baggage from the experience. But one thing we all had in common was CHOICE-and now you are hearing from a woman who won't forget what she did but who will march and speak and shout if I have to to ensure that all women have that choice.

does not make it RIGHT!

Remember these FACTS:
*The US Supreme Court said...for a number of years...that BLACK folks did not have a right to be counted as a person.

*The US Supreme Court said...that separate but equal was alright.

First, dear poster, I am writing to MEN! If WOMEN get it, then it is an added blessing. It takes TWO to make a baby, unless you have forgotten basic human biology. How does ONE get the 'right' to murder an unborn child?

Why, from the US Supreme Court...the same ones whom I mentioned earlier.

You are free to believe what you want to believe. But, then so am I. And, you do have the duty to speak and comment. And, I have the right to reply.

Baby, you are WRONG!

There have been 43 million abortions in the USA since the 1973 decision, and about a third of them were BLACK babies. Even the Planned Parenthood folks, in their literature, are based upon a systematic and calculated plan to practice genocide on US! Read some of Margaret Sangers early papers on how to 'encourage' abortion in the Black community. Very interesting stuff.

And they were used by Adolph Hitler when he contimplated the 'Final Solution' that led to the slaughter of 20 million people including Africans.

Of course, there are two ways you can stop abortion in its tracks.

A woman keeps her skirt down...until she gets married.

A man keeps his pants zipped up...until he gets married.

BTW...have YOU thought about what would have happened if your parents decided to use their CHOICE and NOT have you?

Getting real quiet now, isn't it?

Bottom line...it takes two to create.

And, lest I forget...abortion has led to increases of breast cancer (documented), depression (documented), sterility among women (documented), promiscuity among men and women (documented).

You see what you want to see.

Mike Ramey

I have to put another view on it here. Personally at this point in my life, if a woman becomes pregnant by my sperm, I would encourage her to have the child and would do the best of my ability to raise the child. The type of women I deal with view it in the same manner.

However, I am pro-choice. I am tickled by how many pro-lifers that are pro death penalty and are too narrowminded to see how the issues of crime and abortion relate. The Judeo-Christian right creates an economically downtrotten society controlled by 20 percent haves that rob the remaining 80 percent have-nots deaf, dumb and blind which results in a society with the lowest healthcare of all western or "developed" nations (that blatantly ignores epidemics such as AIDS) and a KKKorporate infastructure that places a huge gap upon who makes what. The same Judeo-Christian right then, out of the same mouth that spits venom that favors KKKorporate welfare over the economic empowerment of citizens, attempts to force children to be born in a impoverished society that creates hate, death and destruction.

THere are countless stories of how many children grew up hated by their parents who would literately tell their kids that they hoped they would go off and die somewhere. Those types of mothers do not need to have children, and let's be realistic here... people are going to have sex. It is human nature. That is why we have hormones that produce sex drive. Especially in a contradictory society that demonizes it on one hand and then glorifies it in the other.

When I bring up this, people from the right retalliate usually with something to the likes of, "There is no statistical analysis supporting that child abuse is linked to abortion. Statistics show that most parents that abuse their children wanted to have their child." Being that I have a strong mathematics background along with a sense of the real world, I know better. Being that there are many ways to define child abuse, the denial of the abuser in abusing the children and the hypocritical sense of christ in this country that often makes people think that they aborting a child is unchristlike but beating the crap out of a child for asking for water, making the child elicit oral sex (while the parent is drunk), burning the child with an iron, and other horrible things are not... I know that you cannot "statistically" disprove that which is just no more than deducive logic. The ultimate expression of wanting a child is to raise it the best way you can (and your best may be different at times).

Then when these children grow up with hate, join gangs and go around killing people you stick them in a locked room to sample the latest Cyanide fragrance, strap them to a chair and fry them like Churches chicken or give them a Grim Reaper shot. Wheras all of this could have been prevented by just letting a problem solve itself. That is just the reality of the situation.



By the way, most abortions are done by whites and asians and the stereotypes associated with black men and parenthood is the result of babydaddyism, not abortion.



GCB

and see some new faces and new talent posted in the columnists slots. Welcome Gary! I'll have to stop by and read some of your stuff. Welcome to the front lines, son...cause in Destee's Place, this is where it is happening.

Now, of course, we are going to agree to disagree on this issue...but, I notice that you are interested in science and technology. Like I said, I'll have to drop by and read up on some of your stuff.

But I have noticed through history that many of the Nobel Prize winners were not only those of solid religious foundation...in either the Hebrew or Christian faith, but were solidly Pro-Life in their views. Many, many, many men and women of science are also Pro-Life today. Also, so are many Democrats.

To each his own...but there is going to be a payday someday...and I trust that you will enjoy life each day...because science can't do two things....

Tell one exactly when a heart starts....and tell one exactly when a heart will stop.

Mike Ramey

PS: BTW...if a woman DOES become pregnant by your sperm, I would hope that you would have enough sense to have married her before unwrapping the package? Know what I mean?

Thanks for your warm welcome Bro. Mike. I think there are a few things I should say before continuing.

"But I have noticed through history that many of the Nobel Prize winners were not only those of solid religious foundation...in either the Hebrew or Christian faith, but were solidly Pro-Life in their views. Many, many, many men and women of science are also Pro-Life today. Also, so are many Democrats"

Communication and paradigms in the status quo can be very powerful. The definition of science that I go by is far more broad than the stereotype of geeks and goggles pushed by mainstream society. To me, anyone with a system of analysis and lives their lives based on their worldview is a scoentist, for life is one big experiment where we all learn by trial and error. So I do not seperate science and religion as classicism does.

And yes, I do value marriage and family. :) It's sad that people look at marriage as a death sentence and not as a systematic building block to having a strong family. But it is that worldview that deteriorated our society to this point. To be pro-life in a society that profits from death is illogical to me.

I do hope that this discussion will re-ignite... it's an often talked about subject, but it's principles remain untouched.


GCB

this was a great point of view brutha Gary.....

whew!

i seriously thought about abortion. Went to have one but it didn't turn out as i had planned. now, i have two beautiful childen to love and care for.

i guess some person would say that i have learned my lesson but i haven't. currently, i'm not having sex. and i haven't had sex since before my son was born. almost four years ago. (basically i have so much going on and in my life that sex isn't a focus right now) but, if i were to get pregnant right now i'd probably have a abortion.

for experience i've learned that i am in this alone. i have two children to provide for and no emotional or physical support.
i would sit down and think about my children, that are already here, and make the dicission. without consulting the father. i know that sounds trife but i really don't care. but what's even more trife is that if i decided to have the child i seriously doubt if i would tell him, even then.

abortion is a personal choice. a choice you sit down and make within yourself.

i can't that decision for a another woman. and she can't make it for me.

this be true but inside that choice ......remember how u made
it to life and how u came to love those two sweet children
and how this would be like self murder , know that a life
is taken by the hands of man or woman one whom form such
should also know they too would not be if this was so right
their life could not been to kill another life these are not just
things nor are they made of mix emotions but human life

who has da rite to kill
thou shall not kill is what i was raised on .....
truely so many single Mothers left alone to this struggle
and labor all the pains but flip the coin and it's so beautiful
men should be more aware of the beauty from da womb of
woman
yes the choice is set for ever each one but also the love
is given , placed within and it's LIFE.....

On one hand I am against abortion but on the other I'm not. There is so many people that can't physically have children that have so much love to give, why not put your child up for adoption, but at the same time adoption can be worst than abortion. I've seen it first hand. there is also situationsthat can't be helped. Like being raped, molested, mentally ill etc. Why bring a child into situations like that. I understand every child have a right to be born but would it really be fair to that child to be born sick and in pain, homeless, abused, some people see abortion as an escape not just for them selves but for thier child as well. Yes one shouldn't engage in any type of activity that could warrant a child but things happen. Condoms break. I personally don't know what I would do if I became pregnant right now. The first thing that come to my mind is single father. My mother told my brother's girls bring babies home from the hospital not boys. But I told my brothers, If a girl decided not to take the baby home some one would and they would never see their child again. That's how I look at it. My child will have a safe and loving home but just not with me. I say that now but I know feelings and emotional binds are made when a female is pregnant so I guess I won't know until it happen. But I practice abstance, so I know there is no possibilty I will be birthing anything until I'm ready.

Poetic Sista

me, personally i dont agree with abortion. i reckon that even if i were raped or sumthin, i wud still keep the child. i believe that abortion is totally wrong but then again that's just my opinion.

I think people can abort if they want too. You can save a kid alot of headache and stress of this world, especially if you cannot afford the kid. Sometimes abortion is good for people who are not ready for responsbility, and better for the kid not to show up, than to go into state custody and become a throwaway kid.

For example, my mom was upset with me when I was a teen or something and she was going on and on about how much I cause her pain, and I was like, you should have aborted me and saved yourself all that pain. I did not ask to come here. Of course she was upset, but I think the aformentioned scenario can be avoided with abortion.

JMO (Copyright Toylin)

As a personal decision abortion is not an option for me. Now what anybody else does is there business, and who am I to judge. But there are some instances that abortion would not have been a bad thing, with all the crazy things you hear about people doing to children on the news. i think that it is just ones personal decision. i feel that yes, the father should have a say so in the situation, but the final decision should be the mothers.

Good post phenom.

I guess it's easy to say it's wrong and then the other side to say it's right but the truth it's up to the parent or better yet the "parents" who have to bring this child into the world. Don't try to sell me the not enough money line in my eyes because how can you put a price tag on a new life? Sickness, Well let's just say this now! If you know you have a illness that will have a direct affect on your child then get "FIXED" and end the possible situation and then do the childern in this world who have been dealt the foster home situation a good home. Rape is a whole case in itself and I dont think any woman who was raped shoul be forced to have this chld so in this case i do believe in abortion. Rember the life you end because "YOU" were not being responsible is a price youe soul will pay when you meet the creator. This feeling I have does not make me right it's just makes me real with what i feel.

Their is a price on life. Kids cost money playa. I do not know what world you live in, but kids are not free.

Their is a price on life. Kids cost money playa. I do not know what world you live in, but kids are not free.

I live in a world called reality where I have children so i can speak on this right here! I know how much it cost and what is given up in order to keep a child. But if you are going to open your legs or open another's legs then you should be ready to take care of the responsibility that comes from this! If you Man enough tp Tap that *** then be man enough to raise that child if you meke one!If your Woman enough to take it then be woman enough to raise it! We are not talking about throwing away a bad TV or even who's wrong or right it's about The Right To Live! Everyone has a Right to live even a unborn child who didn't ask you to make them but im sure they would ask to stay alive!

I have alwayz felt this to be wrong ! to me it's cold blooded RED RUM!
we as men should have a voice in any abortion discussion but also know
theirs a life a human a child from this seed planted the cost of life is high
but willingly and freely should also be aware to be a man and take on the
rest of this pleasure from laying down or entering a woman secret garden
i'm not with abortions and never will do bare child if you seeded not every
one can raise this child but surely has the rights to live . it RED RUM !
in cold blood .

Python:

This is not an issue on being paternal this is simply a womans right to choose. And if she chooses to abort the kid that is her buisness. Like I said in the previous post, it would have been fine by me to be aborted, I did not ask to come here.

it's RED RUM none of us ask to come here but we all was born and should
have a right to live a chance at life , it should be both parents rights to have
a voice in this matter not so much all on the female , very aware it's her body
but once lay all knew the facts of what can be or will happen if women feel
the need to take this route then they should make sure to be protected
use protection and seal the fate of child birth not go through the pleasure
and bare seed to kill it like it's waste ........i can't live knowing a seed of mine
was killed it cold blooded REDRUM

Python:

This is not an issue on being paternal this is simply a womans right to choose. And if she chooses to abort the kid that is her buisness. Like I said in the previous post, it would have been fine by me to be aborted, I did not ask to come here.


I know you didn't ask my brother and I do understand that but your here now! Now that it's your choice to be here do you want to die? I agree it's freedom of choice and I try to respect this as much as possible no matter what my personal views are or religious beliefs. It just seem like people do it to easly theese days and without consideration to anything or anyone but themselves. REDROOM = MURDER and the law says to take a life is murder except in war and abortion? I have done more than my fair share of dirt and I will have to face that when my time comes but the Lawyers, the judges and the people dont make the real laws only GOD does! :teach:

It can be murder or whatever you want to be. But since you cats are all passing judgements let me lave you two with something:

He has no sin let him cast the first stone.

I am pretty sure you guys cannot cast any stones.

man If i tried to cast a stone a BOLDER would smack me right dead in the mouth! LOL
I'm just expressing my "Opinion" nothing more nothing less because in the end everyone else will do what they want to do.

it's MUDER ......REDRUM but i'm not to judge nor pass stones
just leaving my opinion on the table of what i feel it is .......
the mark of death is to take a life before given it a chance to live
men has really never had much say in this but we should !

Black men certainly aren't monolithic and we each have our own opinions.


But unlike most black men I've met...not only do I support a woman's right to choose...but I also ENCOURAGE abortion under certain curcimstances.

If the baby is likely to come our retarded, deformed, or may serioiusly injury the mother if she gives birth...then she should abort the fetus.


Also, single women who become pregnant but have no means of supporting that child should either get an abortion or put that child up for adoption.



It's not a question of whether or not you're taking a life...ofcourse it's a life.
When you kill a bug or chop down a tree you're also taking a life.

But the question is....Does that fetus have a soul yet?

At what point does if transform from just a living organism to an actually human being?


Unlike animals, we must reason and make the best decisions for not only ourselves but our children and thier future.

Animals just shoot out babies without a concern of whether or not they will be provided for, they can't give themselves abortions.

We as intelligent civilized creatures must weigh the option of either aborting a fetus, or allowing him to be born facing a life time of pain, poverty, or debilitation where he wish he were dead a million times over.

Black men certainly aren't monolithic and we each have our own opinions.


But unlike most black men I've met...not only do I support a woman's right to choose...but I also ENCOURAGE abortion under certain curcimstances.

If the baby is likely to come our retarded, deformed, or may serioiusly injury the mother if she gives birth...then she should abort the fetus.


Also, single women who become pregnant but have no means of supporting that child should either get an abortion or put that child up for adoption.



It's not a question of whether or not you're taking a life...ofcourse it's a life.
When you kill a bug or chop down a tree you're also taking a life.

But the question is....Does that fetus have a soul yet?

At what point does if transform from just a living organism to an actually human being?


Unlike animals, we must reason and make the best decisions for not only ourselves but our children and thier future.

Animals just shoot out babies without a concern of whether or not they will be provided for, they can't give themselves abortions.

We as intelligent civilized creatures must weigh the option of either aborting a fetus, or allowing him to be born facing a life time of pain, poverty, or debilitation where he wish he were dead a million times over.


Not that I disagree with your view, but your stance seems to be different from others who define themselves as being religious. Or, is Islam not as strict on this issue as Christianity?

you all need to go to... http:// www.blackgenocide.org

i believe that choice should be available for the woman to make.

Karm

Not that I disagree with your view, but your stance seems to be different from others who define themselves as being religious. Or, is Islam not as strict on this issue as Christianity?


Most Muslims see abortion as murder and won't even debate about it, but usually I let my concience and logic be my guide.

In some cases abortion is the only responsible option.

I think women should have the choice available to them.

I agree, women should be able to choose whether they want a child or not. If a single woman can not take care of a child then she needs to get an abortion or put the child up for adoption. It's also a man's responsibility to make sure that he does his part financially and as far as investing time in the child, but too many women choose to have children, when they themselves cannot hold up their end. A woman's responsibility doesn't end with popping out a baby. Then looking to the father to take responsibility for 100% financially.

Also, women that are raped shouldn't feel compelled to keep the child or her rapist. That's sick.

If the child will be deformed or retarded, a woman should have the option of abortion. Not only is rasing a deformed or retarded child hard, but it's also expensive. My opinion is that women just shouldn't feel like they are stuck with a pregnancy just because others don't agree with their decision. Those people aren't the ones that are going to struggle to provide for that child, so who cares what they think.

Kente

Also, women that are raped shouldn't feel compelled to keep the child or her rapist. That's sick.
Oh, I forgot about rape and incest.....

Those are the main reasons why the option to abort should remain available.

How can a child grow up positively knowing that not only wasn't he wanted by his own mother, but he was brought into this world in the spirit of hate and violence instead of love?

It is ultimately a woman's decision, yes, but the opinion of her child's father should be a factor when she makes her decision.

Kente

Also, women that are raped shouldn't feel compelled to keep the child or her rapist. That's sick.
Oh, I forgot about rape and incest.....

Those are the main reasons why the option to abort should remain available.

How can a child grow up positively knowing that not only wasn't he wanted by his own mother, but he was brought into this world in the spirit of hate and violence instead of love?


Donnie Mcclurkin was a product of rape...and you see how beautiful of a man he became.

Abortion would not be an issue if we would stop having pre-marital. This would take care of about 75% of unwanted pregnancies. We also need to police ourselves. Know that family member that we are entrusting our daughters with. Give no males outside of the family the benefit of the doubt. Keep people honest. Safe guard our women and help our brothers that may have a problem controlling their sexual urges.


Peace...

Nisa

Donnie Mcclurkin was a product of rape...and you see how beautiful of a man he became.

Donnie McClurkin????

Wasn't he one of the Backstreet Boys?

Abortion would not be an issue if we would stop having pre-marital. This would take care of about 75% of unwanted pregnancies. We also need to police ourselves. Know that family member that we are entrusting our daughters with. Give no males outside of the family the benefit of the doubt. Keep people honest. Safe guard our women and help our brothers that may have a problem controlling their sexual urges.


Peace...

That would definately cut back on unwanted pregnancies, but it's not realistic. Men and women have and will continue to have premarital sex. Especially since everyone doesn't believe in marriage in the first place. It's natural for men and women to have sex. A piece of paper doesn't dictate someone's sexual urges. Women need the option because bringing babies into the world that you can't take care of (financially or emotionally) and aren't willing to give up only makes things worse. Having the option doesn't mean everyone will exercise it, but it should be there for those that will. It shouldn't matter to people who are against abortion because they'll never get one either way, but why do they always try and force their views on everyone else?

That would definately cut back on unwanted pregnancies, but it's not realistic. Men and women have and will continue to have premarital sex. Especially since everyone doesn't believe in marriage in the first place. It's natural for men and women to have sex. A piece of paper doesn't dictate someone's sexual urges. Women need the option because bringing babies into the world that you can't take care of (financially or emotionally) and aren't willing to give up only makes things worse. Having the option doesn't mean everyone will exercise it, but it should be there for those that will. It shouldn't matter to people who are against abortion because they'll never get one either way, but why do they always try and force their views on everyone else?


Reality is what we make it. What does it say for a people that have come to the realization that they can not commit to one person because they have no control over their sexual desires? Sure sex is natural and having babies is natural but you know what else, fathers abandoning their children is natural too. It's natural in the animal kindom. Are we nothing more than stray dogs and cats? Thats what the male dog and cat does, impregnate several females and leave them to raise and care for their young while he finds more females to impregnate. It is also natural to be monogamous and have one partner til death do you part. Swans, geese and birds of prey do it. Marriage by the way is more than a peice of paper. Marriage defines the relationship between man and woman. When a man marries his woman he is essentially telling her that I don't want any other women but you. I want us to be together until one of us dies. I want to share everything in my life with you. You and I together are one. I will prove this to you in front of God, the world and the law of the land. I make this promise to you and if I don't keep it you have legal recourse. This says a whole lot. Sure a man can tell his woman these things without a marriage certificate but there is more at stake and more meaning when you are willing to put your livelihood on the line. In a good marriage when a man proves his intentions are serious then the woman has no choice but to respect his decision and authority. Problem is we marry the wrong to people for the wrong reasons therefore many unmarried people see this and become discouraged and turned off by the marriage experience. We then play house and do everything married people do except there's always a loop hole or an escape clause. This is our reality and abortion is an option to cover our playing around and this is why we can't stop the bleeding or fix our social dilemmas. See women follow a man's lead. We can promise them the moon and the stars and take it all back and leave them holding the bag. No woman that I know wants to abort a child. This should not be something that even comes into play unless there is the likeihood of a women losing her life if the pregnancy goes to term. Black women don't profit from abortion nor do black men. This is another way we are being controlled by the insideous enemy. "Hey keep have pre-maritial unprotected sex. If she gets pregnate or if she's unsure she can take the morning after pill." Keep having sex and never establish any lasting relationships. This is what the enemy is saying and we are falling for it. Again I say abortion wouldn't be an issue if we would properly handle our business.


Peace

Reality is what we make it. What does it say for a people that have come to the realization that they can not commit to one person because they have no control over their sexual desires? Sure sex is natural and having babies is natural but you know what else, fathers abandoning their children is natural too. It's natural in the animal kindom. Are we nothing more than stray dogs and cats? Thats what the male dog and cat does, impregnate several females and leave them to raise and care for their young while he finds more females to impregnate. It is also natural to be monogamous and have one partner til death do you part. Swans, geese and birds of prey do it. Marriage by the way is more than a peice of paper. Marriage defines the relationship between man and woman. When a man marries his woman he is essentially telling her that I don't want any other women but you. I want us to be together until one of us dies. I want to share everything in my life with you. You and I together are one. I will prove this to you in front of God, the world and the law of the land. I make this promise to you and if I don't keep it you have legal recourse. This says a whole lot. Sure a man can tell his woman these things without a marriage certificate but there is more at stake and more meaning when you are willing to put your livelihood on the line. In a good marriage when a man proves his intentions are serious then the woman has no choice but to respect his decision and authority. Problem is we marry the wrong to people for the wrong reasons therefore many unmarried people see this and become discouraged and turned off by the marriage experience. We then play house and do everything married people do except there's always a loop hole or an escape clause. This is our reality and abortion is an option to cover our playing around and this is why we can't stop the bleeding or fix our social dilemmas. See women follow a man's lead. We can promise them the moon and the stars and take it all back and leave them holding the bag. No woman that I know wants to abort a child. This should not be something that even comes into play unless there is the likeihood of a women losing her life if the pregnancy goes to term. Black women don't profit from abortion nor do black men. This is another way we are being controlled by the insideous enemy. "Hey keep have pre-maritial unprotected sex. If she gets pregnate or if she's unsure she can take the morning after pill." Keep having sex and never establish any lasting relationships. This is what the enemy is saying and we are falling for it. Again I say abortion wouldn't be an issue if we would properly handle our business.Peace


Well, just because I said people will continue to have premarital sex, doesn't mean that's an excuse to abandon their kids. Men abandon their kids whether they have them through premarital sex or marriage. That means nothing. Women that are married get abortions too. It's not just single women that are having sex randomly, like so many people want to believe. Plus, there are many women that want to abort a child if they get pregnant. It's not always prompted by men. Men don't always pressure women into abortions. Believe me, there are many women that will abort a baby because they need to continue going to the club and smoking weed. Don't be fooled man. This benefits women as much as it benefits men. There are many cases where men actaully want the kid, but the woman doesn't want to be tied down, so she aborts the child...if she tells him she's pregnant at all.

I know this is not a marriage thread, but you just proved everything that I have ever said about marriage. It's all about piece of mind for a woman. That piece of paper validates what should be in your heart if you truly love someone. What kind of relationship is only valid only if a man puts his livelihood on the line? So nothing matters unless a man signs his name and gives a woman power to screw you if you (or even she) mess up? Doesn't sound too appealing to me.

I will agree, abortion is an option that is in place because people are not responsible. What does that mean. If abortion isn't there, do you really think people will stop having unprotected, premarital sex? Nope. It will stay the same, except now we'll have more unwanted kids running around because women don't have any way of dealing with it. There are people that don't believe in abortion, still having premarital sex and keeping the kids that they can't even raise, and don't want to raise. So they mistreat the kids and neglect them. Guess that's better huh? Abortion would not be an issue if we handled our business...that's true, but neither would a lot of things. If we handled our business on many levels, many things wouldn't be happening to us. None of us would be in jail, none would be on drugs, none would be unemployed. Like I said, it's not realistic.

I agree with Kente. The waiting until marriage philosophy worked better during eras where people married as soon as puberty hit, but for today's time, at least in Western cultures, it doesn't. The sex drive is a powerful force for both men and women... it's very difficult to suppress. If a person chooses abstinance I applaud them, but for everyone else my message is use contraception.

I think that in today's time it is unrealistic to expect everyone to wait before marriage to have sex. However I don't think it is unrealistic to expect people to wait until marriage before they have children. The reality of many families is that a man's financial & emotional support of his children is largely based upon his feelings towards the child's mother. Personally I don't agree with this (I feel that a man should provide for all his children), but this is the day to day reality that I've personally observed. Therefore the best way to provide children the best environment for their upbringing (to best ensure the involvement of both biological parents), remains having children in wedlock.

Therefore the best way to provide children the best environment for their upbringing (to best ensure the involvement of both biological parents), remains having children in wedlock.

I see what you're saying panafrica. The thing is, in todays society, even having children in wedlock would still leave a lot of those children without a father in the household, since the failure rate of marriages is so high. My point is, people speak of marriage as if it's going to make every decision after that, a good one. Either way, there are always going to be fatherless children, unwanted pregnancies in marriages and abortions. I don't think it's as important to be married before having children, I think it's more important to take precautions against pregnancies until you find someone that you want to build a life with...married or not.

I don't think it's as important to be married before having children, I think it's more important to take precautions against pregnancies until you find someone that you want to build a life with...married or not.

Either way we need to place greater thought on whom we have children with....and use protection in the meantime!

Either way we need to place greater thought on whom we have children with....and use protection in the meantime!


Very true brotha, that's the most important part.:number1:

Nisa

Donnie Mcclurkin was a product of rape...and you see how beautiful of a man he became.

Donnie McClurkin????

Wasn't he one of the Backstreet Boys?


Not funny at all..if you dont know who he is..look him up smh

Well, just because I said people will continue to have premarital sex, doesn't mean that's an excuse to abandon their kids. Men abandon their kids whether they have them through premarital sex or marriage. That means nothing. Women that are married get abortions too. It's not just single women that are having sex randomly, like so many people want to believe. Plus, there are many women that want to abort a child if they get pregnant. It's not always prompted by men. Men don't always pressure women into abortions. Believe me, there are many women that will abort a baby because they need to continue going to the club and smoking weed. Don't be fooled man. This benefits women as much as it benefits men. There are many cases where men actaully want the kid, but the woman doesn't want to be tied down, so she aborts the child...if she tells him she's pregnant at all.

I know this is not a marriage thread, but you just proved everything that I have ever said about marriage. It's all about piece of mind for a woman. That piece of paper validates what should be in your heart if you truly love someone. What kind of relationship is only valid only if a man puts his livelihood on the line? So nothing matters unless a man signs his name and gives a woman power to screw you if you (or even she) mess up? Doesn't sound too appealing to me.

I will agree, abortion is an option that is in place because people are not responsible. What does that mean. If abortion isn't there, do you really think people will stop having unprotected, premarital sex? Nope. It will stay the same, except now we'll have more unwanted kids running around because women don't have any way of dealing with it. There are people that don't believe in abortion, still having premarital sex and keeping the kids that they can't even raise, and don't want to raise. So they mistreat the kids and neglect them. Guess that's better huh? Abortion would not be an issue if we handled our business...that's true, but neither would a lot of things. If we handled our business on many levels, many things wouldn't be happening to us. None of us would be in jail, none would be on drugs, none would be unemployed. Like I said, it's not realistic.



Like I said reality is what we make it. Someone a long time ago went on a campaigne to redefine sex and the interaction between men and women. Because in our society there is this idea that people can share sex without love or commitment, people get careless and abortions happen. I will start a different thread on marriage. There's just to much to go into and this thread is about abortion. I'm not fooled I know there are women out there that want to get their club, drink and smoke on. Still abortion is not an advantage to anyone. Abortion basically is an option so people can continue to live frivelously without moral conscience. It's a quick fix solution in the promotion of moral decay. Think about if abortion was physically impossible, that would motivate "many not all" to re-evalute their behavior and habits when it come to sex. See the vast majority of people can't accept the idea or concept of save yourself for marriage. Many "especially men" say, "Why should I be deprived of the sexual experience? It's not fair that I wait of until marriage before having sex. Then what if the sex is no good? I'll be stuck with someone who can satisfy me sexual." Here is the real truth about sex. Sex is more of a mental thing than a physical thing. Meaning to each his own. Your mind is what tells your senses what is attractive and what's not. Still when we let our sexually desires take over we are asking for trouble. As a young man I often sought a pure sexual relationship with no strings attached. I wished I could have multiple sex buddies (of the opposite sex) where we could had the understanding that when necessary we would just get our rocks off when need be. Well I had the multiple sex partners down by the "no strings attached" thing never quite worked out. That because sex is and will always be more than just getting your rock off. I learned these lessons the hard way. This is why I can say these things because I was guilty of this same behavior. Never had a child aborted (that I know of) but I have a child out of wedlock. There were many years of pain and anguish endured because of that. I'm not saying I regret my sons birth and life, I'm saying I had a child with the wrong woman. I'm glad she didn't get a abortion though. I raise my son and he is the gift in my life that has made me a better man. I'm teaching my son about the dangers of irresponsible sex. I'm instilling moral values in him not only by my words but by observation of others and my example. He has never seen me reckless or cheating on my wife. Hopefully these values carry on into his adulthood and he will never come to me telling about how he got some girl pregnant. And hopeful he can passed these values on to his children. This is how we change reality into the reality we want. So maybe my values are unrealistic in this time and day but not impossible. We control realism if we so choose.


Peace....

Abortion is the new holocaust