Hello Everyone,

I saw in another thread, Black Male Shortage - Myth or Reality? (http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12213), where a Sister said ... "Sisters better take notice...there will be more women looking at the Black man...namely the latino women."This comment made me wonder ...

If a Black Brother or Sister is with a Latino Brother or Sister ...
aren't they still with an "African?"

In general, do Latinos consider themselves Africans?

In general, do Blacks consider Latinos Africans?

Are Latinos Africans too?

:heart:

Destee

I think that latinos are heavily discriminated against just like
we are-therefore, they consider themselves to be able to
relate to our culture in that they are oppressed in many ways
themselves. However, ethnically or culturally speaking

I think not :0)

one

pd

Hello my fellow Panafricanist!! Destee this forum is a great idea, and you deserve much credit for starting it.

To answer the question. There are "Black" Latinos, "White" Latinos, and "Mulatto" Latinos. Latinos are generally made up of the same racial background as Americans. South America and the Caribbean (containing the Hispanic countries Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Dominician Republic) has the same basic racial makeup as the U.S., with African slavery and the mixing of Europeans and Indians or Native Americans. A major difference in the two different cultures was the extent to which this "mixing" took place. Although race mixing is evident in the U.S. (with the high number of light skinned blacks in the country). Race mixing in South America was so ingrained in the society that the majority of the people are now what we would deem as mulattoes.

However in many countries there are Hispanics who are clearly black (having such a large percentage of African blood, that their skin is dark brown & their hair is course). As Panthaxx already pointed out, most of those Latinos who are "black" classify themselves as Hispanic. However I think this is a social-political strategy. From what I've observed, Hispanics suffer from an identity crisis. Most will tell you that race is classified differently in their countries. However being married to a African Spaniard, and knowing a handful of "black" Latinos that correctly classify themselves as black, I know that this isn't really true.

Hispanics are coming to this country to make a better life for themselves (to escape poverty & persecution in their homelands). In America blacks (despite the civil rights movement) continue to occupy the bottom of the social-economic system. If Afro-Latinos come to this county & identify themselves as black, then they would inherit the economic & social discrimination that we face. Since they are fleeing from poverty they don't want to face economic discrimination here. Therefore they disassociate themselves from blacks: "My skin might be dark, but I'm not black. I'm Cuban, Mexican, Dominican, etc."

Despite this trend, I still consider black Latinos part of the African Diaspora. I wouldn't be a true Panafricanist if I didn't. However it is important for them to recognize their blackness if we are to consider them allies in the struggle. Until they do, we are mistaken to expect their support.

indeed they are the answers is YES....

Latinos considering themselves other than African is evidence of the pervasiveness of rascism and white supremacy.

I''m in line with PanAfrica, both Latino and Hispanic are genaral terms. AfricanLatinos are few in numbers, they need to identify themselfs that way. if not then they are then just Latinos of African decent.. This of cause is more complexe than meets the eye.

Originally posted by Monetary
Latinos considering themselves other than African is evidence of the pervasiveness of rascism and white supremacy.

perhaps us considering them african is nothing more than arrogance.

we are family. but we are not the same. latinos are native americans. their culture is rich and complete. they are not african. we have met before. we have built empires on their soil. but we are not them. they are not us.

research bears this fact. "they came before colombus" wasnt about saying we were here first. just that we were here before slavery.

Welcome Ifasehun, and thank you for posting on the boards!

Now that the formalities are out of the way, I have to disagree with your statement that Latinos are "Native Americans". It is true that Latinos are mixed with "Native Americans", just as they are mixed with African and Spanish blood. However many African Americans also have "Native American" blood. Therefore, Latinos can not be anymore "Native American" than African-Americans. Also the culture of African Americans is rich and complete.

I see there is a need to clarify my point...and make a few others.

In reference to your "arrogance" comment, I only called Latinos African because of the same logic as Kemetsry; not because I'm arrogant. All humans come from Africans, hence all humans are Africans. However, looking at it that way would make the question moot.

To dig a little deeper, the comment I made about the pervasiveness of racism and white supremacy stems from the "light skin" vs "dark skin" mental condition that is prevalent around the world. This mental condition...in my opinion...has widespread ramifications because of racism or white supremacy.

So, those who can pass for white...no matter what their true background is...will claim that status by referring to themselves as whatever-American. Prime example...people from Mexico in the US. People from Mexico who claim their heritage and background who live in the US consider themselves Mexicans. Those who want to get a better life and indirectly disclaim their culture consider themselves Mexican Americans. African Americans...hmmmm...food for thought.

Like Mexico, I am under the impression that most countries exhibit discrimination because of color.

So, that was my logic for considering Latinos African.

I left myself open...let's see who will notice. :lol:

African Americans and Latin Americans have African,Black,and Euopean blood in thier veins.The only difference is that the Latin American's slave master spoke a different language.

From the little that I know . . .

Hispanic . . . spanish speaking countries, including those in Europe - - This is the broader category.

Latino . . . population from Latin American countries where spanish is spoken as the first language, regardless of race.

Hispanic/Latino is a category used in data reports for census records. Under the new guidelines for agency reporting, it's the FIRST question asked.

Race is a category used in data collection for census records. It refers to all others not of spanish culture or descent. It is the SECOND question asked in census reports.

Regardless of racial category, including mult-racial background, a person that self-identifies as an Hispanic/Latino will be counted as such regardless of whether they are White or Black.

(Politically progressive Mexicans prefer to be called Chicanos to distinguish themselves among all other Latinos. As you probably know, there are different political views among these groups and many do not like being "lumped" together)

People from non-spanish speaking backgrounds will be counted by how they self-identify as a part of a "race" category...White, Black, Asian, American Indian.

Are Latinos Africans? In a broad sense yes and Monetary pointed out. However, imo, the ones that are African are those that are direct descendants of African slaves that were transported to the Caribbean islands during the slave trade. So I don't consider all Latinos or Hispanics as being of African descent.

i would tend to agree with queen moreso.

but i want to make sure the point doesnt get lost:

this is NATIVE AMERICAN SOIL. from canada to s. america. if you are indigenous to this place you are a native american. the other designations speak more to who you were a victim of when europeans arrived in americas than anything else. or what country you call home. but all in all, they are native americans, not africans. if i married a cherokee woman (which would be impossible, because i am already married, but this is an anology. lol) and we had a child and that child married a black person and all the offspring thereafter - the child is african with cherokee roots. not cherokee.

we must be careful to denote who we sympathize with politically and who were are by ethnicity. the two are not always the same.

ifasehun, I am confused by your perspective and the analogy you use to support your opinion.

Let me ask a question and see if you can help me understand your point better.

Is it your position that Native Americans and Mexicans are indigenous people and therefore cannot be Africans because people from Africa were brought to the Americas when they were already here?

If this is your position, it would only apply to one Hispanic population, that being Mexicans. What about all the OTHER Latino groups from South American countries that are here in the U.S. or maybe even still living in their native countries?

I think we need to be clear as to how Hispanic/Latino terms are defined which is why I posted the definitions. It applies to more than Mexicans which I agree, is an indigenous (American) population.

my point is that an indigenous people are native american. hispanic and latino are partially artificial terms created to describe relationships between indigenous indians and white people.

latinos is short for latin, no? so its an eurocentric reference point. but whats important for this conversation to note is this: although all humans come from african genes originally, its doesnt make them "one of us." time, evolution and culture help create difference and diversity. just because a person has suffered racism at the hands of europeans doesnt make them african either. which is what a few other posts seem to be trying to do.

we came here prior to slavery - yes. did we found native america? well, yes and no. we were a part of the immigration of people that melted into one and created what we call native americans.

what are native americans composed of?
(1)mongolian asians. (a migrating group that also helped form the alaskan populace)
(2)africans, speficially a group that scientists and historians call "dimunitive blacks" (because they were shorter than most africans.)
(3)a smaller portion of early european that probably didnt look too close to what we call being white today, but are related nonetheless.

after many many years - these three bodies became one and created a discinctive culture and identity - native america.

so the answer is : no, hispanics and latinos are not africans.

i rushed to type, but i hope my position is much clearer now.
(3)

I challenge that Mexicans or any other Latino group are indigenous people to begin with. As knowing a good deal about their history, I know they are mixed with Spanish, "Native American, and yes some African blood. The "Native American" ethnic groups that existed in Mexico have either died off or intermixed with the Spanish conquerors many centuries ago. Indeed it has been noted by many Spanish explorers (who came to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America in the 1500s) that "Native American villages were litered with dead bodies within a week or two of their arrival (due largely to the exposure of smallpox, which Europeans brought with them when they came to the Americas). Millions more were killed when the Spanish developed the "encomienda" system, which was an early version of slavery directed at "Native Americas" also known as the Amerindians.

The overwhelming majority of the "Native Americans" that ifasehun speaks of died within the 1st few centuries of Spanish contact. The majority of those who survived would inter-mix and marry with their Spanish conquerors and the African slaves that were there. The result of that mix are the Mexicans you see today. While there are no doubt surviving Amerindians of pure blood that still exist in South America (just like their are in the USA), they are in the absolute minority. The same pattern occurred throughout South America and much of the Caribbean. Therefore Mexicans or any South American group (insert the Portuguese for the Spanish in Brazil) are no more "Native American" than African Americans, as we also have native american blood within us.

Pan, thank you for the history lesson. This is interesting. So those people that we refer to today as "Mexicans" are not an indigenous group to America but they are, essentially, African?

Hey NN.....you seem to be developing a serious interest in Africa, and African history, which I think is great! To answer your question:

No, I'm not saying that Mexicans are essentially African. I'm arguing that they are not an indigenous group to America, because they have inter-mixed with the true "Native Population" of South America, African slaves, and European colonizers (in their case the Spanish). The same has happened with us, except with us, the European colonizers where mainly the British (and in some cases the French). The colonial influence (and inter-mixing)in both of our cultures is reflected in the language that we speak. If Mexicans were truly "Native Americans" with no inter-mixing then you'd have a large number of Mexicans who continue to speak their "Native" tongue (which isn't Spanish).

Take Africa for example. Because of European colonization, every African country has a European language as their "official language": From English, to French, to Spanish, to Arabic. However, every ethnic group in every country has their "Native" tongue. Meaning their original language that existed before Europeans came to Africa. Among the Bubi in Equatorial Guinea the people speak "Bubi", this is the language they speak at home, and they learn Spanish in school. In Senegal most people speak Wolof in the home, and they learn French in school. The same goes for all of Africa, as well as India, and many countries in Asia. This happened because although Europeans occupied these countries (and practically enslaved the people), there was a small amount of intermixing, which allowed the people to retain their culture & language.

Finally I am not saying that Mexicans are essentially African, because while there was an African presence in Mexico. The African presence was much larger in Brazil and in Spanish speaking countries in the Caribbean. In Brazil, Africans make up the largest percentage (over 80%) of the country. The last slave ships to come from Africa in the 1890s (just a little over 100 centuries ago, and after slavery ended in America) went to Cuba. The Dominican Republic's interaction throughout the centuries has created a large African presence there. All that being said there are still black Mexicans. When your skin is as dark as Wesley Snipes, and your hair is like Don King, then you are obviously African......whether you want to be or not........lol! I have seen Mexicans that look like this, not as often as I encounter other Latinos with this appearance, but again they are there.

Moving away from the indigenous conversation for a minute, because that part is confusing me...help me to understand the focus of this thread..."Are Hispanic/Latinos Africans too?"

This might sound a little confusing but please bear with me a moment. I'm really trying to understand your perspectives.

So, in your opinion, what makes a person an African? Your blood mix, your native language, the place where you were born or originated from as a people, or the way you look?

Pan, does the language we speak determine our heritage? This theory would hold true and is consistent with the way the Census defines people. The census considers common language first.

But there's an additional factor involved which stems from a common blood-line, if you will. That explains Africans born in America.

So is what you saying, that because the majority of people in Brazil and the Caribbean were/are of African descent...regardless of the fact that they speak a common language that is foreign to them, despite the fact that they are not native to that part of the world, including the fact that their ancestors were mostly slaves transported from Africa, and taking into consideration the fact that they represent the majority (80%) of the Brazilian population--that makes them Africans too?

good questions NN

Determining heritage can be complicated. Language can be a factor; however, some might argue that language relects more a person's culture than it does their heritage. Appearance is obviously a big factor in determining heritage, but that too can be deceiving. I tend to judge heritage based on tracing where the majority of a person's ancestors come from. In other words I look at a common blood line as you already stated. That is how I link African Americans and other black people across the Diaspora to Africa. Knowing a lot of Africans and having African in-laws furthers this opinion. As all marvel at how African Americans look like the various ethnic groups they know in Africa.

okay, i can concur w/ panafrican on most of what he is saying. although i would say that from a spiritual, not empirical point (basically that i couldnt take my next comment through a scientific test to prove it..lol)

that there are more indigenous people that we believe. that the ancestors of those people continue to predominate a lot of these people.

(in african religion we note that every person has about 3 different people in them for the most part, but that ancestrally one is dominant. and that it doesnt always coorelate with what you see on the outside in the case of people that a product of miscengation or interracial relationships. from that standpoint the lines are harder to view, but in general we see the native american or amerindian as a very strong ancestral line that continues to exist with the mixed personage of Latin, S. American and Caribbean.

Again, if i had to back it up w/ empirical evidence, i would be shot in the water probably. but i am talking ancestrally.

In any case, I think scientifically speaking that they constitute something new, not quite european, not african - but w/ a base of indian (i hate that word.) which still makes them more indigenous that all of us.

colonization sure does complicate matters doesnt it? no black and white, only gray areas now.

i am still learning

i honestly don't know anything firsthand
about being an AFRICAN

i check the box for african american b/c
i am a very talented poet and the origin
of this talent began in Egypt according
to the greeting card association themselves

africans were basically robbed and exploited
of their talents and identity for the mere amusement
of white people since they couldn't naturally exercise
these same natural God given talents themselves
in knowing how rich my ancestry really is of course
i say it loud today that i'm a descendant of Africa and proud

i was born in America as a descendant
of black immigrants from the islands,
native americans, and african slaves
brought to america

panafrica ifasehun has a good point in
believing that latinos are native americans
give her some credit

think about it, where did latinos FIRST
originate? was it on native american
soil? if so, can we say that there is a
such thing as the classification of "latino"?

indians are basically becoming exstinct
we don't know what from what and who
from who anymore because everyone is
trying to live and maintain the best way
they know how and if that means declaring
themselves as anything but "black" or "indian"
then so be it for most people

peace

pd

I now have a clearer understanding of why ifasehun says that Latinos/Hispanics are Native American. However, I can also understand why NNQueen would say that they are Africans as well. I guess it's a toss up. You can't choose land mass or blood line to determine the answer to this question. You could use some genetic test to determine the answer. But, we all know that African genes dominate. So, I guess the point is to let them choose what they are to be...which group they are to follow or to belong to. I doubt seriously if they'll choose either one over the other...unless they are forced to or are afforded some privilege from doing so..such as choosing to be White over African or Native American to achieve status or attain wealth. Hence, I agree with PD...as she makes again the point I was making with the "color" issue in one of my previous posts.

The "color" issue was not to determine the race, ethnicity or to classify Latinos/Hispanics in any way. It was only to point out that, at this point, they may call themselves something totally different from what they were originally...and--I repeat--this point was made eloquently by PD in the previous post.

I could also try to categorize Latinos/Hispanics by looking at mannerisms, thought patterns, more or less right brain-left brain, etc...etc. They, overwhelmingly, would fit right in with Africans. Hence, I would consider them as Africans. But, I digress.

Everyone knows that the islands in the Caribbean and South America were major ports of entry for African slaves. African slaves were imported there to provide strong (unpaid) labor for the major crops or resources primary to the country's economy. They were treated like chattels similar to the way other property i.e., cattle, horses were treated--the way we were caught, transported and breeded to make us more adept to climate, immune to certain diseases, hard labor and other ways that were "profitable" for Europeans.

As a result, you have different "races" of people represented in those locations the same way as there are here in America. I personally know Black Puerto Ricans and White Puerto Ricans.

The "Black" PR's have an obvious appearance of people from Africa--very dark skin and other African physical features; the Whites are the exact opposite--very European looking. They're from the same country and speak the same language but if they didn't speak and you just looked at them, you would see them differently and think of them differently.

In the context of this thread. . . I think we all agree that everyone originated from Africa. However, in more modern terminology and by definition, these individuals (Black/White Puerto Ricans) would not be put in a "racial" category based on the color of their skin, but in an ethnic category based on their common language (Spanish) and country of origin (Puerto Rico).

So yes, they are all Africans, HOWEVER, to our natural eye--one group has a closer (blood) connection to Africa than the other group.

Just my opinion. . .

I don't really know, this is a very interesting topic. My father is Mexican and my mom is white, but I look white.....I dont know what that means, but in general we all came from the same place. Just look at the Afro-Cuban culture, some Cubans look black, while others look more light skinned.

Mariah Carey is half black but has the appearance of someone who could PASS for white from back in the day. Therefore, you more or less would fall in the same category. However, people who PASS for white in general would be treated like those who wouldn't PASS as being white if white people knew of your half black or half mexican side. Have you ever seen imitation of life featuring Lana Turner? If so, then you know what I mean or will understand after watching this movie.

During the construction of the Panama canal,workers were brought over from The West Indies.Most remained in Panama after the job was completed.Some even took Spanish names.Even though they are black in color,are they still considered Hispanics?

dbarka...in translation to modern definitions, yes, they are now "Hispanic" which is an ethnicity and not a race. It's an ethnicity (culturally based definition) because of the fact that what those "new" Panamanians have in common are the fact that Spanish is now their first language and Panama is their place of origin. Technically, they are Africans.


Leshon...you're in an interesting situation because, technically today, "Mexican" isn't considered a race but an ethnic culture. Caucasian is defined as a race. So technically, even though both of your parents are from different backgrounds, I don't know if you could define yourself as "bi-racial." The US federal government would classify you as Hispanic. Is that what you self-identify as?

Yeah that's pretty much it, but I don't really know how the US federal government works like that.

Quote:

"you couldn't be further from the truth. mexico is one of the countries with the largest and most significant surviving native population in the americas. at least 30% of the population are "pure natives", 60% being mixed, and 10% white. the average mexican is very likely more native than the average legally recognized native american in the US. "

Liviti, If 30% of Mexico's population are Amerindian (with little or no intermixture with Spaniards), then that still does not make Mexico an indigenous people. What that means is that 30% of Mexicans are Amerindian, just as 2% of the United States population is Amerindian. If 30% of Mexico is Amerindian, then that means 70% is not. Therefore it is NOT correct to classify all Mexicans as indigenous. I argued against a blanket statement that all Mexicans are Native American, not that there were Amerindians in Mexico.

The same applies to Equador, and almost every other country in Central & South America. With the possible exception of Peru (which you listed as having a 45% Amerindian population). If this is true, I actually think it is great. However I am curious how Amerindians in Peru were able to retain their culture, heritage, and blood to such a great extent when the rest of Amerindians in the Americas could not.

P.S. If the CIA World Fact and Meszito left out "African" in their Spanish-Amerindian racial mixture, then it is not completely accurate. There is an African presence in Mexico. The extent that it exist is debatable, but that it exist is not. It is evident in the clearly black Mexicans that exist in the country. It is evident in the extremely dark children that occasionally "pops up" (or should I say "pops out".......lol!) of "traditional Mexican Women who are married to "traditional Mexican Men. In short it is in their blood.

African Indians . . .
http://newman.baruch.cuny.edu/digital/native/native_thumbs.htm

I honestly can't believe that you people sarted this ****. No Latinos are not Africans. Not only do we have a different background and culture but we look different as well. Some ones skin color does not difine if they are african or not. Unless you were born in Africa shut the **** up you are not African. Hello there are white Africans as well.

Jazmin,

First of all welcome to our forums. It's unfortunate that you didn't see value in our topic along with so many of us here. I have a couple of reactions to your post.

1. It's great that you saw fit to respond to our thread. We try to have interesting and meaningful discussions here, as well as have fun. It would be even better if you refrained from using foul language and offered us more substantive reasons as to why you don't agree that Latinos are Africans.

2. This is a place where we emphasize respect and courtesy to those that come here. We ask that all our family exercise respect for each other and we're asking you to do the same. Your comments were rude and definitely in violation of our Forum Rules. May I suggest that you read the rules before you post here again so that you can be clear about what we ask all our members and guests to adhere to.

Finally, I must warn you. If you continue to post messages in this fashion, not only will they be removed, you will be banned from visiting here again and that would be a shame!

I hope this is clear. Again, welcome and I hope you see fit to cooperate and join us!

Peace :)

The most complex question you all must know it is quite simple. If you see my profile picture then you will see that I am black. I am in PUERTO RICO and understand that speaking from the Caribbean, we all have some type of african Blood in us. You bet so when you say hispanic/latinos are taking your men,.. then you are right. So what we are black too! How many black people have you seen that you said **** she looks hispanic. Do you tell her "you are white." When you know that history tells you we have all colors due to diaspora. Black does not mean you have to have tightly curled hair and being Hispanic/Latino does not say you have loose waves. **** IT PEOPLE! TRAVEL SOMETIMES!

I have been to Brasil all the way to Canada. Everywhere I have been I seen people I know I've seen in Puerto Rico. Lighter skinned Latinos in the Caribbean who deny the Black ~n~ them will suffer the mental disorder due to their lack of understanding. Alongside of that same thing to anyone who believes that latinos are not black. I will not apologize for this. If you dont live in the Caribbean and disagree with me shut up and move down here so we can revise your mind.

STOP SEPARATING OUR PEOPLE!!!

JUST BECAUSE YOUR LATIN SISTER CAN SPEAK SPANISH, DANCE, COOK, CLEAN JUST LIKE YOU. DONT HATE ON HER! I am going to tell you why Black men are coming over to the Black latin! side of things. Most Latin women I know cook at home and just like you they dont take any crap. I have dated american girls(non-white) who take me to their homes and dont even ask me if I want something to drink or eat until I ask. All of these girls where "Educated" and a couple of "Ghetto" queens. If you seen how we do it in latin america you will see why the divorce rate is lower.

When I see a women in the states I dont see black separating us, it is Language, Land Title and culture. Take that from us then we will be Black people again. Stop hating yourself and just love us! We aint going no where! Besides The second language in the states is officially SPANISH so regardless partna' you gotta convert and learn it. Hahahahahah!

LOVE YA AND STOP THE HATING OF YOUR OWN PEOPLE

Welcome Jazmin & Puerto_Rocco

Thank you for both of your contributions to this topic. However I must tell you both that we believe in respecting one another on this website. As such I ask you to please refrain from using any foul language (actual or implied). It is possible to communication one's point without having to resort to the use of foul language. In addition, don't demean the validity of someone's Forum topic (if you don't think it is valid, simply don't respond).

With that being said it is obvious that Puerto Rocco is a black man with some African ancestry, as is the case for so many of our brothers and sisters in the Caribbean (and South America). As a result, Jazmin you might want to take a different look at your beliefs. "Black" Latinos might have a different culture, but the do have a similar background to us. Dark skin isn't a coincidence. Also I challenge your view that you have to be born in Africa to be African. If you parents were from Italy, and your grandparents were from Italy. Even if you were born in America, would you not be Italian also because of your genetic heritage? I define race by genetic (parental) background, not nationality.

Rocco? What's that you're smoking in your picture?

I happened to be smoking on a fine cohiba my fair lady! :x: :x: :D :eek:

cuban cohiba that is... by the way are you trying to use your black woman power to calm me down? Hahahahah!

i AM AN aFRICAN-lATINO FROM PUERTO rICO, i AGREE WITH YOU pANAFRICA, bUT A GREAT MANY PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR ACCEPTED DEFINITION. tRUE THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY, MANY HAVE BEEN STATED. bUT ON THE ISLAND OF p.r. HISTORY AND THE WAYS THINGS HAVE COME DOWN, PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN TO IDENTITY THEMSELFS DIFFERENTLY. i GROW up IN n.y.c AFTER 6. sO i DO SEE mySELF AS BLACK(AFRICA)man. BUT MY COUSINS DON'T. THEY SAY IF YOU HAVE OTHER BLOOD IN YOU, THEN YOU ARE NO LONGER BLACK. i DON'T FEEL THIS WAY, BUT PEOPLE DO HAVE THEIR WAYS.. Whoops, sorry about the caps, I just realize it was on. With love and respect Corvo

Thank you for your input Corvo

Rocco...did it work? You sound much calmer! :)

Hi Everyone,

I've been reading the post for a while. But this is my first reply. I had some info that might help with the discussion. It actually discusses the african divide in Latin america. The adr is:
http://condor.depaul.edu/~dialogo/back_issues/issue_5/alla_y_aca.htm.
It's very interesting. Here's a little of the article.
"And yet Puerto Ricans continue to ignore this more recent history and depend instead on a distorted past that distinguishes them from African Americans, specifically, and Blacks, more generally. We find, then, that the African diaspora has received even less attention than the Puerto Rican diaspora. But the fact remains that over 95% of the diaspora from Africa ended up in Latin America and the Caribbean; South America received 50% of those enslaved Africans, and throughout the colonial period Black people represented majority populations in all the major cities of the Spanish territories. The material and social contributions of these millions of Africans and their descendants to the making of Nuestra América cannot be exaggerated. Nor should we relegate the African presence to a distant past--in myriad forms Africa infuses almost every cultural space of this hemisphere, whether directly or indirectly, whether acknowledged or ignored."

Thankz for this piece of info u posed
thanks for sharing

Thanks indeed for your response Jaimia. It was very interesting, as well as very factual. The truth is there are a high amount of Afro-Latinos, especially in the Caribbean and Brazil. I have heard it said by many of them that race is classified differently in their respective countries (many African Americans except these statements at face value). However I don't believe this is the true story.

As a stated in my first post in this thread. I believe that Afro-Latinos identifying themselves only by their country or by the EXTREMELY broad title of Latino is a social-political tactic. Latinos are coming to this country to make a better life for themselves (to escape poverty & persecution in their homelands). In America blacks (despite the civil rights movement) continue to occupy the bottom of the social-economic system. If Afro-Latinos come to this county & identify themselves as black, then they would inherit the economic & social discrimination that we face. Since they are fleeing from poverty they don't want to face economic discrimination here. Therefore they disassociate themselves from blacks: "My skin might be dark, but I'm not black. I'm Cuban, Mexican, Dominican, etc."

I don't want to become inflammatory, but I suspect many Afro-Latinos of trying to "pass". Similar to what many light skinned African Americans have done over the centuries. In the case of Afro-Latinos however instead of using "light skin" they are using language and national origin. Comments made by a few Afro-Latinos who I know personally, and do identify with their blackness, confirms this. As well as the honest statements made by Corvo. That Afro-Latinos would go through such lengths to deny their African heritage is sad to me. However it is a reality that many Afro-Latinos do not want to be a part of the African Diaspora (black as coal, but don't wanna be called black).

Although as a PanAfricanist I consider them to be brothers and sisters. I don't consider them allies until (and unless) they claim their blackness. Again it is a shame because they could be powerful allies; however, you can't force an ostrich to take it's head out to sand.

I to embrace all of my Afro people. If anyone is interested there is actually a website called AfroLatino at: Afrolatino.com. There are many Proud Afro Latinos that celebrate their African roots. And I just met a Blacklatino that admitted that he once denied his roots. Even though he is dark skinned but now love all of his blackness. So there are those that embrace it and those that are learning. So there's still hope for even the weaker ones.

There is

humm!,.. the last three post are off. it sounds like that you can say, know more than AfricanLatinos what AfricanLatinos are. I think you totaly misconsive what latinos are and African Latinos are. there is a difereence is. North Americance blacks?African Americans, doen't deside what the definicions are. I am saying that, some are Latinos and some chose to be identifird as AfricanLatinos. We say what we are. Not Noth American"s Blacks. YOU are not qualified to tell, others how to see themselfs. That would be arrogent of you. You can't define others, NOt all Latinos are of African heritage, As no are n.Americans. But there are people in Latine America that are of African heritage.. You need to look closer at how some of you are ignoring what is on the table, of knowledge? I'm surprise at the lack of informatiom on this issue....?

I have never said that all Latinos are Afro-Latinos, nor did I imply that the majority of Latinos are of African heritage. I clearly made a difference between Afro-Latinos (whom I consider to be brothers & sisters) and the rest of the Latino community. If you feel that our defination of what an Afro-Latino is wrong, then please give your defination. Since you stated earlier that you consider yourself an African Latino, then your defination is extremely important to this topic. I only ask that you be specific, so no further misunderstanding are made

To add to what I just wrote. Corvo I think a more detailed explanation is in order because you stated that you consider yourself to be a African man, while your cousins don't. Since you more than likely have the same background & appearance as your cousins. Why do you consider yourself to be African? Why don't they? I think your answer would in turn answer much of the questions asked on this thread.

I am aware that there are Latinos and others who are not of african decent . I am also aware that there are people as Panafrican noted who might be passing. It takes stronger people to deal with racism there are those that are weaker and cannot so they choose to "pass" if possible. I don't feel that it's my place to tell anyone who they are, that WOULD be arrogant. I'm only referring to my Afrolatinos who have embraced me as well as I them.
I was referring to Afro people only. For those who do not consider themselves of African decent then I am not referring to you . I am not into recruiting anyone. If there are Afro latinos that are not of African descent or have a special African decent that is different from other people of African decent then I am not referring to you. I don't want to offend anyone. Or give the impression that I am trying to tell people who they are. if someones skin is as dark as coal and they say that they do not have African heritage thats fine and Dandy. Somethings are just common sense. Nothing has to be said. It's each persons choice to live as whom ever they choose to be. Be as different as you want. I have wonderful friends that are AfroLatinos who are my Afro family and don't mind me saying that. Hopefully the thought of being different is not being confused with being better than.
I will not longer post about the AfroLatino issue because I'm not qualified. I've already been taught my place.

I'm with you Jaimia, and please don't be discouraged from posting on this topic or any other. This is an open forum and message board. Some people might be able to add special insight, but no one's opinions are invalid.

Thank you Panafrica

Hi folks, I've been away, Doing a whorkshop on an African-Brazilian Art form, called Capoeira. When I responed I did not have alot of time.

I was trying to say you where a little off on your perseptions. Panafrica I was not accusing you of any thing. I wish to inform my Brothers and Sisters of different out-looks on this issue. Alot of how we(all People) identify ourselfs iare based on different critiria. As has been said of African-Americans historicly.

"That Afro-Latinos would go through such lengths to deny their African heritage" In puerto Rico most Latinos of African desent don't denei that they have African blood. because it's on their face. But because of the way P.R's have intregated historically, Race was looked at a little different that in the U.S of A. there, in PR you where not an African if you where part(blood) of an other race( i do understand that we are of one race).
So getting to my point. In PR, the populattion was mayed of onethird free blaks from spain and other parts, onethird white spanish, onethird tainos and Africans(enslaved). In PR unlike in the US of A you would stop being black, if you had Taino, or white blood in you( or many others). Remember that Free-Blacks also had a level of power here, Blacks were not without say, as here(US)

So I have adapted now the USA or African-American way of looking at race, in that if you have one drop of African you are a Black man. The rest of the world does not share this veiw, with us.

Corvo, thank you for explaining what you meant. I find your explanation even more interesting in that in PR, if your blood is mixed, one loses their identity as an African and in the USA it's the opposite.

The "one drop of Black blood" rule was put in place to establish and uphold racist attitudes and systems in the US. Mixing of races between Africans and Europeans was vehemently abhorred and strongly prohibited. This was a part of a deliberate and strategic plan to subjugate Africans to a less than human existence in this country and put us on the same level as chattel. So, to be all-African or even part African was something that people quickly learned was not something you wanted running through your veins.

I'm curious though, can you explain why people in PR think that if you're multi-racial, you're no longer African? Where did this way of thinking stem from? So if you're no longer African if you're of mixed heritage, what does that make you? Simply Puerto Rican? That would be like me saying that I'm simply an American.

Have I read what you wrote correctly?

Peace!

Adding my VERY late thoughts to this topic --


Mexicans/ Mezzo Americans have a ethnic lineage
to Native Americans -
So i would say that Mexicans and some
S. American hispanic peoples
have nothing to do with us Black folks
(except a shared enemey of course)

However,

Cuban and Puerto Ricans -
being one of the first destinations of
the Slave Trade into this Western part of the world -
are very much African.

Not all hispanics are the same.

I don't mean the dark skin brothers in Belize and Argentina -
I mean Cubans and Puerto Ricans have prominent
African features very different from Mexicans.

so.. that's that.


and if you know a cuban girl20 -25 whose single.
tell her to call me.

LOL @ Hyp.........this isn't Latino hook-up. But if you are truly interested in meeting an Afro-Cuban, you'd have to leave OH and come to NJ.....there are plenty here.

lol@Hyp....*smh* thanks for the reply...and it wasn't late. Who's computer you typing on? :)

NNQueen, Yes I think you are with , with what I wrote. " I find your explanation even more interesting in that in PR, if your blood is mixed, one loses their identity as an African and in the USA it's the opposite". Yes this is an interesting thing, that I had to sort out, because I am now bicultural. and it was not easy for me to come to where I'm now. But it did not become completely clear till I read some interesting history of the island now called Puerto Rico(Borinque).
Alot has to do with the attitudes of the Spanish (not all). Spain was conquired and occupied by the Moors for 450 years. They were admidnistered if you will by blackAribs- Aribs from North Africa. So that the spanish did not feel toward black-Africans the way the Britzs did. black-Africans where already working in spain as free men and some where enslaved Africans before colombus talked to the king of spain for ships. These Africans were stillled artisans and skilled workers of steel and masonry as well as ship builders. So that there work was needed in the new world when settlement had begone. Because PR did not have the laws of the USA, nor the scorn that the Yanks have. people just were not African if you where born in PR and was a Mulato or Meztizo, or a trigenllo(tricolor). The blackess of the slaves was put at the bottom of needs and rights. So people marreid others for higher status. Ofcause I am oversimplyfing the details, but peoples identity became toward the culture and the island. our food, music and dance, languish all reflect the three different cultures combined into one. So that most people of PR do mix, But not all, there are the provential, racist, white Spanish class that does not, and like the Britzs, pride themselfs as being pure.

Great response Corvo....thank you. I had to laugh at your last comment though "Spanish class.....pride themselves as being pure."

Is there such a thing as pure in the context of race other than Africans?

I don't think all Latinos are "African" particuliarly the majority of mexicans, peruvians and the like. THe respective countries were pre-dominantly mestizo, and not mulatto. Although all of these countries have african populations. With the exception of brazil, most latin american countries, excluding the caribbean comprise of mestizos or europeans. I would also suggest that we as black people should not be so hasty as to insist that latinos claim to be black. THey should be allowed to claim whatever heritage they deem fit. Hotep

I consider myself part of the African family

Latinos is not a race, it is a culture, it is based in latin america, the latin american population has whites, indians, blacks and asians and all kinds of mixtures of all of the above.

The africans that i have met consider me part of the family.

Some blacks from the USA consider me part of the family.

Greetings to all. Pardon the errors in posting [this is my first].

- I prefer the term Afro-[Nationality], because it connects the individual to the African Diaspora, inmediate roots, Motherland, and most importantly lets the world knows where his / her mindset is situated. For example, having being born in the Dominican Republic, I prefer the term Afro-Dominican. For someone who doesn't physically knows me, the term Afro-Dominican by itself says a great deal.

- Afro-Latin America is the most misunderstood segment of the African Family / Diaspora, and perhaps the most miseducated unless you're a Garifuna from Central America or a marginalized & segregated member from Ecuadorian, Peruvian, Mexican etc. societies. We are still to this day academically brainwashed to believe that Africans [Blacks] are a people without a tradition and a Story [not his- story]. We have Afro-Latinos still venerating Spain & Cristopher Columbus. Thanks to ancestors such as Afro-Puerto Rican, Arturo A. Shomburg [Shomburg Center in NYC for the Research of Black History] who dared to defied the racial 'statuo quo' at a very early in his native Puerto Rico - we have a rich Story to tell the world. He was born 10 months after the abolition of slavery in Puerto Rico.

http://www.si.umich.edu/CHICO/Harlem/text/aschomburg.html

Hotep and welcome Olorun 1,

very valid and important comments on this thread. Keep up the good work and enlightenment.

Peace

Olorun 1...welcome and thank you for the enlightening message!

Peace!

I'm Brasilian, I call myself brasilian because first I'm from Brasil and second our culture is an unique blend of cultures that came from Europe and other continents, but the most predominant of course is African, many people in Brasil may be considered mulattoes but mulattoes still have african blood in their vains, is confusing ! I agree that many latinos don't know their true identity, even more Brasilian

I'll tell you what I'm, I am a latino because my first language is a latin orginated language; Portuguese.
I'm not a hispanic because my country wasn't colonized by Spain ( even though the hispanic meaning in US is anyone that is latin american or descendents that live in the US)
I'm a native descendent because my grandma on my dad's side was descendent of natives
I'm part Italian because my grandpa on my mom's side had italian descendence
I have African lineage because my grandpa (dad's side) was black.
I'm brasilian because of all this blend, but if is to question whether I'm an african or not I would say yes, because my beliefs and my culture leads me to Africa

I hear ya Renata, I ask many people from former Portuguese and spanish colonies, who deny they are black... suppose you were to walk inside a diner in a small redneck town in Mississippi, today, what do they think the white folks would call them? you know the rest

Hotep

Indeed....Renata and Olorun1. Thank you for your input, it is much welcome in this discussion.

Jambo

-Thank you all for your warm welcome, and the 'homey' vibrations I get from your words.

*Sekhemu, your post reminds me of the scenario I usually paint to my fellow Dominicans. They're usually very critical of my accepted NEGRITUDE & I tell them that when the cops stop me, all he / she knows and sees is that they are in front of a goatee, shaved-head, earring wearing Black man - 6'1" 240 lbs.. Any sudden move in my part - and they give me the same treatment they gave brother Amadou Diallo [who was a small & slim brother]. In other words, if you don't know who you are, you can rest assured that the world definitely will properly,
classify you.

PEACE

As someone who would be a "white" Latina in the eyes of many, I consider myself to be a part of the African Diaspora. I think those of us that are more politically aware and frankly educated understand this notion and consider ourselves a part of it. However, in the Americas there has been a social caste system which has lead Hispanic/Latinos to believe that white is better. However, for the most part, I would say that national identity rather than racial identity is more valued in the Americas (excluding US and Canada).

One look at my family and you will see that our heritage is primarily African and European and I deny neither. However, am I African? No. Am I European? No. For me my identity is Latino because of the blend it represents.

As two Puerto Rican poets have said, "I am a Child of the Americas". I experience discrimination because of my accent. Some of my Latino Hermanos and Hermanas experience it because of their skin color. Much of our culture was created when three worlds collided and as such we share many things in common with all major racial groups including Asian.

As for the notion that the indigenous peoples of the Americas died when Columbua raped this land, that is incorrect. In South and Central America their are many native groups in the mountain and country sides that only speak their native language and still live as their ancestors did. Some of those groups have come to America for survival as well. There exist Mayans in North Georgia. They speak no Spanish and still have customs of their ancestors. If you look at the Spanish of certain groups of Latinos, you will also notice that their dialect has many words that are indigenous. Many of the words that I grew up speaking that I thought were Spanish were in fact Taino in origin.

I know I am late in this posting but I just ran across this site doing research for a project and had to put in my two cents.

Kijarah ... Welcome and thanks for sharing your view with us. Please feel free to browse the entire forum, adding input where ever you'd like ... feeling free to make yourself at home.

:heart:

Destee

Hotep..
Of course there is a tactic in place to divide us. Yes, hispanics are Africans. There is a richness in culture and complexion whether it be pecan tan or mocha mohagany.... WE ARE AFRICAN PEOPLE. The same AFRICAN people. We have been brought to all areas in and around the United States as well as other places. How can hispanics not know who they are? How can "black african americans" not know who hispanics are? Where do hispanics get that beautiful skin? Not mother Russia. (smile) I think that most black folks forget that when we were brought here (and i'm not talking about the Native Americans who migrated from AFRICA...) english was not our first language, therefore, and spanish wasn't the first language of hispanics.. let's unite and teach truth. eternally,

GODIVA 08-06-03

I think, we need to be careful not to insist, that all hispanics be called African. That would be a little misguided. The majority of Mexicans are for the most part Mexicas, or native american. the rest are Mestizo.

Ofcourse Mexicans comprise a huge portion of latin americans. A country like Argentina, is comprised of many transplanted Europeans from Italy, Spain, Germany and other western European countries. They also have a large Mestizo population as well. In fact Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Panama, Domincan Republic and Honduras, are the few countries in latin america with large African populations

Countries like Venezuela, columbia, peru, curacao, guatemala et al have a minority African population. I'm everybody knows this. Or at least they should.

My point being is that I believe, we should allow Latinos/latinas to define themselves however they see fit. Even if it is obvious they are black or have african blood in their veins.

Black folks, we have been leaders in the struggle for equality and others follow along when it serves to benefit them.

At the rallys to end police brutality, who's mostly there?

At the crossroads of so called "civil rights" who were most of the people in the heat of the battle?

In the coalitions that deal with equality, civil rights etc. who are most of the people on board?

Who's had the most tumultuous history in this country?

Who's treated as underclass by other "minorities" concerning anything besides entertainment or giving them commerce?

Be accepting of yourselves and those that claim it first. Notice that these other groups aren't worried about who claims them or if we claim them.

It is important that WE know the TRUTH, but it is just as important to be able to build with those who accept it and let the cards fall where they may for those who don't.

Very good points Deepa, and very well said. True indeed

I feel you Deepa.

This Latino/African question makes no sense. Brazil has the second largest recognized African population in the world, only second to Nigeria. An African born in North America is no different and has no more claim to his African-ness, then any other African born in the exilic diaspora. So-called Latinos of African descent have to find their own since of African identity in their own time (not to say that many have not been in-tune with their roots all the time). Afro-Cubans still practice different forms of indigenous African religions, one being Lucumi (better known as Santeria).

Who scrutinized our since of African identity, when we were still going around calling ourselves Negroes, colored, Creoles and “just” Americans (no hyphenation)?

At one time, if you called us Black, we were ready to fight.

And god forbid, someone called us an “African”.

I understand, that many so-called Latinos are still trying to understand the racial politics of the Western Hemisphere. But you have to realize that this Black and Brown thing, though real, is really ridiculous. Believe it or not a lot of this is more about, what COLONIAL LANGUAGE you speak, then it is about racial or ethnic identity.

I was reading World Almanac years ago and it categorized, ALL PUERTO RICAN PEOPLE as Afro-Hispanic.

AFRO-HISPANIC, AFRO-CUBAN, AFRO-BRAZILIAN, AFRO-AMERICAN,

What’s the difference?

DIVIDE AND CONQUER, ALL THE TIME
DIVIDE AND CONQUER, ALL THE TIME

I’ll never forget watching a boxing match years ago, with a friend (African American), who happened to be light skinned with sort of hazel eyes. One boxer was Puerto Rican and the other was from, an English-speaking, formerly British colonized, island in the Caribbean. Both men were obviously of African descent. I asked him, which fighter was he betting on? He said, “the brother!” I said, “which one?” He said, “What do you mean? I’m betting on the Black man.” I responded, “Man, it’s obvious that they’re both Black.” I will never forget what he said,
“You know the one that speaks English."

DIVIDE AND CONQUER, ALL THE TIME
DIVIDE AND CONQUER, ALL THE TIME

ASHE,

Sun Ship

Footnote: In some parts of this post, I used Afro-American, instead of African American or “just” African, for contextual clarity.

there are persons in latin america who are african there are also persons who are european and there are natives. it really is no different than america. brazil for example has a large population of african, portuguese and native indian persons. although all are latino, all are not african. there is also a good degree of inter marriage thus the various shades of brown. i fail to understand how we can deny any of these people as being african. surely if they have african blood then they are, well, african.

I have read so many takes on what & who's African. Negritute is beyond what you see [eyes/physical]. It is a mindset moreso than biological and yet we cannot detach the obvious melanin trait from it.

Africaness, Negritude, Blackness ect.. for lack of a better term is a rebirth, a newfound consciousness of self. A self which was erased from the STORY of Our World. In claiming your NEGRITUDE, you're intergrating to what's human and spiritual.
*Remember the argument of white folks in the past to justify their cruelty to us: "They are uncouth, uncivilized, property, beasts of burden, the white men's burden, devoid of soul, they are like sheep - cattle - chickens blah-blah-blah." We have heard it so much & continue to hear it -- that some us continue to believe it and behave accordingly.

People of the stature of Adam Clayton Powell Jr., W.E.B. Dubois, Arturo Shomburg, Malcolm X and others have proven that skin color is NOT the primary ingredient to an African consciouss mind.

PEACE & MUCH RESPECT

I started reading this thread, but must admit that it was too much strain for my eyes this morning. An hour later into the reading I just skipped forward to a reply.

Growing up in Brooklyn, I've always had friends from many different cultures and backgrounds. When I was little, I had trouble understanding this concept of "race" and remembered how these racist nuns in the Christian school I attended made me feel like I should ONLY uphold the "white" aspects of my culture. After some inner soul searching, I went in the opposite direction seeking out the "black" aspects of my culture. Then, I realized how silly I was to ever have adopted a system that would cause me to segregate my own family and background. I did not want to be separated from myself, so I ended up calling myself a "spic" and leaving it at that. I was content to live with that reality. As long as I knew the TRUTH OF MY BEING, no words could offend me... people's small-mindedness could not harm me... I would be able to communicate this feeling, this knowledge, this wisdom to others who sought to find their OWN identity in this "Black and White" country.

After working in the agricultural fields of Bakersfield, California for 5 years, my grandfather moved to New York in 1962. He bought a two-story house and sent for the rest of the family who were still living on the island. This little brick flat was basically one of the few boricua "spots" in a community that was experiencing "white flight", the neighborhood of East New York in Brooklyn. The majority of the people moving in at this time were African-Americans and Puerto Ricans. So, I grew up around African-Americans and Boricuas. I didn't see a lot of "Whites" until I started attending High School in suburban Queens.

I upheld my family values first and then those of my adopted community who made me aware of what the REAL deal was. I studied all the Negro literature from Langston to Malcolm to MLK. Knowledge of my own people came from the Elders in my family who transmitted all their stories and wisdom through long drawn out conversations at the many neighborhood parties we used to throw. When I got older, I discovered the mystery of my history, my pride deepened. I began to understand how colonized I was. I knew we were not "white" or "black", but a little of everything. I just didn't know exactly WHAT. I would take one look at my family and get confused. Every shade and hair-type existed in my house-hold. It even seemed stranger to a lot of my American friends who used to make "mira mira" jokes about us on the regular (all in good fun, of course) cause we spoke Spanish with this machine-gun quickness and snapped our necks with the best of them. I couldn't explain US to THEM, so I chose to just NOT deal with those issues and went about my business. I dated women from every background without any issues. Well, except this one girl, her mother, an Italian lady, threw garbage bags over her plastic-covered furniture before I was allowed to sit down. She would always leave the room when I was there. I didn't like that feeling that I was "dirty", so I stopped visiting her. Eventually, we broke up because of differences, but I never forgot how they treated me. I felt like some "exotica".

My mother is of Afro-Taino descent and my father is descended from Canary Islanders (off the coast of Western Sahara). Neither side is, of course, pure... since Puerto Ricans have been intermarrying among peoples of varied cultures since the times when people first appeared on that island. Taino married Carib or Maya or Arawak (yes, Arawak are a separate people from the Taino... Taino are NOT a sub-group as previously believed... but, that's another story)... then, the Spaniards raped all the Native women, as the conquerors of the Caribbean were mostly MALE.

Who were these MALES to come into this "New World"? Spaniards, Portuguese and Moors (the navigators). Since the Caribbean was not seen as a place to settle, they did not bring their wives and families. They went into the islands with the intent to exploit and gain riches. After subjugating and annhilitaing the Taino culture, many Taino men women and children died from disease and/or violence (hanging, burning, impalement, dismemberment, etc.). The rest were "Christianized", forced to adopt Christian names and Spanish values. They blended in and formed the next generation of Caribbean peoples... the "mestizos" (from the French "metisse" meaning "mixed"). These hybrid people showed better resistance to diseases.

The first Africans brought into the "New World" during this time were Ladinos (not the Jews, but Africans reared in Spain as servants. Jews had been expulsed from Muslim Spain, along with Muslims, in 1492). Juan Garrido, a Ladino, is credited with bring many "Old World" cropseeds here into the Americas. After the Indigenous labor force was almost totally obliterated, the Spanish intensified the importing of Africans... the majority were from the Congo areas and spoke Bantu languages. They were agriculturally-inclined and could be subjugated easily. In the 19th Century, a more "urbanized" people, the Yoruba-speaking peoples of SW Nigeria (merchants, traders, specialists) were enslaved, shackled and brought over. They came in great numbers to replace the dying numbers of slaves on Caribbean plantations (so rigorous was slavery in the islands that slaves usually died after 7 years). Most African descended people from Cuba and Puerto Rico have a strong element of Yoruba lineages as these were the last ones brought over before emancipation. After the liberation of Haiti, the sugar industry shifted over to Cuba and P.R. Yoruba became incorporated into was is called "Bozal Spanish". Thousands of words, customs, values and beliefs entered the Spanish Caribbean world. The Yourba-speaking people were highly complex and extremely social. They quickly dominated the other ethnicities in those islands... mostly thorugh their organizational capabilities and their highly-urbanized ways. The history of the rising and falling of Empires in West and Central Africa closely parallels the periods as to WHICH ethnic tribes were sold into slavery. The Spaniards kept very detailed chronicles of their captures. This was a business, so the documentation was on point. Today, most tribal affiliations and pheno-typical traits of those brought over are known from these well-kept records.

Anglos who actually came to settle in the "New World" did so in the areas now known as the 13 original United States. These people brought with them their families. Because of this, segregation from "foreigners" was now possible. "Whites" could intermarry with other "Whites" and stay apart from the "Blacks". With the exception of Cuba, a huge plantation economy, most of the Spanish Caribbean people simply had sex out of wedlock or with someone from another so-called "race". The family unit was not so much a constant thing here in plantation societies. The one legacy that did remain from the Taino culture was that of the extended family... where families became huge villages due to the acceptance of other people's orphaned children... "hijos de crianza" ("raised children"). The African, who was used to living in large communities, also followed this ideal. Africans and Tainos freely intermarried and formed "Sambos", the name given to a cross hybrid between an African & a Taino. Moreover, Protestant America (the U.S.), who preached the deed and the Word, had a strong belief in frugalism. They purchased slaves at a cheap prace. They preferred those who were already raised and trained to work on plantations in the Caribbean, since Africans from Africa would be considered too wild and the most rebellious of the lot. They wanted enslaved Africans who would not run away. They wanted slaves who could easily adapt to the plantations of the American South. They left the African leg of the trade to the Spanish and Portuguese who were already used to "trading" on the Slave Coasts of that continent. The majority of slaves in the South came from the Islands of the Caribbean. So, the question now turns around... are U.S. African-Americans really Latino?

Canary Islanders began to come after the formation of the colonies and began to form the so-called "white" peasantry we hear about or read about in books or on the internet (cross check all your references as not everything you read in books or online is law... they're simply someone's opinions). The Canary Islands was a sort of "refill station" for "New World"-bound ships. This naturally attracted those island folks into the Caribbean. Ethno-linguists have noted that Canary Island Spanish has left an imprint in many words of the Puerto Rican vocabulary (ie: "guagua" for "bus"). These folks brought with them their own form of agricultural techniques. They were a people mostly formed from North African Berber (all colors and hair types), Spanish & Portuguese lineages. As they were claimed by Spain in the 15th century, they spoke the language of the colonizer. They ALSO intermarried.

My family traces its lineages back to Ponce, Puerto Rico as far back as the 1700's. Right now, there is a lot of talk going on because DNA evidence has rewritten the history which we have been taught. Although the business of slavery was well-recorded, census taking was not. The numbers were based upon what one considered themselves to be or waht people PERCEIVED them to be. People could also by "white papers" in what was called "Registro de Sangre" ("Blood Registry") if they could prove they had at LEAST one "white" parent for four generations back (obviously, no one was pure then... read "Not of Pure Blood" by Jay Kinsbruner). Up until the 1860's, the majority of African persons in Puerto Rico numbered around 50%. This scared European slavers who did not want another Haitian Revolution. Spain issued a decree in 1815 called the "Cedula de Gracias" ("Decree of Grace"), which stimulated "white" Catholic, European families to settle the islands. They were given a certain amount of $$$ and allowed to have 6 slaves. After this the African population began a steady decline due to intermarriage with an influx of people from Europe, Taino (a group of 2,000 who suddenly re-appeared in Puerto Rico right before the 1790's census after having been re-located to Mona Island for 200 years by the Spanish) & migrants from other areas of the Caribbean who were escaping the harshness of slavery in the other more oppressive colonies. Ponce, Mayaguez and Loiza received a high proportion of enslaved Africans and Taino who co-existed peacefully against Spanish-born authorities. Unlike written in the history books, Tainos did not ALL die off. Their CULTURE was destroyed, but they lived on as broken-up pockets of people who lived amidst the greater society (also, in the majority of persons who shared the Taino genes).

After the American invasion in 1898, immigration to Hawaii began out of Ponce (1900-1901)... all persons coerced to leave were mostly of Indigenous background. Then several waves of migration to NYC and the Northeastern U.S. began after 1910... escalating until the late 1950's. After 1959, white Cubans fleeing the Nationalization of Cuba ended up on the island forming the new "Puerto Rican" elite. Even Ferre, the pro-statehood governor, was of Cuban exile parents. These folks, along with other Republican-aligned persons, began the movement that would scare the crap out of most of us who do NOT want to become the 51st state.

In the 1930's a doctor operating under a Cecil Roades scholarship, intended to inject cancerous cells into Puerto Ricans in a thwarted genocide plot. He considered Puerto Ricans the "most thievish race to ever inhabit the planet" and that we should all be "wiped out". He murdered about 8 when he was discovered. (http://www.finalcall.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.pl?archive=2&num=269) He passed it off as cancer research.

In the 1960's the U.S brought "birth control" experiments to the island. In a documentary called "La Operacion" (The Operation) a U.S. plot was revealed to give hysterectomies to the black and brown women of the island in order to "whiten" the future generations of Puerto Ricans before incorporation into the 50 states. This came 5 decades after Roosevelt's initial plan to convert Puerto Rico into federal penitentiaries where, according to some of his private correspondence, would make the island "suitable to incarcerate uppity Negroes from the South"... away from the mainland populations. After seeing how they BOMBED Vieques for over 60 years, this never surprised me at all.


Now, Puerto Rico even has Asians, Koreans and other unchecked nationalities who live and call that island home. I prefer our OWN sovereignity... only so that we could better comtrol what is going on in our land. At this point, we have become America's favorite testing ground of everything from bombs to killer viruses. I believe we need to assert our identity and take our land BACK. It is a very different place than what it used to be.


The New Negro (http://www.rit.edu/~nrcgsh/bx/bx09a.html)
Race- Power of an Illusion (http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm)
Amistad (http://instruct.westvalley.edu/gallup/amistad.html)

History is written by the conquerors. The Native peoples of North
America know this all too well, as they are still trying to bring the
truth to light. Now, their long-lost Caribbean cousins are beginning
the same process.

It's an uphill battle.

Most Puerto Ricans know, or think they know, their ethnic and racial
history: a blending of Taino (Indian), Spanish and African. Students
of the islands' past have read the same account for over 300 years;
that the Native people, and their societies, were killed off by the
Spanish invaders by the 1600s. It was always noted though, how many of
the original colonists married Taino women or had Taino concubines,
producing the original mestizaje (mixture) that, when blended with
African, would produce Puerto Ricans.

Those first unions, according to the conventional wisdom, explain why
some Puerto Ricans have "a little bit" of Native heritage. Mainly we
are Spanish, we are told, with a little African blood and far-away
Taino ancestry.

But the order of that sequence will have to change.

Dr. Juan Martinez Cruzado, a geneticist from the University of Puerto
Rico Mayaguez who designed an island-wide DNA survey, has just
released the final numbers and analysis of the project, and these
results tell a different story.

According to the study funded by the U.S. National Science Foundation,
61 percent of all Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mitochondrial DNA, 27
percent have African and 12 percent Caucasian. (Nuclear DNA, or the
genetic material present in a gene's nucleus, is inherited in equal
parts from one's father and mother. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited
only from one's mother and does not change or blend with other
materials over time.)

In other words a majority of Puerto Ricans have Native blood.

"Our study showed there was assimilation," Martinez Cruzado explained,
"but the people were not extinguished. Their political and social
structure was but the genes were not.

"The people were assimilated into a new colonial order and became
mixed . but that's what Puerto Ricans are: Indians mixed with Africans
and Spaniards," he asserted.

"There has been an under-estimation of the Amerindian heritage of
Puerto Rico, much larger than most historians will admit," he said.

Martinez Cruzado cited the historical descriptions of life in Puerto
Rico during the 17th and 18th centuries as an example.

"These accounts describe many aspects that are totally derived from
Taino modus vivendi, not just the hammocks but the way they fished,
their methods of farming, etc.," he related. "It is clear that the
influence of Taino culture was very strong up to about 200 years ago.
If we could conduct this same study on the Puerto Ricans from those
times, the figure would show that 80 percent of the people had Indian
heritage."

Another historical moment that should receive more attention involves
the story of a group of Tainos who, after 200 years of absence from
official head-counts, appeared in a military census from the 1790s. In
this episode, a colonial military census noted that all of a sudden
there were 2,000 Indians living in a northwestern mountain region.
"These were Indians who the Spanish had placed on the tiny island of
Mona (just off the western coast of Puerto Rico) who survived in
isolation and then were brought over," Martinez Cruzado said. "They
became mixed but there were many Indians who survived but eventually
mixed with the Africans and Spaniards. These Mona Tainos must have had
a further influence as well".

Martinez Cruzado noted how many customs and history were handed down
through oral tradition. To this day on the island, there are many
people who use medicinal plants and farming methods that come directly
from the Tainos.

This is especially true of the areas once known as Indieras, or Indian
Zones.

He also pointed out that most of these Native traditions probably do
come from the Tainos, the Native people who appeared on the island
circa 700 AD. But there were other waves of migrations to Puerto Rico
and the entire Caribbean area.

Through the extensive study of the Puerto Rican samples, Martinez
Cruzado and his team have found connections between island residents
and Native peoples who arrived before and after the Tainos. He pointed
out how a few of the samples can be traced back 9,000 years from
ancient migrations, while others correspond to the genetic makeup of
Native peoples of the Yucatan, Hispaniola, Margarita Island and Brazil
among others. These latter genetic trails point to the presence of
other Native peoples who were probably brought to the island as slaves
from other Spanish or Portuguese colonies after the 1600s.

While island scholars will have much work to do to catch up with these
"new" facts, the genetic detective work for Martinez Cruzado is also
far from finished. As word spread of the remarkable survey, other
scholars from the Dominican Republic, Cuba and Venezuela began to
invite the Puerto Rican scientist to present his findings. They also
want him to assist in similar projects in their respective countries.

"We started a very similar survey in the Dominican Republic last
year," he stated. "And archaeologists from Venezuela and Cuba have
invited me to do the same and I intend to go . I hope to have a
proposal ready to collect samples in both of those countries and do a
Caribbean-wide study. They already have evidence of migrations from
both sides, north and south."

In the meantime, while Martinez Cruzado and his colleagues will focus
on the history of Pre-Columbian migrations, people in the current
Taino restoration movement (such as Nacion Taina, The Jatibonicu Taino
Tribal Nation of Boriken, Taino Timucua Tribal Council, the United
Confederation of Taino People, and others) are hoping that many of
their compatriots reflect on the following quote: "The DNA story shows
that the official story was wrong," Martinez Cruzado said. "This means
a much larger Amerindian inheritance for Puerto Ricans."

And if some folks in the Dominican Republic and Cuba are right, the
same will hold true for their histories.

(NNQueen) "I find your explanation even more interesting in that in PR, if your blood is mixed, one loses their identity as an African and in the USA it's the opposite.

The "one drop of Black blood" rule was put in place to establish and uphold racist attitudes and systems in the US. Mixing of races between Africans and Europeans was vehemently abhorred and strongly prohibited. This was a part of a deliberate and strategic plan to subjugate Africans to a less than human existence in this country and put us on the same level as chattel. So, to be all-African or even part African was something that people quickly learned was not something you wanted running through your veins.

I'm curious though, can you explain why people in PR think that if you're multi-racial, you're no longer African? Where did this way of thinking stem from? So if you're no longer African if you're of mixed heritage, what does that make you? Simply Puerto Rican? That would be like me saying that I'm simply an American."


You ARE an American... to us anyway. The thing obviously is that this country upholds the "one drop of Negro blood" rule, which, quite honestly, would make almost everyone black. Furthermore, if I were to say that I am "Black" only (I'm addressing the multitiude of posts I read here), after a while I would start running into such issues such as: "What makes a person 'black enough'?"... "Am I on this side or THEIR side?"... etc. Theories like the one of "Dr. Yacub" arise as a backlash to racist ideologies. Which, to be quite frank, is just as ridiculous as the ideas of separate "races". We are one "race" out of Africa... punto. Forget all that social shiznit and look at the REALITY of the world. We did not come out of a "Garden of Eden" and all that. Reality shows us what we are... hominids from one specific branch of the primate family. If we were truly of different "races", we would not be able to breed with each other. Sit there and talk about Creation myths til you're blue in the face. Tainos believe we came from a turtle... the Yoruba believe a chicken came down to earth and scratched around spreading the Earth. If I sat here and believed those "myths" (used to explain how things occured in a time when science did not exist in the way we know it today) word for word, I would be some out-of-touch NUTJOB who should simply be ignored. Science and religion should be looked upon as equal tools for which to decipher our environment. If you cannot raise your mental observations high and above the selfishly-created social constructs of this world, you may NEVER understand what Truth, in its true essence, is. If society doesn't want to rise along with you... you should STILL. Others will eventually follow suit.

Latinos, as a whole, tend to be CULTURE FIRST. It is how we've learned to cope with the incessant people mixture that is much, much higher than here. As U.S. citizens (sic), Puerto Ricans have been forced to accept U.S. terms in order to understand ourselves. This is one of the things which rubs us the wrong way about our colonizer. We do NOT care for that (even though there are some idiot Ricans that may feel the need to align themselves with this fallacious idea of "race"). The majority of us still prefer to be considered a people based on culture than the colors of our skins.

As I had said in a previous post, I learned to deal with "race" concepts as a child. I used to feel depressed about being a person of color. The racist nuns at the Christian school I attended drilled this "white ideal" into me that was almost very hard to erase. I began to despise myself for what I could not help. Now, these days, I have a much healthier outlook on the world. Anger is anger... and YES I feel highly upset when I go through documents that show how my fathers raped and killed my mothers. There is nothing I can do but COPE. This is 2004... not 1504. Things have to evolve into something and we are the only ones to evolve it. We can sit here and rant about injustice til the cows come home, but we need to be worrying about staying ahead in other things. Deal with these pains and then let the wounds heal. I embrace all aspects of me, and love the fact that I can represent the "crossroads". I am happy to be mixed and I indulge in the history of ALL of my cultures, though many here may make me feel bad about that and would coerce me to choose a side.

As far as KNOWING if we are African still, Puerto Ricans have a very high sense of culture. Of COURSE we do, we are proud of our rhythms which have their roots in Bomba and Plena... slave music. Check out the 2-hour Banco Popular documentary "Raíces". Although it is in Spanish, it captures our African-ness the best way I have seen so far. If you cannot understand the dialogue, let the music speak to your soul. In the last 100 years, colonialism by an imposing alien culture (the U.S.) has threatened to take away our own identity. We continually resist this. If it were NOT for a heightened sense of culture, then this would not be possible. We would have become a state a LOOOONG time ago. We KNOW what we are comprised of and uphold all of it. While there ARE some unconcscious self-haters lurking around, we are nevertheless proud of our mixture. Groups such as the "Young Lords Party" of the 1960's could not apply their Americanized tactics of dealing with the people in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rican (islander) experience is different from here. Even civil rights groups who visited the island could not find a foothold. People just didn't think that way. Puerto Rico did not evolve in the same way as the United States did. Yes, slavery was a reality until 1873, but it was not segregated as in the American South. Puerto Ricans are too mixed to even consider that option. Someone here posted that our not wanting to align ourselves with the "Black Struggle" meant that this was a conspiracy to keep African people apart. The only answer I have for that is that you need to come into the 21st Century. Just cause you feel that is right for YOU, does NOT make it right for US. Remember the concept of Cultural Relativism and the process of abiding by beliefs that have "ancestral authority". That statement makes it seem like we are to stupid to realize what has happened in our history. Please. I am sitting up in this forum talking with you all... so, how apart is that? I am suppostive of your causes, but don't expect me to align myself with the "hate whitey" doctrine cause I am not like that. While I understnad the grave injustices committed against us, I remain steadfast in my perception of... humans first.

I uphold the speeches of the great Dr. Pedro Albizu-Campos. He was born of a Basque Spaniard and an African-descended servant woman. Albizu understood the intricacies of what had evolved. He played the racists at their own game and made it into Harvard Law School. He was one of our brightest lights and showed us that even a "colored" person born at a destitute level could rise through what many considered one of the best of the higher academias in this country. He would have been our beacon of hope out of this colonial darkness had racist Americans not murdered him for preaching our independence. He knew how cut-throat the American government was. He understood the TRUE concept of being a Puerto Rican.

I understand how people view me in this country... I am not stupid. But, I do not have to subscribe to a hate policy in order to become accepted. I have my own terms.

Peace Brother dadachango69,


I find your comments most interesting. There is a lot of truth and understanding, in your post, but I think in a broader context "some" of your ideas are naïve and disingenuous. Since you have made reference to many things, concerning Black/Latino relations. Let me respond in general. You talk about the Puerto Rican rejection of civil right groups and differences in racial relations in Puerto Rico, as compared to the United States and then you "seem" to hold this up as an example of Puerto Rican homogeny and nondiscriminatory racial congruency. But lets look at the long history of Puerto Rico. How many dark-skinned Puerto Ricans have, historically, held positions of political power and land ownership? I assure you that throughout the Latino world where there was heavy miscegenation between Spaniard, Africano and Indio blood, Castilian physiognomy (non-African or Indian features) still controls the Latino legacy of politics, business, opportunity and beauty. Even in music, where Africans/Afro-Latinos were the progenitors, Latin America is exporting and promoting commercially viable “white-looking” Latinos to rest of the world as the best and most creative of the Latino/salsa musical genre. Afro-Latinos (especially those who look African) have no better break than, Black people in any other part of the world. Matter of fact, If Black or dark-skinned Latinos are “now” receiving more visibility and position in the Latino world (excluding entertainment), it can be directly and indirectly related to the worldwide civil rights movement, spearheaded and accelerated by North American Africans (Blacks), that has removed the veil of systemic and ideological racism, no matter how subtle. Sure, American-styled Jim Crow was never successfully exported, outside of the States, but European colonization and the racism imbued in it, defiantly left its mark on the rest of the world.

At the end of Slavery in the Latin world, the descendants of slave-owners and the descendants of slaves weren’t sitting together in the plantation house pallor room drinking rum and reminiscing about the good ol’ days and plotting their brighter future.

When Puerto Ricans are classified as an “Afro-Hispanic people” in some reference books, is there any part of that term that disturbs you? And why is that some Puerto Ricans can embrace the “Hispanic” part and not the “Afro-“part? Are you going to tell me that there aren’t “some” Puerto Ricans that have a problem with admitting or embracing their African ancestry? African-Americans and Puerto Ricans have a long interwoven history together here in the U.S., We are aware of a lot of this confusion about racial identity and denial in the Afro-Latino community, not excluding our own internal-racial (color) dilemmas, but when we address this concern or make the cultural and spiritual leap and call you “brother” you look at us, as if we’re the only one with the problem.

Did you know there is an Afro-Latino political movement, that is concern about their lack of representation in leadership roles, movie roles and many other areas of higher social life of the Latin world? Don’t you recall that it was the racist comments of a school teacher in Puerto Rico, concerning the under achievements of Black’s that energized “Afroborinqueño” Arturo Schomburg’s long history of collecting and archiving the great accomplishments of Africans/African Americans, regardless of what language they spoke.

Diasporic African descendents in North America should have no need to define or redefine what is Latino, Afro-Latino or Puerto Rican, as related to “Black-ness” and “African-ness”, as this thread suggest. But I think your pseudonym “dadachango69” should imply that we (African people) all have more in common, than not.

Ashe!

Brother Sun Ship

"In a broader context "some" of your ideas are naïve and disingenuous."

My ideals are based upon how Puerto Ricans view Puerto Ricans. I know how we flow, because I happen to be one myself.



"You talk about the Puerto Rican rejection of civil right groups and differences in racial relations in Puerto Rico, as compared to the United States and then you "seem" to hold this up as an example of Puerto Rican homogeny and nondiscriminatory racial congruency. But lets look at the long history of Puerto Rico. How many dark-skinned Puerto Ricans have, historically, held positions of political power and land ownership?"

Probably not many (of WHATEVER color), since Americans have pretty much taken a hold of every aspect of our country. We owned 93% of our land before the Americans came and messed it all up with their "corporate mentality". Now it's the anti-Castro Cubans who live there among "other" absentee multi-nationals. There are also puppets of the U.S. like Rosello among may others who side with this "great white dream" the U.S. is stickin up our kazoo. But, for the most part, the struggle for Puerto Rican independence came about BECAUSE we realized we were our own people. We would have had a major political victory and a first governor with Albizu Campos... a "Black" man... but, who killed him?... AMERICANS. Our own island history which WE seek to define shows this (not the erroneous stuff people write about us on the internet or in ridiculous misinformed literature.) Unfortunately, some people have their facts twisted because they never challenged the American "status quo"... some of us know different. We are a people born from rape and slavery. When we sought our independence... the first thing on the agenda was an end to slavery because we understood what we were... a mixture of three cultures. In 1937, we marched in Ponce to commemorate the abolition of slavery and got mowed down by submachine guns on order of Gen. Blanton Winship... a racist pig from Georgia who was appointed as our leader. Every time in the 20th Century when we expressed our views on something.... some American was rushing in to shut us up. They only listen when we shoot up Congress like in the 50's. At this point, we got used to it. We subtly ignore their attitudes and go about doing WHAT WE WANNA DO. No matta how much they push statehood in our face, we band together and form solidarity against it. Puerto Ricans by nature are this way. And, as a WHOLE we detest that form of thinking and, YES, I can speak for the majority of Boricuas. I know how most of us are. While there are some idiots in the bunch who sell themselves to stupidity, the majority of us uphold ALL CULTURES that compose US... as far as AFRO- this and that... there ARE Puerto Ricans that say that. Why should we deny what is a part of us? What I am against is extreme dissection by OTHERS of OUR people. I will not love my mother any more because she looks "Black" and my father less because he looks "White". I love them both EQUALLY and move on. We, as a people, tend to not separate and hate other "so-called" races like certain extremists want us to do. Acknowledgement of the differences is great, but we are not going the route of Protestant America. Our history was going somewhere else when it was "interrupted" by the American invasion. So, now we have acquired the history of a country that doesn't really want us except when there's a war to go to. But, eventually, we will come to a conclusion that allows us to maintain our heritage as WE want to... not as Americans, and these, so-called Caribeanists, want us to. Our reality is what it is. There is nothing we can do to escape that reality. I think it's beautiful that we can call ourselves a multi-ethnic people. And, although history cannot be changed, our sensibilities towards injustices have been. When I talk about the rejection of civil rights, it did not register in Puerto Rico... punto. Do you want me to tell you it did? Civil rights didn't get a foothold in PR... and thas just about the size of it. Maybe it did with the ones on the mainland who saw it as a way to fight against the common oppressor and actually lived in the belly of the beast. I understand and respect civil rights wholeheartedly, but I cannot side with just being a "Black Nationalist". Our identity is more than just black... it is brown and white as well... we can't and won't ignore this fact. Yeah, history is messed up, but to say we are multi-cultural doesn't mean we selling out. It means we love being who we are.


"I assure you that throughout the Latino world where there was heavy miscegenation between Spaniard, Africano and Indio blood, Castilian physiognomy (non-African or Indian features) still controls the Latino legacy of politics, business, opportunity and beauty."

You don't have to "assure" me about what I already know. I am extremely knowledgeable about all aspects of Puerto Rican and Caribbean history, politics and culture. Maybe that "white" reality is on Telemundo & Univision, but go ask Mexicans and Venezuelans about that. We don't have a station... we on some music video on B.E.T. gettin exploited along with the rest of your people.



"Even in music, where Africans/Afro-Latinos were the progenitors"

This is an arrogant comment. All people have musical abilities... Africans, Taino and Spanish cultures gave rise to our blended rhythms. If you are saying this to say that we all eventually came out of Africa... I can agree with that. But, I think this statement sells out other cultures which have greatly contributed to our music. "Salsa" is amalgamated music willingly fused together by people of ALL ethnic and cultural backgrounds, unlike Rock-and-Roll which came from your music through this Elvis guy... while "Blacks" got no credit for it. "Salsa" was named such because all the rhythms blended together like a sauce.



"Latin America is exporting and promoting commercially viable “white-looking” Latinos to rest of the world as the best and most creative of the Latino/salsa musical genre."

Just cause they look "white" don't mean they ain't mixed. And I guess, to you, the Cuban-born Queen of Salsa, Celia Cruz, "sold out" cause she had a collection of "Li'l Kim" blonde wigs somewhere in her stash. There's also Rafael Hernandez outta PR... one of OUR greatest classical composers, Cortijo, Ruth Fernandez, Roberto Roena, Bobby Capo, etc. Maybe they're not IMPORTED or CELEBRATED in your wonderfully segregated country, but they the sh*t in ours and amongst other like-minded Latino nations. We also export "black-looking" people in sports... Roberto Clemente, Alfredo Escalera, Victor Pellot, Felix Trinidad, "Chegui" Torres, Bernie Williams... did they go out there and preach "Black Power"? No, they represented their own countries to the fullest... upholding our FLAG and culture WAY HIGH and got mad respect from all of us spics. If white folks don't respect them, thas on them.... but ALL OF PUERTO RICO DID... believe that. Rafael Cordero and Jose Campeche were the greatest Puerto Rican painters of all time... BLACK. Julia DeBurgos... Rene Marques.... poets... BLACK... Myriam Colon... Lauren Velez... actresses... BLACK... The Cepeda family... BLACK... Miss World 1975 from PR... BLACK. The list is too many to mention. This stuff ain't on the internet, brah... it's in us and on our island. We celebrate our people regardless of what color they are. Don't judge the rest of the world by a United States template... no two cultures see things the same. Furthermore, we don't control the media . (In fact, there isn't MUCH that we actually control.) Our national music is Bomba and Plena. Ask any Boricua who is proud to be one and they will tell you the same. And, if they say, "No, I ain't Black... I'm Puerto Rican"... be intelligent enough to think that maybe they see "Black" as a culture... not a "race".



"Afro-Latinos (especially those who look African) have no better break than, Black people in any other part of the world. Matter of fact, If Black or dark-skinned Latinos are “now” receiving more visibility and position in the Latino world (excluding entertainment), it can be directly and indirectly related to the worldwide civil rights movement, spearheaded and accelerated by North American Africans (Blacks), that has removed the veil of systemic and ideological racism, no matter how subtle."

Thanks so much for your efforts in the struggle for humanity. Rosa Parks deserves the honor among many other historical figures who gave their lives for us to walk through the front door..



"Sure, American-styled Jim Crow was never successfully exported, outside of the States, but European colonization and the racism imbued in it, defiantly left its mark on the rest of the world."

And, as a people with our own ways of dealing with day-to-day issues, this is one we never let get out of hand. We started out like "mutts". So, this is pretty much nil. Maybe America has fought long and hard to have us revert into the slave-master mentality of Spanish peninsulares, but our own biologically-instilled sensibilities have kept our culture away from that. Our biggest issues was keeping the Americans from destroying our culture.



"At the end of Slavery in the Latin world, the descendants of slave-owners and the descendants of slaves weren’t sitting together in the plantation house pallor room drinking rum and reminiscing about the good ol’ days and plotting their brighter future."

Some places were like that, not all. History is different from place to place. Cuba tends to have that seperation more because it was a massive plantation economy at one point in history. Though from having been there many times and knowing many of the people there, it seems as if they are taking great strides in eliminating that. They have a long way to go as far as representation and some Europeans who invest there tend to favor the whiter looking people, but hopefully it will become more even-handed. I can agree with their socialist ideals. I see where they are headed with it. Cubans are very adamant about upholding their Cuban-ness... that don't mean racism still doesn't exist. On an island that is overwhemingly of African descent, a black religion... SANTERIA is the major religion accepted there... it would behoove them to make their representation known in politics as well... like wise for PR. We have to struggle against removing the negative issues iposed by an alien culture and allow our own to surface. Cuba and PR are only two places... there are many other distinct cultures in the Caribbean. History is peculiar in each place.



"When Puerto Ricans are classified as an “Afro-Hispanic people” in some reference books, is there any part of that term that disturbs you?"

It shouldn't. It means we are proud of our African-ness. We know that history has favored some folks and not others, but we are here to let the world know that we are what we are and thas about the size of it. I have been called a "spic" a "nig--" and it STILL don't change who or what I am. It makes me even MORE proud to be all that.



"And why is that some Puerto Ricans can embrace the “Hispanic” part and not the “Afro-“part?"

Why do some African-Americans call themselves "Black", "African", "Nubian", "Michael Jackson" or "whatever"? People define themselves however they feel. It's an unalienable human right.



"Are you going to tell me that there aren’t “some” Puerto Ricans that have a problem with admitting or embracing their African ancestry?"

some do... others don't... the majority who understand they have been colonized know their roots... although when we do this some Americans use to accuse us of being "wannabes"... this has caused us to be more into our own history... letting it absolve US and what we ARE.



"African-Americans and Puerto Ricans have a long interwoven history together here in the U.S."

True... economically we have been in the same neighborhoods and perceived to be everything from "strange blacks" to "marvelous mutts" and "dirty white trash".



"We are aware of a lot of this confusion about racial identity and denial in the Afro-Latino community, not excluding our own internal-racial (color) dilemmas, but when we address this concern or make the cultural and spiritual leap and call you “brother” you look at us, as if we’re the only one with the problem."

Destee calls me that and I think nothing of it. I am a brother...BROTHER... lol There are still many peculiarities which we don't learn EVEN IF we are in close proximity to each other. I always feel like I am at home in the presence of African-Americans and likewise, you would feel comfortable in mine.



"Did you know there is an Afro-Latino political movement, that is concern about their lack of representation in leadership roles, movie roles and many other areas of higher social life of the Latin world?"

Yes, I am part of one.



"Don’t you recall that it was the racist comments of a school teacher in Puerto Rico, concerning the under achievements of Black’s that energized “Afroborinqueño” Arturo Schomburg’s long history of collecting and archiving the great accomplishments of Africans/African Americans, regardless of what language they spoke."

Did you ever think to ask yourself whether the teacher was Puerto Rican or not? You "seem" so well-versed on my history. In the late 1800's the only teachers were "peninsulares" from SPAIN, the very ones Puerto Ricans hated and sought to get rid of. There were no real institutions in Puerto Rico for learning.... most of us were illiterate and out in a field somewhere. The Spanish liked it this way. After that the only teachers came with the American Invasion. Futhermore, that story which has become so popular among black bibliophiles was NEVER substantiated as fact. It may have been based on ill-treatment he received in San Juan... a major city where Spaniards were present. My grandma produced a documentary on him actually... which got her a couple of Emmys (the one that Wesley Snipes narrated)... I'll ask her about it tho I am pretty sure of what I have studied.



"Diasporic African descendents in North America should have no need to define or redefine what is Latino, Afro-Latino or Puerto Rican, as related to “Black-ness” and “African-ness”, as this thread suggest. But I think your pseudonym “dadachango69” should imply that we (African people) all have more in common, than not."

Alas, nothing is stopping us from sharing with you on many points... but we can redefine ourselves... because our history in Puerto Rico is too intertwined to separate these days... plus we can do whatever suits our community best. The culture is just ONE culture... made up of many parts... and we love all of it. My screen name means that I follow a specific belief, but I can turn around and call myself somethin like "Juracan" but it doesn't mean I believe myself to be a pure Taino... or call myself "Papi69" and suddenly I am pure Spanish. I am all of the above. That's my choice... my view... my life. I love all those things I am made up of. A screen name doesn't have to revolve around any specific thing. Does "SunShip" mean you are Egyptian? The bottom line is that if you wanna celebrate Blackness... be what you wanna be... more power to you. I am not trying to twist your arm to follow any particular way. I am present at all those rallies, too. But, my identity is PUERTO RICAN. The thread is about us and our "African-ness. So, I speak for the Puerto Rican contingent. I read almost ALL of these interesting comments which I find most amusing. It showed how people outside of us... perceive US. I just threw my nickle in.