Hi Guys, I know I've been quite...I've been finishing my studies but its all systems go..

Here in South Africa, amongst the black people, there's been an age old divison between two schools of thought. One is that once you become a born again christian and believe in God, you should let go of ancestral worship as it goes against scripture and the bible states that you may not have other mediums..

Now, to describe briefly my experiences, I grew up in a deeply traditional yet equally religious family. Us black people here believe that u need to slaughter a goat or a sheep for your ancestors to say thank u when you've had a series of good things happen, to ask as well, we would maybe slaughter a white chicken just to ask for protection and we'll light up traditional incense and brew traditional beer and and call other family to be with us...We also believe in going to the grave of the dead family member to talk to them and ask for protection before a trip or before undertaking something big...like a business. The thinking basically is that our ancestors are mediums that can talk to God for us. In the Zulu culture that I'm from in paticular, we believe that there has always been a bigger and greater spiritual being and we called him "umvelinqanga"-don't even try to pronounce that..you might bite your tongue...but u can always make a quick call to South Africa if u really want to know. anyway, like I was saying..this has been the way for us to express ourselves and we believed in the guidance of the elders and the "healers", using traditional medicne, because we usually use leaves and barks and roots to make aloe-which has great health and healing powers, infact most medicne has a herbal variant that has always been there in Africa...

But, when the white man came, he introduced the concept of "God", infact, Shaka, once asked the missionaries who constantly came to teach him about God in his Royal kraal, if this "God" could help him become a stronger king! But, as the christianity spread, ancestral worship has significantly decreased.

I grew up in a home where both cultures where both were practised...but I'm very confused about the whole thing and I 'm sometimes involved in arguments and debates with other friends about the whole thing...any thoughts..

I have always believed that your ancestors are like your representatives, or spokespersons, in the other world. They help you here by speaking for you there, but they have to answer to someone a lot more powerful than they.

I wholeheartedly believe in God and his angels, heaven and hell, but not as they've been taught by Christians. I believe that to remain spiritual is the true religion. All organized religions are quick to tell you which religion is right or wrong, that their's is the best. Each religion has its faults. They've all participated in murdering their brothers. Christians have killed Muslims, Muslims have killed Jews, etc., but the holy scriptures say that "thou shalt not kill", for any reason. Therefore I remain humbly spiritual. I follow no set religion. I just live my life the way that I believe is the right way.

thank you my brother, for sharing your insight on the matter. It really is important, I think to discuss these matters from time to time. In a matter of speaking I suppose even in places like America where the debate is not that huge, there are a lot of African in America who could share from first hand experience..

I really appreciate what I could call your mature view on religion..I did organised religion most if not all of my life..MY father was a prominent Reverend and we had to go to church all the time and i loved it...then in 98' I joined the Church of Christ and I was a "disciple" for almost four years until I left to discover my "spirituality"...I believe in the concept of discipleship-that we should help others and be helped into attaining a closer relationship with God...but I won't go back to that "organised religion" system anymore....God is absolut-not determined or possessed by any group of people hence I don't believe the church of christ anymore when they claim they are the onlly true christian-don't the Jehovah's witnesses and the likes also think so?

lo'

its sounds as if you are postulating that Africans dont believe in God. which is of course not true, as we taught the concept to white folks and not the other way around. In addition I have read interviews and text written by African shaman/priests/medicinemen - whatever term you are more comfortable with - and they of course agree that there is a God, just by other names.

Of course Ancestral worship remains paramount to our spiritual and physical health and represents the cornerstone of ALL spiritual life in indigneous religion. It also forms the basis for community ethics, but it is not in lieu, but in ADDITION to a belief in God.

(I have been a devotee of the west african indigenous faith of Orisa for over 10 years by the way.)

Well, I think u misread a lot of what i said here, or alternatively u understood only what u wanted to understand. what I was saying (not that I in the least bit think that I need to defend, but maybe more explain what i'm writing), i'm definately not postulating that Africans do not believe in God, if anything we knew God even before we knew of the word "God"...in my culture, umvelinqanga is the spiritual being that we prayed to and we knew guided us in everything way before we put the name "God". Read the Post again, I'm probing questions, not making statements here... In west Africa, by the way, africans dont have an inter-continental universal worship system, there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, so, while i'm not familiar with your western african Orisa worship, i know for a fact that while some people can embrace both christian and ancestral worship, some have difficulty doing...personally for me ( I had hoped to leave myself out of the picture because i wanted a neautral debating forum but since i ther's some misunderstanding, let me just say, that I am an African and I believe, in fact not just believe, i live, and breathe and have my existance in God, since I am in his image, i believe he is everything I am...as I am everything (or at least try everyday) to be what he desires me to be... So, back to your first line, u were saying that I'm postulating what?....

I find this discussion very intriguing, especially the spiritual division that you talked about. Is the division between the two schools of thought separated along age or generations? What I'm trying to ask is, does more of the elders remain stronger on the ancestral worship than the younger generations? I can understand where the younger generation might be more accepting of the christianity concept, but I find it difficult to envision elders relinquishing "umvelinqanga" (I won't even try to pronounce it :D ), the belief system they have embraced for many generations.

As I read your post I was thinking of a similar situation here in America when Islam was first introduced, (or when I first heard about it), it created a similar division. The christians I knew, especially the elders, didn't want to hear it! They held strong in their belief in God and denounced Allah, however the younger generation were more curious and accepting.

You said you are somewhat confused about whole thing...I can relate, because I was confused also. I was raised a christian and even though I had thousands of question within my own faith, I was reluctant to even be open-minded to another religion.

Very interesting parallels. Thanks for sharing

ifasehun, My brother, i think u missed the point here...to say I'm postulating that Africans don't believe in God, is a total lack of understanding of what i'm trying to say...if anything, Africans have been believing in God way before the concept of "God" as understood in christian terms was brought to Africa. In my culture Zulu, we've had "umvelinqange" from way, way before the the first recorded existance of the Zulus. He's always been a supernatural being, a guiding force, someone that we prayed to and when missionaries came to South Africa and started preaching about God, we understood what they were talking about because we understood him in terms of "umvelinqange".... I was not so much trying to make a statement as opposed to sparking up debate about such issues because (while I don't have to defend what I say-I feel that maybe seeing that u misunderstood I should expand), there are hundreds of thousands of different tribes throughout the vast continent that believe in different forms of ancestral worship and so, while i may not be familiar with your Orisa indigenous faith from West Africa (simply because I think u know that because i'm from Africa doesn't mean I know everyone from every tribe) but I do know that while some people are comfortable embracing the God/ancestors in their worships, I know for a FACT that there are many people who've turned their backs on ancestral worship when they became Christian/born-again. So what I'm asking, is what do people think? is there space for both paradigms to be embraced or should we chose? what about u out there what do u do, how u find the balance... As for me, though as the author i'd wished to keep my personal beliefs out of it...well, I believe in God, whole heartedly, in the book of ACTS it says that in him we live and breathe and have our being (para-phrased) and in God I have my future and faith and hope... I am a believer through and through... and u were saying i'm Postulating what..my brotha? I think u should re-read the post and understand what I was attempting to spark up in a debate form..

lo'

HI,
I'M SORRY, BUT I NEED SOME ADVICE ON THIS TOPIC ALSO. PLEASE EXCUSE FOR DIVERTING THE ORIGINAL TOPIC SOMEWHAT?

I AM A WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN FEMALE AND AM ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED WITH A COLOURED SOUTH AFRICAN MALE. MY "PROBLEM" IS THAT THIS GUY WAS BROUGHT UP BY A ZULU BLACK FAMILY. (HIS MOTHER IS BLACK, FATHER WHITE).

HE IS STILL TAKING PART IN ANCESTRAL WORSHIP, BUT HAVE HIDDEN THIS FROM ME FOR 3 YEARS. I WAS REALLY SHOCKED WHEN I DISCOVERED THIS, PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT BEING WHITE, ANCESTRAL WORSHIP IS LIKE SOMETHING STRAIGHT FROM HELL!

I REALLY LOVE THIS MAN AND NEED TO UNDERSTAND ALL THE TRADITIONS AND CUSTOMS AND CEREMONIES RELATED TO THIS?

ANY SUGGESTIONS?

MAGDEL

Hi Magdel, Guess what???? I'm also from South Africa!!! so, if u would like to talk to me sometime, pvt me or e-mail me and we could call each other and if u in Jhb somewhere we could meet for coffee or something and talk..don't worry, u aren't diverting from the subject, its vital that we address all issues surrounding the topic..i'll be more than happy to talk to u about it...


But my initial thoughts would be to tell him how u felt about him concealing the information from him, make him understand that the relationship should have been based on honesty etc..

secondly, u must look at yourself and your view of things, and try and see where the two of u could reach a middle ground. U must remember that u met him practising these rituals and surely he shouldn't have to stop because he's dating a white woman! I don't know why he hid this from u, but maybe he feared what I'm sensing is a distorted view on ancestral worship on your part (..."ANCESTRAL WORSHIP IS LIKE SOMETHING STRAIGHT FROM HELL!) unquote.. why do u feel like its straight from hell, what do u associate it with? witchcraft or something? these are the questions u need to ask yourself and then work them out and see what u are willing to relinquish-in terms of your point of view, and figure out what's important, the relationship with this man, or your problem with his ancestral worship...but please, e-mail me and i would love to get together...good luck.

lo'

mkhaya lo' - you wrote , Well, I think u misread a lot of what i said here, or alternatively u understood only what u wanted to understand. (which by the way is a little harsh as it implies that i was trying to misconstrue you words as opposed to having just read them wrong.)

okay, i re-read your original comments, then i read your second set of comments. i guess i know understand what you want me to understand.

but as for your third round of comments which are again directed at me -- i havent a clue why you presented them. i only posted once before today, so you may be answering someone else's question, not mine. that is unless you wrote two seperate sets of replies to my one post for good measure.

in any case, i worship the Orisa and Egun (ancestors) exclusively. I am aware that others choose to do both or to practice some european religion and from time to time come back to traditional beliefs to solve particular problems, but i can't for the life of me imagine why...

Perhaps having been born into christianity and seeing what i was missing in traditional religion and the lapses in foundation in christianity i just dont understand why anybody would walk towards a religion that passes to us during slavery as a means of ruining and eradicating our own cultural and spiritual foundation.

Classic Account of Slave Master Willie Lynch: The man that convinced white slaveowners and missionaries to share Christianity with Africans (circa 1712)
http://www.reynos.com/ComicsTRIP/14-Brainwashed/willie-lynch1.htm
http://www.ybmb.com/slave_control_1712.html (mirror site)

Modern Classroom Curriculum that makes reference to Bible as tool of Control:
http://www.uark.edu/depts/arkhist/home/AHSI/2001/madelyn.htm

knowing what i do, and presenting these links only as a small representation of that truth, why would i need to strike balance between my ancestral traditions and the traditions of my ancestors enemies?

You mention the book of Acts - in him we live and breathe and have our being . I would never use the bible to describe or explain my relationship with God. absolutely never.

my dear brotha ifasehun, firstly i must apologise for posting twice, my computer crashed after my first reply and i thought it had been unsaved so i re-wrote without realising i was doing it for the second time-please dont feel like i was attacking u in anyway for posting twice. secondly i must apologise if u feel i am intolerant of different views because i am not. i fully welcome all sorts views and opinions on the things i post. i really encourage you to continue posting here to give perspective on things that i would love to learn about. I do not "want" u to understand my perspective on things. otherwise what i would be doing here would be propaganda and it is not as i dont expect anybody to live by it or even acknowledge it-its just an open sharing forum. but understand that i will defend my views as they do form a cornerstone of my being.

i appreciate your beliefs-appreciate mine. i actually even appreciate that you would never use the bible to describe your spiritual relationship with your most high-i do. and u know, that's fine! or least it should be because we should never be intolerant of each other's beliefs. teach me more... i dont want to get into a space where we are attacking each other's beliefs because they offend or dont co-relate with what we believe in. i do not, for instance, believe God is a white man's God. I do believe that he was unfairly stolen by the white man (metaphorically speaking) even here in south africa, they used God to justify apartheid and the segregation of races. they even said it was bibilical. that's just one of many things....but much, much, much love my brotha.

please believe me on that..

lo'

Good response mkhaya lo'.

:heart:

thanks NNQueen. I love these "debates" as i feel like I grow in so many ways..

lo'

I'm ashamed to say my brother Baba Ahmed that i didnt even know that Credo Mutwa had changed his name!! I work for a radio station that has very bad relations with him-simply because its a white radio station and in one of the interviews he did with a presenter it didnt go to well... but still its no excuse..thank you for the information

lo'

Hmmmm.....maybe the ancestors can speak to destee on our behalf on that matter baba!! lol...email destee or just navigate your way around. I always just clique the close button on my top right..good luck..

lo'

Brother Baba Ahmed ... yes, the login / logout option is only on the Forum Home Page, bottom right hand corner. I'll work on getting it in more places.

Sister Mkhaya lo' ... do you know we have voice chat, where you can come in and talk to us, we hear your voice, you hear ours, we can ask each other questions and things such as that ... do you know we have that here? We do. You can access the voice chat by visiting the following address: http://www.*************/chat ... the reason i'm mentioning this is because i think it would be really wonderful to have you host a chat ... where the Family could come together and ask you all about Africa, since you are there everyday !!!! :) We could hear your beautiful accent and feel that much closer to our precious Africa, thanks to you!!! Most chats are usually an hour long, but we're flexible in that regard. Of course you can host the chat at your convenience and talk about whatever you have scheduled to share with us regarding Africa, as well as take questions.

If you're interested, i'd need you to come into voice chat just to verify that your speakers and microphone work. We can then schedule your chat at a time that is convenient for you.

Our Very Own Voice Chat ~~~~> www.*************/chat

My Dear Sister, please let me know what you think.

:heart:

Destee

i too am looking for further perspective on Mutwa. If this is the same individual, I have read books by him.

you see..i am a medium of sort, and have talked to s. african ancestoral spirits before...(i guess this shouldnt sound so odd considering the thread, but i feel a little exposed) ..but mutwa's book was very different some regards to the traditional beliefs that i hold, so i want to make sure they are truly s. african in nature, and not his personal interpetation.

also anyone can write a book and make claims. how is he regarded in s. africa by the traditional community? is he who he says he is?
http://www.credomutwa.co.za/

mkhaya lo' all is well. i did take your repost as "internet fire" - i think too my first post may have been misinterpeted as well. i was "asking" if you were suggesting a lack of belief in God, as I *thought* that is what I was reading.

so i guess we both interpeted the other, no harm - no foul.

i also apologize as i get skiddish when people go from talking about something like Ancestor worship to christianity. It is normally in a condescending tone or it on its way there, so i "fire up" pretty quickly in preparation. lol And unfortunately even on afrocentric/pan-african message boards this happens - which is very odd to me that ancestral ways could be treated as such in afrocentric boards. oh well....

but yes, we can mutually discuss such things. baba ahmed is correct in that both way do walk side by side in many people's lives. it can happen and work - i have some issues as to execution and necessicity for that matter, but this is a reality.

i do favor honoring the ancestors' old ways primarily, as both tribute to their validity and as a mark of confidence - as i do believe they are all that is necessary to elevate one's spirit.

how active are you in traditional rites at home? do you occasionally see priests/healers? or attend rituals or ceremonies that less festive and more spiritual of nature?

i think its time i visited the david icke site again and read it more carefully. its a funny thing ill be honest with u. I find myself completely westernised and somehow not so deeply entrenched in the issues of my own land. As a journalist I will do all that i can to research and find out more about vusamazulu and his disspearance-interesting to note, i got a hold of his number last week to call him in connection with a story i was doing, and his p.a told me that he had gone to see a Kinga Sabuza in the northern province and he isnt really talking to anybody...i've been prompted a lot here to look into myself again and re-examine the way that i've been living because like i said-despite the fact that i live in Africa, i'm living in a surburbia cluster house, i'm working in an evnvironment that mostly white-and male unfortunately, and i've been made to believe that ancestral worship is evil. My sister and a huge part of my family is deeply christian and so dont practise ancestral worship at all as it clashes with God...so here i am, trying to question but what did we believe in before the concept of God as we knew him surfaced...and Im so grateful to everybody who's written in and showed that its not really evil. That i am african and should embrace my ways and cultures...but to be honest i'm scared. scared to answer to others about what i believe. I come to the forum here everyday and i read the exciting and wonderful things that Baba Ahmed, ifasehun and everybody else has to say and i realise u guys are probably more in touch with Africa than i am. That saddens me so much. I am so bombard with the American/European way of living that i find myself lost trying to re-trace my african roots in this age of information-the global village etc... be kind to me..i'm feeling a bit emotional about this whole issue right now.

sister mkhaya lo' you are sharing deep emotions with us, so i will share too.

i was very scared to begin my journey in traditional african spirituality. i was brought up in a home that was very much involved in community activism. we have always reached out to work and support our fellow black person. but we were brought up christian, so there was no hint of african spirituality or religions going on!

i am originally from Louisiana, which is a good thing..well, and a bad thing. here in the U.S. Louisiana is a deep south state that is FULL of old slave memories and home to many believers in Hoodoo and Voodoo. Especially some of the older folks that are now dieing off. But here, like in Africa - white people made a bad name for our traditions, so there is a simultaneous fear of anything remotely african. but in the true spirit of God - Louisiana is a place brewing over with Spirits - Ancestors, manifestations of God - EVERYWHERE. its is a beautiful place that is as much alive in daylight with humans as it is at midnight when the spiritual world seems to wake up.

as a child i was always in touch with my spiritual side. and i manifested it where i could - i was a christian so i took it very seriously. i was a sunday school teacher when i still a child! i read, a memorized the scripture! so understand i have a real perspective of exp. but i always felt unsettled on two notes: that my ancestory was from africa, but i knew nothing of it and knowing that the white man originally took that away from me bothered me terribly. so when i was about 16 i began to reach out for african traditions that could carry my love for God further, but within my own people's ways.

but i was terrified. terrified of losing jesus's grace. lol terrified of what my family would say. just plain TERRIFIED. i am not like other people i dont "pretend" to have been all in control.

and my family did give me a hard way to go, but i kept emphasizing that i still believed in God and i kept emphasizing that practicing from an african perspective made me feel CLOSER to God. (and to this day I swear on everything I love that is true. no religion i have ever practiced has made me feel closer to God and his creation than practicing through my ancestral path.)

so in time they had to say, "well, at least he believes in God. at least he has a relationship." and while they still have their reservations - they cant doubt the results. my life is renewed! i have a wife and a son. i have had career successes. most importantly i have been more positive and grounded emotionally and spiritually.

but the road was still rough. and it is for most of us that face our own loved one refusal to honor the traditional ways. but they love us - so generally with gentle treatement and sharing NOT to convince them to do the same, but sharing why its good for YOU, they come around to be much more supportive. but its a thing of patience.

but you are where we are. i know every feeling you are having.

i have had loved one and former friends condemn me to Hell or talk behind my back the minute i leave the room, not knowing that i heard them criticizing my choices. and it hurt deeply. but that is a mirror of THEIR spiritual development NOT yours.

IF you spirit seems to be calling you to explore - HONOR your spirit and EXPLORE. the advantage to being in africa is that you have MORE choices than us. so take your time. if you pray on it, you will find that God will support you. and that if your inner spirit is calling you to investigate..you will find that GOD is the voice behind it.

this is the message that i ulitimately passed on to my family, so that they could understand and not hurt my passage - GOD has put me on this path. GOD endorses this path. its a message that had to be repeated consistently, but they hear me now.

good luck in retracing your steps to whatever degree your spirit leds you. how do they say in the movies? Godspeed! lol..i like that saying!

anyway..i have cried many a day literally over wanting to know more, and i have prayed many a day too on that very topic. and in time things come. and the picture becomes fuller.

i wish more people would pray on finding themselves culturally and spiritually. we pray for everything else - jobs, cars, spouses, vacations, mercy from our bosses. why not pray for a connection with your heritage?

Love, Ifasehun
:)

i agree with everything Baba has said and recommended. Seeking out a diviner would an excellent idea. Excellent. He will tell you all the underlieing issues surrounding the topic, what you might do to be most successfully and what struggles you will encounter along the way.

Ifasehun and Mkhaya lo' -

Thank you for sharing your stories. This is my first time here and this is the first place that I was compelled to come to post. I too am searching. I am on a path to spiritual growth. I've been praying, meditating, journaling, and reading and I find that I am getting closer to God. At times I can feel God within me. In forming a closer relationship with God, I am also learning who I am and about my history. I have been reading about slavery and I am waiting on books about African religions. I feel in my Spirit that I will be separated from Christianity. As I learn more about its affects on our people, I find that this is not what I want to practice. That which I have heard about African spirtuality appeals to me. I feel like in learning about my history, I'm filling in the blanks.

I too am afraid. I am afraid that there will be friends and family that will try and block my spirtual progress because they are afraid and they don't understand. I am afraid of taking that leap, so to speak. I just need to keep praying about it and keep learning.

Ifasehun- How did you first start practicing Orisa? How did you know it was time? Where did you start in your practices? How did you find other believers in your community? What were the steps that you took to release Christianity and accept Orisa? I would greatly appreciate any guidance you could give me.

Peace

Brothers and Sisters,
Greetings. It is a blessing for me to be able to communicate with you through this internet. I feel very blessed to be on the receiving end of such knowledge and to have the opportunity to perform such pow wow. I very humbly come to you. I very recently was reintroduced to the message board system. I believe that I participated in the board that Sister Destee previously had up, maybe some years ago. As Sapphdia relayed how (s)he was drawn to Sister Mkhaya lo' ('s) post on the tension between and the issues relating to christian worship and ancestral worship, this morning, so was i.
I would just like to share a few things. My mind is fairly adrift, as i have just read through the majority of posts on this thread...hopefully you will be able to relate to the concepts that i share in relation to this issue.
As a child, I was born into a family that strongly believed in learning African history, and we basically gave praise to the Most High through various African beliefs that were passed down to our particular African American community. I grew from this a lot. I was not necessarily familiarized with specific ancestral rites or founded in certain spiritual beliefs, but the importance of the strength between family members and holding on to giving praise to our ancestors was central.
As i grew, I was introduced to Islam. I devoted myself to Allah, and gave my efforts to understand the teachings as much as I was able. My spiritual studies grew more personal as i got older, the road that i was made to walk, pushed me away from being able to study and commune in a mosque or church. I also studied Christianity, most humble studies I must add. As much as i could understand and relate to my life, i opened up and searched deeper within the words and myself.
Over the past few years, I have been going through it in every way that the being is manifested. There have been so many ups and downs that i can not relate to failures and successes of being tested. Mentally and spiritually, I have seriously been thru it. Breakdowns, seizures, visions, voices...i'm really opening up here more readily than the therapist my mother asked me to see. Please bear with me...
My heritage is very important to me. Presently, i believe that i have been "stuck" in my situation for serious reasons of growth. Africa is all that i am. Dealing with many of the obscenities of this western world, hurts me. Many of my beliefs have grown, or been slightly altered through time and tribulations. I hold tightly to all of the roots that i know, African, Native American, Puerto Rican...and it is very painful to know that even to this day, i am seperated from both my families within these cultures, as well as our actual beliefs.

Through meditation, prayer, and life's sacrifices, I give myself to the Most High. Currently, i am studying Rastafarianism in particular. It's grounds of battling oppression and dealing actively with this modern Babylon is close to my heart. I respect all religions/beliefs and i am interested in knowing more of my ancestors. I pray these doors will open in time. It's difficult to communicate fully the way i go about with my belief. I stay active in the spirit world, mainly because in the area i currently reside, i am very close to nature. My ancestors are of utmost importance to me, i ask daily for guidance and understanding and to further develop my relationship with the Most High.

Thank you for your patience...

Alafia and Ayibobo,

It's amazing how Spirit moves! My story is similar to Baba Ifasehun. I'm from Louisiana, as well - the BIBLE BELT part. I grew up up in a rural traditional Baptist Church. People thought I would one day be a minister because I studied the bible intensely at a young age. When I was 10, I was on programs at various church for devotion.

My awakening was inspired when I started attending an Afrikan history study group and learned about the dubious nature of Christianity. The members would say " they took our culture, our names, our God and our religion." After that, I began a quest to learn (re-member) our religion(s). None of my elders in the study group knew anything, basically they were spouting out rhetoric. As a matter of fact, many were still Christian. My question "what did my ancestors believe in?"

However, I had a drive to know and learn. I went, first, to the NOI. I still felt incomplete. Next, it was Orthodox Islam. Still no give. Afterwards, in like succession - Rastafari, Hebrew-Israelite, Kemetic and just solitary spiritual. In 1997, I attended this conference in Dallas called the Third Eye Conference and there I experienced a traditional Afrikan libation ceremony conducted by the local egbe egungun (ancestral society). This ceremony moved me. I met a practitioner of Vodou there as well. We talked, I forgot how it started, but she said something, "the ancestors willed for us to meet and talk, everything happens for a reason."

Intrigued by these events, I went home and searched the Internet for information on Ifa, Yoruba and everything orisa. Finally, with a little knowledge and my curiosity heighten, I called the number of the egbe. I told the Baba of the egbe about my interest and he said, "Well, this is your birthright - whether you choose it or not - it is yours and no one can take it from you." I felt home.

The Spirit moves y'all. Your ancestors will come in your dreams, telling you that you were born into "Ifa, Akan, Vodou or whatever". The spirits, whether they be orisa, abosom, vodou, nkisi or whatever will come and give you signs and information. The power of your ancestral lineage is stronger than any other thing in terms of your spirituality. It's just will you acknowledge the signs and the calling or not? My ancestors have been calling me and have directed me and guided. I give thanks. Ase!

Blackbird

Peace be unto you,
Let me share my beliefs and some of my experiences relative to how your sharing touched me.
High respect and love for ancestors and family ties are of utmost importance for the health of human beings. Human beings have a higher life than just the physical life here on the earth and that life continues after their physical death. i do not however believe in the living communicating with the dead or the dead interceding in the affairs of the living or vice versa.
i am not very knowledgeable concerning what has come to be called traditional Afican worship and beliefs but i belive the truth of all worship and beliefs are the same for all people and the deviations and variations are cultural and man made innovations.
i was raised in a Christian family but raised to be a seeker.
As a seeker i finally left organized religion and called myself agnostic.
In 1977 after consiceralble study and at the age of 30 i fully accepted Al-Islam as my religion. i have been a Muslim since that time and i understand a Muslim to be one who surrenders to the Will of the Creator.
Essentially though i see my whole life of seeking and searching as one unbroken rope. I have also come to view all religion as one with the variations and diviations as having been introduced as a result of the confused ideas of humans over time and space.
For me, there is only one True G-d who is the Creator of everything that exists and one True Religion, Surrender to the Will of the One True Creator.

my two cents....

1. christianity is missionary in nature. it goes out to acquire while one is born into an african religion. three of christianity's major acquisition strategies in africa are 1) the propaganda that the african religions and gods are not true 2) that believing in an african god is like believing in the devil 3) (in the olden days) only christians deserved to go to school and hospitals. one could only go to school or be treated in an hospital if one was catholic or anglican which forced many into christianity.

2. with 1) above, europeans were able to dilute the african culture in search away as to pave way for its total extinction.

now, there is nothing fundamentally wrong in an african religion. in fact our religions are very rich in culture. christianity on the other hand teaches that you must believe in god "who will deliver you from the devil and evil". the truth is that you are also being told, by this sentence implied, to believe in the duality of god, that is both god and devil. the reason being that if your belief in god is dependant upon his act of delivering you from the devil, you must therefore believe in the devil and his evil before you believe on god to save you. that we call devil worshiping.

so while christians worship the devil. africans do not for africans though believe in the existence of evil spirits but do not see these as some kind of anti-god.

your fears therefore stem from years of indroctination by the christian missionary forces.

go back to the roots.

undefined The matters on hand in this string are common to any people being exposed to ideas of the divine reality that are at variance to their own. In this environment traditional African religiosity is hinged with the tenants of Christianity, with the range of comments on what's come of this interaction indicated in the various participants comments. You can take the same topic to the Hinduu, the Moslem, in fact, any system of faith people embrace who've been challenged by another system of conceptualization where God is concerned. In essence, the issue is our tendencies to cling to our traditions in light of a notion that discounts what we've come to know and be convinced.

I am Christian. I am a thinking man nor do I perceive Christianity necessitates one submit to a range of thought that falls short in comprehending and addressing others perceptions and concerns. I' ve noted some posts in this string making comment about Christian doctrine. The writers' intent may have been to convey practical reason, however it's obvious they haven't a good grasp on what they seek to speak. In that regard would be a long drawn out debate that would probably yield no meaningful result. It seems all mankind is locked into the unforgiving embrace of traditions and truth is subject to much conjecture.

As far as ancestor worship is concerned, being African American I cannot relate to the passion of the practice in context of my own cultural experience. I realize however, as a tradition, the practice is vested. It's been in place for so long there are no questions raised as to the efficacy of its claims. I realize, the same is true for a lot of what you see in conventional forms of Christianity. There's much to criticizze of what's been made of what was revealed in Christ, so, as far as casting stones I will not engage in that method of attempting to get my point across. I will merely say, without intending to take this discussion into a round of recrimminations, that there are aspects to the revelation of Jesus Christ that are hidden to those who are blinded by what men have done with the faith.

Any institution that men have a part in adminisrating will have failings. The embarrassing aspects of Christianity are not of the tenants of Christ and other biblical doctrine, but of men's handling what they've received. So often I've noted critics attempt to wear and tear at Christianity as a woeful belief system when, in fact, it offers profound insights into a number of areas. I can offer no support for ancestor worship. I do believe we should honor our family's name and remember those who've charted a course prior to our being manifest in the world. To worship one's ancestors, if that is a component of ancestor acknowledging is a very big problem in my thinking. Our ancestors are no more than predecessors of ourselves. I would not have my great grandchildren and those proceeding generations to make more of me than I actually am. Every one who has ever lived have endured the hard knocks of life and made some kind of way in its respective realms of experience. I have relatives who've passed on whose memories I cherish. There are a cast of characters in that lot representing a variety of aspects of life, not all are honorable, nevertheless I cherish their memories. As to their standing in the realm in which they find themselves presently I do not sense they have any precedence as we don't in living. We are all subject to a determinate power, mankind has no say in what temperature the sun will impose on any given day nor what amount of snow will fall. Those loved ones who've transitioned into the astral dimension, or whatever you choose to call it, are sojourners as we are on earth. They are still subject to authorities and are submitting to the laws that govern the realm in which they find themselves. They have no gained any stature before God prior to their transitioning into the realm of the spirit. Therefore, worshipping and making an ado of our ancestors as arbiters of our needs in their present state is unproductive in my thought. Nevertheless, this system of tradition is well inculcated among African peoples as worshipping cattle is to the Hinduu oriented mind. I would consider it no more than a tradition however, I do not perceive there'd be any loss to abandoning the practice in anyone's living. At the same time, put into a perspective I perceive to be realistic, acknowledging our departed loved ones would be fine. As an extension of the honor we should submit to our elders and other human beings, I do not have anything to detract from keeping our forefather's names in good standing in our hearts and minds.

I've had nothing of substance to share of Christianity in my comment. I would merely say in its regard that the report of Jesus' resurrection is a notion not to be casually disregarded. Did the event really occur? There are many aspects to draw upon that endorse the claim that there was something very unsual about this man who's commonly referred to as the Christ. I perceive he was who scripture claims, which is in no small measure something each man has to come to terms with according to his own light. Nevertheless, in this forum I take no restraint in recommending all men take care in how they consider this subject. There may be far more involved than our biases will allow us to consider. Sometimes, due to tradition or what has transpired in history men will form resentments. In turn these are heaped upon what may well be true while we convince ourselves we are justified in rejecting. Be careful what you reject is my recommendation as I've been careful in attempting to render a balanced perspective on ancestor worshipping.

Astro.....

Just for clarification, is not worshipping Jesus, ancestral worship? Let us be real my friend, paying homage and praying to Jesus is worshipping a human being that once walked this earth. So call eating of his blood and body, crying out his name, singing his praises to me is ancestral worship. YOu worship and baptize yourself with water, libation, for a man to invoke his great spirit so that that spirit may surround you with its blessings. Well that is exactly what AFrakan people with their great dieties.

Has anyone ever seen Jesus? Yet, song after song, sermon after sermon preaches that Jesus is my best friend, don't know what i would do without him. Ancestor worship to me! If he is the son of God and God is your father than he is you brother. YOu are calling on your brother for his blessings. Ancestal worship.

I do not see the difference. As matter of fact if you look at the Christian, Muslim, Hindu,Judism belief systems they all are derivatives from the Ancient Afrakan Spiritual systems. Libations, ressurection, washing before prayer, mother and son (Auset and Horus), psalms (Aknatons writings), prostration , wearing white, 10 commandments(42 confessions of Ma'at), getting the spirit and yes, ancestral worship all were created and practiced thousands of years before the birth of Jesus.

Why do we believe in anything hook, line and sinker without doing the research of where this belief system may have come from? If Black people were the first people on earth, wouldn't it make sense that civilization and spiritual systems originated in Afraka as well? Voodum, Yuroba, Santeria, are also derivitives of Ancient Kemet also. It's called continuity.

We get here in amerikkka, and we continue the practice of ancestral worship in our churches, we just don't know it. Nothing has really changed. Accept most of our people think of a white man when they think of Jesus, how sad) I do not have to go through the plethera of things we do in church that are AFrakan. Or do I?

I am not saying that you do not know all these things, however, I could not tell by what you said that you did. Forgive me if I am wrong.

to say that worshipping Jesus is ancestral worship would be suspect to say the least. especially when you can't place african intent on european practice. that was not their intent. besides ancestral worship includes:

possession by ancestral spirits
divination with ancestral spirits
providing sacrifice to ancestral spirits

none of which happens in christianity.

so no....jesus and ancestral worship are mutually exclusive.

As I said, all religions are derivatives of the first civilization known to man and that is the civilization that is recorded through words and pictures, of Ancient Kash (Kush) Nubia, Kemet. Though you may not think that that was the white man's intentions to worship ancestors, that is exactly what they did. But don't take my word for it, read "Stolen Legacy" by George James, Martin Bernal's "Black Athena" and Richard Poe "Black Spark White Fire" (last two are europeans) all who have extensive research on how europeans copied the spirtual/philisophical systems of our ancestors.

Alafia and Ayibobo,

It's amazing how Spirit moves! My story is similar to Baba Ifasehun. I'm from Louisiana, as well - the BIBLE BELT part. I grew up up in a rural traditional Baptist Church. People thought I would one day be a minister because I studied the bible intensely at a young age. When I was 10, I was on programs at various church for devotion.

My awakening was inspired when I started attending an Afrikan history study group and learned about the dubious nature of Christianity. The members would say " they took our culture, our names, our God and our religion." After that, I began a quest to learn (re-member) our religion(s). None of my elders in the study group knew anything, basically they were spouting out rhetoric. As a matter of fact, many were still Christian. My question "what did my ancestors believe in?"

However, I had a drive to know and learn. I went, first, to the NOI. I still felt incomplete. Next, it was Orthodox Islam. Still no give. Afterwards, in like succession - Rastafari, Hebrew-Israelite, Kemetic and just solitary spiritual. In 1997, I attended this conference in Dallas called the Third Eye Conference and there I experienced a traditional Afrikan libation ceremony conducted by the local egbe egungun (ancestral society). This ceremony moved me. I met a practitioner of Vodou there as well. We talked, I forgot how it started, but she said something, "the ancestors willed for us to meet and talk, everything happens for a reason."

Intrigued by these events, I went home and searched the Internet for information on Ifa, Yoruba and everything orisa. Finally, with a little knowledge and my curiosity heighten, I called the number of the egbe. I told the Baba of the egbe about my interest and he said, "Well, this is your birthright - whether you choose it or not - it is yours and no one can take it from you." I felt home.

The Spirit moves y'all. Your ancestors will come in your dreams, telling you that you were born into "Ifa, Akan, Vodou or whatever". The spirits, whether they be orisa, abosom, vodou, nkisi or whatever will come and give you signs and information. The power of your ancestral lineage is stronger than any other thing in terms of your spirituality. It's just will you acknowledge the signs and the calling or not? My ancestors have been calling me and have directed me and guided. I give thanks. Ase!

Blackbird

Brother Blackbird this is the one thing I appreciate most from your posts. I have come to conclusion that at this time some folks are just disconnected from this "ancestral lineage" and have been "uprooted" in more ways than one. Thanks again for your in-sight.

Hi Guys, I know I've been quite...I've been finishing my studies but its all systems go..

Here in South Africa, amongst the black people, there's been an age old divison between two schools of thought. One is that once you become a born again christian and believe in God, you should let go of ancestral worship as it goes against scripture and the bible states that you may not have other mediums..

Now, to describe briefly my experiences, I grew up in a deeply traditional yet equally religious family. Us black people here believe that u need to slaughter a goat or a sheep for your ancestors to say thank u when you've had a series of good things happen, to ask as well, we would maybe slaughter a white chicken just to ask for protection and we'll light up traditional incense and brew traditional beer and and call other family to be with us...We also believe in going to the grave of the dead family member to talk to them and ask for protection before a trip or before undertaking something big...like a business. The thinking basically is that our ancestors are mediums that can talk to God for us. In the Zulu culture that I'm from in paticular, we believe that there has always been a bigger and greater spiritual being and we called him "umvelinqanga"-don't even try to pronounce that..you might bite your tongue...but u can always make a quick call to South Africa if u really want to know. anyway, like I was saying..this has been the way for us to express ourselves and we believed in the guidance of the elders and the "healers", using traditional medicne, because we usually use leaves and barks and roots to make aloe-which has great health and healing powers, infact most medicne has a herbal variant that has always been there in Africa...

But, when the white man came, he introduced the concept of "God", infact, Shaka, once asked the missionaries who constantly came to teach him about God in his Royal kraal, if this "God" could help him become a stronger king! But, as the christianity spread, ancestral worship has significantly decreased.

I grew up in a home where both cultures where both were practised...but I'm very confused about the whole thing and I 'm sometimes involved in arguments and debates with other friends about the whole thing...any thoughts..


I really like this topic

I have a real problem with a people such as Africans, black people or what have you being told to totally surrender all that they know, in order to accept something else totally foreign to them. I see no reason why there cannot be a compromise. If I am to introduce something to someone that they like and in return they introduce something to me that I like, maybe, we as individuals will make a choice that we want to integrate each others new ideas into what we already have, but not totally get rid of what we already had. Anything to do with ones way of life should be a conscious choice, not a forced choice through force or manipulation.


Ridding ones self completely of what one is used to in order to take on someone else ideas about how things should be is not a good thing.


I am curious to know however, when slaughtering the goats and chickens, what is done to the Goats and chickens once slaughtered? Do the people where you are from eat them? Or do the goats and chickens just stay in the place where they were slaughtered, only for flies to make use of. By the way, I am not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buhdist, Hinduist etc. I am just me doing my best to live the right way.


Sister Astrologer4U

I really like this topic

I have a real problem with a people such as Africans, black people or what have you being told to totally surrender all that they know, in order to accept something else totally foreign to them. I see no reason why there cannot be a compromise. If I am to introduce something to someone that they like and in return they introduce something to me that I like, maybe, we as individuals will make a choice that we want to integrate each others new ideas into what we already have, but not totally get rid of what we already had. Anything to do with ones way of life should be a conscious choice, not a forced choice through force or manipulation.


Ridding ones self completely of what one is used to in order to take on someone else ideas about how things should be is not a good thing.




I am curious to know however, when slaughtering the goats and chickens, what is done to the Goats and chickens once slaughtered? Do the people where you are from eat them? Or do the goats and chickens just stay in the place where they were slaughtered, only for flies to make use of. By the way, I am not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buhdist, Hinduist etc. I am just me doing my best to live the right way.


Sister Astrologer4U


In my culture(yoruba) the animals are cooked and distributed amongst everyone in the community to eat.

In my culture(yoruba) the animals are cooked and distributed amongst everyone in the community to eat.

I would think so, but I had to ask. I know you are aware of how in America, the media makes born Africans look, as well as you are probably aware of how they make African Americans look to born Africans in the media. The media makes all blacks look like savages. I know it is not true that black people are savages but I just wanted that question of what happens to the animals after slaughter to be answered in this forum. That way, when someone googles the words
(African, Animal, Sacrafice, Rituals Goats, Chickens) they will be directed here to this site where they can learn the truth.

To me, if the animals are eaten after slaughter what is the big deal with sacraficing the animals to the ancestors...that wasn't really a question.

It is more of a ritualistic symbolic sacrafice, correct? Now that was a question.

If the ritual was not performed, yet the goat or chicken was slaughtered and cooked to be eaten for dinner, the only thing missing would be the ritual, Correct? That was a question also.

I think slautering animals as a symbolic gesture and then eating them is more productive than the Catholics who drink wine, which is symbolic to the blood of Christ and breaking the bread to eat, which is symbolic to the body of Christ. All of the previous sounds like symbolic cannibalism to me.



Sister Astrologer4U

I would think so, but I had to ask. I know you are aware of how in America, the media makes born Africans look, as well as you are probably aware of how they make African Americans look to born Africans in the media. The media makes all blacks look like savages. I know it is not true that black people are savages but I just wanted that question of what happens to the animals after slaughter to be answered in this forum. That way, when someone googles the words
(African, Animal, Sacrafice, Rituals Goats, Chickens) they will be directed here to this site where they can learn the truth.

To me, if the animals are eaten after slaughter what is the big deal with sacraficing the animals to the ancestors...that wasn't really a question.

It is more of a ritualistic symbolic sacrafice, correct? Now that was a question.

If the ritual was not performed, yet the goat or chicken was slaughtered and cooked to be eaten for dinner, the only thing missing would be the ritual, Correct? That was a question also.

I think slautering animals as a symbolic gesture and then eating them is more productive than the Catholics who drink wine, which is symbolic to the blood of Christ and breaking the bread to eat, which is symbolic to the body of Christ. All of the previous sounds like symbolic cannibalism to me.



Sister Astrologer4U


Sister

Have you ever heard about the Doctrine of transubstantiation from the RCC?

Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: 'Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

They believe that once a priest blesses the bread and wine it actually changes into the blood and body of "Christ"


Peace and Power
~Qwamii~

I would think so, but I had to ask. I know you are aware of how in America, the media makes born Africans look, as well as you are probably aware of how they make African Americans look to born Africans in the media. The media makes all blacks look like savages. I know it is not true that black people are savages but I just wanted that question of what happens to the animals after slaughter to be answered in this forum. That way, when someone googles the words
(African, Animal, Sacrafice, Rituals Goats, Chickens) they will be directed here to this site where they can learn the truth.

To me, if the animals are eaten after slaughter what is the big deal with sacraficing the animals to the ancestors...that wasn't really a question.

It is more of a ritualistic symbolic sacrafice, correct? Now that was a question.



If the ritual was not performed, yet the goat or chicken was slaughtered and cooked to be eaten for dinner, the only thing missing would be the ritual, Correct? That was a question also.

I think slautering animals as a symbolic gesture and then eating them is more productive than the Catholics who drink wine, which is symbolic to the blood of Christ and breaking the bread to eat, which is symbolic to the body of Christ. All of the previous sounds like symbolic cannibalism to me.



Sister Astrologer4U


I'm not really interested in educating whites or any other races who have the misconception about Africans being savages because as i see it, it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Trust me Sis, white people know the truth, they are just trying to keep the truth from you.


Bro Sekhemu, and i think Black bird can expound more on ancestral sacrifices as they are babalawos, but from what i can remember growing up, emphasis is placed on the intent and the ritual (remember karma set in motion?)of your offerings that is: you buy food/goods with intent of offering it to the ancestors, not to have it for dinner. The essence of the food coupled with your intentions is what gains favors with the gods. The food been eaten by everyone else afterward symbolizes your joy in knowing you've gain favors with the gods.

I'm not really interested in educating whites or any other races who have the misconception about Africans being savages because as i see it, it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Trust me Sis, white people know the truth, they are just trying to keep the truth from you.

Sister Amantt, I was reffering to black people who do not know better. They need to know the truth. I know this subject is probably a sensitive one for you and you don't want to tolerate ignorance from anyone for that matter but please try to understand, black people in this case, African Americans, they need to hear the truth straight from the horses mouth. What they do with the truth is up to them but at least they will know the truth.

Sister

Have you ever heard about the Doctrine of transubstantiation from the RCC?

Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: 'Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

They believe that once a priest blesses the bread and wine it actually changes into the blood and body of "Christ"


Peace and Power
~Qwamii~


Yes, I am aware of this. I went to Catholic school and was raised Catholic, not a very good experience. I know now that the Catholic institution was sought out due to a secret society that hid behind Catholosism and that secret society in my opinion made the priest in no way capable of blessing bread, wine or anything for that matter.