One does not easily go against the grain in the black community without risking serious repercussions and penalties, including being excommunicated from blackness.

Within the African-American community, often ones 'blackness' is not based on ones blood connections but on ones adherence to popular group thought. This form of tribalism turns the African-American community into a monolithic presence that thwarts progress by painting individuals into a 'black' corner where only opinions supportive of the status quo are allowed.

Curiously, it is a form of Orwellian thought policing that comes to the surface after the fact when those who have stepped across the undrawn lines of the "black monolith" are publicly castigated for having the nerve to think differently. These unwritten rules, which are subject to change without notice, can best be described as popular ideas of "how to be black." Unfortunately, there is no written rulebook and those who break these unwritten rules are often excommunicated from "blackness" without prior notice.

What it means is that you or I cannot speak our minds without the fear of being disparaged, not because we are right, but because we had the nerve to say something that goes against the party line of the "black monolith." The power of groupthink is not to be underestimated. For instance, only in the black community do people shudder when something terrible happens and say silently to themselves, "I hope it wasn't a black man."

When the bombing in Oklahoma City occurred, white people weren't whispering to themselves about the skin color of the perpetrator; they had a variety of opinion and they voiced them-right and wrong. However, in the black community there was an underlying fear that it would be a "black man" and that some how all black people would suffer as a result.

That blacks have been unfairly cast as villains is not the issue. The issue is that as long as we cast our selves as a monolithic presence we will bring the same judgment upon the group rather than alleviating such direct focus. That there is strength in numbers is certainly true to a degree, but there is no strength in a wrong answer and no amount of addition will ever change it.

Today it seems that blackness is more a series popular stances espoused by popular figures rather than a state of mind or of being. This form of tribalism does not allow us to apply fair critique to our own no matter, how insipid, vapid or just plain stupid some of the things are they do. It is in our interest to criticize and question those who claim to represent us as well as those policies and processes that affect us.

A commonness of skin color often leads us to make assumptions about the black community that are not only incorrect but help to perpetuate stereotypes within the black community itself. Religion and politics are two topics of conversation that most avoid, but in this case, they are appropriate to use as examples. To many in the African American community, a black Republican seems to be an oxymoron, for it is assumed that all African Americans are Democrats. Of course, it is not true, but the fact remains that a black Republican is thought of as an aberration in the African American community, and is in fact often treated as a traitor to the community. The same can be said of atheists and agnostics within the black community.

Often, the culture of "blackness" does not reward individualism outside "accepted" group norms, as witnessed by the sometimes acrimonious debate between black scholars regarding affirmative action. Blacks taking an anti-affirmative action stand are regularly labeled as Uncle Toms, Oreos and traitors without a thorough and reasoned investigation.

Race and racism turn any discussion of stereotypes into a sensitive subject in the African American community. However, many African Americans would be surprised to know that they use many of the same stereotypes to characterize each other that would be considered offensive if used by whites. The use of these stereotypes by African Americans is used in an almost unconscious manner to establish standards of behavior for other African Americans.

At first glance this setting of standards seems relatively harmless, but when it is considered that to hold individuals to a single standard restricts all and may be even more harmful, for it makes artificial barriers with the sole criterion based on looking the same and thus reinforces the "black monolith."

That any black man or woman is able to think beyond the moment, articulate complex ideas beyond sports and sex comes as a surprise to many Americans, especially African Americans. Many people of African descent can't dance, sing or play dominos either and they may also be affluent, Republican and have never tasted a chittlin' in their life. Neither are all black folks afraid of the dark, criminally oriented or Baptist.

For everything, there is a season. There is a time when black people will need to be united as one to fend off oppression. There is a time when if we are not united, then being divided, we will fall. But, there is also a time we every African American must stand as an individual.

It is past time for African Americans to allow themselves to be judged solely as a monolithic presence, where the action of one is interpreted across the group, where everyone is painted with the same brush and where having a different opinion is looked upon as blasphemy and treason. It is time we celebrated our own diversity in the black community and use it to build better bridges to prosperity, faster highways to freedom and sturdy thoroughfares to self-reliance.

For everything, there is a season and the season for breaking free of the "black monolith is now. Fight the Power!

There is no need for closed doors or behind the scenes,what needs to be said, needs to be said. As I pointed out, there is a time for solidarity. However, when an individual is not free to speak their mind because of internal repercussions, then there is no freedom at all.

When another black man or woman can shout down another black man or woman by playing the internal "race" card, that is not discussion, that is censorship. Whether or not those views are worthy of hearing is another matter. Because we have the right to free speech does not mean we have the right to insist that our views be respected.

However, as intellectual beings it is important to examine the evidence and make pronouncements on that and that alone and avoid ad hominem attacks simply because we disagree. In the simplest sense, if Nichole Brown had been black and O. J.unknown, there probably wouldn't have been a trial, but just because he is O.J. Simpson there was bound to be some action taken against him and that is the price of celebrity and especially black celebrity.

Although the ideas of individuality and oneness are not a contradiction, they are separate and distinct entities with each having their own dynamic. What is good for the group is not always good for the one and vice versa, so in effect to say they are comparable is to toss a red herring into the fray.

However, when it all comes down, the simple fact of the matter is people have differing opinions and ideas and we should have respect for that, and before we castigate anyone we should be sure that we are not railing against them because they went against perceived protocols but, instead, because their arguments are inadequate. That is all.

Justice Thomas and I are definitely not on the same page. However, my feelings about Mr. Thomas have little to do with his politics, but more to do with his body of work in the law. I cannot kick him out the black community because I don't particularly like his reading of the law, but, on the other hand I have every right to dissect his decisions and challenge them in fact.

By the way, I spotted several typos in my piece and a missed negation that may have changed the meaning of an entire sentence. We may actually be in agreement. I wont repost with the correction, but you can probably see it.

This is good stuff we got going here. It is pleasing and interesting to stir the pot and get someone to come up and stir it with me. As you can probably tell, I enjoy this stuff. I consider it good clean fun. Hopefully, between this start we can raise a few more opinions from the others, both pro and con. That's why I write this stuff. If no one reacts, then I have failed. Let's keep this one going and bring some more in with us.

Peace/Ra

You have made my point for me. Although, I have no particular like for Justice Thomas to resort to taking him out of the race or calling him a name is unfair to him, as I know nothing about him personally to make such a call. However, his work is available to any who want to look at it and it is on that basis I fervently disagree with Justice Thomas. I disagree because his work has indicated that he is a hypocrite, that is not the shiniest apple in the barrel and that he has a short sense of African American history. He has not escaped my barbs in the past and he will not in the future, barring some unforeseen change. In my opinion, he was unqualified for the job. If Bush wanted a black conservative for that position, there were at least seven others he could have chosen from who are all brighter, have a good sense of history and are stellar lawyers, but they also would have been their own person and I suspect that is why they weren't chosen. Anyhow, although I personally don't care for Justice Thomas (I admit to calling him Uncle Thomas) from an intellectual standpoint I must admit to his right to be whom he chooses to be, but that doesn't mean that I have to respect his opinion and of course the inverse applies to me.

Keep it coming,

Ra

Peace and Love Amun-Ra,

Thanks for bringing me here. I wasn't sure if this was up for discussion. But I see that there is a chance to discuss this things you laid out. I'll be back, I just starting reading (I had to print it out to absorb it properly). I do see some points but also some things I don't necessarily agree with. :)

Thanks again, I 've been looking for some interesting conversation, as of late.

I have a different spin on this.

you say it is not easy to go against the grain in the black community. I say it is harder to go against the grain of the real power in this country. This statement leads me in several areas.

I don't not necessarily get look upon as being different by black folx, we do have commonalities. I also consider myself somewhat of an nonconformist. but those rules are still part of the greater society. i find more opposition and excommunication for the white society at large. as we do.

going agains the grain of black community. it seems that those people separated themselves from us. i'm speaking of the "clarences". these are the ones who try to distance themselves from our common history. even they received help and seem to think that because they made it, they shouldn't help the fellow brothers and sisters. we become the "them" to them first. some believing that affirmative and such didn't help them, those programs rose the ashes from civil rights movements. I said ashes because the civil rights movement did die off, hopefully the flames are still kindling. but when we do divide ourselves we become unless powerful agains the power structure. those republicans and other "excomunicated/self-excommunicated" black folx only still get what white folx will allow. if somethings racial was to happen they would be running back to the black community, looking for a lawsuit. but while things are golden for them, it seems that those of us further behind are not a part of them.

you mentioned the oklahoma bombing. i didn't think for a minute, "i hope it wasn't a black person". those aren't the kinds of crimes we commit. both white folx and black folx are "monolithic" when it comes to crimes. we, on a whole commit certain crimes and whites the same. interesting enough, the white people were thinking and have me thinking, it was probably some foreigners, and iraqi or arabians or someone like that. then to come to find out it was a white man. we also know that if you heard the ray Johnson got shot in uptown, that it was most likely a black man. i think the media helps to shape our thinking, dictates and the way it is portrayed. those sterotypes you say we also place upon ourselves. since blacks are mostly only seen or heard when it comes to crime, sports, entertainment is usually the only time we receive footage on TV. so if it ain't sports or entertainment, then we know the other. it is also unfortunate that now two of those ingredients are being mixed. sports and crime, murder more specifically. :( actually, it has also become an entertainment, in this day and age of technology. we are constantly put on display.

when other black people distance themselves from us, not wanting to be like us, or like them, he loses himself. he is no longer part of our community and his thoughts and action don't benefit us all as a whole. his takes his stuff and moves as far as possible. becoming white like them, or at least him think so. he agrees with the way of the majority white politicians, colleagues, and thinking about himself only. in the end, things will not be right until we do our own parts individually to bring something to the table collectively.

you say break the black monolith. i'm not saying we should all think alike, do the same things, dress alike and such, that is all superficial. we should be free to be individuals but also think spiritually.

You are correct. The hole point of this exercise is that black people are diverse and in many areas and therefore, there is no pat rules of blackness. True, a commonality exists and that part is inescapable, but it is also true that those who do not buy into main streme thinking in the black community are ostracized.

Sure the white community does the same thing, but I am not concerned about the white community and their hangups because I am not familiar enough with them to speak about them except in broad generalities, but in the black community we have a double standard of behavior.

Recently, Will Smith, one of my favorite people came out and criticized (I can't remember the excat incident) another balck person for their role in a particular event that he thought was an embarassment to black people. It was just a little more than a few onths later when Will was on the other side of that criticism as Spike Lee lambasted Smith for doing "The Legend of Bagger Vance."

I like Spike Lee too, but who appointed he or Will Smith as the Negro Thoght Police? Personally, I don't know if the Bagger Vance Role was a good for Will Smith, but neither am I sure than "She's Got to Have It" was a good movie for African American women. My point is, when it comes to personal behavior, I have no right to set standards for anyone other than myself.

Perhaps, it is because I am peeved about stereotypes. I hate stereotypes all there is usually some element of truth in the perception although not the reality. Anyway, it makes a good discussion point but I doubt if I or anyone else will ever change it as you said it is on both sides of the fence.

Ra

But I totally agree with your last statement.

I'll be back. I keep losing my connection.

Peace and Love!


Until next time...

Thandi

I guess it peeves me that myself or anyone would need to adhere to any established guidelines of commmunity behavior. Of course, I personally see the need for solidarity, but there is a point when break out of the box thinking is required. I realize that pioneers or leaders are always the first to be brutalized. I still recall that Martin, Malcolm, Stokely and many others were not welcome with their ideas, but after awhile the more conservative generation relented and saw the way. I am thinking that we have another generation that has been used to the old ways and is not ready to change. Don't know, but it seems like it. Who knows? I guess I'm tired of the older generation and I'm looking for the young lions to come out with something new. By the way, I am part of that old generation and I think we are out of date. Or, I'm just ready for change.

Ra

Peace and Love Ra,

I'm ready for change too. I don't know what you mean about being oldschool. I'm in my middle 30s. So I pretty much missed the "revolution". However, i feel it has died down, or let's hope just kindling. Actually I will say, it's kindling.

I'm not into marching and chanting. I want us to start making some progress and not just standing, marching and not going anywhere. Besides, I'm in MN and I'm not acclimated to this ****. In fact, it's snowing and cold today, halfway through April (shame ain't it).

I am looking for more people who want to rebuild the look of the revolution and get the ball rolling. I'm not looking for someone to come and be the one and only leader, but to give guidance. I looking for people who can, want,and will contribute for the whole of us all, not just themselves.

Where are all my black people, calling all black people...

Thanks for the invite Thandiwe, where's the convo?

Okay, i know you are someone i invited, but who? I was expecting you all to come with your eb usernames.

Where is the discussion, well that why you've been asked here...;)

I'm sure Amun-Ra wouldn't mind where you started. I started here because he linked me to this thread.

Amun-Ra,

In your opening statement about going against the grain of GROUP THINK and the code of the BLACK MONOLITH, you give me great sanity and peace. I have always gone against the grain and believed in individualism.

an exiled dictator or a "car" salesman type?

ding dong ding IIIIII ringit!

I told Amun Ra, that i thought you would be the first to appear. I would have won that bet. Welcome and nice to see you here. Jump right on in. I kinda thought you would feel his vibe. and guess what, he's in your neighborhood.

he also welcomes your emails, comments and such. check his profile. he says he always answers his emails and questions directed to him. So far, he ain't lied.

i'm gonna check out his book too. i like the title, "until it ropes like okra".

look around, contribute, and hang around a while...

I have honestly gotten to a point in my life where GROUPTHINK and a lot of other things I deem as being of monolithical is a pervasive pyschological disease that plagues those categorized as AFRICAN AMERICAN. From the outside looking in AFRICAN AMERICANS are taxed heavily on the notion. Gangsters for entertainment at every oppurtune time of the hour broadcasting a criminality, anger and constipated gangsta snarls to the world 24-7.

Being a monolith is celebrated within the AFRICAN AMERICAN CULTURE. Why ask for more? I refuse it and live my life the way I want to. Just why do we have to stick together for anyway? To do the latest dance together? Nike? FUBU? For international trade? Building subdivisions for any willing home owner? Forming transnational media corporations?

Yes I want out. I just want to live within my means and enjoy life. Its gets taxing as wellnot being a member of the hamster farmisms thats going on thats with AMERICAN DREAMS and BLACKNESS.

I keep finding myself exiled.

Thanks again for inviting me THANDIWE. Amun-Ra nice topic!

There is a certain pleasure in going against the grain epecially when you know that it needs to happen. Going with the flow all of the time is a good way is a good way to go over the falls when you should have been rowing against the current.

Status quo is OK--sometimes. I am a firm believer that if it ain't broke don't fix it. However, I also believe just because it ain't broke doesn't mean its working right and in that case, not only do we need to break it, more than likely we need to demolish it, pick up the good pieces, throw out the bad one and start again.

Amun-Ra

Amun-Ra, you have me jumping up and down in my cubie.

"Thought Police" I call the members of that group the AFRICAN AMERICAN CULTURAL POLICE.

In similar tones. It gets creepy to me when certain months and holidays come around and certain songs are sung like "We shall overcome." When? Are we there yet? Is there a segment of the population in search of a messiah? A crutch? Is this the dreamy mountain top?

And just where does this power come from? Is it implied and reinforced through social notions and graces? TRAP
I wanna escape!

If power is something one holds over another, charges interest and add in a profit to offset the cost of achieving it then I dont wont it.

(actually this type of thinking puts me in conflict at times)

No one knows who the powers that be until they land on your front porch and then every body and they daddy knows

Amun-Ra

Land? Newspaper? Social orders? Media edited remixes?

People say we need unity, people say we need diversity? We need balance! and we need to be able to stand up and critique our "leadership", our "policies" and each other openly and with the idea that we could be wrong, not simply entitled to our "opinions". We need to be more informed about what is going on in our lives, our world.

kemetstry,

From Clarence Thomas to Cash Money MILLIONARES. They are who they are from what their experiences and aspirations lead them too.

Devoid yourself of the monolith. One way of living is not THE WAY. This is my truth and it sets me free.

yes, I think we need some unity, even you seek with those you have connected with and grown to care about over the net. you have said this before, why do you feel that unity is not important? or am I mistaken?

also, when you say diversity. diversity within our community or inclusive of the united states and world?

i have been attending training and seminars. numerous..."rolleyes". what I am seeing is that diversity is being used to hoodwink people. I went to one seminar and was immediately pissed off the first few minutes. the literature they were distributing was obviously made by white people. it pointed out the the US is becoming more diverse, more people of color and how are workforce is going to resemble this. I had to ask the facilator what color were the people at the top. you see, throughout this seminar they are highlighting that everyone has been discriminated against, based on sex, size, accents, lack of accents, going to another country, etc. I saw this as a way of ignorning the prejudices that black people experience.

example: a woman says she is down in texas and trying to buy a stamp at a family store. she says the lady behind the counter ignores her and seems as if she doesn't understand the northerner's speech. she goes outside, changes into another short and best southern accent. she got the stamp...I told her that some stores I still may not get a stamp and that some I know not to even venture into.

here a myth that they printed along with some others:

"white people aren't diverse". that is a myth the literature states. whites just don't go around claiming their whiteness like other minority groups do.

of course, i pointed out that I didn't have to claim it either, I couldn't hide my blackness.

okay back to diversity. if you are talking about in our community. of course that is needed. we need to pool are gifts, talents, knowledge, experience and yes we need it from all areas. I think that we should be independent thinkers but with thoughts us as a whole (black folx).

we need balance, amongst ourselves, we need to understand our own diversity and our own unity. In other words, we need to widen the criteria for what is deemed acceptibly black, we need to get to the idea of a well defined common goal(s),

we need to stop saying the same **** (we need more entrepreneurs, that kind of ****) until that **** is qualified.

i.e:
You hear time and time again this bull**** about , we need to suppot black business. That is an unqualified statement, because black businesses ******* us over is no better for us than white businesses ******* over is it? Then to qualify the statement we should say that we need to support black businesess that pay equitable wages and in turn support the community (through wages everything else is bull****). That is a qualified statment, but you never hear it being qualified.
In the end we need balance through information.

NO doubt, you do need a plan. However, while our mindset is still like theirs then we won't get ahead...

what are some of the reasons for black charging higher prices? limited resources, lack of coalition, looking out for themselves.

are they provided a service to us or servicing themselves?

so, instead of stirring the pot, add some Wisdomseed. What can you do, and each of us for that matter to come and move together. instead of further apart on issues that are important to us.

I've asked you this before, and it knows it's a hard question to answer, so the movement is still in limbo...

Do you mean me personally? Well I do it all the time, I challenge people to qualify what they are talking about. If I knew of a black business worthy of support, I would scream it from the mountaintop.

I would easily pay higher prices if I thought the scarifice worthy

what else need to be done. what else can you do, going beyond patronizing a worthy black business?

and what is a worthy black business?

how do we form these?

why don't we already have them?

The Jews, Indians etc. are also free to speak and don't fall into lock step with each other as witnessed by the latest elections in Israel where each candidate castigated the other as "anti-semitic" which is almost unbelieveable. Further those who wanted peace, where thought traitors while thjose who wanted to contunie hostilities were considered uninformed and hostile to the Jewish State.

In India there is no difference. Rival political groups are killing each other in the name of "correctness". Solidarity is at best illusory. United fronts are often rag tag caolitions that will shatter at the mere hint of political or personal one-upsmanship.

Unfortunately, we are speaking of human beings and when it comes to human beings, too many things can influence the brew, including greed, personal power, lust and all the other human foilbles that make life so difficult to live even without natural disasters, death and disease.

What we hope for is that on matter that count we can at least have a majority force and even that will be split by who get the credit, the power, etc. It may sound cynical, but to think less of it is to be politcally naive to the use of power.


Ra

The vote is never taken, we are positioned by people deemed leaders by people who are in direct opposition to our own well being.

We need to openly and freely, in and out side of our communities be as oppenly oppsed to our "leadership" as we may want to be. A large part of the problem is the damned secret critique laws that deem we can have no opposition or diversity among ourselves.

If you ever read a black publication, have you noticed in the letter to the editiors, there is nothing but kudos? WTF? As they can bar no opposition they control our voice. White people control our voice enough don't you think. Someone may have a workable plan opposed by those in power and that plan, able to benefit the masses is withheld in favor of a plan to further empower those already entrenched in power. Unable to take open critical looks at leadership and our community does not serve us at all, it works against us. If we truly beleive in freedom, we must allow for us to be free. amongst ourselves. How can we beg from others, what we would deny ourselves?

It is a matter of principles, not personalities.

We are back to my original thought regarding the black monolith. To indicate that we must argue within our own community acknowledges that it exists or that we need to be concerned about it or risk being classified as Uncle Toms, Oreos and house ******s. However, the truth of the matter is that the black community has never been monolithic. We have appeared to come together for the greater good from time to time as witnessed by historic marches and protests. But, what of those who stayed home. Are they "down" with the rest? Does their silence indicate agreement? Or, are they part of another reality?

Just as this page represents a host of ideas, opinions and thoughts, so has the African American community. It has long been considered a cardinal sin to air our dirty laundry in public, but that laundry is now common knowledge. Integration took care of that and the black monolithic community along with it. When we all suffered about the same we all thought about the same (about). WIth integration people have moved on, moved up, moved out, moved in and just plain moved. The variety of thought in the African American community is now so varied that from a perspective of 30 years ago it would be hard to imagine that this is the same community and the simple fact is--it isn't.

Any comparison of 1960 with 2001 and the condition of black people would have to be positive despite the continued problems we continue to face of which some are of our own making. This is not deny the reality that to be black in America imputes a second class label, but we have reached the point where we are fractured and splintered. With that in mind, perhaps we will throw away the last crutch and do "the right thing."

That does not mean forget our relatives and friends, what does mean is that we find a new way to help them or an old way or any way as long as we help, that is our responsibility as people and it falls to each of us as individuals to do our part, but I will not penalized if I don't agree with Bill Cosby, Spike Lee, Tony Brown, John McWhorter, Clarence Thomas, J.C. Watts or even my daddy.

Since I mentioned Bill Cosby I will use that as an example. I have been a Cosby fan for ages. I have supported him and coontinue to support most things he does, but his love child? That was wrong. It was human but it was wrong. I do not endorse it nor do I applaud it, but I forgive Bill (not that he needs my forgiveness) and I still support him. We can never be afraid to speak without support for to give in to such thinking is to give in to the tyranny of the majority, which never was an indication of correctness, but only an indication of numbers.

Rarely do these discussions take place in a vacumn as Jesse Jackson found out when he mentioned the infamous "hymie town". We are always heard. It is how we react to these public pronouncements that makes a difference. We cannot have a standard of behavior for the white community and one for the black community. Right is always right just as wrong is always wrong no matter who is the perpetrator.

None should be afraid to speak because they will be shouted down and, in fact, if any one is afraid to speak because some one may not like what they say, then their words do not deserve to be heard.

So we are back to the black monolith. Do we step outside the bounds of "black" political correctness and risk the ire of the community or do we let the chips fall where they may and let freedom have its way. Of course, we must understand that freedom also comes with responsibility and knowledge that there are always consequences and that is reality.

Ra

Where is everyone else? I like poetry and all but can we discuss some things, to try to get things done. Why are there only 4 maybe five of us talking here. Are they sitting at home while we are "marching". :) Okay, forgive me for that rant. Whew!!! Okay, peace and love! Realy!

I do get tired of us being complacent though. It seems that we all agree that something must be done. But what?!!!
I want to see some action, some mobility. As long as we keep harping on the "wrongs of others" in this case, the extramartial children of celebrities. ****, we all got sketelons, but are the children hurting us or are we hurting ourselves by looking at their laundry. We need to clean house not just one person's dirty drawers.

We lose progress if you don't look at how we can wholely help ourselves. We get enough from white folx looking down and seeing sinners (who's sins by the way). then we have to fight our brothers and sisters too.

I'm looking to fight the power!

Really I am. But not for myself, but for those who coming after me.

Let's stop pointing fingers and join hands.

{{{{Okay, that's my speech for today!!! Thandi steps from the soapbox.}}}}

Hey, How Do, Ra?! Hope you're having a good day.

Okay, how can we develop a plan, a plan they people doesn't leave some people at home? This seems to be where we keep getting stuck...

A plan must include people opting out of it or not working with it at all. There must be nothing that all of us will or will not do.

excuse my impatience, but can we get a plan started. I'm tired of waiting and hearing about all the things that stand in our way. Let's tear those down and start building.

fight the power!!!

does anyone else feel me?!!!

I am asking because I don't know what to do. I do what I can with what I have. But I know it could be used more widespread. That's the reason for my impatience. I'm tired of singing and marching and parading too. they expect me to do that in my jobs. to parade and sing and dance. I'm looking for oldheads to advise, help me, to guide and help lead the way. I'm don't want to job to be left for my son to do. I see how hard it is for me now. For us all. Is there no answer?!

I'm reaching out! Not just for my son but for all our sons and daughters. and yes i am optimistic!

It would be fine i you wnated to accomplish for the sake of you, as well.

I say this everywhere I go, so here goes.

Co-operative Industry

It would be good if we could build businesses on a more communal model. Instead of working undersomeone's employ, whther they be shareholder or sole owner, we need to be able to work for ourselves. Not as entrepreneurs, but in cooperation with each other. In other words, instead of you starting a business, it is more a thing of "we" starting a a business.
In a pure coperative industry, not that we need to accomplish a pure one, all the workers are share-holders, and they all own an equal amount of shares. All the share-holders work at the company, there are no outside shareholders who would benefir from the sweat of your brow and lay you off when earnings are lower than expected.
The board members are elected with each member representing a department of the company, so every department has equal repesentation. The board members elect a chair, so essentially the chairman of the board could be the janitor

We would have a business whose first interests were in its shareholders (nothing new about that), but all the shareholders are workers.


There are genrally three levels of pay, so everyone does nto get the same pay, but every one gets to split the profits and has a voice in deciding th future of the company.

Personally I would like to try this model with a medium sized grocery store. Everyone would have to understand P&L statements, goals , market share and the whole business of business. It is my thought that it will take some time to get to the level of understanding to be very sucessful in this because people would have to change the mindset from working for Mr. charly, to working for themselves and each other.


Now until we can get to where we have the funds and commmittment necessary to pull this off, there are somethings we should expect from black business as a result of our supporting them.
1. A decent wage. If they are not paying a decent wage to the black people workgin for them, and I do mean judge from the lowest, not the highest.

2. we need to insure that they are giving access/opportunity in their fields. we blindly support the local "black" radio stations, but they will only play songs off the playlist for the home office in NewYork city. By doing that they stifle a whole local industry. Magazines, should encourage people to write, and not just the drivel we get used to see in Essense, Ebony and Black Enterprise.

3. We hope they are giving their workforce, not only the opprotunity for education, but the impetus and money as well. And this does not need to be formalized education, but something that would look good on the resume.

4. I want to see equal opportunity in a business. Less nepotism.


Is that enough for now, or do you need more?

don't you...

You know I'm always gonna want more...

and whenyousay that i should also work for myself. unfortunately I find pleasure also in giving and thinking about others. In fact, you know i put myself in problematic situations for the sake of others. I think so many times when just think about ourselves and that's where someone else has to burden that lapse in opportunity. again, i do fight against the grain, because i don't find pleasure in just looking out for myself. call me stupid, but it is the way i am. what i am made of.

which leads to this cooperative, if i may call it. i don't see why we can't start with grocery stores, in yours words. geez, we all eat. we have a cooperative natural foods store down the street. i purchase from there frequently but i am not a member. now if i knew this was a black venture, i would have been the first to sign up.

altruistic, so if I am, what are you? :) it is what I do, DAMMIT. I know my purpose, but never at the harm of myself. I know where to drawn the lines. Stop questioning my ways and work with me. you know I'm all for upliftment and unity. even if you don't see it in this lifetime. let's at least get it started. I'll give what I got and you give what you got, and let's get together somewhere in the middle...

and NO YOU DIDN'T USE A SMILEY FACE. ;) A ROTATING ONE AT THAT!

That is not the kind of co-op I am talking about. read it over. It is a business model that we need to tak an make work for us as workers in the business, not consumers. But it will take sacrifice that our own consumerism makes it hard to make.

Maybe its time to repost the Black Panther's Ten Point Plan. Seriously, a few modifications to bring it up to date and we are on a roll. I'm surprised that no one has trotted it out in popular society and claimed credit for it as a new plan. Got to look into that. Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver and Bobbly Seale.

Ra

you never know what i understand...;) sometimes more than you know.

i think we should be depending upon and providing for us. grocery stores, schools, businesses, everybody having a stake in the whole. and you call me altruistic. LOL!

i do see that same vision. now that we are all looking the same way...where do we start. what can i take back to my community here in MN, what can I do. I'm hungry! You understand. Let's not talk about the obstacles but, forgive me while I say this, LET'S OVERCOME. LOLVL!!! {I just had to.}:):D

But really tho', how can i help? me being altruistic again (remember I'm a bohemian), not most importantly for me, but for those that come behind me...

How do we get people organized, listening, participating?

You mentioned the Black Panthers, Ra. Where do I fit in? The mentality will definitely have to be re-written.

It's funny, the other day, a coworker called me Angela Davis. LOL! she was quite confident that that was my last name. LOLVL! With that "new look" I will have more of that look!

Ra, please post the 10 point system here, if you will. or recap.

Also, I've talked to people before about street corner and grassroots efforts. I'm just the person for that. I want some information to be able to bring people into a movement. I know that people are waiting and looking for someone. I'm really tired of waiting. Let's do this...

I can distribuate, vocalized, and do whatever I can to get the information out to those I know and those I meet. And you know I meet alot! I tell people once they meet me, they will never get rid of me. Upon the journey, our paths continue to cross. That tell me that we should be working together.

{{{{{I thought I was getting off my soapbox! :D}}}}}

Often times I have been told to just sit back and be quiet
my father has told me that and the disappointment in my mother's face show me she also thinks the same.
but i can't be held back, i must speak, i just can't help myself.

Ra, you have mentioned, Newton, Seale, Carmichael (Toure), those times when people try to silent me and stop my movement, i look to the strength of Tubman, Parks, and even more closely my grandmother, and even those before them.

So yes, call me altruistic...and this is where we are now...

I'm ready to fight, who is with me. I'm willing to take a pledge to do what I can. That's how serious am I. This is your column Amun Ra, so I believe I can count you in. Wisdomseed, you been talking about this here and on EB. Are you in? I know you are in, AntNX/Nexis.

Now you know how I work, so can we build with what we have here. I'll pull in those I know, and you knows I knows alot...:)

I'm taking in the comments. "The plan."

After reading the works of Bell Hooks, social critic and author, I just came up with my personal plan.

Refuse to be discounted to zero. To me its intimate and effective. Its easy carry and can be applied to what ever the individual is pursuing.

A reinterpretation of what she states to "Repudiate all forms of domination of a white capitalistic patriarchal society."

Wisdom I like what you said about writing.

THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY
Platform & Program

October 1966


WHAT WE WANT
WHAT WE BELIEVE

1.WE WANT freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our Black Community.

WE BELIEVE that black people will not be free until we are able to determine our destiny.

2.WE WANT full employment for our people.

WE BELIEVE that the federal government is responsible and obligated to give every man employment or a guaranteed income. We believe that if the white American businessmen will not give full employment, then the means of production should be taken from the businessmen and placed in the community so that the people of the community can organize and employ all of its people and give a high standard of living.

3.WE WANT an end to the robbery by the CAPITALIST of our Black Community.

WE BELIEVE that this racist government has robbed us and now we are demanding the overdue debt of forty acres and two mules. Forty acres and two mules was promised 100 years ago as restitution for slave labor and mass murder of black people. We will accept the payment in currency which will be
distributed to our many communities. The Germans are now aiding the Jews in Israel for the genocide of the Jewish people. The Germans murdered six million Jews. The American racist has taken part in the slaughter of over fifty million black people; therefore, we feel that this is a modest demand that we make.

4.WE WANT decent housing, fit for the shelter of human beings.

WE BELIEVE that if the white landlords will not give decent housing to our black community, then the housing and the land should be made into cooperatives so that our community, with government aid, can build and make decent housing for its people.

5.WE WANT education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present-day society.

WE BELIEVE in an educational system that will give to our people a knowledge of self. If a man does not have knowledge of himself and his position in society and the world, then he has little chance to relate to anything else.

6.WE WANT all black men to be exempt from military service.

WE BELIEVE that Black people should not be forced to fight in the military service to defend a racist government that does not protect us. We will not fight and kill other people of color in the world who, like black people, are being victimized by the white racist government of America. We will protect ourselves from the force and violence of the racist police and the racist military, by whatever means necessary.

7.WE WANT an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of black people.

WE BELIEVE we can end police brutality in our black community by organizing black self-defense groups that are dedicated to defending our black community from racist police oppression and brutality. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives a right to bear arms. We therefore believe that all black people should arm themselves for self- defense.

8.WE WANT freedom for all black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.

WE BELIEVE that all black people should be released from the many jails and prisons because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.

9.WE WANT all black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their black communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.

WE BELIEVE that the courts should follow the United States Constitution so that black people will receive fair trials. The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives a man a right to be tried by his peer group. A peer is a person from a similar economic, social, religious, geographical, environmental, historical and racial background. To do this the court will be forced to select a jury from the black community from which the black defendant came. We have been, and are being tried by all-white juries that have no understanding of the "average reasoning man" of the black community.

10.WE WANT land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. And as our major political objective, a United Nations supervised plebiscite to be held throughout the black colony in which only black colonial subjects will be allowed to participate, for the purpose of determining the will of black people as to their national destiny.

WHEN, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

WE HOLD these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. **That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.**Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. **But, when a
long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to
throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.**

Republished in 1995 by the Maoist Internationalist Movement (MIM). Reprint and redistribute freely.

I have a serious problem with the word "WE" followed by "DONT" in the many sentences that go like this "We as BLACK people dont....."

I have banned using "we" in the context of "dont".

This plan is getting interesting. I feel its going to be one of influence. It will be the actions of people to move this plan forward. Presenting the facts to the people. This is what can happen if this, if not, these will be the results/consequences. This is included with examples explained in a calm voice.

The Panther Plan just about covers it but check this out, its still asking for permission from DADDY. All that stuff they are asking for in 1996 they should just to move to CUBA.

As I said it would have to be modified but for 1966 this was explosive that any black man, group or organization demanded anything--demands in 1966 could get you killed on the spot!

Not taken to the back alley and killed, but killed on the spot. It was white America's first glance at blacks with guns and the intention to use them if necessary. This was serious ****.

No one was concerned with semantics. People were ready to go to the wall, to the dirt, spitting blood all the way. These words had a threat behind them. They weren't the peaceful movement of Dr. King, these were the words of militant young black men with guns, influence and courage. That was the point!

In 2001, this would need to be a staged event to make sure of television coverage, busy schedules, vacations, work outs, tickets to the Knicks etc. In those those days all we had were tickets to the Nigs who were playing every night under the street light (in our neighborhood).

Ra

I saw Mario Van Peebles movie PANTHER. In that scene where you first see PANTHERS with rifles and stating the LAW that justifies the right to be packing and the cops backing down was dramatic enough for me. It was a form of eloquent resistance.

The manipulation of the media must be considered.

nexis5 comments on the points program. (brainstorming)

1. WE WANT freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our Black Community.
a. What is controling it today? Religeon? The economy? Blind consumerism? Classism?

WE BELIEVE that black people will not be free until we are able to determine our destiny.
a. Lets be more specific. Who is determining our destiny? God? The debble? lack of knowledge? Too much freedom of choice?

2.WE WANT full employment for our people.
a. Catch 22 what is there to bargin with? A Trainable Skill? Is everyone intouch with what they really want to do?


WE BELIEVE that the federal government is responsible and obligated to give every man employment or a guaranteed income. We believe that if the white American businessmen will not give full employment, then the means of production should be taken from the businessmen and placed in the community so that the people of the community can organize and employ all of its people and give a high standard of living.
a. Now I have seen cases where CORPORATE sponsor ship has built HABITAT homes. Where are those slick pitch talkers? Negotiators?

3.WE WANT an end to the robbery by the CAPITALIST of our Black Community.
a. goods and services must be questioned as it is applied to its user. sustaining anothers economy with blind consumerism must end. Church open dollar stores?

WE BELIEVE that this racist government has robbed us and now we are demanding the overdue debt of forty acres and two mules. Forty acres and two mules was promised 100 years ago as restitution for slave labor and mass murder of black people. We will accept the payment in currency which will be
distributed to our many communities. The Germans are now aiding the Jews in Israel for the genocide of the Jewish people. The Germans murdered six million Jews. The American racist has taken part in the slaughter of over fifty million black people; therefore, we feel that this is a modest demand that we make.
a. Personally, no reparations this plan is the reparation.

4.WE WANT decent housing, fit for the shelter of human beings.
a. I wish there were more conscience land owners and occupants. There must be pressure applied to absentee land owners who forgo and violate building codes. (Its working for me. I'm a do it yourself type and cut what I was paying in a posh complex in half.)

WE BELIEVE that if the white landlords will not give decent housing to our black community, then the housing and the land should be made into cooperatives so that our community, with government aid, can build and make decent housing for its people.
a. I keep hearing about block grants. Have yet to understand it to its full capacity. Who's the district council?

5.WE WANT education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present-day society.
a. This is why the AFROCENTRIC BLACK BOOKSTORE should be the addition to CHURCH on sundays. Cross marketing/promotion. Art and spoken word too.

WE BELIEVE in an educational system that will give to our people a knowledge of self. If a man does not have knowledge of himself and his position in society and the world, then he has little chance to relate to anything else.
a. US schools will continue to be factories that hand out degress... err degrees at the end. Charter special schools every body aint PO in this mofo. BLACK BENEFACTORS where ya at?

6.WE WANT all black men to be exempt from military service.
a. Exemption is a personal choice. One word ALI.

WE BELIEVE that Black people should not be forced to fight in the military service to defend a racist government that does not protect us. We will not fight and kill other people of color in the world who, like black people, are being victimized by the white racist government of America. We will protect ourselves from the force and violence of the racist police and the racist military, by whatever means necessary.
a. Again exemptions are personal choices

7.WE WANT an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of black people.
a. This I feel is a collective effort. Those who are harassed and win awards in courts are obligated to do PSA's on the matter. Get crazy like that WALSH guy is doing with AMERICA's MOST WANTED. Huey rolled legit everyone else should too.

WE BELIEVE we can end police brutality in our black community by organizing black self-defense groups that are dedicated to defending our black community from racist police oppression and brutality. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives a right to bear arms. We therefore believe that all black people should arm themselves for self- defense.
a. Bye-Bye drug dealers. Block captains? I like that.

8.WE WANT freedom for all black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.
WE BELIEVE that all black people should be released from the many jails and prisons because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.
a. only for those innocent and wrongfully accused and jacked for not having the monetary fund for defense.

9.WE WANT all black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their black communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.
a. Population demographics nixed this one and may vary from chocolate city to chocolate city. To fix the problem have large families. There is no population control law.

WE BELIEVE that the courts should follow the United States Constitution so that black people will receive fair trials. The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives a man a right to be tried by his peer group. A peer is a person from a similar economic, social, religious, geographical, environmental, historical and racial background. To do this the court will be forced to select a jury from the black community from which the black defendant came. We have been, and are being tried by all-white juries that have no understanding of the "average reasoning man" of the black community.
a. The selection process needs retooling. Lobby your representative.

10.WE WANT land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. And as our major political objective, a United Nations supervised plebiscite to be held throughout the black colony in which only black colonial subjects will be allowed to participate, for the purpose of determining the will of black people as to their national destiny.
a. go get it.

But what about the beginnings of the plan I spoke of. It is not filled with any type of rhetoric, no political hyping, but it does fulfill a need in our community.

That is the last time I will ever post that information. I can not get it discussed at all. **** the panthers, Bobby Seale is selling bar-b-que sauce, Bobby Rush is seeling us out in congress.

**** it.

Where do you think you are going. First, I haven't had a chance to read over your plan yet. But I will, I promise. but also, if there are points that we can incorporate, tailor, and initiate, then let's.

For one, I am not too keen on some of the things the BP Party thinking either. However, I wanted to review it, I haven't seen it since I read a few books from way back.

So don't you dare back out now. ****, you're use to speaking up and speaking loudly, do so until we hear you! I'm asking you to keep contributing. Please...

Don't make me get personal on you. I'll be sending you emails and stuff. And you know I will come looking for you, right? :)

Okay, I'll be back after I've caught up with the new posts, starting with your plan, Wisdomseed.

Wisdomseed posted:

Co-operative Industry

It would be good if we could build businesses on a more communal model. Instead of working undersomeone's employ, whther they be shareholder or sole owner, we need to be able to work for ourselves. Not as entrepreneurs, but in cooperation with each other. In other words, instead of you starting a business, it is more a thing of "we" starting a a business.
In a pure coperative industry, not that we need to accomplish a pure one, all the workers are share-holders, and they all own an equal amount of shares. All the share-holders work at the company, there are no outside shareholders who would benefir from the sweat of your brow and lay you off when earnings are lower than expected.
The board members are elected with each member representing a department of the company, so every department has equal repesentation. The board members elect a chair, so essentially the chairman of the board could be the janitor

We would have a business whose first interests were in its shareholders (nothing new about that), but all the shareholders are workers.


There are genrally three levels of pay, so everyone does nto get the same pay, but every one gets to split the profits and has a voice in deciding th future of the company.

Personally I would like to try this model with a medium sized grocery store. Everyone would have to understand P&L statements, goals , market share and the whole business of business. It is my thought that it will take some time to get to the level of understanding to be very sucessful in this because people would have to change the mindset from working for Mr. charly, to working for themselves and each other.


Now until we can get to where we have the funds and commmittment necessary to pull this off, there are somethings we should expect from black business as a result of our supporting them.
1. A decent wage. If they are not paying a decent wage to the black people workgin for them, and I do mean judge from the lowest, not the highest.

2. we need to insure that they are giving access/opportunity in their fields. we blindly support the local "black" radio stations, but they will only play songs off the playlist for the home office in NewYork city. By doing that they stifle a whole local industry. Magazines, should encourage people to write, and not just the drivel we get used to see in Essense, Ebony and Black Enterprise.

3. We hope they are giving their workforce, not only the opprotunity for education, but the impetus and money as well. And this does not need to be formalized education, but something that would look good on the resume.

4. I want to see equal opportunity in a business. Less nepotism.


Is that enough for now, or do you need more?

__________________
To know why is more beautiful


----------------------------

I LIKED THIS IDEA WHEN I READ IT THE FIRST TIME. BUT HOW DO WE GO ABOUT MAKING IT WORK?

AND DO YOU FEEL THE GROCERY MARKETS ARE THE PLACE TO START?

It is always a matter of finding the funding. once that has been done, it is most necessary to find the people and train them.
I think a grocery store would be a good place to start because it is a system that employ enough people to see how well it would work and on how large a scale. It is also a a business that would be desirable in the black community and it could easily compete with other stores.BTW, I am talking about a medium sized store.

I wonder if we could get some kind of grant along with loans. If there were neough people involved, I think there may be some type of small business loans that could be established. We would also have to be cognizant of tax laws.

I happen to be in MN, the land of giving plenty. They are trying to redevelop an area in which i live. i use to the neighborhood. only problem now, it's not really our neighborhood again. however, there are still some of us who aren't so willing to leave this now valuable area. their is money for redevelop this area. one thing, we are also competing for space with mainly the asian community. the area prime for this kind of market (it is currently an asian market, that has changed hands frequently). most likely it will be the asians who get it.

now the coop market i spoke of before. right on this "avenue". it is what you are talking about, there are people who own stock, receive discounted prices. and you know what, i was disappointed to find that it was a natural foods store. however, when it first opened, nothing but black faces behind the registers. that was also a nice prime price of property, perfect size for what you are talking about. and you know what, they got support of grants and loans. I wish someone would have suggested this before.

so are there agricultural grants and such available. speaking of which, we are two big chain grocery stores within my shopping distance. you know how much money we are spending at these stores??? Lots!!!and we ain't getting nothing back.

The grocery store as cooperative is a cool idea. flip the script on all these quickie/mini marts.

I also forgot to add the fighting the power doesnt have to mean totally reinventing the wheel. Using existing objects as reference is cool as well.

(back to catching up on the text)

We have covered a great deal of territory in these discussions and now I want to know--is it time to take on a new direction? Is it time that we picked up some new ideas to help people? Is it time that we kickout the civil rights perveyors and moved more to people's rights? Are there some conservative ideas that are worth exploring. Have liberals become to dependednt on handouts?

Or, do we just plain old need a new agenda?

Ra