my background is n science &, i m a big believer n the emperical method of obtaining reliable information, when feasable & practical. the following is offered primarily as an observation, a possible option that u may wish 2 explore & is not meant 2 criticize anyone s particular method of child rearing, o k? i confess, i m not a big believer n corporal punishment.

corporal (physical pain) punishment has repeatedly been documented as 1 of the least effective methods of regulating behavior or implementing lasting behavior modification. while u (& i m using the generic u here) may not agree w these findings, i defy anyone 2 produce a university or independant credible research abstract thats been published, that demonstrates its effectiveness over other techniques. n every research paper i ve read that dealt w this, corporal punishment was more effective than only ONE other option: doing nothing.

most parents could benefit immensly from attending a class or studying a mannual on operant conditioning. this is really just a fancy term for: reward. the major operating principle behind op con is this: behavior that ultimately produces reenforcement (or reward) is more likely 2 b repeated than behavior that doesen t. humans r above all else pleasure seeking organisms. now, u hv 2 read that statement carefully 2 get the picture, it says, above all else. the urge 2 avoid punishment or pain is second on the hierarchy. but that gap is significant because what that means is that f something provides sufficient pleasure, & f that postulate is correct, humans, yes, even little humans, will suffer pain n order 2 get 2 a reward. does this ever happen n real life? yes, it happens all the time, u just hv 2 know how 2 recognize it.

bringing the messege a little closer 2 the topic at hand, what that means is this: u can produce greater changes & longer lasting behavior modification of children, dogs, cats, dolphins, & yes, even rats & men, by REWARDING them when they do good than u can by punishing them when they do bad. this is really a simple & cosmicly beutiful principle of life, but 1 that parents find difficult/impossible 2 accept. one of the major problems w it is that it flys n the face of how they, the parents, were brought up. 'my daddy (mama) spanked me (us) when we misbehaved, & c how well we turned out?' yeah, well, some of our parents also: grew up w/o indoor plumbing (go 2 the outhouse), watched a 14" b&w tv, f they had one at all, & drove a car that had a top speed of 50 mph, f they had one. i don t c anyone trying 2 hold onto those.
i ve also had black parents tell me that this sounds like some white mumbo jumbo, or something that white households would practise, at which point i usu ask them f they think that we, black parents, should hv any less regard 4 the feelings of our children than they, white parents, do? it is simply a technique, an option, & it can b any color u want it 2 b.

another problem is that its implementation requires a totally different mindset 2 administering dicipline. parents today, as a general rule, all 2 frequently ignore good behavior. but let something bad happen & the child becomes the center of attention. therein lay the paradox. every child craves attention. so, this type of pattern sets up a scenario where, under some circumstances, a child will intentionally misbehave b/c any attention, even negative attention, is better than being ignored. w operant conditioning u must gradually change the platform. good behavior must b attended 2 & rewarded & it is misbehavior that should b ignored.


now, admittedly, watching 11 yo jimmy back the caddy out of the driveway n a downpour, during rush hour, while ur husband is laying underneath it, changing the oil, as u spot a highway patrol cruser coming around the corner will surely test ur resolve...... o k, just kidding. as w all dicipline methods there r limitations & exceptions. not all errant behavior can b ignored & some clearly shouldn t b. but the soundness of the principle remains. and although it should go w/o saying, i must add that the reward must b something the child perceives as a reward. rewarding jimmys good report card by allowing him the 'priviledge' of scraping off the encrustations on aunt patty s bunions is prob much more of a reward 4 her & unlikely 2 produce the desired effect n him.

as u can c, this method does require a heavy time investment & is much less 'handy' than the nearest belt, but unlike the belt: it doesen t leave welts or bruises, u can t b arrested 4 it, it doesen t teach violence as a solution, it can b performed anytime, anywhere w/o embarassment 2 u or the child, and it is user & recipient friendly. there r an infinite # of ways the program can b set up. i know 2 parents that use the star method. good behavior is rewarded by placing a magnetized star (or whatever) on a level of the fridge that can b seen but not reached by the children. accumulated stars can b traded n 4 any variety of 'goodies'. there r even different sized stars that indicate different magnitudes of reward. misbehavior usu results n not getting a star. really egregious behavior can result n the removal of a star (u d b amazed at the pain & heartbreak this engenders).

does this system always work? no, but n 98% of the cases where it doesen t, the problem is at the implementation (i.e. parents) level, not at the childs. remember that phrase that u ve seen around that says, there s no such thing as illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents? well, i can almost say the same thing when it comes 2 behavior & dicipline. there r actually hardly any bad children at all n the world, but there is an abundance of bad parenting & poor diciplinarians.

2 doctor parker

2 each their own doctor parker. no ones knows a child better than their parents and no "system" by itself is 100% effective. belts have worked in the past and will in the future, that decision is left up to the parent(s). Spanking or not spanking a child does not make that parent bad or good. There are a lot of other factors that will ultimately determine that.

i have to agree wit keme on dis coz it show in many studies
that true parents best to know one's child

this applies 2 the statements made, & is not intended as a personal attack on any1

emperical n the scientific community is generally meant 2 b information obtained thru rigorously controlled conditions, which can b scrutinized & replicated by other scientists 4 verification purposes. the 'emperical evidence' refered 2 here is actually anecdotal evidence. amoung the established methods of gathering scientifically credible information: experimental method; correlational study; cross sectional or longitudinal study; case study method; or, anecdotal study; anecdotal is considered the weakest & least reliable.

"All of a sudden a group of wimps put out some specious studies and we go away from it"

since piaget & skinner began investigation of dicipline & its effects on children in the late 1950's, over 40 yrs ago, n what way is this, 'all of a sudden'?

i hv seen statements like this b4, which basically uses name calling to describe a group of ppl, (wimps), n most instances, none of whom r actually known by the author, & contemptable dismissal of an entire body of knowledge, again, n most instances, none of which has even been read, let alone critically reviewed, by the author. of course there has never been any requirement that individuals actually know some1 or a group n order 2 demean them, nor is it a requirement that material produced by that group actually b read, studied, and analized b4 calling it: irrelevent, poorly designed, biased, skeewed, or 'specious' or any of a host of other comments intended 2 nullify it. a carefully crafted research design & experiment can, & has taken decades, not 2 mention the education & training that qualified them, & can make or break the careers of the experimenter. calling the results crap takes about 10 seconds.

u don t hv 2 b able 2 carefully design & implement any research, or even understand what constitutes an acceptable paradigm n a given field to trash or belittle some1 else s efforts. i would b interested 2 know exactly at which portion, page # & paragraph of ANY research study, that study became 'specious'. or, perhaps, they ALL became 'specious' as a group at some point. i wonder f that point can b demonstrated 2 the rest of us n some way?

"I submit that the rise in teenage crime, lower test scores and drug us is directly attributable to the elimination of corporal punishment."

it is perhaps ironic that the only credible way of testing this 'theory' would b thru the very type of research which the author has already dismissed. i don t know that there is agreement, even on this messege board, that there has been any 'elimination' of corporal punishment. f anything, quite the contrary. additionally, the likelihood of even ONE of the conditions mentioned, even f demonstrated 2 b accurate (increased teen crime & drug use, decreased test scores; f i am reading that correctly) could b attributed 2 a single, isolateable cause, is both far fetched & suppositional at best. it seems much more likely that, as w most behaviors, there r multivariant complex interactions occuring, probably simultaneously, or nearly so.

"Moreover, intimidation and the swift certainty of punishment has always been an effective deterent to mayhem."

that may b tru, but that doesen t mean that there aren t negative consequences associated w it, or, that it is the most desireable or most permanent method of obtaining behavior modification. the oldest recognized model isn t necesarrily best, simply b/c its been around longer, any more than a newer method is better simply b/c of its youth.

You were spanked and you turned out ok. Isnt that the best emperical evidence?

u don t know f i was or not, & u certainly don t know f i turned out o k, lol. no, not only isn t it the best emperical evidence, its not even the worst emperical evidence, b/c it isn t emperical evidence at all. i honestly don t get the logic behind, f u do this, i will hurt u.

n general: n closeing let me say this: we seek information & enlightenment b/c of what it helps us 2 understand & explains, not on the basis of the exceptions it doesen t. f we were 2 hold as our standard that our scientific principles MUST explain a phenomenon or behavior n 100% of cases, we will b left confused & disoriented n our attempt 2 understand our world & esp the people that inhabit it. the 'f it ain t broke, don t fix it' adage, does hv its limitations. the benefit of research & new information or knowledge is out there & availible 4 those that wish 2 avail themselves of it. doing something n a more beneficial manner is rarly mandatory.

i d like 2 thank every1 who took the time 2 respond 2 this thread.

:)

One of the beauties of science is how it tries to put items in a test tube, instead of in the open. Dr. Spock himself, before he died, KNEW that he had made a mess of things with his 'expert' advice.

Got to go with Kem on this one Doc. I'm in Juvenile Corrections. Parents that do not discipline their kids; parents who don't use the rod, will ultimately have to have their child disciplined by either the cops, the courts, the jury, or the corrections officer in a juvenile/adult jail.

If the parent or parents won't take time to 'beat that butt', then someone out in the street is going to! That's the facts, Jack!

Here's something else...if the parent/parents WON'T discipline, then they are abdicating their responsibility. When a child joins a gang, the first thing they do, as a part of initiation is either a) beat you in, or b) beat you to keep you in line! Those are the cold, hard facts of life.

If the parent WON'T do...then someone else will.

We see the evidence of this, every night, on the six o'clock news.

Mike Ramey

Hello Doc ... Everyone,

There is no one method of "discipline" that will work across the board for every child. Every child is different. While spanking, beating, using corporal punishment (or even the threat of it) works for some children, it may do absolutely nothing for another! I'm sure there are many parents frustrated and at their wits end, challenged by the child that they've beat, bribed, talked to, reasoned with, bargained with ... and still they won't be obedient! My heart goes out to yall. If you find yourself in a situation such as this, as the parent, you really must increase your resources, determination and wherewithal to help your baby become a responsible adult ... it's your job ... and if you don't, you've failed ... not only society, but more importantly, you've failed your child (giving them only the skills to do the same, with their children).

I have spanked my children. I was spanked. I can count on one hand the times I've had to spank my daughter. Now my son, I can't count, but I think that may be because I was younger and less experienced at parenting (my first born). Time passed and soon my beatings made no impact whatsoever. He was about 13 or 14 years old, and after I couldn't lift my arm one more time (because it was too tired) ... I told him to get up and he got up ... laughing! Of course, that only angered me and I made him take a few more licks "just because."

It was at this point that I realized spanking (beating) him is no longer a viable way for me to get him to cooperate and be obedient to me (and those who have authority over him). It only works for so long and if you've not instilled a sense of honor, decency, respect and consideration in your children ... for your wishes and the things that are right and proper ... long before they become teens ... no amount of beating will help.

Even though spankings didn't work with him anymore, my job as a parent, having control of him and his life, responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow, never arrested, never locked up, educated, etc., still had to be done. How would I do it if beating him meant nothing?! I had to hope that he loved me and did not want to disappoint me. I had to appeal to his heart (and mind) and not his behind. I had to teach him to trust me, trust my guidance, trust my decisions, believe that I had his best interest at heart. I asked him to trust me, go with me, give me until he was 18 ... and he would be free to do all that he pleased, without regard to what I may want.

That's what he did.

There is no single, proven way to insure that every child will be all that we want them to be. Each child is different and it is the parent's ultimate responsibility to recognize what works and doesn't work for each of their children individually ... and adjust accordingly.

:heart:

Destee

Hey Fam! If you put the fear of you and God into them at three, by the time they hit 13--and the hormones start to kick in--they'll remember that the parent(s) are still BOSS!

They may try you...but they'll know that they can't run over you.

Mike Ramey

with you Mike. You gotta get em when they young and put the fear of GOD in em... If you wait until a child gets of age and that could be at the age of 2 then you have a battle on your hands. I mean it kills me that people actually let their children dictate to them what they will and will not do.

I'm from the ol skool. I beat ***** when ***** need beatin. I'm not talking about breakin arms and drawing blood or anything. Children are very intelligent and at a young age they start the process of how far can I actually push my momma and daddy before they go upside my head.

My husband and I have two sons ages 7 and 9. Our boys know what we will and will not tolerate. True they test me more because they think I'm a pushova. Huh....

I can tell you all for a fact that I will neva say " O shae do you want a time out or Stephon please behave for mommy" ...:eek: Our boys know for a fact that their mother and father will cut up on them where ever they cut up be it church, parking lot or mall. If they wanna act a fool then we will act right along with em.

I'm not saying we beat em for every thing. Nawl.... see when they do stuff like not clean the room, or take the trash out, or have the homework done and on the living room table to be checked then we hit em up for the PS2, or tell them they have to stay in the house for a week or if we really want to get em we don't let them play in the following baseball game.

Parents have to know what will and will not work. My 9 year old hates to get whippins and my 7 year old hates to have the PS2 taken. Don't get me wrong they aren't angels by a long shot but they ain't crazy either.

Now if they at school fighting or disrespecting their teachers then that constitutes an *** whippin. If they outside just cussin and actin like some hoodz then that's an *** whippin. If one of em is in a fight and the other one don't help out...*** whippin. If I have to tell em more than twice... yeah they may not have heard me the first time but I know for a fact they heard the second time...*** whippin and if they eva disrespect me or their father…ass whippin.

They know right from wrong and what you will and will not do. You have to let them know who’s boss. I tell mine when you start paying bills in our house then you have an opinion until then you do what we tell you to do. Tough love yall. My boys aren’t scared of us. They talk to us and they know we love them because we tell them and they know that everything we do is for the benefit of them in the long run.

I am a Christian and The Bible is my final authority on every subject. It is the Word of God Himself....
And God says that to spare the rod is to spoil the child...
He said in Proverbs that physical discipline will save their lives... He did not say to abuse them, but doing nothing and not applying the rod is abuse because you are the parent they are the child you know better. You know what is right...
The Bible also says... train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it..
If u train up that child right from birth and teach the youngster based on the Word of Truth, then u will less likely have to use physical punishment often... but it is needed..
The world always has a different way for doing things than God's way, and that's why there children turn out bad ways and they wonder why...
Now I am not saying that every parent does not know how to raise their children properly, but I am saying that the parent that does not do what God says concerning their children are doing more harm than good.
Sometimes talking isn't enough,,, time out... or yellin...( I personally think that yelling and screaming is emotional and mental abuse)...
bottom line.... children should be disciplined...even God disiplines His children because He loves them and knows what is best for them... and we should follow His example... after all.... He is GOD!!!!

As a soon to be, first time parent, I have been a long time believer that corporal punishment, spanking is not a form of discipline but a re-action of frustration and anger from the adults. I'd first like to espouse only my opinion, and then offer data from other sources. I was spanked two or three times as a child. It was humiliating and scary. I remembered it and the anger I felt towards my mother who inflicted it. I remain closer to my father to this day, and feel a deeper sense of trust and confidence with him. In part
due to his patience. Just my experience. Secondly, I find it most interesting that we make laws to protect one another from bodily harm, and physical assault but would somehow condone and justify violating the physical safety of a child. It just makes no logical sense. Strike another adult and go to court, strike a child and call it discipline? Hmmm. Alright. Is it possible that before the onset of slavery which beat numerous conditions into our heads that child spanking and physical discipline were not incorporated by our respective cultures? I suggest this after viewing anthropological evidence of ancient Black cultures from Polynesia, Australia, and parts of Africa.
During slavery our very lives depended on submission to the Caucasian, and if you read the Willie Lynch manifesto, it suggests that mothers were conditioned to breed physically strong males who would be mentally weak, and girls who would isolate themselves and depend on the Caucasian male. This of course was done through violence both mental and physical.

I believe there are parts of scripture that indulge a husband's right to discipline his wife too, but anyone with good sense can recognize this abuse. Where there is trust and intimacy how can there be room for fear? And when your son or daughter decides to exact justice for themselves upon other children or peers will they have the tools to do this peacefully or will the resort to becoming physical just as their parents have done with them, thereby leaving them at the mercy of the criminal justice system.

There is a global report on ending violence against children available at this link:
www.nospank.net/globalreport.pdf
Supporters such as Desmond Tutu point out that "there can be no compromise in challenging violence against children. Children's uniqueness, their vulnerability, their dependence on adults makes it imperative that they have more, not less protection from violence"

There was an amazing study done in 1977 titled the Origins of Peace and Violence which contrasts peaceful Aboriginal / original tribes with the modern Western cultures. The largest contrasts between our societies are the advocates of sexual and physical pleasure over the repression or exploitation of sexuality and the promotion of physical pain over affection.
The results I believe speak for themselves. If you'd like to see the studies done they are available online at
rechten.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/departments/Algemeen/overigepublicaties/2005enouder/PEACE3/PEACE3.pdf[/SIZE]


The Divine Mind would never rationalize the instilling of fear and the breaking of trust between a parent and child - no matter what the act. And for those who would brag about just how bad the child is, let it be a reminder that the apple falls not far from the tree, the child is in fact a physical embodiment of the parental traits!

Have any of these Christian Bible thumpers taken a course in human physiology and actually passed? Because if you have you would know the frailty within your child's physical structure before they have completed the passage into young adulthood! It is so easy to damage small bones that have not completely fused, such as the coccyx (tailbone), and to tilt the sacrum pelvic area from impact that will result in lower back pain and future difficulties. Not to mention those brutal enough to employ a tool, weapon or whatever may be laying around! Mentally, the actual stress of enduring physical pain by a trusted care-keeper is confusing in the least and leaves more than subtle sub-conscious impressions for later on in life - including an inability to stand up for their beliefs and to not follow the crowd.

If a child is hyperactive, unable to concentrate or listen, has difficulty carrying out directions or is just plain rebellious there are a plethora of options available to a rational thinking adult. The child's diet may need changing, the "structure" provided within the home may be inadequate and the amount of positive attention may need to increase - which I'm sure is most difficult in lower socio economic conditions to meet, but does not justify the de-evolution of our selves to the prescribed justice of the White Man's Bible - which is why it's called a "King James Version" a version of the truth muddled with just enough evil to keep ya trapped.

That's my rant.... thanks for reading
Hotep

Welcome, phynxofkmt :wave:

I am against any form of physical violence, and I have never raised my hand in violence. Hm! I seldom need raise my voice. I cannot fathom instilling the fear of bodily harm - into a child no less - because of a communication breakdown. Many believe instilling fear and being physically punished is the norm in fact - expected - towards their children, peers, spouses, neighbours, communities etc. That isn't the norm ;) I believe it is a behaviour we've adopted when we started losing touch with our 'natural peaceful selves'

I enjoyed the article (for those who havent read it, it is the condensed version of a chapter entitled "The Politics of Peace and War in Preliterate Societies" in the book entitled "the Origin of War")http://rechten.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/departments/Algemeen/overigepublicaties/2005enouder/PEACE3/PEACE3.pdf

Thank you for posting - and again, welcome to destee.com!

Zulile

I never felt spanking was an act of violence but to tame thy child/ren
to obey and understand your choice and word as an parent .

I am very happy the rod wasn't spared against me for it made me a better person
it help me to stay from deceitful things / for years us black folks have taken these
measures to let our children know who's the boss .

I agree with one statement from destee that each child comes under different
structure whereas these kind of behaviours kids display sometime warrent a
spanking . I don't beleive beating a child nor hard physical hitting , but this our
black culture way been for many many years not the white sit in the corner way

By not sparing the rod there is less chance thy child will talk back / cuss and try
controlling the parent/s like many whites do and that's a fact.

spank me / save me / make me a better child to adulthood.

First and foremost I thank you for the kind welcome to this most stimulating forum. The absolute wealth and abundance of creative thinking and intellectual debate is a blessing for all of us!
Quickly, I would like to make one last address on this subject in response to Rich's comments:

I think it's important to note, that again many of our customs that have been adopted over the last 4 centuries were not native to us as Black people. To truly know who we are we have to look at our history, which was primarily retained in art form not in written documents. Secondly, placing a child in a corner for time out, or negotiating ought not to be seen a weak white custom, and there seems to be a connotation that because the media shows White people doing something that it belongs to them. Or there is the inference that everything they do is wrong. Well, as Brother Akil so poingnantly points out in his writings if we are to succeed at this game we must learn from them, because they have studied and learnt from us, that is how they've won their battles. Is is possible that from a human perspective that these new behavioral modifications techniques modelled by whites is an attempt to catch up? To make peace amongst their own families that have historically been built around domestic abuse.

When Black womben (yes I spelled it like that on purpose), were either hired or forced to take care of the white man's children, they were not allowed to use any form of physical deterrence, obviously! To have done so may have cost them a great deal of personal safety. And what we find 350 years later is that many Caucasian children excel in interpersonal relationships which translates to business success and self-confidence.

Up to this day there are elders from whom I would respect an arched eyebrow as enough of a clue that I may be out of line. And truthfully brothers and sisters many of us experienced more than a spanking... the statistics of child abuse in Amerikkka speak for themselves. And those are only the cases documented for physical signs of harm, consider the absence of psychological data on the subject.

Either way just because we've done something one way for a very long time is not a justifiable argument to keep doing it the same way today. If spanking works so well then why are 1/2 of the federal prisons comprised of African American males? If spanking keeps our children in line then why are the schools filled with metal detectors and kids bringing weapons to school? Why are our children more at risk for drug use and alcohol abuse (second only to the remaining Aboriginal population)

If spanking is a tried and true method than why oh why isn't the moral condition of the African American child outshining the educational, social and economic performance of the Asiatic, the Caucasian or the rest of the world at large? Respectfully curious....

There is an old saying: " I brought you into this world and I'll take you away". Does anyone know where that came from? It came from Africa. Does anyone know why it originated in Africa ? It originated in Africa because there were societies that were so just and spiritual that if a mother gave birth to a child who upon being raised in that society...and then decided to exhibit behavior that was contrary to the growth, peace or benefit of that society....that child would be exiled from that society. They would then send other people from that society to try and get the person to reconcile or to conform to the social norms of their village or nation. If the person refused or could not see the light, it was the mother of that person who had to go out and kill them....and kill them she did.

Why so? because she understood that her womb was sacred, her life and her people was sacred....the ways of their people were sacred....and for her to give birth to a life that was in rebellion to all that they were and that she was, was not only a disgrace, shame and dishonor to who she was as an African woman and mother, but it was a disgrace, shame and dishonor to who we were as a people.

My Queen still lives by that value system...and our daughter knows it very well. In fact, I know it very well also and at times it scares me. It scares me because I know deep in my being that she will take poor Makeda's behind out in a heartbeat should she not exhibit or live by the values we have instilled in her. Now once she leaves home that's another story...but while she is still under our roof I know that "SUBCONSCIOUSLY" she is aware that she is really on death row.

So do I agree with corporal punishment? It depends on the child. I always look at it as "It's MY WILL or THY WILL" and if a parent is really a parent it can never be "THY WILL" unless it's "Thy Will do as I say".

^^GULP^^
:eek:

well stated brother Keita and i agree .......These are family morals as parents
a structure we instill in our children one many young men leave the nest / home
they have the choices to take on different things right or wrong and it's not because
we didn't teach them better but they made the choice to do so in a wrongly manner
which lead them into these american prison walls and there are a lot who are wrongly there

Throughout my family roots / history we have beliefs and we carry out those beliefs
we will lay the rod and spare the rod when need be we teach honor / respect and
if you step out of line you will step back from the rod ...spanking is not an act of
dishonor or abuse nor physical violence .

But i respect the view of others who don't spank some kids you can talk too and
some you can take things away they like and there are children who need the rod

I guess it's all in what you apply to there bottoms that make it some form of abuse
Blacks have and will i beleive lay the rod ....

It really don't matter to me how any other race do there upbringing of there children
what i do care about is that mines obey and respect adults elders and peers before them
thy parents and what is to the best of there knowledge right .

Each of my children i had to ajust to and what works best to get my point across
where one need a spanking the other needed a talking to as for one may just need
a punishment where things are taken for a while each child respond differently .

I will lay the rod .......It's better to spank and save a life then to not spank and miss
that life
Fear is not always bad because we all hold fear at some point and often then none
in our minds we respect them fears as well a child would of thy parent/s .

No one has answered my question to date, and that is if spanking is such a proactive method of instilling positive behavior then why are so many of our youth still at risk for imprisonment, drugs, violence etc....

Secondly, many parents are aware of the stages of development: attachment and exploration, identity and competence, concern and intimacy. What we may not be aware of is the impact of our interaction with our children at these stages and the resulting characterization that appears as dramas as adults. Yes, what happens during the stages of develpment between parent and child is so important that is sets the stage for our "dramas" as adults. Although you can condition your child to behave exactly as you want, there are of course side effects to this kind of thinking. One of those side effects is the development of our shadow sides, the parts of us that were rejected by our caretakers, the parts of us that we have come to see in ourselves as "bad". This person misses the opportunity for self-integration because "if he expresses the core parts of himself that his parents reject, and resentfully becomes what his parents approve... he ends up with s split self hiding the disapproved parts from others and even from himself" (Keeping The Love You Find, Harville Hendrix, p.87)
I do not find it surprising that most adults that advocate spanking came from homes where they were spanked/disciplined with physical coercion. We are generally fated to repeat the destiny of our own childhood as adults.
Wounding, can be loosely defined as the "deprivation of pleasure, the infliction of pain and the lack of emotional safety...." I am not here to argue about the difference in degree between trauma and abuse and discipline.
This moral slogan of instilling respect for the elders.... is tired and worn out! Many of the elders in the community are dysfunctional and have a host of social /personality disorders. This is reality America, look around you at what you live with. Some of the elders have mood disorders, personality disorders, drug and alcohol addictions, criminal behaviors and mindsets, and yet we continue to promote this slogan as if it we were in a 1950's version of Leave It To Beaver. I just got to shake my head. Have we buried our heads to the malignant traumas growing from emotional, mental, sexual and physical abuse, trauma that is experienced by children today at the hands of an "elder".... Where do our children get the idea of safety for themselves? Respect for themselves before anyone else and please, please don't make it out like these topics are a rare occurence amongst African Americans because we all know better. Many of this country's best known authors and female icons such as Iyanla Vanzant, Toni Morrison, Oprah Winfrey discuss their personal experiences with incest / sexual abuse at the hands of someone older.

And to say you don't care what other races are doing, means that somehow just because of the darkness of your skin you are separate from the rest of humanity... leaves the impression of being close minded and separate from the rest of humanity. Since when does being Black make you perfect? I suppose if a Chinese scientist discovered a cure for AIDS today that you wouldn't care since it didn't come from your own people?

Unfortunately, being black doesn't make us infalliable, and I think our current challenges prove that.
Keita, I would like to know which tribes in Africa you speak of where the mother kills the child in exile?
And to say your child knows she is on death row is such a strong statement in itself that I choose to leave it alone.

In honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, I too have a dream. Where one day children of all races will know what it means to grow up with peace and overstanding from their caretakers, where patience and tolerance will prescribe the solution; where their hearts and minds will develop into the greatness they are destined for. I have a dream, where one day there will be no need for social services and the bruises and marks of a child will be a distant memory from a dead culture. I have a dream, that one day all of God's children will be cherished and protected, and there will be no more "beats", beats from the angry parent, beats from the neighborhood bully, beats from the miltant police force and "beats" just to survive. I have a dream that one day Ritalin and ADD will be proved a myth and the children will supplied with a dietary source that provides balance. I have a dream that one day the need to control our children will evolve into the desire to guide our children so that they can remind us of what it means to be innocent.
I have a dream that one day each child will be provided a home, a nutrious meal, arms that hug and a hand that soothes. Where one day emotional, physical and sexual exploitation become beasts of a bygone era; where man disciplines himself up from a state of predatory animal to the grace of humanity. Maybe, just maybe one day this dream will include children of all races coming together to solve the world's challenges using their unique gifts and talents to move forward together rather than separately and alone. I may stand alone on this, but today everyone gets to dream....

[QUOTE=phynxofkmt]No one has answered my question to date, and that is if spanking is such a proactive method of instilling positive behavior then why are so many of our youth still at risk for imprisonment, drugs, violence etc....


Lets get clarification here, because the population that is filling up the prisons today hardly if ever got a spanking as you call it. Those before them were not filling up the prisons and those before them were not filling up the prisons. We did not get spankings either, we got our @SS Whipped!!!....and all in capital letters. Something to ponder over because we grew up KNOWING OUR PARENTS OR GRANDPARENTS would weld out some stuff that would have you calling God for help.



Secondly, many parents are aware of the stages of development: attachment and exploration, identity and competence, concern and intimacy. What we may not be aware of is the impact of our interaction with our children at these stages and the resulting characterization that appears as dramas as adults. Yes, what happens during the stages of develpment between parent and child is so important that is sets the stage for our "dramas" as adults. Although you can condition your child to behave exactly as you want, there are of course side effects to this kind of thinking. One of those side effects is the development of our shadow sides, the parts of us that were rejected by our caretakers, the parts of us that we have come to see in ourselves as "bad". This person misses the opportunity for self-integration because "if he expresses the core parts of himself that his parents reject, and resentfully becomes what his parents approve... he ends up with s split self hiding the disapproved parts from others and even from himself" (Keeping The Love You Find, Harville Hendrix, p.87)


Obviously you must be doing a report or you are very young. There are so many factors in the development of our children that there is no European study that could possibly speak to it. That's where we messed up. We were doing fine before the Spock report and Dyfus. Furthermore the impact of the parent upon the child is only one small piece in the puzzle. The parent is only one player on the football team. Our parents were the quarterback.

The neighbors who had the same value systems and goals were the defenders of that quarterback. We went to the playground or the school and we found that the linebackers and running backs were there to make sure that the receivers (the child) caught the ball and ran with it. In other words, we used to have a whole village helping to raise our children in America at one time. Those are the emotional, psychological, spiritual and social support systems that our children used to have before and shortly after "integration" and "individualism" which began destroying us.


I do not find it surprising that most adults that advocate spanking came from homes where they were spanked/disciplined with physical coercion. We are generally fated to repeat the destiny of our own childhood as adults.
Wounding, can be loosely defined as the "deprivation of pleasure, the infliction of pain and the lack of emotional safety...." I am not here to argue about the difference in degree between trauma and abuse and discipline.
This moral slogan of instilling respect for the elders.... is tired and worn out! Many of the elders in the community are dysfunctional and have a host of social /personality disorders. This is reality America, look around you at what you live with. Some of the elders have mood disorders, personality disorders, drug and alcohol addictions, criminal behaviors and mindsets, and yet we continue to promote this slogan as if it we were in a 1950's version of Leave It To Beaver. I just got to shake my head. Have we buried our heads to the malignant traumas growing from emotional, mental, sexual and physical abuse, trauma that is experienced by children today at the hands of an "elder".... Where do our children get the idea of safety for themselves? Respect for themselves before anyone else and please, please don't make it out like these topics are a rare occurence amongst African Americans because we all know better. Many of this country's best known authors and female icons such as Iyanla Vanzant, Toni Morrison, Oprah Winfrey discuss their personal experiences with incest / sexual abuse at the hands of someone older.


Okay, at least now I can see what I'm dealing with here. First of all, let us once again get some clarification concerning your perspective and your educational and social influences. You make mention of some of the elders as being dysfunctional and as having their own issues, etc. (point 1.) Name me anyone who was raised up in America that is Black and is functionally whole? How could a people who have lived through and experienced on all levels the dysfunctional reality of this country from slavery on up with its system of institutionalized racism, miseducation, post traumatic slave syndromes, inequalities, social and psychological castrations of our people....the lynchings, the burnings, the police brutality and judicial lynchings possibly come out of this experience and call themselves a "WHOLE PERSON"?

Do you really think that the weaker among our people were alcoholics and drug addicts because they wanted to be?...or could that simply have subconsciously been a coping mechanism because they couldn't consciously handle what was going on? Our filling up the prisons was planned while we were in slavery....I refer you to "Criminalizing a Race" by Dr. Charshee McIntyre...except back then the population in prison was 100% black women and not men because they wanted to stop us from multiplying. I must also refer you to "Philosophies and Opinions" by Marcus Garvey so that you will see that the ratio of black men in prison during his time era is exactly the same ratio as it is today. You are idealistic with much to learn in my opinion which I am forming by your statements.

And to say you don't care what other races are doing, means that somehow just because of the darkness of your skin you are separate from the rest of humanity... leaves the impression of being close minded and separate from the rest of humanity. Since when does being Black make you perfect? I suppose if a Chinese scientist discovered a cure for AIDS today that you wouldn't care since it didn't come from your own people?


If we are black and if you are black then your LAST CONCERN SHOULD BE WHAT ANY OTHER RACE IS DOING. You know what?...you need to go to my site at http://www.keitacorner.org/ and watch the video I have there by Dr. Claude Anderson. He's an economist but he has some history there about us that will blow your mind. Do you know that there was a law passed called "manumission" that was designed to make us white in everything but our skin color? And being that you spoke of the rest of humanity which we gave birth to, I care for them about as much as they care for me and that is evident today just as it was in the past. I am Canadian also and may have to return to Alberta just to deprogram our people there, because Canada is just as dirty as these white people in America.


Unfortunately, being black doesn't make us infalliable, and I think our current challenges prove that.
Keita, I would like to know which tribes in Africa you speak of where the mother kills the child in exile?
And to say your child knows she is on death row is such a strong statement in itself that I choose to leave it alone.


It's not that she "CONSCIOUSLY" IS aware that she's on death row, but "SUBCONSCIOUSLY" as i believe I stated it, she has to be aware.

In honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, I too have a dream. Where one day children of all races will know what it means to grow up with peace and overstanding from their caretakers, where patience and tolerance will prescribe the solution; where their hearts and minds will develop into the greatness they are destined for. I have a dream, where one day there will be no need for social services and the bruises and marks of a child will be a distant memory from a dead culture. I have a dream, that one day all of God's children will be cherished and protected, and there will be no more "beats", beats from the angry parent, beats from the neighborhood bully, beats from the miltant police force and "beats" just to survive. I have a dream that one day Ritalin and ADD will be proved a myth and the children will supplied with a dietary source that provides balance. I have a dream that one day the need to control our children will evolve into the desire to guide our children so that they can remind us of what it means to be innocent.
I have a dream that one day each child will be provided a home, a nutrious meal, arms that hug and a hand that soothes. Where one day emotional, physical and sexual exploitation become beasts of a bygone era; where man disciplines himself up from a state of predatory animal to the grace of humanity. Maybe, just maybe one day this dream will include children of all races coming together to solve the world's challenges using their unique gifts and talents to move forward together rather than separately and alone. I may stand alone on this, but today everyone gets to dream....


You must be dreaming of a day when there will be no white people here, cause that's the only time that might happen! Africa didn't have orphanages cause nobody threw their children away. Africa didn't have senior citizen homes cause nobody threw Grandpa or Grandma away. Africa didn't have a word or thought in their minds that meant "prison" before the white man....but being that I don't want to let this draw out any further, you enjoy your dream because you can only do it while you are sleeping. Even King was not totally sleep...for he said himself that "his greatest fear was that he was integrating his people into a burning house!"....DREAM ON!!!

Have a Good Day

i only have three words to say...SPANK DAT BUTT!!

my background is n science &, i m a big believer n the emperical method of obtaining reliable information, when feasable & practical. the following is offered primarily as an observation, a possible option that u may wish 2 explore & is not meant 2 criticize anyone s particular method of child rearing, o k? i confess, i m not a big believer n corporal punishment.

corporal (physical pain) punishment has repeatedly been documented as 1 of the least effective methods of regulating behavior or implementing lasting behavior modification. while u (& i m using the generic u here) may not agree w these findings, i defy anyone 2 produce a university or independant credible research abstract thats been published, that demonstrates its effectiveness over other techniques. n every research paper i ve read that dealt w this, corporal punishment was more effective than only ONE other option: doing nothing.

:jawdrop:

most parents could benefit immensly from attending a class or studying a mannual on operant conditioning. this is really just a fancy term for: reward. the major operating principle behind op con is this: behavior that ultimately produces reenforcement (or reward) is more likely 2 b repeated than behavior that doesen t. humans r above all else pleasure seeking organisms. now, u hv 2 read that statement carefully 2 get the picture, it says, above all else. the urge 2 avoid punishment or pain is second on the hierarchy. but that gap is significant because what that means is that f something provides sufficient pleasure, & f that postulate is correct, humans, yes, even little humans, will suffer pain n order 2 get 2 a reward. does this ever happen n real life? yes, it happens all the time, u just hv 2 know how 2 recognize it.

bringing the messege a little closer 2 the topic at hand, what that means is this: u can produce greater changes & longer lasting behavior modification of children, dogs, cats, dolphins, & yes, even rats & men, by REWARDING them when they do good than u can by punishing them when they do bad. this is really a simple & cosmicly beutiful principle of life, but 1 that parents find difficult/impossible 2 accept. one of the major problems w it is that it flys n the face of how they, the parents, were brought up. 'my daddy (mama) spanked me (us) when we misbehaved, & c how well we turned out?' yeah, well, some of our parents also: grew up w/o indoor plumbing (go 2 the outhouse), watched a 14" b&w tv, f they had one at all, & drove a car that had a top speed of 50 mph, f they had one. i don t c anyone trying 2 hold onto those.
i ve also had black parents tell me that this sounds like some white mumbo jumbo, or something that white households would practise, at which point i usu ask them f they think that we, black parents, should hv any less regard 4 the feelings of our children than they, white parents, do? it is simply a technique, an option, & it can b any color u want it 2 b.

another problem is that its implementation requires a totally different mindset 2 administering dicipline. parents today, as a general rule, all 2 frequently ignore good behavior. but let something bad happen & the child becomes the center of attention. therein lay the paradox. every child craves attention. so, this type of pattern sets up a scenario where, under some circumstances, a child will intentionally misbehave b/c any attention, even negative attention, is better than being ignored. w operant conditioning u must gradually change the platform. good behavior must b attended 2 & rewarded & it is misbehavior that should b ignored.


now, admittedly, watching 11 yo jimmy back the caddy out of the driveway n a downpour, during rush hour, while ur husband is laying underneath it, changing the oil, as u spot a highway patrol cruser coming around the corner will surely test ur resolve...... o k, just kidding. as w all dicipline methods there r limitations & exceptions. not all errant behavior can b ignored & some clearly shouldn t b. but the soundness of the principle remains. and although it should go w/o saying, i must add that the reward must b something the child perceives as a reward. rewarding jimmys good report card by allowing him the 'priviledge' of scraping off the encrustations on aunt patty s bunions is prob much more of a reward 4 her & unlikely 2 produce the desired effect n him.

as u can c, this method does require a heavy time investment & is much less 'handy' than the nearest belt, but unlike the belt: it doesen t leave welts or bruises, u can t b arrested 4 it, it doesen t teach violence as a solution, it can b performed anytime, anywhere w/o embarassment 2 u or the child, and it is user & recipient friendly. there r an infinite # of ways the program can b set up. i know 2 parents that use the star method. good behavior is rewarded by placing a magnetized star (or whatever) on a level of the fridge that can b seen but not reached by the children. accumulated stars can b traded n 4 any variety of 'goodies'. there r even different sized stars that indicate different magnitudes of reward. misbehavior usu results n not getting a star. really egregious behavior can result n the removal of a star (u d b amazed at the pain & heartbreak this engenders).

does this system always work? no, but n 98% of the cases where it doesen t, the problem is at the implementation (i.e. parents) level, not at the childs. remember that phrase that u ve seen around that says, there s no such thing as illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents? well, i can almost say the same thing when it comes 2 behavior & dicipline. there r actually hardly any bad children at all n the world, but there is an abundance of bad parenting & poor diciplinarians.

:jawdrop:


1. I submit, in that you didnt submit a comparable study to back you claim that you are unscientific

2. I dont recall any study that refuted corporal punishment as an effective form of behavior modification. In fact, there have been similar studies on adults that show just the opposite. Especially those techniques employed by various military establishments world wide. Boot camp is a clear example of this

3. I further submit, in that this new age, non-corporal punishment is recent and even it's originator, Dr Spock no longer subscribes to it. ( He appeared on several talk shows and stated point blank that spanking a child WAS an effective form of behavior modification and discipline )

4. I submit as my emperical evidence, thousands of years of raising children. Spanking not only was allowed, but encouraged. During this period, man has steadily grown in population, knowledge and generally prospered.