many times i hear people, men complaining about unwanted pregnancies, blaming single women (yes you Kemestry) for everything that happens in the black community.
i've advocated this before, if you don't want children, tie the penis down on your leg, keep the zipper up, and don't give away the goodies. yes, men, i'm talking to you. stop giving up the goodies.

i think men, place too much responsiblity of birth control on women. yes we have many options, the pill, the shot, now the patch and when all those fail, then men are easy to bring up abortion.

for those who don't know, by the time you know you're pregnant, the heart is beating and the embryo is starting to resemble a fetus, a human being. it is always a BEING.

years ago it was announced that a male birth control pill was being developed. however, i still can't see too many men rushing out to get their 3 months supply of pills. i can't imagine men not wanting children abstaining from sex but i also don't see them asking their doctor for THE SPOT. i was doing some reading today about birth control.

(NOW FOR THE SALES PITCH)

want to prevent or help stop male pattern baldness, clear up that adult acne, and perhaps stop some cancers such as prostrate cancer, THEN TRY THE PILL and the PATCH!

it seems the they have developed a pill and patch. it seems that the pill isn't as effective in non-asians as it is in asian males. however, researchers believe that the pill and the patch combination will be much more effective in preventing unwanted, unplanned sperm deposits (pregnancies).

in small print, taking the pill or patch can cause headaches, cramps, and the usual side effects that women may experience.

most men don't blast woman for dis like keme said two sides
2 a story ladies need to keep da legs out da air so one can't
bare unwanted seeds sexuality misfit comes when they just
to young men don't drive the hard rock just park it
see ladies gotta say no til da tyme is right .......responsibility
is both i see many men taking care their own in some cases
by them self without da support

i applaud those that do, including yourself. ;) too many of those cases this is not so, and you know it. Rich.

researchers, manufacturers for years were only placing the responsibility of birth control on women. we been tortured with the IUD, children been poisoned, our bodies altered, put at risk for strokes and blood clots, those are alot of things to consider when taking birth control. however, i still don't see too many men taking the precautions of not becoming fathers. like i said, that task is usually reserved for the woman.

truth is truth.

so Rich, you willing to help test out the male BCP&P (birth control pill and patch) and help prevent all those unresponsible single woman from having unwanted and unplanned children.

being a single mother, i get really disappointed in men. if you play the game and men expect to win. sooner or later the odds are going to be against you.

and btw, ALOT of us wouldn't be here today if...

here a question for those who are willing to share

what form of birth control have you used in the past?

what form are you currently using?

how many of yall are abstinent?

are you male are female?

i konw we could predict the outcome these questions. ;)

sure why not !!
most single female mothers
got caught up in a wrongful mist
and we have some males just da same
but yes we do see females as the one
to take the weight on the birth matters

now you know the condom is not 100% safe. so if a woman you were involve with became pregnant, then what would be your reaction?

for the record, i had used the pill when i became sexually active. that was up until i got older. i didn't like the conflicting reports about the benefits and the complications and possible effects of using the pill.

i've used condoms and the rhythm method.

and to those who may also being using the rhythm method, you starting counting from the first day of your last period. NOt the last day of your period as i once thought.

i never got the shot or the patch - because of the inconsistencies of your period, the extra weight gain, the other problems friends of mine have encountered.

so Kemetry, you willing to be part of the test group for the male birth control methods.

from what i read, it only temporarily reduces the number of sperm produced. after about 6 months of discontinuing the BC pill or patch, the male's sperm count would return to normal.

so what about a short period of time?

you also know that condoms aren't 100% effective either. they break, sometimes not correctly applied, they come off...

so i still can't get you to be part of the Destee Male Birth Control Test Group? ;) :laugh:

ohh, let's not forget...

we've got one volunteer already - Rich!

so anyone lese besides Rich and Kemestry willing to test out the Male Birth Control methods? :laugh:

(thandi thinks of the image them thinking hard about whether they remembered to take their daily dose.)

if you had the choice of the pill, the patch, a shot, the morning before pill (as opposed the the morning after pill now available for women), which would you choose?

at all cost the pill & condom is needed
that's the way i go but da females birth control
thang is da key !

ohh noooo, don't renege now. you've already committed to testing out the male BC methods. :)

do i need to quote you from above? ;)

here's my question. too many men sometimes feel like they are "trapped" into parenthood. male birth control seems like a better way for them to control their sperms. since many men are not likely to gie up sex entirely, this seems like a way to help prevent "unplanned" pregnancies.

so Rich, didn't you hear the pitch. this pill can prevent male pattern baldness, clear up acne and perhaps help prevent some male cancers - prostrate and testicular.

okay a question for the ladies. would you encourage your teenage son to use a male BC?

would any suggest it to their mates?

not at all i will test it no doubt
but just laying it down ladies
is da controler when it comes to da pill
we ware da coats of protection
I will test da whole thang !!!

I've got a device that is 100 percent effective in the prevention of pregnancy. It's called A MARRIAGE LICENSE!

In other words, all a brother has to do when a sister gives him '...the high sign...' to cmon over and 'do the horizontal', is say: NO BABY!

T lady--I like your style. However, there ARE some sistahs who are PAYING child support! The FASTEST rising category of single parents are single households headed by MEN! At last count, the number of single female households were listed at 14 to 15 million. But the number of single male households is over 2 million and rising at a quick rate. This, according to the US Bureau of the Census.

Of course, T-lady, women HAVE the ultimate birth control device, thanks to the Feminists and the US Supreme Court. It's called ABORTION. I DO NOT support ABORTION.

Sadly, many folk were 'hoodwinked' in believing that Abortion is only for those women who have been victims of rape, or incest. The REALITY, according to the stats---More than 85 percent of the women who have abortions have them because the Baby (fetus) would 'cramp their style'.

Less than two percent of the abortions performed annually are on women who are victims of rape or incest.

MOST of us in the hood have enough sense to not kill the unborn! BUT, many have lost their sense when it '...starts getting too hot..' and '...I have to take off all my clothes...' down to the 'thong'! Then, like one pastor said: "You lost your inhabitions...and you also lost something else!"

The REAL question, Thand, should be: "When will some sisters say NO and mean it?" Putting a leash on the brothers will only cause SOME sisters to get a nail file to set the brother free...and into their beds!

Hey, if you don't want to take birth conrtol...DON'T...but that ALSO means don't hang out in places where you KNOW ya gonna get HOT, and want someone to help you SCRATCH THAT ITCH!

Mike Ramey:kiss:

again, it easy to blame the women.

why aren't we asking men to stop being "ho's:. why don't aren't we teaching them and instilling in them that their bodies are valuable and precious, especially since they are half responsible for the conception of the child. i also think that if we held males at higher standards, it would almost force females to adapt to the new high standard.

i will emphasize the importance of abstinence in my son, just as i would a daughter.

so again, why aren't we emphasizing to men that they too can have more control over "unplanned" pregnancies. the condom has failed for many...

so Mike, what are/were your methods of birth control?

also, i guess i might agree with you about some thangs!

abortion issue, i agree but men are also quick to ask "how much for an abortion" when faced with the news of his sexual partner announcement. in fact, i think i was last year sometime that i was engaged with a discussion with Kemestry and a fellow named Wisdomseed about abortion. some people seemed to feel that if the man didn't want a child, in alot of cases, more children, then the woman should get an abortion. if she didn't, she was solely responsible for the child. or that after the relationships was over, the man didn't really have to deal with the children because they would mean dealing with the mother.

i don't have a problem with single parents, whether male or female, i do have a problem when the other parent isn't apart of the child's life. and don't let me leave out...the pawns people make of their children in some of these, ummmm, messed up relationships. so yes, i do like that some women deny their children access to their father or vice-versa. unless it's of physical, mental, emotional harm to the child, it is ultimately the child who must define the relationship with their father or mother ;) as in some cases.

We live in a feminized culture at present. Where it's OK for women to call men DOGS, but not deal with the DOGGETTES that are their 'best friends'. Where a woman would not put up with mistreatment at the hands of another woman, but feel that it's OK for a woman to disrespect a man....

In the matter of non-custodial parents, the child WILL seek out the other parent...but HOW they seek them out rests on whatever the custodial parent pumps into their head! Some non-custodial parents are walkaways. But others are either pushaways or driveaways...where the custodial parent has rendered the non-custodial parent 'non-existent'.

On the matter of birth control...there is some talk that is meant for the bedroom, and some meant for the webline. What someone does/does not do with birth control is THEIR business and is simply not meant for public discussion or consumption.

Kem hit it right on the head. There are bad brothers out there, but there are bad sisters out there, too. Sampson didn't cut his OWN hair...he was in the wrong lap when it happened.

However, some of us have been 'layin the lash' on wayward brothers, and not using the same whip on the wayward sisters in the house!

Drop on by my section of the board and see what others have been discussing. No 'limits' there.

Mike Ramey:toast:

stop changing the subject....

why isn't birth control emphasized for males just as it is for females?

and men are blamed when they are not taking apart of their child(dren)'s lives. men too often, feel like that can walk away. yes, some of pushed away. I have male friends who have issues with the "babies mommas". i encourage and help them if i can, to seek the courts in at least setting up visitation.

for the record, i won't hear me call me "dogs". will i use it for reference, as a generality, perhaps. but i do not call men dogs.

as far as birth control being private. please, you can talk about sex and whatnot, then birth control can be also be disgusted.

but i guess maybe that's as "taboo" as talking about masturbation. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Thandiwe
so i still can't get you to be part of the Destee Male Birth Control Test Group? ;) :laugh: :lol: oh my :eeek:


Wow ... am I reading some passionate views on this subject or what??!!

The fact of the matter is, it is both people's responsibility, man and woman ... for the long term care of the child.

I hate to admit that Kemetstry helped change my view regarding this topic though, in that, the greatest responsibility ultimately falls on the female (more often than not, she will be raising the child alone) and therefore, she should be more cognizant of the major life changes she will endure ... if she engages in activity that could possibly / remotely produce a child.

While I have no personal experience with having child support payments taken out of my check (before I even get it), I can imagine that this must be an uncomfortable position to find one's self in ... simply because you wanted a little sex.

I am on the other hand, very familiar with sacrificing my whole, entire life, for my children. Day in and day out, every decision made, every penny spent, with their well-being in mind. Oftentimes, a young lady's life changes so very dramatically when she finds herself pregnant with a child she did not plan for. Not only her life, but her very body has already begun to change, accommodating itself for the long road ahead. Plans of education, career, travel, fun, and finances ... all must be put on a back-burner.

Now, in regard to child support, there are few men with children today, getting away with not paying child support (unless of course the woman doesn't seek it). Every court in this land will lock a man up if he doesn't pay his child support in a timely manner, with no regard to if he has a steady income or not. (In spite of the fact that Kemetstry says the man has no responsibility since he didn't marry her.) This too is a very high price to pay for a few minutes of sex.

Having said this, the consequences are great for both the man and the woman when a child is conceived (not to mention the child). Knowing this, it would behoove all to consider greatly the act they are embarking upon, when choosing to have sex.

:heart:

Destee

i'm still waiting to hear why men aren't being encouraged to use birth control. sex has been happening since the beginning. only now are they beginning to explore ways, besides a vascetomy (sp), for birth control.

i still firmly believe that if we raise the expectations of men that the behaviors or women will have to follow suit.

as along as we concede that women are most likely the caregivers, then it will remain a woman's problem that she ended up pregnant.

Destee, i think i read that you have a son(s). if and when he become of age, will you teach your son the responsibilities and repercussions of having sex, or will it be easier to dismiss and fault the parents (most likely the mother) of the girl he is involved with?

just because things are the way they are doesn't make them the right way or only way.

i'm still wondering why more men wouldn't be wiling to try male birth control if is was now available.

in the cases i've heard of, it takes quite some years for the law to catch up to individuals not paying child support, that includes women. ;)

Hi Thandiwe,

I think there are several reasons why birth control has been directed toward women. First and foremost, because it is the female that gives birth. Secondly, we live in a male dominated society, and they have historically looked out for self. Fortunately, times are changing, women are in positions recognizing that there has been a lack of attention given to our specific needs ... and things are being addressed.

There are male birth control methods available, i.e., sterilization, condoms (?), and abstinence (there may be others too). Even with these things in place, I still stand by my post above. Females should not leave it up to a man for such a life altering, life threatening, life long decision, such as whether she gets pregnant or not. Even if he says he's taken all precautions, she should not lower her guard regarding this because it will still be her that has the overwhelming responsibility if, for some unknown reason, a child is conceived. It is simply too important an issue not to take care of herself.

I'm not sure if we are disagreeing here or not Thandiwe, but I do think it is definitely her problem, if she gets pregnant. Who else's life will be changed as drastically as hers, if she gets pregnant? Who else will have to walk around pregnant for 9 months and endure the excruciating pain of child birth? Who else is likely to be raising a child alone, suffering the economic hardships of being responsible for another human being day to day? Who else will have to forgo their dreams of "living happily ever after" because she is now "with-child" and not married? Who else will suffer the stares and whispers of unforgiving judgement by others? For these reasons (and more) she must recognize the weight will be on her shoulders and she must exercise the control she has over finding herself in this position.

The male has none of these issues (usually) and therefore he can afford to care less, she can't.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting that he should not share equally in the responsibility ... but the reality is everywhere for her (and us) to see ... and with this in mind, she must look out for herself.

Another thing Kemestry was able to help me see, which I hate to admit, was in regard to your comment about raising the expectation of men. Certainly both men and women need to do better, but, if a female doesn't "give him any" ... he won't get none (at least, not from that young lady). Men aren't raping women and taking their sex, women are giving it to them. If we are waiting for men not to accept the sex, while continuing to make it readily available ... we're only fooling ourselves.

Yes, I do have a son. He's 24, single, no children, lives on his own and loves his Momma :) I have ALWAYS told him that he would be totally and completely responsible for any children he makes. To tell him any less, would be negligent on my part. I have talked with him about most all things under the sun. When I found out (by asking) that he was having sex, I impressed upon him how important it was for him not to leave it up to the young lady to provide protection. I had read where some females were putting holes in condoms, as a means of trapping eligible young men. I told him to make sure he has his own and he assured me not only did he have his own, but was doubling them up or some such foolishness (TMI!).

I have a daughter too, my conversation for her regarding this topic is much of what I've shared above. It will be her life, her dreams that are shattered, stunted and or stopped completely, if she gets pregnant before she's ready to be pregnant.

Each person involved in the sexual encounter has reason to look out for themselves, and should. If they fail to do that, then they will suffer the consequences of their decision ... both male and female.

:heart:

Destee

birth control should not the the total responsibility of the woman. and if she does get pregnant it is not just her problem. from the comments i've heard about single mothers, it becomes society's problems.

my point is this, if a man wants to have extra protection against birth control, then why aren't they taking more precautions against it. i think by stating that woman are at fault if she gets pregnant again dismisses the men from their responsibilities.

and yes, the answer is because we live in a male dominated society. that was what i was looking for.

and condoms, vascetomy, and abstinence isn't a guarantee against unplanned pregnancies. so my statement again is about being even more protected. not that the woman shouldn't take any birth control measures, just they men seem to not want to alter, experiment, and seemingly would be less likely to use the male birth control pill or patch if it was readily available.

yeah, you've tried that argument before and it still doesn't work with me. you can interpret it anyway you want to...

the law ruled us a being less than a person at one time, didn't mean it was true. ;)

what a woman does with her body is her decision. the available forms of birth control only seem to back your view. however, my position stands. if you don't want unplanned children, then protection yourself. that goes for men and women.

it's take two, babayyyyy. :laugh:

ohhhhhh

was that supposed to hurt? :laugh:

well look at that, that was the only response you could come up with. i might have hit that ounce of truth you have in you. ;)

:kiss:

so you're saying the a law says a women is solely responsible for birth control?

if that's the case, that why so many men are unwillingly paying child support.

i did ask this question on another board and there were more than expected, a few men who would be willing to try male birth control if it was available.

others feel they don't want to put possible "poisons" in their bodies.

excuse me but a child would never be born if there wasn't sperm.

people are unwilling to pay child support because society keeps telling them that, "that's the way men are" they are more sexual and shouldn't have to be responsible when those acts lead to conception. it devalues men, your point of view.

the input happened when he had sex. emaculate (sp) conception is only known to happen once.

the input is whether or not to participate.

i've posted this on other board. I'm was surprised to see a few men, besides Rich, would be willing to try male birth control. that's shows responsibility and maturity to me. also shows they have value of their bodies. these were younger guys so i'm not surprised. others consider taking male BC would be poisoning the body.

so according to you, Kem, it's okay for the woman to "poison", alter her body, maybe even destroy her reproductive organs, and risk other illness but not men.

that's nonsense and you know it. actually maybe you don't. you have a great ability to making people believe this stuff your dishing out. i guess you forgot your lessons on sexual education.

i and so glad there are others who feel that men are equally responsible for their actions. men are willing to protect themselves from "unplanned" and perhaps "unwanted" pregnancies. these people have put 2 and 2 together and know that having sex could result in the creating a child.

the other men who have respond to my question say they wouldn't poison their bodies. at the same time, they wouldn't expect it from a woman either.

anyone else have an opinion?

"No according to the law a woman has a right to this. The man does not!"

it's a good thing you aren't part of the supreme court. really!

even with your interpretation, it would give the woman a right to birth control, not an requirement. and no where does it say, that a woman must abortion a child.

now if those are your personal beliefs fine, but don't try to make it the law. it is only "your law".

what question is that?

as i see it, your point is and always will be that women are solely responsible for birth control and if she gets pregnant and the man doesn't want the baby then she is obligated by the LAW to get an abortion. am i wrong in my assessment?

ask the question?

and you are the one who's specialty is changing things into your own, reading stuff that isn't there. like your take on abortion. my assessment comes from things you have said in this thread and in others.

now if you want the question answered, ask it again.

you still haven't made a point why men should not use birth control. if the law supported that, they wouldn't also enforce child support measures. ;)

There ARE women who don't want to pay child support either.

We don't see too many of them because it would not be 'PC' to show women hunted down and jailed...although this IS starting to finally happen.

It's 'fashionable' to beat up on the men.

If TWO laid down, BOTH have a say--and a duty--to support that child. ONE can't speak for both!

IF a woman has control over her body, THEN a man has control over HIS. Can't be JUST one or the other!

BOTH are responsible for BIRTH CONTROL. BOTH can say NO, and hopefully have the character to BACK IT UP! That's the best birth control...just say NO and walk away...no matter how much HE or SHE may BEG to get their 'itch scratched'.

And, as I said before, to 'prove' your earlier point on a 'birth control' sign up is not dealing with the fullness of the deck! The BEST birth control is keeping one's pants zipped up, or one's skirt down UNTIL THEY GET MARRIED.

Mike Ramey




:love:

Mike i make reference to men because that is what is more prevalent. but i'm referring to women as well.

everyone should be equally responsible. that's what i've been saying from the beginning. don't expect more of me, if you're not willing to do the same. that's what this thread is really about. ;)

Mike if this is your take, then we have no disagreement.

:love:

we can't predict the future. even married people aren't guaranteed a life with one person.

my position stands, if a man doesn't make to be considered or end up being a "sperm donor", protect yourself. stop having sex or use birth control. if a man doesn't want to believe that, then yes he may well end up paying child support.

you make it seem like men have no control over their bodies or their sperm. as if men are weak and shouldn't be responsible for their actions.

trying to make the point that only woman can get pregnant. a child can't be produced without sperm. PERIOD. don't supply the sperm and men won't have to worry about "unwanted" and/or "unplanned" children.

you are full of contradictions. too many for me to care about or try to point out. i'm thinking that your contradictions, half-truths, and probably your own bad experiences have helped to form your opinions. for that i can't blame you.

you made an outlandish statement. don't know what women you've been hanging out with, but i suggest you be more careful about where you placed your penis. in fact by making the statement about "golddigging" women, then you make men look really dumb, vunerable, and naive. again, we should be stressing to men the value of their bodies. the "golddigging", "irresponsible", scheming women are a good reason to advocate male birth control. that's a no-brainer.

the bombs are exploding in your face. everything you said above it still nonsense.

you seem to want to turn everything around and make it a woman' s fault. from your view, men are stupid, unable to make wise decisions and totally irresponsible. your responses sound as if they are coming from a young, sperm-driven boy, not a man.
as for a children being better off in bad marriages - bullschit again. tell it to the children who have witnessed their fathers beating the hell out of their mothers. tell it to the children whose parents would rather walk around in silent and avoiding each other than seeing their parents in a loving relationship. i could go on, but with you it would be moot.

as i mentioned, your view is probably framed by your own experiences. sorry for ya.


young and old men alike, if you don't want children, make sure you are protecting yourself from that. as Mike mentioned, wrap it up or don't do it. same with woman. protect yourselves from men who think as Kemestry does.

stop believeing the hype Kem!

i did a mental survey of my friends and family. some are from two parent families some are not. either is better off. well actually the one with 2 parent families seem to be doing worst.

i always do not se the pattern you do. and the stats show what the surveyor wants it to show, you know, just like in science.

i posted this same question on another board, as i mentioned before, the men seem to want to take precautions for their actions. if they could take added measures besides condoms, to prevent a pregnancy, then they would. in fact, you are in the minority. one such person, your cybertwin, actually noted that many of sports figures would be wise to partake in male birth control.

well you should stop using stats then. ;)

what you fail to realize is that your reality is based on your life your experiences. therefore, people are gonna be different. i'll always refused to let you pigeonhold me and box, categorize every woman because of what appears to be your very narrowminded view.

THEN TAKE OFF THEM DAMNNNN BUNNY EARS AND BUNNYTAIL THEN! :lol: :lol:


Kem, i want some of what you've been smoking!!! you won't see me using statistics. as you should know, stats are often stacked in favor of the takers view.

it is you who tends to use society, majority rule, and conformist attitudes in your statements.

here's something else for you to think about, opps i forgot you don't leave your options and viewpoints open. ;) anyway, whose facts. schit if you tell enough people the sky is one thing and say it with enough confidence, schit they'll start to believe. especially if you say the bible, or experts say. :rolleyes:

you know, just like someone got tyou to believe that having babies is just a woman's responsibility.

I think the key word here is maturity...when two people..yes TWO people, consider having casual sex, they should both think of the consequences...and both should realise and admit that they are responsible for that outcome..

now I know this would happen only in a perfect world..and because we live in an imperfect world, there is always going to be a problem...

traditionally through the ages, women are the nurturers and childbearers and the keeper of the home...men are the providers..it's a mindset, it will never change...at least not for the majority..

personally I don't believe that just because the woman has the right equipment to become pregnant and give birth, it automatically makes her solely responsible for the pregnancy of the child.... two get all hot and bothered and want to tango..not one....she provides the egg he provides the sperm, a baby can only be created if the two join...so two are responsible...

as for males practicing any form of birth control, I would say the biggest problem here would be an image problem...for some it would be seen as a man doing a womans job...not a manly thing to do....most men would never tolerate the side effects that come with taking any form of birth control pill...but women have to....

one point not mentioned here is:
what if the female cannot take any form of birth control..eg..the pill, the patch, iud's, injections...what if her body rejects these...is she supposed to abstain from sex for all time....because marraige is no guarantee that somewhere down the road she will not be divorced and looking after the kids by herself...and if the male has kids all over the place and is sick and tired of women having babies he doesn't want, why can't he consider having a vasectomy...

it's a two way street...

and Kem....I cannot believe that a child being raised in a two parent home where domestic violence is prevalent is better for that child than to be raised by a loving, supportive single parent...
but thats just my thoughts on the subject...

K

so we're back to the Virginia thing again huh Kem..ok if it works for you so be it....

I am not male bashing here just giving my opinion....and yes I know there are women out there who regardless of what the male wants will still go and do as they please regarding the pregnancy...I also know that there are a lot of females out there who are doing it alone because abortion is not an option and the male wants no part of the pregnancy...

now you can call me whatever name you choose....but....my opinion still is this...two people have sex...two people are responsible...it's that black and white.....

and I really don't care what the statistics say on children being happier in a two parent home even if there is domestic abuse....how did they get the figures for this....ask the parents of the child?....ask the child?...run a few tests?....victims of any form of abuse, as you are most likely aware, carry their hurt, their shame, their problems, around with them for years in some cases...some of these are not known until adulthood....and having first hand knowledge of the affects of being in a situation of domestic violence, you or any statistics you care to point out to me will not convince me that a child is happier in this situation simply because there are two parents....and thats not a statistic....thats an observation of someone who's been there....

K

again, there you go with the stats. :rolleyes: (Destee can i get a rolleyes smiley. i find it to be quite necessary when talking to Kem.) :D :lol:

Kem, we have given you first hand experience with domestic abuse and you still want to go quoting some stats.

Kitana, i appreciate your comments. Thanks for sharing. Reasonably people know what you and i know. The creation of a child required two people, 2 parent homes are necessarily better than the usually female headed single households, and that birth control should be the concern and responsibility of both individuals involved.

WE also know how unreasonably Kem can be. ;)

Kemetstry ... if you were female and pregnant with a child that the sperm donor did not want ... would you have an abortion?

I'm just wondr'n.

it would never happen to him, Destee. he would only have sex in a commited, long lasting, ideal relationship. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

and what is your definition of a commited relationship?

Kemetstry ... even taking all the precautions you've mentioned (short of not having sex at all), a baby can still be conceived. So, going back to my original question ... if you found yourself pregnant would you have an abortion?

Destee

condoms break, sometimes the pill doesn't work, i.u.d's get expelled...etc etc....in other words nothing is guaranteed to work 100%.....

and do you put a time span of years, on a committed relationship,?
because relationships aren't guaranteed 100% either...and most times it's the woman who stays behind with the children...

so we're back to square one!!!

K

with your logic, you make it seem like women just go out and have sex with any and every one.

what is a potential mate? so you wouldn't have sex until you were married. if not, then by your definitions, you too would be having casual sex.

hey kem, you could become a irish travelers and have an arranged marriage at the young age of 8.

your relationships? so you have been "committed" with one person.

so again, what is your definition of "committed relationship"?

and no, you didn't answer Destee's question. if you were a woman, in a committed relationship and the partner didn't want a child, would you have an abortion?

....the usage of child support funds should be investigated in many cases.

a 3rd of all CS Income should go to the child's college,
the other 3rd to the child's medical care,
the other 3rd to the child's clothing and food.

This should be the law everywhere.

jh your next president :D

how do you know how the child support is being used? stop believing the hype! stop watching and listening to the media created, white man manipulated portrayals of black women. single mothers also work and contribute to the well-being of their children.

when the male birth control methods become available, use them and you won't have to worry about paying child support. well, you might be you have even greater protection.

yeah, but i get the idea that you pay child support. :)

Originally posted by kemetstry
:cool:

I married mine. So under that rule I have no problems with it. I would have a problem if we were just casually dating.

just to prove you did lie...first you say you're married and then you announce that you're not.

what you don't seem to realize is that your feelings towards women are based on your own relationship. you blame and categorize all women because your failed relationship(s).

your opinions really show your true feelings and are always biased. you can't be objective in your thoughts. but i already knew that. carry on if it makes you feel better.

should have used birth control!!!!
:lol:

Most child support awards are set very high. The law doesn't give the man credit for payments unless he makes the "full payment". This is hard sometimes with the current guidelines in some states and the state of the economy. If a man is unemployed, the judge can set the child support at what he thinks the father can pay (imputed income) and not according to his unemployment checks. Most of the time, a modification will not be granted in cases of unemployment. Judges can impute a man's income at the highest salary he made during his lifetime, even if he isn't currently making it.

Many men who try their best to make the high child support payments are locked up and rights taken away because they can't afford to pay or pay the full monthly. This in turn hurts the child(ren). He can't pay child support if he is locked up, driver's license or professional licenses pulled, etc. This can occur after only 30 days in the state of Georgia. The loss of licenses keeps him from earning income. He in turn racks up arrearages. It is a catch-22 situation and has criminalized a lot of men, especially black men. With economically realistic guidelines, men are more likely to stay current with their child support which in turn benefits the children.

There is no punishment for mothers who withhold visitation. According to the law, visitation should not be withheld even if child support isn't paid. They are two separate issues.

The current law does not encourage families to stay intact; they encourage a system of control in which the custodial parent, which is usually the mother, has all the power. The current laws actually encourages mothers to leave their marriages for the financial windfall, especially in middle to high income marriages. The current law actually encourages women to have children out of wedlock. The women know they will not be held financially responsible for their children as much as the men. Custodial parents should also be held accountable about the spending of the child support to ensure the monies actually go toward the welfare of the children.

In some states, they use income shares. This is based on the salary of both parents. However, this is unfair if the state hasn't based their data on current economic data. Some states strictly use a percentage of the obligor's (usually the man) net or gross income. This is the most unfair type of guideline. Child cost studies show child costs decline as a share of obligor income rises.

Based on the tax advantages and filing status as Head of the Household, there is a significant shift of income from the non-custodial parent to the custodial parent. This is resulting in a hardship for the non-custodial parent who has to provide an adequate home and adequate care for the children too.

Working with a woman's group, I was told the following by some women. They work the system by having children by different men. They told me it is more of a financial gain than having children by the same man. If a woman has two children, each fathered by different men, the mother can receive about 20% of each father's income. If a woman has two children by the same man, the mother would receive about 25% of the father's income.

There are many cases in Atlanta where the incomes of both parents are the same or the woman is making significantly more than her husband. This is often the case in marriages where both are degreed professionals and this is often the case in a lot of African-American marriages. The number of African-American women with college degrees significantly differs with those of men with college degrees.

I personally know of a case where the mother had an affair, made a six-figure salary (much more than her husband), moved in her boyfriend and was rewarded with custody of the children and 25% ($1300) of her ex-husband's salary plus medical insurance. Do you want to know what his reward is for trying to keep the marriage together? He lives in an apartment struggling with every Wednesday and every other weekend with his children.

Another man is paying his ex-wife who filed for divorce $1700 dollars a month in child support and she makes $7,000 more than him. He is paying more than 50% of his salary for her residence. They are both professionals with Masters degrees. There is no history of domestic violence or other wrongdoing in either case. Yet, the courts treat the men as if they did something wrong. I have heard many men state, "Why get married? The wife will control everything during the marriage and after the marriage if it ends."

I have seen several family members and friends live on the poverty level trying to pay the unrealistic child support payments when their ex-wife or girlfriend should be held financially responsible for the financial care of the child(ren) also. These men, more often than not, do not have access to their children due to manipulative games played by the mother.

The laws meant to protect women have unfairly discriminated against men. Family court is definitely not a man's friend.

When child custody ceases to be a monetary gain for the custodial parent, the frivolous divorces/custody battles will decrease. When child custody ceases to be a monetary gain for the custodial parent, out-of-wedlock births will decrease. Meanwhile, the non-custodial parent is struggling to maintain a decent home, clothing and food for their children when the children reside with them.

The best thing to do is for the parents to decide what should be spent on the children and have their own agreement. This should be given to the court. It is time to stop letting the system decide what will be done in our families. When you do, you are assisting them in destroying our families.

Most men want to support their children. To truly understand the child support system, you must understand the politics behind it. It is a large money maker for private collection agencies. States get matching monies for child support they collect for welfare recipients and this is the kicker...for non-welfare collections. This includes collection through payroll deduction. So it is in their interest to have men pay through the child support agency instead of directly to the mother via check or money order.

Some women need to stop taking the attitude, "He/She is my child." when there is a custody issue and "He/She is your child too!" when it comes to money. Jointly raising the child(ren) is beneficial to the children and parents.

If you need additional information, let me know...It is not as cut and dry as you would and have been led to believe...

Regina, l have not heard it put so true and thorough before... and by a woman at that :jawdrop: ....

l have a friend with the darkness of the system hanging over his head- madd baby mama drama, and more drama every time l talk to him. Oh, and his judge, a black lady may as well threw the gavel at him. He had receipts, current child support payments and even proved his lack of visitations due to his baby's mother's... let's say... ignorance.

l swear, for the first time, l wanted to smack sense into that judge.

hey, if you have more 411, spit dem.

Another perspective . . .

http://www.gate.net/~liz/liz/003.htm

The June issue of the following magazines have excellent articles on the child support issue.

Upscale Magazine
Men's Health magazine

It is an industry that has destroyed the family and continues to cause problems between non-custodial parents and custodial parents.

What is the history behind the concept called "child support"?

When did Friend of the Court come into existence and why?

Why was it that families where the parents decided to separate, needed legal and formal means to arrange "child support?"

Why weren't men and women able to work these arrangements out among themselves?

Does the Social Welfare system in the US perpetuate some of the problems that exist in our communities when it comes to support of families?

i didn't really mean to get all deep and technical when i started this thread. i started it with a tongue in cheek, sarcastic tone.

but just the same, i was serious about men taking a more active part in preventing pregnancy if they are not willing to deal with the consequences of having sex.

i questioned how the market for birth control has giving the responsibility mostly to the women, therefore, research and new form of birth control are for women. i still maintain that men should be more responsible for preventing unwanted or unplanned births.

i also believe that alot of men wouldn't even take a pill or shot for preventive measures even if these forms of birth control were widely available and affordable to men. i say to these men, don't be complaining about paying child support if you haven't taken sufficient measures yourself.

and yes queenNN, parents should be able to come to a fair and reasonable agreement about the care and welfare of their children upon divorce. unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

I'll go into more later...just got back after being away on business...

The child support issue is definitely a serious one and one that needs to be addressed and changes made.

The concept of child support was initially to get fathers to support their children to prevent poverty and to get back the money the government was dishing out for welfare.

Families involve the courts because they are too bitter to work out the arrangements themselves. Depending on the circumstances, one partner tried to hurt the other by taking the children or the property.

States actually receive monies based on the child support they collect. It is a big money business.

J'hiah,

I am all for equal rights for women. However, women are always spouting equal rights but don't want to equally support their children if their salaries are the same or more than their husbands. They complain Motherhood decreases their chances for promotion but don't want to share parenting with their ex-spouse or ex-significant other to free up time to pursue these interests. Even when the woman is the one who leaves the relationship, she still wants him to pay through the nose and have no say so in the parenting of his own children. Women want to be seen as martyrs. And women wonder why men are so reluctant to marry.

:cool:

No! I went further. I opened with the fact that men dont get pregnant. Telling someone that they are responsible for something that they were not allowed input on is ludicrous. Which is why there are so many refusing to pay child support.

Kem why do you take other peoples opinons so offensively? I am new here and have been reading a lot of your posts and you seem to have a lot of anger toward black women. No, birth control is not the sole responsibilty of the woman, I don't care what the courts have ruled, there headed by sexist, racist men!!! It takes two people to have sex and both are responsible in finding out the best method used.

AS far as your comment on why men are not paying child support is ludacris. Almost funny if it weren't so scary to know you actually BELIEVE what your saying. I am sure there are a variety of reasons as to why black men either abondon their children, don't support their children. However the post was about child support not being paid. The truth of the matter is there are MORE black men not paying than women! Both are wrong! No matter HOW the child came into the world, no matter who thinks who is to "BLAME", the fact still remains that support needs to be given. My aunt used to say: " If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!" In other words if you can not handle the consequences of your actions, then DON'T DO IT!

A child still needs to be supported by BOTH parents, emotionally, financhially, spiritually and mentally. If one parent is immature, selfish, and just down right irresponsible then $$$ still needs to be given. No if ands or buts about it!

Lady Bastet

:cool:

I have 1st hand experience with domestic abuse. She tried to do a lot of things, both physically and verbally. I didnt work, but she tried. The stats come from people with experiences.


Stats are taken from certain peoples experiences, it is not EVERYBODY'S experience.
So it only holds truth for certain individuals.

Lady Bastet

J'hiah,

I am all for equal rights for women. However, women are always spouting equal rights but don't want to equally support their children if their salaries are the same or more than their husbands. They complain Motherhood decreases their chances for promotion but don't want to share parenting with their ex-spouse or ex-significant other to free up time to pursue these interests. Even when the woman is the one who leaves the relationship, she still wants him to pay through the nose and have no say so in the parenting of his own children. Women want to be seen as martyrs. And women wonder why men are so reluctant to marry.


This is a blanket statement that does not include everybody who has all or some of these issues. The men don't want to marry because it is not their choice to do so at the time, maybe the woman doesn't want to marry???

The point is child support needs to be given. Let's not see these men or women who do not pay with rose colored glasses. There are exceptions to every rule, but lets face it, the men who run away from the responsibility are less than men, and women who do are less than themselves. The custodial parent is made to suffer, if he/she takes that mentality sitting down. The child can suffer, if the custodial parent allows themselves to foster that type of t hinking.I personally am divorced, with one child. I take full responsibility for choosing a loser for a mate, however, he is intelligent enough to know right from wrong and still pimps the court and his child. He has established no relationship with our daughter and is always cryin wolf where there in NO wolf to be found. How far does one need to go in order to secure the positive welfare of their child??? I have given into excuse after excuse, I have tried to bend over backward to support him, even though he was telling lies, I have tried to create a bond btw he and his child for years... she is now 4yr. and he has never been consistant in anything!! She doesn't even ask about him. So what should I do, pump an image of man that he is NOT into my precious childs head so she can "long" for a person who is not even loved her enough to give into her basic needs??? This is my mind will set her up for emotional failure. I will not do it. It is his choice to come and see his child and to help me take care of her needs. On the other hand, I don' t mention him at all. I don't say negative things about him. If she asks I tell her positive things, "Yes, you know you have a daddy". "He loves you" I teach my child that not all families are the SAME, as the white man would pump into childrens heads. I teach her that it takes a village to raise her. I surround her with her extended family, positive male images and strong, loving, nuturing women! I break my behind to provide for her needs and her wants. I make sure I sit down with her and teach her educationally, mentally, spiritually and emotionally. I spend time with her. I do this because I believe this is what love does. I made the mistake and now I am going about making it work for us. I am not wallowing in any guilt. I am guilt free, I have healded, now is about the time to support and raise a queen of our future.
The court is not for families, its for itself. Political and financhial gain.I see if for what it is, i also respect it. It has tried to help in the past. However, you can't change anyone, if he chooses to stay out of her life because I don' t/won't love him anymore, because he can't control me, manipulate me, or pimp me, then so be it. The universe will replace him with someone who is going to be worthy being called DADDY!

CHILD SUPPORT STILL NEEDS TO BE GIVEN! Everyones experiences are NOT THE SAME!!
PEACE

Lady Bastet

J'hiah,

I am all for equal rights for women. However, women are always spouting equal rights but don't want to equally support their children if their salaries are the same or more than their husbands. They complain Motherhood decreases their chances for promotion but don't want to share parenting with their ex-spouse or ex-significant other to free up time to pursue these interests. Even when the woman is the one who leaves the relationship, she still wants him to pay through the nose and have no say so in the parenting of his own children. Women want to be seen as martyrs. And women wonder why men are so reluctant to marry.

Regina, this is your opinion and we welcome it here, however, you failed to qualify your opinion with facts or sources that support your information. Here, you present your argument as though it's an accurate assessment of ALL women and ALL men and you know this is not true. I know you want to make a point, but please be careful as to how you represent your opinions because someone less knowledgeable about such things might take you seriously and that would be irresponsible.

Thank you!

Kemestry, your opinion is just that! Please be reminded, your truth and point of view may not be the same as someone else's. What that means is, you are not always right and everyone else is wrong, except in your own mind.

It would be nice if you would stop trying to make a personal issue out of every discussion you engage in. It doesn't matter whether I like what Regina writes or not. Even though I don't owe you an explanation, I'll share with you that my concern was with the way it was written and how it might be interpreted. I'm sure there are others here who read my comment and understood perfectly well my intent which was not personal in any way. Regina is entitled to her opinion just as everyone else here, including you, but we all should take responsibility for the information we share. Some may be factual, but most of it is strictly one's own opinion, and more than not, that needs to be qualified.

Thank you in advance for your understanding and cooperation.

Peace! :spinstar:

Kem, I'll keep at it.

NNQueen and Lady Bastet, No, I don't know all people and neither do you. I did not say child support did not need to be given, "fair" child support needs to be given.

Regina, I never implied that I knew all people but the way you write gives the appearance that you do. Don't get upset because I point these things out to you. No one is perfect so I hope you're able to handle the observation and move on.

I'm glad you intend to take Keme's advice. At least your message isn't lost on everyone!

Peace!

Kemestry, your opinion is just that! Please be reminded, your truth and point of view may not be the same as someone else's. What that means is, you are not always right and everyone else is wrong, except in your own mind.

It would be nice if you would stop trying to make a personal issue out of every discussion you engage in. It doesn't matter whether I like what Regina writes or not. Even though I don't owe you an explanation, I'll share with you that my concern was with the way it was written and how it might be interpreted. I'm sure there are others here who read my comment and understood perfectly well my intent which was not personal in any way. Regina is entitled to her opinion just as everyone else here, including you, but we all should take responsibility for the information we share. Some may be factual, but most of it is strictly one's own opinion, and more than not, that needs to be qualified.

Thank you in advance for your understanding and cooperation.

Peace! :spinstar:

Wonderfully put NNqueen. You are really a very intelligent woman. I appreciate your response to ignorance.
lady Bastet

No she's not!

Quit sucking up Jealous Keme because someone agrees with me?

No she's not!

Quit sucking upKemetstry, why are you yell'n at folk? And taking things personal, telling the Sister to quit sucking up ... what's that about? Do you not have anything substantive to contribute to the discussion? If not, perhaps you should just let it go ...

:heart:

Destee

This piece is HOT!!!!!!

Stay focused,

Ujima

Kemetstry ... it is a personal attack, to completely leave the topic of the thread and begin negatively talking about an individual Member. It may have happened in the past, but it's not allowed now.

:heart:

Destee

I have been observing this conversation for quite some time, but have choosen to stay silent. Mainly because this issue invokes strong emotions, often based on one's personal experiences, which leaves little room for logical discussion/debate. I do believe though that the child support debate is but a symptom of a greater problem: That of the stability or instability of the African American family. It is impossible to build a strong or stable community without stable families, after all, a community is composed of a group of families. African Americans were denied the priviledge (the right) of having a stable family during slavery. The result of this restriction was generations of children growing up with mistrust, lack of confidence, inablility to love (as well as a host of other mental conditions), lack of guidance, and poverty. Today African Americans are denying themselves the right of having a stable family with the same results.

It has been discussed on many threads, that Black people have psychological issues. In my opinion there is no greater example of this than the state of the African American family (or the lack thereof). In my opinion there is no greater crisis facing our community than this one. I don't support men who do not financially support their children, it is irresponsible. However it is also irresponsible to bring children into this world without being able to give them the support they need: Financially, Spiritually, and Emotionally. A large portion of the financial, spiritual, and emotional love that children need comes from having both a Mother & Father. The best way to ensure that a child has both their mother & father is to be married before children are brought into this world. While I know many people will disagree with me. It is irresponsible to have children out-of-wedlock (especially purposefully). So expecting responsiblity (men taking care of their out-of-wedlock) to come from an irresponsible act is not entirely realistic.

The attitude that African Americans have towards birth control is also unrealistic. African Americans don't practice pre-maritial sex any more than other races. Nor do they engage a greater number of sexual partners than other people do (despite rumors to the contrary). The reason why African Americans have so many out of wedlock children is because we as a people don't use birth control. Men point at women and ask, "why don't they use the pill?"
Women point at men and ask, "why don't they use condoms?" In the mean time both continue to have unprotected sex which results in children (a fact that is discussed in Biology & Health, which all of us should have by 9th grade). We continue to have unprotected sex with people we wouldn't consider being with, which results in unwanted children (a child that isn't wanted by both parents is unwanted). We continue to have unprotected sex, which results in estimates of 69-75% of our children being born out-of-wedlock. This is beyond irresponsible, it is retarded!! :help:

Brothas and Sistas are both responsible for the current mess that is the African American family. Only by working together can we have a solution. The first step is to stop the blame game. Brothas take care of your children...all of them. Sistas stop playing the helpless victim, because you do have control of what goes into, and out of your body (literally). This nonsense is hurting our children, and their children. Children need to grew up in loving, stable, and supportive homes (It is essential to their development). They demand love & stability, they expect it. Children have a right to this, and it is wrong (selfish) of us to deny them that right.

Kemetstry, i recognize your contribution to the community and appreciate it, but it does not give you license to "disrespect" someone. Just because you don't consider it that, does not mean i don't consider it that ... and here, all it takes is for me to consider it that.

I don't pretend to know it all or act as though i'm beyond making a mistake, this might be one of my many, but i stand firm on it. If you can't keep to the topic without personally attacking folk, you can't stay here. This not only applies to you, but everyone.

:heart:

Destee

Kem, I'll keep at it.

NNQueen and Lady Bastet, No, I don't know all people and neither do you. I did not say child support did not need to be given, "fair" child support needs to be given.

I do not believe that I said I Knew everyone???? It was not clear what your POINT was. I think child support is fair..... its for the child.

How much is not an issue in most cases, its just an issue on whether or not parents recieve it.

Lady Bastet

No she's not!

Quit sucking up

In reference to your comment, I think what Nnqueen stated was just right.

And I don't "suck up" as you so eloquently stated, there is no need for me to follow behind anothers opinions if they don't match my own. I am far too intelligent and strong for that.

Maybe you recognized this behavioral trait in yourself???

Peace and understanding... step into the light!

The lady Bastet

I wonder what kind of information or advantages are appropriated from these debates, by conservative think-tanks, the FBI, CIA and the other covert institutions that are charged with the responsibility of resolving that old racist “ideological nemesis” called, “the Negro question”.

All I know is, this is an explosively emotional discussion and if we can’t find some solutions to our problems soon, whites, as always, will have the “notorious-decency” to volunteer their help.

Be we request it or, “USUALLY NOT”.

You know… help with the usual social accommodations like sterilization, the penitentiary and “more” penitentiary, or helping us design and promote more genocidal social norms and/or programs.

For years, there have been conservative scientists and politicians, quietly talking about “forced birth control” and they weren’t talking about “the soul brothers” sisters.

Since white folks have been "gracious enough" to design modern birth control and effective child support laws. Maybe they can resolve our conflicts concerning both.

Don’t think these devils aren’t listening and documenting these types of discussions. They are in the wings just waiting for a chance to apply a tactical strategy to our problems, under the right conditions.

Just look at 9/11 and the Homeland security laws.


But hey,…if necessary… rock-on.


Peace family,

Sun Ship

Brother Sun Ship, are you suggesting we stop discussing the issues that concern us? If so, how do we proceed in even knowing what our Sister / Brother thinks?

I'm really interested in how you'd suggest we proceed.

Thank You.

:heart:

Destee

Brother Sun Ship, i re-read what you said ...

"All I know is, this is an explosively emotional discussion and if we can’t find some solutions to our problems soon, whites, as always, will have the “notorious-decency” to volunteer their help."

Okay, i think i'm skrate now. :)

:heart:

Destee

I must be psychic, because I felt sister Destee might be my first response (lol)

Peace Destee,

Is this a discussion or a fight or a search for solutions?

just curious.

Brother Sun Ship ... my first post (http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81226&postcount=21) to this thread also took note of the passion involved. I agree that we have many threads in this community, that could easily be used against us, if we don't solve these problems. That is a whole 'nuther topic.

I suggested that we each take full responsibility for all acts that could lead to the birth of a child. If not, this will continue. I said this last year, and i'm sure babies have not stopped being born to parents who are not prepared for their arrival and long term stay.

This is a discussion seeking solutions, that turned into a fight, that is now a discussion again, anticipating solutions with Brother Sun Ship's next post. :)

Much Love and Peace.

:heart:

Destee

I have heard in some circles that birth control is part of the government's plans to reduce the black population. In these same circles, I have heard that African Americans need to have more children to thwart this scheme, so we can match the population growths of other people (especially Latinos). I don't buy into either of these schools of thought. I made my feelings about birth control known in my previous post (last page)...in the middle of the Destee-Kemetstry debate Children are a blessing when they are born to stable homes that both want them, and are able to provide for them. When these conditions don't exist, children can be a burden. Therefore I don't support a increase in black births, if this increase adds to the already insanely high single parent African American household. I agree that this thread should be about solutions, not individual attacks. But any solution, which does not address the reduction of children being brought into our community, that are not wanted by both the mother & father, isn't a realistic solution.

Quote Sister Destee:


“Brother Sun Ship ... my first post to this thread also took note of the passion involved. I agree that we have many threads in this community, that could easily be used against us, if we don't solve these problems. That is a whole 'nuther topic.

I suggested that we each take full responsibility for all acts that could lead to the birth of a child. If not, this will continue. I said this last year, I'm sure babies have not stopped being born to parents who are not prepared for their arrival and long term stay.

It's a discussion seeking solutions, that turned into a fight, that is now a discussion anticipating solutions with Brother Sun Ship's next post.”


Unquote


Sister Destee, Sister Destee,


I was looking for that smilie that could represent that BIG boulder of responsibility you just put on my back :lol: "...anticipating solutions with Brother Sun Ship's next post" :lol: , but let me give you just my most humble opinions. :)

I agree with your intelligent response to this dilemma, but in this free-flowing society, people have so many ideas about love, responsibility, sex and so forth that there will probably, never be a lot of agreement about how to proceed with a healthy and responsible sexual relationship, which of course leads to the issues in this thread.

There is even a social movement of (usually high-income) Black women who are trying to have "that one child of their own" and don’t necessarily seek any male participation in the raising and financial responsibility of their children.

But, let me get to the point.

First of all, supporting a child and the judicial involvement of forcing a man to adjust and issue that support under certain state or federal guidelines are two different things.

This is like forcing a mother to spend her personal income, on her children in pre-allocated increments at designated times, enforced by laws that are financially punitive with the recourse of incarceration, if these court issued obligations are not met.

Almost sound like welfare, don't it, absent the incarceration.

The law imposes an assumption, that all “poor” or working class men are possibly criminally derelict in their opposition to these enforcements and should be treated as such.

If a man decides that he doesn’t want to be instructed by the government and decides he prefer to have a free and natural supportive relationship with his children, financial or otherwise, he has very little recourse and is not credited for any financial support outside of this governmental intrusion.

Basically, if a sensible man and, sensitive and loving father, buy clothes for their children, assist the mother directly, or assist in any emergencies or unexpected expenses. The child support caseworkers, or judges in their prosecution of law, do not regard these expenditures, if that same man is not able to or refuses to meet the financial requirements of the court order. For, these extra expenditures are considered gifts, not support.

Anybody with common sense knows that specific monthly monetary contributions, cannot supply a growing child with all of the incidental financial needs a child needs throughout a lifetime. And the modern laws instituting child support has invoked more animosity and hostility, between all parties involved than it has removed.

Now as far as birth control, I think that both men and women have lost their natural relationship with the act of sex, itself. As the song said, we’re all “slip-sliding away”.

But for those trying to prevent pregnancy. If a man is not equally involved in the practice of birth control than a woman needs to move on. Let’s keep this simple.

I know very frank discussions about this are hard during the wooing and intoxication of passion, but I think birth control and children should be a non-taboo subject among lovers. We think this type of talk is scary and un-hip, if discussed early in a relationship.

Men are afraid to admit, they have a natural subconscious yearning to reproduce and women are afraid to discuss their overpowering and natural innate connections to motherhood.

It’s not the control of birth, but the control of us.

We shouldn’t be at odds with sex and birth. Something as simple as this archaic idea revisited, may put Black people on the cutting edge of a social revolution.


Peace,

Sun Ship

But, let me get to the point.

First of all, supporting a child and the judicial involvement of forcing a man to adjust and issue that support under certain state or federal guidelines are two different things.

Basically, if a sensible man and, sensitive and loving father, buy clothes for their children, assist the mother directly, or assist in any emergencies or unexpected expenses. The child support caseworkers, or judges in their prosecution of law, do not regard these expenditures, if that same man is not able to or refuses to meet the financial requirements of the court order. For, these extra expenditures are considered gifts, not support.

Anybody with common sense knows that specific monthly monetary contributions, cannot supply a growing child with all of the incidental financial needs a child needs throughout a lifetime. And the modern laws instituting child support has invoked more animosity and hostility, between all parties involved than it has removed.

Men are afraid to admit, they have a natural subconscious yearning to reproduce and women are afraid to discuss their overpowering and natural innate connections to motherhood.

It’s not the control of birth, but the control of us.

We shouldn’t be at odds with sex and birth. Something as simple as this archaic idea revisited, may put Black people on the cutting edge of a social revolution.[/B]


Peace,

Sun Ship

This has turned into a very deep discussion. So, sounds like there's more to sex than just satisfying natural biological urges. As well, there's some common sense and compassion required and hopefully applied before a sexual relationship takes place. What lies in the subconcious and concsious minds of men and women when they are sexually attracted to each other? If they want each other sexually, should they spend more time talking about how they feel about sex and birth first before they physically consummate the relationship? Maybe if they did, people won't be so quick to unzip or pull down.

Thank you Brother Sun Ship for the deeper inspection of this topic.

Peace,
Queenie

Brother Sun Ship ... you need this image right here ... :teach: ... it represents a teacher providing solutions to all that hear ... i knew you'd not disappoint us! :)

I think we could come up with some questions ... let's call them ... MMQA's ... Minimum Mandatory Questions Answered / Asked. We must come up with what questions should be included in the MMQA leaflet. These questions must be as generic as possible, because we have to cover as many of our folk as we can. Also, "minimum" is in our name, so we gotta keep it brief.

We could have MMQA Categories! So there could be questions and answers regarding sex, marriage, children, jobs, education, religion, whatever we want. Hmmm, i'm thinking now, but what if we have a maximum of 10 questions for each "topic." The 10 questions could change, if agreed on by the majority, as time does change things.

Okay, for example, What are the MMQA - B 4 Having Sex?

1. Are you disease free?
2. Do you want children?
3. Are we just having fun?

Get the picture? Here's another example ...

What are the MMQA - if you don't want to get caught up in child support courts?

1. Do you want to spend the rest of your life and money on this person?
2. Can you handle the court system taking your money?
3. If you're not working, you'll go to jail and that's kewl, right?

These are all Questions Asked and hopefully answered by all involved. Questions that come from our own unique perspective, as it is like none other. Answers may vary. We may want to visit that other topic, "all of our stuff laid out on the table," prior to moving too far forward.

We can begin a social movement of (usually poor folk) Black folk in general, who are trying to find a way to deal with our current situation as it regards our children growing up in poverty, and implement solutions so that it all ends now, with this current generation.

I understand and share the concern for Black Men, Women and Children, having to go to other folk to solve their problems. Problems the other folk created, and when they finish solving it, a Brother is locked up, a Black Child is Fatherless, and a Sister has the weight of the world on her shoulders. How do we get past this Brother Sun Ship, there is just so much pain.

I propose the MMQA's. If we work on providing the questions that should be answered, prior to the decision of having sex is made, we may positively influence a life. We can encourage the pregnant young Mother, expecting teenage Father, child support already past due, court case pending ... we could provide a set of MMQA's on how to process this trying situation properly.

The MMQA's will allow us to be very frank, blunt, to the point ... long before anyone is intoxicated with passion! :) Everyone can take part in the creation of the "10 MMQA" ... so our teens can add their discussion, suggestions, etc., along with the elders, and everyone in between. Then we vote on the top 10. We'd go into situations with these questions, armed and ready for and with a response. No response should mean they are not quite ready for a relationship with you!

The combination of Brothers yearning to reproduce and Sisters being rich and fertile, is a beautiful thing. Let us control it, and not it control us.

Can a young couple meet, agree on things regarding their future, such as ... "While we are on good terms, we would like to establish levels of support (not limited to, financial, emotional, spiritual, etc.) expected and required by both parents of our child, yet to be conceived." ... Would such an agreement stand up in court? :)

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom in this community Brother Sun Ship.

Much Love and Peace.

:heart:

Destee

Sun Ship,

Wonderfully stated. Thank you!